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Subject:
RE: Extropianism & Theologism
Date:
Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:25:58 -0700
From:
"Michael J. Pierce"
To:
'proclus'
The teaching the way max skousen teaches it is that we do have a
physical father and that we can be One with him by obtaining his
mind.(Some will even say that we do not share the same father but that
doesn't matter.) To me the goal is to obtain the Mind of God or The
Holy Spirit. This part is very much Mysticism because of its
omnipresence which is my Christ within. This doesn't disclude that we
have a father of flesh and bone. I am at odds because I am curious how
to view the Father that is a personage. (what does personage mean
anyway, does it mean body? I need a dictionary) Here is the Question
and Answers of the Fifth lecture in The lectures on faith dealing with
the Godhead. The complete book is at the bottom if anyone is
interested.
Of what do the foregoing lectures treat?
Of the being, perfections, and attributes of the Deity. (Lecture 5:1.)
What are we to understand by the perfections of Deity?
The perfections which belong to his attributes.
How many personages are there in the Godhead?
Two: the Father and Son. (Lecture 5:1.) How do you prove that there are
two personages in the Godhead? By the Scriptures. Genesis 1:26; also
Lecture 2:6: "And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with
me from the beginning, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;
and it was so." Genesis 3:22: "And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only
Begotten, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and
evil." John 17:5: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own
self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
(Lecture 5:2.)
What is the Father?
He is a personage of glory and of power. (Lecture 5:2.)
How do you prove that the Father is a personage of glory and power?
Isaiah 60:19: "The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for
brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be
unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory." 1 Chronicles
29:11: "Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory."
Psalm 29:3: "The voice of the Lord is upon the waters: the God of glory
thundereth." Psalm 79:9: "Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory
of thy name." Romans 1:23: "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible
God into an image made like to corruptible man." Secondly, of power. 1
Chronicles 29:11: "Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and
the glory." Jeremiah 32:17: "Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the
heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there
is nothing too hard for thee." Deuteronomy 4:37: "And because he loved
thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee
out in his sight with his mighty power." 2 Samuel 22:33: "God is my
strength and power." Job 26, commencing with the 7th verse to the end of
the chapter: "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and
hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his thick
clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them. He holdeth back the face
of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it. He hath compassed the
waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. The pillars
of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. He divideth the sea
with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the
crooked serpent. Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a
portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can
understand?"
What is the Son?
First he is a personage of tabernacle. (Lecture 5:2.)
How do you prove it?
John 14:9-11: "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you,
and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen
the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou
not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I
speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in
me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me." Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made
or fashioned like unto a man, or being in the form and likeness of man.
(Lecture 5:2.) Philippians 2:5-8: "Let this mind be in you, which was
also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not
robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and
took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of
men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became
obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Hebrews 2:14, 16:
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he
also himself likewise took part of the same. . . . For verily he took
not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of
Abraham." Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the
Father. (Lecture 5:2.) Hebrews 1:1-3: "God, who at sundry times and in
divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath
in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed
heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the
brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Again,
Philippians 2:5-6: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ
Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal
with God."
Was it by the Father and the Son that all things were created and made
that were created and made?
It was. Colossians 1:15-17: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that
are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things
were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by
him all things consist." Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the
heaven and the earth." Hebrews 1:2: [God] "hath in these last days
spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by
whom also he made the worlds."
Does he possess the fullness of the Father?
He does. Colossians 1:19; 2:9: "For it pleased the Father that in him
should all fulness dwell." "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the
Godhead bodily." Ephesians 1:23: "Which is his [Christ's] body, the
fulness of him that filleth all in all."
Why was he called the Son?
Because of the flesh. Luke 1:35: "That holy thing which shall be born of
thee, shall be called the Son of God." Matthew 3:16-17: "And Jesus, when
he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water, and, lo, the
heavens were opened unto him, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God
descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from
heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Was he ordained of the Father, from before the foundation of the world,
to be propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his
name?
He was. 1 Peter 1:18-20: "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed
with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation
received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of
Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was
foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in
these last times for you." Revelation 13:8: "And all that dwell upon the
earth shall worship him [the beast], whose names are not written in the
book of life of the Lame slain from the foundation of the world." 1
Corinthians 2:7: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the
hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."
Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?
They do. John 5:30: "I [Christ] can of mine own self do nothing: as I
hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own
will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John 6:38: "For I
[Christ] came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of
him that sent me." John 10:30: "I [Christ] and my Father are one."
What is this mind?
The Holy Spirit. John 15:26: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I
will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me [Christ]." Galatians
4:6: "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son
into your hearts."
Do the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead?~5.3.
They do. (Lecture 5:2.)
Do the believers in Christ Jesus, through the pngt of the Spirit, become
one with the Father and the Son, as the Father and the Son are one?
They do. John 17:20-21: "Neither pray I for these [the apostles] alone,
but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that
they all may be one; as thou, Father, are in me, and I in thee, that
they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast
sent me."
Does the foregoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the
exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation?
It does.
How do you prove it?
By the third paragraph of this lecture.
<>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: proclus [SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 9:28 PM
> To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus; Joe
> Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus;
> rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R.
> Black; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce
> Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism
>
> Michael J. Pierce wrote:
> >
> > I was just thinking about this last night. The teaching of the
> Father
> > and Jesus having a body as we do is strongly inphasized in the LDS
> > church.
>
> Of course, this is because of the King Follet Discourse, and later
> elaborations by BY. Essentially, we are taught that God is a man,
> that
> he has a wife, that he lives on a planet that was once earthlike, and
> so
> on. It is supported by several D&C references and by the BOA.
>
> I have embraced these teachings with unsurpassed zeal. I am not
> interested in harmonizing the scriptures. I consider that impossible,
> tainted as they are by the fallen state of this world. JS and BY
> trump
> the scriptures anyday of the week. I consider this concept of the
> godhead to be the most elevating teaching ever formulated.
>
> Furthermore, I am disappointed by the legacy of theism in Mormonism.
> It
> is the foolish tradition of the fathers. I am also shocked by the
> inroads of theism into Mormonism. I despise C. S. Lewis. He has done
> incalculable damage to the Church with his counterfeit godhood.
>
> > I have read a lot of Max Skousens stuff.
>
> What is Skousen saying about the deity?
>
> > From what I have
> > picked up I notice that my worship has been more to the infinite
> mind of
> > God or the Omnipresent spirit which is the Father. Christ said he
> was
> > the Father and yet prayed to the Father. According to Max he said
> that
> > the secret that christ wouldn't the apostles at the last supper is
> that
> > they were the Father.
>
> I think that this secret teaching is more properly stated that they
> are
> eloheim (plural); that is god-like beings of light. They share god's
> nature, not his being.
>
> > So last night as I was thinking I was wondering
> > if I should be viewing my God as a man or view it more as a mind
> that I
> > try to obtain by getting the same conciousness. To pray to a God
> out
> > there somewhere I don't think is correct but if he is a God of flesh
> > then how do we pray to him in our heart. This is a tradition that I
> am
> > not sure how to view.
>
> For me, I feel closer to god, knowing that he shares my nature, that
> he
> understands what I am going through, that I can be like him, if I
> choose. He has the means to communicate with us and to transform us
> on
> every level. This is how the species is advanced. What is the
> purpose
> of the mystical union, and how can it possibly compare to being like
> god, acting as god? We participate in godhood, not in god. Let's get
> busy.
>
> > What conclusions have you on this list come to.
>
> Again, I will say that we have had some difficulty with this issue in
> the past. If I have caused some offense to the mystics here, now or
> in
> the past, please accept my apology.
>
> Despite this disagreement, we have had some stunningly brilliant
> discussions. I hope that we continue to do so, and I hope that you
> are
> enjoying your new discussion group.
>
> Regards,
> proclus
>
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
> PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
lecfaith.htm
Name:
lecfaith.htm
Type:
Hypertext Markup Language (text/html)
Encoding:
quoted-printable
Subject:
Re: Extropianism & Theologism
Date:
Fri, 05 Mar 1999 12:02:28 -0500
From:
Randall Shortridge
Organization:
State University of New York
To:
proclus
CC:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Beth , Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce"
References:
1
Well, I was being flippant, but really meant what I said, so I guess
perhaps irony. The fundamentalist Christians say that God is a
universal intelligence that man has not seen at any time. This is the
"theism" that you speak of. You are right that Mormons focus on the
material God (advanced primate). The fundamentalist Christians know
this and it pisses them off. That is perhaps why there are so many
antimormons, but not so many anti-baptists or anti-cathoics.
Of course, I am a bit out of step because I think that both are true.
That is, perhaps I see myself as theistic as well as materialistic (or
spiritual as well as physical) ;-)
Have you ever looked at the Urantia book? You can find the entire text
on the web. Generally, I don't really care for the book, but there are
some things that I really like. There are two chapters on the Lucifer
rebellion which seem to describe what I think really happened.
Randall
proclus wrote:
>
> > Proclus. Naw. Nearly all mormons are atheists. That is why most
> > secretarians go after their hide. But, most mormons wouldn't agree.
> >
> > Randall
>
> I think this is something that we agree on =}. That point is near the
> heart of my argument, but are kidding or being ironic here?
>
> Regards,
> proclus
>
> - -
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
> PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
Books & more
Date:
Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:56:38 -0800
From:
house hold
To:
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus
CC:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce"
Hey there,
I wish my computer wasn't so darn slow that I get cut off every thirty
seconds or I'd be chatting away with y'all every day. Hopefully by the
summer I'll have daily T-1 access and we'll see what happens.....
I have come accross two books which may interest some here:
The first one I have not read. It is about the Lost Bride of Christianity,
Mary Magdalene. It is called "The Woman With the Alabaster Jar: Mary
Magdalene and the Holy Grail" by Maragaret Starbird.
The second book is the sequel, which I just finished. It is called "The
Goddess in the Gospels: Reclaiming the Sacred Feminine" by the same author.
One thing that I have been thinking about lately is the more esoteric
meanings
of some of the symbols in the B of M. The Liahona seems to be a rather
feminine symbol, it brings to mind the activity of the right brain,
intuition and more....
What are some symbols in the Mormon mythos are interesting to you?
Proclus, thank you, I am aware of the organization of the church being
mentioned in the D&C, I just need the hour. I'll crack the D&C and see if
it gives it, probably not.
I need to catch up on some mutant reading and get back to you.
Anyone celebrate the Equinox?
Thanks for keeping this going!
Beth
----------
> From: Randall Shortridge
> To: proclus
> Cc: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire
R. Trent Reynolds Theurgus
Joe Steve Swick III ArtdeHoyos
Beth any rpc man
onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave
Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Beth
Kerry Shirts Michael J.
Pierce
> Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism
> Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 9:02 AM
>
> Well, I was being flippant, but really meant what I said, so I guess
> perhaps irony. The fundamentalist Christians say that God is a
> universal intelligence that man has not seen at any time. This is the
> "theism" that you speak of. You are right that Mormons focus on the
> material God (advanced primate). The fundamentalist Christians know
> this and it pisses them off. That is perhaps why there are so many
> antimormons, but not so many anti-baptists or anti-cathoics.
>
> Of course, I am a bit out of step because I think that both are true.
> That is, perhaps I see myself as theistic as well as materialistic (or
> spiritual as well as physical) ;-)
>
> Have you ever looked at the Urantia book? You can find the entire text
> on the web. Generally, I don't really care for the book, but there are
> some things that I really like. There are two chapters on the Lucifer
> rebellion which seem to describe what I think really happened.
>
> Randall
>
> proclus wrote:
> >
> > > Proclus. Naw. Nearly all mormons are atheists. That is why most
> > > secretarians go after their hide. But, most mormons wouldn't agree.
> > >
> > > Randall
> >
> > I think this is something that we agree on =}. That point is near the
> > heart of my argument, but are kidding or being ironic here?
> >
> > Regards,
> > proclus
> >
> > --
> > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > Version: 3.1
> > GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
> > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> > r+++ y++++
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
RE: Books & more
Date:
Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:41:07 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , proclus ,
'house hold'
CC:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce"
Beth.......BETH!!!!!!!!!!! BabE!!!!! GRIN!
The below sounds very interesting......I look forward to hearing and seeing
more.
Kerry
----------
From: house hold[SMTP:timquick@cwnet.com]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 1:56 AM
To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; proclus
Cc: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus; Joe Steve
Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net;
Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce
Subject: Books & more
Hey there,
I wish my computer wasn't so darn slow that I get cut off every thirty
seconds or I'd be chatting away with y'all every day. Hopefully by the
summer I'll have daily T-1 access and we'll see what happens.....
I have come accross two books which may interest some here:
The first one I have not read. It is about the Lost Bride of Christianity,
Mary Magdalene. It is called "The Woman With the Alabaster Jar: Mary
Magdalene and the Holy Grail" by Maragaret Starbird.
The second book is the sequel, which I just finished. It is called "The
Goddess in the Gospels: Reclaiming the Sacred Feminine" by the same author.
One thing that I have been thinking about lately is the more esoteric
meanings
of some of the symbols in the B of M. The Liahona seems to be a rather
feminine symbol, it brings to mind the activity of the right brain,
intuition and more....
What are some symbols in the Mormon mythos are interesting to you?
Proclus, thank you, I am aware of the organization of the church being
mentioned in the D&C, I just need the hour. I'll crack the D&C and see if
it gives it, probably not.
I need to catch up on some mutant reading and get back to you.
Anyone celebrate the Equinox?
Thanks for keeping this going!
Beth
----------
> From: Randall Shortridge
> To: proclus
> Cc: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire
R. Trent Reynolds Theurgus
Joe Steve Swick III ArtdeHoyos
Beth any rpc man
onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave
Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Beth
Kerry Shirts Michael J.
Pierce
> Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism
> Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 9:02 AM
>
> Well, I was being flippant, but really meant what I said, so I guess
> perhaps irony. The fundamentalist Christians say that God is a
> universal intelligence that man has not seen at any time. This is the
> "theism" that you speak of. You are right that Mormons focus on the
> material God (advanced primate). The fundamentalist Christians know
> this and it pisses them off. That is perhaps why there are so many
> antimormons, but not so many anti-baptists or anti-cathoics.
>
> Of course, I am a bit out of step because I think that both are true.
> That is, perhaps I see myself as theistic as well as materialistic (or
> spiritual as well as physical) ;-)
>
> Have you ever looked at the Urantia book? You can find the entire text
> on the web. Generally, I don't really care for the book, but there are
> some things that I really like. There are two chapters on the Lucifer
> rebellion which seem to describe what I think really happened.
>
> Randall
>
> proclus wrote:
> >
> > > Proclus. Naw. Nearly all mormons are atheists. That is why most
> > > secretarians go after their hide. But, most mormons wouldn't agree.
> > >
> > > Randall
> >
> > I think this is something that we agree on =}. That point is near the
> > heart of my argument, but are kidding or being ironic here?
> >
> > Regards,
> > proclus
> >
> > --
> > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > Version: 3.1
> > GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
> > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> > r+++ y++++
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
RE: Books & more
Date:
Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:30:55 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Kerry Shirts , 'proclus'
CC:
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
'house hold' ,
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
"Michael J. Pierce"
----------
From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 7:59 PM
To: Kerry Shirts
Cc: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; 'house hold'; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R.
Trent Reynolds; Theurgus; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; rpc
man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black;
Michael J. Pierce
Subject: Re: Books & more
> What are some symbols in the Mormon mythos are interesting to you?
Symbols? We've got a bunch, but they are all hidden. Can anyone please
find them? ;-}
Kerry:
But if we did, then that would ruin the symbolism of them being a Pearl of
Great Price which is hidden - wry grin..........
Kerry A. "Smart alec" Shirts
Subject:
Re: More Books & more
Date:
Fri, 26 Mar 1999 03:11:32 -0800
From:
house hold
To:
Kerry Shirts , 'proclus'
CC:
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
"Michael J. Pierce"
I've got more books to add, as if all your lists weren't long enough
already!
Another book that I haven't read yet although I have heard the author
speak
is
The Alphabet vs. the Goddess.
It discusses, among other things, brain hemisphere research and how
the
evoloution of reading and writing corresponded to the switch from
matriarchy to patriarchy (I don't advocate the imbalance of one over
the
other) , as well as the rise and fall of literacy rates later in
history
corresponding to high persucution of women (at the times and places of
highest literacy) and all that is feminine, such as images, midwifery,
healing etc. and a lack of the same persecution among peasant peoples
in different areas of the same time period.
Being a left handed person and right brain dominant due to my female
and
left handed status I believe that myth and symbol are the language of
the
Goddess and that their is a reason why in priesthood blessings I was
often
told to "study your Father's word", being that the word is literally
masculine in nature, even though some of those same vlesings mentioned
my
Mother in Heaven.
The author had some interesting things to say about how the use of
computers are
likely to cause left brain dominant people to become more right
brained and
holistic, so all is not doom and gloom. It seems to be an important
addition to the body of literature on the Goddess.
Another book I just read is 11:11 by Solara which seems like a book of
high
level
Mormon theology or maybe just LDS concepts in an expanded form and
modern
tongue. I figure i already knew everything in the book before I read
it but
it's always nice to have confirmation of what the spirit has taught. I
consider the information to be from the same source of "space gods"
who
were behind Joseph Smith, as well as other Melchizedek orders.
The book mentions the Melchizedek priesthood, the archangel Michael,
among
other things. It's sort of handbook for the Last Days and how to reach
higher levels of consciousness. It is not channeled and although most
of
the books I've come across that mention concepts such as those
mentioned
above often make me nauseous
I really like this book and felt that it was inspired and
signifigantly
different from such similar works.
Happy reading.....
Bethaluna
> From: Kerry Shirts
> To: Kerry Shirts 'proclus'
> Cc: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; 'house hold' Andy
Mcguire
Kathleen McGuire R.
Trent
Reynolds Theurgus Joe Steve
Swick
III ArtdeHoyos Beth any
rpc man
onandagus@webtv.net;
Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave Robert R. Black
?.3365@compuserve.com> Michael J. Pierce
> Subject: RE: Books & more
> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 7:30 PM
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 7:59 PM
> To: Kerry Shirts
> Cc: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; 'house hold'; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen
McGuire;
R.
> Trent Reynolds; Theurgus; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any;
rpc
> man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black;
> Michael J. Pierce
> Subject: Re: Books & more
>
> > What are some symbols in the Mormon mythos are interesting to you?
>
> Symbols? We've got a bunch, but they are all hidden. Can anyone
please
> find them? ;-}
>
> Kerry:
> But if we did, then that would ruin the symbolism of them being a
Pearl
of
> Great Price which is hidden - wry grin..........
>
> Kerry A. "Smart alec" Shirts
Subject:
[Fwd: Extropianism & Theologism]
Date:
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:33:53 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy M cguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
rpc man , Theurgus
Subject:
RE: Extropianism & Theologism
Date:
Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:15:08 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Kerry Shirts , 'proclus'
----------
From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 1999 11:28 PM
To: Kerry Shirts
Subject: Re: Extropianism & Theologism
Thanx man! I look forward to reading that article. I'm such a
literalist. It's not fashionable anymore, I guess. Well, we also
have
this begotten son business, and Jesus saying that if you saw him, you
saw the father (and more here), clearly implying that the father has a
body. How can Jesus be doing what the father did, if the father
didn't
have body? On and on. We've been there, no?
Jesus took up a glorified and perfected body. Thomas felt the man's
hands! It's uploading. Sounds like an extropian example to me. Pass
through death into a better body. This is exactly what the extropians
are talking about. They are not much for this comparison though. ;-]
Regards,
proclus
Uh hey, let me give you something I gave the other list I am
on.....hopefully this is in any way relevant as I still ain't gottem
clue
what the living heck Extropianism is....(Giving away the truth of my
ignorance amongst friends - GRIN!)
Today while working on my paper for our FAIR Conference, I read a most
startling and interesting paper by Gerald Bonner, "Augustine's
Conception
of Deification," in the "Journal of Theological Studies" NS, Vol. 37,
pt.2,
Oct. 1986: pp. 369-386 which I believe will be interesting to all here
as
Jim Ware has said no one would believe the early Christians believed
in
deification of man. Here is one more serious nail in Jim Ware's Coffin
against his claim.
I'll merely skip through the article citing the relevant portions.
p. 370 the Eastern Fathers of Christianity definitely taught
deification
according to the distinguished Orthodox Eastern theologian Vladimir
Lossky.
Augustine said Deification can come only from a participation in God
made
possible by divine initiative. (p. 372). We Mormons would say O.K. to
that
so far as I know.
Augustine in the Ep. ad Galatis Exp. 24.5 says concerning the Son of
God,
"He both brought down his majesty to human affairs and raised human
lowliness to the realms of the divine, that He might be a mediator
between
God and men, being made a man by God above men." Bonner notes that
this
philosophical datum and conception is that of participation by man in
God.
(p. 373)
On the same page, in the 23 tractate on the Gospel of John we read
that the
human soul and reasonable mind "is not animated, not made happy and
blessed, not illuminated, except by the very substance of God...it is
made
blessed by participation in God."
Augustine notes in his sermon on Ps. 58 "Doctor autem humilitatis,
particeps nostrae infirmitatis, donans participationem suae
divinitatis, ad
hoc descendens ut viam doceret et via fieret, maxime suam humilitatem
nobis
commendare dignatus est."
Translation:
The teacher of humility and sharer of our infirmity, giving us
participation of His divinity, coming down that He might both teach
and be
the Way, has deigned most highly to commend His humility to us. (p.
374 -
Bonner)
Bonner notes that in the phrase 'the sharer (particeps) of our
infirmity,
giving us participation of His divinity.
Bonner also notes on the same page (374) that G.B.Ladner has written
"for
by taking upon Himself man's sin, and by participating in man's penal
suffering, which did not pertain to sinless manhood, God joined
humanity to
his nature in a degree........"
P. 375 - "...the Risen Christ the pledge of man's deification, of the
'In-Godding,' of man, to borrow a phrase from Dr. Pusey.
P. 376 - Augustine specifically teaches the deification of man "To
make
gods those who were men, He was made man who is God."
Iranaeus said "His immense love was made what we are, that He might
bring
us to perfection, to be what He himself is, and almost literally,
Athanasius: He was made man that we might be4 deified."
"The deification of men is the master-work of Christ and Christianity,
revealed above all in the Psalms and the books of the New Testament.
Augustine in Book IV of De Trinitate stated "and being made a sharer
(particeps) of our mortality, He made us sharers of His Divinity." (et
factus particeps mortalitatis nostrae fecit nos particeps divinitatis
suae)
p. 377 - "He both brought down His majesty to human affairs and raised
human lowliness to the realm of the divine."
Bonner notes that Augustine did not believe that by nature man was
divine,
however Augustine definitely felt that "He makes you a partaker of His
immortality by exaltation."
Augustine argued for the deification of man by grace as proof that the
nature of the Son was also divine: "If men are made gods by the word
of God
(per sermonem Dei), if by participating they are made gods, is not He
in
whom they participate not God?" (Bonner, p. 379).
p. 380 - "Therefore He descended that we might ascend, and remaining
in His
nature was made a partaker of our nature, that we remaining in our
nature
might be made partakers of His nature."
P. 381 - "The essence of Augustine's doctrine of deification... may be
described as man's participation in God through the humanity of
Christ,
after this earthly life is ended and without any alteration of man's
creaturely status."
p. 382 - deification describes the consequence of the saving work of
Christ!
P. 384 - Now he who justifies, Himself deifies, because by justifying
He
makes sons of God!
Any way we look at this, Bonner's article is simply outstanding on
this
idea
Kerry A. Shirts
Subject:
RE: mutant discussions
Date:
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:55:44 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
"mutants@iname.com"
----------
From: Bryan Ferre[SMTP:bferre@westassoc1.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:56 PM
To: mutants@iname.com
Subject: mutant discussions
One of the great tragedy's among modern Mormonisim is it's failing to
promote brilliant and careful examination of the doctrines taught by
the
Prophet Joseph Smith. The wandering spirits that are gathering at your
site
have many interesting things to say. I am intrigued by the fact that
Mormonisim is not "deep" enogh and some are turning to the more
esoteric
faith of the world.
Bryan
Gee,
This is interesting! Thanks for sharing with us Proclus....
Kerry A. Shirts
Subject:
[Fwd: mutant discussions]
Date:
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:02:58 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
rpc man , Theurgus
Subject:
mutant discussions
Date:
Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:56:22 -0400
From:
Bryan Ferre
To:
mutants@iname.com
One of the great tragedy's among modern Mormonisim is it's failing to
promote brilliant and careful examination of the doctrines taught by
the
Prophet Joseph Smith. The wandering spirits that are gathering at your
site
have many interesting things to say. I am intrigued by the fact that
Mormonisim is not "deep" enogh and some are turning to the more
esoteric
faith of the world.
Bryan
Subject:
RE: [Fwd: mutant discussions]
Date:
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:17:15 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
rpc man , Theurgus ,
'proclus'
My dear Proclus:
I just went back to the website and re-read our discussions on the
Book of
Abr. and the facsimiles. MAN!!! Those were the fun ole days weren't
they?!
I found where I had asked you (after discussing dozens of ideas on the
hypocephalus and other facsimiles) if you wanted to do a study on the
Tarot
and the Hypo. You brought in a whole lot more stuff I had never seen,
and I
countered with a whole lot of stuff you had not seen and we went round
and
round blowing our minds, spinning out our brains, yammering, gabbing,
free
falling with connections from the stars to microbiology and absolutely
had
the most perfect male bonding over the Internet in existence - GRIN! I
just
wanted to say once again, thanks for those archives. Ah the glory! Ah
the
discussions! Man we went for it didn't we? Laugh! What a couple of
rambunctious young uns we are!
Kerry A. Shirts
Subject:
Re: mutant discussions
Date:
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:19:44 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
rpc man , Theurgus
References:
1
It's the website, Once in a while, we pull in a gem. Feel free to
reply
to the person, invite him in, or do with this whatever you like. I
consider that anything addressed to mutants@iname.com is really
addressed to all of us.
Regards,
proclus
Kerry Shirts wrote:
>
> ----------
> From: Bryan Ferre[SMTP:bferre@westassoc1.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:56 PM
> To: mutants@iname.com
> Subject: mutant discussions
>
> One of the great tragedy's among modern Mormonisim is it's failing
to
> promote brilliant and careful examination of the doctrines taught by
the
> Prophet Joseph Smith. The wandering spirits that are gathering at
your site
> have many interesting things to say. I am intrigued by the fact that
> Mormonisim is not "deep" enogh and some are turning to the more
esoteric
> faith of the world.
>
> Bryan
>
> Gee,
>
> This is interesting! Thanks for sharing with us Proclus....
>
> Kerry A. Shirts
--
Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: [Fwd: mutant discussions]
Date:
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:50:51 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
rpc man , Theurgus
References:
1
I'm so glad that I saved those archives. I can't think of a single
person who participated with us that was not transformed in some way.
I
cannot over-emphasize that it was a turning point, a momont of crux,
for
me, and for others as well. Most people did not have USENET, or email
discussion groups back then. We got a taste of the future, and it
blew
our minds; just in time.
I've got to thank Andy for getting me onto Prodigy back in the hoary
old
days, before the web. We schemed our schemes together, action at a
distance. It was the first wave of a wild emergence. Now, here we
are,
in the lap of the goddess. Pass the cup.
Regards,
proclus
Kerry Shirts wrote:
>
> My dear Proclus:
>
> I just went back to the website and re-read our discussions on the
Book of
> Abr. and the facsimiles. MAN!!! Those were the fun ole days weren't
they?!
> I found where I had asked you (after discussing dozens of ideas on
the
> hypocephalus and other facsimiles) if you wanted to do a study on
the Tarot
> and the Hypo. You brought in a whole lot more stuff I had never
seen, and I
> countered with a whole lot of stuff you had not seen and we went
round and
> round blowing our minds, spinning out our brains, yammering,
gabbing, free
> falling with connections from the stars to microbiology and
absolutely had
> the most perfect male bonding over the Internet in existence - GRIN!
I just
> wanted to say once again, thanks for those archives. Ah the glory!
Ah the
> discussions! Man we went for it didn't we? Laugh! What a couple of
> rambunctious young uns we are!
>
> Kerry A. Shirts
--
Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
RE: [Fwd: mutant discussions]
Date:
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:18:04 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
'Andy M cg ui re ' ,
'ArtdeHoyos' , 'Beth' ,
'Beth any' , 'Dave' ,
'Joe Steve Swick III' ,
'Kathleen McGuire' ,
'Kerry Shirts' ,
"'Michael J. Pierce'" ,
"'Neoptolmus@aol.com'" ,
"'onandagus@webtv.net'" ,
"'R. Trent Reynolds'" ,
'Randall Shortridge' ,
"'Robert R. Black'" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
'rpc man' , 'Theurgus' ,
'proclus'
----------
From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 7:50 PM
To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth; Beth any; Dave; Joe Steve
Swick III;
Kathleen McGuire; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce; Neoptolmus@aol.com;
onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge;
Robert
R. Black; rpc man; Theurgus
Subject: Re: [Fwd: mutant discussions]
I'm so glad that I saved those archives. I can't think of a single
person who participated with us that was not transformed in some way.
I
cannot over-emphasize that it was a turning point, a momont of crux,
for
me, and for others as well. Most people did not have USENET, or email
discussion groups back then. We got a taste of the future, and it
blew
our minds; just in time.
I've got to thank Andy for getting me onto Prodigy back in the hoary
old
days, before the web. We schemed our schemes together, action at a
distance. It was the first wave of a wild emergence. Now, here we
are,
in the lap of the goddess. Pass the cup.
>er, which one? GRIN! Hathor or Maat? And yes, I also want to thank
Andy
for giving me so much leeway and help in the trying times of trying to
sort
out my own mutations! Laugh. We had a few good visits. By the way
Andy, can
you give me your address now so I can stop in and see you here pretty
soon?
Regards,
proclus
Kerry
Subject:
Re: [Fwd: Extropianism & Theologism]
Date:
Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:48:10 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
rpc man , Theurgus
References:
1
> Uh hey, let me give you something I gave the other list I am
> on.....hopefully this is in any way relevant as I still ain't gottem
clue
> what the living heck Extropianism is....(Giving away the truth of my
> ignorance amongst friends - GRIN!)
Here are a couple of links for those who are interested.
http://www.extropy.org/
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/index.html
More later,
proclus
--
Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Extropianism & Theologism
Date:
Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:53:13 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge