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Subject: More poem Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:40:30 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, kathleen@enol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, black@accex.net CC: Student007@msn.com Existentialist poetry is useless, Produced from the false mechanical "I", It's images are empty and baseless, And no help at all when it's time to die. "Individualism" builds the lower "I". It teaches men to be thoughtless and cold, But when death comes leaves them high-and-dry, The secret of their life is left untold. *************************************** The angel's hearts are soaked in tranquil hope. Evolution is pulled towards a goal, Man's promise is plain when seen from that scope, But lower senses blind him to the whole. The final secret is revealed to Man, When he makes the inner and outer one, And takes his place in evolution's plan. Attachments will hide this phenomenon. Desires will blindfold the eye of the heart, And dress up idols for the outer eyes. All thoughts are useless no matter how smart, Unless they help to calm and harmonize. Subject: Re: mutant busnusy stuff Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:02:27 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man References: 1 The latest version of The Radical Mormon is online. I added Affirmation and LDSworld to the sidebar. Mormon News is gone. Here's the link. If you have any stories or links, please post them. I still haven't heard back from any of the the other news publishers yet. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Secretum secretorum Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:02:53 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna FYI, Secretum Secretorum has moved to a new location. Here's the link. http://www.neaccess.net/~jbgenest/secretum/index.html Regards, proclus Subject: 2nd pass on poem Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:58:52 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com The begining of an interpretation of The Psalm of the Gods By Molana-al-Moazam Hazrat Shah Maghsoud Sadegh-ibn-Mohammed Angha A being created by God named Sadegh, Son of Lord Mir Ghotbeddin Mohammed, Son of Lord Djalaleddin Ali Mir Abolfazl Angha, Tells his vision of humanity's past. In past ages men's souls were pure and clear, The seed point in the heart a source of life, Higher Love played music that all could hear, Their existence was free from greed or strife, No place was found for ugliness of soul, Actions grew out of compassion and care, Clear and free from the part to the whole, Their hearts secure in natural prayer. Death threw a much smaller shadow on men, The heart had no room for the poison seed, Their minds didn't form empty images then, The Light of Truth fulfilled every need. Calm hearts full of tenderness waited, Through the dead of night until the dawn, The Sons of Man to be initiated, To the door between worlds they were drawn. The Highest Truth appeared in human form, Whispering His song to the Sons of Man, The sound of His singing was soft and warm, His song "The Psalm of the Gods" began: ***************************************** Souls are part of God and inside of God, Existence itself is a form of Him. He sees what men do to serve or defraud, His Presence fills all right up to the brim. His light cuts through every secret unsaid, The good are raised up and the evil put down. The living don't see the state of the dead. The evil will fight and grasp till they drown. Mankind has fallen from its peaceful place, Men willfully walk in their own dark way. The Earth does nothing to harm or debase, Greed and desire have pulled men astray. The wicked huddle together for fear, Inwardly knowing the evil they've done. The poor live lives that are plain and austere, But inwardly rich in beauty and fun. They live each moment in total presence, Not grasping at anything coming next. A man's life-force leaks out through negligence, Always distracted by money and sex. Man's greedy desires are never fulfilled, Straining at pleasure he gets only death, Sucking in nothing but poison distilled, Desperately weeping he leaks out his breath. Gravediggers get paid for digging a grave, The lives of the greedy are much the same, Starting as master but ending as slave, Choking in terror and twisting in shame. The grasping stare like a jealous child, Angry at pleasure that others may get. Punishment grows out of desire gone wild, The violent are held back only by threat. A man's inner torment springs from remorse, Inner witness of his own ugly deeds. Mental images are empty and coarse, Blinding and choking like poisonous weeds. Men kill themselves by polluting their hearts, They can't share a home with a rotting corpse. A coward finds safety in lawyer's arts, Protections for the poor he slyly warps. The young and simple are as food to him, Yet he sees himself as a superman. Nimrod imagines himself in a hymn, But really he's just a flash in the pan. Law has been warped by Nietzsche and Marx, Their inner demons set loose on the earth, Cutting men free to be food for the sharks, The people reduced to what they are worth. Decaying old doctrines sprout out new growth, Blinding the poor to their natural right. The Real Man repents with a secret oath, And walks as led by the true inner light. Subject: What kind of Mormon are you? Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 18:58:04 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man Don't forget to visit Radical and take the new poll. You will find it under the new Nazi Mormons story. I got to thinking about this question, and I went back and added "open source mormon" to the list. I voted for it. You can add things to the list too. Just go to the poll and add whatever you want. Afterall, you can be any kind of Mormon that you want to be. Vote as many times as you want. There are no cookies. What is an "open source mormon"? I had some conversations with Dave, off list, who helped me realize that we have a hidden assumption in the FAQ. The idea of open source makes it explicit. It is simply this; No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot be usurped. No corporation can trademark a human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs to our dead ancestors, and through them, it belongs to every one of us. The affirmation of our Mormonism validates their hopes. We are the heritors of the family and generation of God. Furthermore, our path to God is our own responsibility and no one elses. We can use public knowledge and alternative religious systems, such as Wilson, Leary, and Campbell to become more godlike, and explore the divine mind. Even as some of us leave the Church, we become more Mormon, not less. Finally, our heretage should not be locked away in private archives, but rather it should be freely available to all. It should not be occulted behind a brand. We cannot fulfill our potential without it. Open Source is a techie analogy for all of this. Intrepid open source developers do not wait for the authorities to empower them. They go out and write the code themselves. They are engines of progress, and they make their code available to others. On the other side are the stuffy proprietary developers, who want everyone channeled into the trademarked options which have been chosen for them. The code is proscripted. Progress is limited to the selected options. Is this clear? I think that Ken is a good example of this open source tendency in radical mormons. He is a seeker, and has searched all the worlds systems for the keys that would lead him closer to God. He has asiduously exploited those keys towards his own progress. He didn't wait for any authority to give him permission. I could say similar things about many of the rest of you, promethean titans all. What do you think? Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: What kind of Mormon are you? Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:50:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Combe To: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man Our exchange was off list because it was off list. Feel free to send the last post, which has the entire conversation, to everyone. If you don't have it, with your permission, I'll send it. Dave --- proclus wrote: > Don't forget to visit Radical and take the new poll. > You will find it > under the new Nazi Mormons story. > > I got to thinking about this question, and I went > back and added "open > source mormon" to the list. I voted for it. You > can add things to the > list too. Just go to the poll and add whatever you > want. Afterall, you > can be any kind of Mormon that you want to be. Vote > as many times as > you want. There are no cookies. > > What is an "open source mormon"? I had some > conversations with Dave, > off list, who helped me realize that we have a > hidden assumption in the > FAQ. The idea of open source makes it explicit. It > is simply this; > > No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot > be usurped. No corporation can trademark a > human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs > to our dead ancestors, and through them, it > belongs to every one of us. The affirmation > of our Mormonism validates their hopes. > We are the heritors of the family and > generation of God. > > Furthermore, our path to God is our own > responsibility and no one > elses. We can use public knowledge and alternative > religious systems, > such as Wilson, Leary, and Campbell to become more > godlike, and explore > the divine mind. Even as some of us leave the > Church, we become more > Mormon, not less. > > Finally, our heretage should not be locked away in > private archives, but > rather it should be freely available to all. It > should not be occulted > behind a brand. We cannot fulfill our potential > without it. > > Open Source is a techie analogy for all of this. > Intrepid open source > developers do not wait for the authorities to > empower them. They go out > and write the code themselves. They are engines of > progress, and they > make their code available to others. On the other > side are the stuffy > proprietary developers, who want everyone channeled > into the trademarked > options which have been chosen for them. The code > is proscripted. > Progress is limited to the selected options. > > Is this clear? I think that Ken is a good example > of this open source > tendency in radical mormons. He is a seeker, and > has searched all the > worlds systems for the keys that would lead him > closer to God. He has > asiduously exploited those keys towards his own > progress. He didn't > wait for any authority to give him permission. > > I could say similar things about many of the rest of > you, promethean > titans all. > > What do you think? > > Regards, > proclus > > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! > http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ > N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G > e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Dave Combe wrote: > > Our exchange was off list because it was off list. > Feel free to send the last post, which has the entire > conversation, to everyone. If you don't have it, with > your permission, I'll send it. That would be great. Here it is. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: mutant busnusy stuff Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:37:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Combe To: proclus@mac.com I wasn't offended. Al and I (old friends) are the most silent of the mutants. Andy and I talk regularly, and from here, I introduced him to q-saints, a e-mail list for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered mormonos or ex-mormons, as the case may be. I have also corresponded with Joe Swick for several years, meeting him when I was on mormon history lists. As I become more and more unattached as a mormon, I finsd that I post less and less on thee various liberal/radical lists I remain on. Besides this list, I am on a private list for mormon/exmormon feminists, a private list of men whose wives or, in my case, ex-wife, is more orthodox then they, a small list of self-selected folks that associate together with intellectuals [;-)], and a very interesting list that was put together by two people who wanted some of their favorite people to get to know one another. Remarkably, of the 25 people selected for that list, not one has ever left, and there have now been six [!!] marriages among the 25 people, near 50%. Remarkable. I have left all public lists, including mormon-l, the history lists, the AML list, and thee various others that I have been on over thee past 10 years. I was disfellowshipped in the fall of 1997, and had my name removed in May of 1998. And though I attend the Episcopal church now, I consider myself mormon, and am far more believing then most of the people on the lists that I am still a member of. It's so funny how things work out. I rarely post here, but I learn much. Probably the most mutant thing I have out there is my essay/paper that I delivered at Sunstone two summers ago, and which resides on Al's page. That someone like Joe Swick would write me to congratulate me on my paper and and take it seriously and ask hard, good questions, is honor enough for any mutant. I am active in Affirmation, and in Gamofites, the organization for gay mormon and ex-mormon fathers. If I have any "calling" or vocation, it is there, in Gamofites. It was there that I finally felt understood by these men, who, when I was depressed, and even suicidal, saved my life as literally as it can be done. And I stand there, with my fellow Gamofites to support the next one and the next one, as they come out and find themselves in deep places as they struggle with their realities and the church and the most difficult of choices that dark and lonely place presents. Dave --- Michael Love wrote: > Thanks Dave. It is nice to hear from you. Being > old > friends with Andy, I was aware of your concern. > Actually, I think that there are at least 3 > non-heteros on the list. > > I hope that you don't mind my toying with the > subject > a little. It is a fact that the list is not 100% > pro-gay rights. I was hoping to out any opposition > to putting mormon gay news links in The Radical > Mormon. If there is a problem with that, we need to > deal with it. I unswervingly maintain the ideal of > consensus in the circle. Too me, it brings holiness > to everything that we do. > > I will proceed with exploring and implementing the > links, if there is no opposition. Personally, I > think that it is a great idea. Thanks to Andy for > that, and Kathleen has also reminded me of the > correct address for Affirmation ;-}. > > I hope that you don't think that you are getting > more > than you bargained for here. Bear with me, and I > will unload abit more. > > I'll admit to being a little ambivalent about gay > issues myself. My wife and kids say that I am too > conservative on this subject. But I consider that I > am much more open minded than I was raised to be, > than I was ever expected to be. Living in the > Boston > area has been helpful in this regard. Believe it or > not, I am following the tolerant example of church > leaders that I love and respect. Despite my > ambivalence, I am excited about the prospects of > adding this important subject to the The Radical > Mormon. > > Please understand that I have always been proud to > have you in the mutantRMs. I hope that I have not > offended you in any way. I admire your work, and I > hope that we can be allies, as radical mormon > brothers. Please feel free to email me personally > any time, regarding anything. > > Best Regards, > proclus > > By the way, I am away from home for the weekend. I > don't have my address book, so I can't forward this > to Andy. Please feel free to discuss any of this > message with him as well. > > > > > === > Visit proclus' realm! > http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- > !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G > e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > ---Dave Combe wrote: > > > > > > > > There is at least one gay member of this list (me) > and > > at least one bi member of this list. > > > > Dave > > > > --- proclus wrote: > > > several items > > > --------- > > > > > > I'm still waiting on the new guy. He has to > check > > > off on the FAQ. You > > > know the drill ;-}. I am happy that it takes > more > > > than a click of the > > > mouse to join this wonderful group. > > > > > > Are any of you subscribed to Mormon News? I > > > subscribed to the mailing > > > list, but I haven't received anything yet. They > do > > > have some good > > > stories that are pretty fresh. It appears that > they > > > are doing something > > > similar to what we are trying to do in The > Radical > > > Mormon. > > > > > > Deseret Church news is another matter. I > haven't > > > heard back from them > > > yet, which is good news, I think. Whatever you > > > think of them, it would > > > be great, if they opened up their features to > us. > > > Now THAT would be > > > news. I wonder if they'll offer us a deal or > free > > > samples. Maybe > > > they'll even do a story on fringe mormon > websites > > > (alternative mormon?, > > > unofficial?). Hey, I can dream, can't I? > > > > > > I've been doing more research on the "radical > > > mormon" terminology, with > > > respect to our new publication. It seems that > the > > > mormon gay community > > > has many early adopters of the term "radical > > > mormon". I think we need > > > to discuss this. ;-} I understand that not > everyone > > > here will be > > > uniformly pleased by this news. > > > > > > I definitely think that we should list some > mormon > > > gay news items, if > > > there is such a thingy. in the side bar of the > > > Radical. That can't > > > hurt, no? Isn't there a site called Affirmation > or > > > something like that? > > > ;-} > > > > > > I finally got the table tags right. I spied on > > > Slashdot's code! > > > Everything is lined up at the top now. Please > keep > > > the suggestions > > > coming! > > > > > > Best Regards to you All, > > > proclus > > > > > > -- > > > Visit proclus' realm! > > > http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > Version: 3.1 > > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- > W++ > > > N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > > > V-- > > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI > D- G > > > e++>++++ h--- > > > r+++ y++++ > > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Subject: Re: mutant busnusy stuff Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:14:03 -0400 From: proclus To: Dave Combe , proclus References: 1 Dave Combe wrote: > > I wasn't offended. That's cool ;-} Al and I (old friends) are the > most silent of the mutants. Andy and I talk regularly, > and from here, Actually, there is quite abit of this kind of thing going on along the perimeter of the circle. I think that it is sometimes hidden from me. I don't mind. In fact, I would encourage it if I could. We are all busy and anxiously engaged. It is perfectly fine when mutantRMs is tangential to some of our interests. We bring more to the circle that way. > As I become more and more unattached as a mormon, I > finsd that I post less and less on thee various > liberal/radical lists I remain on. Besides this list, > I am on a private list for mormon/exmormon feminists, > a private list of men whose wives or, in my case, > ex-wife, is more orthodox then they, a small list of > self-selected folks that associate together with > intellectuals [;-)], and a very interesting list that > was put together by two people who wanted some of > their favorite people to get to know one another. > Remarkably, of the 25 people selected for that list, > not one has ever left, and there have now been six > [!!] marriages among the 25 people, near 50%. > Remarkable. That sounds like some pretty interesting groups. I hope that you feel free to cross post once in a while, when it seems appropriate. One of the things I am trying to do with The Radical Mormon is to bring together some diverse groups which can share in radical mormonism. We have a common center. It's in the FAQ. ;-} Perhaps you could post a link in some of your other groups. > I have left all public lists, including mormon-l, the > history lists, the AML list, and thee various others > that I have been on over thee past 10 years. . . . > I rarely post here, but I learn much. Probably the > most mutant thing I have out there is my essay/paper > that I delivered at Sunstone two summers ago, and > which resides on Al's page. That someone like Joe > Swick would write me to congratulate me on my paper > and and take it seriously and ask hard, good > questions, is honor enough for any mutant. I feel honored all the time to be associated with the mutantRMs. You know, when I feel disconnected and spaced out, mutantRM's is one of the things that my mind always snaps back to, especially Ken. It is part of my human connection. Most people need to feel that they belong to an elite corp once in a while. Every one of the mutants is illustrious is some way. We are all connected. > I was disfellowshipped in the fall of 1997, and had my > name removed in May of 1998. And though I attend the > Episcopal church now, I consider myself mormon, and am > far more believing then most of the people on the > lists that I am still a member of. > > It's so funny how things work out. Of course, it is one of the unspoken assumptions that no one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot be usurped. No corporation can trademark a human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs to our dead ancestors, and through them, it belongs to every one of us. The affirmation of our Mormonism validates their hopes. We are the heritors of the family of God. > I am active in Affirmation, I sent them a little announcement, when I added them to The Radical Mormon. It will be interesting to see if we hear back from anyone about this. Traffic at the website is still a thin trickle. and in Gamofites, the > organization for gay mormon and ex-mormon fathers. If > I have any "calling" or vocation, it is there, in > Gamofites. It was there that I finally felt understood > by these men, who, when I was depressed, and even > suicidal, saved my life as literally as it can be > done. And I stand there, with my fellow Gamofites to > support the next one and the next one, as they come > out and find themselves in deep places as they > struggle with their realities and the church and the > most difficult of choices that dark and lonely place > presents. Like I said, I admire your work. Thanks for being there. Regards, proclus > Dave -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- What kind of Mutants are we? Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:22:08 -0400 (EDT) From: onandagus@webtv.net (Don Bradley) To: proclus@mac.com (proclus) CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com (Andy Mcguire), ArtdeHoyos@aol.com (ArtdeHoyos), ariel144@hotmail.com (Beth any), comdb@yahoo.com (Dave), enoch144@eagle-net.org (Enoch Shemna), jswick@cris.com (Joe Steve Swick III), kathleen@enol.com (Kathleen McGuire), kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw), shirtail@cyberhighway.net (Kerry Shirts), mpierce@switchsoft.com (Michael J. Pierce), proclus@mac.com (proclus), trent@goodnet.com (R. Trent Reynolds), rds@acsu.buffalo.edu (Randall Shortridge), black@accex.net (Robert R. Black), rpcman@hotmail.com (rpc man) Michael and Mutants, I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined. So far as I have been able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has a strong interest in the esoteric. Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But, obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical Mormonism." This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them? BTW, Dave, do you know Bob Woolley? And what was this paper Joe Swick commented on? Don Bradley Subject: Re: What kind of Mutants are we? Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:38:08 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , " M i c h a el J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 Don Bradley wrote: > Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I > find myself asking, "Why?" Don, I will try and respond to your question later tonight. I just want to ask everyone to please go and check out the affirmation stories before we start this debate. I think that they are nice liberal mormon news, quite apart from the gay issue. I also think that they will attract traffic to the site. Then, compare the affirmation stories to the other news items in the sidebar. We have a balanced representation of the diverse mormon presence on the web. This includes the center, as well as wacko and far-out mormon sites. Affirmation only adds to that balance. I was very impressed with the quality of their journalism. It was a pleasure to compile this diverse list of Mormon sites from our very own open source, the mutantRM archive. Again, please go and check it out, before adding input to the debate. Regards and More Later, proclus Don Bradley wrote: > > Michael and Mutants, > > I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on > it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on > here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical > Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined. So far as I have been > able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in > receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has > a strong interest in the esoteric. > > Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I > find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to > the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But, > obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical > Mormonism." This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your > vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had > thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your > wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them? > > BTW, Dave, do you know Bob Woolley? And what was this paper Joe Swick > commented on? > > Don Bradley -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: What kind of Mormon are you? Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:54:22 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com CC: Student007@msn.com Proclus, "No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot be usurped. No corporation can trademark a human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs to our dead ancestors, and through them, it belongs to every one of us. The affirmation of our Mormonism validates their hopes. We are the heritors of the family and generation of God." This last post was so right-on that I gota' say "AMEN"! Our own flesh and blood laid down their lives and fortunes to follow the collective revelation called "Mormonism". "Mormonism" belongs to the people, not to those men who've happened to have seized the Real Estate. >>"Open Source is a techie analogy for all of this. Intrepid open source >>developers do not wait for the authorities to empower them. They go out >>and write the code themselves. They are engines of progress, and they >>make their code available to others. On the other side are the stuffy >>proprietary developers, who want everyone channeled into the trademarked >>options which have been chosen for them. The code is proscripted. >>Progress is limited to the selected options." This is realy what I was getting at when I suggested the "Mormon Radical" catagory to begin with...going beyond "Fundamentalism" by back to the "Root" (radix) that Joseph spang from. Joseph was selected at an early age to be trained by the mysterious Luman Walters, who was some kind of "esotericist" who had traveled in Europe. "The Magus" had been in people's hands for a long time, but it was Joseph Smith who was able to "get results"with it. Why? It is this kind of circumstantial wierdness that convinced me that "Mormonism" was a "project" of some kind, intended to produce a specific impact on a specific "people, place and time". Ken Shaw Subject: Re: What kind of Mutants are we? Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:29:48 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com, onandagus@webtv.net CC: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com Hail Mutants, This question of sexuality has been central to the "Mormon" enterprise from the begining. In Islam it is taught that Shaitan hates humanity out of jealousy of their capacity for horniness....Shaitan is impotent. A close study of historical Gnosticism shows that Jesus trancended all catagories, including gender. The Siberian Shaman wears womens cloths when shamanizing because of appoaching "Power" disolves all boundries. The Nabis (prophets) of Yahu ("Jehovah") would sometimes go naked in public for years and then move in with a prostitute to father children for Yahu. My quess is that as consciouness approaches "singularity"...everything becomes everything, and sexuality becomes a kind of "omnisexuality". Ken Shaw > > Michael and Mutants, > > I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on > it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on > here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical > Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined. So far as I have been > able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in > receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has > a strong interest in the esoteric. > > Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I > find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to > the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But, > obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical > Mormonism." This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your > vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had > thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your > wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them? > > BTW, Dave, do you know Bob Woolley? And what was this paper Joe Swick > commented on? > > Don Bradley > > Subject: Re: What kind of Mutants are we? Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:28:37 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 Ken Shaw wrote: > > Hail Mutants, > > This question of sexuality has been central to the "Mormon" enterprise > and this > > My quess is that as consciouness approaches "singularity"...everything becomes > everything, and sexuality becomes a kind of "omnisexuality". Just ask yourself, was God being unfaithful to his consort, when he created a beautiful woman? Was he being homosexual, when he created a beautiful man? The answer may illustrate the nature of this "omnisexuality". "Mormonism can encompass the most radical thought that I can think." When we say we are the generation of God, we are not singing a Who song ;-}. It is literal. Here is another poll. In the Kerry Shirts stylie, I will fill it in. I am; [*] heterosexual [*] homosexual [*] virgin [*] whore Regards, proclus Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Gurdjieff and Sufis Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:29:53 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org Dear Chaverim, Yakov Leib wrote in part: >I have long been curious about the fascinating work of Gurdjieff and >Ouspensky, but know next to nothing about them. If someone else does, >would they be willing to write one or two articles about theirteachings >as they apply to Kabbalah and, if possible, the theosophy of Sabbatian >Kabbalah in particular? May I offer the following, written from memory after some 10 or more years since I last looked into this topic. The late John Bennett (a Kings College, Wimbledon-educated military man) was also a pupil of Gurdjieff, and has written several accounts of the origins of Gurdjieff's work and of working under Gurdjieff. All very fascinating reading. Gurdjieff himself wrote amazingly little, but is well known for one work in particular, "Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson", an apparently allegorical (and teaching) work, a copy of which I have in my possession. John Bennett tried to identify the source of Gurdjieff's learning, but seems not to have come up with completely concrete answers, although Tibetan Buddhism, Mevlevi Darwish(ism) and Naqshbandi Sufism figure largely in his hypothesis. Gurdjieff (an Armenian or Georgian by birth, I think) was an immensely travelled person, including India, Tibet and much of Asia Minor before and around 1900. Subsequently to these travels, he went to Moscow, established a 'school' and later established a link with Ouspensky. These two later fell out on some matter, and Gurdjieff moved his 'school' to Fontainebleu, near Paris, where he remained until he died (1951 I think). Ouspensky went to America. My simplistic impression is that Gurdjieff's method was a 'fluid' type, as opposed to a more 'scientific' method favoured by Ouspensky. Certainly, from my reading of the matter, and discussion with some former pupils, there do seem to be definite links with Sufi methods and objectives, but I feel his teachings are certainly what might be described as a collection of 'pick and mix' varieties. Dance, enneagram-based science, meditation and hard physical work were inter-twined in Gurdjieff's teachings towards the task of 'dieing before you die'....the merging of the soul with the absolute in one's own lifetime. John Lerwill YAKOV LEIB REPLIES: Dear Chaver John, At the risk of putting you on the spot (which I really don't mean to do) let me ask a favor: if you have a scanner, could you scan "Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson" and send it to me at amirah@earthlink.net in jpeg format? I would then forward it to the Donmeh in a series of shorter posts from you. Subject: Re: Gurdjieff and Sufis Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:53:14 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 Ken Shaw wrote: > YAKOV LEIB REPLIES: > > Dear Chaver John, > > At the risk of putting you on the spot (which I really don't mean to do) > let me ask a favor: if you have a scanner, could you scan "Beelzebub's > Tales to his Grandson" and send it to me at amirah@earthlink.net in jpeg > format? I would then forward it to the Donmeh in a series of shorter > posts from you. Whoa! I was shocked to read the statement from YAKOV LEIB. Beelzebub is three novel length books. It is a fine read, but posting the whole thing in jpeg would be arduous to the point of impossible. I liked the Lerwill's story. Still, I'm a little skeptical that the scientific bent of Gurdjieff came to us only as filtered through Ouspensky. I could come up with arguments from Beelzebub against this hypothesis, I think. I also loved Twain's Tales from Earth, and consider it in the same vein as Beelzebub. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: What kind of Mormon are you? Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:29:06 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , rpc man > Proclus, > > > "No one owns Mormonism. Our genes cannot > be usurped. No corporation can trademark a > human heretage, an ethnicity. It belongs > to our dead ancestors, and through them, it > belongs to every one of us. The affirmation > of our Mormonism validates their hopes. > We are the heritors of the family and > generation of God." > > > This last post was so right-on that I gota' say "AMEN"! > > Our own flesh and blood laid down their lives and fortunes > to follow the collective revelation called "Mormonism". > > "Mormonism" belongs to the people, not to those men who've > happened to have seized the Real Estate. Thanx man! Does this mean a change to the FAQ? Are we sure that we want to go there? > This is realy what I was getting at when I suggested the "Mormon Radical" > catagory to begin with...going beyond "Fundamentalism" by back to the "Root" > (radix) that Joseph spang from. Joseph was selected at an early age to be > trained by the mysterious Luman Walters, who was some kind of "esotericist" > who had traveled in Europe. "The Magus" had been in people's hands for a long > time, but it was Joseph Smith who was able to "get results"with it. Why? > > It is this kind of circumstantial wierdness that convinced me that "Mormonism" > was a "project" of some kind, intended to produce a specific impact on a > specific "people, place and time". Hehe, let's root the server! I think we have a need to know. You da' man! Regards, proclus > Ken Shaw -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: What kind of Mutants are we? Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:25:18 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man > Michael and Mutants, > > I have been a lurker on this list most of the time that I have been on > it, but I have followed with great interest most of what has gone on > here. But I must say that, the FAQ notwithstanding, I think the "Radical > Mormon" concept is still somewhat poorly defined. I would have to agree with that. That is one of the reasons I'm trying to point out an assumption that we haven't made explicit. The only reason that we can call ourselves radical mormons is because we are essentially mormons, we own the concept. Anyone who wants to contribute to the FAQ, please do. We can discuss it, and if we are agreed, we can change it. We have done it before. > So far as I have been > able to determine a "radical Mormon" is someone who believes in > receiving all truth, "let it come from whence it may" and, usually, has > a strong interest in the esoteric. That seems too limited to me. The scope of our discussion has been far wider than that, and it doesn't appear to me to reflect the mutantRM masthead at all. Here is an analogy. Have you heard that Hubble Telescope finally laid its golden egg. Now, we have an accurate Hubble constant. One upshot is that we now know how big the universe is. With our machine, we can see the edge of existance, the final curtains. It is as if we had gone fishing and pulled in the biggest fish of all. We held out our hands and said, "It's this big." And, we said it accurately. We can have the number in our heads. I feel that radical mormonism is an attempt to similarly encompass all of Mormonism, to peer into the most hidden places. > Now the question of adding a link to LDS Gay sites has come up, and I > find myself asking, "Why?" I really don't see how this issue relates to > the truth-gathering and esoteric interests expressed above. But, > obviously, to you (Michael), LDS Gay issues _are_ related to "radical > Mormonism." I have tried to address this in a some other posts. It will be interesting to see if people will still ask this question after checking the links themselves. > This being the case, I have to think that perhaps your > vision for the Radical Mormon must be more wide-ranging than what I had > thought. Just what IS the point of this list and the website? In your > wildest dreams, what do you see coming from them? For the Radical; I have tried to explain this in other posts. I see it as an outer circle for us. We should cast a wide net in the outer circle. It can be the road to Jericho. MutantRMs can be the eye of the needle. It was a pleasure for me to compile the sidebar links almost exclusively from our own discussion archives. They represent the breadth of diversity that exists in the mormon web community, but I think that only we could have pulled that off. This should promote traffic and rare dailogue, eventually. Further, I would like the Radical to become the definitive mormon news site on the web, news for the whole community, not just the center or the fringe. I would like to see some of our interactions moved off the list and into the outer circle, the Radical. It can be a wonderful tool for us. If you have news or links, post it to the Radical Mormon public discussion forum. You can configure it so that it will send you email when there is a change. For the List; It is difficult for me to express how I cherish the time that I have had with each of you. If we disbanded today, I would have a wealth of good memories, good friends, and more. Now, our relationships have been a little wordy of late (especially mine!). Small disagreements should not paralyze our efforts. In the past, I have always been surprised how we break through stagnation to the next grade. Let's go to the next grade. We can be more than our words. We can engage the world in a positive way. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: Luman Walters Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:42:09 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man > This is realy what I was getting at when I suggested the "Mormon Radical" > catagory to begin with...going beyond "Fundamentalism" by back to the "Root" > (radix) that Joseph spang from. Joseph was selected at an early age to be > trained by the mysterious Luman Walters, who was some kind of "esotericist" > who had traveled in Europe. "The Magus" had been in people's hands for a long > time, but it was Joseph Smith who was able to "get results"with it. Why? It looks like I'm going to have to take another look at Magus. ;-} Thanks for the info, Ken! Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ RE: Min the Mormon God Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 23:49:14 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Kerry Shirts , 'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com> CC: Joe Steve Swick III , Dave , Beth any , Beth , ArtdeHoyos , Andy Mcguire , Randall Shortridge , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Michael J. Pierce" , Kathleen McGuire , 'proclus' , Enoch Shemna , Ken Shaw , rpc man Message text written by Kerry Shirts > our FAIR newsletter "Apologia" next month.< What FAIR newsletter ? How do we subscribe. Robert. The FAIR newsletter is free from the FAIR website. It's called "Apologia". http://www.fair-lds.org./ Kerry (Sorry so long in responding, been putting our FAIR Conference together for June 17-19) Subject: Re: Min the Mormon God Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 23:12:39 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Kerry Shirts , 'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com> CC: Dave , Beth any , Beth , ArtdeHoyos , Andy Mcguire , Randall Shortridge , "R. Trent Reynolds" , onandagus@webtv.net, "Michael J. Pierce" , Kathleen McGuire , 'proclus' , Enoch Shemna , Ken Shaw , rpc man References: 1 I do not appear to have recieved the message which the post below responds to. Cheers, JSW ----- Original Message ----- From: Kerry Shirts To: Kerry Shirts 'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com> Cc: Joe Steve Swick III Dave Beth any Beth ArtdeHoyos Andy Mcguire Randall Shortridge R. Trent Reynolds Michael J. Pierce Kathleen McGuire 'proclus' Enoch Shemna Ken Shaw rpc man Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 10:49 PM Subject: RE: Min the Mormon God > > Message text written by Kerry Shirts > > our FAIR newsletter "Apologia" next month.< > > What FAIR newsletter ? How do we subscribe. > > Robert. > > The FAIR newsletter is free from the FAIR website. It's called "Apologia". > > http://www.fair-lds.org./ > > Kerry (Sorry so long in responding, been putting our FAIR Conference together for June 17-19) > > Subject: Living Scripture Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 00:03:20 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man I've been surveying all of the Eagle-net.org links in the Radical sidebar. I have to recommend Ron Gilchrist's engrossing Living Scripture. I spent the evening rereading it. I think it was Eleazar who originally recommended it to me, a while back. Thanks on that. It is formative and foundational radical mormon stuff, IMHO. This is why I can say that Mormonism is both "apostate" _and_ "true and living", and why I insist on people taking personal responsibility for their own spiritual progress. You cannot rely on institutions, which for the most part are usurpations and compulsions; whited sepulchres. Here are some more, somewhat disjoint thoughts on Living Scriptures. On Moroni 8; Fascinating that Lamanites will be among the Gentiles as raging lions, no? It seems to me that it would take a miracle, for them ever to become lionhearted again. This brings many things to mind, from hippies, to mayan prophets. It seems to be saying that the righteous will flee an apostasized Church in the latter-days and join with these scary Lamanites. I remember years ago I found this to be one of the most confusing scriptures in the canon. It flies in the face of the infallibility doctrine! How things have changed. Just one problem. I can't bear indian wardrums! =} The Nibley quotes about the Nephites handing out endowments to just anyone who asked were hauntingly frightening. By extension, it suggests a kind of latter-day desolation of abomination scenario, and a subsequent cleansing of the sanctuaries. This is truly wierd. I'm impressed ;-}! It comes down to this question; Are we ripe yet? I guess not quite yet. Sorry for the ramble. If _anyone_ has some light to shed on this subject, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, check out Kent Steadman's Orbit, which is a vision of beauty. His glorious infinite universe is quite inspirational. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Living Scripture Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:35:12 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com CC: Student007@msn.com Proclus, The Book of Mormon itself explicitly says that it was brought forth to awaken the "Lamanites" to their true identity. It's kind of like the the same thing that the racist-right "Christian-Identity" idea, only with brown people instead of white people. 3 NEPHI 21 states plainly t hat the Book of Mormon wou ld go first to the Gentiles, on it's way t o t he Lamanites, but that the Gentiles (LDS) would almost instantly become arrogant racists who would disrespect both the Lamanites and the Jews. It is then that the "Fullness of the Gospel of the Father" would be taken from the Gentiles (LDS) and transfered to the "House of Israel" (Lamanites). Then the Lamanites would become "a Nation born in a day" and take the land back from the Gentiles in a Holy War (Jihad?). The pre-Correlation Committee era traditional understanding of this passage was that a Prophet would be raised up among the Lamanites who who bring forth the "Sealed Portion" of the Book of mormon, and that that miraculous event would awaken the Lamanites in the same way that the coming forth of the Quran energized the Arab tribes to create a world Theocracy in a single lifetime. I've looked and looked everywhere to try to figure out how this could all happen, that's why I seized on Terence McKenna's ideas so strongly, it seemed like he could be a kind of "spokesman" for the Mayan Shamans. It also looks like the unstopable expansion of the population of the Mexican poor into the US may be a part of thei scenario, as well as the crippling effect of cocain (from Columbian indians) addiction among the ruling class. The real question in all this is this: WHAT IS "THE SEALED PORTION" OF THE BOOK OF MORMON? If we can understand this then we can unlock the rest. Kenneth Shaw > > I've been surveying all of the Eagle-net.org links in the Radical > sidebar. I have to recommend Ron Gilchrist's engrossing Living > Scripture. I spent the evening rereading it. I think it was Eleazar > who originally recommended it to me, a while back. Thanks on that. It > is formative and foundational radical mormon stuff, IMHO. This is why I > can say that Mormonism is both "apostate" _and_ "true and living", and > why I insist on people taking personal responsibility for their own > spiritual progress. You cannot rely on institutions, which for the most > part are usurpations and compulsions; whited sepulchres. Here are some > more, somewhat disjoint thoughts on Living Scriptures. > > On Moroni 8; Fascinating that Lamanites will be among the Gentiles as > raging lions, no? It seems to me that it would take a miracle, for them > ever to become lionhearted again. This brings many things to mind, from > hippies, to mayan prophets. It seems to be saying that the righteous > will flee an apostasized Church in the latter-days and join with these > scary Lamanites. I remember years ago I found this to be one of the > most confusing scriptures in the canon. It flies in the face of the > infallibility doctrine! How things have changed. > > Just one problem. I can't bear indian wardrums! =} > > The Nibley quotes about the Nephites handing out endowments to just > anyone who asked were hauntingly frightening. By extension, it suggests > a kind of latter-day desolation of abomination scenario, and a > subsequent cleansing of the sanctuaries. This is truly wierd. I'm > impressed ;-}! It comes down to this question; Are we ripe yet? I > guess not quite yet. > > Sorry for the ramble. If _anyone_ has some light to shed on this > subject, it would be greatly appreciated. > > Also, check out Kent Steadman's Orbit, which is a vision of beauty. His > glorious infinite universe is quite inspirational. > > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > "sealed portion" ect.. Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 11:44:29 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com CC: Student007@msn.com Ken, I believe there are several levels in which the "sealed portion" will be manifest. The final and greatest is for an individual to see for him/herself the vision which was given to the Brother of Jared and other holy men and women (1 Ne. 14:26). The next best thing is for that record to be brought forth, the two thirds which are yet sealed (Ether 3,4,5). That record will come after the cleansing of the Gentiles, to a purified people (2 Ne. 17:8). Previous to this, there will be more encrypted manifestations. The Book of Isaiah, for example, is veiled except from those who eyes are opened. Hence servants like Avraham Gileadi and Marlene Holley play a foreordained role in helping unlock the book of Isaiah and its "sealed" message. The BofM is the best tool in this regard. Another encrypted manifestation of "sealed" things is found in the poetic language of scripture. Chiasms and Parallels, for example, are a means the Lord employs for revealing a deeper meaning than what is immediately apparent in the primary text. Alphabetic arrangements of words in dictionaries and lexicons are another surprising source for a wealth of astonishingly specific commentary on our day. As you are probably aware, the GreaterThings.com web site is devoted to the bringing forth of Greater Things, e.g. the "sealed" truths for those who have eyes to see. Approximately one fourth of the book of Isaiah is accounted for on that web site. In the spirit of "those who receive that which they have been given, to them shall the greater things be manifest," I would most sincerely implore your attention to the material found on this web site. Regarding your remarks below, you will find a great deal of insight in resolving your question by looking at Isaiah 28, II Nephi 28, and II Nephi 3, which are dealt with extensively on the GreaterThings web site -- scripture commenting on scripture (via correlating points of a chiasm or parallel structure) is the best commentary you can find, as it is from the Lord himself. I don't claim to have a monopoly on "greater things," but I do believe with all my heart that most of the material contained at GreaterThings.com (parallels, alphabetics, books) fits into this category and is a significant part of the fulfillment of prophecy. Don't expect to be spoon fed there either. If you are going to glean something, it will be because you have exercised the faith and spent sufficient time in pondering. The onus for understanding is on your shoulders, where it ought to be. It is between you and the Lord. Sincerely, Sterling D. Allan http://www.GreaterThings.com Subject: history repeats Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 18:07:47 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man I just ran across a most startling utterance of St. Ambrose. With reference to the theories of Copernicus he wrote, "To discuss the nature and position of the earth does not help us in our hope of the life to come." Ignorance is bliss. How many times have we heard this from well-meaning mormons, who thought we were "looking beyond the mark". Unbelievable. Everyday mormons are starting to sound like neophobic catholic theologians! I'd be amazed if Abraham was teaching ptolemaic epicycles in pharoah's court. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Moshiah Hancock vision Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 10:50:45 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com CC: Student007@msn.com A Vision of The Pre-Mortal Existence of Spirits Given to Mosiah Hancock in 1853 Compiled By Glen W. Chapman May 1996 >From Writings of Early Latter-day Saints Chap. Mosiah Hancock Auto, typescript, BYU-SPg 56 "I shall now return to Payson. {visions} About the time I was one and twenty years of age, I know not whether to call it a dream or a vision; some have classed it a dream. I do not expect to give it in full: for to me it is sacred, beyond expression, especially some things I have no power to describe in words or to express in writing. Me thought I was taken away somewhere to Oh! such a Glorious Realm. I saw He whom at that time we Reverently spoke of as The Great Eternal. I saw the females at his right side. I have no idea of their number. I there saw the Savior; and calling me by name He said, "Mosiah, I have brought you here that you may know how it was before you went to yonder earth." Thinks I, What earth? for it seemed to me that I had no knowledge of an earth. He said, "As it is written in the Beginning, God created man, male and female, created He them." "And know you that no man is man without female, and that in the Lord. And no female is female without the male, and that in the Lord." I shall not attempt to tell how they were formed...suffice it to say, they were created in pairs, the male and his female. And as they came up to the throne of the Great Eternal the mothers seemed to name the females, and Oh! the respect they seemed to entertain for each other as they marched forth. The right elbow of the female seemed to touch the left elbow of the male. I should judge the males, generally to be about six feet two inches in height, and the females some three or four inches less. Their forms seemed as perfect as a new born infant, with no interference. They marched forth clothed in robes of a light color, tied in front. They were instructed in everything that could be imagined, the finest oratory and everything of literary turn, including astronomy, trigonometry, surveying and the use of most delicate machinery. The females were taught to weave, to knit, to sew and to work in everything in their departments. Oh! the music of those spheres; I seem inadequate to touch upon the least of those accomplishments of the Heavenly Characters. Yet they were so orderly and harmonious that it seemed as if one could hear a pin drop. I saw some who became more efficient in science or other knowledge and they were advanced from class to class. It seemed as if the female always kept with her companion for they were always together, for I never saw one fall behind. Even those who had been placed to overlook the classes were always together. The male overlooking the males and his female overlooking females. I even had a companion with me that needed no prompting. It seemed that I had been with the Savior so long, it seemed that I wore the same vesture as his. All at once a Heavenly voice seemed to reverberate, as it were, through the immensity of space and said: 'Hear all ye, Oh my children! We have a world for you on which you can dwell and you can have the chance on coming up as we have come up.' We then gathered together in counsel to devise means of redemption, should it be needed. One arose whom I had always looked upon as the Savior and said that he would go down and lay before the Children of men the gospel that they might have the chance of attaining the glory as the Gods had done by the obedience to the Divine Plan of Life. Then I saw another who supposed his plan to be superior to the plan of the first for he said that he would save all; only that he wanted the glory. I saw that he and his plan were not accepted, so there was considerable commotion. At last I saw, as it were, a platform extended where the contest could be decided. I was indignant at the opposition as we fought with our opponents. The one called Levi became my father, and the one called Clarissa was my mother here on earth. My father seemed a savior as he strove to bring me up in the admonition of the Lord; and blessed be the name of my parents. Clarissa became my mother and she certainly did a Christian duty to me. But there are others who have no right with me or mine, that I cheerfully leave in the hands of One that I know doeth all things well. Although I have been weak at times, I trust that I can be worth of Glory hereafter. Addendum "When about twenty-one years of age, I was permitted by the power of God, to go into His presence and into my former abode. I saw the Eternal Father on His throne and His wives on His left side, all shining in glory, I saw the Savior and knew Him. It takes the power of the Holy Ghost to tell the difference between the Father and the Son, they look so much alike Jesus said: 'Mosiah, I have brought you here to show you how it was before you went to the earth.' I had been to the earth; everything looked so natural and familiar. I seemed to have been a companion of the Savior and talked with him like a friend. Again, He spoke to me and said: "Look and see man as he came forth." I looked in the direction indicated and saw an innumerable line of God's children extending further than I could see. They were arranged in pairs, male and female, and passed in front of the Eternal Father who named them; and they were clad in long white robes with girdles tied around the waists; each pair seemed to have been created mates. " "When thus clothed; they were arranged in classes of about two hundred; the males sitting in front and the females behind them. They were taught in the arts and sciences, and everything necessary to make the heart happy The teachers of the classes received the instruction they imparted from certain notable ones, who in turn got their directions from the Father and the Son- I thought I was one to overlook the classes; I also saw Joseph, Brigham and many others engaged in this work of education. I thought as some became more efficient than others they were advanced from class to class I thought my name was Mosiah, and the names of the other brethren there were the same as upon the earth. All at once there was a gathering of these spirits and the voice of the Great Eternal (for that is what we called God there) spoke: "Oh, ye my children," and His voice penetrated throughout space, so countless were His offspring "We have an earth prepared for you, on which you can dwell and have a chance to come up, thru obeying our Heavenly laws." "I there heard the question asked: "Who will go down and set an example of humility and faithfulness to these my children, that they may be brought, thru obedience to our laws, back into our presence?" "I thought I saw one in the express image of the Father say, "Father, I will go down and set a pattern of humility and patience that your children, thru my example, may be brought back again." How nob le, I thought, He looked when He offere d Hi mself to patient before the children of our Father I saw another, who seemed to be a very high military officer who arose and said: 'I will go down to yonder earth and surely I will bring all your children back to you so none of them shall be lost.' The plan of the first was accepted as being the only sure plan for an exaltation The plan of the second was rejected with great kindness, but the second was not satisfied; and while the first stood in great humility by the side of the Father, the second with many who stood in with him, went about among the Heavenly hosts to advocate the plan, that was put forth as the rights of the second. This one was Lucifer, a son of the morning, for any had been with the Father for countless ages, and learned their lessons well, and he had been no dull scholar. Finally Lucifer openly rebelled against the Father and the Son and six other mighty ones who stood faithful with them and declared, ''I will have it my way." I saw the faithful ones gather around the Father and the Son, and Lucifer's workers gathered around him, when one of the notable ones, who was called Michael, arose and said, 'We will decide the contest' It seemed that a platform was extended into space,. upon which we could operate, by what power I could not tell. We who were faithful to the Father and the Son, had a white star upon us, and the others chose a red star, about one third of the males and females would not accept of either star, but withdrew from the conflict, the females taking the males by the arm, said, "Come, let us not take part with either side. Let us retire-" (When they were cast out after the manner of spiritual warfare,) they had no power to return. When they were all cleared from the platform and Satan and his followers were all cast down, their female companions wept, and we all wept. " "No females took part against the Father and the Son, but all took sides in their favor, except the. neutral ones already mentioned. After the tears were dried, from our eyes, the voice of the Great Eternal spoke again and said, 'Hear, O ye my children;' His voice penetrating the immensity of space so that all could hear it; it is decreed by the Great Eternal that the females shall not follow their males in their banishment, but for every male that has kept his first estate and fought valiantly for the Father and the Son, there are two females. Again it is decreed that those males who have taken no part in this great conflict shall keep their females and a race of servants shall they be.' I then saw that the notable ones who had taken such an interest in the rights of the Father and the Son were appointed to gather up those lone females whose companions had been cast down They were again placed in classes. each man having two females in the ranks behind him. I there saw that they were again taught in their classes, which now contained about three hundred. I next saw Michael and his companion proceed a long way off, to people the earth where Lucifer and his FOLLOWERS HAD BEEN CAST. As time passed, other notable ones followed as they were appointed. During all this time the classes met frequently, being taught by instructors appointed. Each member knew his or her own-place, and took it each time, and the best of order prevailed. They were asked, first the males, and then the females behind them, 'Will you obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, when you go to that earth?' Some would answer, yes, but not all. Some could be asked, Will you obey that law which placed the Gods on high? And in very few cases I would hear the females say, 'I want my own mate' Sometimes the question would be asked of a male, "Will you obey that higher law? and he would answer, 'I wish to enjoy myself with the females' Sometimes when the question would be asked of the females she would reply 'I wish to enjoy myself with the males.' Again the question would be asked of the males, 'If you will not join the Church of Christ, what do you wish to be? He would sometimes say, 'I wish to be a judge, or an officer of high rank among the people ' Then he would be asked, 'Will you sustain the laws of God and also the rights of all mankind?' and the answer in every instance was, 'yes. ' I saw there that those who were proficient in their classes were advanced more rapidly until they became most perfect in those heavenly teachings, but some males, even there in Heaven would neglect their females and their classes and not meet with them. They would go off, arm in arm, as men now go, not having any desire for their duties. I never saw a female leave her place in the class assigned her by the Heavenly powers. I saw Abraham, when he came back from the earth, and many of the notable ones, when they came back to be crowned I saw them step upon the platform of the Gods and receive their crowns, and enter into their exaltations. At last I saw the time when Joseph was to go forth, and the voice of the Great Eternal said, 'Oh, my neglected daughters, gather around these my faithful servants who have been faithful in teaching you the principles of righteousness and of our kingdom, that others may come up and have the chance to be glorified-'' I saw many of them gather around Joseph and form a ring with him and the Savior in the center. They made a covenant with him that they would meet him on the earth and help him establish that great work upon the earth. I saw many of them gather around Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and many other notable ones, and around many who have not become so notable. They formed rings around each of them with Christ in the center each time, for He rehearsed to them the Covenant. They would take each other by the hand, in the circle and bow their faces down to Him, in the center, and in the most solemn manner agree to meet them here, until every one of those neglected daughters was provided for; and they were filled with such joy that their songs made a paradise of the realm." "At last The time came for me to go to the earth. The Savior came to me and said, 'Mosiah, it is time for you to prepare to go. You have been faithful so long here it is time for you to go, that you may return and be as we are.' As I beheld Him, I thought, 'How is it that I am not as you are now? For it seemed, that I knew nothing of the earth or the changes a probation there would make in me. However, I said, 'Who will go down to that earth, and be my father, and help me that I may be brought in the ways of truth and righteousness?'' A male by the name of Levi stepped forth, in the presence of the Son, and said, 'I will go down to yonder earth, and by the help of the Great Eternal, I will try to do as well by you as you have done for me, for I am grateful to you for all your kindness to me.' He returned to his place, being an instructor of a class. I was one among others who was appointed to instruct him and the other teachers of classes. A female came out of the class and bowing before the Savior and me, said, 'I will go down and be your mother.' In a short time the man disappeared and was immediately followed by the woman. I knew my departure was near at hand and I asked, 'If on my return I could have the same position I then held.' Then the Savior said, Yes, and greater, but you have to go down to the earth, and take a lowly position and be misunderstood by man, even your brethren and endure many hardships ant set many examples of humility and patience, that you may return and enter the glory, even such as I have.' He then added, 'Your time is now come to take your mission to the earth,' and He laid His hands on my head, as He had done to others, and set me apart for that important mission. He again said to me, 'I will see you safely thru until you return again.' I fully believe on that promise. It seemed as though a way was opened before me, and I dived down toward the earth with the speed of lightening and awoke while sailing thru space. The End. Mosiah Hancock Subject: Mormon Thelema Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:47:52 -0400 From: proclus To: horuskings@starmail.com RE: http://members.xoom.com/horuskings/mormon_thelema.html proclus here. I'm the webmaster of the MutantRMs website. You may be interested in another site for your links. The Radical Mormon Thank you for your excellent work on the web. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Royal Arch Conferral Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:50:03 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Kerry Shirts , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net, "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 'proclus' References: 1 Well, fellow Mutants, it is 11:00 pm and I have just returned from a meeting in which I assisted in conferring the Holy Royal Arch degree on a group of 8 candidates, one of whom is a Past Master of a local Lodge, and now a member of my Royal Arch chapter. Art, I hope you don't mind... I made copies of your wonderful article on "The Mystery of the Royal Arch Word" for our candidates (yes, I provided full attribution), and distributed it to them immediately following the Key Lecture. I don't recall who said it, but you may have heard that, when one writer was questioned about what authors he liked, he responded: "any one who writes something I would have written if I had thought of it first." I find it quite unfortunate that Art wrote this particular article before I could get around to it! He even used several of my own favorite references, including more esoteric ones like the Sefer Yetzirah. Nicely done, nicely done. For those familiar with the Royal Arch ritual, I took the part of the Principal Sojourner, which contains quite a substantial amount of memory work. The evening went well, with hardly a hitch. I couldn't help but reflect on the massive numbers of similarities between the Holy Royal Arch Degree and its associated legenda, with the Mormon founding myths and the life and work of Joseph Smith. If I ever wanted a unique perspective from which to view the Restoration of the Gospel, then clearly "I have found it." Holiness to the Lord! On the 24th of this month, I will receive the Order of Knight Templar. The several degrees preceding this have been most gratifying, and I am very much looking forward to it. I guess I didn't fulfill my promise to "return and report," but I have been under the gun with memory work, family concerns, and other issues. I will indeed send a post in the near future, and share some of my general impressions with you. Take care, Joe Steve Swick III Si talia jungere possis sit tibi scire satis Re: Royal Arch Conferral Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:20:02 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Enoch Shemna CC: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net, "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 'proclus' References: 1 , 2 , 3 ___Joe Swick___ I guess I didn't fulfill my promise to "return and report," but I have been under the gun with memory work, family concerns, and other issues. I will indeed send a post in the near future, and share some of my general impressions with you. ___Todd J. Jumper___ I'll share my general impression right now- The masonic order is nothing but a Luciferian Religion who have controlled this country and kept it under opression since it was created, with the murders and secret acts and have defiled practically every church on this land. They are satanic and brainwashing many good men. Wo be unto the man who partakes of their wickedness. Thus saith the Lord. http://www.freeworldalliance.com/illuminati/ ----- Well, Todd -- since it is the LORD talking, and not just YOU, don't be shy! Feel free to share your opinions with the entire group. My first impulse is to call you an idiot and flame you mercilessly; however, I knew your views re: Freemasonry when I cast my lot to have you join this list. Please keep this in mind as we calmly and intelligently discuss our differences of opinions. For the time being, we might wish to leave both SATAN and the LORD out of the discussion, as such big personalities tend to distract and add emotional punch to the argument without adding much logic/reason. I'll review the ILLUMINATI site you have indicated -- I'm just SURE it's all nice and warm and friendly towards Freemasonry -- and I'll comment as appropriate. Or, you could point out specific areas which have influenced you the most, and we can discuss them. Take your pick. I rather think that I am far from brainwashed and Satanic. I also seriously doubt that Masons have made murder a part of their regular degree work; I have never seen it on a menu following a Masonic luncheon, and I can't imagine it happening in any of the many charities the Lodge supports (children's burn centers, speech disorder clinics, diabetes research, Templar eye foundation, children's heart fund, etc. etc. etc.) Aside from rehashes of the William Morgan stuff, I am willing to listen to all REASONABLE evidence that I might have overlooked. Cheers, Joe Swick High Priest, Carnation Chapter #59 Royal Arch Masons an anecdote Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:21:43 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna My Mom sent me this story, which I thought you would enjoy. Regards, proclus We have a brother in our ward who is a high mucky-muck in the church welfare system. He told us of an incident in Oklahoma after the tornadoes hit last month and did so much damage with lost of life. The Governor was thanking everyone a nd said two churches had done more to help them after the disaster than anyone else, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and ... The Mormons. -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Royal Arch Conferral Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:49:18 -0400 (EDT) From: ArtdeHoyos@aol.com To: jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com Hail, fellow mutants, It's been a while since I've written. We're anticipating a move shortly from Texas to Virginia and have been busy house-hunting, etc. I was pleased to see my fellow Illuminati member...oops!....fellow Mason, Jow Steve Swick's report: > Well, fellow Mutants, it is 11:00 pm and I have just returned from a meeting > in which I assisted in conferring the Holy Royal Arch degree on a group of 8 > candidates, one of whom is a Past Master of a local Lodge, and now a member > of my Royal Arch chapter. Art, I hope you don't mind... I made copies of > your wonderful article on "The Mystery of the Royal Arch Word" for our > candidates (yes, I provided full attribution), and distributed it to them > immediately following the Key Lecture. I don't recall who said it, but you > may have heard that, when one writer was questioned about what authors he > liked, he responded: "any one who writes something I would have written if I > had thought of it first." I find it quite unfortunate that Art wrote this > particular article before I could get around to it! He even used several of > my own favorite references, including more esoteric ones like the Sefer > Yetzirah. Nicely done, nicely done. I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of the article, Most Excellent Companion Joe. I do not mind at all that you shared it with our Companion Royal Arch Masons. I hope you'll also encourage your Companions to join the Scottish Rite Research Society, which printed the article. (http://www.srmason-sj.org/index.html) It's open to Masons and non-Masons. I dare say some things there would be of interest to our fellow mutants. In a message dated 6/18/99 11:24:40 PM Central Daylight Time, jswick@cris.com writes: > Well, Todd -- since it is the LORD talking, and not just YOU, don't be shy! > Feel free to share your opinions with the entire group. > > My first impulse is to call you an idiot and flame you mercilessly; however, > I knew your views re: Freemasonry when I cast my lot to have you join this > list. Please keep this in mind as we calmly and intelligently discuss our > differences of opinions. For the time being, we might wish to leave both > SATAN and the LORD out of the discussion, as such big personalities tend to > distract and add emotional punch to the argument without adding much > logic/reason. Toché! Bro. Joe, and so mote it be! Upon the level, by the square, ---Art deHoyos, 32°, KCCH, KYCH "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?" Find out: -- http://members.aol.com/adehoyos/chap1.htm ICQ: 8959739 -- AOL Instant Messenger: artdehoyos ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * Past Master and endowed life member, McAllen Lodge No. 1110, AF&AM of Texas; * Past Presiding Officer of all York Rite Bodies (Hidalgo York Rite Bodies), McAllen, Texas; * Grand Historian and Grand Archivist, Supreme Council, 33°, Southern Jurisdiction; * Member of the Resource Team, Ritual Committee, Supreme Council, 33°, Southern Jurisdiction; * Member of the Board of Directors and life member, Scottish Rite Research Society; * Grand Archivist; first recipient, Knight Grand Cross, Grand College of Rites, USA; * Ambassador-at-Large, San Antonio, TX, Valley, AASR; * Class Director, Santa Fe, NM, Valley, AASR; * Prelate, South Texas Conclave, Corpus Christi, TX, Red Cross of Constantine and Appendant Orders; * Societatis Rosicruciana in Civitatibus Foederatis; * Allied Masonic Degrees; * York Rite College; * Royal Order of Scotland ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Re: Royal Arch Conferral Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:00:57 +0000 From: "Robert R. Black" To: ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com References: 1 Joe, Art, How about shareing the article with us? Robert. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 19, 1999 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Royal Arch Conferral Hail, fellow mutants, It's been a while since I've written. We're anticipating a move shortly from Texas to Virginia and have been busy house-hunting, etc. I was pleased to see my fellow Illuminati member...oops!....fellow Mason, Jow Steve Swick's report: > Well, fellow Mutants, it is 11:00 pm and I have just returned from a meeting > in which I assisted in conferring the Holy Royal Arch degree on a group of 8 > candidates, one of whom is a Past Master of a local Lodge, and now a member > of my Royal Arch chapter. Art, I hope you don't mind... I made copies of > your wonderful article on "The Mystery of the Royal Arch Word" for our > candidates (yes, I provided full attribution), and distributed it to them > immediately following the Key Lecture. I don't recall who said it, but you > may have heard that, when one writer was questioned about what authors he > liked, he responded: "any one who writes something I would have written if I > had thought of it first." I find it quite unfortunate that Art wrote this > particular article before I could get around to it! He even used several of > my own favorite references, including more esoteric ones like the Sefer > Yetzirah. Nicely done, nicely done. I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of the article, Most Excellent Companion Joe. I do not mind at all that you shared it with our Companion Royal Arch Masons. I hope you'll also encourage your Companions to join the Scottish Rite Research Society, which printed the article. (http://www.srmason-sj.org/index.html) It's open to Masons and non-Masons. I dare say some things there would be of interest to our fellow mutants. In a message dated 6/18/99 11:24:40 PM Central Daylight Time, jswick@cris.com writes: > Well, Todd -- since it is the LORD talking, and not just YOU, don't be shy! > Feel free to share your opinions with the entire group. > > My first impulse is to call you an idiot and flame you mercilessly; however, > I knew your views re: Freemasonry when I cast my lot to have you join this > list. Please keep this in mind as we calmly and intelligently discuss our > differences of opinions. For the time being, we might wish to leave both > SATAN and the LORD out of the discussion, as such big personalities tend to > distract and add emotional punch to the argument without adding much > logic/reason. Toché! Bro. Joe, and so mote it be! Upon the level, by the square, ---Art deHoyos, 32°, KCCH, KYCH "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?" Find out: -- http://members.aol.com/adehoyos/chap1.htm ICQ: 8959739 -- AOL Instant Messenger: artdehoyos ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * Past Master and endowed life member, McAllen Lodge No. 1110, AF&AM of Texas; * Past Presiding Officer of all York Rite Bodies (Hidalgo York Rite Bodies), McAllen, Texas; * Grand Historian and Grand Archivist, Supreme Council, 33°, Southern Jurisdiction; * Member of the Resource Team, Ritual Committee, Supreme Council, 33°, Southern Jurisdiction; * Member of the Board of Directors and life member, Scottish Rite Research Society; * Grand Archivist; first recipient, Knight Grand Cross, Grand College of Rites, USA; * Ambassador-at-Large, San Antonio, TX, Valley, AASR; * Class Director, Santa Fe, NM, Valley, AASR; * Prelate, South Texas Conclave, Corpus Christi, TX, Red Cross of Constantine and Appendant Orders; * Societatis Rosicruciana in Civitatibus Foederatis; * Allied Masonic Degrees; * York Rite College; * Royal Order of Scotland ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Re: Royal Arch Conferral Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:23:19 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Enoch Shemna CC: jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com, RAZZ2017@aol.com References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 ___Todd J. Jumper___ The message was for you personally not everyone in the group, but if you want to bring it to the group go right ahead but I already know your intentions for doing so. ----- I am glad that you approve of my public posting. I don't suspect you *really* understand my intentions in wishing for this at all, but that is fine. That I have included RM members on the cc: line of this mailing is an indication of my future intention should you wish to continue this discussion with me. ___Todd J. Jumper___ As for my personal opinions, I hate to call it an opinion because its knowledge to me, knowledge of facts, knowledge of things I have been revealed and shown. An opinion is based upon belief. ----- It is only reasonable to expect that Truth apprehended through intuition be subject to similar rigorous testing as are truths revealed by rational/empirical means. The methods for understanding truth are not mutually exclusive, but essentially and inherently complementary. If your views are correct, then they are likely to have some firm connection somewhere with known facts of history. Otherwise, your anti-Masonic claims amount to little more than name-calling, justified with nothing more than "because [you] say so." I am more than happy to discuss any relevant facts you care to present. ___Todd J. Jumper___ I have several videos and documents which I can in free time dub off for you but knowing your character and your disbelief ----- My disbelief of anti-Masonic claims is a result of my own personal investigation into those claims. I do not blindly "disbelieve" any more than I blindly "believe." It is one of my small conceits that I trust myself to be honest in my handling of religious and historical facts. ___Todd J. Jumper___ understandingly you only believe what you can see with your physical eyes ----- Actually, and contrary to what you imply, I recognize INTUITION as a legitimate way of apprehending truth. I just don't expect others to believe what I come to understand in this way, unless I can provide them with some rational / empirical "evidence" which would lead them to do so. I further believe that a while it is not a pre-requisite for communication with the Almighty, generally, a well-exercised mind is more --not less-- responsive to inspiration. Finally, I am also open to the idea that what I *suspect* to be true, may not be the entire picture. Our understandings often come in fits and starts, and what we intuit (or apprehend by rational/empirical means) may only yield its full treasures after careful searching/digging/investigation. ___Todd J. Jumper___ even if I supply you all the evidence will it change your views on your decisions to join in such high degrees of a Luciferian religion? ----- While there is a special sense in which one might conceivably call Freemasonry a religion (e.g., in much the same way that public virtue is the requirement of the secular American religion, and the Constitution its scripture), Masonry is NOT a religion in the generally accepted meaning of the term. It does not offer ordinances which it holds to be salvific, and apart from the well-known requirement that one believe in God and the Immortality of the Soul, it generally makes no demands that its candidates subscribe to specific articles of religious faith in order to remain members. Such things are rightly and properly the concerns of religion, and Masonry does not have the right to dictate to its members on such matters of conscience. I should mention that Masonry was initially and fundamentally a Christian institution, and those who choose to receive the degrees of York Rite Masonry DO take an oath to defend the Christian religion. ___Todd J. Jumper___ I soon will have in my possession a video with ties to the masons/illuminati/satan worshippers of high occult members commiting a sacrifice of a live person which is straight from the FBI which was hidden for several years. I have on document several ex-masons and ex-government ops who witnessed the murders and lies and control of the masonic/skull and bones/illuminati. ----- Each of these claims must be evaluated carefully, as must the characters who make them. I have a book by Bill Schoebelen, who claims to have been a "high ranking Mason" and who wrote all about it in his book, "Masonry: Beyond the Light." It would be stretching charity to the point of dishonesty were I to call this book unintentionally confused. Mr. Schnoebelen intentionally lies where it suits his needs; he misrepresents Masonic history, teaching, and aims; he fabricates degrees and orders that have NEVER existed; he uses thoroughly discredited anti-Masonic works of the past without a mention of their questionable status/character. And, as is common among such antiMasonic "scroungers-for-a-dollar," his work is blatantly self-aggrandizing. Maybe you have never heard of Mr. Schnoebelen; however, I do not doubt that your "buddy" Mr. Hilbert has, and likely uses some of the same stories (they tend to get recycled by every new batch of critics). ___Todd J. Jumper___ My friend Anthony Hilder has been exposing this evidence for over 20 years now and has piles of documents with proof that this the masonic organization is Luciferian. ----- My friend Art deHoyos has been exposing the antics of Ed Decker, Ron Carlson, John Ankerberg, William Whalen and other such scroungers as your friend relies upon for his "evidence." Unlike your scrounger friend, who is careful not to reveal too much of his claims until you've plunked down your change, Art has kindly posted the entire contents of his own book, "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?" on the Internet, for all to read. He also openly discusses the charges of Masonry being a "Luciferian organization," in detail for all who care to read. This is posted here and there on the 'net, and I have simply chosen the one that came up in my search. Once the document has loaded, simply search for "lucifer." http://www.shriners-houston.org/Is_It_True.htm Also, here is a link to an article by S. Brent Morris. While clearly Brother Morris and I disagree on what Masonry IS, we DO agree on what Masonry IS NOT. His article is short, and worth your brief attention. http://www.msana.com/brent.html As for the claim that your friend can demonstrate that Masonry is "Luciferian," I would wonder what that might mean. Does he have evidence that the leaders of some Masonic bodies regularly meet with the Lord of Darkness himself, say, promptly at 4:00 pm every Thursday, for consultation on the next step in their Great and Illuminated Conspiracy to make all of mankind the ignorant but willing dupes of the Devil? ___Todd J. Jumper___ Many quotes from the leaders of free masonry claiming Lucifer is God and that they worship him, they speak of how the members of the lower levels of Free - masonry are brainwashed and to them everything looks fine and good but cleverly disguised to deceive them so that free-masonry grows through the world. ----- I don't suppose that you will come upon "many" such quotes. If rather suspect you are referring to the well-known hoax of Leo Taxil, in which he attributes to Albert Pike words which he never said, in an attempt to embarrass the Catholic Church, and make a few dollars while he was at it. You may read Jim Tresner's article at: http://152.175.34.164/council/journal/oct98/TRESNER.HTM If you would like to read my own comments (which refer to both Bro. Tresner and deHoyos' works), simply look up my discussions on ALT.RELIGION.MORMON, under "lucifer" or "taxil." ___Todd J. Jumper___ A candy coated piece of dung is all it is -It looks all good and right to you but its designed that way. ------ May your ears hear what your mouth has spoken (or eyes-read, fingers-typed if you prefer). ___Todd J. Jumper___ If you still are interested I will try to supply you with all the evidence but like I said why bother since you don't even listen to the promptings of the Lord about it ----- And your evidence that I don't listen to the promptings of the Lord about it, are that I disagree with you. This is precisely why it is not productive to discuss the "Lord" and the "Devil" at this point. It becomes little more than spiritual chest-puffing, and is not helpful at arriving at the facts. ___Todd J. Jumper___ like you said "Lets keep the Devil and Lord out of this." That is because you don't want to listen to what his has to say- ----- On the contrary. It is because my experiences in the past lead me to believe that God and the Devil are often called upon to legitimize what cannot be legitimized in any other way. At this point in our discussion, denouncing Masonry as "Satanic" or "Luciferian" amounts to little more than name-calling. Appeals to God similarly may be used to validate what the evidence cannot support. I suggest only that you present your evidence without the name-calling, and let others decide for themselves. If the "works of Masonry" are evil, then its nature will be evident from THAT, apart from any epithet you may or may not cast in its direction. ___Todd J. Jumper___ The Lord proves all things and even if I didn't have all this evidence which I can dub and copy for you the Lord's answer would be all I need on the situation. ----- As I have said, while you are free to receive your own revelation to guide your own behavior, I wouldn't expect that to guide the behavior of others, unless they trust your prophetic insight -- or unless you provide real "evidence" in which folks may place their faith. ___Todd J. Jumper___ I will not leave the Lord out of any discussion because I am with him and he is with me, if you want the Lord out of things then you should not any longer speak with me because then you will have no part of me as well. ----- This is a shuck and jive, Todd. Present your evidence, and I fully suspect that I will hear nothing that hasn't circulated through the anti-Masonry mill for many years. With, of course, the sole exception of your personal revelation (unsupported by even the slimmest of facts) that Willard Richards shot Joseph Smith as a part of a greater Masonic conspiracy against the Prophet. Cheers, Joe Steve Swick III SD, Verity Lodge # 59, Kent, Washington HP, Carnation #29, Royal Arch Masons Seattle Council #6 Royal and Select Masters 32° A&ASR, Valley of Salt Lake, Orient of Utah Member, Scottish Rite Research Society, Member, Philalethes Society +++ +++++ +++++++ VISIT the final resting place of all good Illuminati/ Alien/ Cthulhu/ Mormon/ Freemason/ K of C/ World Domination conspiracies and rants! Protection from the MOJO! FNORD http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/ THE ILLUMINATI DO NOT EXIST. REALLY. This message brought to you by the Illuminati. Subject: Re: Royal Arch Conferral Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:47:46 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man ___Joe Swick___ ___Todd J. Jumper___ Congrats Joe. We have previously discussed Royal Arch at length, and I think that it is safe to say that there would be no Mormonism as we know it without Royal Arch. It is all in the archives for anyone who cares to read it. If this means that the innermost rituals of Mormonism take their origins from Luciferian roots, then sobeit. If we must bear the light, let us bear it well. As far as I am concerned, our masonic brothers will always be welcome in this circle of ours. Now a word about that beguiling forward button. It is easy for me to see why someone would be bothered by their messages being forwarded without their knowledge. My wife gets bothered, if I even mention her online. If I forward her messages, I get the couch for the night! On the other hand, I consider this group not only as a discussion group, but as an intimate circle of initiates. I feel that we should freely bring in the peripheral issues, so that they can be examined in the light of perfect love and perfect trust. That is why I immediately posted my conversation with Dave, when he requested it. We can handle this deep examination. No one here is a child that shrinks from the probing light of the all-seeing eye. I understand that the situation between me and Dave was not precisely analogous to that between Joe and Enoch. Nevertheless, I feel that the same principles apply. Information wants to be free. __Robert__ How about shareing the article with us? I second that. Is it available online? ___Todd J. Jumper___ even if I supply you all the evidence will it change your views on your decisions to join in such high degrees of a Luciferian religion? Pass me a cup of that old time religion. Let us sprinkle the world. How can we apprehend the white without knowing purple. The Illuminati is me and my friends. ___Joe Swick___ He also openly discusses the charges of Masonry being a "Luciferian organization," in detail for all who care to read. This is posted here and there on the 'net, and I have simply chosen the one that came up in my search. Once the document has loaded, simply search for "lucifer." Search for Lucifer? Funny funny, Joe! Here's the problem. I skimmed Morals and Dogma on my mission. I was in Milford, Pennsylvania, which is Pike's home town or something. Lots of stuff is named after him there. It was a really ancient copy of the book =). I seem to remember that the Luciferian stuff IS in Pikes book. I could be wrong about that, I suppose. It has been a few years ;-}. Pike also has those wonderful quotes about Sirius in there. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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