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ject: Nasrudin Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:03:01 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, timquick@cwnet.com Nasrudin decided to have a party. What little money he had was spent on special annoucements, grandiose invitations and an ostentatious location. When the guests arrived, they found no food, no wine, no entertainment. They clamoured around Nasrudin demanding an explanation. "You have to understand . . ." stammered Nasrudin, "that I am new to this 'party giving'. Next time I shall send out out no invitations and hold the party in my barn. Think of this as a dress rehearsal but next time . . . next time will be the Real Thing . . ." My FAIR Conference Paper Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:14:46 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , 'proclus' Anyone wanna critique me a little here? My conference is June 17-19 in California, and since I am among friends here, here is my paper I will be presenting...... Kerry A. "That's why I have been so dadgum scarce this last month" Shirts Eternal Family double spaced.doc Name: Eternal Family double spaced.doc Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:32:42 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: proclus CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , Enoch Shemna References: 1 Proclus. Wow. Interesting survey. Maybe we ought to play with it ourselves first? Personally, I would check six of the 10 choices. None by itself says what I think. Of course, that is just a mutant speaking. For grins, I checked my choices below. Randall proclus wrote: > > Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek Indulgence banner on the homepage. > If anyone has an objection to this, just let me know. > > I feel that the whole of proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a molt > soon. The web is changing, and so are we. I was thinking of adding > some features to the webpage to try and increase return traffic, a poll > for example. > > How about this. > > To me, Mormonism is; > [ ] The Only True Chrurch > [ ] the only true and living church > [X] the gospel, not the Church > [X] a true church > [X] strange > [X] just another religion > [ ] irrelevant > [X] misguided > [X] apostate > [ ] totally evil > > Users would be able to see the immediate results of the poll. Are there > any ideas about this? Any ideas for the this poll, or another poll? On > the website the poll would be anonymous, but maybe we should play with > it among ourselves first. > > The logical extension from the poll is customization and configurable > boxes, a la Slashdot.com. There an enormous amount of Mormon related > stuff going on on the web, but no one is adequately serving it. We need > a Radical Mormon gateway. How far do we want to go down this road? > > I'm getting ready to move the site off of GeoCities, which is a truly > maddening website. Enoch, is there still space for us on your server? > > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:29 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 , 2 Randall Shortridge wrote: > > Proclus. Wow. Interesting survey. Maybe we ought to play with it > ourselves first? Personally, I would check six of the 10 choices. None > by itself says what I think. Of course, that is just a mutant > speaking. For grins, I checked my choices below. Hehe, I think that you are right that mutants may be uncomfortable with XOR choices ;-}. It would be interesting if we could use a "check all that apply" approach. I have included my responses in either case below. XOR option: To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [x] the only true and living church [ ] the gospel, not the Church [ ] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ ] misguided [ ] apostate [ ] totally evil not XOR option: To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [x] the only true and living church [x] the gospel, not the Church [ ] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ ] misguided [x] apostate [ ] totally evil I guess it depends on what you mean by "is". =} That is why I added "To me". It makes it more personal, and it illustrates the subjective quality of this question. One wonders about what Mormonism might be to someone else, and what they mean by "is". Personally, I favor the XOR poll on this account. Regards, proclus > Randall > > proclus wrote: > > > > Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek Indulgence banner on the homepage. > > If anyone has an objection to this, just let me know. > > > > I feel that the whole of proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a molt > > soon. The web is changing, and so are we. I was thinking of adding > > some features to the webpage to try and increase return traffic, a poll > > for example. > > > > How about this. > > > > To me, Mormonism is; > > [ ] The Only True Chrurch > > [ ] the only true and living church > > [X] the gospel, not the Church > > [X] a true church > > [X] strange > > [X] just another religion > > [ ] irrelevant > > [X] misguided > > [X] apostate > > [ ] totally evil > > > > Users would be able to see the immediate results of the poll. Are there > > any ideas about this? Any ideas for the this poll, or another poll? On > > the website the poll would be anonymous, but maybe we should play with > > it among ourselves first. > > > > The logical extension from the poll is customization and configurable > > boxes, a la Slashdot.com. There an enormous amount of Mormon related > > stuff going on on the web, but no one is adequately serving it. We need > > a Radical Mormon gateway. How far do we want to go down this road? > > > > I'm getting ready to move the site off of GeoCities, which is a truly > > maddening website. Enoch, is there still space for us on your server? > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > > > -- > > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > Version: 3.1 > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > > V-- > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > r+++ y++++ > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: geeky stuff] Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:25:38 -0400 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: geeky stuff Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:47:29 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , Enoch Shemna Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek Indulgence banner on the homepage. If anyone has an objection to this, just let me know. I feel that the whole of proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a molt soon. The web is changing, and so are we. I was thinking of adding some features to the webpage to try and increase return traffic, a poll for example. How about this. To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [ ] the only true and living church [ ] the gospel, not the Church [ ] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ ] misguided [ ] apostate [ ] totally evil Users would be able to see the immediate results of the poll. Are there any ideas about this? Any ideas for the this poll, or another poll? On the website the poll would be anonymous, but maybe we should play with it among ourselves first. The logical extension from the poll is customization and configurable boxes, a la Slashdot.com. There an enormous amount of Mormon related stuff going on on the web, but no one is adequately serving it. We need a Radical Mormon gateway. How far do we want to go down this road? I'm getting ready to move the site off of GeoCities, which is a truly maddening website. Enoch, is there still space for us on your server? Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: geeky stuff Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:50:09 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , Enoch Shemna , 'proclus' ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 4:47 PM To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Ken Shaw; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce; Enoch Shemna Subject: geeky stuff Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek Indulgence banner on the homepage. If anyone has an objection to this, just let me know. I feel that the whole of proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a molt soon. The web is changing, and so are we. I was thinking of adding some features to the webpage to try and increase return traffic, a poll for example. How about this. Kerry's answers (with explanations) To me, Mormonism is; [ x] The Only True Chrurch [ x] the only true and living church [ x] the gospel, not the Church [ x] a true church [ x] strange [ x] just another religion [ x] irrelevant [ x] misguided [ x] apostate [ x] totally evil Kerry: I'm honestly not trying to be a smart alec, but since the Gospel encompasses everything, though not all at once in any given situation throughout history, I would say it is all of the above. I have certainly found each and every one of these items within the church so far as that goes, since we are all individually an aspect of the Gospel. Being a member of God's family it behooves us all to realize the all-encompassing aspects of total inclusion of life and ea rthly experience, as we ll as meaning, getting us ready for our next stage of progression (molting as it were), into the heavenly realms. Does any of this make sense? Kerry A. Shirts Subject: RE: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:59:11 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , 'proclus' , Enoch Shemna , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Ken Shaw To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [ ] the only true and living church [ ] the gospel, not the Church [ x] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ ] misguided [ x] apostate [ ] totally evil< Robert. Subject: RE: geeky stuff Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:35:22 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Kerry Shirts , 'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com> CC: Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , Dave , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , rpc man , Beth any , 'proclus' , Enoch Shemna , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Ken Shaw ---------- From: Robert R Black[SMTP:74277.3365@compuserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 10:59 PM To: Kerry Shirts Cc: Robert R Black; Randall Shortridge; ArtdeHoyos; Joe Steve Swick III; R. Trent Reynolds; Kathleen McGuire; Andy Mcguire; Dave; Neoptolmus@aol.com; onandagus@webtv.net; rpc man; Beth any; 'proclus'; Enoch Shemna; Michael J. Pierce; Beth; Ken Shaw Subject: RE: geeky stuff To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [ ] the only true and living church [ ] the gospel, not the Church [ x] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ ] misguided [ x] apostate [ ] totally evil< Robert. Kerry: So what and where is the Gospel then? Kerry Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:40:01 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , Dave , Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, rpc man , Beth any , 'proclus' , Enoch Shemna , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Ken Shaw References: 1 To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [ ] the only true and living church [x ] the gospel, not the Church [ ] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ ] misguided [ ] apostate [ ] totally evil JSW Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:59:25 -0400 From: Enoch Shemna To: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Randall Shortridge , ArtdeHoyos , Joe Steve Swick III , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Kathleen McGuire , Andy Mcguire , Dave , Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, rpc man , Beth any , 'proclus' , "Michael J. Pierce" , Beth , Ken Shaw References: 1 To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [ ] the only true and living church [ x ] the gospel, not the Church [ x] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ x] misguided [ x] apostate [ ] totally evil Enoch Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:02:22 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 , 2 Here are the overall results, so far. To me, Mormonism is; [x] The Only True Chrurch [xx] the only true and living church [xxxxx] the gospel, not the Church [xxxx] a true church [xx] strange [xx] just another religion [x] irrelevant [xxx] misguided [xxxxx] apostate [x] totally evil If you want to vote, you still have time =}. Here are the results for people choosing XOR To me, Mormonism is; [ ] The Only True Chrurch [x] the only true and living church [x] the gospel, not the Church [ ] a true church [ ] strange [ ] just another religion [ ] irrelevant [ ] misguided [ ] apostate [ ] totally evil ... And the not XOR results To me, Mormonism is; [x] The Only True Chrurch [xx] the only true and living church [xxxx] the gospel, not the Church [xxxx] a true church [xx] strange [xx] just another religion [x] irrelevant [xxx] misguided [xxxxx] apostate [x] totally evil I don't know how significant this is, but it is pretty fun. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:44:20 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: proclus CC: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 , 2 , 3 proclus wrote: > ... And the not XOR results > > To me, Mormonism is; > [x] The Only True Chrurch > [xx] the only true and living church > [xxxx] the gospel, not the Church > [xxxx] a true church > [xx] strange > [xx] just another religion > [x] irrelevant > [xxx] misguided > [xxxxx] apostate > [x] totally evil > > I don't know how significant this is, but it is pretty fun. > > Regards, > proclus > > I agree that it is rather fun and interesting. Why don't we come up with another survey or two on related topics? Maybe how one feels about the brethern whether they receive (so-called) modern revelation? Or maybe, about polygomy, Adam-God, Bruce McKonkie and Mormon Doctrine, Brigham Young, Ezra Taft Benson and Constitutionalism, or Antimormonism? There could be a fairly interesting website set up to compile and report these surveys. Randall Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:43:41 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com, tudent007@msn.com CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org I consider myself as; [ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [ ] LDS [ ] a mormon [x] a jack-mormon [ ] a non-mormon [x] something else [x] a wierdo [ ] this survey sucks Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:42:02 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: kshaw@dalsemi.com, proclus@mac.com CC: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, tudent007@msn.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org Revised Self-Classification I consider myself as; [ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [ ] LDS [ ] a mormon [x] a radical mormon [ ] a fundamentalist mormon [ ] a jack-mormon [ ] a non-mormon [x] something else [x] a wierdo [ ] this survey sucks Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:02:50 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: Ken Shaw CC: proclus@mac.com, tudent007@msn.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org References: 1 > I consider myself as; > [ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints > [ ] LDS > [ ] a mormon > [ ] a jack-mormon > [x] a non-mormon > [x] something else > [x] a wierdo > [ ] this survey sucks [x] a former mormon [ ] a future mormon [ ] a reformed mormon [?] a mormon sympathizer [ ] a fundamentalist mormon [ ] a nazi-mormon [ ] a sheep [ ] always in trouble with mormons [ ] would like to kill all mormons I believe that polygomy: [ ] is required for salvation [ ] will bring damnation [ ] is totally irrelevant [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind [ ] is a dream of mine [ ] is only for about 5% of us [ ] but, not for the rest of you [ ] is unfair to women [ ] is unfair to men [ ] is lust in action [ ] places men in bondage [ ] places women in bondage [ ] is good to conserve resources [ ] should be restored in the LDS church [ ] should never be spoken about [ ] what's polygomy? > > > > I believe that polygomy: > > > > [x] is required for salvation > > [ ] will bring damnation > > [ ] is totally irrelevant > > [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind > > [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind > > [ ] is a dream of mine > > [ ] is only for about 5% of us > > [ ] but, not for the rest of you > > [ ] is unfair to women > > [ ] is unfair to men > > [x] is lust in action > > [ ] places men in bondage > > [ ] places women in bondage > > [ ] is good to conserve resources > > [ ] should be restored in the LDS church > > [ ] should never be spoken about > > [ ] what's polygomy? > Ken Shaw Subject: FYI-Indian Israel? Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:54:30 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, TNeoptolmus@aol.com, oonandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, timquick@cwnet.com The following announcement is posted at http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm refer there for up-dates and further information. Also posted there is a brief word study relevant to their coming. Sterling D. Allan http://www.GreaterThings.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MAYAN ELDERS COMING TO TOWN From: L De Lynn Hansen Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 1:27 PM Howdy all.... Two Mayan elders will be coming up from the South to open the knowledge of many hidden Mayan prophecies and details from the Mayan calender. They were invited here by Chief Robert Three Eagles, a friend of mine and resident of Kanab, Utah. When the invitation was given, they discussed this with their senior elders and after much prayer and fasting, they decided now was the time to come to those people of the north and make the connection as they have a part to play here in the near future. This will start June 4th at the location of the Relief Mine (Dream Mine/bishop Koyle) at their request to give this mine their blessing in a special ceremony. Saturday and Sunday they will be speaking at the National Guard building in Spani sh Fork, Utah [see map] through a translator. Contact me f o r f urther information. Doc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The above announcement is posted at http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm refer there for up-dates and further information. Sterling at http://www.GreaterThings.com Subject: Sufi stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:53:17 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, ".Neoptolmus"@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com Partial synopsis of Manifestations of Thought by Molana-al-Moazam Hazrat Shah Maghsoud Sadegh Angha The whole of existence is a single living being. Everything is perfect and whole. Our fear and suffering arises from ignorance of our true identity. Marifat (gnosis) is the recognition of our true identity. God is the only thing that exists at all...period. Our experience of being seperate "individuals" is a temporary state of confusion. When we are dreaming, we appear as one of the characters in the dream, but the dream is "contained" in us at the same time. We are simultaniously the dreamer and the "dreamed". Our world is being "dreamed" into existence in the mind of God, and our appearance in that dream is a "character" in that dream. Since God is the only "Being" that exists at all, each one of us is both the "dreamer" and the "dreamed" at the same time. Ken Shaw Re: FYI-Indian Israel? Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:10:58 -0400 From: proclus To: Ken Shaw CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, TNeoptolmus@aol.com, oonandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, timquick@cwnet.com References: 1 Ken, you are a blessed man for posting that. Where do you find this stuff?!:-} I only wish that I could be there. It sounds great. Maybe Terence is right about hyperspace and the mayan calendar. I've had very disjointed sense of reality of late. Heh, that could just be because of The Matrix, though. I've seen it three times. Regards, proclus Ken Shaw wrote: > > The following announcement is posted at > http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm > refer there for up-dates and further information. > Also posted there is a brief word study relevant to their > coming. > > Sterling D. Allan > http://www.GreaterThings.com > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > MAYAN ELDERS COMING TO TOWN > > From: L De Lynn Hansen > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 1:27 PM > > Howdy all.... > > Two Mayan elders will be coming up from the South to open > the knowledge of many hidden Mayan prophecies and details > from the Mayan calender. They were invited here by Chief > Robert Three Eagles, a friend of mine and resident of Kanab, > Utah. When the invitation was given, they discussed this > with their senior elders and after much prayer and fasting, > they decided now was the time to come to those people of the > north and make the connection as they have a part to play > here in the near future. > > This will start June 4th at the location of the Relief Mine > (Dream Mine/bishop Koyle) at their request to give this mine > their blessing in a special ceremony. Saturday and Sunday > they will be speaking at the National Guard building in > Spanish Fork, Utah [see map] through a translator. Contact > me for further information. > > Doc > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > The above announcement is posted at > http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm > refer there for up-dates and further information. > Sterling at http://www.GreaterThings.com -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:08:28 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Ken Shaw , rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com CC: kshaw@dalsemi.com, tudent007@msn.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org References: 1 I believe that polygamy: [x] is required for salvation [x] will bring damnation [ ] is totally irrelevant [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind [ ] is a dream of mine [ ] is only for about 5% of us [ ] but, not for the rest of you [ ] is unfair to women [ ] is unfair to men [ ] is lust in action [ ] places men in bondage [ ] places women in bondage [ ] is good to conserve resources [ ] should be restored in the LDS church [ ] should never be spoken about [ ] what's polygamy? > Ken Shaw > Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:16:37 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Ken Shaw , proclus@mac.com CC: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, tudent007@msn.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org References: 1 I consider myself: [x] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [ ] LDS [x] a mormon [x] a radical mormon [ ] a fundamentalist mormon [x] one of those rare "fundamentalist" mormons who is not racist [ ] a jack-mormon [ ] a non-mormon [x] something else [ ] a wierdo [ ] this survey sucks Subject: RE: geeky stuff Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:29:39 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , 'proclus' CC: Ken Shaw , "tudent007@msn.com" , "MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com" , "ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" , "timquick@cwnet.com" , "ariel144@hotmail.com" , "comdb@yahoo.com" , "jswick@cris.com" , "kathleen@enol.com" , "shirtail@cyberhighway.net" , "mpierce@switchsoft.com" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "trent@goodnet.com" , "74277.3365@compuserve.com" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "rpcman@hotmail.com" , "enoch144@eagle-net.org" ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 3:15 PM To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu Cc: Ken Shaw; tudent007@msn.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; timquick@cwnet.com; ariel144@hotmail.com; comdb@yahoo.com; jswick@cris.com; kathleen@enol.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; trent@goodnet.com; 74277.3365@compuserve.com; rpcman@hotmail.com; enoch144@eagle-net.org Subject: Re: geeky stuff Here we go! Kerry says: > I believe that polygomy: > > [ ] is required for salvation > [ ] will bring damnation > [x ] is totally irrelevant > [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind > [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind > [ ] is a dream of mine > [ ] is only for about 5% of us > [ ] but, not for the rest of you > [ ] is unfair to women > [ ] is unfair to men > [ ] is lust in action > [ ] places men in bondage > [ ] places women in bondage > [ ] is good to conserve resources > [ ] should be restored in the LDS church > [ ] should never be spoken about > [ x] what's polygomy? (GRIN!) Kerry A. Shirts Subject: RE: geeky stuff Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:09:47 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , 'proclus' , Beth any , rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , Ken Shaw , Beth , "Michael J. Pierce" , Enoch Shemna Message text written by Kerry Shirts >Kerry: So what and where is the Gospel then?< I guess that you did not know. I am a follower of Ross LeBaron. The true successor, in fact. I am an associate of Fred Collier. The _TRUTH_ lies in plural marriage, Adam-God, and true temple Mormonism. The LDS still have the Aaronic Priesthood and their temple work is under the Aaronic Priesthood. This is the nutshell version. What the LDS have is true, but there is much more. Robert. Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:09:57 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Joe Steve Swick III CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , Ken Shaw , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" I believe that polygamy: [x] is required for salvation [x] will bring damnation [ ] is totally irrelevant [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind [ ] is a dream of mine [ ] is only for about 5% of us [ ] but, not for the rest of you [ ] is unfair to women [ ] is unfair to men [ ] is lust in action [ ] places men in bondage [ ] places women in bondage [ ] is good to conserve resources [ ] should be restored in the LDS church [ ] should never be spoken about [ ] what's polygamy? Robert. Subject: Re: geeky stuff Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:10:00 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" I consider myself as; [ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [ ] LDS [ ] a mormon [x] a radical mormon [x] a fundamentalist mormon [ ] a jack-mormon [ ] a non-mormon [ ] something else [ ] a wierdo [ ] this survey sucks Robert Subject: another survey -- Adam-God Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:48:13 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge To: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> CC: Joe Steve Swick III , "[unknown]" , Ken Shaw , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" References: 1 Another survey for our amusement.... Regarding the Adam-God doctrine, I believe that: [ ] it is a true doctrine. [ ] I have never heard of it. [ ] I wish I had never heard of it. [ ] Brigham was misquoted. [ ] Brigham was misunderstood. [ ] Brigham was misguided. [ ] I want to know more, please send missionaries. [ ] Forget it, I've tried that last one. [ ] I will ask my bishop. [ ] I will tell my bishop about you. [ ] I don't care, I follow a modern prophet. [ ] if you keep asking, you will be in a disciplinary council. [ ] it is a fabrication by anti-mormons. [ ] it is a fabrication by mormons. [ ] Adam was our Father and Jesus's father in the physical sense, nothing else. [ ] it means that Adam is one of the Eloiheim. [ ] let's change the subject. Subject: Re: another survey -- Adam-God Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:26:18 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu CC: jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Student007@msn.com > Another surve y for our amusement.... > > Re ga rd ing the Adam-God doctrine, I believe that: > > [x ] it is a true doctrine. > [ ] I have never heard of it. > [ ] I wish I had never heard of it. > [ ] Brigham was misquoted. > [x ] Brigham was misunderstood. > [ ] Brigham was misguided. > [ ] I want to know more, please send missionaries. > [ ] Forget it, I've tried that last one. > [ ] I will ask my bishop. > [ ] I will tell my bishop about you. > [ ] I don't care, I follow a modern prophet. > [ ] if you keep asking, you will be in a disciplinary council. > [ ] it is a fabrication by anti-mormons. > [ ] it is a fabrication by mormons. > [ ] Adam was our Father and Jesus's father in the physical sense, > nothing else. > [x ] it means that Adam is one of the Eloiheim. > [ ] let's change the subject. > > Brigham got this from Joseph for sure. Even the so-called "adamic" Name of God "Ahman" is a kind of a joke that lays down a clue. It becomes plain when Joseph goes on to use "Son Ahman" and "Sons Ahman". that he's playing with us. The "ah" of "Ahman" is probably "iah" (YaHuVeH) and "man" is "adam" in hebrew. So the true name of God in the "pure language of Adam" is none other than "Yah-Adam". YaHuVeh is a form of "hayah" (I Am) which means "was-am-will be" or, in other words, "Eternal". Eternal-Adam something other than what our imaginations came come to grips with, but it looks like the Universe went through the whole process of unfolding into Space-Time, congealing stars and planets out of Itself, launching "reflections" of Itself into matter to create Life, and then carefully evolving an organizism that had the capacity to "realize reality". It looks like the "Whole-of-Existence" evolved us out of the dust in order to "see Itself". Ken Shaw Subject: Judy's Sufi essay Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:18:40 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, kshaw@dalsemi.com CC: jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Student007@msn.com Hail Mutants! I'm sending along this book-report that my wife Judy wrote as part of our studies with the MTO Shahmaghsoudi School of Islamic Sufism. Ken ------------------------------------------------ BOOK REVIEW OF "THE CHASM OF FIRE" by Irina Tweedie In the preface of her book, "The Chasm of Fire", Irina Tweedie states: "Somewhere in one of the Upanishads - I do not remember which one - there is a sentence which puts our quest for spirituality in a nutshell: "If you want Truth as badly as a drowning man wants air, you will realize it in a split second. It is the task of the Teacher to set the heart aflame with an unquenchable fire of longing; it is his duty to keep it burning until it is reduced to ashes. For only a heart which has burned itself empty is capable of love." My heart also feels a longing for truth, a longing for home, somehow forgotten. If obtaining heaven on earth is as simple as wanting it, then it is my prayer that I may have the faith to follow simple instructions such as reading a book and meditating so that my heart my also be capable of such love. "The Chasm of Fire" was written as a diary of the author's observations while studying with a Sufi Master in India in 1961. This book is a detailed record of Ms. Tweedie's spiritual training. It is an "account of the slow grinding down of personality - a painful process for Man cannot remake himself without suffering." Through this painful process, Irina Tweedie was able to find true liberation and come to know that "the Path of Love is like a bridge of hair across a Chasm of Fire." My mind recalled a teaching I received from one of my very first visits to Kannegah while reading the first few pages. When the author first met her master she stated: "When I arrived I had a feeling of coming home; and I cannot get rid of the impression that I knew you before. That I knew you always." Ms. Tweedie also asked the importance of needing a teacher. Likewise, I recalled a similar feeling sitting at my first session of instruction. Mr. Madaani taught me that a true student of Sufism can only learn through the experience of the heart opened to his teacher, a spiritual guide, or spiritual master. He advised me to pray to have my teacher revealed unto me that I may "know him". The importance of not placing my focus and attention on the understanding of the words or books but that I needed to experience the feeling in my heart while this words were read or heard. Since then, I have come to realize that it is necessary to be guided by the "arif or Pir , my spiritual master". This teaching is of great importance because the master has already attained a state of absolute cognition and will guide me on the path. The Pir will provide me the necessary experiences for my development and progress, "just as a gardener cares for each of his plants." A Sufi teacher acts as a mirror, reflecting everything back to the student in order that the student can see him/herslef clearly in order to be able to cognize the absolute. Consequently the student learns from his/her own experience. This rocess changes, stimulates, alters, and leads one on the path of God. Two important tools of the training are concentration and mediation used to aid one in overcoming the disturbances and direct the correct flow of energy. I have been taught that there is a difference between concentration and mediation, two different but necessary steps along the path. As I have come to understand, concentration is focusing or collecting all the energy on the sources. There are thirteen sources active and the main source is the source of life, which is located in the heart. One begins with concentration, focusing on the body and mind. Mediation means absolute awareness. The first step towards mediation is reaching the proper state of concentration. Absolute awareness exists when one is able to have complete harmony and become present. Thus concentration and mediation enable one to experience and discover the source of life. Another teaching mentioned in the book was Zikr. The author reported that her master " looked radiant, singing this Persian song, beating time on his thigh with the palm of his hand. I quickly remembered hearing the singing for the first time. It was disturbing, as if familiar and yet it seemed to transport me to another time or place of being. Although I did not understand the language in most of the songs, I was deeply moved even to tears, as if trying to grasp long forgotten memories buried deep inside. Since that first experience, I have learned that it is not important to listen with my mind to understand the meaning of the language or words of the songs, but to concentrate on the feeling in my heart. As I sway to the rythmn of the music, I begin to feel a powerful force or energy develop in the region of my heart and begin to flow throughout my entire being which mingles with the energies of the others and charges the room with a feeling of electricity. Sometimes I feel a sense of "drunkenness", a very warm dizzy feeling which fills the entire room and I never want this feeling to end. I am so thankful when these kinds of feelings last for several days afterwards and it is a longing for this drink which brings me back each week. Zikr means to remember-remembering God at all times. The concept of habits was also discussed in the book. I recalled Mr. Soborie's teaching on habits several weeks ago. When we create habits we prevent growth. Habits injure our feelings and we imprison ourselves; imprisonment is limitation, limitation is suffering. Even prayer can become a habit. Lastly, the sum of my experience while reading and mediating was the burning of love in my heart while reading and mediating this past week. The one concept the author had such difficulty grasping was the concept of love. Love is the essence of Sufism. It is the union of the lover with the beloved. Love is the foundation as taught by the prophets. Jesus instructed his followers to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This spiritual love is the same love which exists between spiritual teachers and students, between masters and disciples. This love is centered in the heart and is the goal of the student to remove the veils so that we can cognize God. Hazart Pir teaches that "this kind of cognition is obtained only through loving, obeying and worshipping God by all means, with the self, heart and mind under the supervision of a master who will be introduced inwardly and secretly by God through the seeker's heart." There are no words to describe this type of intense burning or desire. Last week, Mr. Soborie said that he knew what we needed, then he gave us the instruction to read and mediate. Although I did not realize it at the time the assignment was given, I have come to know that this assignment was exactly what I needed to experience-spiritual love. The taste has been given and my desire stirred enough that my thirst must be quenched. May the Chasm of Fire purify my heart also. Subject: RE: another survey -- Adam-God Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:53:50 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna Oh goody! Regarding the Adam-God doctrine, I believe that: [ x ] it is a true doctrine. [ ] I have never heard of it. [ ] I wish I had never heard of it. [ ] Brigham was misquoted. [ x ] Brigham was misunderstood. [ ] Brigham was misguided. [ ] I want to know more, please send missionaries. [ ] Forget it, I've tried that last one. [ ] I will ask my bishop. [ ] I will tell my bishop about you. [ ] I don't care, I follow a modern prophet. [ ] if you keep asking, you will be in a disciplinary council. [ ] it is a fabrication by anti-mormons. [ ] it is a fabrication by mormons. [ ] Adam was our Father and Jesus's father in the physical sense, nothing else. [ x ] it means that Adam is one of the Eloiheim. [ ] let's change the subject. I appears to be pretty easy to set up a survey on the web. I'm going to be away from my computer this weekend, so I this will have to wait until I get back. There are a couple of issues, and they revolve around the use of cookies. First, the XOR option may be the only option at this time. The server uses cookies to prevent people from "cheating" and voting more than once. You can turn off the cookie option, which would allow people to effectively vote for more than one thing. Unfortunately, this means that they would also be able to intentionally skew the survey by voting for the same thing more than once. This makes the cookie option sounds pretty good, until you realize that _some people_ will be paranoid about a survey that writes a cookie. ;-} It is a bit of a dilemma. If we use cookies, our results will be more reliable and our survey will be more secure against tampering. On the other hand, we may be stuck with the XOR option, and cookies may turn people away. Personally, I am MOST interested in the opinions of the paranoids, who might be turned off by the cookies. If any of you have an opinion about this, it would be great to hear it. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: another survey -- tarot Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:03:28 -0400 From: proclus To: proclus References: 1 I got another idea for a survey, not for us, but it would give an idea of what we can do. Here it is. If you think it needs some work, feel free. To me, tarot cards are: [ ] a stack of cardboard [ ] maligned by superstitious people [ ] a tool of the devil [ ] a tool for exploration [ ] a tool for divination (proclus grinz) Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: another survey -- tarot] Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:05:07 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna Subject: Re: another survey -- tarot Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:03:28 -0400 From: proclus To: proclus References: 1 I got another idea for a survey, not for us, but it would give an idea of what we can do. Here it is. If you think it needs some work, feel free. To me, tarot cards are: [ ] a stack of cardboard [ ] maligned by superstitious people [ ] a tool of the devil [ ] a tool for exploration [ ] a tool for divination (proclus grinz) Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: another survey -- tarot] Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:16:27 -0400 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: another survey -- tarot Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:36:33 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shir tail@cyberhighway.net, mpier ce@ swi tch soft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org I got another idea for a survey, not for us, but it would give an idea of what we can do. Here it is. If you think it needs some work, feel free. To me, tarot cards are: [ ] a stack of cardboard [ ] maligned by superstitious people [ ] a tool of the devil [ ] a tool for exploration [ ] a tool for divination [X] an artifact of a discarded training method Ken Shaw Subject: Fwd: another survey -- Adam-God Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Love Reply-To: proclus@mac.com To: proclus@mac.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Subject: another survey -- Adam-God Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:41:20 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Randall Shortridge CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , Ken Shaw , "[unknown]" , Joe Steve Swick III Regarding the Adam-God doctrine, I believe that: [x ] it is a true doctrine. [ ] I have never heard of it. [ ] I wish I had never heard of it. [ ] Brigham was misquoted. [ ] Brigham was misunderstood. [ ] Brigham was misguided. [ ] I want to know more, please send missionaries. [ ] Forget it, I've tried that last one. [ ] I will ask my bishop. [ ] I will tell my bishop about you. [ ] I don't care, I follow a modern prophet. [ ] if you keep asking, you will be in a disciplinary council. [ ] it is a fabrication by anti-mormons. [ ] it is a fabrication by mormons. [ ] Adam was our Father and Jesus's father in the physical sense, nothing else. [ ] it means that Adam is one of the Eloiheim. [ ] let's change the subject. Robert. Subject: Fwd: Re: another survey -- tarot Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:13:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Love Reply-To: proclus@mac.com To: proclus@mac.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Subject: Re: another survey -- tarot Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:35:07 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Ken Shaw , MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, George Head References: 1 Maybe injecting a bit of cynical humor would be nice. JSW To me, tarot cards are: [ ] a stack of cardboard [ ] maligned by superstitious people [ ] a unique form of art [ ] a tool of the Devil [ ] a tool of God [ ] a tool of both God and the Devil -- I mean, what's the difference? [ ] a tool for exploration [ ] the Voice [ ] a tool used by the avaricious to separate the superstitious from their money [ ] a key for unlocking perceptual doors [ ] the mystic's equivalent of the morning cup of espresso [ ] a blueprint of / travel guide to the human psyche [ ] a tool for divination [ ] a babe magnet [ ] an artifact of a discarded training method Subject: Fwd: another survey -- tarot Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:14:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Love Reply-To: proclus@mac.com To: proclus@mac.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Subject: another survey -- tarot Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:41:24 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" To me, tarot cards are: [ ] a stack of cardboard [ ] maligned by superstitious people [ ] a tool of the devil [ ] a tool for exploration [ ] a tool for divination [X] an artifact of a discarded training method Robert. Subject: Fwd: RE: another survey -- tarot Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:17:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Love Reply-To: proclus@mac.com To: proclus@mac.com === Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ---Kerry Shirts wrote: > > > > ---------- > From: Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@cris.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 12:35 PM > To: Ken Shaw; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; > timquick@cwnet.com; ariel144@hotmail.com; comdb@yahoo.com; > kathleen@enol.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; mpierce@switchsoft.com; > onandagus@webtv.net; proclus@mac.com; trent@goodnet.com; > rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; 74277.3365@compuserve.com; rpcman@hotmail.com; > enoch144@eagle-net.org; George Head > Subject: Re: another survey -- tarot > > Maybe injecting a bit of cynical humor would be nice. JSW > > To me, tarot cards are: > > Kerry says > > [x ] a stack of cardboard [in some cases they are!] > [ ] maligned by superstitious people > [ x] a unique form of art [this without question] > [ x] a tool of the Devil [can certainly be used as such] > [ x] a tool of God [can certainly be used as such] > [ x] a tool of both God and the Devil -- I mean, what's the difference? > [the difference is in how people use them] > [ x] a tool for exploration [without question they get my juices flowing > at times] > [ x] the Voice [the voice? Are we schizto here or something?!] > [ x] a tool used by the avaricious to separate the superstitious from > their > money [without question] > [ x] a key for unlocking perceptual doors [again, without question] > [ x] the mystic's equivalent of the morning cup of espresso [cute! But no > kidding, I know people that use it for such!] > [ ] a blueprint of / travel guide to the human psyche > [ x] a tool for divination [as was the ancient Urim & Thummim] > [ ] a babe magnet > [ ] an artifact of a discarded training method > > Kerry A. Shirts > > Subject: BoM stuff Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:29:04 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: kshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, Student007@msn.com CC: proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu Howdy! As much as people rail against "The Book 0f Mormon", the fact is that it exists and is an astonishing phenomona. The BoM cannot be explained away. I've been trying to understand what exactly happened to Joseph Smith for 25 years, and the only other place I've found anything like it is the Tibetan Buddhist tradition of "Termas". A "Terma" is a scripture that was hidden by a Buddhist Yogi in the past, to come forth in a time when the info could be of benefit. The finders of "Termas" are called "Tertons" who are Buddhist holy men. "Tertons" lead by dreams and visions to a place where the ground or rocks miraculously open up to their prayers and spells to yield up texts written in an unknow script called "dakini script". Only the "Terton" has the yogic power to decipher the text, but some others are allowed to view the text. All this leads me to see a connection between appearance of YaHuWeH on Sinai, the "pillar of fire" that followed the camp of Israel, the conception of Jesus, and "First Vision" of Joseph Smith with the so called "UFO" phenomona and the ancient Buddhist theory of "Bodhisatvas". "Bodhisatvas" are people who followed the Yogic path of salation to the point of "Full Awakening", only to stop short in order to continue to labor in this realm of reality in order to try to teach and help all us poor jokers left back here in this nightmare world. The "Bodhisatva" is the origin of concept of "Angels" in the ancient world. Kenneth Shaw Subject: FYI-Fundamentalist stuff Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:04:10 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: kshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, Student007@msn.com CC: proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu Sterling, In the early Eighties I became good friends with Ernest Strack of Grandpa's Books fame in Provo. His whole focus was on the old "Fundamentalist" tradition of the "Keys of the Priesthood" being transferred to the "Lamanites" at Pyramid Lake in Nevada in 1890. He lived and died in the hope of the appearance of the "Indian Prophet" as "The One Mighty and Strong" to "set in order the House of God". After awhile I couldn't buy into as deep as he, and we parted company as I went out into the world to sort out what I really believe. Ernest died in 1990 from a cancer started in his throat after being beaten up for polygamy. Later I learned about the Mayan calendar system and the date of 12/22/2012 and the continued existance of an intact religious tradition among the Mayas. That started me wondering about all that old "fundamentalist" stuff again and stirred up the old feelings of love and friendship and religious hope. If you really want me to write something, let me know. Ken Shaw --------- Ken, Yes, I would be interested in having you writing something up, if you feel you have something that would be of interest to others -- and it sounds like you do. If anything, something to stir up some good questions (which are what bring good answers). We could post (link) it at the Mayan Elders Coming web page. A resource you might find of interest here is Scott Anderson. He is the one who lent me "keys of the priesthood illustrated" several years back. He's heavy into the Lamanite stuff. Maybe the two of you could collaborate on something to post. You need to do it pretty soon, because I'm getting married Saturday, leaving for a honeymoon for a week following. (see www.greaterthings.com/engaged/ ) Sterling http://www.GreaterThings.com ---------------------- 'SIYO (HELLO) KEN, I AM AN OLD FRIEND OF THE STRACKS ALSO, AND A FRIEND OF ROBERT THREE EAGL= ES SHREWSBURY=20 AND MANDY SINCE ABOUT 1991. I CUT MY TEETH ON "KEYS OF THE PRIESTHOOD ILLUSTRATED" IN 1985 I WAS AND REMAIN A FIRM BELIEVER I THE FULLNESS, AND THE INDIAN PROPHET T= O COME SOON. I AM A STOCKHOLDER IN THE RELIEF MINE. I AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE MAYANS THAT HAVE BEEN ACTIVE IN THE us. AND T= HEIR CONTACTS HERE IN THE U.S. I FEATURE THEIR WRITINGS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS ON MY WEBSITE. SOON AFTER 1977, I WAS BEEN TOLD IN A SERIES OF DREAMS (AFTER I JOINED TH= E CHURCH THAT=20 YEAR), THAT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT WOULD HAPPEN AFTER I HAD BEEN IN TH= E CHURCH FOR 7 YEARS,=20 AND AFTER I WAS 30 YEARS OLD. IN DEC 1994, I TURNED 30 YEARS OLD. THE NEXT MARCH, I WAS IN THE WHITMORE= LIBRARY AND FOUND LYNN AND STEVEN BISHOP'S BOOK MENTIONED ABOVE, I HEARD AN AUDIBLE VOICE TELL M= E TO "READ THAT BOOK". I SOON MET RHEA KUNZ (B. HARVEY ALLRED'S DAUGHTER WHO KNEW LORIN C WOOLLE= Y AS A CHILD)=20 RHEA TAUGHT ME ABOUT THE FULLNESS, AND TO STAY AWAY FROM THE POLYGAMY GRO= UPS.=20 MY CURIOSITY GOT THE BEST OF ME, AND I DID DISCUSS THINGS WITH ROSS LEBAR= ON AND OTHERS.=20 I NEVER BOUGHT INTO ANY GROUP. I DID HAPPEN TO GET A JOB AT A MORTGAGE CO= MPANY OWNED BY =20 ONE OF THE POLYGAMIST LEADERS IN COLORADO CITY, AND LIVED THERE LONG ENOU= GH TO FIND OUT=20 WHAT A MESS POLYG GROUPS ARE. THEY ARE JUST AS OUT-OF-ORDER AS THE CHURCH= (AND EVERY OTHER RELIGION ON EARTH) IS (EXCEPT FOR THE ORGANIZATION THAT DOES EXIST ON EAR= TH AND IN THE ETERNITIES=20 TO SET IT IN ORDER) I WAS LIVING IN MANTI WHEN THE HARMSTONS WERE STARTING THINGS UP, BUT LEF= T AFTER=20 THEY BECAME A CHURCH. THEY WERE VERY INTERESTED IN NATIVE AMERICAN THINGS= , AND SOUGHT=20 ADOPTION BY THE IROQUOIS, BUT SOON SHOWED THEIR TRUE COLORS. RHEA INTRODUCED ME TO HER FRIEND AND HOPI SPOKESPERSON ZULA BRINKERHOFF, = WHO INTRODUCED=20 ME TO THREE EAGLES, AND GRANDFATHER ROLLING THUNDER, THE CHEROKEE MEDICIN= E TEACHER. I MOVED TO MAOB AFTER THE DEATH OF MY FIRST WIFE JOANNE IN MID 1995. I PUBLISHED THE "JOURNAL OF PROPHECIES OF NATIVE PEOPLES WORLDWIDE" IN SE= PTEMBER OF 1995. IT WENT ON THE INTERNET THE FOLLOWING YEAR. I SOON BECAME ACTIVE IN NATIVE AMERICAN AFFAIRS WITH MY OWN CHEROKEE PEOP= LE IN 1996, AND=20 ENROLLED IN ONE OF THE CHEROKEE TRIBES.=20 SOME MORE BACKGROUND ON MY AFFAIRS: IN THE WINTER OF 1998, I BEGAN HELPING THE 5TH GREAT GRANDSON OF THE FAMO= US CHEROKEE LEADER MAJOR RIDGE TO GET THE SOUTHERN CHEROKEE NATION (WHICH WAS LEFT IN POLITICAL LI= MBO AFTER THE=20 CIVIL WAR) REORGANIZED UNDER THE 1827 CONSTITUTION, REASSERTING IT AS A S= OVEREIGN NATION. IT HAS THE SAME STATUS LEGALLY AS NORTH KORAE, SINCE IT CEASEFIRED WITH THE U.S.= AND WAS NOT VANQUISHED. DETAILS AT http://cwyphoenix.hypermart.net=20 MAJOR RIDGE, HIS SON JOHN, AND ELIAS BOUDINOT WERE MURDERED AFTER BEING U= NJUSTLY BLAMED=20 FOR THE TRAIL O F TE ARS. HISTORIANS HAVE VINDICATED THE RIDGES AND BOUDINO= T, AND PLACED=20 MUCH OF THE BLAME ON JOHN ROSS, PRINCIPAL CHIEF OF THE EASTERN CHEROKEES = AT THE TIME. WE HAVE REPUBLISHED THE CHEROKEE PHOENIX (THE FIRST NATIVE AMERICAN NEWSP= APER) AND I AM ITS EDITOR. I NOW LIVE IN OKLAHOMA CITY. HOPE TO CORRESPONDING WITH YOU SOON! WADO (THANKS) SCOTT Subject: Sufi parable Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:39:20 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: kshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu "Dhu'l Nun was said to have learned the secret of the hieroglyphs in the following way. At a certain market in Egypt, there stood a statue of a Pharoah pointing toward a rock. On the finger of the statue was inscribed, "Strike here for treasures." People had battered the hard rock for many years. It was very hard and little progress was made. Dhu'l Nun seeing that this was not a profitable avenue, began to look for other meanings. He noticed that the shadow of the finger traced a line along the pavement exactly at a point between two paving stones. He pried up the stones and found several items of strange manufacture, which when he deduced the *methods* used for their construction, he was able to regain the lost arts of the Pharaohs. This story has many meanings for the Order of Setne Khamuast. Some of them include the word "Egypt." One of Dhu'l Nun's nicknames was "the Egyptian." Well he was ethnically Egyptian, but more to the point "Egypt" in Sufi literature means "worldly." It is the domain of matter and darkness -- the first domain to be mastered. He didn't find his enlightenment in some rare temple or special spiritual study. He found it in the world. He found it by looking where other people didn't look. And when he found it, he had to discover the methods by which the artifacts had been made." --------------------------------------------------- Khidr (Elijah), the teacher of Magi, came to Moses and warned him that Allah was annoyed at mankind, and was going to punish them by driving them mad. Allah was going to do this by poisoning the waters. So the wise could hoard up water now, and thus remain sane. Many did so. They sealed the water away in special jugs marked with the six pointed star of stasis. They were sure they could remain sane. But as they went forth in the world, they noticed that men now spoke in strange ways and they could not understand the actions of men. They noticed that men now acted in strange ways, and they could not understand what men did. And men hearing the wise either grew angry, or full of compassion at these madmen. So one by one, due to loneliness and to economic reasons and to fear of the madmen, the wise gave up drinking pure water and drank the waters of the Earth. They forgot all about their special store of water, and slowly they became like the rest. The rest of mankind welcomed them with open arms -- seeing them as madmen who had regained their sanity. FYI-Fundy stuff Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:28:59 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: kshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu Scott, I'm pretty sure I met you once in Ernest's store in Provo. I think you were making some observations about Bruce R. McKonkie's coming down with cancer of the colin. I've got through alot of changes since those Grandpa's Books days, but those experiences have shaped my life forever. Of all the explanations of what the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack interpretation still stands up as the strongest and most logically consistant. I've ended up following Ernest's lead by seeking out a connection to the Sufi tradition, and I'm now trying to apply myself to the dicplines of the Sufi Path with all my heart. Ernest was both an Islamic Sufi and an "Old Guard Mormon Fundamentalist" at the same time. You have your connection to the inner teachings of your own people, I've had to seek out my teachers following what clues God has given me. I'm wondering if God has put us back in contact with each other as part of something that is going on. I will try to make myself available to God any way I can. Your servant, Kenneth Shaw Subject: sacred geometry Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:35:27 -0600 From: "Michael J. Pierce" To: 'Kerry Shirts' , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , "Michael J. Pierce" , 'proclus' Anyone out there know anything about sacred Geometry. I read that it is to convince the left brain of the Oneness of God?? Subject: FW: FYI-Fundy stuff Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:45:32 -0400 From: "McGuire, Andy" To: "Mike Love (E-mail)" Mike, If you recall, Grandpa's Books was that neet-o place I dragged you on your first visit to Pervo (a.k.a. Provo) In about a week I'll sned you links to the web site I've been working on for The Man. Until then....gotta get back to working on it. -Andy -----Original Message----- From: kshaw [mailto:kshaw@dalsemi.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 9:29 AM To: kshaw; 74277.3365 Cc: proclus; enoch144; rpcman; trent; onandagus; mpierce; shirtail; kathleen; jswick; comdb; ariel144; timquick; ArtdeHoyos; MCGUIREA; tudent007; rds Subject: FYI-Fundy stuff Scott, I'm pretty sure I met you once in Ernest's store in Provo. I think you were making some observations about Bruce R. McKonkie's coming down with cancer of the colin. I've got through alot of changes since those Grandpa's Books days, but those experiences have shaped my life forever. Of all the explanations of what the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack interpretation still stands up as the strongest and most logically consistant. I've ended up following Ernest's lead by seeking out a connection to the Sufi tradition, and I'm now trying to apply myself to the dicplines of the Sufi Path with all my heart. Ernest was both an Islamic Sufi and an "Old Guard Mormon Fundamentalist" at the same time. You have your connection to the inner teachings of your own people, I've had to seek out my teachers following what clues God has given me. I'm wondering if God has put us back in contact with each other as part of something that is going on. I will try to make myself available to God any way I can. Your servant, Kenneth Shaw Subject: Re: sacred geometry Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:55:02 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: "Michael J. Pierce" , 'Kerry Shirts' , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus , Beth , 'proclus' References: 1 ___MJP___ Anyone out there know anything about sacred Geometry. I read that it is to convince the left brain of the Oneness of God?? ----- An fair introductory text to sacred geometry would be Lawlor, Robert. Sacred Geometry: Philosophy and Practice, Thames and Hudson, 1982 ISBN 0-500-81030-3 Cheers, JSW Subject: Enoch.com Hacked! Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:09:03 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna I thought that you might like to know that Enoch's server has been hacked. My agent discovered this one. Check it out. http://www.enoch.com/ Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Enoch.com Hacked! Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:47:26 -0400 From: Enoch Shemna To: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net, "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw References: 1 This is not my server but Eagle-Net was hacked like this two weeks ago- hackers are on the rise lately. Enoch > I thought that you might like to know that Enoch's server has been > hacked. My agent discovered this one. Check it out. > > http://www.enoch.com/ > > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Enoch.com Hacked! Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:33:30 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: Enoch Shemna CC: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net, "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw References: 1 , 2 Maybe I am being paranoid (as usual), but I wonder how many hackers are on the government payroll. ;-) Or at least from divisions of government, since one hand doesn't always know what the other one doeth. Randall Enoch Shemna wrote: > > This is not my server but Eagle-Net was hacked like this two weeks ago- > hackers are on the rise lately. > > Enoch > > > I thought that you might like to know that Enoch's server has been > > hacked. My agent discovered this one. Check it out. > > > > http://www.enoch.com/ > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > > > -- > > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > Version: 3.1 > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > > V-- > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > r+++ y++++ > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: FYI-Fundy stuff Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 05:33:59 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" Message text written by Ken Shaw >I've got through alot of changes since those Grandpa's Books days, but those experiences have shaped my life forever. Of all the explanations of what the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack interpretation still stands up as the strongest and most logically consistant.< Guess where Ernest got his stuff. My library. I used to run the Mormon Underground Press. Do you know what happened to Gordon or Lynn? Robert. Subject: Re: FYI-Fundy stuff Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:07:16 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" References: 1 Gordon married Angela after Ernest passed away. He and his families live in Draper. Cheers, JSW ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw Cc: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown] Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 2:33 AM Subject: FYI-Fundy stuff > Message text written by Ken Shaw > >I've got through alot of changes since those Grandpa's Books days, but > those > experiences have shaped my life forever. Of all the explanations of what > the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack > interpretation > still stands up as the strongest and most logically consistant.< > > Guess where Ernest got his stuff. My library. I used to run the Mormon > Underground Press. Do you know what happened to Gordon or Lynn? > > Robert. > Subject: Re: "Universal Sufism" Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:02:25 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com Ken, Yasher koiach! Yankel Ken Shaw wrote: > > Yakov, > > The more I learn the more impressed I am with the reliability > of the Biblical record. I was led to this point by my wondering > who Melchezedik was and why Abraham payed tithes to him. This implies > the existence of a universal "Noachide" tradition that is the diffusion > point of all religions both east and west. The Talmud identifies > Melchezedik as Shem, the son of Noah, who establish a "Yeshiva" to > transmit the antedeluvian science to the post-flood world. > > Ken Shaw > > > > Ken -- > > > > Thanks. What I'd like to do is wait until you've subscribed to the > > Donmeh to post your review so that if it stimulates any discussion, > > you'll be there to join it. > > > > Incidently, I particularly like what you have to say about Moses and > > Jethro, and hope you'll bring that perspective to our discussions. It's > > interesting, don't you think, that the Midianites were descended from > > Midian, one of the sons of Ketura by Abraham, to whom the latter gave > > "pngts" (Talmud = esoteric knowledge) and sent off as missionaries for > > his new religion of El Shaddi to the "East countries." (Gen. 25:1-6) > > > > Kol tuv, > > > > Yakov Leib haKohain, Ph.D. > > Personal Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Yakov.htm > > Donmeh Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Donmeh.htm > > Donmeh Index http://members.xoom.com/donmeh/ > > > > > > Ken Shaw wrote: > > > > > > Yakov, > > > > > > Please feel free to use the review in anyway you wish. > > > > > > I'll get myself subscribed to the Donmeh list, thanks for > > > the heads-up. > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > Ken -- > > > > > > > > This is really a good review. Would you mind if I forward it to my own > > > > list, The Donmeh of the Internet? We're a virtual community of over 300 > > > > scholars and students of the relationship between Jewish and Islamic > > > > mysticism, particularly as configured by the 17th century Jewish mystic > > > > Sabbatai Zevi and his chief exegete, Nathan of Gaza. > > > > > > > > You might want to check out the Donmeh for yourself. We have many > > > > members who are Sufis, including a large number of Ismailis, members of > > > > the Donmeh in Turkey, and even one Orthodox Jewish man in Israel who is > > > > working there for peace between Muslims and Jews through their common > > > > mystical practices. > > > > > > > > Raising up the Holy Sparks together, > > > > > > > > Yakov Leib haKohain, Ph.D. > > > > > > > > Personal Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Yakov.htm > > > > Donmeh Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Donmeh.htm > > > > Donmeh Index http://members.xoom.com/donmeh/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken Shaw wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Partial review of > > > > > > > > > > "Universal Sufism" > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > Dr. H. J. Witteveen > > > > > > > > > > The author of "Universal Sufism", Dr. H. J. Witteveen, grew up in a > > > > > family that was deeply involved with the work of Hazrat Inayat Khan, > > > > > an Indian classical musician and Sufi who attempted to introduce > > > > > Sufism into the West in the first years of this century. > > > > > > > > > > The pupose of the book is to present an introduction and overview of > > > > > both Sufism and the life and work of Hazrat Inayat Khan. > > > > > > > > > > Chapter One: The History and Origin of Sufism > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Witteveen takes the position that Sufism is a living continuation > > > > > of the religious tradition of Ancient Egypt, especially the tradition > > > > > of Toth-Hermes who became known as Hermes Trismegistus in Hellenistic > > > > > times. He sees Dhul-Nun al-Misti as the connecting link between Islamic > > > > > Sufism and the Hermetic tradition of Hellenistic Egypt. He quotes > > > > > Hazrat Inayat Khan as saying that Abraham built the Kaaba after his > > > > > time in Egypt, and that Abraham concentrated his inner force into the > > > > > Black Stone of the Kaaba as a memorial of the training he had recieved > > > > > in Egypt. > > > > > > > > > > Dhul-Nun is of special interest to people in the West because he is the > > > > > founder of the Sufi school called "The Builders" which was the inspiration > > > > > of the Masonic Lodges of Europe. Dhul-Nun is said to have learned to read > > > > > the Egyptian Hieroglyphs by means of the special insight he devolped by the > > > > > diciplines of the Path. > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Witteveen sees the next key figure in the development of Sufism to be > > > > > in Persia by Shihabuddin Yahya al-Suhrawardi. Suhrawardi worked out a Zoroastrianism, > > > > > Neoplatonism and Buddhism. > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Witteveen notes the importance of Moses and Jesus in Persian Sufism, > > > > > Moses being mentioned as often as Krishna is in Hinduism. He sees the > > > > > Jesus as the main influence on the next key figure in the development of > > > > > Sufism, Mansur al-Hallaj. Al-Hallaj proclaimed the "Sufi Secret" openly > > > > > in public, and it cost him his life. He understood what Jesus meant when > > > > > He said "whoever has seen Me has seen the Father" and "the Father and I are > > > > > one". Sufism understands "The Father" to be "The-Whole-of-Existence-Itself" > > > > > which is a single living being. In this view, "God" is the only "Being" that > > > > > exists at all, and the various orders of "individual" organisms are like minute > > > > > "reflections" of that Absolute Self in the ripples of Space-Time. Each one > > > > > of us is like a "Holographic Projection" of that One Self, our experience of > > > > > "seperatness" coming from our identification with the electro-chemical organic > > > > > machine which is picking up our conciousness like a radio station. > > > > > > > > > > Jesus followed a Path that allowed Him to "Realize the Self" and awaken to > > > > > His true identity, the One Absolute Self who is God. It was like a person > > > > > in a dream realizing that he is in a dream and becoming fully conscious in > > > > > that dream. He is both the "dreamer" of the dream and one of the characters > > > > > in the dream, but he realizes the truth of both the "waking world" and the > > > > > "dreaming world" he is in. > > > > > > > > > > The first followers of Jesus refered to what they were doing as "The Way", > > > > > and they understood "the Way" to be a tradition of "inner development" that > > > > > went back to the begining of man's presence on Earth. The Sufis believe > > > > > that they are following this very same Way. Al-Hallaj began to announce > > > > > his own awakening to his friends in no uncertain terms when he said to them: > > > > > > > > > > "Ana' al Haqq" -- "I Am The Truth" > > > > > > > > > > The word got out that Al-Hallaj was proclaiming that he was God, and the > > > > > orthodox religious authorities of Baghdad had him arrested. He was eventualy > > > > > crucified and dismembered for his "crime", but his passion changed the course permanent > > > > > feature of Islamic life. > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Witteveen points out that later Beyazid Bastami was able to proclaim > > > > > "Glory to Me" and come to no harm, because Al-Hallaj had forced Islamic > > > > > civilization to come to terms with the paradoxes of mystical realization. > > > > > > > > > > He points out the importance of the city of Balkh in Turkistan for its > > > > > ancient connections to Buddhism and Yoga from India. Balkh is the birthplace > > > > > of "sober" Sufism which places more emphasis on silent concentration and > > > > > psychological insight than on the more outwardly "religious" forms of devotion. > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Witteveen finishes this chapter with the introduction of Sufism into > > > > > India, where it began to bridge the gulf between Islam and Hinduism and > > > > > heal some of the deep wounds that seperated the two communities. The Hindu > > > > > sages and yogis could see eye-to-eye with the Sufis and embrace them as > > > > > brethren, and the tombs of Sufi saints are revered as much by Hindus as they > > > > > are by Muslims in India. > > > > > > > > > > My only real problem with this brief overview of Sufi history is that it > > > > > never mentions Muhammed or the tradition that has survived among the Arabs > > > > > since the days of Abraham. Moses went to Jethro, "Priest of the Midianites" > > > > > in the Arabian desert to find shelter and a new direction for his life. > > > > > > > > > > The Midianites were a fierce Bedouin people who had lived in the Arabian > > > > > peninsula since the time of Abraham their father. They lived in deep > > > > > devotion to the God of their father Abraham, "Yahu Saboath" (Yahu of Warriors), > > > > > and it was while with Jethro that Moses met the God of Abraham who called > > > > > Himself "Yahue" (Eternal) and "Hayah" (I Am). The Midianite Arabs had kept > > > > > the living contact with the God a Abraham alive, and it was from them that > > > > > Moses got the key to his own Prophetic mission. There is a whole story to > > > > > be learned about how Jethro came to Moses and the Israelites after the Exodus > > > > > and taught Moses how to be a tribal Chief. The decendants of Jethro accompanied > > > > > the Camp of Israel from then on and kept alive thier secret tribal > > > > > > > > > > These decendants of Jethro where later known as the Rechabites in the Land > > > > > of Israel, where they kept alive their ancient Abrahamic Bedouine lifestyle, > > > > > never touching wine or cutting their hair or beards. It was from them that > > > > > the tradition of the "Nazarite" came, which came from the word "Netzerim" > > > > > which means "Keepers of Secrets". The decendants of Jethro, the Rechabites, > > > > > where the "Keepers of Secrets" that kept the ancient Abrahamic mysteries > > > > > alive and functioning until the coming of Jesus and his brother James the Just. > > > > > > > > > > So Sufism ISN'T just an amalgam of various streams of esotericism from > > > > > Egypt to India, it is the true core of the whole Biblical tradition that > > > > > comes down from Adam to Seth to Enoch to Noah to Melchezidek to Abraham to > > > > > Moses to Jesus to Muhammed. > > > > > > > > > > Kenneth Shaw

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