Wow!  Thanks man for the personal info.  I too, am a returned
missionarywith...uh...more far out points of view.  "Early Mormonism
and theMagical World View" clearly suggests that Joseph Smith was
functioningwithin a global "developmental effort".  I've more or
less hitched mywagon to Sufism and/or Tantric Buddhism.  I would
love to compare noteswith you.  I live in Dallas, where are you?
Hope to hear from you soon.

Kenneth Shaw-

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Just a quickie reply. I plan a more substantial one, when I get home. I perused the deoxy site a while back. I'll ge check it again, as they are making some big improvements. The site is now nearly as commendable as MkzdK. I had a little trouble with the link you gave. Here is a link to a Netscape enhanced page on the site. A little digging around on that sight will definitely pay off. http://www.deoxy.org/deoxy.htm I'll also check the Crowley site out, when I get home. I want to hear the music! more later... proclus

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Mike,Much to my embarrassment, my first attempt to write to you got lostin a disk accident. You would think that I would know better. Almost as good as the time that I made the Service Departmentdatabase at Mike's Famous Harley-Davidson (in Wilmington, DE noless!) go away. My job allows me much opportunity to amplify nyerrors! Don't worry, though. I had a backup of Mike's Famousservice and was able to make it come back.Kathleen is sending a Christmas letter with all the chatty stuff,so I will dive right into the fun part. I got a call from SlickRick on Friday night. All the way from Hungary! Against all odds(but fitting nicely with a Tarot reading I gave him before he left)Rick has managed to find himself a girlfriend in Hungary. He isdoing well and expects to be home in February. Next week he isworking on a USO show featuring the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Some guys have all the luck! Rick recommended an album to me,"October Rust" by Type O Negative. Have you heard of these guys? Nothing at all subtle about their paganism. Very Druid/Wiccan. They sound like a cross between NIN and Sisters of Mercy. I boughtthe album yesterday and absolutely fell in love with these guys. Very dark, very moody, very powerful. They refer to themselves as"The Drab Four."Now for some responses to you recent e-mail offerings. I like theidea of a discussion group of "Mutated RM's." I must find the"Superior Mutant" button that the Church of the Subgenuis sold meand affix it to my favorite hat, right next to the "Sin Boldly"button. I find it fascinating to look at those who had a sort ofa common start with me (even in the same Mission!) and see wherethey ended up. BTW, just what was the Scranton Conspiracy and whydid I never hear of it? All I heard of was the Hazleton Horror (anElder being seduced by a coven of witches...one of whom I laterbaptized). It sounds like Ken has some fascinating stories totell.A note to Ken (I suspect that Mike will be forwarding this to you): Mike and I were companions in the Philly mission. The stories Icould tell of Mike! He is, in short, responsible for getting mestarted on my path to paganism and other evils. He is also theonly Elder from the old mission days that I keep in touch with. The "Slick Rick" mentioned above finished what Mike started,introducing me to Wicca, Lysergic Acid Di-something- or-another, andother evils that I will not reveal even to Mike.Regarding your exchange about having a "sense of history" due tobeing "Nth generation LDS", I guess a lot of it was lost on me. Were I to whip my lineage out of my pants, I could compare withboth of you. My 4th great grandfather, Alexander McCrae, was inLiberty Jail with Joseph Smith. Sections 121 and 122 of the D&Cwere written in his hand. Yet this and other family ties did nothave any bearing on my choice to leave the church or my currentattitude about it. But I do recognize my ancestors as havingendured hardships that have paved the way for folk of my ilk tohold odd beliefs and worship in unorthodox manners without fear ofpersecution, and for this I am grateful. Seen from that point ofview, I almost owe it to the memory of Alex McCrae to leave thetraditions of my fathers and strike out in new directions, much ashe did.I love the comment about Wicca being "conscious art." If Ken hadever stopped by the Cafe Haven in Orem, he would have been in theheart and soul of the Utah County pagan community (as well as thelocal lesbian cabal). But I am willing to guess that he left Provobefore the Cafe opened. Too bad. Yes, Wicca is conscious art inmost respects. It is rather fun to take responsibility forcreating one's own rituals. They often end up having a rathercomical or stilted element to them as a result. But this alsotends to drag you out of yourself, beyond your normal bounds. Thisis good. Don't let the home brew nature of Wicca fool you intodenying the power of the religion. After all my years of lookingfor the "Witness of the Spirit" that is the holy grail ofMormonism, I only found it for myself after casting a circle witha small group of friends and worshipping the Goddess in the bosomof Mount Timpanogos. I was expecting nothing from this experience("do not lust of results") but came away from it feeling as if Iwas walking 13 inches above the ground looking at the world thru anew set of eyes. It was an experience that I will never forget. It is also an experience that was repeated, again with no suchexpectations on my part, when the same circle of friends gathered9 months later to worship Her again.Stepping back off my soap box, I took Ken's comment at once to bean astute observation and a compliment of sorts. Thanks.I am not currently limiting myself to Wicca. After these manyyears of incorporating bits and pieces of Golden Dawn practice andphilosophy into my own bag of tricks, I am embarking on a moreformal pursuit. I recently acquired "Self Initiation into theGolden Dawn Tradition" by the Cicero's. After a hard look at thebook, mulling it over and a few conversations with Kathleen, I havedecided to follow the program they outline in the book. I am eventoying with the idea of contacting Regardie's (or Hyatt's, orwhoever's) group in Arizona and seeing what would be involved ingoing down there for a "real" initiation. I will also be feelingout Rick on the matter, as there is an outside chance that he mayjoin me in this endeavor. He would make a good working partner.I must go now. There is a snowstorm to enjoy upstairs, and muchelse to get done today. If Ken, or other unsuspecting victims,really want to pursue some sort of a discussion with us about allthis weirdness, let me know. Ken sounds like a cool dude. If hewants to exchange personal histories so we can get a better feelfor each other before diving into the muck and mire, let me knowand I will whip something up.And lastly, Robin from the good old days of Prodigy is now livingin Salt Lake. We have been visiting with her off and on. Be thouwarned that she will soon be hitting you web site. If you want tohook up with the old Prodigy gang, she will be the person to talkto. Remember Matt Begin from that gang? He died last year. AndCharlie is heading downhill fast enough that I doubt he will makeit thru 1997. Later. -AJ

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I was happy to receive your note. There are so many browsing, and sofew working the web. I hope to have more correspondance with you soon(I am at work right now). I'm sure that you will detect the influenceof Gurdieff on what I have done with my site. I have forwarded yournote to a former mission companion who is also in the same bark, so tospeak. While I have remained nominally mormon, he has become somethingof a pagan priest. I'd join his circle, but he's in Provo. I'm inBoston.Meanwhile, you can enjoy my currently favorite "global developmentaleffort" at;http://www.envirolink.org/mkzdk/It's very cool. My son and I have been slowly and relentlesslydevouring it. proclus Ken Shaw wrote: > > Wow! Thanks man for the personal info. I too, am a returned missionary > with...uh...more far out points of view. "Early Mormonism and the > Magical World View" clearly suggests that Joseph Smith was functioning > within a global "developmental effort". I've more or less hitched my > wagon to Sufism and/or Tantric Buddhism. I would love to compare notes > with you. I live in Dallas, where are you? > Hope to hear from you soon. > Kenneth Shaw

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Proclus,Thanks for getting back with me so soon, I'm at work myself, My home address is:AryaHerne@aol.comIt would be great to talk out some of the emotional issues I still have around my relationship with the Church, and how you're dealing with it, if you have amind to do so. It sure makes me happy to know that I'm not alone in this space.May all beings be happy, Ken

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I have been keeping up with the stuff you have been forwarding, for which Ithank you. I am silent so far because of lack of time and nothing costructiveto say at this time. Keep sending them my way.As for Type O Negative, I am preparing a tape for you. Expect it latter halfof January, as I know it will take me a while to get my poop in a troop and getit off to you. As for your question "Who is NIN?"......you have got to bekidding. NIN=Nine Inch Nails, demon child of the tortured mind of TrentReznor. EVERYONE knows who NIN is! NIN was even mentioned on THE SIMPSONS. Iwill be sending you a tape of the defining NIN album, "Pretty Hate Machine." If you saw the film THE CROW (the first one) it had an awful lot of NIN in it.Time to quit screwing around with e-mail and do what they are paying me the bigbucks for. Take care!

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> I have been keeping up with the stuff you have been forwarding, for which I > thank you. I am silent so far because of lack of time and nothing costructive > to say at this time. Keep sending them my way. > > As for Type O Negative, I am preparing a tape for you. Expect it latter half > of January, as I know it will take me a while to get my poop in a troop and get > it off to you. As for your question "Who is NIN?"......you have got to be > kidding. NIN=Nine Inch Nails, demon child of the tortured mind of Trent > Reznor. EVERYONE knows who NIN is! NIN was even mentioned on THE SIMPSONS. I > will be sending you a tape of the defining NIN album, "Pretty Hate Machine." > If you saw the film THE CROW (the first one) it had an awful lot of NIN in it. > > Time to quit screwing around with e-mail and do what they are paying me the big > bucks for. Take care! Aah, the Crow; I didn't know that! Great, I loved that music, and Ilook forward to hearing the tape. BTW, we don't watch the Simpsons, or any other shitcom. If you willallow me to pontificate, I consider them as part of the force which isdegrading society. Every sitcom character I have ever seen was a poorexample, and I would be horrified if my kids ever emulated any one ofthem. Yet, they are glorified, and showered with millions. It is worsethan professional sports, which is darned pretty bad. Despite this,some of the most decent people I know, and good friends watch both. Anyhow, I'll get off my high horse now, and please consider the source! proclus, the sourcethe protector of civilized society ;^}.

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Here's another attempt at a catchy phrase; If your name is not Ricky, you should contact us.We maybe could include some material about how the mission worthinesscriteria is now much stricter, such that, if you have serious sins inyour past, you might not get to go. Is this an attempt by the Church toget a little more control over what people like us. Just imagine ifproclus, Andy, or Ken had never got to go on a mission. I was 23 when Ileft, 'cause my bishop was so worried. Can we develop a mutant profile?Are we a dying breed? proclus

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I have not had time to give a decent reply to any of your recent mail. But Idid want to check in with you and let you know what is up.I --FINALLY-- got a chance to listen to the tapes that you sent me atChristmas. I enjoyed them both. Your talents as a musician continue toimprove. I especially liked the jazz/ambient selections. The Sunstone tapewas a real kick in the ass. I loved it! I had the misfortune of having tolisten to it while doing some c programming for work, so I really need tolisten to it again and pick up the details. There were some parts where I hadto stop the tape, grab Kathleen and make her listen.Kathleen is out of town for the week, leaving me time to catch up on manythings. One thing I will be doing is staying after work next Saturday andburning up by web browser looking up all the references you have sent my way. Keep the good stuff coming.And finally, went to the Hansen Planetarium last Friday to see "Laser RUSH." It was a trip. Next time you are in Gommorah, put it on your list of things todo.

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I have not had time to give a decent reply to any of your recent mail. But I did want to check in with you and let you know what is up.G reat, I hope you don't mind that I broadcast your message. I want tokeep things going, even though we appear to have lost Ken. He droppedoff the earth, as his aol account is gone, and messages at his workplacedon't seem to be getting through either. I hope he is well. Ourexperience with Ken indicates that we must go forward with the plans forthis discussion group. I anxiously await everyone's input on the webpages. Are they too irreverent? not irreverent enough? Are theyirrelevant? not irrelevant enough? ;-} Make your own version, withNetscape Gold 3.0 (it's freely available), or pass your complaints on tome. We can group discuss them. I plan to post the archive of ourdiscussion with Ken as well. I hope he tunes back in, so I can get hisfeed back on what he thinks is too personal. Anyway, I'd include linksso that people could reply to the group or to the individual. You'llsee what I mean, when I get a chance to do it. > I --FINALLY-- got a chance to listen to the tapes that you sent me at > Christmas. I enjoyed them both. Your talents as a musician continue to > improve. I especially liked the jazz/ambient selections. Thanx! Brian is passing a copy of it onto a friend who got interestedin it. I some of my best new stuff is not on the tape at all. You canonly fit so much stuff into so much time. I'm debating whether or notto release another tape next year. It is alot of work. I may go for ashorter format, EP length. Res Rockets is planning a major release thisyear, so if I am extremely lucky, I may get some royalties. I'm cookingup some plans for a web band of my own too. Everthing takes time, and Idon't have enough. I hope I don't get scooped! Meanwhile, I'd like tograduate soon too... >The Sunstone tape > was a real kick in the ass. I loved it! I had the misfortune of having to > listen to it while doing some c programming for work, so I really need to > listen to it again and pick up the details. There were some parts where I had > to stop the tape, grab Kathleen and make her listen. I was hoping that you would like it. At the conference, there weren'ttoo many people in that session, as there was another poor persecutedhistorian pouring out her soul in the other room. I tried to dominatethe question and answer time. Maybe the poor italien fellow thought Iwas rude! It was great. > Kathleen is out of town for the week, leaving me time to catch up on many > things. One thing I will be doing is staying after work next Saturday and > burning up by web browser looking up all the references you have sent my way. > Keep the good stuff coming. > And finally, went to the Hansen Planetarium last Friday to see "Laser RUSH." > It was a trip. Next time you are in Gommorah, put it on your list of things to > do.

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Funny coincidence. Just as I was preparing to broadcast another editionof Conspiracy Nation to you all, I heard on public radio;"ADM, supermarket to the world"ADM is, of course the subject of this CN! I consider this an excellentissue. I only broadcast the best ones in my opinion. I hope you don'tconsider this as clutter. Just let me know, if you don't like thisstuff. proclus

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A couple of sites for you to check out: www.thelema.net/contents.html > and deoxy.org/learyraw.html You guessed it: Crowley, Leary and > Wilson. Speaking of Leary, I have chosen for the motto of my little corner of > the Bell+Howell kingdom (Knowledge Engineer) the slogan "Just say Know" ... a > rip off of one of Leary's quotes. For me Wilson was instrumental. I discovered my vocation while readingCosmic Trigger on my mission. That day my post mission life opened upbefore me. I knew I would have allies. Of course, that was then, thisis now. Do you think we should give links to theCrowley/Wilson/Leary/McKenna... (and on and on) sites? How do we tie itin? Is it still relevant? BTW, I am still looking forward to cruisingthe thelema site with midi enabled. I have definitely not lost interestin this stuff. I still keep Gems from the Equinox by my bedside. I'mjust wondering how we might tie it in with the mutant RM stuff on apossible website. > > Now, back to some of our past mutant discussions. A couple of weeks > ago I was doing some computer work for a local bank officer. He was telling me > what a change had come over his son, going from an absolute hellion to a very > successful missionary. I ran past him part of our discussion about the pro's > and con's of raising the bar for mission worthiness. He agreed with me that > under the higher standards his son would not have been accepted for mission > service. But he also agrees that some of the energy that made his son such a > hell raiser is now helping to make him such a great missionary. It is all a > matter of where the power is channeled. That makes sense to me. It's the convert ethos. You know, we are toldthat we are a supposed to be converts, and converts are held up to us asexamples of devotion. It is not hard to see this as a fact in manyconvert's lives. So isn't a returned prodigal a kind of convert. Ican't imagine that such a being wouldn't take some of that convert zealwith him as a young missionary. That is why I question the Church's(the Lord's) motives on this one. There must be some over-riding reasonnot to let these boys out into the missionary field anymore, like whatthey might do when they get back, or some strange influence that theyhave on their straight arrow comrades. > I did not of course have the heart to tell this man that it was bad > news for me that his son had gone on a mission: the kid had been my source for > Acid. Oh well.You crack me up, Andy. > And now for something totally unrelated: Look out for Neil Peart's book > "The Masked Rider" due to hit the bookshelves this spring. > > -AJ I wonder what he'll have to say. If it's as good as his drumming andlyrics, then we'll have a gem. proclus

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> >Are you using Netscape? That's a frames page. If you are not using a >frames enabled browser, you should try this link. > >http://www.rose.brandeis.edu/users/love/mutant.html >>There may have been a network glitch. You might want to try looking at >it again. Internet problems like that get fixed pretty quick. > >proclus We are (alas) using MicroSloth Exploiter (or Exploder, Expunger...whateverthey call it). I'll check out that other link today and see whathappens.BTW way, picture this pre- mission interview, keeping in mind the newtougherworthiness standard."It's not that we doubt the sincerity of your repentance, Alma [theyounger],or the veracity of your conversion. But the church has seen the wisdomofplacing its trust in those who showed the ability to keep out of troublein thefirst place. Perhaps you and those sons of Heleman should just getmarried,persue your educations, and find a different way of serving the Lord." -AJ

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> >Are you using Netscape? That's a frames page. If you are not using a >frames enabled browser, you should try this link. >>http://www.rose.brandeis.edu/users/love/mutant.html> >There may have been a network glitch. You might want to try looking at >it again. Internet problems like that get fixed pretty quick. > >proclus We are (alas) using MicroSloth Exploiter (or Exploder, Expunger... whateverthey call it). I'll check out that other link today and see what happens.BTW way, picture this pre- mission interview, keeping in mind the new tougherworthiness standard."It's not that we doubt the sincerity of your repentance, Alma [the younger],or the veracity of your conversion. But the church has seen the wisdom ofplacing its trust in those who showed the ability to keep out of trouble in thefirst place. Perhaps you and those sons of Heleman should just get married,persue your educations, and find a different way of serving the Lord." -AJ

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> "It's not that we doubt the sincerity of your repentance, Alma [the > younger], > or the veracity of your conversion. But the church has seen the wisdom > of > placing its trust in those who showed the ability to keep out of trouble > in the > first place. Perhaps you and those sons of Heleman should just get > married, > persue your educations, and find a different way of serving the Lord." > > -AJ Andy, you crack me up. I can't imagine that this episode was notdiscussed when the decision was made. That's what makes me think thatthere is something else going on, a "greater good", if you will.BTW, sorry 'bout that previous mailing, which had the wrong stuff in the"reply to" field. If you replied to it your mail probably got bounced. proclus

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Finally, I have a copy of the book that I have been waiting for yearsfor, Leary's The Game Of Life. I've had a copy kicking around for 3 or 4 years now. Never had a chance tolook at it. I guess I'll have to look at it now so I can dream up som suitableharrasments for you. > My esoterics have been getting rusty of >late, so I am looking forward to brushing up with this book. I ordered >a few others from Falcon for my birthday, but this one is the star by >far. > >How are you guys? Just got back from 1 week of vacation. Playing catch-up at work. Did somethinking, meditating, planning in the sun of California. Finished reading"Magick Without Tears" and cruised through "Neuropolitique". The 2 books hadsome interesting common threads.I'll have to update you later on some interesting shit that has been going downon this end. The Holy Guardian Angel gave me a recent swift kick in the assand it is going to be resulting soon in .....something (don't quite know whatyet!). > Things are fine here. I'm swamped with grad work and >ResRockets, but I find time for outside reading at lunch time. > >Gotta go, seeyers laters. > >proclus

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At long last, I have created a home on the web for mutant RM's. >Submissions are welcome. Visit the site at > Saw it. Loved it. Will give it the attention it deserves sometime in the faroff nebulous future. -AJ

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Wow! Thanks man for the personal info. I too, am a returned missionarywith...uh...more far out points of view. "Early Mormonism and theMagical World View" clearly suggests that Joseph Smith was functioningwithin a global "developmental effort". I've more or less hitched mywagon to Sufism and/or Tantric Buddhism. I would love to compare noteswith you. I live in Dallas, where are you?Hope to hear from you soon. Kenneth Shaw-

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Mike,Much to my embarrassment, my first attempt to write to you got lostin a disk accident. You would think that I would know better. Almost as good as the time that I made the Service Departmentdatabase at Mike's Famous Harley-Davidson (in Wilmington, DE noless!) go away. My job allows me much opportunity to amplify nyerrors! Don't worry, though. I had a backup of Mike's Famousservice and was able to make it come back.Kathleen is sending a Christmas letter with all the chatty stuff,so I will dive right into the fun part. I got a call from SlickRick on Friday night. All the way from Hungary! Against all odds(but fitting nicely with a Tarot reading I gave him before he left)Rick has managed to find himself a girlfriend in Hungary. He isdoing well and expects to be home in February. Next week he isworking on a USO show featuring the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Some guys have all the luck! Rick recommended an album to me,"October Rust" by Type O Negative. Have you heard of these guys? Nothing at all subtle about their paganism. Very Druid/Wiccan. They sound like a cross between NIN and Sisters of Mercy. I boughtthe album yesterday and absolutely fell in love with these guys. Very dark, very moody, very powerful. They refer to themselves as"The Drab Four."Now for some responses to you recent e-mail offerings. I like theidea of a discussion group of "Mutated RM's." I must find the"Superior Mutant" button that the Church of the Subgenuis sold meand affix it to my favorite hat, right next to the "Sin Boldly"button. I find it fascinating to look at those who had a sort ofa common start with me (even in the same Mission!) and see wherethey ended up. BTW, just what was the Scranton Conspiracy and whydid I never hear of it? All I heard of was the Hazleton Horror (anElder being seduced by a coven of witches...one of whom I laterbaptized). It sounds like Ken has some fascinating stories totell.A note to Ken (I suspect that Mike will be forwarding this to you): Mike and I were companions in the Philly mission. The stories Icould tell of Mike! He is, in short, responsible for getting mestarted on my path to paganism and other evils. He is also theonly Elder from the old mission days that I keep in touch with. The "Slick Rick" mentioned above finished what Mike started,introducing me to Wicca, Lysergic Acid Di-something- or-another, andother evils that I will not reveal even to Mike.Regarding your exchange about having a "sense of history" due tobeing "Nth generation LDS", I guess a lot of it was lost on me. Were I to whip my lineage out of my pants, I could compare withboth of you. My 4th great grandfather, Alexander McCrae, was inLiberty Jail with Joseph Smith. Sections 121 and 122 of the D&Cwere written in his hand. Yet this and other family ties did nothave any bearing on my choice to leave the church or my currentattitude about it. But I do recognize my ancestors as havingendured hardships that have paved the way for folk of my ilk tohold odd beliefs and worship in unorthodox manners without fear ofpersecution, and for this I am grateful. Seen from that point ofview, I almost owe it to the memory of Alex McCrae to leave thetraditions of my fathers and strike out in new directions, much ashe did.I love the comment about Wicca being "conscious art." If Ken hadever stopped by the Cafe Haven in Orem, he would have been in theheart and soul of the Utah County pagan community (as well as thelocal lesbian cabal). But I am willing to guess that he left Provobefore the Cafe opened. Too bad. Yes, Wicca is conscious art inmost respects. It is rather fun to take responsibility forcreating one's own rituals. They often end up having a rathercomical or stilted element to them as a result. But this alsotends to drag you out of yourself, beyond your normal bounds. Thisis good. Don't let the home brew nature of Wicca fool you intodenying the power of the religion. After all my years of lookingfor the "Witness of the Spirit" that is the holy grail ofMormonism, I only found it for myself after casting a circle witha small group of friends and worshipping the Goddess in the bosomof Mount Timpanogos. I was expecting nothing from this experience("do not lust of results") but came away from it feeling as if Iwas walking 13 inches above the ground looking at the world thru anew set of eyes. It was an experience that I will never forget. It is also an experience that was repeated, again with no suchexpectations on my part, when the same circle of friends gathered9 months later to worship Her again.Stepping back off my soap box, I took Ken's comment at once to bean astute observation and a compliment of sorts. Thanks.I am not currently limiting myself to Wicca. After these manyyears of incorporating bits and pieces of Golden Dawn practice andphilosophy into my own bag of tricks, I am embarking on a moreformal pursuit. I recently acquired "Self Initiation into theGolden Dawn Tradition" by the Cicero's. After a hard look at thebook, mulling it over and a few conversations with Kathleen, I havedecided to follow the program they outline in the book. I am eventoying with the idea of contacting Regardie's (or Hyatt's, orwhoever's) group in Arizona and seeing what would be involved ingoing down there for a "real" initiation. I will also be feelingout Rick on the matter, as there is an outside chance that he mayjoin me in this endeavor. He would make a good working partner.I must go now. There is a snowstorm to enjoy upstairs, and muchelse to get done today. If Ken, or other unsuspecting victims,really want to pursue some sort of a discussion with us about allthis weirdness, let me know. Ken sounds like a cool dude. If hewants to exchange personal histories so we can get a better feelfor each other before diving into the muck and mire, let me knowand I will whip something up.And lastly, Robin from the good old days of Prodigy is now livingin Salt Lake. We have been visiting with her off and on. Be thouwarned that she will soon be hitting you web site. If you want tohook up with the old Prodigy gang, she will be the person to talkto. Remember Matt Begin from that gang? He died last year. AndCharlie is heading downhill fast enough that I doubt he will makeit thru 1997. Later. -AJ

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I was happy to receive your note. There are so many browsing, and sofew working the web. I hope to have more correspondance with you soon(I am at work right now). I'm sure that you will detect the influenceof Gurdieff on what I have done with my site. I have forwarded yournote to a former mission companion who is also in the same bark, so tospeak. While I have remained nominally mormon, he has become somethingof a pagan priest. I'd join his circle, but he's in Provo. I'm inBoston.Meanwhile, you can enjoy my currently favorite "global developmentaleffort" at;http://www.envirolink.org/mkzdk/It's very cool. My son and I have been slowly and relentlesslydevouring it. proclus Ken Shaw wrote: > > Wow! Thanks man for the personal info. I too, am a returned missionary > with...uh...more far out points of view. "Early Mormonism and the > Magical World View" clearly suggests that Joseph Smith was functioning > within a global "developmental effort". I've more or less hitched my > wagon to Sufism and/or Tantric Buddhism. I would love to compare notes > with you. I live in Dallas, where are you? > Hope to hear from you soon. > Kenneth Shaw

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Proclus,Thanks for getting back with me so soon, I'm at work myself, My home address is:AryaHerne@aol.comIt would be great to talk out some of the emotional issues I still have around my relationship with the Church, and how you're dealing with it, if you have amind to do so. It sure makes me happy to know that I'm not alone in this space. May all beings be happy, Ken

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I have been keeping up with the stuff you have been forwarding, for which Ithank you. I am silent so far because of lack of time and nothing costructiveto say at this time. Keep sending them my way.As for Type O Negative, I am preparing a tape for you. Expect it latter halfof January, as I know it will take me a while to get my poop in a troop and getit off to you. As for your question "Who is NIN?"......you have got to bekidding. NIN=Nine Inch Nails, demon child of the tortured mind of TrentReznor. EVERYONE knows who NIN is! NIN was even mentioned on THE SIMPSONS. Iwill be sending you a tape of the defining NIN album, "Pretty Hate Machine." If you saw the film THE CROW (the first one) it had an awful lot of NIN in it.Time to quit screwing around with e-mail and do what they are paying me the bigbucks for. Take care!

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> I have been keeping up with the stuff you have been forwarding, for which I > thank you. I am silent so far because of lack of time and nothing costructive > to say at this time. Keep sending them my way. > > As for Type O Negative, I am preparing a tape for you. Expect it latter half > of January, as I know it will take me a while to get my poop in a troop and get > it off to you. As for your question "Who is NIN?"......you have got to be > kidding. NIN=Nine Inch Nails, demon child of the tortured mind of Trent > Reznor. EVERYONE knows who NIN is! NIN was even mentioned on THE SIMPSONS. I > will be sending you a tape of the defining NIN album, "Pretty Hate Machine." > If you saw the film THE CROW (the first one) it had an awful lot of NIN in it. > > Time to quit screwing around with e-mail and do what they are paying me the big > bucks for. Take care! Aah, the Crow; I didn't know that! Great, I loved that music, and Ilook forward to hearing the tape. BTW, we don't watch the Simpsons, or any other shitcom. If you willallow me to pontificate, I consider them as part of the force which isdegrading society. Every sitcom character I have ever seen was a poorexample, and I would be horrified if my kids ever emulated any one ofthem. Yet, they are glorified, and showered with millions. It is worsethan professional sports, which is darned pretty bad. Despite this,some of the most decent people I know, and good friends watch both. Anyhow, I'll get off my high horse now, and please consider the source! proclus, the sourcethe protector of civilized society ;^}.

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Here's another attempt at a catchy phrase; If your name is not Ricky, you should contact us.We maybe could include some material about how the mission worthinesscriteria is now much stricter, such that, if you have serious sins inyour past, you might not get to go. Is this an attempt by the Church toget a little more control over what people like us. Just imagine ifproclus, Andy, or Ken had never got to go on a mission. I was 23 when Ileft, 'cause my bishop was so worried. Can we develop a mutant profile?Are we a dying breed? proclus

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I have not had time to give a decent reply to any of your recent mail. But Idid want to check in with you and let you know what is up.I --FINALLY-- got a chance to listen to the tapes that you sent me atChristmas. I enjoyed them both. Your talents as a musician continue toimprove. I especially liked the jazz/ambient selections. The Sunstone tapewas a real kick in the ass. I loved it! I had the misfortune of having tolisten to it while doing some c programming for work, so I really need tolisten to it again and pick up the details. There were some parts where I hadto stop the tape, grab Kathleen and make her listen.Kathleen is out of town for the week, leaving me time to catch up on manythings. One thing I will be doing is staying after work next Saturday andburning up by web browser looking up all the references you have sent my way. Keep the good stuff coming.And finally, went to the Hansen Planetarium last Friday to see "Laser RUSH." It was a trip. Next time you are in Gommorah, put it on your list of things todo.

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I have not had time to give a decent reply to any of your recent mail. But I > did want to check in with you and let you know what is up. Great, I hope you don't mind that I broadcast your message. I want tokeep things going, even though we appear to have lost Ken. He droppedoff the earth, as his aol account is gone, and messages at his workplacedon't seem to be getting through either. I hope he is well. Ourexperience with Ken indicates that we must go forward with the plans forthis discussion group. I anxiously await everyone's input on the webpages. Are they too irreverent? not irreverent enough? Are theyirrelevant? not irrelevant enough? ;-} Make your own version, withNetscape Gold 3.0 (it's freely available), or pass your complaints on tome. We can group discuss them. I plan to post the archive of ourdiscussion with Ken as well. I hope he tunes back in, so I can get hisfeed back on what he thinks is too personal. Anyway, I'd include linksso that people could reply to the group or to the individual. You'llsee what I mean, when I get a chance to do it. > I --FINALLY-- got a chance to listen to the tapes that you sent me at > Christmas. I enjoyed them both. Your talents as a musician continue to > improve. I especially liked the jazz/ambient selections. Thanx! Brian is passing a copy of it onto a friend who got interestedin it. I some of my best new stuff is not on the tape at all. You canonly fit so much stuff into so much time. I'm debating whether or notto release another tape next year. It is alot of work. I may go for ashorter format, EP length. Res Rockets is planning a major release thisyear, so if I am extremely lucky, I may get some royalties. I'm cookingup some plans for a web band of my own too. Everthing takes time, and Idon't have enough. I hope I don't get scooped! Meanwhile, I'd like tograduate soon too... >The Sunstone tape > was a real kick in the ass. I loved it! I had the misfortune of having to > listen to it while doing some c programming for work, so I really need to > listen to it again and pick up the details. There were some parts where I had > to stop the tape, grab Kathleen and make her listen. I was hoping that you would like it. At the conference, there weren'ttoo many people in that session, as there was another poor persecutedhistorian pouring out her soul in the other room. I tried to dominatethe question and answer time. Maybe the poor italien fellow thought Iwas rude! It was great. > Kathleen is out of town for the week, leaving me time to catch up on many > things. One thing I will be doing is staying after work next Saturday and > burning up by web browser looking up all the references you have sent my way. > Keep the good stuff coming. I'm on a roll. You can rely on getting more. Let me know, if there are any problems with the links. I think I can work it out. > And finally, went to the Hansen Planetarium last Friday to see "Laser RUSH." > It was a trip. Next time you are in Gommorah, put it on your list of things to > do.

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Funny coincidence. Just as I was preparing to broadcast another editionof Conspiracy Nation to you all, I heard on public radio;"ADM, supermarket to the world"ADM is, of course the subject of this CN! I consider this an excellentissue. I only broadcast the best ones in my opinion. I hope you don'tconsider this as clutter. Just let me know, if you don't like thisstuff. proclus

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A couple of sites for you to check out: www.thelema.net/contents.html > and deoxy.org/learyraw.html You guessed it: Crowley, Leary and > Wilson. Speaking of Leary, I have chosen for the motto of my little corner of > the Bell+Howell kingdom (Knowledge Engineer) the slogan "Just say Know" ... a > rip off of one of Leary's quotes. For me Wilson was instrumental. I discovered my vocation while readingCosmic Trigger on my mission. That day my post mission life opened upbefore me. I knew I would have allies. Of course, that was then, thisis now. Do you think we should give links to theCrowley/Wilson/Leary/McKenna... (and on and on) sites? How do we tie itin? Is it still relevant? BTW, I am still looking forward to cruisingthe thelema site with midi enabled. I have definitely not lost interestin this stuff. I still keep Gems from the Equinox by my bedside. I'mjust wondering how we might tie it in with the mutant RM stuff on apossible website. > > Now, back to some of our past mutant discussions. A couple of weeks > ago I was doing some computer work for a local bank officer. He was telling me > what a change had come over his son, going from an absolute hellion to a very > successful missionary. I ran past him part of our discussion about the pro's > and con's of raising the bar for mission worthiness. He agreed with me that > under the higher standards his son would not have been accepted for mission > service. But he also agrees that some of the energy that made his son such a > hell raiser is now helping to make him such a great missionary. It is all a > matter of where the power is channeled. That makes sense to me. It's the convert ethos. You know, we are toldthat we are a supposed to be converts, and converts are held up to us asexamples of devotion. It is not hard to see this as a fact in manyconvert's lives. So isn't a returned prodigal a kind of convert. Ican't imagine that such a being wouldn't take some of that convert zealwith him as a young missionary. That is why I question the Church's(the Lord's) motives on this one. There must be some over-riding reasonnot to let these boys out into the missionary field anymore, like whatthey might do when they get back, or some strange influence that theyhave on their straight arrow comrades. > I did not of course have the heart to tell this man that it was bad > news for me that his son had gone on a mission: the kid had been my source for > Acid. Oh well.You crack me up, Andy. > And now for something totally unrelated: Look out for Neil Peart's book > "The Masked Rider" due to hit the bookshelves this spring. > > -AJ I wonder what he'll have to say. If it's as good as his drumming and lyrics, then we'll have a gem. proclus

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> >Are you using Netscape? That's a frames page. If you are not using a >frames enabled browser, you should try this link. >>http://www.rose.brandeis.edu/users/love/mutant.html >>There may have been a network glitch. You might want to try looking at >it again. Internet problems like that get fixed pretty quick. > >proclus We are (alas) using MicroSloth Exploiter (or Exploder, Expunger...whateverthey call it). I'll check out that other link today and see whathappens.BTW way, picture this pre- mission interview, keeping in mind the newtougherworthiness standard."It's not that we doubt the sincerity of your repentance, Alma [theyounger],or the veracity of your conversion. But the church has seen the wisdomofplacing its trust in those who showed the ability to keep out of troublein thefirst place. Perhaps you and those sons of Heleman should just getmarried,persue your educations, and find a different way of serving the Lord."-AJ

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> >Are you using Netscape? That's a frames page. If you are not using a >frames enabled browser, you should try this link. >>http://www.rose.brandeis.edu/users/love/mutant.html >>There may have been a network glitch. You might want to try looking at >it again. Internet problems like that get fixed pretty quick. > >proclus We are (alas) using MicroSloth Exploiter (or Exploder, Expunger... whateverthey call it). I'll check out that other link today and see what happens.BTW way, picture this pre- mission interview, keeping in mind the new tougherworthiness standard."It's not that we doubt the sincerity of your repentance, Alma [the younger],or the veracity of your conversion. But the church has seen the wisdom ofplacing its trust in those who showed the ability to keep out of trouble in thefirst place. Perhaps you and those sons of Heleman should just get married,persue your educations, and find a different way of serving the Lord."-AJ

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> "It's not that we doubt the sincerity of your repentance, Alma [the > younger], > or the veracity of your conversion. But the church has seen the wisdom > of > placing its trust in those who showed the ability to keep out of trouble > in the > first place. Perhaps you and those sons of Heleman should just get > married, > persue your educations, and find a different way of serving the Lord." > > -AJ Andy, you crack me up. I can't imagine that this episode was notdiscussed when the decision was made. That's what makes me think thatthere is something else going on, a "greater good", if you will.BTW, sorry 'bout that previous mailing, which had the wrong stuff in the"reply to" field. If you replied to it your mail probably got bounced. proclus

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Finally, I have a copy of the book that I have been waiting for years >for, Leary's The Game Of Life. I've had a copy kicking around for 3 or 4 years now. Never had a chance tolook at it. I guess I'll have to look at it now so I can dream up som suitableharrasments for you. > My esoterics have been getting rusty of >late, so I am looking forward to brushing up with this book. I ordered >a few others from Falcon for my birthday, but this one is the star by >far. > >How are you guys? Just got back from 1 week of vacation. Playing catch-up at work. Did somethinking, meditating, planning in the sun of California. Finished reading"Magick Without Tears" and cruised through "Neuropolitique". The 2 books hadsome interesting common threads.I'll have to update you later on some interesting shit that has been going downon this end. The Holy Guardian Angel gave me a recent swift kick in the assand it is going to be resulting soon in .....something (don't quite know whatyet!). > Things are fine here. I'm swamped with grad work and >ResRockets, but I find time for outside reading at lunch time. > >Gotta go, seeyers laters. > >proclus

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At long last, I have created a home on the web for mutant RM's. >Submissions are welcome. Visit the site at > >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/6443/ Saw it. Loved it. Will give it the attention it deserves sometime in the faroff nebulous future.-AJ

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Mike, I checked out both the Agreeting and demon addresses. The demon thing is cool, but I can see some of the links are still under construction. Yes I would like to see al of the Mutant discussion put there (OK, you can edit out the personal stuff). Speaking of the personal stuff, Slick Rick returns from his Bosnia duty tonight. I will be picking him up at the airport and driving him home. I am totally stoked to have the man back in town. A couple of sites for you to check out: www.thelema.net/contents.html and deoxy.org/learyraw.html You guessed it: Crowley, Leary and Wilson. Speaking of Leary, I have chosen for the motto of my little corner of the Bell+Howell kingdom (Knowledge Engineer) the slogan "Just say Know" ... a rip off of one of Leary's quotes. Now, back to some of our past mutant discussions. A couple of weeks ago I was doing some computer work for a local bank officer. He was telling me what a change had come over his son, going from an absolute hellion to a very successful missionary. I ran past him part of our discussion about the pro's and con's of raising the bar for mission worthiness. He agreed with me that under the higher standards his son would not have been accepted for mission service. But he also agrees that some of the energy that made his son such a hell raiser is now helping to make him such a great missionary. It is all a matter of where the power is channeled. I did not of course have the heart to tell this man that it was bad news for me that his son had gone on a mission: the kid had been my source for Acid. Oh well. And now for something totally unrelated: Look out for Neil Peart's book "The Masked Rider" due to hit the bookshelves this spring. -AJ

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Proclus, Thanks for getting back with me so soon, I'm at work myself, My home address is: AryaHerne@aol.com It would be great to talk out some of the emotional issues I still have around my relationship with the Church, and how you're dealing with it, if you have a mind to do so. It sure makes me happy to know that I'm not alone in this space. May all beings be happy, Ken

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AryaHerne@aol.com wrote: > > proclus, > Thanks again for getting back to me. I'm thinking that maybe the church > environment that you're in may be more easy going towards "intelectuals". > Utah is basicly in a state of siege. Many of my friends in the "Sunstone" > crowd > were excommunicated a couple of years ago. Whenever I go to church I find > myself aching to stand up for what Joseph really taught, and for what was > understood by those who where taught personally by him. Yes, I understand this about Utah. Here in the Belmont ward, the discussion and book club meetings are announced in the ward bulletin! I don't go, as I don't have time, but I did go the the last symposium though, and said hi to many ward members, including a councilor in the bishopric. Things are pretty good here. I don't think I'd have too many problems in Utah either. I'm allergic to dogma, and I'm pretty good at blending in. > Do you know the work of Henry Corbin? He writes things like"Ismaili Gnosis > and the Cycles of Time". In there he points out that Ismaili Imamology is an > extention > of Jewish-Christian (Ebionite) Adamology, in which there is a chain of Adams > going back through Eternity, and that our Father Adam was reincarnated in the > person of Jesus so that he could personally remedy the effects of the Fall. > Wow! > It's not a perfect fit, but close enough to throw new light on the AdamGod > Doctrine. Yes, I see the effects of morphogenic fields on souls as they incarnate. We are all images of each other, as well as God; hence, the parallels between Joseph Smith and Jesus, between Adam and Jesus, between Smith and Elijah, and so on. In the temple we ourselves walk in the footsteps of Adam, and Jesus as well. > There's no way in hell I could ever share this encouraging news in church. > I quess some of the attitudes of the "Mormon Fundamentalists" people I knew > rubbed off. Why should I have to sneek around? Why shouldn't we be able to > speak the simple truth? I get all wound up, because I see that many of the > problems in members lives would be solved by simply applying the principles > in > the the Doctrine and Coventants AS ORIGINALLY UNDERSTOOD...namely the > Law of Gathering and the Law of Consecration. Are we an enlightened minority? When I bring these things up with a friend of mine in Vermont, he reminds me of the commonly held belief in the Church that we will only progress as fast as the weakest of the saints. We are effectively living under a kind of spiritual law of consecration, but the discontent among us, like you and me, are also living a kind of virtual law of gathering. > In my own way, I'm trying to stay faithfull. In my own way, I'm trying to > continue > Josephs work. This I am glad to hear. > Sorry for the rant...I quess I still have alot of passion about this stuff. > > Hope to hear from you again soon, > Ken I am quite enjoying this dialog. I am still waiting to hear from Andy, and thinking about a new circle. I got an idea for a web page called "mutant return missionaries; a circle of wired brains". I've had a look around, and there doesn't seem to be anything like it out there. Let me know what you think about this, as I think the three of us may want to collaborate on this. Meanwhile, this little bit of amusement turned up during my meanderings; http://www.rainfrog.com/bill/mission.shtml You may find it somewhat resonant with our topic. proclus

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proclus, Thanks again for getting back to me. I'm thinking that maybe the church environment that you're in may be more easy going towards "intelectuals". Utah is basicly in a state of siege. Many of my friends in the "Sunstone" crowd were excommunicated a couple of years ago. Whenever I go to church I find myself aching to stand up for what Joseph really taught, and for what was understood by those who where taught personally by him. Do you know the work of Henry Corbin? He writes things like"Ismaili Gnosis and the Cycles of Time". In there he points out that Ismaili Imamology is an extention of Jewish-Christian (Ebionite) Adamology, in which there is a chain of Adams going back through Eternity, and that our Father Adam was reincarnated in the person of Jesus so that he could personally remedy the effects of the Fall. Wow! It's not a perfect fit, but close enough to throw new light on the AdamGod Doctrine. There's no way in hell I could ever share this encouraging news in church. I quess some of the attitudes of the "Mormon Fundamentalists" people I knew rubbed off. Why should I have to sneek around? Why shouldn't we be able to speak the simple truth? I get all wound up, because I see that many of the problems in members lives would be solved by simply applying the principles in the the Doctrine and Coventants AS ORIGINALLY UNDERSTOOD...namely the Law of Gathering and the Law of Consecration. In my own way, I'm trying to stay faithfull. In my own way, I'm trying to continue Josephs work. Sorry for the rant...I quess I still have alot of passion about this stuff. Hope to hear from you again soon, Ken

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> It would be great to talk out some of the emotional issues I still have around > my relationship with the Church, and how you're dealing with it, if you have a > mind to do so. It sure makes me happy to know that I'm not alone in this space. I am encouraged that I heard from someone so soon after indexing my page. I am curious to know how you found my personal statement. Also, I hope to create a kind of informal club of rm's that have mutated their brains. We could form a distributed community to address issues like the ones you raise. I have remained mormon because of my faith in mormonism. Mormonism to me has very little to do with a group of people, or a building of brick and stone. These things are incidental. Mormonism is a system of personal growth and development, an extropian christology. I have found that mormonism can encompass the most radical thought that I can think. These thoughts are not always encompassed by the group mind, or within rectilinear chambers made with human hands. It is ironic that a system of absolute freedom is managed by such a rigid bureaucracy, but the the church is a temporary necessity. I would be happy to discuss these issues with you. Many rm's who have faced the real implications of mormonism have left the church. My very good friend and former missionary companion is one of these. I am looking forward to hearing his reaction to your first note. I think both types of rm's can co-exist in any eventual group that we form. BTW, I served in Pennsylvania, Philadelphia mission. Pennsylvania is also the cradle of my celtic, american heretage. So, I look forward to hearing from you. proclus > > May all beings be happy, > Ken

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proclus; I guess I was mulling over what you had to say about the Church. I've been doing some soul searching to evaluate the motives that have driven me this far. I'm probably more driven by history than you are, I actually feel some kind of loyalty to the past. It makes it more complicated that my family has been in Mormonism since the Kirtland period. As far as our family history reads, we didn't even enter reality until our ancestors were converted by Brigham Young in Canada. I feel like I'm ontologicaly Mormon. Sorry about the thunderous silence, you just stirred up feelings that I thought were long gone. Thanks brother, Ken

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>Are you aware that there is now netscape for OS/2? > >http://www.internet.ibm.com/browsers/netscape/warp/ > >Haven't heard from you in a while. How are things going? I sent a >little Christmas pack off to you yesterday. Let me know what you think. > >proclus I have been reading you recent offerings with rapt interest. But work has been hell and I have had no time to give them the responses that they deserve. I am blocking out some time to rectify this Wednesday or Thursday night. As for netscape for OS/2, yes I am interested, but..... The budget will not be allowing me to sign up with an ISP for a while, and my computer was just moved to the basement where there is no current phone connection. If Kathleen and I are able to make a reasonable dent in our current debts, this will change this summer. As part of moving my stuff to the basement, I ran accross some old treasures, some of which I will be sharing with you soon. Until later this week, seek slack.

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Kathleen and All, I can see from the server log that you and Andy are the only ones who looked at the Mutant RM submission at; http://www.rose.brandeis.edu/users/love/demon.html What did you guys think of it? Any comments or suggestions? We seem to have lost Ken. Is anyone else interested in this, or did Ken take the fire with him. I need help deciding which graphics scheme to use and how much of the discussion archives to include. (All of it?) proclus http://www.rose.brandeis.edu/users/love/Agreeting.html PS for Trent------------------------------------------ I'm looking forward to designing some experiments for my namesake. You don't need anything, but just tell me what you have... microscope? chem set?

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Here is the URL for "Joseph Smith: Halcyon". As soon as you read this article please let me know what you thought of it! Joseph as Solar Hero! Venus in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake Temple! http://www.homestar.net/osiris/halcyon.html Here is the URL for Lance Owens website with articles on Joseph the Hermetic Prophet, Joseph and Kabbalah and Joseph the Gnostic. Lance Owens is a physician from Salt Lake and Mormon who became a Gnostic preist and the best researcher into these aspects of Joseph. I have 3 tapes from Sunstone Symposium of him speaking on the 3 topics named above. If you want them I will send you copies. There is a search engine on Lances site. Just type in the words 'Joseph Smith' and it will pull up about 3 articles on the above named topics, including the one from Dialogue that Ken tried to upload to Mahonri-l. The search engine is under "The Gnosis Archive Index" http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ Now this next site is very important too: http://www.zianet.com/collier/ Go to Doctrines of the Preisthood to read excerpts from these articles. I was going to make photocopies of the following two articles for the magical study group and when I was looking over my copies of the articles the other day I noticed that Fred Collier, the publisher, said that if people keep making copies of his articles he will go out of business. Well I think he is too important a resource to let that happen so I want to respect that and HIGHLY encourage you and Joe and Ken to order these two articles. The Common Origin of the Ancient Hebrew/Pagan Religion and the Demise of the Hebrew Goddess This article is 52 pgs. and $3.00 The Matriarchal Priestesshood & Emma's Right to Succession as High Priestess & Queen This article is 19 pgs. and $2.50 The shipping and handling is $1.50 Collier's Publishing Company P.O. Box 1919 Silver City, New Mexico 88061 The second article has a lot of info about how Joseph Smith III's right to succeed ties in with all of this. This article is probably not what people think from the title. Fascinating perspective on the matriarchal preisthood and the succession controversy. A veiw no one has probably considered before. When you read the article it's not as radical as it looks. Actually it just seems to be a lot of common sense. Here is another resource I highly encourage you to read. This book is ONLY $5.00 ! It's called STONEHENGE AND DRUIDISM. http://www.bacnet.com/artisan.htm (It takes QUITE awhile for this page to load so don't think it's done loading til it's done loading) The Christian British Isreal people know that the Ancient Britons and Celts were at times Gods "Covenant people" in their pure form when they were righteous. That is what Britain means is 'Land of the Covenant' or something to this effect. I was trying to look in one of my books for the reference and I can't find it right now. Ties in with the Hebrew Goddess thing though I am sure if you think about it. But a good LDS companion volume to this which quotes the above book a bunch is "Whence Came They: Isreal, Britain and the Restoration" by Vaughn E. Hansen PHD. with a picture of Stonehenge on the front and a star of David. Of course then I could start getting into more puzzle pieces like the descendants of Christ and the Book Holy Blood, Holy Grail and stuff on Rennes Le Chateau but I don't want to get on any tangents. Just wanted to make a list of some of the books we have been talking about: "The Refiners Fire: The making of Mormon Cosmology 1644-1844" by John L. Brooke. This Discusses the Hermetic influences upon Joseph Smith and the theology of the LDS church. It seems people are starting to see the connections between these occult philosophies and things Joseph was involved with as well as theology but they are less certain about the cause and effect relationship. Brooke asks: "Are these relationships spanning centuries simply analogues, revealing but esssentially unconnected?" and then he goes on to list the reigning theories and explanations. All of which I am certain have some validity to them. I can't list them all here you will have to read the book. I think these intellectual explanations offer a partial answer but not a full answer. I would be a little more esoteric and chip in my theory and say if you combine it with the others it is probably as accurate as you are going to get. And that is simply when the Lord says that he "pours out his spirit" upon all flesh, usually to prepare them for something, he works by way of things like the collective unconcious, morphogenetic fields (you know Rupert Sheldrake as well as the 'Hundreth Monkey' syndrome) and things like MEMES. He pours out these thoughtforms over a long enough period of time and they become more and more embedded in our conciousness. So read the book and keep the supernatural explanations in mind and combine them with the intellectual ones. It's a great book! Other books we have mentioned are: Sarah the Priestess - Abrahams wife as High Preistess to Inanna in Egypt. The Hebrew Goddess - Mother was worshipped aloing with Father until around the Law of Moses. The White Goddess - I have heard this has info on the Hebrew Goddess as well. Was also a a major source for the article "Joseph Smith: Halcyon". I also have an article which I just sent to Ken and Steve and I will send a copy to Joe and Gaia as soon as I get copies of any tapes you may want made. The article is on Jewish shamanism. If any of you read any of this material please give me your feedback on it as soon as you do!!! I would appreciate it so much! Let me know if there is anything you would like added to this list! Beth Mormon priestess in training =)

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First, thanx Ken for the marvelous links, and I will certainly be adding them to the website. It has been a long time since we have heard from you. How are you doing? > Here is the URL for "Joseph Smith: Halcyon". As soon as you read this > article please let me know what you thought of it! Joseph as Solar Hero! > Venus in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake Temple! > > http://www.homestar.net/osiris/halcyon.html > That was a good one. It reminded me of a guy named Percy on my mission. He had the astrological significance of the Salt Lake Temple architecture all worked out. There is still much more to do in this area. Most members are not aware of any of this. > Here is the URL for Lance Owens website with articles on Joseph the > Hermetic Prophet, Joseph and Kabbalah and Joseph the Gnostic. Lance > Owens is a physician from Salt Lake and Mormon who became a Gnostic > preist and the best researcher into these aspects of Joseph. I have 3 > tapes from Sunstone Symposium of him speaking on the 3 topics named > above. If you want them I will send you copies. > > There is a search engine on Lances site. Just type in the words 'Joseph > Smith' and it will pull up about 3 articles on the above named topics, > including the one from Dialogue that Ken tried to upload to Mahonri-l. > > The search engine is under "The Gnosis Archive Index" > http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ > These articles are fascinating. I was especially impressed with the parallels that were drawn between the King Follet sermon and Zohar. I remember reading the Zohar years ago and thinking how strangly close to Mormon doctrine it seemed. It now seems that the Zohar and cabala were important sources for some of the prophet's most important teachings. The cabalistic nature of the temple rite was always plain to me (less so these days). These things have been known for quite some time actually. Andy may remember the guy in the Alpha Book Center in Phoenix. He was quick to point out the adam/god to adam qadmon parallel. Hats off to Lance for making these connections explicit. > Here is another resource I highly encourage you to read. This book is > ONLY $5.00 ! It's called STONEHENGE AND DRUIDISM. > > http://www.bacnet.com/artisan.htm (It takes QUITE awhile for this page > to load so don't think it's done loading til it's done loading) > > The Christian British Isreal people know that the Ancient Britons and > Celts were at times Gods "Covenant people" in their pure form when they > were righteous. > Look out... those british isreal people are true wing nuts! Everyone wants to be the covenant people you know. I am aware of a few cases where the "christian' legacy of the celts is merely the result of an over exercised scribe in some monastary. Those early catholics were quite the eager beavers. We need not christianize our heretage. I don't think that our ancestors would approve. ;-} > > Beth > Mormon priestess in training =) > I have to meet this Beth! I tried to subscribe to mahonri-l, but I never got a reply. Too bad. Looks interesting. Look for the website to be updated with these links and any related discussion within a few days. proclus

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Gotta love this. I have met both Lance Owens as well as Curt and Gail Porritt, as we share some common interests. At the time, Lance was asking some questions about Freemasonry.... Chokmah loves Binah! (^_^) SVB VMBRA ALARVM TVARVM, JSW

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MA>Todd J. Jumper wrote: MA>> MA>> Gaia said: MA>> MA>> "BTW, in case anyone here DOESN't know: MA>> the Ankh is an ancient Egyptian spiritual symbol composed of a very thin MA>> long, upright triangle surmounted by an oval, joined by a horizontal MA>> cross bar. The oval is a symbol of feminine power/ energy; the upright MA>> triangle is a symbol of male power/ energy; together they literally mean MA>> "Eternal Life." MA>> MA>> Yet another symbolic reiteration of the Sacred Marriage. MA>> Blessings - MA>> Gaia" MA>Enoch said: MA>> Interesting Gaia! This again reminds me of the symbol I was shown MA>> during meditative thought while I was with my fiance. MA>> MA>> http://eagle-net.org/enoch144/union.htm MA>> MA>> enoch mea.arbaim.arbaa MA>Jahnihah said: MA>Oh no; More kids for Todd and Carrie ! ;] MA>Can we talk about the Sun God thing more- I'm assuming that this MA>relates directly with the Temple of the Sun ( right ?) I hope so MA>'cuz I'm right in the middle of 'drawing' it out further than I had MA>previously. (pay attention Absalom, and Eleazer) MA>Ahman: Pronouned Ahhh (short 'A' vowel sound) MahhhN (with MA>the same short 'A' vowel sound). (Hebrew) Aleph, Mem, Nun. MA>The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost(s). All prayers sealed with the kiss MA>of the Eternal (w)Holyness of Life (again, thanks Joe Sampson) MA>Love and Peace, Jahnihah MA>lfisher@ponyexpress.net (remove 'SPANK' to reply)

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Joe, I've always been wearied by the anti-Illuminist hate-mongering of the racist-right. I pretty much follow the evidence suggesting that the Bavarian Illuminati were a functioning branch of esoteric Isma'ili Islam. This form of "gnostic" Islam my be pretty damn close to what Jesus himself was trying to set up in his day. Ken

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Joe, I've been distracted with fatherly duties as of late, so I probably missed your post on this important topic. I wonderful thong about Kabbalah is that it preserves the essence of the Old Israelite religion as it existed before the Babylonian captivity. There is evidence that Ezra worked as an agent of Cyrus' court to change Israelite religion to make it look more like Zoroastrianism and purge it of its old "polytheism" and "fertility rites". The Jewish followers of Jesus believed that he was restoring the pure Abrahamic Faith as well as the House of David. There was a tradition, held by those Jewish-Christians known as Ebionites, that Jesus produced an "inspired revision" of the Torah to correct the mutilation of the text commited by Ezra the Scribe. Since the Ebionite tradition eventually developed into Islam, and the mystics of Islam, known as the Sufis, transmited the Kabbalah to the Jews of Moslem Spain, it should be clear how Kabbalah is nothing other than the doctrine of Jesus himself. Sex and sexuality is the hearts-core of Orthodox Kabbalah, as well as Tantric Buddhism and Hinduism, and there is plenty of evidence that these traditions grew out of the common root of the Sumerian Temple Rites of the Hirosgamos. I'm personaly convinced that Joesph Smith was trying to introduce a sophisticated Tantric sexuality through the doctrines of "Celestial Marriage'. Kenneth Shaw

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Eleazar, This post is definatly a keeper. You express the essence of our predicament as "Brighamites". There is NO essential connection between the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the religious movement called "Mormonism". The only place where the "Church" shows up in the Book of Mormon prophecies is the briefest of mention in 3rd Nephi, where it is down-played as a minor incident in a greater drama. If we read 3rd Nephi as meaning what it says, we should all convert to Judaism right now and establish a Kibbutz on the Navaho reservation. (Actually........that idea may have some merit!) I think the Masonic governing bodies consider Mormonism to be "irregular Masonry", and, therfore, forbid cross-membership. Ken > From owner-mahonri-l@mail.cm2.com Tue Nov 11 13:09:20 1997 > X-Authentication-Warning: mail.cm2.com: mail set sender to owner-mahonri-l using -f > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:24:21 -0500 > From: Randall Shortridge > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Subject: Re: [mahonri-l] questions on Masonry > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=us-ascii> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-mahonri-l@mail.cm2.com > To: mahonri-l@mail.cm2.com > Reply-To: mahonri-l@troubador.com > Content-Length: 7724 > > Thanks for the info. But, do you know about the answers to the > questions I was asking about prohibiting memberships by LDS/masons and > later statements by BY, etc? > > Also, interesting that you say that Willard Richards gave quote on the > gospel being restoration of true masonry. Willard Richards was the only > person not wounded or killed at Carthage. Perhaps there is something to > this......the masons wouldn't kill a fellow brother who might have been > in on it? Interesting that Willard Richards was also the one who wrote > the official version of what happened, not John Taylor, who was wounded > and survived. Perhaps John could not see so much from his place beneath > the bunk? Or maybe something else? > > RLDS say that when Joseph Smith III went to SL on a trip digging into > things that he was threatened that "we might have to do the same thing > to you as your father." > > Maybe not.....maybe just another rumor. This is the problem....sorting > out the fact in history from the rumor. But, as I dig deeper into LDS > history, I am more and more disturbed at what I find. D. Michael Quinn > covers the Danites and their activities much in his Mormon Heirarchy > book. Disturbs me greatly. Sounds like "murder to get gain" as so well > described in the B of M. Everything from sneaking up behind and > slitting mens throats to sniping them from afar with a rifle. Don't > think I would feel too comfortable around these folks who are our > so-called "great early leaders" and prototypes. Exercising free agency > would not likely get you understanding, long-suffering, and > unconditional love, but would rather get you in big trouble or probably > killed. Just like today, only today you just get kicked out of the > (LDS) church, and your reputation besmurched (firsthand experience on > this) rather than killed. > > Many of the things that bother me are not disputed as having occurred in > history. Sometimes I wonder if David Whitmer was correct all along and > things were perverted from the beginning. But, we as Mormons want to > deify Joseph and we quote him endlessly as being as authorative as > Christ himself. Of course, Joseph appears to have renounced the Danites > while in Liberty jail. The beginning of his downfall perhaps? Hope > so. It would make things easier to understand. > > I am convinced that BY was more like David or Soloman rather than Elijah > or Moses. Don't think I would like to have lived under his iron fist. > You either lockstepped with the rest or you got into big trouble. Many > things about BY sound more like Lucifer to me than like the Savior. BY > was a very forceful fellow. > > Guess I should quit blaspheming the early leaders. Probably get me > outcast among this group of outcasts...... > > David Whitmer, where are you? > > Still struggling to understand why..... > Eleazar. > > > Ken Shaw wrote: > > > Eleazar, > > > > The early Brethren believed that Freemasonry was in some sense "the > > true > > religion". They could see a "Masonic" sub-text to the narrative of > > the > > Synoptic Gospels that made the POLITICAL significance of the mission > > of > > Jesus clear. The whole concept of the Theocratic Kingdom of God ruled > > by > > Joesph Smith and his blood heirs by right of their decent from Jesus, > > is > > an expression of the Masonic vision. > > > > I don't have it, but I have seen a letter (I think written by Willard > > Richards) > > in which he said that the Fullness of the Gospel is nothing other than > > the > > "Restoration of True Masonry". He then went on to describe the world > > as > > a great Masonic Hall with one officer in Old Jerusalem and another in > > New > > Jerusalem. > > > > Mormonism is clearly an explicit expression of the religious vision of > > > > Freemasonry. > > > > 1) The Kinghts Templar recieved Gnosis from the Isma'ilis and the > > Sufis, > > including the true meaning of the mission of Jesus and the continued > > existance of His legal heirs in the West. > > > > 2) The Pope wages war against the Templars because of the rumors of > > treason and heresy (sounds familiar). Grand Master DeMolay roasted to > > > > death on a spit but the main body of the Knights with their huge fleet > > > > and fabled treasure simply disapear with out a trace. > > > > 3)The Scottish king Robert the Bruce, freshly excommunicated by the > > Pope, > > is miraculously aided by heavy cavalry in a desperate battle against > > the > > English. > > > > 4) Scottish Rite Freemasonry appears in Scottland (logicly enough). > > > > 5) Expiditions from Scottland establish Nova Scotia with the > > intention > > of founding "a New Israel and a New Jerusalem". > > > > 6) Colonial Freemasonry wages war against the English and establishes > > a Masonic Reblublic. > > > > Regards, > > Ken Shaw > > > > > From owner-mahonri-l@mail.cm2.com Tue Nov 11 09:18:55 1997 > > > X-Authentication-Warning: mail.cm2.com: mail set sender to > > owner-mahonri-l using -f > > > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:34:11 -0500 > > > From: Randall Shortridge > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > Subject: [mahonri-l] questions on Masonry > > > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=us-ascii> > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Sender: owner-mahonri-l@mail.cm2.com > > > To: mahonri-l@mail.cm2.com > > > Reply-To: mahonri-l@troubador.com > > > Content-Length: 1431> > > > Well, since there is quite a bit of discussion on masonry, perhaps I > > can > > > ask a few naive questions which I've had for years...... > > > > > > I've understood that Masons did not allow (Utah) LDS to join the > > > organization until sometimes in the 1980's and that the LDS church > > at > > > one time did not look favorably on masonic membership even to the > > point > > > of excommunicating these, albeit not true today. > > > > > > 1. What is the basis of these things? Even though not true today, > > were > > > they true at one time? That is, did the masons not allow LDS in or > > visa > > > versa? Why was this so? > > > > > > 2. Did BY ever renounce mansonry? How about early leaders? > > > > > > 3. Was JS renounced by the national masonic organizations? Were > > the > > > Nauvoo Lodges have their charters revoked by the national > > organization? > > > > > > 4. Why is masonry secret? Is it sacred?......as stated by the > > church > > > in regards to the temple ceremony. Why the covenants to not reveal > > > things on the penalty of death? > > > > > > Thanks much, > > > Eleazar.

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GAIA: Well, hiya....is it the "Mormon Priestess in training" that is of interest? You know of course, that ALL LDS women who've been to the temple are, technically, Priestesses in training... yeah, guys, i know...harp, harp, harp ... Blessings Gaia

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> Gotta love this. I have met both Lance Owens as well as Curt and Gail > Porritt, as we share some common interests. At the time, Lance was asking > some questions about Freemasonry.... > > Chokmah loves Binah! (^_^) > > SVB VMBRA ALARVM TVARVM, > > JSW > > GAIA: > Well, hiya....is it the "Mormon Priestess in training" that is of > interest? You know of course, that ALL LDS women who've been to the > temple are, technically, Priestesses in training... yeah, guys, i > know...harp, harp, harp ... > Blessings > Gaia > Based on the "Re: Mormon magical study materials", which Beth posted, I would say that we have a shared common interest in the magickal side of Mormonism. I am also fascinated by the Wiccan parallels that have not been discussed yet. For example, prayer circle == circle dance, cross-referencing Starhawk's Spiral Dance with early Quinn papers. I did a series of posts on Prodigy, years ago, regarding this. Furthermore, the rite of encircling the alter is not limited to Wicca and Mormonism. There is much more that I could say regarding this, as Andy will remember. So, I would love to hear about your meeting with Lance, as I am fascinated by his writings. proclus Blessed Be

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> Ken Shaw wrote: > > > You might be interested in taking a look at the "The Sufis" by Idries Shah. > > > > He points out that the "witches" of the middle-ages did their circle-dance > > counter-clockwise around their leader, who was called the "Black Man". > > > > The counter-clockwise circling is used in circulambulating the Kabba in Mecca > > and the title "Black Man" is refering to a Moor. In near-eastern culture > > black symbolizes wisdom and comes from the arabic word khem (egypt), hense > > the word al-khemy (alchemy) which means literaly "black art". > > > > Please find a copy of the book "Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology", > > as it talks about the relationship between the secret practices of European > > Alchemy and the religious current that developed into Mormonism. > > > > The Gospel of Philip describes Jesus leading his deciples in a circle-dance > > which produces supernatural effects. > > > > European "witchcraft" was a SURVIVAL of original christianity...that's why > > it was persecuted! > > > > Kenneth Shaw > > Yes, but let's not forget the main point, that this circle dance relates > directly to the mormon prayer circle. Prayer circles existed outside the > temple for many years, and can be thought of as Mormon covens. ;-} > I will present more documentation of this, if it is required. > It is based on Quinn's earlier work. It is by no > means proven, but in light of Lance's papers, a proof would not be surprising. > > Let's consider some basics. Inside the circle (or near it) is an alter or a cauldron, > > denoting an offering. The four points of the compass are saluted. There is some > commerce with the other world. A pngt is sought. The Goddess is > revealed, Isis unveiled. These themes run throughout the Wiccan > literature, the gospel of phillip, the temple rite, and western magic > circle practices. > > Now, what is the connection with the Sufis, Ken? > > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 Proclus, Idries Shah makes a lucid argument that "witch" covens were Sufi groups practicing in hiding from the Catholic Church. The basic Dervish practice group is called a "halqa" which means "circle". Good work man. Ken

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ArtdeHoyos@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-11-14 18:10:26 EST, love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU writes: > > > Yes, but let's not forget the main point, that this circle dance relates > > directly to the mormon prayer circle. Prayer circles existed outside the > > temple for many years, and can be thought of as Mormon covens. ;-} > > I suggest it is more likely that Mormon temple prayer circles are related to > the circle formed in the Royal Arch degree, in which participants surround > the altar, make the signs of the degrees, join hands, and offer a prayer with > members repeating the words aloud in concert. > > If there is any *evidence* of contemporary pagan groups influencing the LDS > temple ritual, I should be happy to see it. > > ---Art deHoyos, 32, KCCH, KYCH > ======================================== > | Past Master and endowed life member, > | McAllen Lodge No. 1110, AF&AM of Texas; > | Board of Directors, Scottish Rite Research Society; > | Resource Team, Ritual Revision Committee, > | Supreme Council, 33, Southern Jurisdiction, > | Grand Archivist, Grand College of Rites; > | Ambassador-at-Large, San Antonio, TX, Valley, AASR; > | Class Director, Santa Fe, NM, Valley, AASR; > | Allied Masonic Degrees; > | York Rite College; > | Red Cross of Constantine; > | Royal Order of Scotland > ======================================== This is a fascinating revelation. As I said there is no proof of connection, but there are parallels. Anyone who has studied the groups I mentioned will have to face the fact that there are parallels between Wiccan, prayer circles, magic circles and the like. Someone with your credentials will appreciate the necessity of documentation. We find in a basic Wiccan text, Spiral Dance by Starhawk, a circle ritual which is essentially isomorphous with the mormon ritual. I may give the details, if it is requested, or better yet; look in Spiral and see for yourself. Is it a coincidence? a synchronicity? a connection? Clearly, we need a Lance Owens of Neo-paganism to make these connections explicit. It is likely that we share a common root with the neo-pagans. (I feel that we have more in common with them than with so-called christians.) It remains to be shown whether masonry is this common root. I'd expect that there is more to it than that, such as the influence of cabala. In your case as well, there is also merely a parallel. Less so, because you cannot even give us any documentation of the masonic circle rite (Or can you?). There is not any *evidence* that I am aware of that Joseph Smith was exposed to any degrees beyond the Blue Lodge degrees. proclus

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In a message dated 97-11-17 08:59:32 EST, love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU writes: > It is likely that we share a common root with the neo-pagans. (I feel that > we > have more in common with them than with so-called christians.) It remains > to be > shown whether masonry is this common root. I'd expect that there is more to > it > than that, such as the influence of cabala. I don't think there is any question that some modern neo-pagan and/or wiccan groups were influenced by Masonic ritual. As you likely know, Aidan A. Kelly's book _Crafting the Art of Magic. Book 1: A History of Modern Witchcraft 1939-1964_ (Minneapolis: Llewellyn, 1991) details Gerald Gardner's borrowings from Robert Graves, Aleister Crowley, the Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, etc. Some people are not satisfied with all of Kelly's work, but from what I know of Crowley, the Golden Dawn, and Freemasonry, and am basically satisfied. I am not saying this is true for *all* modern neo-pagan and/or wiccan groups, but it reinforces the need for solid research and documentation. The problem is that there is little tangible evidence for most occult theories regarding the origin of certain practices. On the other hand, we do have rather good information on the development of Masonic ritual from about 1696 onward. We can show a continual existance of ritual practice from this time forward. We have documents detailing both ritual information and membership activity. Such, unfortunately, is not the case with pagan groups that claim a continual existence from medieval times. > In your case as well, there is also merely a parallel. Less so, because you > cannot even give us any documentation of the masonic circle rite (Or can you? > ). > There is not any *evidence* that I am aware of that Joseph Smith was exposed > to > any degrees beyond the Blue Lodge degrees. I'm not sure if I follow you. Versions of the Royal Arch degree -- including the "prayer circle" -- were exposed repeatedly during Joseph Smith's lifetime, and in his home community. Joseph lived during the height of the anti-Masonic "Morgan" period, as well as near the epi-center. There were many books published during the 1820s & 1830s which exposed this information, and it was the topic of many newpapers. I don't see how he could have avoided it. As far as me not giving "any documentation of the masonic circle rite", what do you need? I am a Past High Priest of a Royal Arch Chapter, have conferred this degree myself and particited in its ceremonies countless times. I have studied original manuscripts a couple of hundred years old, as well as having read the old authorized printed texts. Certainly, I am not going to provide copies of any Masonic rituals to anyone, but it doesn't do any harm for me to admit that we have the "prayer circle" practice. Anyone who doubts my access to the original manuscripts needs only to exmaine my footnotes and bibliography in my article, "The Mystery of the Royal Arch Word," in _Heredom: The Transactions of the Scottish Rite Research Society_ vol. 2 (Washington, DC: 1993), pp. 7-34. ---Art deHoyos, 32, KCCH, KYCH

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> Brother Art! > > So good to see you here. Yes, I suggested this connection with the Royal > Arch Degree here, but I am afraid that the doctrine was not received very > well by this congregation. Not received well by this congregation? I'm surprised, since they *are* very good people. They also seem to be sincere. :-) > Art, have you noticed also that the Nauvoo Temple layout was patterned after > the RA? Even the Celestial Room was also called the Council Room, and HCK > describes the canvas partitions as the "veil of the first arch," etc. Have I noticed this??? You don't *really* think something that obvious would have been lost on me, do you? Not only this, but I believe I've discovered the "inspiration" for the architectural design of the Nauvoo temple (both inside and sound)...and it's something that attentive Freemasons would have been familiar with in Joseph's time! I'm not to eager to share it yet, because people have "borrowed" discoveries I've made in the past, and published them without giving me credit. We *might* discuss this privately though. :-) fraternal regards, ---Art deHoyos, 32, KCCH, KYCH

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> > Brother Art! > > > > So good to see you here. Yes, I suggested this connection with the Royal > > Arch Degree here, but I am afraid that the doctrine was not received very > > well by this congregation. > > Not received well by this congregation? I'm surprised, since they *are* very > good people. They also seem to be sincere. :-) > > > Art, have you noticed also that the Nauvoo Temple layout was patterned > after > > the RA? Even the Celestial Room was also called the Council Room, and HCK > > describes the canvas partitions as the "veil of the first arch," etc. > > Have I noticed this??? You don't *really* think something that obvious would > have been lost on me, do you? > OK, you smart alecy ruffians ;-}. I have an idea for shedding further light and knowledge on this subject. We should have graphics of the Nauvoo Temple layout on the website. Or a link to it, if it already exists out there on the web somewhere. I think that it is important to make the case regarding Royal Arch solid and publicly visible. Not enough people know about these things, people who *should* know. BTW, I've been interested in temple architecture for a long time. Even the newer temples betray an isomorphism with the cabalistic tree of life ;-}. I could dig out Percy Meyer's essay on SLC temple architecture, and get permisssion to post it. That may be hard though, as he was in his nineties when I was on my mission in '81. He was a councillor in the New York Stake presidency, and knew Heber J, Grant. That was before Percy turned 'apostate'. > I'm not to eager to share it yet, because people have "borrowed" discoveries > I've made in the past, and published them without giving me credit. We > *might* discuss this privately though. :-) I'm in academia myself (biochemistry), so I know how it feels to get scooped or cheated. Everyone gets credit for their ideas around here, but I understand your caution. proclus

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I've said before that "Mormon Fundamentalist" may have outlived it's usefullness as a catagory, and we need a more open-ended model so that we can take in the new developments of good scholarship. I've proposed the designation "Mormon Radical" in the true sense of "Radical" as "one who goes to the root". Luv ya' all, Ken Shaw

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___PROCLUS___ Mormon Radicals -- Has a nice ring. Should we rename the MutantRM's? I like the angle we have on RM's but I worry that there are not enough RM's out there to support a discussion group. ----- I REALLY like the ring of "Mormon Radicals" -- it accurately describes me! You might wish to prepare an FAQ that gives a kind of "mission statement" for the group, as a kind of general indicator to forum members what the group is all about. I don't want folks thinking that we are into blowing up Church buildings or threatening individual's personal safety. Warmest Regards, Joe Steve Swick III +++ +++++ +++++++ Everything within us and without us ought to stir our minds to admiration and wonder. We are a mystery encompassed with mysteries. -- Albert Pike

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Proclus: I just visited your page for the first time, and I have a question: are you associated with the HOGD or with BOTA? I of course noticed the graphics at the head of your page and they looked familiar. svb vmbra alarvm tvarvm, JSW

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Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > Proclus: > > I just visited your page for the first time, and I have a question: are you > associated with the HOGD or with BOTA? I of course noticed the graphics at > the head of your page and they looked familiar. > > svb vmbra alarvm tvarvm, > > JSW Nope, the Golden Dawn is just one of those initiatory societies that I have admired. I've studied Regardie's Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic intensively, comparing it to what I know of Masonry and, of course to Mormonism. I am interested in stellar based initiatory systems (cf- Kolob endowment). If you've looked deeper into my website, you will realize this, I'm sure. Most of what I've done is heavily infuenced by Temple's The Sirius Mystery. I've read alot of Crowley's liturgical material with the same intent. This is the root of my interest in Pseudo-Dionysius, who hints very broadly, as well as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, of course. Gads, I'm just an amatuer, but this stuff is fascinating, and I'm amazed that there is not more scholarly attention to these links. If you don't mind my blathering on... I am thinking hard about our family's Christmas celebration. I got tired of traditional stuff, so the last two years we bypassed "the story" and reviewed our geneology together. This year I want to take out compasses, and we will make worlds together with paper and crayons. We will review the plan of salvation and discuss what it really means to be one with the eloheim. I'm sure that there must be some way to tie this in with our geneological discussions of past years ;-}. If you guys have any suggestions about this, I would appreciate anything you had to offer. Our kids are 11 and 9. proclus

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Wow, that's beautiful. I'm on the run right now, so give me some time to absorb it. ;-} proclus Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > Entrances to holiness are everywhere. > The possibility of ascent is all the time. > Even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. > There is no place on earth without the Presence. > > Jacob, our father, was on the run. With only a rock for a > pillow. In what he thought was some God forsaken > wilderness. Until he had the dream. > "Surely the Holy One Himself, must have been in this > very place and I didn't even know it!" And then he was > afraid. > > He said, "How awesome is this place. This is none other > than God's house and here I am at the very doorway to > heaven!" .... > > You do not have to go anywhere to raise yourself. You > do not have to become anyone other than yourself to > find entrances. You are already there. You are already > everything you need to be. Entrances are everywhere and > all the time. > > There is no man who does not have his hour and no > thing that does not have its place. > > (Kushner, Honey from the Rock, 48, 50) proclus

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Ken Shaw wrote: > Proclus, > > Material-Animalist? > > ;) > > Ken Ahh... very good, Ken ;-} 1. All is alive (except?) 2. All is striving toward material apoteosis (except?) =Life is striving towards godhood unattained. (yet?) Remember, there is no such thing as immaterial matter. Gaia Lives! proclus

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Ken Shaw wrote: > I've said before that "Mormon Fundamentalist" may have > outlived it's usefullness as a catagory, and we need a > more open-ended model so that we can take in the new > developments of good scholarship. I've proposed the > designation "Mormon Radical" in the true sense of "Radical" > as "one who goes to the root". > > Luv ya' all, > Ken Shaw > > Mormon Radicals -- Has a nice ring. Should we rename the MutantRM's? I like the angle we have on RM's but I worry that there are not enough RM's out there to support a discussion group. BTW, I am also going to order "the Sufis". It is about time that I seriously read that important book, which I am only familiar with in passing. proclus

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Howdy Mutants! Within a month of my getting off my Mission I found and read my first Robert Anton Wilson book..."Cosmic Trigger: Final Secret of the Illuminati". Wilson's writings effected me in a deep way just as Carlos Castenada's and Terence McKenna's have. Have these writers influenced any of you? I've come to the point where I'm wondering if Crowley may have actually been an "Apocalyptic" figure in truth. What do you folks think? I would also like to invite my friend Art DeHoyos to join us here on the MutantRM list. Nothing fancy, just hit "reply all". Ken Shaw

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In a message dated 97-12-09 16:13:06 EST, kenshaw@dalsemi.com writes: > Within a month of my getting off my Mission I > found and read my first Robert Anton Wilson > book..."Cosmic Trigger: Final Secret of the > Illuminati". > > Wilson's writings effected me in a deep way > just as Carlos Castenada's and Terence McKenna's > have. Have these writers influenced any of you? Of course! Wilson, Castenada and McKenna seem to be tailor-made for "seeking" minds. Is your brain set in a jello mold? Read their books! Have you had your fill of dogma/amgod? Read their books! Although I cannot now believe or accept everything they wrote (or everything anyone else writes -- including me), they were certainly influencial on my young(er) malleable brain. > I've come to the point where I'm wondering if > Crowley may have actually been an "Apocalyptic" > figure in truth. What do you folks think? However much it bothers people, I still hold A.C. in high regard. For all his pretence, vanity, tomfoolery, puerility, blasphemy, and every other offensive "y" or "ism" he's been accused of, I am the better for having studied him. However much I hate lables, I suppose I can be called a Thelemite, and have A.C. to thank for it. "Apocalyptic"? Yes, and why not? Prophetic? Yes. A "true prophet"? Hmm...I'm not so sure. But then again, what is a "true prophet"? Not wanting to enter into polemics just now, I'll leave that discussion to others for the moment. > I would also like to invite my friend Art DeHoyos > to join us here on the MutantRM list. Nothing fancy, > just hit "reply all". Done! See what you get for it? ---Art.'.

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Ken Shaw wrote: > Art, > > It's great to hear from you man! > > Welcome to MutantRM. Ditto here, Art. Your earlier contribution regarding Royal Archwas also appreciated. If you are curious about the Mutant RM's website, here is the address. I regularly post our discussion there. If you have anything that you wish to contribute to this site in the form of links, content, autobiography, or whatever, please do pass them along. That goes for everyone. I will be getting back to you on the subject of Crowley, as I am quite swamped right now. Let me just say that the holy trinity for me consists of Wilson, Leary, and Crowley. I am sure that most of the mutants currently on this list share a similar opinion. proclus

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Proclus, I think the MutantRm list "has legs" now...thanks to your patient effort. I wanted to say something about the coming together of apparently disparate thought worlds, from old-fasioned Mormon Fundamentalists to the most far-out Thelemite MutantRM's that is happening. The Sufis talk about a period of time, during the expansion of Islam from China to Spain, when all of the apparently disparate "training systems of higher functioning" of the many "religions" of the world were suddenly thrown into conatact with each other. The Sufis acted as arbiters of this new world wide communion and refered to this event as "the rejoining of the Beads of Mercury". Joseph Smith is like "mercury" in that whoever looks into him sees his own image. Be well friends, Ken

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Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > ___PROCLUS___ > Mormon Radicals -- Has a nice ring. Should we rename the MutantRM's? I > like the angle we have on RM's but I worry that there are not enough RM's > out there to support a discussion group. > ----- > > I REALLY like the ring of "Mormon Radicals" -- it accurately describes me! > You might wish to prepare an FAQ that gives a kind of "mission statement" > for the group, as a kind of general indicator to forum members what the > group is all about. I don't want folks thinking that we are into blowing up > Church buildings or threatening individual's personal safety. > I think that Ken has a winner there. Maybe we could work it into the masthead somehow. I flipped it around to make it different kind of 'RM' ;-}. For example; A circle of wired brains. This discussion group is populated by radical mormons (link to FAQ) and returned mormon missionaries who have mutated their brains. If you are a radical mormon or a returned missionary who has changed in unexpected ways, this is the place for you. This opens up some possibilities, doesn't it? Feel free to hack, smack, spank, mutate, and utterly rewrite the above. I have a very thick skin most of the time, so if you want to criticize the website too, you won't hurt my feelings. In fact, I consider this a collaboration anyway. Here are a few more thoughts on these terms. Radical Mormon has more connotations than Mormon Radical. It is associated with polygamists, feminists, and militia men. It may have different meanings depending on whether you are inside or outside the Church, or a "Gentile". It is rather poetic. These are interesting and perhaps meaningful associations. I have always seen my role as that of a cultural terrorist (kaboom!). However, I do agree that we need to dissociate ourselves from violence. Real bombs are for real weenies! No web hits were returned on a web search for Mormon Radical, but several were returned for Radical Mormon. I have attached them below. (If you want the links, I will post them for you.) The lack of associations may be advantageous for the term Mormon Radical. Unfortunately, it may also be more ambiguous. A Mormon Radical could merely refer to a political radical who happens to be mormon, but a Radical Mormon must be radically mormon (RM;-}). Seen in this light, Radical Mormon appears to be a term that could enter the mainstream or be appropriated by the authorities. Maybe there is a book in this! > > > Everything within us and without us ought to stir our minds to admiration > and wonder. We are a mystery encompassed with mysteries. -- Albert Pike Keep these gems coming! It is very cool. proclus

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> In a message dated 97-12-09 16:13:06 EST, kenshaw@dalsemi.com writes: > > > Within a month of my getting off my Mission I > > found and read my first Robert Anton Wilson > > book..."Cosmic Trigger: Final Secret of the > > Illuminati". > > > > Wilson's writings effected me in a deep way > > just as Carlos Castenada's and Terence McKenna's > > have. Have these writers influenced any of you? > > Of course! Wilson, Castenada and McKenna seem to be tailor-made for "seeking" > minds. Is your brain set in a jello mold? Read their books! Have you had > your fill of dogma/amgod? Read their books! > It was about 1980. I read Illuminatus! before my mission and soon after Naked Communist, Naked Capitalist, and None Dare Call it a Conspiracy. This blew my mind bigtime! Wilson reconciled all the contradictions of conservativism for me, and made me solidly more anarcho-libertarian. My religious view and life plan were largely unaffected though, and I considered my future after a mission as a vast unknown. Later, on my mission, I made short order of the mission reading list, so I asked the mission president if I could do some reading in comparitive religion. He said fine, so I was looking for new books. While visiting another area I found a bookstore and bought Cosmic Trigger, Nag Hammadi Library, and Gnostic Gospels. Later, I picked up Aquarian Conspiracy. The combined effect of this blitz was a total mutation. I determined that I had uncovered the historical lineage of the endowment. The words from the tracts "Primitive Christianity" took on new meaning. Apotheosis was now a heretage and an immediate possibility. Furthermore, the world seemed to be on the edge of a transformation as radical as my personal transformation had been. We seemed to be fixed between the twin horns of mass annihilation and mass apotheosis. I vowed to be a part of that transformation, and chose a career that would externalize my new commitments. It would be a wilsonian "seventh circuit" activity in Life Sciences leading to increased intelligence and life extension. My future was no longer a vast unknown. The road seemed clear. > Although I cannot now believe or accept everything they wrote (or everything > anyone else writes -- including me), they were certainly influencial on my > young(er) malleable brain. > This is what the idea fo Mutant RM is all about. We are mutants, object lessons in the malleability of brains, and Wilson played a role in this for most of us. Reality is silly putty, and as mormons, we are trying to mold it into a celestial world. That is our heretage. It is what we were born to do. Over time I have also realized that Wilson falls short in many respects. This idea of a heretage, a loyalty, a tradition is foreign to him. He fails to understand what the seventh circuit revelations MEAN (I think that he later realized this, and tried to repair the damage, but his time was past.) We have a genetic heretage and legacy. Our ancestors are always with us, and the form that we choose for reality is not arbitrary. It does matter... it matters to them. We can live our lives in fulfillment of the promises that were made to them. > > I've come to the point where I'm wondering if > > Crowley may have actually been an "Apocalyptic" > > figure in truth. What do you folks think? > > However much it bothers people, I still hold A.C. in high regard. Gems from the Equinox is my bedside reader. I've read the Book of the Law almost as many times as I've read the BOM! Crowley apparently had a certain regard for Joseph Smith and the Nauvoo period. (Maybe Andy could chime in here with his quote from Moonchild.) > > > > I would also like to invite my friend Art DeHoyos > > to join us here on the MutantRM list. Nothing fancy, > > just hit "reply all". > > Done! See what you get for it? > Thanx man! You are welcome on this list. proclus

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Ken Shaw wrote: > Proclus, > > I think the MutantRm list "has legs" now...thanks to your > patient effort. Kewl. I hope that you are right. > > > I wanted to say something about the coming together of apparently > disparate thought worlds, from old-fasioned Mormon Fundamentalists > to the most far-out Thelemite MutantRM's that is happening. This conjunction is strange and compelling. I am still trying to make some sense of it. It is probably significant that the "legs" of this list resulted from a schism on a largely fundamentalist list. What is it that we share with the fundamentalists? > > > The Sufis talk about a period of time, during the expansion of Islam > from China to Spain, when all of the apparently disparate "training > systems of higher functioning" of the many "religions" of the world > were suddenly thrown into conatact with each other. > > The Sufis acted as arbiters of this new world wide communion and > refered to this event as "the rejoining of the Beads of Mercury". > > Joseph Smith is like "mercury" in that whoever looks into him sees > his own image. This is a wonderful image. It appears that Joseph Smith benefitted from this melding of traditions. proclus

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Here is the seed of a theological debate. This is the place where Jacob wrestled with God, right? If God is everywhere, how could Jacob wrestle with Him? I am reminded that Joseph Smith was also quite a wrestler. Perhaps this accounts in part for his concrete notion of God. The mormon image of God is antithetical to triune mysteries and pantheism, isn't it? The Mormon God is _not_ found when you split a rock. ;-} Still, I agree that God can be anywhere he wants to be ( a definition of deity ). He lives on a giant Urim and Thummim world, which gives him a virtual presence anywhere in space time. That's my current reading anyway. I see Mormonism as the first extropian religion. I agree that a radical mormon would be malleable and amenable the latest revelations from historical research. I also feel that a radical mormon would have a similar orientation to cutting edge science and science fiction. Much of the language of mormon teaching needs to be revised in light of the technical understanding that it now available to us. Here are a few examples, This idea of God as a virtual presence. Science now has language which describes the dawn of the universe. The sci fi idea of uploading is analoguous to the ressurection; Our consciousness could be immortal, if it were uploaded to a suitable medium, ie a glorified and perfected body. In mormonism, immortality=physical immortality. Let's take a short look at the book of Job. In chapter 41 there is a long list of things that God can do, but man can't. This is intended to instill awe and devotion, but in fact we are trying to emulate God. Quickly scan the list and you will realize that it is out of date! __Today we can already do most of the things that only God could do in Job's day.__ If Mormonism is true, it will be validated by good science. I try to use scientific language whenever I can to describe the concepts of Mormonism. This is not the language of the scriptures, but it can be equally true. Science is the new realm of convergence for diverse systems of psychic development. Remember, Crowley was trying to establish a scientific and replicable magick and mysticism. "Our method is science. Our aim is religion." Mormonism can be viewed in a similar way. Alma's invitation to "experiment upon my words" comes to mind. What about all this copious journal keeping, that is also found in science and in Crowley's system? Crowley insisted on a complete and accurate magical journal. Out of the books ye shall be judged. Publish or perish. proclus Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > Entrances to holiness are everywhere. > The possibility of ascent is all the time. > Even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. > There is no place on earth without the Presence. > > Jacob, our father, was on the run. With only a rock for a > pillow. In what he thought was some God forsaken > wilderness. Until he had the dream. > "Surely the Holy One Himself, must have been in this > very place and I didn't even know it!" And then he was > afraid. > > He said, "How awesome is this place. This is none other > than God's house and here I am at the very doorway to > heaven!" .... > > You do not have to go anywhere to raise yourself. You > do not have to become anyone other than yourself to > find entrances. You are already there. You are already > everything you need to be. Entrances are everywhere and > all the time. > > There is no man who does not have his hour and no > thing that does not have its place. > > (Kushner, Honey from the Rock, 48, 50) Randall D Shortridge wrote: > So, there are two ways to approach things....within (inner path) and > without (outer path). Christ shows the inner path...or how to be "at one > ment" with all things. Satan takes the outer path. This is why he knew > not the mind of God and must use force to accomplish things. The Lord > will say "moutain be removed" and the intelligences obey willfully > because he is at one ment with them (law of love). Satan says > "ok....mountain be removed....so bring on the bulldozers!" (law of > force). Are we to conclude that God wouldn't (or couldn't) use a bulldozer? What if it is an extremely fun and glorified bulldozer? Was Michaelangelo forcing the stone to be David? He thought that he was bringing the inherent nature within the stone to the surface. He was exposing it's "inner path". Yet, he was using the best tools and technology of his day. We were commanded to subdue the world. We don't love what the world is, but rather, we love what it can become. We are commanded to be a part of that evolution. > > > Science and technology today is Satans way of using force to control the > elements. Force them (elements) to do your bidding by their obedience to > natural laws. God doesn't need to do this cause they (intelligence in > the elements) respond out of love. > > Now, reach deep inside you and ask the "I am" presence within you about > baptism and the priesthood and what is the most important thing to do. > Still your own mind and rid yourself of all preconceived notions. Then > in this silence and harmony, listen to what thoughts or voices come into > your mind. That will be God speaking. You will have found the mind of > God (....be still and know I am God...: Psalms 46:10; D&C 101:16). > This is too supernatural for me. The reason that nature obeys God is because it is obedient to the law. Likewise, God himself has bound himself to that law, and rewards us based on our obedience to it as well. Satan tried to become a law unto himself. For God the whole inertia of the Universe is his friend. For Satan, it is his enemy. As we learn the laws and live them, we become godlike, and all things will work together for our good as well. The key insight is not some touchy feeley looking within. "God is a man, and when you see him, you will see a man." He is the Ultimate Scientist, or better, the Ultimate Technologist, because he knows everything, and acts accordingly. God's insight is ALL penetrating. That's why they call it the all seeing eye. It looks outward, not inward. When I look inward, I see a sinner. That person needs the mercy of Christ. Only when I repent, and DO the right thing, do I feel better. I have to bulldoze myself. "Natural man is the enemy of God." > Just need to go within and find that which you already have been endowed. > This is why I am suspicious of the claims of the independents. God's kingdom is not anarchy. "My house is a house of order." Priesthood lineage does matter, or else there would have been no need for the Restoration in the first place. proclus running for cover

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In a message dated 97-12-09 16:26:26 EST, kenshaw@dalsemi.com writes: > "Moonchild" is refering to Joseph Smith! Hold on guys! I don't doubt that A.C. admired Joseph's accomplishments, but in the three times I've read it, I never thought _Moonchild_ was about Joseph. My good friend and brother Mason, Martin Starr (owner of Teitan Press, Chicago, a Crowley publisher), is considered the foremost Crowley scholar living (see his article, "Aleister Crowley: Freemason!" in _Ars Quatuor Coronatorum_ vol. 108 (1995), p.150.) Martin regularly advises the O.T.O. (see the "acknowledgements" in their published books) and is writing a history of the Order. We have discussed Crowley's works for years and, although we've discussed A.C.'s "admiration" for Smith, Martin's never hinted that _Moonchild_ was a veiled tribute to Joseph (not that he's the last word, but is certainly close to it). Certainly, A.C. has an "enigmatic figure" which he explains was Joseph (_Moonchild_, p.226), but he's no more important to the story than any other character, and plays a far more minor roll than many others. But enough of that. Back to the Mutants! When I exclude Mormon, quasi-Mormon and anti-Mormon and other "purely religious influences" on me, as a Mutant RM, I have (in alphabtical order) the following as ten of the most significant (off the top of my head -- there are doubtless others that deserve a place here): Joseph Campbell Aleister Crowley Eric Hoffer Julian Jaynes Carl Jung Martin Gardner Tim Leary Israel Regardie Andrew Weil Robert Anton Wilson How about you all? How about a "top ten" rundown? We can see how much crossover there is. Khabs am Pekht! ---Art.'.

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ArtdeHoyos wrote: > In a message dated 97-12-09 16:26:26 EST, kenshaw@dalsemi.com writes: > > > "Moonchild" is refering to Joseph Smith! I missed a post here. Maybe someone could forward Ken's remarks to me. > > > Hold on guys! I don't doubt that A.C. admired Joseph's accomplishments, but > in the three times I've read it, I never thought _Moonchild_ was about Joseph. I think that I would agree > > > My good friend and brother Mason, Martin Starr (owner of Teitan Press, > Chicago, a Crowley publisher), is considered the foremost Crowley scholar > living (see his article, "Aleister Crowley: Freemason!" in _Ars Quatuor > Coronatorum_ vol. 108 (1995), p.150.) Martin regularly advises the O.T.O. > (see the "acknowledgements" in their published books) and is writing a history > of the Order. We have discussed Crowley's works for years and, although we've > discussed A.C.'s "admiration" for Smith, Martin's never hinted that > _Moonchild_ was a veiled tribute to Joseph (not that he's the last word, but > is certainly close to it). Certainly, A.C. has an "enigmatic figure" which he > explains was Joseph (_Moonchild_, p.226), but he's no more important to the > story than any other character, and plays a far more minor roll than many > others. I have not got Moonchild in front of me at the moment, but I'd expect that this the quote that I was refering too. > > > When I exclude Mormon, quasi-Mormon and anti-Mormon and other "purely > religious influences" on me, as a Mutant RM, I have (in alphabtical order) the > following as ten of the most significant (off the top of my head -- there are > doubtless others that deserve a place here): > > Joseph Campbell > Aleister Crowley > Eric Hoffer > Julian Jaynes > Carl Jung > Martin Gardner > Tim Leary > Israel Regardie > Andrew Weil > Robert Anton Wilson > > How about you all? How about a "top ten" rundown? We can see how much > crossover there is. Great! Here is my list. I've marked the ones that I share with Art. Sorry, I just couldn't leave out the bottom of the list! BTW, this is a modern list. Maybe we could also do a list of ancient or historical, non-scriptural influences as well. *Robert Anton Wilson *Timothy Leary *Aleister Crowley Starhawk Robert Heinlein Philip K. Dick Isaac Asimov *Isreal Regardie Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw Dave Hunt H. P. Lovecraft Marilyn Ferguson Douglas Hofstadter R. K. G. Temple David Hackett Fischer Here are the ancient influences. Proclus (obv.) Plotinus Pseudo-Dionyseus Gregory of Tours Tertullian Hildegard Clement of Rome King Arthur ;-} Ahh, and the obvious question is how did the following people influence you, Art? I've marked the ones I already I know pretty well. *Joseph Campbell Eric Hoffer Julian Jaynes *Carl Jung *Martin Gardner Andrew Weil proclus

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>In a message dated 97-12-09 16:26:26 EST, kenshaw@dalsemi.com writes: > >> "Moonchild" is refering to Joseph Smith! > >Hold on guys! I don't doubt that A.C. admired Joseph's accomplishments, but >in the three times I've read it, I never thought _Moonchild_ was about Joseph. > I should have made my first post on this more explicit. There is a 2 or 3 page passage in the book that contains the 'tribute' to Joseph Smith. The rest of the novel makes no reference to him at all. The protagonist of the book has entered the astral plane and is looking for candidates to inhabit the body of the Moonchild. Many prospects come and go, most described with a no more than a terse paragraph or less. Then Crowley launches into a rather lengthy description of one candidate from whose heads sprang images of 'red indians', etc. etc. From the tone of this passage it is obvious that this is one heck of a spirit -- a real contender. But, alas, this candidate passes and another is selected as the chosen one. My apologies for not being clear in my first post. AJ

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Howdy Mutants! I love this list...it's helping me embrace my inner freak. Top Ten List.... 1. Robert Anton Wilson (who infected me with the Crowley meme) 2. Idries Shah (I first read of Shah's book "The Sufis" in Wilson's "Cosmic Trigger") 3. Doris Lessing (close deciple of Idries Shah and author of "Shikasta", a "science-fiction" Novel about the history of this planet from the point of view of the "higher beings" struggling to guide it to salvation) 4. Morton Smith (author of the hair-raising scholarly work "Jesus the Magician") 5. Peter Tompkins (author of what Nibley called "the excellent but unfortunatly named 'Mysteries of the Great Pyramid'"...his "Magic of the Oblisks" brought together Joseph Smith's Hermeticism and Crowley's stellar Ojas alchemy) 6. Colin Wilson (close student of Idries Shah and prolific writer of what can only be called "crypro-religious speculative philosophical-faction") 7. Robert Graves (intimate friend and deciple of Idries Shah and author of "King Jesus" a novel describing the machinations of the Herodians vs. the secret "masonic" fraternities of Davidic Loyalists devoted to installing Jesus as King of Israel) 8. Raphiel Patai (who's "The Hebrew Goddess" and "Messiah Texts" opened my eyes to the authenticity of Kabbalah) 9. Terence McKenna (who is devoted to reviving Trismegistic Magic as a path to salvation) 10. Mircea Eliade (who's "Yoga: Imortality and Freedom", "The Sacred and Profane" and "The Forge and the Crucible" brought it all together) Ken Shaw

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Ken Shaw wrote: > Ken Shaw wrote: > > I wanted to say something about the coming together of apparently > > disparate thought worlds, from old-fasioned Mormon Fundamentalists > > to the most far-out Thelemite MutantRM's that is happening. > > Prclus wrote: > This conjunction is strange and compelling. I am still trying to make some sense > of it. It is probably significant that the "legs" of this list resulted from a > schism on a largely fundamentalist list. What is it that we share with the > fundamentalists? > --------- > > My guess is a taste for the truth. The original teachings of Joseph Smith > have a certain "taste" to them and carry a "nutrition" that the modern > Church teachings do not. The truly hungry will seek out the true "Bread > and Meat" even if they are told repetedly that the images they are trying > to live on are real food. > This meat has become the mysteries. We are counselled not to delve to deeply into the mysteries. Don't try to explain the Cause of anything in Mormonism today. Just watch me get roasted with my recent post to mahonri, where I try to do just that. Just mention the urim and thummim, or polygamy in the Church today and soon you will find yourself accused of delving into the mysteries, or looking beyond the mark. Still, from Belmont, things look to have improved. I think it is that old mormon doctrine of infallibility finally coming back to bite us. We are taught that the Lord will not allow the prophet to lead the Church astray, meaning that the Lord will take him out of the way. But for years, the Church was lead not by the prophet, but by a counsel. It seems that the rhetoric has now softened a bit since those days, since GBH became prophet. He is now so at ease, and at home with the calling. And the Church seems to have lost it's nasty edge. Then again, maybe that's just my perspective... proclus

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Ken Shaw wrote: > Proclus, > > Brigham Young said "my religion is > nothing other than Natural Philosophy". > Isn't it interesting that Eleazar is taking the disussion on mahonri in exactly the opposite direction to this? He hasn't gotten back to me. I am not sure that he wants to be on this list. > Rennaisance Magic was the most comprehensive > model of reality available in Joseph's day, > and it still holds up pretty good in this day > of "Super-string Theory". The Rennaisance > system of Natural Magic could still work as > a framework for organizing new scientific > knowledge into a coherant world-view. > Yes, we are all standing on the shoulders of Pico de Mirandela, et al. I forgot to add him and Ficino to my ancients list. The rationalists lost something when they drove out the monks. ;-} > I brought up the Sufis because I honestly > believe that they are somehow involved with > the "event" of Mormonism. All the threads > lead back to the Sufis, whether you follow > Freemasonry, Ritual Magic, Kabbalah or the > "UFO" type displays like the "First Vision" > or the Kirtland Temple manifestations. I would say that the Sufis are definitely in line, but would think that the Sufis converged like all the rest. I say this as a big fan of G. I. Gurdieff, who I also neglected to add to my list! I will look into this further when Idries Shah's book arrives. Speaking of Gurdieff, it was quite a decision for me to read Beezebub's Tales to his Grandson. Schoolwork was becoming more demanding, and I had already commited to Crowley. Still I felt that I needed another perpective to round off the corners with. I chose between Blavatsky, and Gurdieff. This was a TOUGH decision, and I sometimes regret it. Ahh, if I had all the time in the world, maybe then I could read all the books in the world ;-}. > Hugh Nibley said that "Science Fiction is > folk scripture" and I believe that it serves > the same function for us that Folk Magic served > for our forefathers, it helps us feel like a > "Higher Reality" could actualy exist. > Yea, he has had a number of interesting things to say about Sci Fi. Sci Fi is an easy gloss for Mormonism. God becomes as space man, who live on Kolob, but jets around the universe. After all He is really busy ;-}. proclus

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From: Joe Steve Swick III : Here is my "TOP TEN" list. It is longer than ten, it includes "purely religious influences," and it amputates wide areas of personal interest. Abraham Heschel (The Prophets) Aeschylus Albert Pike Anonymous (The Kybalion, Meditations on the Tarot) Aryeh Kaplan (Sefer Yetzirah, Meditation and the Bible, Meditation and Kabbalah, Anthology) Brigham Young (October 8, 1854 Discourse) Carl Jung Dylan Thomas Joseph Campbell Clement of Alexandria (Stromata) Confucius (Analects) Dante Edward Fitzgerald's Omar Khayyam James Joyce Joseph Smith Kawabata Yasunari Mircea Eliade Paul Foster Case (Book of Tokens, True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order, The Tarot) Raphael Patai (Hebrew Goddess, Messiah Texts, Jewish Alchemists) Robert Frost Shakespeare Thoreau W. L. Wilmshurst Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi (Work of the Kabbalist, Kabbalah, Adam and the Kabbalistic Tree) +++ +++++ +++++++ Rabbi Yochanan said: If it were not written [in the Bible] it would be impossible to say. But we are taught that God wrapped Himself [in Tallith] like a prayer leader and showed Moses the order of prayer. He said, "Whenever Israel sins, let them proceed in this manner, and I will forgive them" (Talmud Rosh HaShanah 17b). To fail to speak to a man who is capable of benefitting is to let a man go to waste. To speak to a man who is incapable of benefitting is to let one's words go to waste. A wise man lets neither men nor words go to waste." (Analects 15:8)

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Re: my top influences. Most of my beliefs I did not adopt from some great thinker but pieced together myself from myriads of tiny bits of evidence. Major Influences: Joseph Smith Charles Darwin Gandhi Jesus Blake Ostler (author, "The Mormon Concept of God," and "The Book of Mormon as a Modern Expansion of an Ancient Source.") Mircea Eliade Dan P. McAdams (psychologist, author, _The Stories We Live By: Personal Myths and the Making of the Self_, which I STRONGLY recommend!) Epictetus Avraham Gileadi (I have been influenced, not by his apocalyptic theology, but by his scholarly, Hebraic approach to scripture) David Buss (evolutionary psychologist, author, _The Evolution of Desire_) Thoreau Emerson D. Michael Quinn Viktor Frankl (author, _Man's Search for Meaning_) Albert Ellis (psychologist, father of cognitive therapy) Timothy Miller (psychologist, author, _How to Want What You Have_) John Dewey (philosopher, author, _A Common Faith_) James Charlesworth (author, _Jesus Within Judaism_) & other Bible critics Nathaniel Branden (objectivist psychologist) Ayn Rand (philosopher, novelist) Richard Bushman Robin G. Collingwood (philosopher of history) Stephen Covey The Apostle Paul Trevor Luke (a friend) Phil Brown (a friend) Mom (really!) Steve Epperson (one of my professors, author, _Mormons and Jews_) Victor Hugo Lao Tzu Carl Jung John Gray (author, _Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus_) Thomas Gilovich (research psychologist, author, _How We Know What Isn't So_)

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When I looked at Don's list, I realized that my list was far to short! He included a few that I should have but didn't. Ach! Life is too short and the books are too good. JSW

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Proclus, I was wondering when Gurdjeiff would come up. He is a great mystery, and it is interesting that his student John Bennett sponsered Shah's immigration to Great Britian. "The Psychology of Mans Possible Evolution" was the first thing I read of full-on Fouth Way stuff and it really shook me up. It was like a machine reading a description of it's own functioning, I hated it because it wasn't all soft and pretty like Jungian stuff. Later I learned that he wasn't saying anything different from Buddhism or Sufism, but in fact he was presenting the primordial root doctrine of both Buddhism and the Gnostic/Hermetic/Platonic/Sufi stream, in an Eastern Orthodox Christian recension. This is big stuff and Gurdjeiff makes it clear what's at stake here. Thanks brother, Ken

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Jahnihah putting the temple book on the web..... Well, I guess my response is very different from yours. Read the first part of the temple book. It addresses the topic which you bring up....secret breakers. Jesus was a secret breaker, JS was a secret breaker......etc. Also, the book mentions the difference between 'secret' and 'sacred'. Now, the (LDS) church will say that the endowment is sacred, not secret. But, that is what their lips say. Their actions say it is secret. Perhaps they should say something like "It is sacred and therefore secret." or something that is more truthful to their actions. But they say it is NOT SECRET. (emphasis only) So, if they say it is 'not secret', then what is the big deal? However, the endowment is very secret, but not how people think. It is because all but a very few who get the endowment do not have a inkling of its meaning. The meaning is sealed from them because of the way they approach it. Most take it literally, whereas it is meant to be very symbolic. It is the old external vs internal thing. Satan externalizes things and elevates the external to the highest importance. The Pharasees did the same and the Lord called them children of the devil in Matthew 23. The words of Jesus in that chapter apply to us as well. Alas, does not history so oft repeat itself? Read in the temple book about the meaning of the penalties. The meaning is likely very different than most perceive. At least it was for me. Personally, I am at peace with Jahnihah putting the temple book on the web. It is because the Lord revealed to me that this is a very special time. The seventh seal spoken of in the book of Revelation has already been opened. It opened before the sixth seal closed. This is why the calamnities spoken of at the end of the sixth period and the beginning of the seventh sound so much alike. It is because they are the same calamnities and the two periods overlap. Here is a great mystery revealed. This is one of the meanings that in the end times "the days will be shortened". This is a very special time because it is the time of the restitution of all things. All of the secrets will be shouted from the housetops. So, I personally am not surprised when a secret is shouted for all to hear. Also, interesting that your first paragraph sounds much like what I hear about the B of M. Now, I know you went on a mission and likely had many of the same experiences that I had when I went. Many people would declare the B of M to be of the devil without having searched, pondered and prayed about it. Is your reaction so much different? You say you have not read it because of mixed feelings. Anyway, here is another mystery revealed....everyone must become like a little child in order to be taught from on high. Remove from yourself all of your preconceived notions and listen to the voice of God that is within you. I am not trying to get on your case, but just speaking frankly and openly. In the thirteenth article of faith, we claim to 'believe all things'. Do we? God bless you proclus. Eleazar. Michael Love wrote: > ACK! Jonny_cat put the temple book up on the web! > I just don't know what to say about this. I haven't even > read it yet, because I am so divided about it. I just left it > on my hard drive. Sorry guys, but I'm in shock. > > Ya' know, I read Strangers in Paradox, and didn't blink, but > that was six years ago, and this feels different. (like > sneaking around) Please straighten me out, if you have > a different opinion about this. > > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: [mahonri-l] Temple Book zip file ready- finally > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:12:53 -0600 > From: Jahnihah > Reply-To: mahonri-l@troubador.com > To: mahonri-l@mail.cm2.com > > The 'Temple Book' purportedly authoered by Max Scousen is up and ready > > for downloading as a zip file. > > Visit ZIONOSPHERE (link below) and click the link 'Temple Book' to > download it. > > Hey, BTW, if it doesn't work for you let me know so I can fix it. > > -- > Peace & Love, Jahnihah > > "Peace, be still and know that I AM God." > > Have you had your Baptism by Fire Today ? > How about your Translation ? > > (remove 'spank' to respond directly to e-mail) > privacy0@bellsouth.net > > Visit the ZIONOSPHERE homepage > still under construction @ > http://www.angelfire.com/biz/ZIONOSPHERE > and E-mail me if you would like to be included. > > ICQ WorldWideWeb Page & E-Mail for Jahnihah Wrede > at ZIONOSPHERE http://wwp.mirabilis.com/994601 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mahonri-l Doctrinal Discussion List > Visit our web site at http://www.troubador.com/~mahonri > > For help send mail to mahonri-l-info@troubador.com with the > word "help" in the body of the message. > To be removed from the list send mail to mahonri-l-info@troubador.com > with the words "DELETE mynam@myserver" in the body of the message > > RULE #1: NO FIGHTING OR PERSONAL INSULTS. TAKE IT OFF LIST.

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Proclus, The Nature vs. Supernature discussion is vital to our understanding of of the path of salvation. Joseph is perhaps better understood as a Realist than a Materialist, in that, like the Eastern Orthodox Church, he understood Salvation to be a process rather than an event. Orthodox theology posits that Salvation is an alchemical change that occurs in the whole person, brought on by regular contact with the Absolute through the Sacraments and Prayer. Gurdjieff said that what we consider "Miraculous" is just the operation of unfamiliar natural functions, but also that the truly "Miraculous" is actually possible but all the levels of "emanation" between the Absolute and this world would have to be destroyed...sort of like calling down fire from heaven and having a Solar-flare reach clear out from the Sun to the Earth to do the job. A manifestation of the truly Miraculous will simply be the "Imminentization of the Eschaton"..."The Day of YHVH"...the end of the world. Ken

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Interesting comments. Ken Shaw wrote: > Proclus, > > The Nature vs. Supernature discussion is vital to our > understanding of of the path of salvation. Joseph is > perhaps better understood as a Realist than a Materialist, > in that, like the Eastern Orthodox Church, he understood > Salvation to be a process rather than an event. Yes, but this process does not necessarily imply realism. Furthermore, I'd have a hard time reconciling realism with the types and shadows, image of God business (which Blayne brought up), which falsely appears to be idealism or symbolic reality. This is so central to Mormon teaching. I agree that these basic issues need to be addressed before an intelligible discussion of the nature of salvation can be undertaken. BTW, I feel that the case is much better made that Smith was an enlightenment Dualist, except that this would have to be heavily qualified to avoid materialism, because of his blatently materialistic statements. > > > Gurdjieff said that what we consider "Miraculous" is just > the operation of unfamiliar natural functions, I'd be amazed, if Smith disagreed with Gurdjieff on this point. I think that BY made a related statement, which you brought up before. > but also > that the truly "Miraculous" is actually possible but all > the levels of "emanation" between the Absolute and this > world would have to be destroyed...sort of like calling > down fire from heaven and having a Solar-flare reach clear > out from the Sun to the Earth to do the job. > > A manifestation of the truly Miraculous will simply be > the "Imminentization of the Eschaton"..."The Day of > YHVH"...the end of the world. In other words, God could do a true miracle, but it would break the creation. Hmmm... I'd be inclined to disagree with Gurdieff here. It seems to me that God has bound himself to the law (at least in some cases). If that is true, wouldn't it follow that He cannot act from outside the universe? If God could act from outside the universe, that could imply a non-material reality. So far, the "non-material forces" have turned out to be subtely material or phantasmal as Joseph taught. In other words, waves and fields are in the material realm. This is G's teaching as you point out. I don't think that God needs a miracle to destroy the world. We ourselves are merrily doing that just fine through conventional means. ;-} BTW, Speaking of G's Beelzabub's Tales to his Grandson, has anyone read Twain's Tales from Earth? That's another excellent extra-terrestrial perspective of the planet, which I like better in certain repects. It is amazing how Twain still stings after all these years. proclus

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Proclus said- > BTW, I feel that the case is much better made that Smith > was an enlightenment Dualist, except that this would have to be heavily > qualified to avoid materialism, because of his blatently materialistic > statements. The Monist/Dualist tussle is somthing that's burned up my bran cells for a long time, it's kind of like the particle/wave problem. The Buddhism describes the Ground of Being as "The Clear Light" and say that it can't be described because it's not an "object" but rather "empty clarity". Phenonmona arises like reflections in a mirror, the mirror being "clarity". The world process procedes very much like the Lurianic Kabbalah description of the withdrawal of the Ein Sof. The Clear Light may be the same thing as the Pleroma described by the Gnostic and wouldn't be "material" any more than a dream is "material". The Buddhists describe the origin of the world in a way that sounds alot like the Valentinian Gnostics, they say that the Gods discovered their own existance, like a sleeper awaking with the lights already on, and assuming themselves to be Eternal, proceeded to create the Universe. This is pretty far-out stuff but it seems to be saying that Monism and Dualism are BOTH true in some way. It makes my head hurt. > > > > > BTW, Speaking of G's Beelzabub's Tales to his Grandson, has anyone read > Twain's Tales from Earth? I'm inclined at this point to ask you to drop everythin and read Doris Lessing's science-fiction Novel "Shikasta". It's REAL good. Thanks man, Ken

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Ken Shaw wrote: > Proclus said- > > > BTW, I feel that the case is much better made that Smith > > was an enlightenment Dualist, except that this would have to be heavily > > qualified to avoid materialism, because of his blatently materialistic > > statements. > > The Monist/Dualist tussle is somthing that's burned up my > bran cells for a long time, it's kind of like the particle/wave > problem. The Buddhism describes the Ground of Being as "The > Clear Light" and say that it can't be described because it's > not an "object" but rather "empty clarity". Phenonmona arises > like reflections in a mirror, the mirror being "clarity". The > world process procedes very much like the Lurianic Kabbalah > description of the withdrawal of the Ein Sof. The Clear Light > may be the same thing as the Pleroma described by the Gnostic > and wouldn't be "material" any more than a dream is "material". > > The Buddhists describe the origin of the world in a way that sounds > alot like the Valentinian Gnostics, they say that the Gods discovered > their own existance, like a sleeper awaking with the lights already on, > and assuming themselves to be Eternal, proceeded to create the Universe. > > This is pretty far-out stuff but it seems to be saying that Monism > and Dualism are BOTH true in some way. It makes my head hurt. I forgot to say the Joseph deconstructed dualism constantly and in multiple ways. One of them is his famous quip that all spirit is matter, just finer matter. In another tactic, we get a series of levels; Intelligence Spirit Body or, pre-existance earthlife spirit world ressurection... on and on... and on All of this against a backdrop of eternity and eternal progression from the deep levels of and eternal past to the deep levels of an eternal future, like an embryo recapitulating the evolution of God. In a strange way, this is somewhat resonant with what you were saying about the ground of being, and the pleroma. I think Jefferson the dualist would have been truly baffled by all of this. On the other hand, as we have pointed out, Gurdieff had a similar system, and I think he would have resonated well with this. Of course, he would have pointed out that his was a materialist system. All of these levels, veils, forces, and angelic powers are totally materialistic. We are only arguing about the backdrop. So, there is also a kind of resonance with neoplatonism and its multiple aeonic levels and a backdrop; part of my fascination with Proclus. He employed neoplatonism as the best metaprogramming technology available in his day. Still, he was not satisfied with it, and explored everything leaving no stone unturned. This is Proclus the Hecate initiate, Proclus the Zoroastrian; one guy, many religions. Hehe, I am reminded of the line from Dune, "The sleeper must awake." Every time I move to the next level, I find out what a schmuck I have been! We recreate the world every time. Maybe all of this is just a metaprogramming exercise! > > > > > > > > BTW, Speaking of G's Beelzabub's Tales to his Grandson, has anyone read > > Twain's Tales from Earth? > > I'm inclined at this point to ask you to drop everythin and read > Doris Lessing's science-fiction Novel "Shikasta". It's REAL good. Yes! Read it. Loved it! It is another example of an author's attempt to enter the extra-terrestrial perpective. Shikasta is also part of what got me through the changes in the temple ordinances. The world is evolving, and our response to it must evolve. Our way of protecting ourselves from it and escaping from it must evolve. Now, seen in this light, apostacy is merely what happens when the caravan of the kingdom rolls forward, and a few get left behind. If you value the past and your heretage, but you want to stay with the caravan, then radical mormonism may be the only possible response. BTW, I saw a new edition of Shikasta in paperback a few months back. Ken is right. This is highly recommended (but huge). I think that I will part with a little christmas money and pick it up, so that I can have my own copy. proclus in the womb of eternity

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I see the structure of the website as a metaphor of what we have been discussing. To enter the heart of it all, you have to seek the mysteries. Framing is a metaphor for metaprogramming. If you can't do frames, you must take the "shortcut to the mysteries". These are the first faltering steps toward spiritual maturity. One monism is traded for another. The brain is obsessed again, re-fanaticized, "re-crystallized" in Lessing's sense of the word. By staring at the unveiled heart of eternity, the mind is overwhelmed, reconfigured, but it is a vulgar partial picture.... almost pornographic. BUT... if you can do frames, the site is presented on multiple frames or channels. Eternity is veiled and beautiful, like a waiting bride. The mind is not obsessed, but freed to pursue different viewpoints, all depths and heights. The heart of eternity is your reward, it is presented by metaprogramming on multiple levels, like a speed of light snapshot. proclus

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Howdy Ya'll, I found a cool website showing that the planets in our Solar System are distributed in a Phi spiral, and then discusses the accuracy of Babylonian astronomy and the meaning of the Chaldean Oracles. Check it out: http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/JNHDA Ken

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Yea, the ptolemic system was not as ubiquitously accepted by the ancients as we are sometimes led to believe. I'm sure that this is not news to this group. Kepler (and therefore Newton) was standing on the shoulders of certain of the ancients who even speculated that even the stars were the "centers of revolvings". We now know this to be the case. Proclus hinted that he got this knowledge from one of his many initiations. One is reminded of the PofGP idea that Abraham taught astronomy to the Egyptians. "God is he having the head of a hawk." (cf; Facsimile 2 of the Book of Abraham, Cosmic Trigger, and temple architecture.) Pico de Mirandola was also influenced by the Chaldean Oracles, as were Pletho, Iamblichus, and Psellus. After the death of Pico, Ficino found the manuscript. Where is it now? proclus BTW, here are some of my favorite oracles; 1. But God is He having the head of the Hawk... who inspires the Sacred Philosophy... infinite in his power and energizing a spiral force. 10. The Father effused not Fear, but he infused persuasion. 40. These being many, descend flashingly upon the shining Worlds, and in them are the Three Supernals. 55. Because it is the Operator, because it is the Giver of Life Bearing Fire, because it filleth the Life-producing bosom of Hecate; and it instilleth into the Synoches the enlivening strength of Fire, endued with mighty power. 59. Rhea, the Fountain and River of the Blessed Intellectuals, having first received the powers of all things in Her Ineffable Bosom, pours forth perpetual Generation upon all things. 105. We learn that Matter pervadeth the whole world, as the Gods also assert. 123. He made them six in number, and for the Seventh he cast into the midst thereof the Fiery Sun. 125. And the Swift Sun doth pass as ever around a Center. 178. The Oracles of the Gods declare, that through purifying ceremonies, not the Soul only, but bodies themselves become worthy of receiving much assistance and health, for, say they, the mortal vestment of coarse matter will by these means be purified. 179. We should flee, according to the Oracle, the multitude of men going in a herd. Cheers!

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> 1) Vedanta > 2) Yoga > 3) Taoism > 4) Orthodox Christian Philokalia > 5) Hasidic Judaism > 6) Sufism and Isma'ili Islam > 7) The Pythagorean/Platonic stream > > What's funny is that it dosn't seem > to me like "Mormonism" is operating > as a "vehicle" for the transmission > of "The Tradition" at all. > > It looks to me like "Mormonism" was > an event...a kind of "science project" > carried out to produce a carefuly crafted > "impact" on a specific population, at a > specific time, for a specific purpose. > > It produced us...what's next? > Well now that's the question isn't it? I feel a certain intensity about this, like we are the edge of something very important. Maybe we nine will answer that question together right now. Let's put our heads together. proclus

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Speaking of giants, are there any opinions out there about The Portable Jung by Joseph Campbell? I've never seen nor read it myself. I've been looking around for info on these two. proclus

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Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > This site rocks. Yea, literally too! I loved some of those audio loops. =} > > > Thankyouversomuch. > > JSW I have added a link to the website for this site... Thanks Andy! proclus > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Love > To: Andy Mcguire ; Kathleen McGuire > ; Michael Love ; R. Trent > Reynolds ; Joe Steve Swick III ; Don > Bradley ; ArtdeHoyos ; KenShaw007 > ; Randall Shortridge > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 4:25 PM > Subject: Andy's suggestion > > >"Those who understand history are condemned to watch other idiots > > repeat it." Peter Lamborn Wilson > > > >I thought that this group would appreciate that one. I got it from > >http://www.deoxy.org/. Take Andy's (AJ's) suggestion and go there now. > > > >proclus

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All, According to the Book of Mormon the Bible: proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and WHEN it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord..." (1Ne. 13:24) and: ...these things go forth from the Jews in PURITY unto the Gentiles..." (1Ne. 13:25). However the passage goes on to say ...AFTER they go forth... from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church... they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious;..." (1Ne. 13:26) Thus the Book of Mormon indicates that the original Jewish followers of Yeshua (Jesus) were right on track, but that gentilization of the movement brought on an apostasy. Any thoughts on this? Rabbi Yosef ***************************************************** * The Jews do understand the things of the prophets,* * and there is none other people that understand the* * things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto * * them, save it be that they are taught after the * * manner of the things of the Jews. (2Ne. 25:5b) * ***************************************************** Jewishness of the Book of Mormon Website: http://deathstar.rutgers.edu/people/kurtn/rabbiyosef/rabbiyosef.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------<< Advertisement >>------------------- Superior connectivity. World class hosting. Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com --------------------------------------------------------- ----- End Included Message -----

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Blayne, Thank you for your kind and thoughful response. The list dosn't look at any of the Meso-American stuff or elemenmts in the Roman Catholic tradition. "The Tradition" is the conscious source of all the world religions that could be called "Melchezedek-ism". The Talmud and Early Mormonism both say that Shem the son of Noah was none other than the Melchezedek (Just King) that Abraham paid Tithes to. The Talmud says that Shem had a Yeshiva (school) that the young Abram was attatched to. Shem/Melchezedek would have been teaching the Noachide religion which would have been the original source of all the tradtions of the world, and the Israelite religion would have been only a sub-set of the older Noachide one. The list of traditions I gave suggest that they all radiated out from a central point...perhaps the Hindu Kush mountians of Afganistan and Kafiristan. Travelers in Central Asia have reported the existance of communities in the mountain valleys that are known as the Sarmoun Brotherhood, but who call themselves simply "The Bees". They claim to hold a tradition that goes back to the Flood. The Morovingian Dynasty also used the Bee as a family emblem. The famous British explorer Sir Richard Burton, the man who found the head-waters of the Nile and was the first European to make the Pilgimage to Mecca, became a Sufi while working for the British East India Company as an Inteligence Agent. Near the end of his career Burton mounted an expedition to the Rocky Mountains for the express purpose of observing the development of Mormonism under Brigham Young. He was pleased with what he saw. Thanks man, Ken > I think their is probably more, but thats a good summery. > > >What's funny is that it dosn't seem > >to me like "Mormonism" is operating > >as a "vehicle" for the transmission > >of "The Tradition" at all. > > > I think its a prepatory vehicle to lead us to search for the true tradtion. > That is certainly how it worked for me after becoming frustrated with the > current Morominism. Had I not been in it though I doubt I would have began > my search with Joseph Smith. > > >It looks to me like "Mormonism" was > >an event...a kind of "science project" > >carried out to produce a carefuly crafted > >"impact" on a specific population, at a > >specific time, for a specific purpose. > > > >It produced us...what's next? > > > Can't be all bad if it produced us > > >Ken > > > > > > > Peace be unto you and your house, Blayne > > %%%%%% > "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the > tranquility of servitude better than the animating > contest of freedom... go home from us in peace. > we ask not your counsels nor arms. May your chains > set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that > ye were our countrymen." %%%%%% > > - Samuel Adams; 1776 > > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/7397 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Love Freedom and Unity >

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I want to second Ken's recommendation of this excellent essay, which shook me to the bone. Heck, I may even take up the BOM one..more... Time! That would be a miracle in itself! Here is the address; http://users.pullman.com/beaumont/QabalahMormon.html thanks Ken proclus

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> Well, I guess my response is very different from yours. > Let me say, Eleazar, that I still haven't read the temple book. I am considering your words. > Read the first part of the temple book. It addresses the topic which > you bring up....secret breakers. Jesus was a secret breaker, JS was a > secret breaker......etc. > This is well taken. We are standing on the shoulders of secret breakers, especially on this list! Think Regardie, Crowley, Toscano, Quinn... and so on. Truly, we are living the 13th article of faith, which may be the the essence of radical mormonism. I am reading another book right now by other secret breakers. It is called The Hiram Key. It is by Freemasons about Freemasonry. I want to comment based on what they had to say about their secret breaking. > Also, the book mentions the difference between 'secret' and 'sacred'. > Now, the (LDS) church will say that the endowment is sacred, not > secret. But, that is what their lips say. Their actions say it is > secret. Perhaps they should say something like "It is sacred and > therefore secret." or something that is more truthful to their actions. > But they say it is NOT SECRET. (emphasis only) So, if they say it is > 'not secret', then what is the big deal? > When I first received the endowment, the word WAS secret. That is how I received it. That is how it was considered for many decades before me. I don't buy this false dichotomy of sacred v. secret. My experience of the endowment is personal. The patriarchal order is a system of distributed authority in my opinion. If you are a parent, you have authority as an heir of God and a co-creator. It is a royal lineage, separate and alien to the crumbling tyrannies of men. The Church does not OWN the endowment.... much the reverse. Don't get me wrong. I consider the Church as the best of all possible organizations. It is led by earnest men of testimony, who want to serve to Lord. Nevertheless, in the days when all tyrannies are cast aside, as the true order emerges, the Church will also pass away. It is our covenants which are eternal. I made a covenant of *secrecy*. > However, the endowment is very secret, but not how people think. It is > because all but a very few who get the endowment do not have a inkling > of its meaning. The meaning is sealed from them because of the way they > approach it. Most take it literally, whereas it is meant to be very > symbolic. It is the old external vs internal thing. Satan externalizes > things and elevates the external to the highest importance. The > Pharasees did the same and the Lord called them children of the devil in > Matthew 23. The words of Jesus in that chapter apply to us as well. > Alas, does not history so oft repeat itself? > Randall, I am amazed to find myself as more of a literalist than you. Who would have thought that the years would have affected us thus ;-}. Now you must know from my discussion with Blayne, that I don't consider our fallen state to be merely a matter of perception or psychology. Rather, we are literally fallen, and captured in a fallen creation. I want to literally elevate this creation externally, not just our perception of it. Let's be operators of the sacred, sublime hackers. Now from Hiram Key (p. 6) we learn that these fine secret breakers will reveal the masonic ceremony. Nevertheless, they do not reveal the means of recognition, which the United Grand Lodge of England considers to be the only protected secrets. I am in a similar situation with these fine secret breaking gentlemen. I will discuss any aspect of the temple ceremonies except the "means of recognition" because that is the strictest sense of the covenant as I received it. It is fasinating that the Church used to rhetoric of sacredness to EXPAND the secrecy. (Note that this was done during a short time, when the Church was *not* led by the Prophet, who was mortally sick. I mentioned this to you earlier.) I am not bound by this rhetoric, but I am bound by the covenant. (ie; I am not bound by what people say about the covenant, rather I am bound by the covenant itself.) I feel that the rhetoric of sacredness has undermined something that was protected. Perhaps future generations will openly discuss these things, but that is not for me to do. Anyway, I consider the evolution of ritual drama and the outer rhetoric to be much more important. What people don't say is interesting, but what they do say is fascinating. The outer elements of the endowment have hardly been touched. I am fascinated by the possibility of their ancient connections which are easier to trace than the secrets. There is more meat in them. For example, in the Golden Dawn they expanded and glamorized the oaths making them even more terrible and dramatic. In doing so, they became "stilted and comical" (to use AJ's words). It distracted from the brilliance of their core teachings. This led to the secret breaking of Regardie. Today, anyone can be a GD adept in the privacy of their own home. What will these secrets mean when everyone on the planet is an initiate, when the sod of the world becomes as holy as temple sod? When the whole earth becomes the dedicated dwelling place of God, will the secrets be shouted from the rooftops? I don't know, but I want to make that day happen. By looking at the history of the endowment, maybe we can get compass points for the future. I do not believe that we can get those compass points by breaking our covenant. proclus

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Well I have stirred the pot a bit. This person's website said that the Book of Mormon was not inspired because it does not obey the gematria! I passed on a few of the links that Ken has given us, and this is the response that I got ;-}. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Gematria in the Book of Mormon Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:55:00 -0500 (EST) From: DGallov Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) To: proclus@mac.com Dear Michael, Thanks for the links. I will certainly check them out. What language was the Book of Mormon written in? Do you know if the "meanings" of the numbers in the Book of Mormon are the same as in the Hebrew? Do you also know whether or not it displays the same "phenomenon of 7's" as in Ivan Panin's work (see link at my web page)? Do you know if it displays the "mathematical phenomenon of the numbers" as displayed in Ed F. Valowe's book on Biblical Mathematics and others? Thanks. I'll take a look at the links you provided and get back with you. Shalom, Diana

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Hi! I am going to bother you all with a little more shop talk. I'm just wrapping up a consulting project that I did to earn a little extra money for the holidays. To make it work, I had to derive the vapor pressure of water as a function of temperature (whew!). Anyway, Eleazar, I want you to know that I have not forgotten your suggestion that this could be the work of the devil. This derivation will help my clients in their work to nail the vapor pressure six points to eternity. Are we scientists taking free agency away from the elements? I still don't know. We could just as well be teaching the elements righteousness! All I can say is that for me, this was a gruelling task. It took time away from the stuff that I love to do, and for money alone. (That is the definition of an whoredom.) Yet, I did get a __huge__ sense of satisfaction when I got the right formula that made everything work. I can't imagine that I am not learning something godlike from this. It sure feels that way. Furthermore, this work will help along the development of new medical devices. Do any of you care to debate this any farther? proclus

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Happy Christ-Mass! I found this website by this guy who's both a Gurdjieff scholar and a Taoist Chi-Kung teacher. He's done some things with Jacob Needleman on 4th Way studies. Check it out: www.breath.org/mountainwind/pr02.htm Ken

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Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > This rocks: > > mormon radical is a concept > mormon concept is a radical > radical is a mormon concept > radical is a concept mormon > radical concept is a mormon > radical mormon is a concept > mormon is a radical concept > mormon is a concept radical > concept is a mormon radical > concept is a radical mormon > concept radical is a mormon > concept mormon is a radical thanx man. I just couldn't resist that little ditteo. BTW, I share your love of Joyce. I just wish I had more time for him. You can't read those books casually. proclus

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Trent, my good friend! It is great to hear from you. I thought that you might chime in here, as you are intimately familiar with the details of my situation. I think that I even remember discussing this with you at the time that I was ordained. It is interesting that the thread continues here, but not on mahonri (except for Eleazar!). I would have thought that these were burning issues for many on that list. Maybe Eleazar could repost his excellent comments here as well. I hope that you have been enjoying the other threads as well ;-}. Reynolds Family wrote: > > Proclus wrote in response to Wayne N. Reeves: > > Wayne N. Reeves wrote: > > > > > And John Taylor prophesied, as only a True Prophet can, of what would > happen to our people if we gave up these Principles as a People. He > prophesied that: > > > > > > (1) The Saints would be rife with adulteries and whoredoms, family > break- ups and sorrows in their failies by virtue of giving up Plural > Marriage. > > > > > > (2) He said many who thoght they had Priesthood, would not have the > Priesthood, because it was not properly conferred on them. > > > > > > (3) Other Prophets prophesied that with the rejection of Consecration > and United Order, we would go into bondage, that the bankers and other > merchants and > > > businessmen would subjugate us and we would be slaves to Babylon. > > > > That is quote from the absolom site. Thanx Wayne. It is a damning > > prophecy, and I have come to suspect that we are under this > > condemnation. Item 2 is particularly troubling to me. I confess that > > this is a big step for me, so please be gentle. > > > > I have never truely felt like I really had the Melcezadec Priesthood. > > This has been extremely disconcerting to me for my whole adult life in > > the Church. This is because I knew the Church to be true. I felt the > > power of the priesthood in my life. I always knew that my Grandpa had > > the priesthood. I had a testimony of it. (Dad's out of the picture.) > > Grandpa ordained me to the Aaronic. He gave me a priesthood lineage > > that went back to Heber J. Grant. I was profoundly disappointed that he > > could not make me an Elder, because I knew that he had the authority. > > Nevertheless, I was assured by my bishop, my good well-meaning bishop, > > that it was his purvue. I trusted this man, because he guided me back > > to Church after a period of inactivity. He performed the ordinance in > > his office. I don't remember the exact words he used. I was > > disappointed that he would not give me a priesthood lineage, which he > > derided as a tradition of the past. I had to function on my ample faith > > that he did something real, but I never really had a testimony of it. > > (Technically you can be a bishop without the melchisadec priesthood, but > > this is not an overt practice of the Church.) > > > Old RoyG. was an interesting character, wasn't he? As I remember at that > time I was probably already gone and serving, but the gospel according to > RoyG. always amazes me. Hee, RoyG=theBishop. Yea, maybe we should write a book of RoyGisms. He was good for me at the time, Jonny on the spot, but by brother didn't fare so well. I still love the man though. > > I suspect that there are many of you out there who have worked through > > all of this in great detail. Tell me, what do you consider as a valid > > ordination? I really want to know. > > > > Based on my faith, I have tried to function as an elder and father in > > Zion. The blessings and ordinances that I have performed for my > > children have always felt like Father's blessings. Actually, I felt > > immense power at these times, but I always felt that it flowed through > > my lineage, not through the Church. I don't have any doubt of my > > authority in the Aaronic Priesthood, but now my son is approaching the > > time of his ordination to the Aaronic priesthood. I am now more > > concerned. > > > I can understand why this might be troublesome. In my weakness, and after > consultation with a higher source (i.e. Pam ), allow me to make a suggestion > or two: > 1. Perform the ordinance by the authority of the Aaronic Priesthood. When > I ordained my son, I was corrected, because I had a Priest in the circle. > I stated "By the power of the Melchizedek Priesthood which "I" bear.", > but when a Priest is in the circle it can be done by the authority of the > Aaronic Priesthood. > > 2. While on my mission I became separated from my line of authority, thanks > to someone that thought they needed my possessions more than I did. I was > able to obtain it through Chruch HQ. I asked for my lines of authority, > they could > only give me my latest. > > 3. If the opportunity ever comes up, ask RoyG. again. If you need backup, > let me know! These are excellent suggestions, which I will take you up on. I love the idea of letting one of my son's friends stand in the circle. I believe that this is a common practice. This should also be an impressive experience for my son, as well, and get him thinking. I will let you know what turns up from Church Headquarters. > > Let me posit a situation. If I do have the aaronic priesthood, do I > > have the authority to confer it on my son? > > You sure do! This is a fantastically simple question and I am still dumbfounded that no one from mahonri (but our own eleazar) could even address this. I am often impressed with the knowledge of the scriptures that they have over there, but I think the meaning is often lost on them. > > If so, there is another > > problem, as the form of this ordinance is now in doubt. What is the old > > traditional way of doing this ordinance so that I may be assured that I > > am passing on the authority? Is it possible to do all of this currently > > within the Church? This is my main problem and a pressing question for > > me. > > > If it can't be answered by the time your son is ordained, then go for it. > You may want to share your course of action with your bishop or Branch > president, and if he has a problem with it, bring your son's favorite > priest into the circle, and go for it. > > > Further, it must be asked if I should seek to be re-ordained in the > > Melchisedec priesthood. This is very problematic, because this cannot > > be done currently within the Church. I still have great doubts about > > anything going on outside the Church, as I indicated to Ken in an > > extended converstaion with Blayne. This is a bit of a dilemma, but I am > > not as concerned, because I feel that my participation in the true order > > ;-} supersedes many of these considerations (except of course that of > > ordination of my son). > > > An interesting question, does this mean that RoyG. would need to be > re-ordained also? I do concur (True order), and am somewhat confident > that your lineage can be obtained for your comfort. The basis of this dilemma is the John Taylor prophesy. Essentially he said that if the Church abandoned polygamy and the united order, that we would be under the above condemnation. I feel strongly that we ARE under that condemnation. You can see many of the later actions of the Church as responses to this difficult situation which has emerged. For example, look at the relatively recent strong injunctions against debt. Also, we are now the good strong family church. This is a recent development, the institution of the Church rising ironically to support family structure which was weakened by the abandonment of polygamy. Of course, this is the fault of the people alone, who wanted to be good americans like the rest of the country. "Give us a king, like unto other peoples", and that is exactly what the prophets gave them, despite the warnings regarding a lost generation, whoredoms, and abominations. What we have lost is a piece of our mormon heretage, and we are now paying the price for our short-sightedness. We are given a bandaid. Did you know that my mom is a polygamist? Yea, she married my step-father in the temple, but a temple divorce is no longer required. I am not speaking dishonourably of my mother, rather I consider that she is a noble and great one. These actions of hers confirm that she is doing her best to live up to her heretage, given this challenging situation that we have been handed by our post-pioneer ancestors. >As much as > genealogical lines are important, so are those lines of authority that > traces your authority back to the master. > > Trent You said a mouthful! ;-} proclus

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KenShaw007 wrote: > > Proclus, > > I put KenShaw007 back but I had to > get rid of LVX007 to do it (I kind of > liked it). > > Nothing's come through from rm-l yet. rm-l is slow right now. Someone hacked the server, and it had to be restored from backup, because the hacker corrupted some files. Maybe they hacked in again last night. It is also possible that your name was deleted when your email bounced. You may want do contact the listOp directly and make sure that you are still on the list. I brought this up in one of my posts, but I haven't heard back about it. I consider this hacking of the server as an act of terrorism; very immature and stupid. It appears that someone is disgruntled by the changes on the mahonri. These changes are fine with me, and if someone is disgruntled, all the better. For example, Todd actually suggested ressurecting the space mormons site! Enoch144 suggested that rm-l should be called the radiant mormons list! I think that we are still mostly in good company over there. (Joe suggested that it should be called Jahninah-l! hehee, good one Joe. ). Another explanation of this hacking is that someone is trying to get the email address list itself. That could be interesting too, but I consider it as less likely. BTW, do you still have the mutantRM's list? Here it is in case you lost it in the name change. Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , Don Bradley , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , KenShaw007 > > I quess I felt like we had transmuted > and flown free from the cacoon of > Mormonism...or at least the ghetto > of "Fundamentalism". Yea, I've felt like that for a very long time. May I extend your analogy, though. I also feel that we are like bees, with a huge commitment and investiment in the store of cacoons. As a parent, this has a particular meaning to me. > I've met a woman that I want to marry. > I'm starting fresh at every level. > > Thank you Brother, > Kenneth Shaw I love Leary's cacoon analogy as well. The ants work very hard in a highly stratified caccon society, but when the time comes, a new type of ant appears. These are big, beautiful, sexual, ants, who sprout wings and fly away to start their own colonies out in the great unknown. I wish you my very best blessing, Ken. proclus

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Hey folks. I have some more Hiram Key ruminations. I just finished the section regarding Abraham in Sumer. I was flabergasted to read that the Celts were Sumerians who migrated to central Europe, wandering around abit, then landing of course in the British Isles and Briton. This is stated as fact with no references, as if the authors have no idea what a controvery surrounds the origins of the Celts! Does anyone out there know what these guys are talking about? If this happens again, I may begin to loose confidence in their research. Anyway, I'm knocking around this idea of Sumer as a kind of proto- lost ten tribes bearing civilization across the land, when I thought that there might be a link to Tibet. I'm sure there must be some kind of documentation regarding this. Are the Germans the only ones who understand this stuff? Unfortunately, my german is just too rusty for this. Maybe I will brush up in my next life ;-}. So, if you guys have any enlightenment to give me at all regarding these two topics, I would appreciate anything that you had to give me. proclus

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Proclus, I may have annoyed Samuel somehow and been taken off rm-l. I'll try to get ahold of him and see what's going on. I'm stunned and awed by the depth and commitment of your vision. After a certain point in my life I came to the conclusion I needed to focus on the Hinayana level because my big ideas about working as a Boddhisatva were probably delusional. I had met WAY too many people who were perfectly convinced that they were "somebody important". The Sumer stuff from "Hiram Key" sounds nutty. That kind of unfounded assertion doesn't bode well for the credibility of the rest of the book. The real question is the Tuatha de Dannan and the Megalith culture. Nibley sees the astronomical Megalith culture as STARTING in Britian and diffusing East until it flowers in Sumer and Egypt. I've seen arguments that stone stuctures in Scotland shaped kind of like beehives are the oldest man made structures found to date. Please keep us posted about the book. Thanks man, Ken

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KenShaw007 wrote: > > Proclus, > > I may have annoyed Samuel somehow > and been taken off rm-l. I'll try to get > ahold of him and see what's going on. He routinely and automatically removes people from the list when he gets a bounced email. I'm sure that this is the only problem. > I'm stunned and awed by the depth and > commitment of your vision. After a certain > point in my life I came to the conclusion > I needed to focus on the Hinayana level > because my big ideas about working as a > Boddhisatva were probably delusional. > > I had met WAY too many people who were > perfectly convinced that they were "somebody > important". Ouch! Actually I am awed to be in the presence of you all. I believe that there is no question that this group cannot answer with a little cooperation and work. This radical mormon FAQ is the merest indication of what we could do. We are important. ;-} > The Sumer stuff from "Hiram Key" sounds > nutty. That kind of unfounded assertion > doesn't bode well for the credibility of the > rest of the book. The real question is the > Tuatha de Dannan and the Megalith culture. > > Nibley sees the astronomical Megalith culture > as STARTING in Britian and diffusing East > until it flowers in Sumer and Egypt. I have much to learn in this area, but if I understand Nibley's point correctly, I would have to dispute it. The eastward diffusion would have to coincide with the Celtic invasion, but that would be too late to diffuse to Sumer. Yes, it appears that the Sumerians had sail boats very early, but did they sail to Britain? This seems doubtful to me as the existance of sail boats does not imply seafaring. Seafaring requires astronomy. You see, there is a chicken and egg problem here. I've never seen any evidence that the druids had ships. I am convinced that the depth of astronomical knowledge in the mesopotamian basin, and it's pattern of diffusion implies that it was discovered there. Perhaps the druids discovered it independently. I don't want to overstate my reservations about the book. I think Sumer could be the very cradle of western civilization. There are many parallels between the Abraham in Sumer arguments between Nibley and Hiram Key. This statement regarding the Celts is cause for worry. I wish they had said more about it, rather than their flippant remark. > I've seen > arguments that stone stuctures in Scotland > shaped kind of like beehives are the oldest > man made structures found to date. This is interesting. If there were some other support for this very early diffusion of knowledge, such as linguistic evidence, perhaps the case could be made. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the language of the pre-celtic natives of Britain. > Please keep us posted about the book. > > Thanks man, > Ken Will do. This is all very interesting to me. proclus

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> >"On that very day and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this > >Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to > >mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go down to destruction." > > > > Cast this quote in a modern light: > "The moment we consent to give the priesthood to women, the church must go down > to destruction." > > It seems that every pronouncement of exclusion eventually ends up being > overturned, then looked at with disbelief by some future generation. So what > are the current exclusions that our grandchildren will look on with shock and > horror? > > -AJ Like unto us. I think that this is a brilliant analogy. If all exclusions are destined to be dissolved, can Mormons deal with that? I wonder. In Boston we are privileged to have the fellow who is fighting for access to women's only health clubs. I noted that the national organization of women has gotten behind his campaign. The health club is now, subject to a court order, scampering to provide "facilities" for him in the club. In America today, public organizations cannot discriminate. Maybe Mormonism must become a discreet private club! ;-} proclus

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Great stuff, Ken. Your take on the judaica is refreshing. Do you have any idea about the age and origin of this material? I have more homework to do. Where is my midrash... ;-} proclus

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Ken Shaw wrote: > > ----- Begin Included Message ----- > > >From jewishbom@coollist.com Sat Dec 20 13:19:25 1997 > Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:31:13 -0500 (EST) > X-Authentication-Warning: one.astraweb.com: coollist set sender to jewishbom@coollist.com using -f > To: jewishbom@coollist.com > From: "Yosef benYehudah" > Content-Type: text/plain > Subject: Endowment in Midrash? > Reply-To: jewishbom@coollist.com > Content-Length: 3360 > > All, > > In light of the Temple Endowment, I thought you would take intrest in > the following which is attributed to Rabbi Akiba in MIDRASH ALPHA BETA: > (This was first brought to my attention by Ken Shaw.) > > In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, takes the > keys of Gehenna (Hell) and, in front of all the pious > gives them to Michael and Gabriel, and says to them: > "Go and open the gates of Gehenna, and bring them out > from Gehenna... > > Instantly Michael and Gabriel go and open the forty > thousand gates of Gehenna, and bring them up from > Gehenna. And how do they bring them up from Gehenna? > ... In that hour they GET HOLD OF THE HAND of each one > of the wicked and pull them up, like a man who raises his > fellow man and pulls him from s pit... And Gabriel and > Michael stand over them in that hour, and WASH THEM, and > ANOINT THEM WITH OIL, and heal them of the wounds of > Gehenna, and clothe them in beutiful and good garments, > and TAKE THEM BY THEIR HAND, and bring them before the > Holy One, blessed be He, and before all the pious, all > spruced and cleaned up... > > And when they reach the gate of the Garden of Eden, first > Gabriel and Michael enter and take counsel with the Holy > One, blessed be He. The Holy One, blessed be He, answers > them and says: "LET THEM ENTER and see My glory." > (Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba, BhM 3:27-29) > > Amazingly the midrash goes on to say: > > The Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future CALL > all of the pious BY THEIR NAMES, and give them a CUP > of elixir of life in their hands so that they should > live and endure forever... And the Holy One, blessed > be He, will in the future REVEAL to all the pious in > the World to Come the Ineffable NAME with which new > heavens and a new earth can be created, SO THAT ALL > OF THEM SHOULD BE ABLE TO CREATE NEW WORLDS... The > Holy One, blessed be He, will GIVE every pious three > hundred and forty WORLDS in INHERITANCE in the World > to Come... to all the pious the Holy One, blessed be > He, WILL GIVE A SIGN and a part in the goodly reward, > and everlasting renown, glory and greatness and praise, > a crown encompassed in holiness, and royalty, equal to > those of all the pious in the World to Come. The sign > will be the cup of life which the Holy One, blessed be He, > will give to the Messiah and to the pious in the Future > to come. > (Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba, BhM 3:32) > > Thought you would find this interesting. > > I thought I would throw it out and let everyone point out parallels that > they can find. > > Rabbi Yosef > > ***************************************************** > * The Jews do understand the things of the prophets,* > * and there is none other people that understand the* > * things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto * > * them, save it be that they are taught after the * > * manner of the things of the Jews. (2Ne. 25:5b) * > ***************************************************** > > Jewishness of the Book of Mormon Website: > http://deathstar.rutgers.edu/people/kurtn/rabbiyosef/rabbiyosef.html

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> He will GIVE every pious three > hundred and forty WORLDS in INHERITANCE in the World > to Come... 340 = book (Sepher), sign, name (Shem) and, 3+4+0=7 = riches, power, fish. Kinda makes you wonder, if someone know we were coming. ;-} proclus

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Proclus, This Midrash is found in Raphiel Patai's startling book "The Messiah Texts". Rabbi Akiva founded post-Temple Rabbinic Judaism 1900 years ago. Ken

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> giving women a "MAN"s priesthood is as out of order as ordaining men to the matriarchal priesthood... > This is going to be one more step down for the church. > Men destroyed any vestiges of Matriarchal authority... then offer the women a piece of their Patriarchal > authority as a privledge... too sad... what they need is to have their own authority restored fully... > Peace... > Samuel Yes but back to the premise, How can we maintain separate priesthoods in a world where all boundaries are dissolving? The previous generation of feminists have already spilt the milk, so to speak. This is the world that the Church exists in. May I ask, Is giving the priesthood to blacks a "step down"? I actually agree with you Samuel. It would be inappropriate to give women the man's priesthood. I am a lover of diversity. Diversity is preserved by stratification and lines of difference. It is also preserved by treating others with humility and repect. Ashoreth was once the the consort of God in semite theology. I'm studying this stuff again right now. In that world women had authority. Our right hand has cut off our left hand. It is sad that we have lost something so beautiful. We did not give our priestesses proper respect, and now they are gone. Actually they are not gone. They are merely hidden in the rectilinear precincts of the temple. They are protected from a world that destroys beautiful diversity (think Michael Jackson). When the whole earth is made holy, we will have our priestesses again. We will have our Ashoreth again. I am thirsty for that day. proclus

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> > >"On that very day and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this > > >Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to > > >mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go down to destruction." > > > > > > > Cast this quote in a modern light: > > "The moment we consent to give the priesthood to women, the church must go down > > to destruction." > > > > It seems that every pronouncement of exclusion eventually ends up being > > overturned, then looked at with disbelief by some future generation. So what > > are the current exclusions that our grandchildren will look on with shock and > > horror? > > > > -AJ > > Like unto us. I think that this is a brilliant analogy. If all exclusions > are destined to be dissolved, can Mormons deal with that? I wonder. In > Boston we are privileged to have the fellow who is fighting for access to > women's only health clubs. I noted that the national organization of women > has gotten behind his campaign. The health club is now, subject to a court > order, scampering to provide "facilities" for him in the club. In America > today, public organizations cannot discriminate. Maybe Mormonism must become > a discreet private club! ;-} > > proclus

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May the Lord grant me the serenity to acept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can change, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those I had to kill because they pissed me off.

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Samuel Wrote: >giving women a "MAN"s priesthood is as out of order as ordaining men to the matriarchal >priesthood... >This is going to be one more step down for the church. >Men destroyed any vestiges of Matriarchal authority... then offer the women a piece of their >Patriarchal >authority as a privledge... too sad... what they need is to have their own authority restored fully... >Peace... >Samuel This is a line of reasoning that I have not run across, and I think I like it. Most of those who campaign for women to get the priesthood are really after the BENEFITS of the priesthood. Those benefits fall mostly into the categories of Spiritual Powers and Institutional Authority. Samuel's comment open up the idea of granting authority without 'priesthood' and allowing that spiritual powers are lied to righteousness (and not ordainment). And then the entire feminist campaign for female ordainment evaporates in a cloud of fulfillment. Or maybe not. Or is Samuel suggesting a parallel and separate Preistesshood, with its own structure, authority and powers?

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> See anything wrong with this picture? What happened? > > All is not well in Zion. > > Eleazar. I'm positing a situation where the Church never abandoned the United Order, or polygamy, but stayed faithful to the words of the prophets. Deseret would be a country, if we had survived the onslaught of the US Army (doubtful). We would not be under any of these curses. Maybe there would be more indians around, because manifest destiny would have been derailed. I am thinking that we have failed the Lord. In that world blacks could still be excluded from the priesthood. We would not have these nagging doubts about the priesthood in the Church. Joseph Smith would still be a visible tenant of the temple. Heh, maybe there would be a Deseret seat in the UN security council! Anyway, I'm just dreaming. Maybe I will write a novel. proclus

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"Prehistoric Peoples and Cultures: CIVILIZATIONS: The example of the Middle East: ELEMENTS OF CIVILIZED CULTURE: The alphabet. Of all the accomplishments of the ancient Middle East, the invention of the alphabet is probably the greatest. While pre-alphabetic systems of writing in the Old World became steadily more phonetic, they were still exceedingly cumbersome, and the syllabic systems that gradually replaced them remained complex and difficult. In the early Hyksos period (17th century BC) the Northwestern Semites living in Egypt adapted hieroglyphic characters--in at least two slightly differing forms of letters--to their own purposes. Thus was developed the earliest known purely consonantal alphabet, imitated in northern Syria, with the addition of two letters to designate vowels used with the glottal catch. " That is a little dittie I found on a web search. If Abraham...Joseph were Shepherd Kings, this could provide the rational of reformed egyptian as phonetic hieroglyphics. This reminds me that Nibley mentioned the possibility of Abraham as shepherd king. I will check it out tonight. I mentioned this to a Jewish friend of mine, who thought it plausible. He said that in jewish circles Jacobs immigration to Egypt is dated around the time of the Hyksos. Incongruently, the period following the the expusion of the hyksos from Egypt, was one of Egypt's greatest eras. It may be that the seed of the exodus story is really the heroic escape of Joseph's descendents with a few fellow canaanite slaves. Egyptians apparently went to great lengths to recover slaves, who were mostly semitic. So, this escape then became the national story, like the Mayflower legend in America. There is a respected book about all of this called "Egypt, Canaan, and Isreal in Ancient Times" by DB Redford. I'll check it out tonite. In this light, a manassahite who writes heiroglyphics does not seem strange. BTW, A similar situation existed at Elbe, where we see Canaanites writing their own language, but in Sumerian cuneiform script. Considering that some of the Elben tablets date to 3000 BC, we get an idea about the age of the Hebrew language, which is very close to that found in the Elben tablets. The name of one of the last Elben kings is a cognate of the word hebrew, and is mentioned in the Bible as an ancestor of the Hebrews (Eber). Read about it here; http://marlowe.wimsey.com/~rshand/streams/thera/canaan.html I am trying to figure out a good way to give this sight a link. I keep bumping into it. There is excellent info, but I don't like the front door much. proclus

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Samuel Wrote: >giving women a "MAN"s priesthood is as out of order as ordaining men to the matriarchal >priesthood... >This is going to be one more step down for the church. >Men destroyed any vestiges of Matriarchal authority... then offer the women a piece of their >Patriarchal >authority as a privledge... too sad... what they need is to have their own authority restored fully... >Peace... >Samuel This is a line of reasoning that I have not run across, and I think I like it. Most of those who campaign for women to get the priesthood are really after the BENEFITS of the priesthood. Those benefits fall mostly into the categories of Spiritual Powers and Institutional Authority. Samuel's comment open up the idea of granting authority without 'priesthood' and allowing that spiritual powers are lied to righteousness (and not ordainment). And then the entire feminist campaign for female ordainment evaporates in a cloud of fulfillment. Or maybe not. Or is Samuel suggesting a parallel and separate Preistesshood, with its own structure, authority and powers?

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Funny coincidence. Today the puzzle in the Boston Phoenix paper is deciphering hieroglyphics, but the characters are on two stone tablets like the law of the Lord. Here are some of the words; heaven, throne, alter, mirror, tunic, jawbone, breastplate. ;-} proclus Michael Love wrote: > > "Prehistoric Peoples and Cultures: CIVILIZATIONS: The example of the > Middle East: ELEMENTS OF CIVILIZED CULTURE: The alphabet. > > > Of all the accomplishments of the ancient Middle East, the invention of > the > alphabet is probably the greatest. While pre-alphabetic systems of > writing in > the Old World became steadily more phonetic, they were still exceedingly > cumbersome, and the syllabic systems that gradually replaced them > remained > complex and difficult. In the early Hyksos period (17th century BC) the > Northwestern Semites living in Egypt adapted hieroglyphic characters--in > at > least two slightly differing forms of letters--to their own purposes. > Thus was > developed the earliest known purely consonantal alphabet, imitated in > northern Syria, with the addition of two letters to designate vowels > used with > the glottal catch. " > > That is a little dittie I found on a web search. If Abraham...Joseph > were Shepherd Kings, this could provide the rational of reformed > egyptian as phonetic hieroglyphics. This reminds me that Nibley > mentioned the possibility of Abraham as shepherd king. I will check it > out tonight. I mentioned this to a Jewish friend of mine, who thought > it plausible. He said that in jewish circles Jacobs immigration to > Egypt is dated around the time of the Hyksos. Incongruently, the period > following the the expusion of the hyksos from Egypt, was one of Egypt's > greatest eras. It may be that the seed of the exodus story is really > the heroic escape of Joseph's descendents with a few fellow canaanite > slaves. Egyptians apparently went to great lengths to recover slaves, > who were mostly semitic. So, this escape then became the national > story, like the Mayflower legend in America. There is a respected book > about all of this called "Egypt, Canaan, and Isreal in Ancient Times" by > DB Redford. I'll check it out tonite. In this light, a manassahite who > writes heiroglyphics does not seem strange. > > BTW, A similar situation existed at Elbe, where we see Canaanites > writing their own language, but in Sumerian cuneiform script. > Considering that some of the Elben tablets date to 3000 BC, we get an > idea about the age of the Hebrew language, which is very close to that > found in the Elben tablets. The name of one of the last Elben kings is > a cognate of the word hebrew, and is mentioned in the Bible as an > ancestor of the Hebrews (Eber). Read about it here; > > http://marlowe.wimsey.com/~rshand/streams/thera/canaan.html > > I am trying to figure out a good way to give this sight a link. I keep > bumping into it. There is excellent info, but I don't like the front > door much. > > proclus

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>Funny coincidence. Today the puzzle in the Boston Phoenix paper is >deciphering hieroglyphics, but the characters are on two stone tablets >like the law of the Lord. Here are some of the words; heaven, throne, >alter, mirror, tunic, jawbone, breastplate. ;-} Just like the June 6, 1944 New York Times daily crossword included Juno, Gold, Utah and Overlord... But I really wanted to Comment on Ken Shaw's observations about how the temple ceremony may parallel other things. I would not be so quick to attribute too much to the parallels. After all, if you don't take somebody BY THE HAND, how else do you lead them somewhere? Also, the motif of washing and anointing is all over the place...you can't swing a dead initiate by the tail without bumping into it a dozen times. What these parallels say to me is that Joseph Smith tapped into the same stream that all successfull initiations spring from, and successful initiations tend to draw from a core group of themes. Among these themes are: -The magical name -Cleansing (actual or symbolic, of the body or spirit) -Death and rebirth -Secret symbols, names or other keys -Passing from the common world to a higher world or state -The list could go on...... -AJ

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>Beth any wrote: >> >> <<<<<<<<<



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