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Subject: qaalif awakens Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 20:54:00 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus I'm kicking around the idea that we could have an outer circle which is not directed at the mormon community. There are a number of issues that I think need to be addressed. For example, can an environmentalist (or a liberal) attain godhood? How would the Sufis answer this question? As you can see, it is not at all in focus yet, but I have put up a webpage to help us sort through it. Let me know what you think. Any ideas are welcome. Here is the link. http://members.tripod.com/~qaalif Let me remind you that I am thick skinned and respond well to criticism. Don't hold back, or someone else will get credit for your idea ;-}. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: qaalif awakens Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:17:49 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: Michael Love CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 So, what are the other questions? On being a liberal, enviromentalist, etc., and attanining salvation.... Since salvation comes only by a person coming unto Christ, it does not matter what you do otherwise. But, to do that (come unto Christ) we have to remove everything from our mind. A person who's mind is single to Gods will not likely identify with any earthly organization or philosophy, since he would be above that (ie. Gods thoughts are higher than mans thoughts). I used to say "I am a mormon" or "I am a conservative", etc., etc., but now identify with none and have tried to cut myself off from all earthly organizations. I will tell you that I am no longer a Replulican, or a conservative, or a Mormon, or a boy scout, or a union member, etc., etc. Now, I just say "I am". It is also interesting that many earthly organizations and philosophies use force as a means to implement their ideas. It is the same with "conservatives" as well as "liberals", whom appear to be opposites, but are not. Now, some will say that liberals are for free agency, but I have found that many who call themselves liberal are not. I've seen many who refer to themselves as enviromentalists work for more laws to protect the environment and they will do all kinds of things to force compliance, even to the point of being "in your face" rude. Strip everything down and they are Luciferarian because it is all about force. The conservatives are the same way, only that the (small) ideas they want implemented are different from their brothers, the liberals. I think that it really comes down to the difference between force (Lucifer) or long-suffering (Christ). We need to look at ourselves and ask what we are doing. I hope this doesn't degenerate into a "conservative" vs "liberal" discussion, because I will be on the outside, not caring much for either one. ;-) It is all about distractions... These distractions take you away from Christ. None bring salvation. Randall/Eleazar Michael Love wrote: > I'm kicking around the idea that we could have an outer circle which > is > not directed at the mormon community. There are a number of issues > that > I think need to be addressed. For example, can an environmentalist > (or > a liberal) attain godhood? How would the Sufis answer this question? > > As you can see, it is not at all in focus yet, but I have put up a > webpage to help us sort through it. Let me know what you think. Any > ideas are welcome. Here is the link. > > http://members.tripod.com/~qaalif > > Let me remind you that I am thick skinned and respond well to > criticism. Don't hold back, or someone else will get credit for your > idea ;-}. > > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: qaalif awakens Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:17:49 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: Michael Love CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 So, what are the other questions? On being a liberal, enviromentalist, etc., and attanining salvation.... Since salvation comes only by a person coming unto Christ, it does not matter what you do otherwise. But, to do that (come unto Christ) we have to remove everything from our mind. A person who's mind is single to Gods will not likely identify with any earthly organization or philosophy, since he would be above that (ie. Gods thoughts are higher than mans thoughts). I used to say "I am a mormon" or "I am a conservative", etc., etc., but now identify with none and have tried to cut myself off from all earthly organizations. I will tell you that I am no longer a Replulican, or a conservative, or a Mormon, or a boy scout, or a union member, etc., etc. Now, I just say "I am". It is also interesting that many earthly organizations and philosophies use force as a means to implement their ideas. It is the same with "conservatives" as well as "liberals", whom appear to be opposites, but are not. Now, some will say that liberals are for free agency, but I have found that many who call themselves liberal are not. I've seen many who refer to themselves as enviromentalists work for more laws to protect the environment and they will do all kinds of things to force compliance, even to the point of being "in your face" rude. Strip everything down and they are Luciferarian because it is all about force. The conservatives are the same way, only that the (small) ideas they want implemented are different from their brothers, the liberals. I think that it really comes down to the difference between force (Lucifer) or long-suffering (Christ). We need to look at ourselves and ask what we are doing. I hope this doesn't degenerate into a "conservative" vs "liberal" discussion, because I will be on the outside, not caring much for either one. ;-) It is all about distractions... These distractions take you away from Christ. None bring salvation. Randall/Eleazar Michael Love wrote: > I'm kicking around the idea that we could have an outer circle which > is > not directed at the mormon community. There are a number of issues > that > I think need to be addressed. For example, can an environmentalist > (or > a liberal) attain godhood? How would the Sufis answer this question? > > As you can see, it is not at all in focus yet, but I have put up a > webpage to help us sort through it. Let me know what you think. Any > ideas are welcome. Here is the link. > > http://members.tripod.com/~qaalif > > Let me remind you that I am thick skinned and respond well to > criticism. Don't hold back, or someone else will get credit for your > idea ;-}. > > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: qaalif awakens-Green Christianity Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 22:35:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Howdy! I know this is kinda' off topic, but I'm so stunned by this I have to share it. There is an inner relationship between Kabbalah, Sufism and the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Orthodox doctrine of Theosis (Divinization) has been noticed and commented on before in it's relationship to the Mormon Doctrine of divinization. But as I read this it sounds SO much like Brigham Young that I have to reconsider all my views on the "apostacy" of the first century. Please take a look at the attached text file. Ken Shaw LIFE AFTER DEATH Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos IX.Eternal life 1.The Kingdom of God 2.The renewal of creation 3.The continuing development in the age to come *Epilogue *The Feast of the Kingdom [ BACK ] IX ETERNAL LIFE After the last judgement, which will take place at the Second Coming of Christ, eternal life will begin. This will be experienced in two ways, as eternal Paradise and eternal Hell. St. Maximus the Confessor would call Paradise "eternal well-being?and Hell "eternal ill-being". In any case they are both "eternal being", but they differ as to the kind of experience, according to the person's condition. In the passage about the coming judgement Christ speaks of eternal life. "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life? (Matt. 25, 46). This means that the person does not end in death, nor yet with the future tribunal, but life continues even after that. The sinner is not annihilated after the judgement, but will live eternally, set ablaze by the energy of divine grace. Naturally this is the result of freedom of choice. Although Hell too is eternal, the term "eternal life? is used more in connection with the life in Christ, because a life far from God is in reality also called death. Therefore Christ said: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent? (Jn. 17, 3). Knowledge of God and communion with Jesus Christ are, and are called, eternal life. Another saying of Christ should also be seen in this light: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life? (Jn. 5, 24). The present life is called death, while transcendence of death and communion with God are regarded as real life. Eternal life is closely connected with man's salvation and participation in God's glory. The Apostle Paul, remembering the hardships and trials which he endured for the glory of God, wrote to his disciple Timothy: "Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory? (2 Tim.. 2, 10). The Apostle Peter says the same thing: "But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen and settle you? (1 Pet. 5, 10). So the term eternal life is applied more to the communion and unity of man with God, to participation in the eternal God and the vision of the uncreated Light. It is in this light that we shall look at what follows. Again it must be emphasised that even the life of sinners and Hell are eternal, because the souls of sinners too are immortal by the grace of God. But here we are applying the term eternal life mainly in the soteriological sense, as communion and participation in the glory of God. In the rest of the chapter we shall look at three points. First, what is the eternal Kingdom of God; second, what we mean when we speak of a renewal of creation; and third, that the life of the righteous in Paradise will have a continuing development. [ BACK ] 1. The Kingdom of God In another chapter of this book there is a thorough analysis of just what is and is called the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore we do not propose to explain it further here. In the preceding chapter we looked at things relating to Paradise and in the next one we shall speak of the Kingdom of God and participation in it through time. Here we shall simply underline a few truths which should be borne in mind. In Holy Scripture and the patristic texts the terms Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Paradise, and eternal life are identified. They are synonymous terms which mean man's participation in the glory of God. This begins in this life, continues in the life after death and will be fulfilled in the life after the Second Coming of Christ, because in the meantime the bodies of men will also be resurrected. St. Symeon the New Theologian, speaking of the Kingdom of God, says that the Kingdom of Heaven is "God Himself in possession". The phrase is quite expressive. And indeed we are assured that man will see this wealth of the glory of the Kingdom of Heaven. The deified man is called "the one who sees such glory"1. Participation in the grace of God is called participation in the Kingdom. Again St. Symeon the New Theologian says expressively: "The Kingdom of Heaven is participation in the Holy Spirit"2. Christ, who will appear at the Second Coming, is characterised as "our very dear and sweetest king Jesus Christ and God". The existence of this heavenly King and man's union with Him, which is followed by Christ's shining in the saints and every saint's shining in Him, is a vision and sharing of the Kingdom. I may be permitted to use the words of St. Symeon t he New Theologian, because it cannot be said differently. For the righteous the Kingdom of Heaven is "as if everywhere one will see only the king of the universe; he will be present to each one and each one will be present to him, he will shine in each one and each will shine in him"3. It seems, then, that what is called the Kingdom of God is the mutual interchange between Christ and the believer. Christ will dwell within the righteous person, He will glorify him, and the glorified person will be illuminated, being in communion with the divine and uncreated Light. The Kingdom of God is not a created reality, it is not a worldly condition, but participation in the glory of God. This needs to be said, because today many interpretations are given for the Kingdom of God. And we think that the distortion of the meaning of the Kingdom of God has dreadful consequences in our spiritual and social life. Moralisation is not unrelated to this theological distortion. St. Andrew, bishop of Crete, teaches that the Kingdom of God is to see and be seen by God. And St. John of Damascus, speaking about Christ's transfiguration, which is an experience of the Kingdom of God, says that in the age to come "we shall always be in the Lord, seeing Christ shining in the light of divinity"4. All the holy Fathers move in the same perspective. St. Gregory Palamas, who can be characterised as the theologian of the uncreated Light, refers to the "perfection of the age to come". Using the words of John the Evangelist that when Christ is revealed we shall be like Him, he says that then we shall be children of God, "seeing and being touched by the brightness of God and being illuminated by the dawning of Christ's glory, and shining with Him"5. The saints will shine with the brightness of Christ and will shine with Him. Thus the glory of God will also become the glory of the righteous, with the difference that the glory of God is natural, while that of men will be by grace, a pngt of God. Although there will be a difference in participation in the glory, according to the spiritual condition of the righteous, nevertheless in the Kingdom of Heaven all the classes of men will be abolished, since there will be no "teachers and pupils". Indeed in the Kingdom of God "the order of those who teach and those who learn?will be abolished6. The Fathers continually emphasise the truth that the experience of the Kingdom of Heaven begins in this life. The enjoyment of the blessings to come "begins here and now"7. We shall not continue longer on this point, because the reader will find a larger analysis of this subject in other chapters of the present book. What must again be emphasised is that when we speak of the Kingdom of God we mean participation in the uncreated grace of the Triune God. And since this grace is shared as Light and thus man is glorified, therefore also the Kingdom of God is participation in the glory of God. [ BACK ] 2. The renewal of creation It is a clear teaching of the Church that the creation is the work of God, that it was corrupted through the fall of man and that it will also be freed from this corruption. In the tradition of the Church we speak more of creation than of nature. The word nature refers to something natural, while the word creation indicates what is created, something produced which did not exist before. Thus in the Church one does not speak of natural and metaphysical, but of created and uncreated. The uncreated has no beginning or end of creation. The uncreated is self-existent, while the created has a beginning of creation, but God wants it to have no end, even though by its nature it should end some time. The difference between created and uncreated is enormous. They are not at all alike. The only thing that created and uncreated have in common is the Godman Christ, in the Person of Whom the divine has been united with human nature, that is to say, the uncreated with the created. According to St. Maximus the Confessor, only the infinite Being, all-powerful and creative of all things, is simple, unique, unqualified and peaceful. In uncreated Being, that is, in God, there is nothing composite. By contrast, created nature is composite, consisting as it does of being and occurrence, and it is in need of divine Providence8. God made the whole of creation and preserves it by His uncreated Providence. The sublime Providence of God "is the salvation of all creation"9. To be sure, we must not forget that the term creation refers to the angels, the demons, mankind and irrational creation. It is a term given to all creation, rational and irrational. We know that God created the noetic world first, then the sensient and material world and afterwards man, who is a union of the two worlds, noetic and sensient. So man is the summing up of all creation, the microcosm within the macrocosm, or to express it better, the macrocosm, from the point of view of value, within the microcosm. But at this point, when we are speaking of the creation and its renewal, we shall mean rather the material and irrational creation, which will be renewed in the age to come by the Providence and grace of God. For this interests us in our study. The Bible speaks of the fall of creation, but also of its liberation from corruption. A classic passage is in the Apostle Paul's epistle to the Romans. We shall quote it in full because it is very characteristic and will help us in the later elaboration of the subject. "The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labours with birth pangs together until now? (Rom. 8, 19-22).. In this passage there are several interesting points. First, that the world of the senses, the material creation, is called created and not natural, because it is connected with the existence of a creator and therefore is not imperishable and eternal, as some philosophers think. Secondly, creation was subjected to corruption, not of its own will, since creation has no will or freedom, but because of the fall of man. Man swept the whole of creation into corruption. Thirdly, creation groans and travails with man and yearns and hopes for liberation. Fourthly, the earnest expectation of it refers to the revelation of the sons of God. In so far as man was the cause of its fall, its renewal should come from man. Naturally, when we speak of man we mean the Godman who is a child of God. Fifth, the assurance is given that the whole creation will be freed from slavery to corruption and will be brought into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. This means that the entire creation will enjoy the blessings which will come forth when man attains participation in the glory of God. This passage shows the conception and teaching of the Church about the so-called ecological problem and the renewal of creation. The reason for the fall is insubordinate and disobedient man and the cause of the renewal is the son of God by grace, deified man. He will liberate it and renew it.. In fact the grace of God, through man, will transform irrational creation as well. Anyone who looks for the renewal of creation apart from deified man is labouring in vain. The person who is united with Christ is new, a new creation, and that is why he becomes an occasion of glory. The Apostle Paul says: "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation? (2 Cor. 5, 17). The Apostle Peter, referring to the end of the world, does not speak of a final and complete destruction, but of renewal and transformation, saying: "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells? (2 Pet. 3, 13). Here we see clearly that renewal of creation is being spoken of, and not ruin and destruction. We shall approach this theme more analytically a little later, when we deal with the teachings of the Fathers of the Church. In studying the scriptural passages we must examine h o w creation fell and in what its renewal consists, as the holy Fathers of the Church analyse it. In making this analysis we must always have in our view the passages from Scripture quoted above. At first we must speak of the fall of creation. St. Gregory of Sinai says that creation was not made changeable and corruptible but was subjected, unwillingly, to corruption by Adam's fall10. In order to present this truth, St. Macarius of Egypt uses a beautiful image. He says that just as when a king is captured, his servants and ministers necessarily follow after him, so also when Adam fell, who was lord and king of all the creatures that served him, the creation which served him and ministered to him was included in his fall11. The tragicalness of creation after the fall of Adam and its slipping into decay is beautifully described by Symeon the New Theologian. He writes that after Adam's expulsion from Paradise the whole creation did not want to look at man and was possessed by anger against him. Creation did not want to be subject to him. The sun did not want to shine, nor the moon to send out light, the stars to gleam, the springs to gush, the rivers to flow. The air did not want to give breath to man, beasts and all the animals were embittered against man because he had lost the glory which he had. The sky wanted to fall right down on man and the earth could not bear to support him. Just then God intervened with His love and His philanthropy, and with a view to a reformation, through the Economy of the incarnation of His Son, restrained creation by His power and checked the impetuousness of the creatures against man, until man should become spiritual, incorruptible and immortal, so that creation might also be freed from corruption, be renewed with him, made incorruptible and spiritual12. Since the fall of creation happened through man, so too its renewal will be through deified man. Moreover, man is the link between the noetic world and the world of the senses. The scriptural and patristic passages which we have quoted, if interpreted carefully, point to the fact that through the resurrection and rebirth of man, creation too will be restored from decay. We see this distinctly in the whole tradition of our Church. Next we shall present the teaching of St. Symeon the New Theologian on the renewal of creation. What is about to be said should be seen from the point of view that the whole creation was made by God "out of non-existing material". God brought it into existence. This means that there is no reason for creation, irrational creation, to be destroyed completely and ruined. God does not create anything for it to vanish afterwards. There is no reason for that to happen. Besides, all the scriptural passages which we have looked at speak of "a new heaven and a new earth", of the liberation of creation from decay, of its renewal. These expressions cannot be pointing to its utter and complete destruction. St. Symeon the New Theologian is revealing on this point. He says that just as God first made uncorrupted creation and then man, so creation should be remade, that is to say changed, first, and with it the decayed bodies too should be renewed, so that also "man, having become again spiritual and immortal, might again live in an incorruptible, eternal and spiritual place"13. Here he is speaking of the renewal of bodies, about the changing and remaking of all of creation. He is also saying that spiritual man, after his resurrection and the Second Coming of Christ, will dwell in a spiritual, incorruptible and everlasting place. This shows what we said before, that God did not make creation in order for it to vanish afterward. St. Symeon links the renewal of the body with the reformation of creation.. Just as the body will be renewed through the resurrection, so too "heaven and earth with everything in it, that is to say all creation, will be renewed and liberated from the slavery of corruption". And not only will the whole creation be renewed, but "these elements will participate with us in the brightness from beyond"14. Not only man, but the whole creation as well will participate in the brightness of God. We must emphasise that this will happen analogically, since only man participates in the deifying energy of God. Creation participates in that energy of God which bestows being and life. The fact is that creation too will be changed and transformed. He uses very successfully the example of the rusty old copper utensil which the artisan puts into the fire again, and it comes out clean and renewed because the rust is gone. The same will happen to creation as well. Since it has become soiled because of men's sin, the Creator will put it into the fire, and so "it will be recast and reassembled into its original elements to become bright and new", and it will look altogether different from what it is today15. St. Symeon the New Theologian insists on this point. He says that when God renews man and makes him incorruptible, immortal and spiritual, then "he will transform this whole creation with him as well, I say, and make it definitively timeless and immaterial"16. Creation will become immaterial and eternal. It will be completely transformed along with man, "with him". This is important, because I have heard a theologian say that creation will be transformed in man, because man is the summing up of all creation. That is to say, the whole cosmos will not be renewed. But such a summing up goes against the words of Holy Scripture about the liberation of creation from corruption, and the words of St. Symeon, who speaks about its renewal "with him?and not simply "in him". Certainly these views of St. Symeon the New Theologian are not promoting any chiliastic notion, because that speaks of an earthly state. In order that St. Symeon should not seem to have such a perspective, it must be said that he is not referring to a material place perceptible to the senses, nor to a material creation perceptible to the senses, but to a spiritual one. St. Symeon maintains that when we speak of a renewal of creation, we do not mean that it will return to the state in which it was in the first Paradise, before Adam's transgression. At that time Adam was a sentient, changeable man and had need of nourishment. But at the resurrection of the body Adam will be spiritual, since, as the Apostle Paul says, the body "is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body". Just as Adam will be spiritual and will not need food, so also the whole creation, by God's energy will be remade "in the rebirth into an immaterial and spiritual dwelling-place which is above all sense perception". So it will not be material and tangible as it was created by God to satisfy the needs of Adam. The creation will be spiritual and immaterial, so that men, having bodiless bodies, and being "above sense perception in sense perception?and being indescribable in indescribables?will have a "dwelling-place"17. Clearly a spiritual habitation is being spoken of here, a special place where the spiritual will live. St. Symeon repeatedly refers to a habitation or dwelling-place, because all creation will become Paradise, will be changed and renewed with man18. In the teaching of St. Symeon several examples are also given in order to make this conception better understood. Without being understood by man's reason, because it is beyond every mind, everything will become spiritual and divine, will be united with the intelligible and will become "another noetic paradise and heavenly Jerusalem". No one has ever stayed in such a beautiful place. And, offering various examples, he says that the sun, moon and stars will shine still more brightly. The same wil l a l s o happen with the earth, everything will gleam, will convey beauty and loveliness. We quote the very words of St. Symeon the New Theologian: "The earth in its newness will take on an indescribable beauty, an unfading kind of verdure embellished with luminous flowers of a wholly spiritual kind, where, according to the holy word, righteousness dwells (2. Pet. 3, 13)"19. We are speaking about a suprasensory union of the earthly creation with the heavenly. St. Symeon is very expressive: "the earthly creation which is visible and sensible will be transformed and unite with the heavenly, invisible, suprasensible world". And then, when all the earthly things are united with the heavenly, by the grace of God, also "the righteous will receive this renewed earth as a heritage which the meek, declared blessed by the Lord, are to inherit"20. >From all this teaching of St. Symeon the New Theologian it seems that when we speak of eternal life and a renewal of creation we mean that man will be transformed and will live in a spiritual place. The creation will not disappear but it will be transformed, renewed, changed. This theology of St. Symeon the New Theologian is also expressed by St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, speaking of that future joy of the righteous. To be sure, when he refers to the people he is more analytical, and simpler, but he presents the theological truth which we developed before. He writes: "Be informed, Oh hearer, that at the second coming the world will be renewed and will be much more beautiful and much brighter than now.. The elements will be purified of all decay, they will be brighter than fire, somehow they will not burn, because the heat will all go into hell; the air will be cleansed of all darkness and cloud. The water will shine brightly like a mirror and crystal. Likewise the earth too will be refined, it will be pure of any dirt and harmful matter. That all the harmful things which give trouble and sickness, such as the heat of fire, the cold of water, darkness of the air, burning heat of summer and all uncleanness and filthiness of this world, shall be gathered into the abyss of hell, for the greater misery of wretched sinners. And thus the purified elements will remain so that the earth will be unharmed and beautiful, as another paradise". In a similar way the heavens and the sun, moon and stars will give a wonderful light, and seven times greater, as Isaiah says: that he wants the light of the moon to be like that of the sun, and the light of the sun seven times brighter, like the light of the seven days. Yet their motion will cease, because since the sun, moon and planets move now for man's well-being, for birth and decay, then they will cease from these things after the common resurrection. And the sun will stand in the east and the moon in the west and the rest in their places, as they were created in the beginning, and the seasons will not change, nor will there be winter or summer, or night, but always one eternal everlastingness of time, with endless delight and joy beyond compare. And all these things are by divine command, for the greater glory and enjoyment of the righteous, so that they may receive the reward for their multitude of deeds"21. The future renewal of creation is being experienced even now. Just as already in the present life a person can come to see the glory of God, so also he can already attain a perception of the future transformation of creation. When a person has an illuminated nous, he is not enslaved to creation, but sees in it the inner principles of beings, the uncreated grace and energy of God. When he has the grace of God in him perceptibly and sensitively, then he is living his resurrection and the regeneration of creation. Everything seems beautiful to him. We should examine in this light the beautiful descriptions of creation which the saints give. Since man is the centre of creation, uncreated grace passes through him into irrational creation as well. Thus also the wild animals are subject to the saints, as we are told in the readings from their lives. But the relics of the saints are the place where the way of the future change and transformation of the life of creation appears. In this sense we say that Christ by His incarnation brought to earth the new creation, because he gave us the possibility already of attaining a perception of its renewal, but also the earnest expectation of the future renewal. Therefore in the Church we do not simply have indications of this life, but we have evidence of it. [ BACK ] 3. The continuing development in the age to come Eternal life is not a standing still, but a continual movement, that is why the saints are constantly becoming more capable of participating in the uncreated glory of God. This is a truth which is emphasised in the biblico-patristic Tradition. The theological substructure of the truth of this is seen at two points. The first, that man was formed in the image and likeness of God. The phrase "in the likeness? indicates the movement, the direction towards God. And naturally this suggests that there is no end to becoming perfect, because that would mean a perfect and complete likeness to Christ. The second, which is connected with the first, is related to the difference between uncreated and created. The created can never be uncreated. The created moves towards the uncreated, but it cannot become uncreated in its nature. For just this reason it will always be moving and there will be no end and finish to this movement. With their vision of God, the saints understand very well the createdness and mutability of their nature. And they feel this to be a fall. They say this from the point of view that the created sees its own insignificance by comparison with the uncreated. Therefore those who have seen God have understood corruptibility and mortality, and like Abraham have said "I am dust and ashes". This continuous movement and development appears in many scriptural passages. The continuous present form of the verb which is used in many phrases, such as "be repentant", "be watchful", and so forth, shows that it is not a matter of a fixed state, but of a continuing development beginning already in this life. In the Book of Revelation there is an exhortation: "He who is holy, let him be holy still? (Rev. 22, 11). This does not go on only in this life, but it will continue also in the next life. Whoever has entered the stage of purification and repentance will advance from holiness to holiness and from grace to grace. The more a person rejoices at seeing the glory of God, the more the quest for it increases. Moreover, this is the path of virtue. Virtue has no end, because that would mean satiation, and of course any satiation creates weariness and boredom. Inasmuch as the virtues are fruits of the Holy Spirit and can never reach the perfection of the life of Christ, so there is no limit to virtue. With these presuppositions we can understand that there is no end to repentance, because that would of course mean being like Christ in nature. St. Gregory of Nyssa maintains that virtue has no end. Perfection for all the things that are measured by the senses is contained within limited bounds, and naturally they are measured by a unit of measurement. But for the great spiritual goods, such as virtue, there is no limit. "In the case of virtue we have learned from the Apostle that its one limit of perfection is the fact that it has no limit". Virtue has no limit, no boundary. And he lays stress on this in view of the words of the Apostle Paul: "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching foreward to those things which are ahead. I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind? (Phil. 3, 12-15). While the Apostle Paul feels that he has been laid hold of by Christ and that he is on the path of perfection, he feels that he has not arrived yet. St. Gregory of Nyssa, referring to this apostolic passage, says that the Apostle Paul, running the course of virtue and straining towards the things still to come, did not feel that his journey was ended, because he did not think it safe to stop the course. The end of virtue is evil, just as the end of life is death. God, who has no evil, is perfect good by nature. Therefore the divine nature is unbounded and unlimited, it has no end. To practise virtue means that we participate in God. Those, then, who know what is good by nature have the desire to participate in it, but since the natural good has no limit, no end, the participant's desire does not participate in sin. Consequently, virtue has one limit, the unlimited, that which has no limit. "The one limit of virtue is the absence of a limit"22. If this happens in this life, it means that it will continue still further in the next life, when man will have a greater knowledge of God, and this will increase the desire of the present time. For the greater the love, the greater is the knowledge. And the greater the knowledge, the more love increases, and the desire as well. St. Symeon the New Theologian says that the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in the heart of the perfect, "known and felt to be present", is not a fulfilment of desire, but the cause of a greater and more fervent desire. This visit of God does not leave the person in peace, but then he is burning with fire. Since his nous can find no end of desiring, and since it cannot give any measure to his desire and love and is forced to take part in the endless, therefore "it carries about a longing that knows no bounds and a love that can never be satisfied"23. Thus the definition of perfection is not to be limited to measures. There is an unceasing and increasing love and a burning desire for God. Any stop is bad. Therefore according to the Fathers perfection is defined as the "unfinished perfection of the perfect". The teaching of the Fathers about eternal life and participation in the uncreated grace of God speaks of continuous development. St. Maximus makes reference to the ever-moving fixity of those desiring what is desired. According to St. Maximus, deification is identical with likeness to God and participation in God. He regards participation as endless and continual enjoyment of what is desired. Here it is clear that he is speaking of endless enjoyment, which is ever-moving fixity. Concisely he writes: "Ever-moving fixity, on the part of the those desiring, around the object of desire is endless and continual enjoyment of the object of desire; endless and continual enjoyment of the object of desire is participation in the supranatural things of God"24. In all the teaching of St. Maximus it is clear that one's spiritual life develops continually and is never expected to stop. Therefore he speaks of a constant ascent and an increase in participation in the good. In his works very often we find the terms "ever-moving fixity?and "stationary movement". But in order to interpret this essential thesis better, we should look at the problems which he was facing from philosophy. For it is well known that the Fathers were replying to the ontological questions of the philosophers and gave sound answers which came from the Revelation of God. Origen, in many cases following Plato's theories, maintained that motion existed before the world's becoming and that fixity follows after becoming. He said that the spirits which are in God felt satiety, and then they moved. A fruit of the motion was the creation and becoming of the world. Therefore evil is the cause of the creation of the world. So the salvation of man is the return of the soul to God, where there will be fixity. Thus the order is first motion, then becoming, then fixity. That is to say, first the spirits were moved, then the world was created, and lastly, fixity will follow, when the souls, freed from their bodies, will rest in God25. St, Maximus, confronting this succession put forward by Origen, who was moving among Platonic views about man's creation and salvation, while he kept the terms motion, becoming, and fixity, changed the order and gave it another content. For St. Maximus it is not motion that comes first, but becoming. The world is God's positive creation. In the beginning God created the world, into which he put motion. Without motion the creatures would not be able to rise to God. Thus motion is a fruit of God's creative energy and was put into the world, and not the cause of the origin and fall of man and the world. Every creature has the God-given possibility of motion, because without it there would be no completion. Therefore motion is not a cause of the fall but a way of ascent. It is natural that motion should have no end, because the uncreated, God, has no end, since He is infinite. St. Maximus faced the following problem: Since motion is a natural feature of creation, how will fixity prevail, that is, how will this motion ever stop? It was precisely to answer this question that St. Maximus introduced the term "ever-moving fixity". Man will remain in communion with God, but this fixity will be an endless motion. The reason is that the created can never ever be altogether like the uncreated, the finite cannot be identified fully with the infinite. Thus St. Maximus, rejecting Origen's conception of motion - becoming - fixity, speaks of becoming - motion - fixity, and says that the fixity will be ever-moving. Naturally, after this alteration of the wording, the content also changed. For St. Maximus did not mean by the term `ever-moving fixity' that the soul is released from the body and stays with God; he meant the eternal existence of the whole man, consisting of soul and body, and its continuing perfecting. Creation cannot be moved towards non-existence, towards nonbeing, because this is prevented by God's directing energy. So its natural movement is towards living in Christ, towards fulfilling the law of its creation. All the holy Fathers' teaching about God is also within this framework. In what follows we shall cite several examples from two Fathers who take up the theme that in the next life there will be continual development for those people who partake of the uncreated glory of God. St. Gregory of Sinai writes: "In the life to come the angels and saints ever increase to in pngts of grace and never abate their longing for further blessings. No slackening or change from virtue to sin is admitted in that life"26. One such thesis is also developed by St. Gregory Palamas, refuting the philosophy of Barlaam. Barlaam was maintaining that for man to be in suprasensory prayer, as he meant it, is the most perfect pngt of God. And therefore praying which is done in pain and suffering etc. is not one of the most perfect pngts of God. St. Gregory Palamas uses many arguments to overthrow this thesis. Among other things he says that there are no most perfect pngts of God, that is to say, complete and admitting of no addition, because it is well known and clear that the saints in the age to come will advance infinitely in the vision of God. "The desire of those who have achieved this vision is limitless, since the grace already granted them gives them the power to receive greater vision, as He who gives Himself is infinite and He bestows abundantly and lavishly. Therefore how would the sons of the age to come not progress infinitely in this vision, acquiring grace after grace and joyfully ascending the ascent that never wearies??None of the pngts which God gives are most perfect, since the most perfect does not receive any increase27. Therefore, according to St. Gregory Palamas there will be continuous development in the age to come. Fixity i s sy no ny mo us with evil. Continuous development is also taking place already in this life and it will continue in the next, for the righteous. Sharing the divine glory, they will attain a greater desire and a higher longing. Moreover, the loving God is infinite and it is impossible close himself off from created human nature for him. And since St. Gregory Palamas also bases himself on a passage in St. Dionysios the Areopagite, we should say that the divine Dionysios, in his writings about the celestial hierarchy, where he speaks of the three ranks of angels, of which the highest, closest to God, is first, the lowest is closest to men, and the intermediate rank, which receives illluminations from the highest, is referring to the purification, illumination and perfection of the angels, which is proportionate to their capacity for illumination. Thus there is development in vision of God even in the angelic ranks according to their different orders. The first rank "becomes purified, illuminated and perfected in that it is unmixed with any weakness, filled with the first of all light, and achieves perfection as a partaker of primary knowledge and understanding", "purified of ignorance by the proportionately granted knowledge of the more perfect initiations". Even the angels are purified from ignorance by the knowledge of the more perfect initiations, which are given according to rank. The more perfect initiation offers more knowledge, and this knowledge is called purification from the previous ignorance. The same also goes on with the other ranks of angels28. It must be added that the age to come, according to St. Gregory Palamas, is called everlasting, that is to say it is never finished, not only with respect to time, but also with respect to the addition of pngts of grace. Referring to the great worthiness of the Virgin, since it was through her that Christ came into the world, St. Gregory also underlines the value of the Mother of God in the age to come: "In the future unending age any advance in divine illumination, and any revelation of divine mysteries and any form of spiritual pngts will be impossible without her"29. Consequently it is the essence of patristic wisdom that in the future life, for the righteous there will be no standing still, but a constant development, and this will be continuous, since man's desire increases with greater knowledge of God, and because he cannot cease to be created and become by nature uncreated. One can experience the uncreated by grace, but not by nature, which belongs exclusively to God, who is self-existent and is life itself. Of course this will happen for those who before their death had entered the stage of purification and repentance. That is to say, if a person has repented, has confessed, but his nous has not had time to be healed and illuminated, by the grace of God he will increase in divine knowledge. We do not mean this in the sense of Latin theology, according to which a person who confesses but does not have time to do his penance will go through what they call purgatory. In the Orthodox Church we do not speak of appeasing divine righteousness, but of entering the stage of purification and repentance, even if the cure has not been completed. In these cases divine grace will help in the cure even after death, in the sense that those who have repented will by divine grace become better able to receive illumination and participation in the glory of God. By contrast, those who have not repented nor shown their repentance in practice will not develop towards goodness and virtue. I have not found passages in the Fathers which show that the unrepentant will move towards an experience of greater evil. We do know that just as there will be gradations in Paradise according to the person's spiritual condition, the same will be true in Hell. Christ, referring to that city which will turn away the Apostles, says: "Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgement than for that city!? (Matt. 10, 15). The words `more tolerable' indicate that there will be gradations also in Hell. In conclusion we must say that there is eternal life, which is experienced either as eternal Paradise or as eternal Hell. This eternity should make us think. The transformed bodies of all men will have eternal life. The bodies of all will rise again, of both the sinners and the righteous. The resurrection of the body is a pngt which has been given to all men by the resurrection of Christ. But the righteous will further experience ascension, since they will be caught up in clouds "to meet the Lord in the air? (1 Thes. 4, 17). At the Second Coming of Christ there will also be the renewal of creation from decay. For the righteous the participation in the glory of God will be increasing and continuous. There will not be a fixed state, but an ever-moving fixity and stationary motion. Man must see the perishability and temporariness of this life and look to eternity. St. Gregory Palamas, interpreting the scriptural passages "the form of this world is passing away? (1 Cor. 7, 31) and "the time is short? (1 Cor. 7, 29), says: "Life is short, death is near, this world is perishable, the other is the one which remains forever". Scorn for the present world, preparedness for the world to come, life in harmony with the way of the future age, as far as possible, and escape from the harmful things of the present world, "sends us to that one in safety"30. Our thought must be directed to eternal life, for "our citizenship is in heaven? (Phil. 3, 20). Worldly people can be governed by capitalist, socialist and marxist systems, but the citizenship of Christians is heavenly. Man's goal is the desire for eternal life and participation in the Kingdom of God, of which "there is no end". Nor will there be an end of finishing, but perfection will be unfinished. [ BACK ] Epilogue Death is the greatest mystery, which has always occupied man's spirit. It is a consequence of sin, but also a cause of it. Mortality, which we carry in us from birth, determines the course of our life. If we watch our reactions, we will discover that they all start from the problem of death. Insecurities, fear and self-love, which give rise to ambition, love of possessions, self-indulgence and many other passions, have their origin in the experience of death. Death separates loved ones, breaks up the community and unity of families, and spreads despair and hopelessness. Love is closely connected with death. A person loves in order to overcome the anguish and pain of the death which he experiences in his existence, but even when he loves, he senses that death is coming nearer and will some day be the cause that brings this love to an end. Whoever sees love outside the experience of death is mistaken and sentimental, for love is linked with pain. Pain about finding love, and pain about the fear of losing it. Thus the man who contemplates death is formulating a truth. No fact is so certain as death. A great philosopher of the meaning of being, Heidegger, would say that to exist is "to exist towards death". In fact "to exist authentically means an avowal of existing towards death". Christianity, which is the true philosophy, is a study of death. The saints faced correctly this great problem which torments man. The desert ascetics were the true students of death. However, their study was made with the experience of the grace of God, and it spread not hopelessness and despair, but freedom, peace, love, hope, departure from the restrictive limits of the senses and the concrete. That is why they were true men and pre-eminently social. The holy Fathers laid stress on the remembrance of death. They regarded it as the most effective means of acquiring the fear of God, which gives birth to repentance. Therefore they praise the person who is mindful of his departure from this life. "Blessed is the man who remembers his departure from this life"1. The unremitting remembrance of death is "a good trainer of body and soul"2. The Christian's concern about death induces the grief that leads to salvation3. Vivid mindfulness of death embraces many virtues. One who remembers death practises many virtues. The remembrance of death "begets grief; it promotes the exercise of self-control in all things; it is a reminder of hell; it is the mother of prayer and tears; it induces guarding of the heart and detachment from material things; it is a source of attentiveness and discrimination... the purging of impassioned thoughts from the heart, it embraces many of the Lord's commandments"4. Thus the holy Fathers are sure that it is within the consideration of death that a person reaches salvation. Just as it is impossible for a hungry person not to remember bread, so it is impossible for a person who is interested in his salvation "not to think of death and the judgement"5. The Fathers advise us to have an unceasing mindfulness of death which will accompany us in our sleeping and waking. "Let the remembrance of death go to sleep with you and get up with you"6. They exhort us: "Let us always remember death"7. To be sure, this mindfulness is closely related to the mindfulness of everything that follows after death. It is not a question of the feeling that the time will come when we shall die, but of a spiritual knowledge that this moment of departure is definitive for the eternal future. That is to say, it is a question not only of the fact that one will be deprived of the present life and those we love, as sensual people feel, but of knowing that a judgement and tribunal will follow, on which the future life depends. This is the horrible fact. Death is remembered in two ways, as we see in the works of the holy Fathers. The first is the rational mindfuless that the end of our biological life is coming, and the judgement will follow. This mindfulness too is important, since it frees us from attachment to the earthly, from enslavement to the material and tangible. The second is charismatic mindfulness of death, or rather, the existential sense of it. This is a great spiritual pngt which, on the one hand, is a fruit of the experience of God, and on the other hand, a formidable power which moves the person to fervent prayer, to unrestrained groaning, to constant struggling to keep the commandments of Christ in order that his whole inner world may be transformed. The ever-memorable Archimandrite Sophrony Sakharov describes with astonishing fluency this second way of remembering death, which is a great and special spiritual pngt given by God. In a way strange to the world, inspired by divine grace, he sees his inner desolation, eternal oblivion, the lack of meaning in life. He sees death in and around him. He feels all people to be in the power of death, the whole creation is dying with him. In this state he prays ardently and fervently to the God Who is without beginning and end. Correspondingly he experiences a painful revival of the living God8. One should not think that such an experience of death is dreadful and darkens the spirit of man or that it deprives him of essential vital energies and powers to continue his life. This can happen too, if the person confronts it without the grace of God. But if he looks into death with spiritual inspiration, that is, with hope in God, then he is filled with still more life. Powerful energies enter his psychosomatic organism; hope of eternal life, of overcoming death, develops. Dispassion is cultivated in his being and, in general, he becomes a more social and authentic person. And we know very well that today our society is suffering for lack of authentic people. Christians are living in a specific place and time, but they "are of another world, children of the heavenly Adam, a new race, children of the Holy Spirit, shining brothers of Christ, similar to their Father, the spiritual Adam. They belong to his city, his race and power". And therefore, having the Lord with them when they leave this life, they "come to those living above with great happiness. Those who belong to the Lord receive them. They have prepared for them there houses and gardens and splendid and elegant garments"9. The real homeland is heaven. And therefore they conquer death by the power of Christ, who has already conquered it, and they are in possession of hope, because from the temporary place, from exile, they are going to their true homeland. Thus it is in Christ that death is overcome. Those who unite with Christ are unafraid of death, but they see it as a transition into life. We see this in billions of saints, martyrs, holy people, married people who have departed to Christ with joy and hope. The death of St. Gorgonia, sister of St. Gregory the Theologian, is expressive, as he describes it himself in his funeral oration. "She longed for her dissolution, for indeed she had great boldness towards Him who called her. ?There had developed in her heart a love towards the loved one, "Who is, I will even say it, her lover". She had been made aware of the day of her falling asleep, and, as St. Gregory says, when the appointed day came, she prepared herself for death and departure, "and fulfilled the law which prevails in such matters and took to her bed". When she understood that the hour of her soul's departure from her body was coming, she lay down on the bed and waited for death. She fell asleep, after she had previously counseled her husband, children and friends and had spoken brilliantly about what happens in heaven, and made her last day a "day of solemn festival". The day of her soul's departure became for her a day of solemn festival. And St. Gregory the Theologian, speaking of her death, said that his sister "was set free, or, it is better to say, taken to God, or flew away, or changed her abode, or anticipated by a little the departure of her body". At the end of his funeral oration St. Gregory added a detail which, nevertheless, is expressive and indicative of the overcoming of death. In the room where St. Gorgonia lay at the time when she was nearing her departure from this world, there "was solemn silence, as if her death were a religious ceremony. This description of the hour of death is most beautiful. It amounts to a religious ceremony. The saint was repeating a psalm. Her father came near in order to hear just what she was saying. And he preserved the information that "under her breath she was repeating the last words of a psalm", the funeral service. Her manner of dying was, as St. Gregory the Theolgian says, a testimony to the boldness with which she was departing10. It is in this way that the saints who have boldness with God leave this world. They leave with the hope of resurrection, with the assurance that they will meet the beloved Bridegroom. The hour of death conceals a mystery. And that is why the suspense then is great. A mixture of feelings prevails. Repentance, prayer, fear, hope, expectation of a meeting. Therefore not only the one who is dying should pray, but all who are around him should accompany him with their prayers. This holy hour should be faced with holy awe and spiritual inspiration. God granted me to be present at the whole process of the dying of a holy man, my ever-memorable Gerondas Kallinikos, Metropolitan of Edessa. His entire life was a period of preparation for death. It constantly stirred him and occupied him. He had an intense mindfulness of death and this was confirmed by many incidents. >From the day when his illness became manifest to the day he fell asleep, seven whole months, I lived the procedure of the rite of the death of a holy man. For seven months he was, in a way, in the garden of Gethsemane. He prayed constantly about meeting with the heavenly tribunal. He lived with spiritual intensity, constant watchfulness, unceasing prayer. He acted in perfect obedience to the will of God. He wa s g ran ted va rious experiences. I wrote them all down in a book which I published to honour his memory. The fact is that I saw how Christ's "brave young men?fall asleep. I recognised the glorious death of a pure and holy man. I experienced what it means to conquer death. "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on? (Rev. 14, 13). Blessed are they who have lived with the experience of remembrance of death. Blessed are those who have felt in their hearts a longing and love for Christ the Bridegroom. Blessed are those who have learned and known well that they are men of "another era", another land, another state. Blessed are those who have been attracted by the beloved and the lover. Blessed are those who have overcome death already in this life. Blesssed are those who have died with the hope of resurrection. Blessed are those who have left this world confessing "I look for the resurrection of the dead". Blessed are those who can repeat the psalm's "I will both lie down in peace and sleep". Blessed are those who have lived as dead to sin and those who have died raised from sin. Blessed are those who depart this world with the certitude that they are going to the fathers, to the people of God. "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on". I bless those who have known the power of life. I yearn for the study of death which they lived, and I feel moved by their hearts' longing for heaven. And I seek their prayers that this longing of which I have a suspicion may touch me and that I may die in peace and repentance. It is my greatest desire. In a prayer which the ever-memorable Archimandrite Sophrony composed he included among others two petitions: One, that God should prolong the days of his life until he should offer Him true repentance. The other, that when God should decide to receive him, He should give him foreknowledge of it so that he might be prepared to meet Him. "Grant me, Lord, to know Thy truth before my departure from this life. Prolong my days until I may offer Thee true repentance. Do not carry me up in the middle of my days, and when it pleases Thee to put an end to my life, let me know before my death, so that my soul may prepare to meet Thee "On that day, great and holy for me, be with me, Lord, and grant me the joy of Thy Salvation. Cleanse me from every sin, manifest and hidden, from all lawlessness hidden in me, and count me worthy to offer Thee a good answer before Thy dread Judgement seat. Amen"11. These two requests are my dearest entreaties. I ask the reader to pray to God for me that they be fulfilled. Let our unceasing prayer be: "That we may spend the rest of our days in peace and repentance, we beseech Thee, O Lord". "For a Christian end of our life, painless, peaceful and unashamed, and for a good answer before the dread judgement-seat of Christ, we beseech Thee". Let the cry be fervent: "G r a n t t h i s, O L o r d" [ BACK ] The Feast of the Kingdom If any man be devout and love God, let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast. If any man be a wise servant, let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord. If anyone has laboured long in fasting, let him now receive his recompense. If anyone has wrought from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If anyone has come at the third hour, let him with thankfulness keep the feast. If anyone has arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; because he shall in no wise suffer loss. If anyone has delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near, fearing nothing. If anyone has tarried even until the eleventh hour, let him also not be alarmed at his tardiness; for the Lord, who is generous, will accept the last even as the first; he gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour. And he shows mercy upon the last, and cares for the first; and to the one he gives, and upon the other he bestows pngts. And he both accepts the deeds, and welcomes the intention, and honours the acts and praises the offering. Wherefor enter ye into the joy of your Lord; and receive your reward, both the first and the second. Ye rich and poor together, hold ye high festival. Ye sober and ye heedless, honour the day. Rejoice today, both ye who have fasted and ye who have disregarded the fast. The table is full-laden; feast ye sumptuously. The calf is fatted; let no one go away hungry. Enjoy ye all the feast of faith. Receive ye all the riches of lovingkindness. Let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shone forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Saviour's death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell he made Hell captive. He angered it when it tasted of his flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, cried: Hell was angered when it encountered thee in the lower regions. It was angered, for it was abolished. It was angered, for it was mocked. It was angered, for it was slain. It was angered, for it was overthrown. It was angered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen. O death, where is thy sting? O Hell, where is thy victory? Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To him be glory and dominion unto the ages of ages. Amen. LIFE AFTER DEATH HydroGraphiX."PELAGIA". Subject: kenneth grant Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 23:14:40 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , "proclus@mac.com" , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" Any opinions about Kenneth Grant out there, He's always seemed rather interesting to me. I've never read any, but I am thinking of picking up Nightside of Eden. proclus Subject: [Fwd: kolob and other stuff] Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:29:45 -0500 From: Michael Love To: "proclus@mac.com" -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: kolob and other stuff Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:43:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Beth any To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com, Theurgus@aol.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com For some reason it doesn't seem like I have everybody listed in the address space above. If I'm leaving someone out please let me know so I can update my address book. Is Robert Blacks address listed above? Anyhow... I know this email I'm responding to is so ancient - do forgive.... I was mostly just checking in to say "hi" and express my continued interest in this forum. >From kenshaw@dalsemi.com Wed Feb 18 10:37:40 1998 >Hail Mutants! > >Robert has indeed dug up the Dog! > >The hebrew is "keleb"...any philologist >will sign off on the equivalence between >"kolob" and "keleb". > >This online hebrew dictionary is really great! > >http://home.sol.no/~ggunners/bibel/h3/61.htm#1 > >I love you guys! > >Ken Beth continues: I was under the impression from my readings - I guess it would be a bit helpful if I could actually recall the reference - but a few years back when I was researching the word Kolob I had read that it was just a semitic word for "star" in general, which led me to the impression that kolob could be any star because I assumed that's all the word meant. I don't discount that it could mean dog. If it does then that certainly puts a very interesting spin in things for those of us who have followed things regarding Sirius. I am wondering if it could've been Sitchin whose bok I read about the word kolob. Can't remember anymore darn it. Anyone ever hear that it just meant star or is it just me? Anyway - hello, hello to everyone out there. Keep me on the list. It's invaluble to me. BTW - much of the stuff out there relating to the Pleadians I find to be rather low quality, if not outright BS, however the first two Barbara Marciniak books "Bringers of the Dawn" and "Earth: Keys to the Living Library" put numerous concepts in a contemporary language that Joseph was talking about 160 years ago. One of the most important things that it conveys also is to distinguish between the humanoid "space gods" as I refer to them and the prime creator which is beyond our comprehension. Much of what I have read about the intelligence coming from the planet Sirius is actually rather negative. Just because someone is a "god" does not mean I want to align myself with them as I am sure you are all well aware of. Methinks the Marciniak books (even though I genreally detest channelled info) are an excellent companion to the Sitchin books. Take what you like....as they say. I'd also love to have the time to generate more talk on this list about the feminine aspects of diety but sadly my time is so short these days. Bethalina ;) funky mormon gnostic witch ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Subject: Re: Bethalina-kolob and other stuff Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:43:04 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Theurgus@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Ken! Always good to hear from you, Brother. JSW -----Original Message----- From: Theurgus@aol.com To: ariel144@hotmail.com rds@acsu.buffalo.edu proclus@mac.com Cc: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com kathleen@enol.com trent@goodnet.com jswick@cris.com ArtdeHoyos@aol.com rpcman@hotmail.com onandagus@webtv.net Neoptolmus@aol.com dcombe@rain.org 74277.3365@compuserve.com ?.3365@compuserve.com> Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 10:25 PM Subject: Bethalina-kolob and other stuff >Beth, > >If you feel up to it...could we talk? I've been through >alot of stuff lately and it would be real nice to talk to >a goddess. > >Ken Shaw > Subject: Bethalina-kolob and other stuff Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:16:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: ariel144@hotmail.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Beth, If you feel up to it...could we talk? I've been through alot of stuff lately and it would be real nice to talk to a goddess. Ken Shaw Subject: JSW--dude! Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: jswick@cris.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Joe, There is alot I would like to talk with you about. I hope the AUB folks are alerted to the so called Y2K computer problem. If it comes down the way that it very well could, then the long awaited collapse and civil war is upon us. I'm sure you're way ahead of me on this, but I just felt like I should say something just in case. It's ironic that I've just reached the point of "deconstructing" everything, and now it looks like visions of the the first generation of deciples of Joseph Smith are ACTUALLY COMING TRUE. Ken Subject: Please help with hebrew Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: jswick@cris.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Subj: Please help with hebrew Date: 98-08-30 00:33:54 EDT From: KenShaw007 To: prophecy@nazarene.net CC: nazarene@nazarene.net, Theurgus, Sefirot1 CC: CYeshua, ArtdeHoyos Howdy Folks! I'm hoping some of you hebrew scholars can lend a hand. I'm studying Genesis in the Hebrew, and I'm wondering how the Bet modifies the meaning of Raysheeth...how is Baraysheeth different than just plain old raysheeth? Then there is the matter of the alef-tav (eet) that occurs twice in Gen. 1:1........It 's treated as an untranslatable particle in Gen 1:1 when it could just as well be translated as "with" or "together with". It looks to me like the most literal translation possible of Gen 1:1 is something like: "First Rulers fashioned with sky, with land." Baraysheeth Eloheem baraw eet shawmahyim eet ehretz Please help an ignoramus like me to understand why this translation couldn't stand. Ken Shaw Subject: please help with hebrew-nevermind Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:25:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: jswick@cris.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com I just figured out that the Bet at the begining of a word means "at" or "in". My efforts to make alef-tav mean something just feels forced so I'll defer to traditional useage, and I wasn't including the Hay prefix which means "the". B-rashyt bra elhym et h-shmym et h-ertz. At first made Rulers the sky and the land. So it starts to look more and more like the standard translation, but this is one heck of a useful exercize. Thanks, Ken Subject: Re: The difference between the soul and spirit Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:09:06 -0700 From: Joe St eve Swic k II I Reply-To: Joe Steve Swick III To: sdw , Stephen Escobedo , George Head , Michael Love , "Hadley V. Baxendale" , BeKuS , Ken Shaw ___Jerry Martin___ Is there a spirit part of man that survives the death of the body? Ezek. 18:4: "The soul that is sinning-it itself will die." (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word ne'phesh in this verse as "soul," thus saying that it is the soul that dies. Some translations that render ne'phesh as "soul" in other passages use the expression "the man" or "the one" in this verse. So, the ne'phesh, the soul, is the person, not an immaterial part of him that survives when his body dies.) Ps. 146:4: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." (The Hebrew word here translated "spirit" is a derivative of ru'ach. Some translators render it "breath." When that ru'ach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person's thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.) ----- Actually, Judaism posits that every person has 5 spirits or souls. Some of these begin and end with human existence, and others do not. The progression is: nefesh (vital soul) -- ruach (spirit) -- neshamah (higher soul) -- chayah (living essence) -- yehidah (the divine soul?). Each of these words describes something very specific, which is quite beyond the scope of the discussion here... perhaps a little too esoteric for your tastes. These distinctions are often not clear when we discuss the meaning of scripture, but they can be quite informative when carefully considered. For example, when Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus about the spirit moving like the wind -- you feel it, but cannot see it, he is clearly speaking of Ruach HaKodesh -- which is always ascending and descending. We feel or perceive these movements in various ways. For those who are spiritually mature, this is the source of revelation for us. In this regard, I was absolutely amazed when I read the following passage by R' Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, who lived from 1707-1747. I thoroughly admit to reading this passage with the Prophet Joseph Smith and my own experiences in mind. Said Luzzatto: "God ordained that man should naturally be able to teach himself, understand, and reason with his intellect, and thus gain knowledge for his observation of things and their properties. On the basis of this knowledge, man is able to infer and deduce things that are not immediately apparent, and he can thus gain a more complete understanding of things. This is the natural process of human reason. "Besides this, however, God also decreed that there exist another, much higher, means of gaining knowledge. This is what we call 'bestowed enlightenment.' [PERHAPS WHAT A MORMON WOULD CALL AN ENDOWMENT -- JSW] "Bestowed enlightenment consists of an influence granted by God through various means especially designated for this purpose. When such influence enters a person's mind, certain information becomes fixed in his intellect. He perceives this information clearly, without any doubt or error, understanding it completely, with all its causes and effects, as well as its place in the general scheme. This enlightenment is called Ruach HaKodesh. "In this manner, one can gain knowledge of things otherwise accessible to human reason, but in a much clearer manner. But at the same time, he can also gain information that could not otherwise be gained through mere logic. This includes such things as information concerning future events and hidden mysteries. "This experience can take place on many different levels. These involve the intensity of the influence, the time for which it is granted, the manner through which it reaches the individual, and the nature of what is revealed and communicated in this fashion. In every case, however, the influence comes in such a manner that the individual is clearly aware of it. "It is also possible that such influence be extended to a person's mind so that he is able to clearly perceive a given concept without being aware of this influence. In such a case, it is experienced LIKE ANY OTHER IDEA THAT SPONTANEOUSLY ARISES IN ONE'S MIND. In a broader sense, this is also called Ruach HaKodesh or "Hidden Influence" in the words of the sages, [even though it is actually a much lower level]. To the person worth of it, however, true Ruach HaKodesh is a manifest experience, where one is highly aware of its influence. There is yet another level, that is much higher than Ruach HaKodesh. This is the level of true prophecy. "This is a degree of inspiration in which the individual reaches a level where he literally binds himself to God in such a way that he actually feels this attachment. He then clearly realizes that the One to whom he is bound is God. This is sensed with complete clarity, with an awareness that leaves no room for any doubt whatsoever. The individual is as certain of it as he would be if it were a physical object observed with his physical senses. The main concept of true prophecy, then, is that a living human being achieves such an attachment and bond with God. This in itself is an extremely high state of perfection. Besides this, however, it is also often accompanied by certain information and enlightenment. Through prophecy, one can gain knowledge of many lofty truths among God's hidden mysteries. These things are perceived very clearly, just as all knowledge gained through bestowed enlightenment. Prophecy, however, comes with much greater intensity than Ruach HaKodesh" (As quoted, Aryeh Kaplan, _Meditation and the Bible_, 23-4). The "low level" or "Hidden Influence" R' Luzzatto speaks of reminds me of the following comment by Joseph Smith: "A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find [that]those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect" (TPJS 151). Just for good measure... I was also impressed by the following passage by the Rambam (Moses Maimonides): "An individual having all the necessary qualifications can delve into the mysteries (PaRDeS), advancing in these deep, subtle concepts and gaining a firm understanding and perception of them. At the same time, he must also sanctify himself and separate himself from the ways of the masses, who grope in the darkness of the times. He must acheive constant diligence in not even thinking of nonessentials or considering the current vanities and intrigues. Such a person must work on himself until his mind is constantly clear and directed [from] on high.... The individual who does this immediately becomes worthy of Ruach HaKodesh. When he attains this spirit, his soul becomes bound up on the level of the angels...and he becomes a completely different person. He can now understand things with a knowledge completely different than anything he ever experienced previously. The level that he has attained is far above that of other men, who can merely use the intellect. This is the meaning of what [the Prophet Samuel told] King Saul, "[the spirit of God shall descend upon you,] you shall prophesy with them, and you shall be transformed into a different man" (1 Samuel 10:6)." (As quoted, Aryeh Kaplan, _Meditation and the Bible_, 22). ___Jerry Martin___ But God's Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. ----- Hmmmm. Either way, I would sincerely hope we have become something better than the beasts of the field by the time we die. Cheers, JSW Subject: Re: I squared Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 10:08:16 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , "proclus@mac.com" , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" References: 1 Theurgus@aol.com wrote: > > Proclus, > > You're back!! That's one hell of a post! I've got a hunch that Ma Huang is > the > "herb of enlightenment" cultivated by the Sarmoun folks. I love you, man. I'm pretty ignorant about Ma Huang at this point. I understand that it is right up my alley, and I tried it once to no effect. I'll keep a look out for a good source and some biochemical info. > out how "Mormon Tea" got it's name. There is definately a connection between > cafeine, ephedra and the attainment of certain useful "states" in Sufism. I first tried ephidrine on my mission in 81. My companion was sick and bed ridden. I wanted to do an all night scripture study. Little did I know what was in store for me. Ephidrine seems to be a spiritual amplifier, at least for me. I had insights into the scriptures that night that have stuck with me to this day. This really in contrast to the fleeting, pseudo-insights that sometimes come from the hallucinogenics. I'm glad that you mentioned caution and danger. It still worries me that a chemical can effect spiritual states. The comparison with the forbidden fruit is quite apt, and the danger of premature activation seems to be real. I think that the potential for dillusion and self-deception is also very high. > Did you know that Nauvoo was the biggest producer of hemp during it's period? > I was SO impressed by the effects of THC that I was not at all surprised to > later discover the mysteriousness of its long relationship with us hominids. Nauvoo? Really? This is a marvelous fact. It reminds me of Jefferson's and Washingtion's cultivation of the herb. Of course, we all know that they were only interested in the fiber, smirk smirk. (proclus elbows Ken in the ribs.) That was a different time. I am always surprised by how casual people were about consciousness alteration in early America. The Declaration of Independence is drenched with coffee. I wonder what those fellows would think about our tedious and puritanical laws today. Clearly, they would be arrested ;-}. > I haven't done anything with it in a long time, I'm still reeling from that > appalling > terror of its first revelation to me...I truly learned the meaning of "the > fear of YHVH > is the begining of wisdom". This is what Gurdjeiff calls "the terror of the > situation" > and Sarte is pointing to when he talks about "nausea". A few years ago, I became impressed with the Uncle Al's connection of the the bornless ritual with his ether experiments. I found a large bottle of reagent grade ether at a local head shop, so I began my own series of experiments. I had some marvelous, powerful, if draining experiences. I don't think that I ever felt love so directly and powerfully as I did at that time. Our daughter was a beautiful, helpless baby at the time. I really empathized. I also got some insight into the idea that our actions have unseen results in other realms. It was all so exciting that I became careless about set and setting. You know, this is the trap. Peak experiences lead to exciting results, which leads to carelessness and bad (never again type) trips. So, I experienced that terror which you spoke of. I wrote some verses at that time. Here they are. The Terror of Existince is this; that we are but a point of consciousness trapped in a tunnel of time.... alone. Furiously, we grasp for the puppet strings of All That We Know, to make it dance and jump. Inadvertantly, we lose our grip on one or two. They are then as the string of a kite, which is loosed on the wind and carried away. Madly, like children we chase the strings, but they unravel and are lost. We fall down in the dirt and sob. But, the part of us which is the kite, or the puppetmaster is blown away, free, carried aloft on the wind. So look up, dear child. Wash your face and hands. For the Terror of Existance is also The Joy of Existance. -- Dear Child Dear child there is a crown A dance that turns around A star that's hid yet known A star of fire and stone So child look to the skies You'll see a pair of eyes A pair that's dim but bright To see with second sight Dear child there is a crown A dance that turns around A star that's dark and light A star that's day and night So child look to the Sun It's not the only one There's many many more Out there beyond the door Dear child there is a crown A dance that turns around A star that's hid yet known A star of fire and stone -- I've > finally > put my hand to the plow and begun to carry out the instructions of my Sufi > preceptor in ernest. The simple exercise of sitting for an hour a day trying > to > find the sensation of your own beating heart inside your own chest, and then > breathing "into" the sensation, produces effects that are far beyond any drug > I'VE ever had any experience with. I love this exercise, which I have been doing on and off for years. It's cool, because everything that you need for it is always at hand... your own beating heart is an excellent and adaptive timepiece for breathing exercises. It's easy to do while laying in a hot bath. The water seems to facilitate energy flows, at least for me. With the lights out, the phosphenes are killer. These days I would combine the beating heart breathing with a mandala meditation. I can't do the hot bath thing anymore because I had a herniated disk. Our tub is now too small and uncomfortable. Anyway, inner eye mandala exercises are quite a trip, and combined with the breathing should be amazing. > Please go find a copy of "Sufism The Reality of Religion" by Angha. It's > being > carried by both Border's and Barne's and Noble's and has just come out. It is > simply dumbfounding...the plainess of Angha's presentation of the Sufi theory > and method would've make Joseph Smith smile. Below is the Amazon blurb on the Arab history book I mentioned. Any opinions? I added Angha to my fall book order. proclus History of the Arab Peoples by Hourani, Albert H. Hourani Value Priced at: $12.14 Customers who bought this book also bought: Covering Islam : How the Media and the Experts Determine How We See the Rest of the World; Edward W. Said, et al The Middle East : A Brief History of the Last 2,000 Years; Bernard W. Lewis Who's Who in the Bible; Joan Comay, Ronald Brownrigg Reviews Synopsis A chronicle of the rich spiritual, political, and cultural institutions of the Arab civilization discusses its thirteen centuries of war, peace, literature, and religion. -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: I squared Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:22:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Th eurgu s@aol .com To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Darvish33@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Proclus, You're back!! That's one hell of a post! I've got a hunch that Ma Huang is the "herb of enlightenment" cultivated by the Sarmoun folks. I really want to find out how "Mormon Tea" got it's name. There is definately a connection between cafeine, ephedra and the attainment of certain useful "states" in Sufism. Did you know that Nauvoo was the biggest producer of hemp during it's period? I was SO impressed by the effects of THC that I was not at all surprised to later discover the mysteriousness of its long relationship with us hominids. I haven't done anything with it in a long time, I'm still reeling from that appalling terror of its first revelation to me...I truly learned the meaning of "the fear of YHVH is the begining of wisdom". This is what Gurdjeiff calls "the terror of the situation" and Sarte is pointing to when he talks about "nausea". The fact of the matter is that jacking with the central nervous system is frought with risks and is useful only to the extent that it exposes the machinery of cognition for what it is. I've finally put my hand to the plow and begun to carry out the instructions of my Sufi preceptor in ernest. The simple exercise of sitting for an hour a day trying to find the sensation of your own beating heart inside your own chest, and then breathing "into" the sensation, produces effects that are far beyond any drug I'VE ever had any experience with. I thought that the luminous quality of my most beautiful childhood memories were just a product of the openess of childhood and the simplicity of the fifties. Now I find that everything is inwardly illumined with a golden (yes golden) luminosity and warmth. There is a feeling of "presence" in the chest that give the sense of having something like a "magnet" in the chest giving you a sense of direction. Please go find a copy of "Sufism The Reality of Religion" by Angha. It's being carried by both Border's and Barne's and Noble's and has just come out. It is simply dumbfounding...the plainess of Angha's presentation of the Sufi theory and method would've make Joseph Smith smile. I swear it made me feel like the good ol' days when my "bosom burned within" while reading Hyrum Andrus or Hugh Nibley. Beth--I'm going to call this weekend if it's still OK. I've been in a bit of a pickle with job stuff and it should be squared away by Friday. Luv ya' all, Ken Shaw Did anyone else see GBH on Larry King? I was really impressed with the SuperMormon! Larry seemed quite overwhelmed, by this agreeable fellow with the angelic smile. First, we had LDS and LSD. Now, we have GBH and GHB! It reminds me of RAW's hilarious observation regarding George Bush and Dan Quayle, that they are named after female genitals. Sometimes I just have to confess that I don't know what the heck is going on around here! I'm dumbfounded. dumbfondled proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: gems Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:52:18 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus Here are a few gems from The Sufis; Paraclesus: Read with the heart until at some future time the true religion will come. Speaking of Alchemy: Only its concealment in chemical phraseology prevents its being attacked as _private enterprise human progress_ outside the Church. One wonders if radical mormons are also involved in private enterprise human progress. Does this have anything to do with being anxiously engaged, or seeking the good in all things? On the Philosopher's Stone as medicine: After the mind is concentrated and transformed in a certain way, the result is the stone-certain _power_. This stone is projected upon the patient who recovers. This brings to mind a wiccan energy concentration and release, which I routinely use to relieve my herniated disk. I also once cured my wife's headache with it. I'm also reminded of the conundrum; power of the priesthood vs. power _in_ the priesthood. I am also saddened that these things are not made more explicit. I never got it until Starhawk hit me over the head, as it were, with the plainest of language. Priesthood power does not refer to some distant reservior. "The secret stone is the source and essence of life itself."!!!! Our own name is writen inside. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: I squared Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:40:09 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus Hail Mutants, I'm still hacking at the Sufis, when I get a free moment for it. It got rather tiresome reading all that real history about dead arabs ;-}. I can see why some people never get past the Islanders (an excellent and highly recommended chapter. Anyway, I'm glad that I stuck with it, because the later material on The Secret Language is truly fascinating. The Philosopher's Stone is blowing me away. I think that there is something here; Gazalem=Ghazali=Urim and Thummim. His language is strongly remeniscent of KG Temple's discussion of the star and the hidden stone. (Did I ever tell you folks that I did a survey of the medieval shining stone literature years ago. This stuff is earth-shaking, esp. for Mormons.) His description of the Enoch/Hermes/Thoth/Idris current in light of the Sufi teachings on the perfected man is truly inspiring. The comparison to the King of the Fish (Dhu'l-Nun) took me back. Is this also Oannes? Well, I'm not giving up on The Sufis, yet. I'm also thinking of reading a book on Arab history. I can give you the title, when I get home. And now for something completely different.... I am reminded that while there is tremendous species pressure vectored at higher intelligence (maybe with the help of Enoch-like figures), this is not always true for the individual. Also, there always seems to be people that want to keep us happy and dumb. Shall we call them the black brotherhood? If we are opiated, we are no threat to them (cf Karl Marx). Have I recommended the Lycaeum to this meritorious group? Here are a couple of links. http://www.lycaeum.org/ http://www.lycaeum.org/~martins/Drinx/ The second link is an excellent designer smart drinks engine! Here is what it recommends for me. Neuronectar Smart Drink Expert System Here's the Recipe! Ingredient Amount Fo-Ti 1/4 tsp Guarana 150 mg DMAE 100 mg Piracetam 800 mg L-Phenylalanine 1/4 tsp Ephedra 100 mg Ginseng 1 tsp L-Tyrosine 1/4 tsp I was impressed because this is very close to the smart drinks that I typically use or make for myself. BTW, I love being a Biochemist. I know what I am doing with most of this stuff most of the time. Take DMAE for example. This is a supurb drug. It has zero toxicity. In contrast to the other compounds listed, it is infrequently found on the FDA problem list (almost never!). It is very cheap and found in most health food stores. It's intelligence enhancement is predictably dependent on dosage. DMAE stands in stark contrast to ephedra, the demon drug/kidney killer ;-}. Caffiene is also a kidney killer, but like ephedra, it is indespensible and should be on the above list. The trick is simply to control the dose, and drink alot of water. I must diverge, and tell you a little story. For years, I have been telling a friend of ours how stupid most people are, when it comes to cola. Mormons are usually particularly stupid about cola. We should rise up and bless God everyday for cola, because the caffeine, that blessed intelligence enhancing chemical, is unadulterated by the aldehyde poisons that are found in coffee! Caffeine is not against the word of wisdom, rather coffee. Think about it. BTW, I had to laff, when our bishop told us that Starbuck's Java Chip ice cream is not against the word of wisdom and proceeded to sign our recommends. It IS one of our favorites, after all, and is by no means a "hot drink". ;-} When Nutrasweet is added to cola, it becomes a nootropic cocktail. I could not have decided to make a better drink, yet it has accidentally become the beverage of choice for millions of unknowing neuronauts. Diet cola has all the caffiene, but none of the sugar. Sugar rots your teeth, and is none too good for your kidneys either. Nutrasweet on the other hand enhances intelligence. Nutrasweet does _not_ attract bees, which should comfort the allergic. Don't add sugar to your smart drinks. Add Nutrasweet. 24 packs=1 cup of sugar. Everyone should drink at least 3 cans of diet cola every day, but make it store brand. It's alot cheaper. Besides, CocaCola Corp. SUCKS! Well, this friend of ours developed diabetis. She went to her doctor, who told her to drink diet soda. When she objected, the doctor confirmed everything that I have told her in vain for years! Well duh, she should have listened to me. =} I'm getting some Piracetam in a few weeks, and thanx to Andy, I have a lifetime supply of Ephedra in the chemical form of ephidrine. I recommend it over Ephedra, since it is easier to control the dose. After getting all of this hammered out, I went to the campus bookstore to get some allergy medicine, and I found a small packet of ephedra, right next to the Vivarine and NoDoze. This was striking, because many states have made ephidrine illegal. The reason for this is that hundreds of young ravers have tried to kill their kidneys by overdosing and then dehydrating on the dance floor. Pretty stupid, no? Anyway, intrigued, I attempted to purchase the ephedra. The price was not marked, so it crossed my mind that someone had put it on the shelf as a prank. Well, I was right. The manager came and immediately removed it from the shelf. They wouldn't even sell me the one packet that I had picked up. When I asked if I could just have it, I received a firm NO!. Don't believe the corporate propoganda. Public hysteria happens. The inquisition never ended. Be careful, intelligence is sometimes a crime (cf Timothy Leary, cf George Orwell). think good thoughts, know too much ;-} proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Sufi class Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:14:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: Darvish33@aol.com Hail Mutants! Tonight's Sufi class for english speakers was the first one I had been to in months because of all the foolishness around my "relationship" with this girl from Pocatello. The shocks that I went through with that seemed to peel away several layers of "self". It seems that everytime I think I've finally got to the level of the actual "me", another more subtle layer of "fantasy" begins to bubble up and peel away. Today I was thinking about one of the humble guys who acts as kind of a "doorman" at the Sufi center. I was just thinking about how I had brushed over him and so many others because their "ordinaryness" and my self-absorbed pride. As his image came to my mind with a feeling of affection and remorse, I had a very vivid visual flash of something like a blue tile arabesque design in an oval shape. The mental image was oddly vivid, almost photographic, utterly different from my usual experience of mental imagery. Tonight I went to Sufi class with a new heart. I went as a student, rather than a know-it-all who'd read a little Idris Shah and a little Gurdjieff and too much Wilson. I had been so convinced of my personal connection to Idries Shah that I looked down on the authority of the Pir of the Order I was seeking instruction from. That is a formula for disaster. But tonight I went armed with faith and respect for the Pir, because I actually took the time to read some of the writings of the Pir, as well as applied myself to the begining concentration exercises. Tonight I enter into a new level of intereraction with the teacher, the realization that he can "see" what's happening in me, and that he can perceive whatever state I'm in. This is a big step for me to take because of the depth of my disillusionment when I dawned on the that the Pristhood leaders in the Church that I had entrusted my life to....had NO such insights. Any way, I've got to get to bed...I've got a job interview in the morning. Goodnight all, Ken Shaw Subject: [Fwd: bundle] Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:14:40 -0400 From: Michael Love To: proclus Subject: bundle Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:52:13 -0400 From: Michael Love To: proclus Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: I need help!]] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:38:52 -0500 From: Michael Love To: "proclus@mac.com" -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: I need help!] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:25:26 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , "proclus@mac.com" , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: I need help! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:47:10 -0700 From: Annie To: mutants@iname.com I'm doing a presentaion this week on the question "Is it ok to call God Mother" and I'm looking for different opinions. If you could send me an email soon with your beliefs on this topic I would really appreciate it! Thanks for your help! -Annie Subject: [Fwd: I need help!] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:47:01 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , "proclus@mac.com" , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" Subject: RE: I need help! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:09:35 -0400 From: "McGuire, Andy" To: 'Annie' , mutants Annie, My beliefs? Down in the deepest depths of my soul, I believe that there is no God or Goddess in the literal sense, and it is all a moot point. But I do believe that I am here with some higher purpose and some nebulous higher source is out there pulling the strings. I find it easier and more comforting to personify that higher source as female. I usually refer to Her as 'The Goddess', and only refer to her as Mother when I feel a need to cast her in that role. As for the 'Is it OK?' part, it all depends on the context. In your own personal worship, it is by all means good. But I have a problem with people who use the Mother or Goddess reference as an 'in your face' thing in a formal setting. I am thinking here of a typical Mormon Sacrament Meeting setting. I guess that leaves one leading a double life where you use FATHER at church, then MOTHER at home... and at the next Sunstone Symposium. Does that help? -AJ > -----Original Message----- > From: Annie [SMTP:ahumphreys@mail.whitworth.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 1:47 AM > To: mutants > Subject: I need help! > > I'm doing a presentaion this week on the question "Is it ok to call God > Mother" and I'm looking for different opinions. If you could send me an > email soon with your beliefs on this topic I would really appreciate it! > Thanks for your help! > > -Annie > Subject: Re: [Fwd: I need help!] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:54:00 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Annie References: 1 > Subject: I need help! > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:47:10 -0700 > From: Annie > To: mutants@iname.com > > I'm doing a presentaion this week on the question "Is it ok to call God > Mother" and I'm looking for different opinions. Just ask Her if she minds being called Mother. That may be the most important opinion, right? Parenthood is a wonderful analogy in my opinion. In our family, when the kids ask Dad a question, they often get a quick answer from Mom, or visa versa. Goodluck with your presentation. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: LDS=Gentiles] Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:51:09 -0400 From: proclus To: proclus@mac.com Subject: LDS=Gentiles Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Clark, Thank you for your kind and lucid response. It is my impression that the organization of the LDS Church is almost an incidental after-thought, compared to the centrality of the Book of Mormon itself and the destiny of the "remnant" of the House of Israel in "America" ("Lamanites"). There is no essential connection between the various "Churches" that claim Joseph Smith as their founder and the "mission" of the the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. If the "Lamanites" are realy are blood Israelites then they don't have to go to the Gentiles to get their blessings, the Priesthood is theirs by right of blood, all they need is the Book of Mormon to "bring them to remembrance". you said-- >The early brethren seem to have had a fairly naive reading of >the Book of Mormon. It really wasn't studied that much but was >more a token to establish a testimony. They mainly used the >Bible for doctrine. The naive reading was that all of the >Americas was the location for the Book of Mormon and the >Indians were rhetorically called Lamanites. Joseph Smith is the begining, middle and end of Mormonism. I have a real problem with the idea that some we now have a better understanding of the meaning of our religion than those men who mingled their blood with Joseph's on the floor of Cathage Jail and entered into profound visionary states with him as he recieved the Word of YHVH and lived day in and day out with him for years. Heber C. Kimbal was such a powerful visionary that he could induce visions in others by touching them, just as Joseph had done with him back in Kirtland. You can't tell me that somehow we now have a better grasp of reality than those men had. I said-- >?-Mormonism saw itself as the begining of the regathering of >>the "Lost Ten Tribes Israel" and that they would be >>reintegrated into the Israel of Judah. I can only assume >>that this would entail some kind of Torah observance. ___ you said-- >I don't see why that would entail observance of dietary laws. >If we were to do that, why weren't they mentioned in the D&C? >What do you mean by Torah observance? Why do you feel this >is entailed? There are two issues here. First the LDS Church is a "Gentile" church. Bloodline is immaterial to membership in the LDS Church. It's organized by geogrphical area rather than who you belong to in the Patriarchal Order. The "Israel" part of the restoration dosn't start until the Patriarchal Blessings start and the work of sealing men to men in Adoption and women to men in Celestial (plural) Marriage. The D&C is only for the governance of the LDS Church. The Patriachal Order has it's own governance refered to as the "perfect law of theocracy" and follows strick family lines...it has nothing whatsover to do with where you live or the geographical boundries of Wards and Stakes. The man who stand in Adam's place holds the "right of the Firstborn" and is as God to the people. Those sealed to this man as sons are the second tier of hierachy who stand as Gods and Saviors to those wives and sons who are sealed to them, and the government radiates out from the center in that manner. Brigham Young was trying to do both the LDS Church and the "Church of the Firstborn" at the the same time and in parallel with each other, and the understanding was that the LDS Church was to eventally pass away and the people become "Israel" literally. Brigham Young already started this process by advocating not eating pork in his public addresses and the keeping of the Jubilee years in Utah. I have been doing alot of work with people outside of the LDS world who beleive in the literal regathering of the Lost Ten Tribes and who are working closly with legitimate Rabbis on the halachic problems of how Israel of Judah would going about bringing "returnees" from the Northern Tribes BACK into legal relationship with Israel. There is no way that anyone who thinks he is a blood Israelite is going to be legaly reunited with the Israel of Judah and not have some obligation to keep Torah. Thanks for all your kindness, Ken Shaw __________________________________________________________________ Subject: Adoption Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:02:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Clark, >Anyone know anything about who Joseph was sealed to or any >historical views on the issue? My fragmentary understanding is that the early Brethren understood that Joseph Smith was crowned King of the Kingdom of God by blood right, and that Joseph was in a senior line of decent from Jesus himself. I believe that it was understood that Joseph was sealed to Jesus as per the Partriarchal Order and that Jesus is sealed to Father Adam, this making the whole thing center in Adam, who stands as God to the whole human family. I hope this helps, Kenneth Shaw ____________________________________________________________________ Subject: LDS=Gentiles Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:50:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: m-kabbalah@egroups.com Dear Friends, I need to say what what I've come to believe about the LDS Church and the nature of our times. In the book of 3 Nephi Jesus makes several prophecies and statements that refer specificaly to the LDS Church in our time. 3 Nephi 16:4 "And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone,......that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept, and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fullness of the Gentiles the remnant of their seed (Lamanites), who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, ot may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer." {The sayings are the Book of Mormon, and the Gentiles are the LDS Church who carry the Book of Mormon to the Indians. Anyone have a problem with that?} 16:6-8 "And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father. Behold, because of their belief in me, sayeth the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter days shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them. But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles---for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from amoung them. and have been trodden under feet by them" {There seems to be a division between those Gentiles to whom "the fulness of these things shall be made known" (Book of Mormon), and the "unbelieving of the Gentiles" who commit genocide against the Indians. So it looks like the LDS Church is expicitly refered to as "the Gentiles" in this passage.} This next is the killer-- 16:10 "And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations;and if they shall do all these things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them". {This verse is one of the few places in all of revealed scripture where the Father is being being quoted directly, and says that the Gentiles "shall sin against MY gospel, and shall reject the fulness of MY gospel". Since the ordinaces of the Temple fall under the authority of the "Fullness of the Priesthood", called the "Right of the Firstborn" and is the Priesthood of Father Adam, this passage suggest that the "gospel of the Father" is the laws and ordinances of the Temple, e.g. obedience and sacrifice, consecration and plural marraige. It looks to me like the fulness of the Father's gospel was taken from among us on that fatefull day when the last United Order (Orderville) was forcibly disbanded to make way for statehood, and then plural marraige went from being the path of heros to being a shamefull reminder of a "kinky" past.} 16:11,12 "And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel." {The fulness of the Father's gospel will be taken from the Gentiles (LDS Church) and given to the house of Israel (Indians). Does any one have a problem with this? It doesn't matter if it doesn't look like any of this actualy happened in real history, THIS IS WHAT THE TEXT SAYS. The old time "fundmentalists" point out that the fatefull year of 1890 saw the sudden birth of the Ghost Dance Religion among the Indians in Nevada leading to the last uprising against the whites} But what are we to do?----- 16:13-15 "But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. And I will not suffer my people who are of the the house of Israel to go through among them and tread them down, sayeth the Father. But if they will not turn unto me, and harken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and s hall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that has lost it's savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing bu to be cast out and troddened under foot of my people, O house of Israel." {Only the LDS Church could "repent and return", this can't be talking about the USA in general. Only the LDS Church could be "as salt that has lost it's savor". What are we to do? Get ourselves to the place where we are "numbered among" the houae of Israel. How are we to do this? BY RETURNING TO OUR HEBREW ROOTS, as well as keeping the Covenants of the Fulness of the Father's Gospel. 1--Keep the simple dietary laws of Torah...no pork or shellfish or any other unclean food. 2--Keep the Seventh Day (Saturday) Sabbath from sundown to sundown. 3--Keep the Biblical holy days...Passover, Day of Atonement ect. rather than the Roman holidays of Christmas and Easter and Forth of July. 4--Start studying Torah from the hebrew using the many study aids available today....think of what the Prophet Joseph Smith could have done with all the Bible software so cheaply available now. 5--Keep the truest and oldest of the LDS traditions...fasting, "mighty prayer", Priesthood blessings of anointing the sick and dedication of homes and casting out of evil spirits, periodic (monthly?) rebaptism for cleansing from sin as well as rebaptism for the healing of the sick, natural medicine and health cuture, wearing on the original Temple Garments if you are in a position to do so, being "saviors" to your own children rather than letting them go to the devil (home schooling ect.), growing your food, making your own clothes, ect. ect. ect. 6--Bear one another's burdens any way we can...share each other's joys and sorrows and be there for each other in any way we can. Jesus said "If ye are not one, ye are not mine". I say all this in the Name of Christ, Kenneth Shaw Subject: [Fwd: bundle] Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:14:40 -0400 From: Michael Love To: proclus Subject: bundle Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:52:13 -0400 From: Michael Love To: proclus Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: I need help!]] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:38:52 -0500 From: Michael Love To: "proclus@mac.com" -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: I need help!] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:25:26 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , "proclus@mac.com" , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: I need help! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:47:10 -0700 From: Annie To: mutants@iname.com I'm doing a presentaion this week on the question "Is it ok to call God Mother" and I'm looking for different opinions. If you could send me an email soon with your beliefs on this topic I would really appreciate it! Thanks for your help! -Annie Subject: [Fwd: I need help!] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:47:01 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , "proclus@mac.com" , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" Subject: RE: I need help! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:09:35 -0400 From: "McGuire, Andy" To: 'Annie' , mutants Annie, My beliefs? Down in the deepest depths of my soul, I believe that there is no God or Goddess in the literal sense, and it is all a moot point. But I do believe that I am here with some higher purpose and some nebulous higher source is out there pulling the strings. I find it easier and more comforting to personify that higher source as female. I usually refer to Her as 'The Goddess', and only refer to her as Mother when I feel a need to cast her in that role. As for the 'Is it OK?' part, it all depends on the context. In your own personal worship, it is by all means good. But I have a problem with people who use the Mother or Goddess reference as an 'in your face' thing in a formal setting. I am thinking here of a typical Mormon Sacrament Meeting setting. I guess that leaves one leading a double life where you use FATHER at church, then MOTHER at home... and at the next Sunstone Symposium. Does that help? -AJ > -----Original Message----- > From: Annie [SMTP:ahumphreys@mail.whitworth.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 1:47 AM > To: mutants > Subject: I need help! > > I'm doing a presentaion this week on the question "Is it ok to call God > Mother" and I'm looking for different opinions. If you could send me an > email soon with your beliefs on this topic I would really appreciate it! > Thanks for your help! > > -Annie > Subject: Re: [Fwd: I need help!] Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:54:00 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Annie References: 1 > Subject: I need help! > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:47:10 -0700 > From: Annie > To: mutants@iname.com > > I'm doing a presentaion this week on the question "Is it ok to call God > Mother" and I'm looking for different opinions. Just ask Her if she minds being called Mother. That may be the most important opinion, right? Parenthood is a wonderful analogy in my opinion. In our family, when the kids ask Dad a question, they often get a quick answer from Mom, or visa versa. Goodluck with your presentation. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: LDS=Gentiles] Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:51:09 -0400 From: proclus To: proclus@mac.com Subject: LDS=Gentiles Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Clark, Thank you for your kind and lucid response. It is my impression that the organization of the LDS Church is almost an incidental after-thought, compared to the centrality of the Book of Mormon itself and the destiny of the "remnant" of the House of Israel in "America" ("Lamanites"). There is no essential connection between the various "Churches" that claim Joseph Smith as their founder and the "mission" of the the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. If the "Lamanites" are realy are blood Israelites then they don't have to go to the Gentiles to get their blessings, the Priesthood is theirs by right of blood, all they need is the Book of Mormon to "bring them to remembrance". you said-- >The early brethren seem to have had a fairly naive reading of >the Book of Mormon. It really wasn't studied that much but was >more a token to establish a testimony. They mainly used the >Bible for doctrine. The naive reading was that all of the >Americas was the location for the Book of Mormon and the >Indians were rhetorically called Lamanites. Joseph Smith is the begining, middle and end of Mormonism. I have a real problem with the idea that some we now have a better understanding of the meaning of our religion than those men who mingled their blood with Joseph's on the floor of Cathage Jail and entered into profound visionary states with him as he recieved the Word of YHVH and lived day in and day out with him for years. Heber C. Kimbal was such a powerful visionary that he could induce visions in others by touching them, just as Joseph had done with him back in Kirtland. You can't tell me that somehow we now have a better grasp of reality than those men had. I said-- >?-Mormonism saw itself as the begining of the regathering of >>the "Lost Ten Tribes Israel" and that they would be >>reintegrated into the Israel of Judah. I can only assume >>that this would entail some kind of Torah observance. ___ you said-- >I don't see why that would entail observance of dietary laws. >If we were to do that, why weren't they mentioned in the D&C? >What do you mean by Torah observance? Why do you feel this >is entailed? There are two issues here. First the LDS Church is a "Gentile" church. Bloodline is immaterial to membership in the LDS Church. It's organized by geogrphical area rather than who you belong to in the Patriarchal Order. The "Israel" part of the restoration dosn't start until the Patriarchal Blessings start and the work of sealing men to men in Adoption and women to men in Celestial (plural) Marriage. The D&C is only for the governance of the LDS Church. The Patriachal Order has it's own governance refered to as the "perfect law of theocracy" and follows strick family lines...it has nothing whatsover to do with where you live or the geographical boundries of Wards and Stakes. The man who stand in Adam's place holds the "right of the Firstborn" and is as God to the people. Those sealed to this man as sons are the second tier of hierachy who stand as Gods and Saviors to those wives and sons who are sealed to them, and the government radiates out from the center in that manner. Brigham Young was trying to do both the LDS Church and the "Church of the Firstborn" at the the same time and in parallel with each other, and the understanding was that the LDS Church was to eventally pass away and the people become "Israel" literally. Brigham Young already started this process by advocating not eating pork in his public addresses and the keeping of the Jubilee years in Utah. I have been doing alot of work with people outside of the LDS world who beleive in the literal regathering of the Lost Ten Tribes and who are working closly with legitimate Rabbis on the halachic problems of how Israel of Judah would going about bringing "returnees" from the Northern Tribes BACK into legal relationship with Israel. There is no way that anyone who thinks he is a blood Israelite is going to be legaly reunited with the Israel of Judah and not have some obligation to keep Torah. Thanks for all your kindness, Ken Shaw __________________________________________________________________ Subject: Adoption Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:02:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Clark, >Anyone know anything about who Joseph was sealed to or any >historical views on the issue? My fragmentary understanding is that the early Brethren understood that Joseph Smith was crowned King of the Kingdom of God by blood right, and that Joseph was in a senior line of decent from Jesus himself. I believe that it was understood that Joseph was sealed to Jesus as per the Partriarchal Order and that Jesus is sealed to Father Adam, this making the whole thing center in Adam, who stands as God to the whole human family. I hope this helps, Kenneth Shaw ____________________________________________________________________ Subject: LDS=Gentiles Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:50:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus@aol.com To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: m-kabbalah@egroups.com Dear Friends, I need to say what what I've come to believe about the LDS Church and the nature of our times. In the book of 3 Nephi Jesus makes several prophecies and statements that refer specificaly to the LDS Church in our time. 3 Nephi 16:4 "And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone,......that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept, and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fullness of the Gentiles the remnant of their seed (Lamanites), who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, ot may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer." {The sayings are the Book of Mormon, and the Gentiles are the LDS Church who carry the Book of Mormon to the Indians. Anyone have a problem with that?} 16:6-8 "And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father. Behold, because of their belief in me, sayeth the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter days shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them. But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles---for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from amoung them. and have been trodden under feet by them" {There seems to be a division between those Gentiles to whom "the fulness of these things shall be made known" (Book of Mormon), and the "unbelieving of the Gentiles" who commit genocide against the Indians. So it looks like the LDS Church is expicitly refered to as "the Gentiles" in this passage.} This next is the killer-- 16:10 "And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and pri estcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations;and if they shall do all these things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them". {This verse is one of the few places in all of revealed scripture where the Father is being being quoted directly, and says that the Gentiles "shall sin against MY gospel, and shall reject the fulness of MY gospel". Since the ordinaces of the Temple fall under the authority of the "Fullness of the Priesthood", called the "Right of the Firstborn" and is the Priesthood of Father Adam, this passage suggest that the "gospel of the Father" is the laws and ordinances of the Temple, e.g. obedience and sacrifice, consecration and plural marraige. It looks to me like the fulness of the Father's gospel was taken from among us on that fatefull day when the last United Order (Orderville) was forcibly disbanded to make way for statehood, and then plural marraige went from being the path of heros to being a shamefull reminder of a "kinky" past.} 16:11,12 "And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel." {The fulness of the Father's gospel will be taken from the Gentiles (LDS Church) and given to the house of Israel (Indians). Does any one have a problem with this? It doesn't matter if it doesn't look like any of this actualy happened in real history, THIS IS WHAT THE TEXT SAYS. The old time "fundmentalists" point out that the fatefull year of 1890 saw the sudden birth of the Ghost Dance Religion among the Indians in Nevada leading to the last uprising against the whites} But what are we to do?----- 16:13-15 "But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. And I will not suffer my people who are of the the house of Israel to go through among them and tread them down, sayeth the Father. But if they will not turn unto me, and harken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that has lost it's savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing bu to be cast out and troddened under foot of my people, O house of Israel." {Only the LDS Church could "repent and return", this can't be talking about the USA in general. Only the LDS Church could be "as salt that has lost it's savor". What are we to do? Get ourselves to the place where we are "numbered among" the houae of Israel. How are we to do this? BY RETURNING TO OUR HEBREW ROOTS, as well as keeping the Covenants of the Fulness of the Father's Gospel. 1--Keep the simple dietary laws of Torah...no pork or shellfish or any other unclean food. 2--Keep the Seventh Day (Saturday) Sabbath from sundown to sundown. 3--Keep the Biblical holy days...Passover, Day of Atonement ect. rather than the Roman holidays of Christmas and Easter and Forth of July. 4--Start studying Torah from the hebrew using the many study aids available today....think of what the Prophet Joseph Smith could have done with all the Bible software so cheaply available now. 5--Keep the truest and oldest of the LDS traditions...fasting, "mighty prayer", Priesthood blessings of anointing the sick and dedication of homes and casting out of evil spirits, periodic (monthly?) rebaptism for cleansing from sin as well as rebaptism for the healing of the sick, natural medicine and health cuture, wearing on the original Temple Garments if you are in a position to do so, being "saviors" to your own children rather than letting them go to the devil (home schooling ect.), growing your food, making your own clothes, ect. ect. ect. 6--Bear one another's burdens any way we can...share each other's joys and sorrows and be there for each other in any way we can. Jesus said "If ye are not one, ye are not mine". I say all this in the Name of Christ, Kenneth Shaw

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