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Subject: nice quote Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:47:29 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love , Julie Love , "Shawn M. Love" , Cyrus Love , Mom , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts Sorry for the spam. I just loved this quote, and wanted to share it. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling. -Margaret Lee Runbeck ------------------------------------------------------------------ Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: nice quote Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:16:12 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Michael Love , Michael Love , Julie Love , "Shawn M. Love" , Cyrus Love , Mom , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts I personally like a similar quote by Barbera B. Smith: "Goals are stars to steer yourself by, not sticks to beat yourself with." Re: good book Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:00:06 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus@aol.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, Beth Quick , rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" ___Kerry___ I am intersted in getting the VanderKam books on Enoch. He is an awfully good Dead Sea Scroll scholar....... ----- The books are "Enoch: A Man for All Generations" and "The Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity." It appears that the origin of the tradition of Enoch's Pillars is found in the apocalyptic "Life of Adam and Eve." According to VanderKam, the Greek ms. is dated to 100 CE and does not mention Enoch, but the Latin version contains a Christian addition which does mention him in a way that is quite meaningful for Freemasons. As I mentioned to Art, this is important for Latter-day Saints as well. Oliver Cowdery discusses the Pillars of Enoch in connection with the Book of Abraham, and states that the story may be found in Josephus. While Josephus' account does mention the pillars, it does NOT mention Enoch at all in connection with them. However, Freemasons CLAIMED that the story in Josephus was the source of their "Pillars of Enoch" tradition, and Cowdery clearly follows this Masonic tradition in his remarks. This suggests that the "pedigree" of the LDS Enoch tradition may include Freemasonry. In fact, the LDS Enoch tradition bears a striking resemblance to the Masonic tradition, as found in works such as George Oliver's "Antiquities of Freemasonry." Oliver discusses the science of astronomy among the Patriarchs and in ancient Egypt. He states the tradition that Astronomy was introduced either by Enoch or by Adam, and then notes: "Berosus, who collected the ancient Chaldean monuments, and published treatises of their astronomy and philosophy, gave an account, in his history, of a man among the Chaldeans in the tenth generation after the Flood, 'who was righteous, and great, and skilful in the celestial science;' which character agrees with that of Abraham, who is said by Josephus to have taught the Egyptians astronomy and arithmetic, of which sciences they were utterly ignorant before his time." The actual passage from Josephus is found in Antiquities 1. 7.1-2 and 8.2: "Berosus mentions our father Abram without naming him, when he says thus: 'In the tenth generation after the Flood, there was among the Chaldeans a man righteous and great, and skillful in the celestial science' .... For whereas the Egyptians were formerly addicted to different customs, and despised one another's sacred and accustomed rites, and were very angry one with another on that account, Abram conferred with each of them, and, confuting the reasonings they made use of, every one for their own practices, demonstrated that such reasonings were vain and void of truth: whereupon he was admired by them in those conferences as a very wise man, and one of great sagacity, when he discoursed on any subject he undertook; and this not only in understanding it, but in persuading other men also to assent to him. He communicated to them arithmetic, and delivered to them the science of astronomy; for before Abram came into Egypt they were unacquainted with those parts of learning; for that science came from the Chaldeans into Egypt, and from thence to the Greeks also. " (Antiquities 1.7.2 and 1.8.2). Another interesting tradition that has some connection with Freemasonry is explained as follows: "Before Enoch assumed the superintendence of our Order... Adam ... was yet living, and his authority was sufficient to restrain the race over which he possessed the SUPREME GOVERNMENT, AS KING, PRIEST AND PROPHET" (Antiquities 56). "Enoch ... was ... installed Grand Master [i.e., become KING PRIEST AND PROPHET -- jsw] , with such effect, that God vouchsafed, by immediate revelation, to communicate to him some peculiar mysteries, in token of his approbation. The most valuable of these, according to old traditions, was that SACRED NAME OR WORD, which demands our utmost veneration.... [Enoch] called a SPECIAL ASSEMBLY of Masons ... and in the presence of Adam, Seth, Jared his father, and Methusaleh his son, he enumerated the accumulating wickedness of man.... It was here that ADAM communicated that terrible prophecy [which according to Masonic tradition were recorded on the pillars of Enoch -- jsw], that all mankind, except a few just persons, should so far swerve from their allegiance to God, as to cause the destruction of all created things by water and fire" (Ibid 56-7). So, we have here the notion of the supreme governing authority resting upon Adam, who is Prophet, Priest, and King, and a grand council called, where the righteous posterity of Adam meet and are instructed by the Patriarch, who utters a "terrible prophecy." There is much more of interest along these same lines, including a discussion of the Golden Plate of Enoch, as is also mentioned in some detail in Webb's Illustrations. It seems that Joseph Smith's use of the name ENOCH for himself was not devoid of significance. JSW Subject: belated laff Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:39:29 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" JSW wrote: > ___Terry Shirts___ HEEEEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-}> proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:55:13 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" Kerry Shirts sez: > Sooooooo. we may literally be children of the stars as well as stardust, > and return from whence we came..... Who knows? I think the ancient ideas > here in the scrolls are most interesting as they appear to both (the > scrolls and the Bible) come from the ancient Egyptian conceptions....... > I'll do more study on this and keep you up to par....... We can't let this one drop guys. I am astounded by the parallels in Joseph Smith, as well as Uncle Al and others. They were verily turned on to the mediterranean astral cycle, bright as the sun, clear as the moon, and terrible as, well, you know. Then there is all the wonderful astronomic stuff in the book of abraham. How about Astarte? Nuit? >From Uncle Al, we have this ruby aster; the unveiling of the company of heaven - every man and woman is a star. There's more. Does anyone want to discuss? I am also reminded of elsewhere; the stars are called the archons, the ruling ones of heaven, the heavenly host, the holy council. According to the book of abraham, we were there ;-}. And we have this promise, that we will rule as kings and queens, priests and priestesses. We cannot even fathom our true identities. We only get a glimpse of our purpose here. Finally, a zinger from Uncle Tim. "Every man a high priest, every home a shrine. (proclus looks worshipfully at his wife.) Here we are getting close to the heavenly treasure house, the riches of eternity, the heretage of the sons of god. Regards, proclus - neon knight -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: The Satan Principle in Numbers 22?! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:06:00 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" Here is a little something for you. Clinton:scoundrel:devil:satan:slanderer:accuser:prosecuter:Starr You've got to love our adversarial system of Justice. hehe, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: the list Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:12:05 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" Howdy Beth. As far as I know this is going to the complete list. If there is anyone that should be added (or removed), just speak up folks. Regards, proclus > Howdy, > Is there a record of the time of day the church was organized? > If not is there some way we can aproximate when it was? > I would like to do an astrology chart for the organization of the church. > Is Bob Black still on this list? > It seems like the addresses above have thinned out. > > Thanks guys, > Beth > -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: the list Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:17:07 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" References: 1 BTW Beth, How's Gaia? Regards, proclus Michael Love wrote: > > Howdy Beth. As far as I know this is going to the complete list. If > there is anyone that should be added (or removed), just speak up folks. > > Regards, > proclus > > > Howdy, > > Is there a record of the time of day the church was organized? > > If not is there some way we can aproximate when it was? > > I would like to do an astrology chart for the organization of the church. > > Is Bob Black still on this list? > > It seems like the addresses above have thinned out. > > > > Thanks guys, > > Beth > > > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: the list] Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:31:08 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: RE: the list Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:01:24 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , ---------- From: Michael Love[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:17 PM To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: Re: the list BTW Beth, How's Gaia? Kerry asks: GAIA?!? Is she here???? Now that would be cool. I like that chick, er, I mean gal. If she's not here can we get her here? Kerry Subject: RE: good book Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:38:25 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , proclus , 'Joe Steve Swick III' CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" , Beth Quick , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" ---------- From: Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@cris.com] Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 11:00 AM To: Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; proclus Cc: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus@aol.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; Beth Quick; rpcman@hotmail.com; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; dcombe@rain.org; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: Re: good book ___Kerry___ I am intersted in getting the VanderKam books on Enoch. He is an awfully good Dead Sea Scroll scholar....... ----- The books are "Enoch: A Man for All Generations" and "The Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity." It appears that the origin of the tradition of Enoch's Pillars is found in the apocalyptic "Life of Adam and Eve." According to VanderKam, the Greek ms. is dated to 100 CE and does not mention Enoch, but the Latin version contains a Christian addition which does mention him in a way that is quite meaningful for Freemasons. As I mentioned to Art, this is important for Latter-day Saints as well. Oliver Cowdery discusses the Pillars of Enoch in connection with the Book of Abraham, and states that the story may be found in Josephus. While Josephus' account does mention the pillars, it does NOT mention Enoch at all in connection with them. However, Freemasons CLAIMED that the story in Josephus was the source of their "Pillars of Enoch" tradition, and Cowdery clearly follows this Masonic tradition in his remarks. This suggests that the "pedigree" of the LDS Enoch tradition may include Freemasonry. Kerry: And actually, Jeff Lindsay has an interesting article on just this idea on his website. If you guys need the URL let me know...... Joe: In fact, the LDS Enoch tradition bears a striking resemblance to the Masonic tradition, as found in works such as George Oliver's "Antiquities of Freemasonry." Oliver discusses the science of astronomy among the Patriarchs and in ancient Egypt. He states the tradition that Astronomy was introduced either by Enoch or by Adam, and then notes: "Berosus, who collected the ancient Chaldean monuments, and published treatises of their astronomy and philosophy, gave an account, in his history, of a man among the Chaldeans in the tenth generation after the Flood, 'who was righteous, and great, and skilful in the celestial science;' which character agrees with that of Abraham, who is said by Josephus to have taught the Egyptians astronomy and arithmetic, of which sciences they were utterly ignorant before his time." The actual passage from Josephus is found in Antiquities 1. 7.1-2 and 8.2: (snip to save space) Another interesting tradition that has some connection with Freemasonry is explained as follows: "Before Enoch assumed the superintendence of our Order... Adam ... was yet living, and his authority was sufficient to restrain the race over which he possessed the SUPREME GOVERNMENT, AS KING, PRIEST AND PROPHET" (Antiquities 56). "Enoch ... was ... installed Grand Master [i.e., become KING PRIEST AND PROPHET -- jsw] , with such effect, that God vouchsafed, by immediate revelation, to communicate to him some peculiar mysteries, in token of his approbation. The most valuable of these, according to old traditions, was that SACRED NAME OR WORD, which demands our utmost veneration.... [Enoch] called a SPECIAL ASSEMBLY of Masons ... and in the presence of Adam, Seth, Jared his father, and Methusaleh his son, he enumerated the accumulating wickedness of man.... It was here that ADAM communicated that terrible prophecy [which according to Masonic tradition were recorded on the pillars of Enoch -- jsw], that all mankind, except a few just persons, should so far swerve from their allegiance to God, as to cause the destruction of all created things by water and fire" (Ibid 56-7). So, we have here the notion of the supreme governing authority resting upon Adam, who is Prophet, Priest, and King, and a grand council called, where the righteous posterity of Adam meet and are instructed by the Patriarch, who utters a "terrible prophecy." There is much more of interest along these same lines, including a discussion of the Golden Plate of Enoch, as is also mentioned in some detail in Webb's Illustrations. It seems that Joseph Smith's use of the name ENOCH for himself was not devoid of significance. JSW Kerry: ACK! Man this is fascinating........I just read in the Dead Sea Scrolls where Michael is a being of light, and Adam in the Rabbinic Genesis accounts is ALSO a being of light, though his sin diminished his luminosity.......Utterly fascinating stuff man. Thanks for sharing....... Subject: First Darwin Award for 1999 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:11:17 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , proclus , 'Joe Steve Swick III' CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" , Beth Quick , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" The 1999 DARWIN AWARDS: > The first candidate! Already, the first candidate > for the 1999 Darwin Awards is circulating on the Net. > > The Darwin Awards are annually bestowed upon > the remains of) individuals who have given their > all in an effort to improve our gene pool. > The Darwin Awards applaud those who have > made the ultimate sacrifice of killing themselves > by the most extraordinarily stupid means. > The Awards commemorate those who find > innovatively moronic ways of killing themselves, > thereby helping to eliminate undesirable weaknesses > from the human gene pool. > > Without further ado, the first candidate for '99 is: > > MAN DIES IN FREAK ACCIDENT > CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (Nov. 13) -- > A 39-year-old Charlottesville man died Thursday in a > freak accident involving his washing machine. > According to police reports, Samuel Randolph Strickson > was doing laundry when he tried to speed up the > process. > > Strickson apparently tried to stuff approximately 50 > pounds of laundry into his washing machine by climbing > on top of the washer and attempting to force the clothing > into the basin. Strickson then apparently accidentally > kicked the washing machine's ON button. When the > machine turned on, Strickson lost his balance and both > feet went down into the machine, where they got stuck. > > The machine started its cycle, and Strickson, unable to > free himself, started thrashing around as the machine's > agitator went into gear. Strickson's head banged against a > nearby shelf in the laundry room, knocking over a bottle of > bleach, which poured over Strickson's face, blinding him. > Forensic reports say Strickson apparently also swallowed > some of the bleach. He then vomited, but was still unable > to free himself. > > Strickson's dog, then apparently came into the laundry room. > At about the same time, according to police, a large > box of baking soda fell from the shelf, startling the dog, who > then urinated. Urine, like vinegar, is acidic, and the chemical > reaction between the urine and the baking soda resulted in > a small explosion," according to police reports. The dog, > however, escaped unharmed. > > Strickson remained stuck in the washing machine, > which eventually went into its high-speed spin cycle, > spinning Strickson around at about 70 miles per hour, > according to forensic experts. Strickson's > head then smashed against a steel beam behind the > washing machine, immediately killing him. > > A neighbor heard the commotion and called 911, > but Strickson was pronounced dead at the scene. Subject: RE: belated laff Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:01:54 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , ---------- From: Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@cris.com] Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:38 PM To: Michael Love; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: Re: belated laff JSW wrote: ___Terry Shirts___ ___Proclus___ HEEEEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-}> --- Oops. Boy, was that Freudian or what? Sorry, Kerry. Kerry: That's Otay.........(GRIN!) Subject: Re: belated laff Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:38:40 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , JSW wrote: ___Terry Shirts___ ___Proclus___ HEEEEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-}> --- Oops. Boy, was that Freudian or what? Sorry, Kerry. Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:29:06 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , References: 1 Kerry, thanks for the attention to my post. When I read stuff like this, I am happy that we started mutantRMs, and that goes for JSW's Enoch material as well. Here is a place where I can say, "We are beings of light with a divine heretage and an unlimited potential". I think we should investigate this further. What are the implications of the fact that such beings have shown an interest in this planet? What can we do here? Did the ancients have an opinion about this? _Why_ did Oannes do it? How did Adam shape _his_ kingdom? I think that our goal should be to make good on the promises, right here, right now. Make our grandfather's proud. Warmest Regards, proclus Kerry Shirts wrote: > > ---------- > From: Mich a e l Love[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] > Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 6:55 PM > To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick > III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; > onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus; > Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce > Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators > > Kerry Shirts sez: > > Sooooooo. we may literally be children of the stars as well as stardust, > > and return from whence we came..... Who knows? I think the ancient ideas > > here in the scrolls are most interesting as they appear to both (the > > scrolls and the Bible) come from the ancient Egyptian conceptions....... > > I'll do more study on this and keep you up to par....... > > We can't let this one drop guys. I am astounded by the parallels in > Joseph Smith, as well as Uncle Al and others. They were verily turned > on to the mediterranean astral cycle, bright as the sun, clear as the > moon, and terrible as, well, you know. Then there is all the wonderful > astronomic stuff in the book of abraham. > > How about Astarte? Nuit? > > Kerry: > Each could by themselves carry us through reams and reams of > cyberspace.....and I am not against it....... > > Proclus: > >From Uncle Al, we have this ruby aster; the unveiling of the company of > heaven - every man and woman is a star. There's more. Does anyone want > to discuss? > > Kerry: > Oh hey....... by the way, on this weeks two day road trip I took, I read > Eisenman and Wise's book "DSS Uncovered," wherein I read something that for > the first time caused me to sit bolt upright and start thinking on. I'll > share it with my beloveds here..... > They note that the Archangel Michael is called "the guardian Angel of > Israel, and the Prince of Light." (p. 152). In fragment 3 on page 156 they > translate the Hebrew (Aramaic?) as reading "[My] three names are [Michael > and Prince of Lights and King of Righteousness.]" > Note the interesting idea of various names of one individual! Also note he > is describing himself as a Prince of Lights. The reason I bring this up is > because in the Rabbinic literature, ADAM is ALSO a PRINCE OF LIGHTS, or > even a shining being, or a light being! In the Genesis Rabbah, 6:2 it says > that one of the consequences of Adam sinning was the diminishing of his > luminosity. Now I don't know about all you here, but I find that > exquisitely fascinating.......Here perhaps for the first time do we > have.....have I perhaps found something akin to Joseph Smith's > understanding that Adam = Michael?! BOTH are described as beings of light, > so far, of which, no other angel is ever so described, nor any other human > so far as that goes.....The physical description is exactly the same and > with the same powerful and evocative theme, beings of light........soooooo, > just thinking out loud, but man what an idear here! > > Proclus: > I am also reminded of elsewhere; the stars are called the archons, the > ruling ones of heaven, the heavenly host, the holy council. According > to the book of abraham, we were there ;-}. And we have this promise, > that we will rule as kings and queens, priests and priestesses. We > cannot even fathom our true identities. We only get a glimpse of our > purpose here. > > Kerry: > Yep.........I have read this time and again in the DSS and OT and other > literature and scholarly analysis of the Bible, from William F. Albright, > to David Noel Freedman and beyond...... what awesome ideas! > > Kerry A. "All aglow" Shirts -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:06:17 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: proclus , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , Beth Quick , "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , ---------- From: house hold[SMTP:timquick@cwnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 1:11 AM To: proclus; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus@aol.com; jswick@cris.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; Beth Quick; rpcman@hotmail.com; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; dcombe@rain.org; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Howdy, Is there a record of the time of day the church was organized? If not is there some way we can aproximate when it was? I would like to do an astrology chart for the organization of the church. Is Bob Black still on this list? It seems like the addresses above have thinned out. Thanks guys, Beth Kerry: Uh, Beth deario......you ARE going to share your results of your research and chart with us aren't you? Pretty, PRETTY please........ Kerry A. "Curiousity got the cat slapped" Shirts Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:29:40 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , ---------- From: Michael Love[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 6:55 PM To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Kerry Shirts sez: > Sooooooo. we may literally be children of the stars as well as stardust, > and return from whence we came..... Who knows? I think the ancient ideas > here in the scrolls are most interesting as they appear to both (the > scrolls and the Bible) come from the ancient Egyptian conceptions....... > I'll do more study on this and keep you up to par....... We can't let this one drop guys. I am astounded by the parallels in Joseph Smith, as well as Uncle Al and others. They were verily turned on to the mediterranean astral cycle, bright as the sun, clear as the moon, and terrible as, well, you know. Then there is all the wonderful astronomic stuff in the book of abraham. How about Astarte? Nuit? Kerry: Each could by themselves carry us through reams and reams of cyberspace.....and I am not against it....... Proclus: >From Uncle Al, we have this ruby aster; the unveiling of the company of heaven - every man and woman is a star. There's more. Does anyone want to discuss? Kerry: Oh hey....... by the way, on this weeks two day road trip I took, I read Eisenman and Wise's book "DSS Uncovered," wherein I read something that for the first time caused me to sit bolt upright and start thinking on. I'll share it with my beloveds here..... They note that the Archangel Michael is called "the guardian Angel of Israel, and the Prince of Light." (p. 152). In fragment 3 on page 156 they translate the Hebrew (Aramaic?) as reading "[My] three names are [Michael and Prince of Lights and King of Righteousness.]" Note the interesting idea of various names of one individual! Also note he is describing himself as a Prince of Lights. The reason I bring this up is because in the Rabbinic literature, ADAM is ALSO a PRINCE OF LIGHTS, or even a shining being, or a light being! In the Genesis Rabbah, 6:2 it says that one of the consequences of Adam sinning was the diminishing of his luminosity. Now I don't know about all you here, but I find that exquisitely fascinating.......Here perhaps for the first time do we have.....have I perhaps found something akin to Joseph Smith's understanding that Adam = Michael?! BOTH are described as beings of light, so far, of which, no other angel is ever so described, nor any other human so far as that goes.....The physical description is exactly the same and with the same powerful and evocative theme, beings of light........soooooo, just thinking out loud, but man what an idear here! Proclus: I am also reminded of elsewhere; the stars are called the archons, the ruling ones of heaven, the heavenly host, the holy council. According to the book of abraham, we were there ;-}. And we have this promise, that we will rule as kings and queens, priests and priestesses. We cannot even fathom our true identities. We only get a glimpse of our purpose here. Kerry: Yep.........I have read this time and again in the DSS and OT and other literature and scholarly analysis of the Bible, from William F. Albright, to David Noel Freedman and beyond...... what awesome ideas! Kerry A. "All aglow" Shirts Subject: Gaia Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:41:59 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , > Kerry asks: > GAIA?!? Is she here???? Now that would be cool. I like that chick, er, I > mean gal. If she's not here can we get her here? She was here, but had to leave the list. She lost her email account or some such thing. She has a formidable presence in the archives though. It's a pleasure to have known her. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: mutant bundle Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 00:31:04 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus Here is an unusual request for you all. My wife and I are replacing our beautiful and ancient Dragonmaster deck. We completely wore out two of these things while playing the game for over 15 years. Now, we find out that it is unavailable, and gone for good. Sooo... we are going to replace it with a tarot deck. Uncannily, Amazon.com popped up with a bunch of tarot deck suggestions right on cue. I have to tell you that my jaw dropped when this happened, because we were just discussing it the night before. Their database is getting sooo formidable. I think I'm going to start using it for divination ;-}. We need a most beautiful deck that is good for _gaming_. Here is the list; 7.Morgan Greer Tarot Deck and Book Set (Deck&Book) ; Morgan Greer, et al 8.Renaissance Tarot Deck ; Brian Williams 9.Dragon Tarotdeck ; Peter Pracownik(Creator), Terry Donaldson (Creator) 10.Cosmic Tarot Deck & Book Set With Book ; 11.Universal Waite Tarot Deck ; Mary Hanson-Roberts(Creator), Arthur Edward Waite 12.Aquarian Tarot Deck ; David Palladini 13.Medieval Scapini Tarot Deck ; Luigi Scapini 14.Ancestral Path Tarot ; Us Games, et al Right off, I'd have to say that the Universal Waite deck is out. Although it is very useful esoterically, it is not particularly gorgeous. We are talking _hypnotic_ beauty here, PLUS, gaming functionality. I think that gaming functionality would mean that the deck is not too big to shuffle, and that the suits and ranks are pretty easy to tell apart. Perhaps the Thoth deck fails the functionality test. Please, give me a hand with this, if you can. If there is one that is not on the list, feel free to make a suggestion. THX! Regards, proclus FYI, Dragonmaster is like Bridge, Spades, and so on. Hehe, I believe that there is a game called Trumps that people used to play with Tarot Cards, right? It is probably also similar to that. -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ The Happy Mutant Handbook/Mischievous Fun for Higher Primates by Mark Frauenfelder (Editor), Carla Sinclair (Editor), Will Kreth, Gareth Branwyn Heyers folks. I was thinking of picking up this title for fun, as it seems somewhat relevant. Has anyone actually looked at this thing? Maybe it's too much old hat for me. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:06:12 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , Kerry Shirts , ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 12:29 PM To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Kerry, thanks for the attention to my post. When I read stuff like this, I am happy that we started mutantRMs, and that goes for JSW's Enoch material as well. Here is a place where I can say, "We are beings of light with a divine heretage and an unlimited potential". I think we should investigate this further. What are the implications of the fact that such beings have s ho wn an interest in this planet? What can we do here? Did the ancients have an opinion about this? _Why_ did Oannes do it? How did Adam shape _his_ kingdom? Kerry: Er, you lost me on this. Oannes, what did he do? And what have you read about this interesting......uh, shall I say creature/man?! I first read about Oannes in the book "The Sirius Mystery," by R.K.G. Temple, and was utterly astounded no end. What a read about the credits I guess what sorta miffed me was when he put Asimov's O.K. on the back of the book, but he hadn't given it. Oh well.......I suppose ya gotta take anything you can get right or wrong......GRIN! Anyway, on Oannes, why do you suppose he/she (?) was a fishman? What implications in mythology would that have? The idea that he came from the ocean to give wisdom to a fallen race, uh, well heck man, that rings strident bells does it not? I wouldn't mind exploring the ideas that Christ told his followers he would make them fishers of men, and then see if anything comes of it with Oannes as the fishman giver of wisdom. Am I stretching here?! Kerry A. "Very glad I was invited to be a mutant" Shirts Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:20:15 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , References: 1 > Kerry: > Er, you lost me on this. Oannes, what did he do? And what have you read > about this interesting......uh, shall I say creature/man?! I first read > about Oannes in the book "The Sirius Mystery," by R.K.G. Temple, and was > utterly astounded no end. > via JSW: > "Berosus, who collected the ancient Chaldean monuments, and published > treatises of their astronomy and philosophy, gave an account, in his > history, of a man among the Chaldeans in the tenth generation after the > Flood, 'who was righteous, and great, and skilful in the celestial science;' > which character agrees with that of Abraham, who is said by Josephus to have > taught the Egyptians astronomy and arithmetic, of which sciences they were > utterly ignorant before his time." I believe that Berosus is actually refering to Oannes, an Abraham-like Persian deity. Ken knows this stuff too. I haven't heard much from him recently. There's a link at MkzdK about it. You have to read down a ways. http://www.envirolink.org/mkzdk/jumper2.html BTW, I love MkzdK. If you like, you can go to the top level, click on Lounge, and find Jump Start? in the Z-Files Archive menu. This article is the cream of the crop, IMHO. http://www.envirolink.org/mkzdk > What a read about the credits I guess what sorta > miffed me was when he put Asimov's O.K. on the back of the book, but he > hadn't given it. Oh well.......I suppose ya gotta take anything you can get > right or wrong......GRIN! Anyway, on Oannes, why do you suppose he/she (?) > was a fishman? What implications in mythology would that have? The idea > that he came from the ocean to give wisdom to a fallen race, uh, well heck > man, that rings strident bells does it not? I wouldn't mind exploring the > ideas that Christ told his followers he would make them fishers of men, and > then see if anything comes of it with Oannes as the fishman giver of > wisdom. Am I stretching here?! Not stretch, I think that this is deep collective unconsious stuff. I am reminded of the Rush lyrics juxtaposing the sea with space. There is also a prime directive episode from Star Trek where they tell the natives that they are seafarers. (proclus thinks of Idries Shah's Islanders). Put this together with BOA, and it all falls into place, at least for me. As I have been saying, What is Christ? He is a omniscient, immortal human being, who travels between worlds, and is concerned with uplifting his fellow human beings. That's a good hair day. We should take his example more seriously, right where we are sitting now. Nevertheless, I still don't have any good answers to those questions, yet. Why are beings of light on this planet? What can we do here? Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:15:52 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , Kerry Shirts , Proclus: What is Christ? He is a omniscient, immortal human being, who travels between worlds, and is concerned with uplifting his fellow human beings. That's a good hair day. We should take his example more seriously, right where we are sitting now. Nevertheless, I still don't have any good answers to those questions, yet. Why are beings of light on this planet? What can we do here? Kerry: Glow! GRIN! (I'll get back tonight with you. I'm working on my book I'm writing with Patrick Spielman on my scrollsaw art. It'll be a gas. My picture gallery of wood art will blow the world's collective mind to kingdom come.... When they come out, you can have a complimentary copy via the world fahhhhrmous Kerry A. Shirts (howling laughter at my asumed importance)....... Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:41:00 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , References: 1 Kerry Shirts wrote: > > Proclus: > What is Christ? He is a > omniscient, immortal human being, who travels between worlds, and is > concerned with uplifting his fellow human beings. That's a good hair > day. We should take his example more seriously, right where we are > sitting now. > > Nevertheless, I still don't have any good answers to those questions, > yet. Why are beings of light on this planet? What can we do here? > > Kerry: > Glow! GRIN! (I'll get back tonight with you. I'm working on my book I'm > writing with Patrick Spielman on my scrollsaw art. It'll be a gas. My > picture gallery of wood art will blow the world's collective mind to > kingdom come.... When they come out, you can have a complimentary copy via > the world fahhhhrmous Kerry A. Shirts (howling laughter at my asumed > importance)....... (proclus smiles ironically.) Thanx man. I'll get my mind ready for the blowout! Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: good book Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:53:18 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus@aol.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, Beth Quick , rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" ___JSW___ As I mentioned to Art, this is important for Latter-day Saints as well. Oliver Cowdery discusses the Pillars of Enoch in connection with the Book of Abraham, and states that the story may be found in Josephus. While Josephus' account does mention the pillars, it does NOT mention Enoch at all in connection with them. However, Freemasons CLAIMED that the story inJosephus was the source of their "Pillars of Enoch" tradition, and Cowdery clearly follows this Masonic tradition in his remarks. This suggests that the "pedigree" of the LDS Enoch tradition may include Freemasonry. ___Kerry___ And actually, Jeff Lindsay has an interesting article on just this idea on his website. If you guys need the URL let me know...... ----- Yes, I have seen Jeff's comments at http://minerva.athenet.net/~jlindsay/LDSFAQ/FQ_masons.shtml. He comments that: "The superficial links between Masonry or any other institution are easily explained by common ancient ancestry, with Masonry having a couple of corrupted elements derived from ancient practices and symbols. In no way can Masonry offer the numerous ancient, revealed elements found in the restored LDS Temple." He is of course very mistaken. The connections between LDS Temple ritual and Freemasonry are deep and profound, and extend far beyond a few "superficial links." As I have said repeatedly, ancient parallels --as interesting as they may be-- are not an argument against Mormon borrowing. Lindsay comments that: "For those interested in understanding the basics of Masonry, the classic work on the topic is the nineteenth century work, Duncan's Ritual and Monitor of Freemasonry (Malcolm C. Duncan, McKay Publishing, New York, 1865), which covers the York rite of Masonry to which Joseph Smith was exposed." Actually, Joseph Smith was "exposed" directly to "Blue Lodge" Masonry -- i.e., the first three degrees-- by his own experience. What other degrees (York Rite or Scottish Rite) he may have been exposed to is a matter of speculation. However, it seems much more likely that he would have been familiar with Morgan's exposure, or David Bernard's Light on Masonry than with Duncan's. Many Masons of the Prophet's day were also familiar with Jeremy Cross' "True Masonic Chart or Heiroglyphic Monitor," published in 1819, and with Webb's popular "Freemason's Monitor or Illustrations of Masonry." These works are important starting-places for those who would study the connection between Mormonism and Masonry, and contain much relevant material. Linday further states that: "In examining this text and its many illustrations, I found a number of items that can be found in the temple. But I also noticed that these parallel represent a very small fraction of Masonry. It is significant how many concepts and symbols of importance to Masonry are not part of the LDS Endowment. " In other words, he wishes to deny Mormon/Masonic connections, because of what is NOT borrowed. While this was an interesting polemical technique used by the FARMS boys re: Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews, I hardly think its use here argues in the least for that Mormonism has not borrowed from Freemasonry. Most scholars agree that there was indeed borrowing. The issue is a matter of scope, not of whether or not such borrowing actually ocurred. In light of this fact, Lindsay's argument that all similarities result from a common ancestor is actually a step backwards -- it is the same argument urged by McGavin and Ivins nearly sixty years ago; his claim that "the majority of Temple material is not found in Masonry and visa versa" is simply incorrect. He notes that "the use of special foot positions, of ropes, blindfolds (covers for the head), spelling out of names, the 24-inch gauge, the significance of directions, jewels, mosaic pavement, etc., etc. - all of [this] is absent from the Temple." This is misleading. Those Endowed Latter-day Saints who have recieved the Five Points of Fellowship will dispute that "foot positions" have "nothing to do with the Temple." "Blindfolds" are not used in the Temple, but there are lighting effects which serve similar purposes. It is also not strictly true that the "spelling out of names" is not a part of the Endowment. On the contrary, the entire ceremony at the Veil is a Masonic "spelling out of names." Directions are also important in the Temple; it is the reason why the phrase "Holiness to the Lord" is found on the East side of every Temple. And, clearly, the Salt Lake Temple has been purposely oriented in an East-West direction, with the three spires of the Melchizedek Priesthood in the East, and the three spires of the Aaronic Priesthood in the West. Certainly not every aspect of Masonic ritual can be found in the Temple. However, there is little doubt that the latter is an adaptation of the former. Even the quotes Lindsay uses sometimes make factual errors. In his attempt to demonstrate that Joseph Smith was simply a "novice" Mason, Jeff notes the following, from B.H. Roberts: "On the 6th of August, 1842, with quite a number of his brethren, he [Joseph Smith] crossed the Mississippi river to the town of Montrose, to be present at the installation of the Masonic Lodge of the Rising Sun. A block schoolhouse had been prepared with shade in front, under which was a barrel of ice water, Judge James Adams was the highest Masonic authority in the state of Illinois, and had been sent there to organize this lodge." I believe that Roberts is mistaken. By what construing could one say that James Adams was the "highest Masonic authority in the state of Illinois?" Was he the Grand Master of Masons of the state? Lindsay also claims that "there is no evidence that anyone revealed secrets of Masonry to Joseph Smith prior to his initiation in 1842," but he is mistaken. The clear evidence that Joseph was intimately familiar with the workings of Freemasonry --at least as it was popularly portrayed in the press-- was the Danite organization with its signs, tokens, and oaths. As I have elswhere noted, the Danites were clearly based upon the common anti-Masonic "avenging Mason" charicature of the Fraternity. In fact, Lindsay jumps from one mistatement to the next, with nary a pause between. Now, as for the Pillars of Enoch in Masonic tradition. In Lindsay states: "I have learned that a form of Masonry (Royal Arch Masonry) has a tale about the pillars of Enoch, and thus I expect someone will say that Oliver got the idea from that source. However, my understanding is that the Masonic pillars of Enoch do not deal with principles of astronomy but have inscripti ons on "the pri nciples of the liberal arts" and Masonic brotherhood [Webb]. Further, neither Joseph nor Oliver had any connection to masonry prior to 1835, when Oliver's letter was published. Masonry has some ancient roots from the Middle East, so vague common relationships among concepts is not necessarily surprising. I continue to be intrigued by Oliver's mention of the pillar (not pillars) of Enoch in an astronomical and Egyptian context. I'd like to hear other ideas on this minor issue. " (http://minerva.athenet.net/~jlindsay/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml#enoch) Again, he entirely misses the boat on this one, demonstrating his inability to see beyond his own apology when it comes to things Mormon and Masonic. It should not have escaped the notice of the careful student that the "liberal arts" mentioned but not enumerated by Lindsay, necessarily and historically include Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, and ASTRONOMY. Masonic scholar George Oliver noted the Masonic tradition that "in the science of astronomy Enoch made many improvements" (Antiquities 56), that the pillars of Enoch were constructed so that one would "withstand fire and the [other] water," and that "on these he engraved [among other things -- jsw] the elements of the liberal SCIENCES, including Masonry [and necessarily ASTRONOMY -- jsw]" (ibid 59). Masonic tradition has held that "he inscribed" these pillars "with heiroglyphics" (Mackey 1:245); and, Freemasons also believed that "the priests in Egypt secreted the mysteries of their religion from the vulgar, by symbols and hieroglyphics comprehensible alone to those of their own order" (Hutchinson 8). Furthermore, it would be easy for a Freemason to confound this story of Enoch's PILLARS with the two PILLARS in the Lodge: one surmounted by a globe, and ONE by the CELESTIAL SPHERE. However, even this is not the whole story. The very fact that Oliver Cowdery mentions JOSEPHUS as the source of this story when in fact Josephus does NOT speak directly of Enoch's Pillars, is most interesting, as MASONS have long connected THEIR "Pillars of Enoch" account with Josephus as well. Again, and contrary to Lindsay, this suggests that Oliver might have been relying upon another "Oliver" for his information...and that other Oliver was a noted Masonic scholar. Cheers, Joe Swick Heretic Subject: Re: Gaia Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:00:14 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: GaiaNM , "Michael J. Pierce" , Kerry Shirts , Beth , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, rpc man , proclus , Beth any , Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Theurgus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ___Kerry___ GAIA?!? Is she here???? Now that would be cool. I like that chick, er, I mean gal. If she's not here can we get her here? ___Proclus___ She was here, but had to leave the list. She lost her email account or some such thing. She has a formidable presence in the archives though. It's a pleasure to have known her. ----- I thought that she had a new address. I have included it here. Recently, she indicated her desire to see me discuss Mormonism and Masonry with Jeff Lindsey, so she would be interested in the last couple of postings I have written. Gaia, if you're reading this, respond, and I will send along my earlier postings. JSW Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 06:15:44 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Michael Love CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "Michael J. Pierce" , Kerry Shirts , Beth , Theurgus , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Message text written by Michael Love >I am also reminded of elsewhere; the stars are called the archons, the ruling ones of heaven, the heavenly host, the holy council. According to the book of abraham, we were there ;-}.< Remember that the Gnostics thought that the Archons were the bad guys. Robert. Subject: Robert R Black Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 06:15:47 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Dave Combe , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "Michael J. Pierce" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kerry Shirts , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III , Beth, Yes, I am here. Robert. Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:02:00 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Michael Love , 'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com> CC: "Michael J. Pierce" , Kerry Shirts , Beth , Theurgus , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire ---------- From: Robert R Black[SMTP:74277.3365@compuserve.com] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 4:15 AM To: Michael Love Cc: Robert R Black; Michael J. Pierce; Kerry Shirts; Beth; Theurgus; Dave; Neoptolmus@aol.com; onandagus@webtv.net; rpc man; Beth any; Randall Shortridge; ArtdeHoyos; Joe Steve Swick III; R. Trent Reynolds; Kathleen McGuire; Andy Mcguire Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Message text written by Michael Love >I am also reminded of elsewhere; the stars are called the archons, the ruling ones of heaven, the heavenly host, the holy council. According to the book of abraham, we were there ;-}.< Remember that the Gnostics thought that the Archons were the bad guys. Robert. Kerry: Hi Robert.......oooooooo, the archons the bad guys eh? I'll look into this some more as well. I never did get back with our beloved Proclus or Swick last night.....well, I sorta puttered out at 10 p.m. Alas! I am, after all, mere human (at this point). Yeah, yeah, I know Proclus, I know.....technically I am incorrect, but dadgum it my eyeballs kept wanting to look at the inside of my eyelids last night, and it simply overwhelmed me........ Subject: mutant bundle Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 00:21:25 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: RE: The Happy Mutant Handbook/Mischievous Fun for Higher Primates Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:31:04 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , ---------- From: Michael Love[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 9:29 PM To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: The Happy Mutant Handbook/Mischievous Fun for Higher Primates The Happy Mutant Handbook/Mischievous Fun for Higher Primates by Mark Frauenfelder (Editor), Carla Sinclair (Editor), Will Kreth, Gareth Branwyn Heyers folks. I was thinking of picking up this title for fun, as it seems somewhat relevant. Has anyone actually looked at this thing? Maybe it's too much old hat for me. Kerry: Laugh.......This would be an obnoxiously fun title.......wish I had thought of it....... Regards, proclus Kerry Subject: RE: tarot decks Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:54:02 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , ---------- From: Michael Love[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 8:40 PM To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce Subject: tarot decks Here is an unusual request for you all. My wife and I are replacing our beautiful and ancient Dragonmaster deck. We completely wore out two of these things while playing the game for over 15 years. Now, we find out that it is unavailable, and gone for good. Sooo... we are going to replace it with a tarot deck. (snip to save space) We need a most beautiful deck that is good for _gaming_. Kerry: Well, for what its worth, I am prejudiced for the Aleister Crowley card deck, because its only the second one I have ever owned (I acquired it within the last month), and I am quite frankly, fascinated with the art in it! Check out the ace of ands. What is that? A firebrand or something? You know what first struck me about it? It reminds me of the caduceus! No, really, I mean, just let your mind relax and what is the first thing that comes up? Yet look at all the lightning! But not only that, notice its color! GREEN!??? It ought to be yellow like the firebrand shouldn't it? No, I say this type of stuff is just enrapturing to me.....symbolism is SO fascinating...... You can't possibly look at the Lovers card without be dumbstruck with amazement at the amount of info. this thing spews out. The universe card is also a wonder to look at and contemplate. I'm tellin ya, I'm gonna write a commentary on this thing yet. Look at the card called Strife. Man that's Egyptian if there ever was any symbolism.....Shoot, for all that notice the terrific similarities with Victory and strife cards! Why the six staffs as opposed to the four in the strife card? Good heavenlies! Now compare the Valour card! We seem to be in the same universe of discourse here, symbolisms the same and all that jazz, at least in an X, which itself is an interesting symbol. Notice the same type of arrangement in the strength card, yet it has 8 staffs. Note also the 8 feathers on the tails of the staffs (arrows?). Well good heck man, the number 8 is a huge symbolic one. Oh heck, for all that ANY of the numbers are I suppose. Is that Raphael I read in the Hebrew word in the card "Wealth"? Well, anyway........I'm rambling...... Kerry Subject: Re: Gaia Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:51:23 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Joe Steve Swick III CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , Dave , Beth , Kerry Shirts , Message text written by "Joe Steve Swick III" > Recently, she indicated her desire to see me discuss Mormonism and Masonry with Jeff Lindsey, so she would be interested in the last couple of postings I have written.< Share it with us, will you? Robert. Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 04:52:28 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Michael Love , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , Theurgus , Beth , "Michael J. Pierce" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , Message text written by Kerry Shirts >Hi Robert.......oooooooo, the archons the bad guys eh? I'll look into this some more as well. < Yes, the job of the Archons is to trap spirits into a body of flesh and bone. This is supposed to be bad. Jehovah was supposed to be one of the chief bad guys as he was trying to prevent Adam and Eve from finding out the truth and becomeing a god. Jesus was the chief good guy as he showed how to free the spirit. He also taught about love, which was also good. The father of Jesus was supposed to be the TRUE God. The Eternal Father. The god that the Archons did not know about. Iam just finishing up reading four books by Elaine Pagels on Gnosticism. Good stuff. GOOD stuff. Robert. Subject: The Happy Mutant Handbook/Mischievous Fun for Higher Primates Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 04:52:35 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Michael Love CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "Michael J. Pierce" , Kerry Shirts , Beth , Theurgus , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Message text written by Michael Love >The Happy Mutant Handbook/Mischievous Fun for Higher Primates by Mark Frauenfelder (Editor), Carla Sinclair (Editor), Will Kreth, Gareth Branwyn Heyers folks. I was thinking of picking up this title for fun, as it seems somewhat relevant. Has anyone actually looked at this thing? Maybe it's too much old hat for me.< Go and get it and return and report. Robert. Subject: RE: tarot decks Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 04:52:38 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , 'Michael Love' , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Message text written by Kerry Shirts >I am prejudiced for the Aleister Crowley card deck, because its only the second one I have ever owned (I acquired it within the last month), and I am quite frankly, fascinated with the art in it!< I personally like the Rider-Waite, but itis not suitable for playing. The Golden Dawn deck is good especially because it uses plastic cards. The art is not bad either. Robert. Subject: RE: tarot decks Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 04:52:41 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , 'Michael Love' , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Message text written by Kerry Shirts >I'm tellin ya, I'm gonna write a commentary on this thing yet.< Please do. Send it along to all of us also. Gaia and Joe Swick also promised to send one but they never did. Hint hint. Robert. (Who has already sent his). Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 02:11:29 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Michael Love , Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , Theurgus , Beth , "Michael J. Pierce" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ___Robert___ I am just finishing up reading four books by Elaine Pagels on Gnosticism. Good stuff. GOOD stuff. ----- I'm currently reading Birger A. Pearson's book, "Gnosticism, Judaism, and Egyptian Christianity." Also, VERY interesting. I'm wondering if anyone else here has seen this? Cheers, JSW Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:52:27 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , References: 1 Robert R Black wrote: > > Message text written by Kerry Shirts > >Hi Robert.......oooooooo, the archons the bad guys eh? I'll look into this Apparently, I had a message that got lost. What I am saying is that I consider the gnostic Archons as the usurper tyrants of this world; Lucifer, Cain, Nimrod, Gates ;-}. Isn't Satan called the God of this world? God is called the Father of Lights, and if you take pleroma as holy council, then it all fits pretty well. But clearly there are differences too. > some more as well. < > > Yes, the job of the Archons is to trap spirits into a body of flesh and > bone. This is supposed to be bad. Jehovah was supposed to be one of the > chief bad guys as he was trying to prevent Adam and Eve from finding out > the truth and becomeing a god. Jesus was the chief good guy as he showed > how to free the spirit. He also taught about love, which was also good. The > father of Jesus was supposed to be the TRUE God. The Eternal Father. The > god that the Archons did not know about. > > Iam just finishing up reading four books by Elaine Pagels on Gnosticism. > Good stuff. GOOD stuff. I read Pagels and the Nag Hammadi library on my mission. That was great fun. Since then, I have also read much of the gnostic antagonists, especially Tertullian. What a great guy! He's like an anti-mormon genius with soul. Clearly, the Mormon tradition is that we will see god in the flesh. I've always wondered what to make of this gnostic spiritualism. Maybe we ARE servants of the evil archons ;-}. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: Angelic Mediators] Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:04:21 -0500 From: Michael Love To: proclus Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:52:51 -0500 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> CC: Kerry Shirts , Michael Love , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , Theurgus , Beth , "Michael J. Pierce" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" References: 1 Robert. Interesting summary on the Archons. Can you suggest something that I could read on this? Randall Robert R Black wrote: > > Message text written by Kerry Shirts > >Hi Robert.......oooooooo, the archons the bad guys eh? I'll look into this > > some more as well. < > > Yes, the job of the Archons is to trap spirits into a body of flesh and > bone. This is supposed to be bad. Jehovah was supposed to be one of the > chief bad guys as he was trying to prevent Adam and Eve from finding out > the truth and becomeing a god. Jesus was the chief good guy as he showed > how to free the spirit. He also taught about love, which was also good. The > father of Jesus was supposed to be the TRUE God. The Eternal Father. The > god that the Archons did not know about. > > Iam just finishing up reading four books by Elaine Pagels on Gnosticism. > Good stuff. GOOD stuff. > > Robert. Subject: [Fwd: Angelic Mediators] Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:01:11 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: the word of the day Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:41:40 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , I love this word. What can we do with this word? Main Entry: apĚpaĚratĚchik Pronunciation: "ń-p&-'rń(t)-chik Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -chiks also apĚpaĚratĚchiĚki /-chi-kE/ Etymology: Russian, from apparat Date: 1941 1 : a member of a Communist apparat 2 : an official blindly devoted to superiors or to the organization -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: Angelic Mediators Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 00:28:46 -0700 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Beth any , Beth Organization: State University of New York To: "Michael J. Pierce" CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , Kerry Shirts , 'proclus' References: 1 I tend to feel the same as Michael. It is the only way that makes sense in the context of the scriptures, etc. That is how Christ says he is in the midst of us and we know it not. It makes sense in the context of the light within. Yes, mormons are materialistic. They see God as an exalted man (advanced primate). On the other hand, secretarians see God as an infinite (as well as invisible) intelligence without body parts, etc. It makes sense that both are half-truths. That is, both are true, but give an erroneous picture if viewed separately. In the first chapter of John, it talks about "the Word", which most take to mean Jesus (rather than the Christ). It says that all things that were made, were made by this "Word". One can ask if Jesus has a father (spiritually as well as physically), then how did Jesus create his father? It only makes sense if "the Christ" is "the Father" as well as the infinite intelligence that is neither male nor female, nor without beginning of days or end of years. That is, the phrase "Jesus is the Christ" is meant as two separate things becoming one. Jesus is the man(ifestation) of the Christ. If he had not lived such a life, then he (Jesus) would not have been. Randall Michael J. Pierce wrote: > > I was just thinking about this last night. The teaching of the Father > and Jesus having a body as we do is strongly inphasized in the LDS > church. I have read a lot of Max Skousens stuff. From what I have > picked up I notice that my worship has been more to the infinite mind of > God or the Omnipresent spirit which is the Father. Christ said he was > the Father and yet prayed to the Father. According to Max he said that > the secret that christ wouldn't the apostles at the last supper is that > they were the Father. So last night as I was thinking I was wondering > if I should be viewing my God as a man or view it more as a mind that I > try to obtain by getting the same conciousness. To pray to a God out > there somewhere I don't think is correct but if he is a God of flesh > then how do we pray to him in our heart. This is a tradition that I am > not sure how to view. What conclusions have you on this list come to. > > Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 02:08:18 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Joe Steve Swick III CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Kerry Shirts , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , "[unknown]" , rpc man , Beth any , Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Theurgus , Dave , "[unknown]" , Message text written by "Joe Steve Swick III" >I'm currently reading Birger A. Pearson's book, "Gnosticism, Judaism, and Egyptian Christianity." Also, VERY interesting. I'm wondering if anyone else here has seen this?< Not I. But I will look into it. Robert. Subject: Re: Angelic Mediators Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 02:08:23 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Theurgus , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Michael Love , Message text written by INTERNET:rds@acsu.buffalo.edu >Robert. Interesting summary on the Archons. Can you suggest something that I could read on this? < Elaine Pagels ? Especially : 1. The Origin of Satan 2. Adam, Eve and the Serpent. Robert. Subject: RE: the word of the day Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:33:24 -0500 From: "McGuire, Andy" To: 'Michael Love' , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , apĚpaĚratĚchik There are rare and joyous occasions when, instead of driving home from work, I head into town to enjoy the company of very delightful man. I usually end up spending the night.... Whenever I do this, my course takes me past the Church Office Building in downtown Gomorrah. Thank you, Mike, for giving me a word to apply to those things I have to scrape off my bumper after arriving at Rol's place. But have you noticed how close the word comes to 'apparatus'? Nothing more than a tool, a device, a mechanism. Enslaved to the workings of the machine and, in turn, to the directions of the machine's operator. Love it. -Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Love [SMTP:proclus@mac.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 6:42 PM > To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick > III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; > onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus; > Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce > Subject: the word of the day > > I love this word. What can we do with this word? > > > > Main Entry: apĚpaĚratĚchik > Pronunciation: "ń-p&-'rń(t)-chik > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural -chiks also apĚpaĚratĚchiĚki /-chi-kE/ > Etymology: Russian, from apparat > Date: 1941 > 1 : a member of a Communist apparat > 2 : an official blindly devoted to superiors or to the organization > > > Subject: a book Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:33:19 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , I thought that some of you might get a kick out of this. Does anyone have a clue about this? Hugh Cochrane, Gateway to Oblivion, The Great Lakes' Bermuda Triangle Allen 1980 183pp Pls Classic "window area" phenomina. Aside from shipping losses, UFO's, Joseph Smith's reception of Books of Mormon etc Readable F in VG DW Order No. 4228 ú 8.50 I noticed that this site is hosted by demon.co.uk... pretty cool. If you are interested in this brand of wackiness, here is the address. http://www.cadu.demon.co.uk/ Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: tarot Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:42:25 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , Here is another bit of whimsy that my agent gleaned from the net for me tonite. > Jonathan Langford > > P.S. *Please* do not let this turn into a thread on the occult (not the > point at all), but this reminds me that there was a fad among some LDS > science fiction and fantasy authors a few years back for using tarot cards > to generate characters and plot lines for their stories. Those who did > this said that it provided a nice combination of specificity and > flexibility that could be used, basically, as a structure to stimulate > brainstorming. > > jlangfor@pressenter.com How's that for tarot meditation! proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: tarot Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:47:00 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , Wow, my agent is hot tonite! Here is another little something for you. > Reply to: Bruce's Bible > Posted by Boaz on October 09, 1998 at 11:04:48: > > : What I would like to know is, why no masks and face cards? What is the reasoning behind these > bizzare rules? > > I remember back in the mid-seventies there was a solemn assembly called in the Salt Lake Temple > assembly room. My dad was in the High Priest Quorum Presidency at the time and received an invitation. > I don't remember too much of what he told us about it but part of the instruction handed down was a > stricture against face cards. It seems the reasoning against it was the face cards were derived from the > Tarot and therefore inspired by Satan. And his power could be invited unintentionally through the use of > normal playing cards. > > The reason it stuck in my mind was because my Dad was a cribbage fiend while I was growing up and we > always had playing cards around the house. After this meeting my dad went around and threw out all his > cards and tried to play cribbage with Rook cards. (Rook decks being the inspired replacement for face > cards.) My dad was quite adament against face cards for many years and if my brother or I tried to bring > any in the house we were chewed out about bringing Satan in with them. I guess the force of the warning > wore off because about five years ago my brother got my dad playing cribbage again and used to bring > face cards with him to play against dad with. Although to this day I don't believe my mother has allowed > my dad to buy any and bring into the house himself. > > Does anyone else remember this solemn assembly (probably around '75-'76)? It was a big deal at the > time because it had been years since a meeting was held in the Assembly room with leaders from the > "lower echelon". I remember my dad having a handout or minutes from it with the "holy law" from the > GA's. I only for certain remember the counsel against playing cards, but also vaguely seem to remember > also counsel against caffeine beverages (my dad gave up coke for many years after this and my mom still > won't drink it). I wonder if my dad still has that old handout in his papers at home. I may have to see if I > can find it sometime when I'm home. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:59:05 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , References: 1 , 2 > Michael J. Pierce wrote: > > > > I was just thinking about this last night. The teaching of the Father > > and Jesus having a body as we do is strongly inphasized in the LDS > > church. I have read a lot of Max Skousens stuff. From what I have > > picked up I notice that my worship has been more to the infinite mind of > > God or the Omnipresent spirit which is the Father. Christ said he was > > the Father and yet prayed to the Father. According to Max he said that > > the secret that christ wouldn't the apostles at the last supper is that > > they were the Father. So last night as I was thinking I was wondering > > if I should be viewing my God as a man or view it more as a mind that I > > try to obtain by getting the same conciousness. To pray to a God out > > there somewhere I don't think is correct but if he is a God of flesh > > then how do we pray to him in our heart. This is a tradition that I am > > not sure how to view. What conclusions have you on this list come to. > > Thank you Michael for this very good question. Unfortunately this group has been divided on this question for quite some time. We haven't talked about it recently. Maybe we should. I will try and give you a decent reply tomorrow night. I hope that you are enjoying your new discussion group ;-}. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 02:12:31 -0500 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "Michael J. Pierce" , 'proclus' , Kerry Shirts , Beth , Dave , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , rpc man , Beth any , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , Theurgus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Message text written by INTERNET:rds@acsu.buffalo.edu >In the first chapter of John, it talks about "the Word", which most take to mean Jesus (rather than the Christ). It says that all things that were made, were made by this "Word". One can ask if Jesus has a father (spiritually as well as physically), then how did Jesus create his father?< I have believed this and preached it for 25 years. This is the first time I have seen someone else who also believes it. Section 93 of the D&C should go in here also. Thanks, Robert. Subject: RE: Extropianism & Theologism Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 10:43:03 -0700 From: "Michael J. Pierce" To: 'proclus' I noticed that you have some shroom links. Is this for the authors notes or has anybody on this list used plants to elevate conciousness? I have done some studying on it and am just curious to hear some feedback. This is a personal email for obvious reasons. Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 22:45:33 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , > Proclus. Naw. Nearly all mormons are atheists. That is why most > secretarians go after their hide. But, most mormons wouldn't agree. > > Randall I think this is something that we agree on =}. That point is near the heart of my argument, but are kidding or being ironic here? Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 23:28:06 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , Michael J. Pierce wrote: > > I was just thinking about this last night. The teaching of the Father > and Jesus having a body as we do is strongly inphasized in the LDS > church. Of course, this is because of the King Follet Discourse, and later elaborations by BY. Essentially, we are taught that God is a man, that he has a wife, that he lives on a planet that was once earthlike, and so on. It is supported by several D&C references and by the BOA. I have embraced these teachings with unsurpassed zeal. I am not interested in harmonizing the scriptures. I consider that impossible, tainted as they are by the fallen state of this world. JS and BY trump the scriptures anyday of the week. I consider this concept of the godhead to be the most elevating teaching ever formulated. Furthermore, I am disappointed by the legacy of theism in Mormonism. It is the foolish tradition of the fathers. I am also shocked by the inroads of theism into Mormonism. I despise C. S. Lewis. He has done incalculable damage to the Church with his counterfeit godhood. > I have read a lot of Max Skousens stuff. What is Skousen saying about the deity? > From what I have > picked up I notice that my worship has been more to the infinite mind of > God or the Omnipresent spirit which is the Father. Christ said he was > the Father and yet prayed to the Father. According to Max he said that > the secret that christ wouldn't the apostles at the last supper is that > they were the Father. I think that this secret teaching is more properly stated that they are eloheim (plural); that is god-like beings of light. They share god's nature, not his being. > So last night as I was thinking I was wondering > if I should be viewing my God as a man or view it more as a mind that I > try to obtain by getting the same conciousness. To pray to a God out > there somewhere I don't think is correct but if he is a God of flesh > then how do we pray to him in our heart. This is a tradition that I am > not sure how to view. For me, I feel closer to god, knowing that he shares my nature, that he understands what I am going through, that I can be like him, if I choose. He has the means to communicate with us and to transform us on every level. This is how the species is advanced. What is the purpose of the mystical union, and how can it possibly compare to being like god, acting as god? We participate in godhood, not in god. Let's get busy. > What conclusions have you on this list come to. Again, I will say that we have had some difficulty with this issue in the past. If I have caused some offense to the mystics here, now or in the past, please accept my apology. Despite this disagreement, we have had some stunningly brilliant discussions. I hope that we continue to do so, and I hope that you are enjoying your new discussion group. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 23:45:23 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth , References: 1 , 2 Randall Shortridge wrote: > > I tend to feel the same as Michael. It is the only way that makes sense > in the context of the scriptures, etc. That is how Christ says he is in > the midst of us and we know it not. It makes sense in the context of > the light within. In the D&C we learn that god's planet is a great urim and thummim. He can see the ends of space and time. He can see this very moment. Of course, he is in our midst with a tool like that. Furthermore, this teaching of Jesus can be taken to refer allegorically to the spirit of christ, by which men can in some way reciprocate this godly presence. Maybe it is more like a virtual presence. > Yes, mormons are materialistic. They see God as an exalted man > (advanced primate). On the other hand, secretarians see God as an > infinite (as well as invisible) intelligence without body parts, etc. > It makes sense that both are half-truths. That is, both are true, but > give an erroneous picture if viewed separately. On the contrary, the mystery is that there is no mystery. God is a man. > In the first chapter of John, it talks about "the Word", which most take > to mean Jesus (rather than the Christ). It says that all things that > were made, were made by this "Word". One can ask if Jesus has a father > (spiritually as well as physically), then how did Jesus create his > father? It only makes sense if "the Christ" is "the Father" as well as > the infinite intelligence that is neither male nor female, nor without > beginning of days or end of years. That is, the phrase "Jesus is the > Christ" is meant as two separate things becoming one. Jesus is the > man(ifestation) of the Christ. If he had not lived such a life, then he > (Jesus) would not have been. To me, this is a little pedantic. When you understand that god is a man, then the rest falls into a new context. There is no such thing as "all". Read Korzibsky, then consider that the knowable universe is limited by the Hubble constant. We can only say all things in this space or that, all things in this world or that. God and Jesus exist co-eternally. Regards, proclus > Randall > > Michael J. Pierce wrote: > > > > I was just thinking about this last night. The teaching of the Father > > and Jesus having a body as we do is strongly inphasized in the LDS > > church. I have read a lot of Max Skousens stuff. From what I have > > picked up I notice that my worship has been more to the infinite mind of > > God or the Omnipresent spirit which is the Father. Christ said he was > > the Father and yet prayed to the Father. According to Max he said that > > the secret that christ wouldn't the apostles at the last supper is that > > they were the Father. So last night as I was thinking I was wondering > > if I should be viewing my God as a man or view it more as a mind that I > > try to obtain by getting the same conciousness. To pray to a God out > > there somewhere I don't think is correct but if he is a God of flesh > > then how do we pray to him in our heart. This is a tradition that I am > > not sure how to view. What conclusions have you on this list come to. > > > > -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Now HERE's a Clue Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:18:44 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: proclus , Michael Love , Julie Love , "Shawn M. Love" , Cyrus Love , Mom , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" <74277.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , George Head , George Head I have no comments to offer regarding this website, but I thought you might wish to read it carefully. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/3164/Introduction.htm

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