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Subject:
More poem
Date:
Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:40:30 -0500 (CDT)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
enoch144@eagle-net.org, kathleen@enol.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, proclus@mac.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
jswick@cris.com, black@accex.net
CC:
Student007@msn.com
Existentialist poetry is useless,
Produced from the false mechanical "I",
It's images are empty and baseless,
And no help at all when it's time to die.
"Individualism" builds the lower "I".
It teaches men to be thoughtless and cold,
But when death comes leaves them high-and-dry,
The secret of their life is left untold.
***************************************
The angel's hearts are soaked in tranquil hope.
Evolution is pulled towards a goal,
Man's promise is plain when seen from that scope,
But lower senses blind him to the whole.
The final secret is revealed to Man,
When he makes the inner and outer one,
And takes his place in evolution's plan.
Attachments will hide this phenomenon.
Desires will blindfold the eye of the heart,
And dress up idols for the outer eyes.
All thoughts are useless no matter how smart,
Unless they help to calm and harmonize.
Subject:
Re: mutant busnusy stuff
Date:
Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:02:27 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
References:
1
The latest version of The Radical Mormon is online. I added Affirmation
and LDSworld to the sidebar. Mormon News is gone. Here's the link.
If you have any stories or links, please post them.
I still haven't heard back from any of the the other news publishers
yet.
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Secretum secretorum
Date:
Fri, 28 May 1999 01:02:53 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man , Ken Shaw ,
Enoch Shemna
FYI, Secretum Secretorum has moved to a new location. Here's the
link.
http://www.neaccess.net/~jbgenest/secretum/index.html
Regards,
proclus
Subject:
2nd pass on poem
Date:
Fri, 28 May 1999 10:58:52 -0500 (CDT)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com
The begining of an interpretation of
The Psalm of the Gods
By
Molana-al-Moazam Hazrat Shah
Maghsoud Sadegh-ibn-Mohammed Angha
A being created by God named Sadegh,
Son of Lord Mir Ghotbeddin Mohammed,
Son of Lord Djalaleddin Ali Mir Abolfazl Angha,
Tells his vision of humanity's past.
In past ages men's souls were pure and clear,
The seed point in the heart a source of life,
Higher Love played music that all could hear,
Their existence was free from greed or strife,
No place was found for ugliness of soul,
Actions grew out of compassion and care,
Clear and free from the part to the whole,
Their hearts secure in natural prayer.
Death threw a much smaller shadow on men,
The heart had no room for the poison seed,
Their minds didn't form empty images then,
The Light of Truth fulfilled every need.
Calm hearts full of tenderness waited,
Through the dead of night until the dawn,
The Sons of Man to be initiated,
To the door between worlds they were drawn.
The Highest Truth appeared in human form,
Whispering His song to the Sons of Man,
The sound of His singing was soft and warm,
His song "The Psalm of the Gods" began:
*****************************************
Souls are part of God and inside of God,
Existence itself is a form of Him.
He sees what men do to serve or defraud,
His Presence fills all right up to the brim.
His light cuts through every secret unsaid,
The good are raised up and the evil put down.
The living don't see the state of the dead.
The evil will fight and grasp till they drown.
Mankind has fallen from its peaceful place,
Men willfully walk in their own dark way.
The Earth does nothing to harm or debase,
Greed and desire have pulled men astray.
The wicked huddle together for fear,
Inwardly knowing the evil they've done.
The poor live lives that are plain and austere,
But inwardly rich in beauty and fun.
They live each moment in total presence,
Not grasping at anything coming next.
A man's life-force leaks out through negligence,
Always distracted by money and sex.
Man's greedy desires are never fulfilled,
Straining at pleasure he gets only death,
Sucking in nothing but poison distilled,
Desperately weeping he leaks out his breath.
Gravediggers get paid for digging a grave,
The lives of the greedy are much the same,
Starting as master but ending as slave,
Choking in terror and twisting in shame.
The grasping stare like a jealous child,
Angry at pleasure that others may get.
Punishment grows out of desire gone wild,
The violent are held back only by threat.
A man's inner torment springs from remorse,
Inner witness of his own ugly deeds.
Mental images are empty and coarse,
Blinding and choking like poisonous weeds.
Men kill themselves by polluting their hearts,
They can't share a home with a rotting corpse.
A coward finds safety in lawyer's arts,
Protections for the poor he slyly warps.
The young and simple are as food to him,
Yet he sees himself as a superman.
Nimrod imagines himself in a hymn,
But really he's just a flash in the pan.
Law has been warped by Nietzsche and Marx,
Their inner demons set loose on the earth,
Cutting men free to be food for the sharks,
The people reduced to what they are worth.
Decaying old doctrines sprout out new growth,
Blinding the poor to their natural right.
The Real Man repents with a secret oath,
And walks as led by the true inner light.
Subject:
What kind of Mormon are you?
Date:
Thu, 03 Jun 1999 18:58:04 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
Don't forget to visit Radical and take the new poll. You will find it
under the new Nazi Mormons story.
I got to thinking about this question, and I went back and added "open
source mormon" to the list. I voted for it. You can add things to the
list too. Just go to the poll and add whatever you want. Afterall, you
can be any kind of Mormon that you want to be. Vote as many times as
you want. There are no cookies.
What is an "open source mormon"? I had some conversations with Dave,
off list, who helped me realize that we have a hidden assumption in the
FAQ. The idea of open source makes it explicit. It is simply this;
No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot
be usurped. No corporation can trademark a
human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs
to our dead ancestors, and through them, it
belongs to every one of us. The affirmation
of our Mormonism validates their hopes.
We are the heritors of the family and
generation of God.
Furthermore, our path to God is our own responsibility and no one
elses. We can use public knowledge and alternative religious systems,
such as Wilson, Leary, and Campbell to become more godlike, and explore
the divine mind. Even as some of us leave the Church, we become more
Mormon, not less.
Finally, our heretage should not be locked away in private archives, but
rather it should be freely available to all. It should not be occulted
behind a brand. We cannot fulfill our potential without it.
Open Source is a techie analogy for all of this. Intrepid open source
developers do not wait for the authorities to empower them. They go out
and write the code themselves. They are engines of progress, and they
make their code available to others. On the other side are the stuffy
proprietary developers, who want everyone channeled into the trademarked
options which have been chosen for them. The code is proscripted.
Progress is limited to the selected options.
Is this clear? I think that Ken is a good example of this open source
tendency in radical mormons. He is a seeker, and has searched all the
worlds systems for the keys that would lead him closer to God. He has
asiduously exploited those keys towards his own progress. He didn't
wait for any authority to give him permission.
I could say similar things about many of the rest of you, promethean
titans all.
What do you think?
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: What kind of Mormon are you?
Date:
Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:50:33 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Dave Combe
To:
proclus ,
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
Our exchange was off list because it was off list.
Feel free to send the last post, which has the entire
conversation, to everyone. If you don't have it, with
your permission, I'll send it.
Dave
--- proclus wrote:
> Don't forget to visit Radical and take the new poll.
> You will find it
> under the new Nazi Mormons story.
>
> I got to thinking about this question, and I went
> back and added "open
> source mormon" to the list. I voted for it. You
> can add things to the
> list too. Just go to the poll and add whatever you
> want. Afterall, you
> can be any kind of Mormon that you want to be. Vote
> as many times as
> you want. There are no cookies.
>
> What is an "open source mormon"? I had some
> conversations with Dave,
> off list, who helped me realize that we have a
> hidden assumption in the
> FAQ. The idea of open source makes it explicit. It
> is simply this;
>
> No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot
> be usurped. No corporation can trademark a
> human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs
> to our dead ancestors, and through them, it
> belongs to every one of us. The affirmation
> of our Mormonism validates their hopes.
> We are the heritors of the family and
> generation of God.
>
> Furthermore, our path to God is our own
> responsibility and no one
> elses. We can use public knowledge and alternative
> religious systems,
> such as Wilson, Leary, and Campbell to become more
> godlike, and explore
> the divine mind. Even as some of us leave the
> Church, we become more
> Mormon, not less.
>
> Finally, our heretage should not be locked away in
> private archives, but
> rather it should be freely available to all. It
> should not be occulted
> behind a brand. We cannot fulfill our potential
> without it.
>
> Open Source is a techie analogy for all of this.
> Intrepid open source
> developers do not wait for the authorities to
> empower them. They go out
> and write the code themselves. They are engines of
> progress, and they
> make their code available to others. On the other
> side are the stuffy
> proprietary developers, who want everyone channeled
> into the trademarked
> options which have been chosen for them. The code
> is proscripted.
> Progress is limited to the selected options.
>
> Is this clear? I think that Ken is a good example
> of this open source
> tendency in radical mormons. He is a seeker, and
> has searched all the
> worlds systems for the keys that would lead him
> closer to God. He has
> asiduously exploited those keys towards his own
> progress. He didn't
> wait for any authority to give him permission.
>
> I could say similar things about many of the rest of
> you, promethean
> titans all.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> proclus
>
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm!
> http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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>
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Dave Combe wrote:
>
> Our exchange was off list because it was off list.
> Feel free to send the last post, which has the entire
> conversation, to everyone. If you don't have it, with
> your permission, I'll send it.
That would be great. Here it is.
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: mutant busnusy stuff
Date:
Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Dave Combe
To:
proclus@mac.com
I wasn't offended. Al and I (old friends) are the
most silent of the mutants. Andy and I talk regularly,
and from here, I introduced him to q-saints, a e-mail
list for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered
mormonos or ex-mormons, as the case may be. I have
also corresponded with Joe Swick for several years,
meeting him when I was on mormon history lists.
As I become more and more unattached as a mormon, I
finsd that I post less and less on thee various
liberal/radical lists I remain on. Besides this list,
I am on a private list for mormon/exmormon feminists,
a private list of men whose wives or, in my case,
ex-wife, is more orthodox then they, a small list of
self-selected folks that associate together with
intellectuals [;-)], and a very interesting list that
was put together by two people who wanted some of
their favorite people to get to know one another.
Remarkably, of the 25 people selected for that list,
not one has ever left, and there have now been six
[!!] marriages among the 25 people, near 50%.
Remarkable.
I have left all public lists, including mormon-l, the
history lists, the AML list, and thee various others
that I have been on over thee past 10 years.
I was disfellowshipped in the fall of 1997, and had my
name removed in May of 1998. And though I attend the
Episcopal church now, I consider myself mormon, and am
far more believing then most of the people on the
lists that I am still a member of.
It's so funny how things work out.
I rarely post here, but I learn much. Probably the
most mutant thing I have out there is my essay/paper
that I delivered at Sunstone two summers ago, and
which resides on Al's page. That someone like Joe
Swick would write me to congratulate me on my paper
and and take it seriously and ask hard, good
questions, is honor enough for any mutant.
I am active in Affirmation, and in Gamofites, the
organization for gay mormon and ex-mormon fathers. If
I have any "calling" or vocation, it is there, in
Gamofites. It was there that I finally felt understood
by these men, who, when I was depressed, and even
suicidal, saved my life as literally as it can be
done. And I stand there, with my fellow Gamofites to
support the next one and the next one, as they come
out and find themselves in deep places as they
struggle with their realities and the church and the
most difficult of choices that dark and lonely place
presents.
Dave
--- Michael Love wrote:
> Thanks Dave. It is nice to hear from you. Being
> old
> friends with Andy, I was aware of your concern.
> Actually, I think that there are at least 3
> non-heteros on the list.
>
> I hope that you don't mind my toying with the
> subject
> a little. It is a fact that the list is not 100%
> pro-gay rights. I was hoping to out any opposition
> to putting mormon gay news links in The Radical
> Mormon. If there is a problem with that, we need to
> deal with it. I unswervingly maintain the ideal of
> consensus in the circle. Too me, it brings holiness
> to everything that we do.
>
> I will proceed with exploring and implementing the
> links, if there is no opposition. Personally, I
> think that it is a great idea. Thanks to Andy for
> that, and Kathleen has also reminded me of the
> correct address for Affirmation ;-}.
>
> I hope that you don't think that you are getting
> more
> than you bargained for here. Bear with me, and I
> will unload abit more.
>
> I'll admit to being a little ambivalent about gay
> issues myself. My wife and kids say that I am too
> conservative on this subject. But I consider that I
> am much more open minded than I was raised to be,
> than I was ever expected to be. Living in the
> Boston
> area has been helpful in this regard. Believe it or
> not, I am following the tolerant example of church
> leaders that I love and respect. Despite my
> ambivalence, I am excited about the prospects of
> adding this important subject to the The Radical
> Mormon.
>
> Please understand that I have always been proud to
> have you in the mutantRMs. I hope that I have not
> offended you in any way. I admire your work, and I
> hope that we can be allies, as radical mormon
> brothers. Please feel free to email me personally
> any time, regarding anything.
>
> Best Regards,
> proclus
>
> By the way, I am away from home for the weekend. I
> don't have my address book, so I can't forward this
> to Andy. Please feel free to discuss any of this
> message with him as well.
>
>
>
>
> ===
> Visit proclus' realm!
> http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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>
>
>
>
> ---Dave Combe wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > There is at least one gay member of this list (me)
> and
> > at least one bi member of this list.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > --- proclus wrote:
> > > several items
> > > ---------
> > >
> > > I'm still waiting on the new guy. He has to
> check
> > > off on the FAQ. You
> > > know the drill ;-}. I am happy that it takes
> more
> > > than a click of the
> > > mouse to join this wonderful group.
> > >
> > > Are any of you subscribed to Mormon News? I
> > > subscribed to the mailing
> > > list, but I haven't received anything yet. They
> do
> > > have some good
> > > stories that are pretty fresh. It appears that
> they
> > > are doing something
> > > similar to what we are trying to do in The
> Radical
> > > Mormon.
> > >
> > > Deseret Church news is another matter. I
> haven't
> > > heard back from them
> > > yet, which is good news, I think. Whatever you
> > > think of them, it would
> > > be great, if they opened up their features to
> us.
> > > Now THAT would be
> > > news. I wonder if they'll offer us a deal or
> free
> > > samples. Maybe
> > > they'll even do a story on fringe mormon
> websites
> > > (alternative mormon?,
> > > unofficial?). Hey, I can dream, can't I?
> > >
> > > I've been doing more research on the "radical
> > > mormon" terminology, with
> > > respect to our new publication. It seems that
> the
> > > mormon gay community
> > > has many early adopters of the term "radical
> > > mormon". I think we need
> > > to discuss this. ;-} I understand that not
> everyone
> > > here will be
> > > uniformly pleased by this news.
> > >
> > > I definitely think that we should list some
> mormon
> > > gay news items, if
> > > there is such a thingy. in the side bar of the
> > > Radical. That can't
> > > hurt, no? Isn't there a site called Affirmation
> or
> > > something like that?
> > > ;-}
> > >
> > > I finally got the table tags right. I spied on
> > > Slashdot's code!
> > > Everything is lined up at the top now. Please
> keep
> > > the suggestions
> > > coming!
> > >
> > > Best Regards to you All,
> > > proclus
> > >
> > > --
> > > Visit proclus' realm!
> > > http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> W++
> > > N- !o K- w--- !O M++
> > > V--
> > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI
> D- G
> > > e++>++++ h---
> > > r+++ y++++
> > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> > >
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Subject:
Re: mutant busnusy stuff
Date:
Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:14:03 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Dave Combe ,
proclus
References:
1
Dave Combe wrote:
>
> I wasn't offended.
That's cool ;-}
Al and I (old friends) are the
> most silent of the mutants. Andy and I talk regularly,
> and from here,
Actually, there is quite abit of this kind of thing going on along the
perimeter of the circle. I think that it is sometimes hidden from me.
I don't mind. In fact, I would encourage it if I could. We are all
busy and anxiously engaged. It is perfectly fine when mutantRMs is
tangential to some of our interests. We bring more to the circle that
way.
> As I become more and more unattached as a mormon, I
> finsd that I post less and less on thee various
> liberal/radical lists I remain on. Besides this list,
> I am on a private list for mormon/exmormon feminists,
> a private list of men whose wives or, in my case,
> ex-wife, is more orthodox then they, a small list of
> self-selected folks that associate together with
> intellectuals [;-)], and a very interesting list that
> was put together by two people who wanted some of
> their favorite people to get to know one another.
> Remarkably, of the 25 people selected for that list,
> not one has ever left, and there have now been six
> [!!] marriages among the 25 people, near 50%.
> Remarkable.
That sounds like some pretty interesting groups. I hope that you feel
free to cross post once in a while, when it seems appropriate. One of
the things I am trying to do with The Radical Mormon is to bring
together some diverse groups which can share in radical mormonism. We
have a common center. It's in the FAQ. ;-} Perhaps you could post a
link in some of your other groups.
> I have left all public lists, including mormon-l, the
> history lists, the AML list, and thee various others
> that I have been on over thee past 10 years.
.
.
.
> I rarely post here, but I learn much. Probably the
> most mutant thing I have out there is my essay/paper
> that I delivered at Sunstone two summers ago, and
> which resides on Al's page. That someone like Joe
> Swick would write me to congratulate me on my paper
> and and take it seriously and ask hard, good
> questions, is honor enough for any mutant.
I feel honored all the time to be associated with the mutantRMs. You
know, when I feel disconnected and spaced out, mutantRM's is one of the
things that my mind always snaps back to, especially Ken. It is part of
my human connection. Most people need to feel that they belong to an
elite corp once in a while. Every one of the mutants is illustrious is
some way. We are all connected.
> I was disfellowshipped in the fall of 1997, and had my
> name removed in May of 1998. And though I attend the
> Episcopal church now, I consider myself mormon, and am
> far more believing then most of the people on the
> lists that I am still a member of.
>
> It's so funny how things work out.
Of course, it is one of the unspoken assumptions that no one owns
Mormonism. Our genes cannot be usurped. No corporation can trademark a
human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs to our dead ancestors, and
through them, it belongs to every one of us. The affirmation of our
Mormonism validates their hopes. We are the heritors of the family of
God.
> I am active in Affirmation,
I sent them a little announcement, when I added them to The Radical
Mormon. It will be interesting to see if we hear back from anyone about
this. Traffic at the website is still a thin trickle.
and in Gamofites, the
> organization for gay mormon and ex-mormon fathers. If
> I have any "calling" or vocation, it is there, in
> Gamofites. It was there that I finally felt understood
> by these men, who, when I was depressed, and even
> suicidal, saved my life as literally as it can be
> done. And I stand there, with my fellow Gamofites to
> support the next one and the next one, as they come
> out and find themselves in deep places as they
> struggle with their realities and the church and the
> most difficult of choices that dark and lonely place
> presents.
Like I said, I admire your work. Thanks for being there.
Regards,
proclus
> Dave
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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What kind of Mutants are we?
Date:
Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:22:08 -0400 (EDT)
From:
onandagus@webtv.net (Don Bradley)
To:
proclus@mac.com (proclus)
CC:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com (Andy Mcguire),
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com (ArtdeHoyos),
ariel144@hotmail.com (Beth any), comdb@yahoo.com (Dave),
enoch144@eagle-net.org (Enoch Shemna),
jswick@cris.com (Joe Steve Swick III),
kathleen@enol.com (Kathleen McGuire),
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw),
shirtail@cyberhighway.net (Kerry Shirts),
mpierce@switchsoft.com (Michael J. Pierce),
proclus@mac.com (proclus),
trent@goodnet.com (R. Trent Reynolds),
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu (Randall Shortridge),
black@accex.net (Robert R. Black), rpcman@hotmail.com (rpc man)
Michael and Mutants,
I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on
it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on
here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical
Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined. So far as I have been
able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in
receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has
a strong interest in the esoteric.
Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I
find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to
the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But,
obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical
Mormonism." This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your
vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had
thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your
wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them?
BTW, Dave, do you know Bob Woolley? And what was this paper Joe Swick
commented on?
Don Bradley
Subject:
Re: What kind of Mutants are we?
Date:
Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:38:08 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
" M i c h a el J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man ,
Ken Shaw ,
Enoch Shemna
References:
1
Don Bradley wrote:
> Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I
> find myself asking, "Why?"
Don, I will try and respond to your question later tonight.
I just want to ask everyone to please go and check out the
affirmation stories before we start this debate. I think
that they are nice liberal mormon news, quite apart from
the gay issue. I also think that they will attract traffic
to the site.
Then, compare the affirmation stories to the other news items
in the sidebar. We have a balanced representation of the
diverse mormon presence on the web. This includes the
center, as well as wacko and far-out mormon sites.
Affirmation only adds to that balance. I was very impressed
with the quality of their journalism.
It was a pleasure to compile this diverse list of Mormon sites
from our very own open source, the mutantRM archive. Again, please go
and check
it out, before adding input to the debate.
Regards and More Later,
proclus
Don Bradley wrote:
>
> Michael and Mutants,
>
> I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on
> it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on
> here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical
> Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined. So far as I have been
> able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in
> receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has
> a strong interest in the esoteric.
>
> Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I
> find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to
> the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But,
> obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical
> Mormonism." This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your
> vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had
> thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your
> wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them?
>
> BTW, Dave, do you know Bob Woolley? And what was this paper Joe Swick
> commented on?
>
> Don Bradley
--
Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: What kind of Mormon are you?
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:54:22 -0500 (CDT)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com
CC:
Student007@msn.com
Proclus,
"No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot
be usurped. No corporation can trademark a
human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs
to our dead ancestors, and through them, it
belongs to every one of us. The affirmation
of our Mormonism validates their hopes.
We are the heritors of the family and
generation of God."
This last post was so right-on that I gota' say "AMEN"!
Our own flesh and blood laid down their lives and fortunes
to follow the collective revelation called "Mormonism".
"Mormonism" belongs to the people, not to those men who've
happened to have seized the Real Estate.
>>"Open Source is a techie analogy for all of this. Intrepid open source
>>developers do not wait for the authorities to empower them. They go out
>>and write the code themselves. They are engines of progress, and they
>>make their code available to others. On the other side are the stuffy
>>proprietary developers, who want everyone channeled into the trademarked
>>options which have been chosen for them. The code is proscripted.
>>Progress is limited to the selected options."
This is realy what I was getting at when I suggested the "Mormon Radical"
catagory to begin with...going beyond "Fundamentalism" by back to the "Root"
(radix) that Joseph spang from. Joseph was selected at an early age to be
trained by the mysterious Luman Walters, who was some kind of "esotericist"
who had traveled in Europe. "The Magus" had been in people's hands for a long
time, but it was Joseph Smith who was able to "get results"with it. Why?
It is this kind of circumstantial wierdness that convinced me that "Mormonism"
was a "project" of some kind, intended to produce a specific impact on a
specific "people, place and time".
Ken Shaw
Subject:
Re: What kind of Mutants are we?
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:29:48 -0500 (CDT)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
proclus@mac.com, onandagus@webtv.net
CC:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net,
rpcman@hotmail.com
Hail Mutants,
This question of sexuality has been central to the "Mormon" enterprise
from the begining. In Islam it is taught that Shaitan hates humanity
out of jealousy of their capacity for horniness....Shaitan is impotent.
A close study of historical Gnosticism shows that Jesus trancended all
catagories, including gender. The Siberian Shaman wears womens cloths
when shamanizing because of appoaching "Power" disolves all boundries.
The Nabis (prophets) of Yahu ("Jehovah") would sometimes go naked in
public for years and then move in with a prostitute to father children
for Yahu.
My quess is that as consciouness approaches "singularity"...everything becomes
everything, and sexuality becomes a kind of "omnisexuality".
Ken Shaw
>
> Michael and Mutants,
>
> I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on
> it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on
> here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical
> Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined. So far as I have been
> able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in
> receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has
> a strong interest in the esoteric.
>
> Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I
> find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to
> the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But,
> obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical
> Mormonism." This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your
> vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had
> thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your
> wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them?
>
> BTW, Dave, do you know Bob Woolley? And what was this paper Joe Swick
> commented on?
>
> Don Bradley
>
>
Subject:
Re: What kind of Mutants are we?
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:28:37 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man ,
Ken Shaw ,
Enoch Shemna
References:
1
Ken Shaw wrote:
>
> Hail Mutants,
>
> This question of sexuality has been central to the "Mormon" enterprise
>
and this
>
> My quess is that as consciouness approaches "singularity"...everything becomes
> everything, and sexuality becomes a kind of "omnisexuality".
Just ask yourself, was God being unfaithful to his consort, when he
created a beautiful woman? Was he being homosexual, when he created a
beautiful man? The answer may illustrate the nature of this
"omnisexuality".
"Mormonism can encompass the most radical thought that I can think."
When we say we are the generation of God, we are not singing a Who song
;-}. It is literal.
Here is another poll. In the Kerry Shirts stylie, I will fill it in.
I am;
[*] heterosexual
[*] homosexual
[*] virgin
[*] whore
Regards,
proclus
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Gurdjieff and Sufis
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:29:53 -0500 (CDT)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com,
kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net,
rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org
Dear Chaverim,
Yakov Leib wrote in part:
>I have long been curious about the fascinating work of Gurdjieff and
>Ouspensky, but know next to nothing about them. If someone else does,
>would they be willing to write one or two articles about theirteachings
>as they apply to Kabbalah and, if possible, the theosophy of Sabbatian
>Kabbalah in particular?
May I offer the following, written from memory after some 10 or more
years since I last looked into this topic.
The late John Bennett (a Kings College, Wimbledon-educated military man)
was also a pupil of Gurdjieff, and has written several accounts of the
origins of Gurdjieff's work and of working under Gurdjieff. All very
fascinating reading. Gurdjieff himself wrote amazingly little, but is
well known for one work in particular, "Beelzebub's Tales to his
Grandson", an apparently allegorical (and teaching) work, a copy of
which I have in my possession.
John Bennett tried to identify the source of Gurdjieff's learning, but
seems not to have come up with completely concrete answers, although
Tibetan Buddhism, Mevlevi Darwish(ism) and Naqshbandi Sufism figure
largely in his hypothesis. Gurdjieff (an Armenian or Georgian by birth,
I think) was an immensely travelled person, including India, Tibet and
much of Asia Minor before and around 1900. Subsequently to these
travels, he went to Moscow, established a 'school' and later established
a link with Ouspensky.
These two later fell out on some matter, and Gurdjieff moved his
'school' to Fontainebleu, near Paris, where he remained until he died
(1951 I think). Ouspensky went to America. My simplistic impression is
that Gurdjieff's method was a 'fluid' type, as opposed to a more
'scientific' method favoured by Ouspensky. Certainly, from my reading of
the matter, and discussion with some former pupils, there do seem to be
definite links with Sufi methods and objectives, but I feel his
teachings are certainly what might be described as a collection of 'pick
and mix' varieties. Dance, enneagram-based science, meditation and hard
physical work were inter-twined in Gurdjieff's teachings towards the
task of 'dieing before you die'....the merging of the soul with the
absolute in one's own lifetime.
John Lerwill
YAKOV LEIB REPLIES:
Dear Chaver John,
At the risk of putting you on the spot (which I really don't mean to do)
let me ask a favor: if you have a scanner, could you scan "Beelzebub's
Tales to his Grandson" and send it to me at amirah@earthlink.net in jpeg
format? I would then forward it to the Donmeh in a series of shorter
posts from you.
Subject:
Re: Gurdjieff and Sufis
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:53:14 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man ,
Ken Shaw ,
Enoch Shemna
References:
1
Ken Shaw wrote:
> YAKOV LEIB REPLIES:
>
> Dear Chaver John,
>
> At the risk of putting you on the spot (which I really don't mean to do)
> let me ask a favor: if you have a scanner, could you scan "Beelzebub's
> Tales to his Grandson" and send it to me at amirah@earthlink.net in jpeg
> format? I would then forward it to the Donmeh in a series of shorter
> posts from you.
Whoa! I was shocked to read the statement from YAKOV LEIB. Beelzebub
is three novel length books. It is a fine read, but posting the whole
thing in jpeg would be arduous to the point of impossible.
I liked the Lerwill's story. Still, I'm a little skeptical that the
scientific bent of Gurdjieff came to us only as filtered through
Ouspensky. I could come up with arguments from Beelzebub against this
hypothesis, I think.
I also loved Twain's Tales from Earth, and consider it in the same vein
as Beelzebub.
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: What kind of Mormon are you?
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:29:06 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
rpc man
> Proclus,
>
>
> "No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot
> be usurped. No corporation can trademark a
> human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs
> to our dead ancestors, and through them, it
> belongs to every one of us. The affirmation
> of our Mormonism validates their hopes.
> We are the heritors of the family and
> generation of God."
>
>
> This last post was so right-on that I gota' say "AMEN"!
>
> Our own flesh and blood laid down their lives and fortunes
> to follow the collective revelation called "Mormonism".
>
> "Mormonism" belongs to the people, not to those men who've
> happened to have seized the Real Estate.
Thanx man! Does this mean a change to the FAQ? Are we sure that we
want to go there?
> This is realy what I was getting at when I suggested the "Mormon Radical"
> catagory to begin with...going beyond "Fundamentalism" by back to the "Root"
> (radix) that Joseph spang from. Joseph was selected at an early age to be
> trained by the mysterious Luman Walters, who was some kind of "esotericist"
> who had traveled in Europe. "The Magus" had been in people's hands for a long
> time, but it was Joseph Smith who was able to "get results"with it. Why?
>
> It is this kind of circumstantial wierdness that convinced me that "Mormonism"
> was a "project" of some kind, intended to produce a specific impact on a
> specific "people, place and time".
Hehe, let's root the server! I think we have a need to know. You da'
man!
Regards,
proclus
> Ken Shaw
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
RE: What kind of Mutants are we?
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:25:18 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
> Michael and Mutants,
>
> I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on
> it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on
> here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical
> Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined.
I would have to agree with that. That is one of the reasons I'm trying
to point out an assumption that we haven't made explicit. The only
reason that we can call ourselves radical mormons is because we are
essentially mormons, we own the concept. Anyone who wants to contribute
to the FAQ, please do. We can discuss it, and if we are agreed, we can
change it. We have done it before.
> So far as I have been
> able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in
> receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has
> a strong interest in the esoteric.
That seems too limited to me. The scope of our discussion has been far
wider than that, and it doesn't appear to me to reflect the mutantRM
masthead at all.
Here is an analogy. Have you heard that Hubble Telescope finally laid
its golden egg. Now, we have an accurate Hubble constant. One upshot
is that we now know how big the universe is. With our machine, we can
see the edge of existance, the final curtains. It is as if we had gone
fishing and pulled in the biggest fish of all. We held out our hands
and said, "It's this big." And, we said it accurately. We can have the
number in our heads.
I feel that radical mormonism is an attempt to similarly encompass all
of Mormonism, to peer into the most hidden places.
> Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I
> find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to
> the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But,
> obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical
> Mormonism."
I have tried to address this in a some other posts. It will be
interesting to see if people will still ask this question after checking
the links themselves.
> This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your
> vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had
> thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your
> wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them?
For the Radical; I have tried to explain this in other posts. I see it
as an outer circle for us. We should cast a wide net in the outer
circle. It can be the road to Jericho. MutantRMs can be the eye of the
needle. It was a pleasure for me to compile the sidebar links almost
exclusively from our own discussion archives. They represent the
breadth of diversity that exists in the mormon web community, but I
think that only we could have pulled that off. This should promote
traffic and rare dailogue, eventually. Further, I would like the
Radical to become the definitive mormon news site on the web, news for
the whole community, not just the center or the fringe.
I would like to see some of our interactions moved off the list and into
the outer circle, the Radical. It can be a wonderful tool for us. If
you have news or links, post it to the Radical Mormon public discussion
forum. You can configure it so that it will send you email when there
is a change.
For the List; It is difficult for me to express how I cherish the time
that I have had with each of you. If we disbanded today, I would have a
wealth of good memories, good friends, and more. Now, our relationships
have been a little wordy of late (especially mine!). Small
disagreements should not paralyze our efforts. In the past, I have
always been surprised how we break through stagnation to the next
grade. Let's go to the next grade. We can be more than our words. We
can engage the world in a positive way.
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
RE: Luman Walters
Date:
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:42:09 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
> This is realy what I was getting at when I suggested the "Mormon Radical"
> catagory to begin with...going beyond "Fundamentalism" by back to the "Root"
> (radix) that Joseph spang from. Joseph was selected at an early age to be
> trained by the mysterious Luman Walters, who was some kind of "esotericist"
> who had traveled in Europe. "The Magus" had been in people's hands for a long
> time, but it was Joseph Smith who was able to "get results"with it. Why?
It looks like I'm going to have to take another look at Magus. ;-}
Thanks for the info, Ken!
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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RE: Min the Mormon God
Date:
Sun, 06 Jun 1999 23:49:14 -0600
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Kerry Shirts ,
'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com>
CC:
Joe Steve Swick III , Dave ,
Beth any , Beth ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Andy Mcguire ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
'proclus' ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Ken Shaw , rpc man
Message text written by Kerry Shirts
> our FAIR newsletter "Apologia" next month.<
What FAIR newsletter ? How do we subscribe.
Robert.
The FAIR newsletter is free from the FAIR website. It's called "Apologia".
http://www.fair-lds.org./
Kerry (Sorry so long in responding, been putting our FAIR Conference together for
June 17-19)
Subject:
Re: Min the Mormon God
Date:
Sun, 06 Jun 1999 23:12:39 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Kerry Shirts ,
'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com>
CC:
Dave , Beth any ,
Beth ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Andy Mcguire ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , onandagus@webtv.net,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
'proclus' ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Ken Shaw ,
rpc man
References:
1
I do not appear to have recieved the message which the post below responds
to.
Cheers,
JSW
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerry Shirts
To: Kerry Shirts 'Robert R Black'
?.3365@compuserve.com>
Cc: Joe Steve Swick III Dave Beth any
Beth ArtdeHoyos
Andy Mcguire Randall
Shortridge R. Trent Reynolds
Michael J. Pierce Kathleen
McGuire 'proclus' Enoch Shemna
Ken Shaw rpc man
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 10:49 PM
Subject: RE: Min the Mormon God
>
> Message text written by Kerry Shirts
> > our FAIR newsletter "Apologia" next month.<
>
> What FAIR newsletter ? How do we subscribe.
>
> Robert.
>
> The FAIR newsletter is free from the FAIR website. It's called "Apologia".
>
> http://www.fair-lds.org./
>
> Kerry (Sorry so long in responding, been putting our FAIR Conference
together for June 17-19)
>
>
Subject:
Living Scripture
Date:
Tue, 08 Jun 1999 00:03:20 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" , rpc man
I've been surveying all of the Eagle-net.org links in the Radical
sidebar. I have to recommend Ron Gilchrist's engrossing Living
Scripture. I spent the evening rereading it. I think it was Eleazar
who originally recommended it to me, a while back. Thanks on that. It
is formative and foundational radical mormon stuff, IMHO. This is why I
can say that Mormonism is both "apostate" _and_ "true and living", and
why I insist on people taking personal responsibility for their own
spiritual progress. You cannot rely on institutions, which for the most
part are usurpations and compulsions; whited sepulchres. Here are some
more, somewhat disjoint thoughts on Living Scriptures.
On Moroni 8; Fascinating that Lamanites will be among the Gentiles as
raging lions, no? It seems to me that it would take a miracle, for them
ever to become lionhearted again. This brings many things to mind, from
hippies, to mayan prophets. It seems to be saying that the righteous
will flee an apostasized Church in the latter-days and join with these
scary Lamanites. I remember years ago I found this to be one of the
most confusing scriptures in the canon. It flies in the face of the
infallibility doctrine! How things have changed.
Just one problem. I can't bear indian wardrums! =}
The Nibley quotes about the Nephites handing out endowments to just
anyone who asked were hauntingly frightening. By extension, it suggests
a kind of latter-day desolation of abomination scenario, and a
subsequent cleansing of the sanctuaries. This is truly wierd. I'm
impressed ;-}! It comes down to this question; Are we ripe yet? I
guess not quite yet.
Sorry for the ramble. If _anyone_ has some light to shed on this
subject, it would be greatly appreciated.
Also, check out Kent Steadman's Orbit, which is a vision of beauty. His
glorious infinite universe is quite inspirational.
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Living Scripture
Date:
Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:35:12 -0500 (CDT)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com
CC:
Student007@msn.com
Proclus,
The Book of Mormon itself explicitly says that it was brought forth
to awaken the "Lamanites" to their true identity. It's kind of like
the the same thing that the racist-right "Christian-Identity" idea,
only with brown people instead of white people. 3 NEPHI 21 states
plainly t hat the Book of Mormon wou ld go first to the Gentiles, on
it's way t o t he Lamanites, but that the Gentiles (LDS) would almost
instantly become arrogant racists who would disrespect both the Lamanites
and the Jews. It is then that the "Fullness of the Gospel of the Father"
would be taken from the Gentiles (LDS) and transfered to the "House of
Israel" (Lamanites). Then the Lamanites would become "a Nation born in
a day" and take the land back from the Gentiles in a Holy War (Jihad?).
The pre-Correlation Committee era traditional understanding of this
passage was that a Prophet would be raised up among the Lamanites who
who bring forth the "Sealed Portion" of the Book of mormon, and that
that miraculous event would awaken the Lamanites in the same way that
the coming forth of the Quran energized the Arab tribes to create a
world Theocracy in a single lifetime.
I've looked and looked everywhere to try to figure out how this could
all happen, that's why I seized on Terence McKenna's ideas so strongly,
it seemed like he could be a kind of "spokesman" for the Mayan Shamans.
It also looks like the unstopable expansion of the population of the
Mexican poor into the US may be a part of thei scenario, as well as
the crippling effect of cocain (from Columbian indians) addiction among
the ruling class.
The real question in all this is this:
WHAT IS "THE SEALED PORTION" OF THE BOOK OF MORMON?
If we can understand this then we can unlock the rest.
Kenneth Shaw
>
> I've been surveying all of the Eagle-net.org links in the Radical
> sidebar. I have to recommend Ron Gilchrist's engrossing Living
> Scripture. I spent the evening rereading it. I think it was Eleazar
> who originally recommended it to me, a while back. Thanks on that. It
> is formative and foundational radical mormon stuff, IMHO. This is why I
> can say that Mormonism is both "apostate" _and_ "true and living", and
> why I insist on people taking personal responsibility for their own
> spiritual progress. You cannot rely on institutions, which for the most
> part are usurpations and compulsions; whited sepulchres. Here are some
> more, somewhat disjoint thoughts on Living Scriptures.
>
> On Moroni 8; Fascinating that Lamanites will be among the Gentiles as
> raging lions, no? It seems to me that it would take a miracle, for them
> ever to become lionhearted again. This brings many things to mind, from
> hippies, to mayan prophets. It seems to be saying that the righteous
> will flee an apostasized Church in the latter-days and join with these
> scary Lamanites. I remember years ago I found this to be one of the
> most confusing scriptures in the canon. It flies in the face of the
> infallibility doctrine! How things have changed.
>
> Just one problem. I can't bear indian wardrums! =}
>
> The Nibley quotes about the Nephites handing out endowments to just
> anyone who asked were hauntingly frightening. By extension, it suggests
> a kind of latter-day desolation of abomination scenario, and a
> subsequent cleansing of the sanctuaries. This is truly wierd. I'm
> impressed ;-}! It comes down to this question; Are we ripe yet? I
> guess not quite yet.
>
> Sorry for the ramble. If _anyone_ has some light to shed on this
> subject, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Also, check out Kent Steadman's Orbit, which is a vision of beauty. His
> glorious infinite universe is quite inspirational.
>
> Regards,
> proclus
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G
e++>++++ h---
> r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
"sealed portion" ect..
Date:
Tue, 08 Jun 1999 11:44:29 -0500 (CDT)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com
CC:
Student007@msn.com
Ken,
I believe there are several levels in which the "sealed
portion" will be manifest. The final and greatest is for an
individual to see for him/herself the vision which was given
to the Brother of Jared and other holy men and women (1 Ne.
14:26). The next best thing is for that record to be
brought forth, the two thirds which are yet sealed (Ether
3,4,5). That record will come after the cleansing of the
Gentiles, to a purified people (2 Ne. 17:8).
Previous to this, there will be more encrypted
manifestations. The Book of Isaiah, for example, is veiled
except from those who eyes are opened. Hence servants like
Avraham Gileadi and Marlene Holley play a foreordained role
in helping unlock the book of Isaiah and its "sealed"
message. The BofM is the best tool in this regard.
Another encrypted manifestation of "sealed" things is found
in the poetic language of scripture. Chiasms and Parallels,
for example, are a means the Lord employs for revealing a
deeper meaning than what is immediately apparent in the
primary text.
Alphabetic arrangements of words in dictionaries and
lexicons are another surprising source for a wealth of
astonishingly specific commentary on our day.
As you are probably aware, the GreaterThings.com web site is
devoted to the bringing forth of Greater Things, e.g. the
"sealed" truths for those who have eyes to see.
Approximately one fourth of the book of Isaiah is accounted
for on that web site.
In the spirit of "those who receive that which they have
been given, to them shall the greater things be manifest," I
would most sincerely implore your attention to the material
found on this web site.
Regarding your remarks below, you will find a great deal of
insight in resolving your question by looking at Isaiah 28,
II Nephi 28, and II Nephi 3, which are dealt with
extensively on the GreaterThings web site -- scripture
commenting on scripture (via correlating points of a chiasm
or parallel structure) is the best commentary you can find,
as it is from the Lord himself.
I don't claim to have a monopoly on "greater things," but I
do believe with all my heart that most of the material
contained at GreaterThings.com (parallels, alphabetics,
books) fits into this category and is a significant part of
the fulfillment of prophecy.
Don't expect to be spoon fed there either. If you are going
to glean something, it will be because you have exercised
the faith and spent sufficient time in pondering. The onus
for understanding is on your shoulders, where it ought to
be. It is between you and the Lord.
Sincerely,
Sterling D. Allan
http://www.GreaterThings.com
Subject:
history repeats
Date:
Tue, 08 Jun 1999 18:07:47 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts