If you want to join the discussion, just click here..
Back up to Mutant's Home

Subject: [Fwd: proclus' server] Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:23:18 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: proclus' server Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:05:11 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Gaia , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , I see that someone (one of you, I hope ;-) was trying to access gods.html. I've had to make my server a little more secure. You will need to get access by typing user: geek, password: indulgence. Here's the link again. http://medici.penguinpowered.com/gods.html Also, don't forget that you need to select "reply all", if you want your comments to go out to the whole list. Otherwise, your replies just go to the originator of the message. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: recent radical stuff] Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:58:15 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Subject: [Fwd: recent radical stuff] Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:23:02 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: Re: recent radical stuff Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:02:42 -0800 (PST) From: Gaia D To: proclus RE: TARGETING ABUSIVE POLYGAMISTS PROCLUS: What a travesty, fighting a human right in the name of human rights. ... I think that the fathers are weeping. We have sadly lost the promises. GAIA_D: I understand your concern, but the truth is that spouse and child abuse are *major* problems among male-dominated, fundamentalist households. There are MANY men practicing polygyny who are FAR from being the kind of patriarchs which JS had in mind when he instituted polygamy. Unless a man makes a very concerted effort to remain humble, abuse absolutely *thrives* in the closed-in-on-itself, incestuous atmosphere of fundamentalism, where each man is encouraged to think of himself as God's mouthpiece. There are *many* stories of young girls under 14, being forced to accept old men (to whom they may be related in the closed social polygamous groups) as husbands. Once they are married at such young ages, they have little or no experience as independent, autonomous beings and it is nearly imppossible for them to get out of bad situations. The article stressed the fact that the authorities do not intend to target polygamists per se, only those who may be guilty of abuse. In light of this, it may be a very great blessing to many women and children. Gaia_D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [Fwd: recent radical stuff] Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:58:41 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: recent radical stuff]] Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 19:37:48 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus Subject: Re: [Fwd: recent radical stuff] Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:36:18 -0800 (PST) From: Gaia D To: proclus PROCLUS: We don't say that marriage or fatherhood is evil, just because there are evil fathers. GAIA: Very true. Such men maybe should have been investigated for child or spousalabuse, not for polygamy. It is unconstitutional and offensive to human rights to pursue polygamy charges at all. GAIA: That's what i understood the article to be saying, actually. ;-> PROCLUS: I have already "committed" polygamy in my heart ;=}... get me to the sealing room, the mirrored bridal chamber! GAIA: Heheheh.....know wha'cha mean! Hey, ENORMOUS congrats on your dissertation! What is it on? And yes, i'd be happy to have this exchange on the list, if you think it's appropriate. Great to "talk" with you - Gaia -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [Fwd: recent radical stuff] Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:59:00 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Subject: Re: [Fwd: recent radical stuff] Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:25:59 -0500 From: proclus To: Gaia D , proclus References: 1 > PROCLUS: > What a travesty, fighting a human right in the > name of human rights. ... I think that the fathers are > weeping. We have sadly lost the promises. > > GAIA_D: > I understand your concern, but the truth is that > spouse and child abuse are *major* problems among > male-dominated, fundamentalist households. > There are MANY men practicing polygyny who are FAR > from being the kind of patriarchs which JS had in mind > when he instituted polygamy. In my limited experience, I would say that you are right here. Nonetheless, polygamy is a human and religious right. There is no worthiness tests for it in the vast majority of polygamous societies. We don't say that marriage or fatherhood is evil, just because there are evil fathers. > There are *many* > stories of young girls under 14, being forced to > accept old men (to whom they may be related in the > closed social polygamous groups) as husbands. > Once they are married at such young ages, they have > little or no experience as independent, autonomous > beings and it is nearly imppossible for them to get > out of bad situations. Gaia, thanks so much for pointing this out. These days I'm a cloistered cranky intellectual. I had almost forgotten about some young ladies that I once knew who faced just this kind of situation and much worse. It was very sad and tragic indeed. Such men maybe should have been investigated for child or spousal abuse, not for polygamy. It is unconstitutional and offensive to human rights to pursue polygamy charges at all. > The article stressed the fact that the authorities do > not intend to target polygamists per se, only those > who may be guilty of abuse. In light of this, it may > be a very great blessing to many women and children. I hope that you are right in this. I'm sorry that I don't have the time to double check, with my dissertation preparations and all. It is my recollection that the articles were very prejudicial towards polygamy, per se. Such predjudice would receive my strongest objection. I am just three generations from beautiful, righteous polygamy. I seek the blessings of the fathers, and I will not betray my heretage. I have already "committed" polygamy in my heart ;=}... get me to the sealing room, the mirrored bridal chamber! Warmest Regards, proclus BTW, Perhaps you intended this to be forwarded to the whole list; that is OK with me. If so, just forward it along or let me know, and I will. Otherwise, that's OK too ;-}. -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: [Fwd: recent radical stuff] Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 14:08:39 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , References: 1 proclus wrote: > Such men maybe should have been investigated for child > or spousalabuse, not for polygamy. It is > unconstitutional and offensive to human rights > to pursue polygamy charges at all. > > GAIA: > That's what i understood the article to be saying, > actually. ;-> Ah good. What a relief! > PROCLUS: > I have already "committed" polygamy in my heart > ;=}... get me to the sealing room, the mirrored > bridal chamber! > > GAIA: > Heheheh.....know wha'cha mean! (proclus grinz) > Hey, ENORMOUS congrats on your dissertation! What is > it on? I'm studying skeletal and heart muscle regulation. We have described the structural basis of the Ca2+ switch, at least in part. That is what turns on the muscle. I am pretty excited, becuause this will really turn the wheels, stir the pot as it were, especially in drug development. Ahh, it's "top secret" stuff for now, but my prospects appear to be very good. That is why I am sooo swamped right now. Thanks for asking. > And yes, i'd be happy to have this exchange on the > list, if you think it's appropriate. > Great to "talk" with you - > Gaia Then, Here it is; yes and very nice indeed! Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Prop. 22 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 20:34:31 PST From: "rpc man" To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eaglehost.com, JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, onandagus@webtv.net, tpfamily@dotplanet.net, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, I haven't posted in years but thought I'd send this along in light of the fact that the election is about 48 hours away. Protect 
Bigotry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Subject: Quinn responds to the Tanners Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:23:27 -0500 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Gaia D http://www.california.com/~rpcman/MO2.HTM THAT was a fabulous read. Is this for real? Regards, proclus Subject: [Fwd: Radical Mormon channel] Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:11:52 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus@medici.penguinpowered.com Subject: Radical Mormon channel Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:58:56 -0500 From: proclus To: proclus@medici.penguinpowered.com (wide field broadcast) OK, now you can add The Radical Mormon channel to your MyNetscape page! Here's the link. http://my.netscape.com/addchannel.tmpl?service=net.2059 Enjoy! If you are into this wonderful syndication stuff, we should talk. Here is the address of the XML file, and a nice example of the html that can be generated from it. radical.rss http://medici.penguinpowered.com/rss_pngs/rad.html Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Incarnations of Joseph Smith Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:36:59 -0800 From: "Enoch Theos" To: "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Dave" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Joe Steve Swick III" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "Robert R. Black" , "rpc man" , Hello mutants, I was wondering if anyone out there knows of any of the other incarnations of Joseph Smith Jr., I think it may have been this list where I read that Joseph Smith was Merlin and helped gather the round table, like he gathered the quorum of the 50. I was also told in revelation once that Joseph Smith Jr. was also Joseph, the earthly father of Jesheuwa (Jesus Christ) I was told by a medium that St. Germain works with me and that he calls me Enoch, Joseph Smith appeared to me years ago and told me my name was Enoch. As I was doing some research on the past incarnations of St. Germain I saw that he was Merlin and Joseph, the earthly father of Jesus. Enoch Theos Subject: Re: Incarnations of Joseph Smith Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:29:52 -0500 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: enoch144@eaglehost.com CC: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , onandagus@webtv.net, "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Gaia D References: 1 There is a lot of St. Germain stuff that comes out of the "I AM" movement that originated on MT. Shasta (1930's). There were a number of groups that eventually came out from them, one being the Church Universal Triumphant (CUT) which was founded by Mark L. Prophet and Elizabeth Clare Prophet in the late 1950's. CUT now has its headquarters in Montana and I understand that it is struggling right now. Mark Prophet died a long time ago and Elizabeth Prophet has a nervous disorder that affects her memory. One can search the web and get quite a bit of info on CUT and other groups that arose out of the "I AM" movement. Anyway, in the CUT books (eg. the Lost Teachings of Jesus), they say that St. Germain was also incarnated as: Samuel the Prophet (of the OT) Joseph, the husband of Mary and father of Jesus Christopher Columbus Francis Bacon (who is thought by some to be the real Shakesphere) St. Germain (achieved ascension) but, may have come back later as the son of Prince Rakoczy II They also maintain that St. Germain works with many individuals now as an ascended master. No mention of JS or that St. Germain is embodied at the present time in any of the "I AM" movement writings. Randall Enoch Theos wrote: > > Hello mutants, > > I was wondering if anyone out there knows of any of the other incarnations > of Joseph Smith Jr., I think it may have been this list where I read that > Joseph Smith was Merlin and helped gather the round table, like he gathered > the quorum of the 50. > > I was also told in revelation once that Joseph Smith Jr. was also Joseph, > the earthly father of Jesheuwa (Jesus Christ) > > I was told by a medium that St. Germain works with me and that he calls me > Enoch, Joseph Smith appeared to me years ago and told me my name was Enoch. > As I was doing some research on the past incarnations of St. Germain I saw > that he was Merlin and Joseph, the earthly father of Jesus. > > Enoch Theos Subject: corporatization v. the pearl Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 22:50:54 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Gaia D Hail Mutants! I'm taking a little break from my thesis to hammer out a new story for the Radical. Let me know what you think, and please feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion area, if you like. Be anonymous, or not, if you choose. Conference Center is a watershed The Church has some high quality images of the Conference Center here, http://www.lds.org/med_inf/pre_kit_cc/pre_kit.html and here. http://www.lds.org/med_inf/gen_con_pho/index.html We are in a new world. Events like this conference, and the Palmyra Temple http://www.lds.org/med_inf/pre_kit_pt/pre_kit.html narrowcast are evidence that the Church is in the thick of the great change that is overtaking us. Much was made of this point in conference, both for and against. Were your ears open? Where do you stand? Should we be talking about corporatization or a stone cut without hands? Either way, it fills the world. In Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein called this type of situation a "moment of crux". More comments and stories here. http://greenspun.com/com/radical.mormon/conference.html Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ I was on the Mutant site and read the interesting story that was linked in the Deseret News about DNA and genealogy. I wonder if this whole thing will not be a two edged sword for BYU and LDSdoom in a similar fashion as the rediscovery of the Egyptian papyri (ie. the Book of Abraham) in the NY Museum of Art in the 1960's. Woodward is a name that I am familiar with and I think that he is expert at grandstanding his work, despite its low quality. Most folks forget his (research) article that appeared in Science Magazine about 10 years ago where he reported the first cloning of dinosar DNA. It was a big plug for BYU and they beat the drum about it quite a bit. That is, until it became one of those embarrassments (like cold fusion) when it was reported (in Science) that his dinosaur DNA was a PCR artifactual amplification of a bacterial DNA. Then there was the usual silence (of denial that it happened) that comes after such embarassments. More recently, Woodward has been making his news by doing analysis of DNA from mummies. Fellows like Charles Pope are quoting Woodward a lot in their own stuff about Moses, David and Solomon being Egyptian pharoah's. Here is Pope's interesting website if you don't know what I am talking about: http://members.aol.com/ankhemmaat/home.htmAt any rate, the two-edged sword may cut on the return path again when Woodward's work is cited (by fellows like Pope) as evidence contradictiory to LDS dogma. It will be interesting to see what happens. In the case of the papyri, the church covered it over pretty good by hiding them in its vaults and never mentioning the incident again. We, the moron masses, have very short memories. There is some irony here too, since Woodward has seemed to have kept his reputation intact and is still a poster boy of BYU, despite the embarassing (yet forgotten) scandal that emerged from his (and BYU's) earlier attempt at fame. Well, it is a pretty interesting story. Randall Well, today I guess I will fill my yearly quota of two emails to the mutants. (c: Yes, I am a bit surprised over your assessment of the conference center, but I guess I have gotten more radical as time has marched on. One of the things that floored me this past year was reading a book called "Prophet of Death: The Blood Atonement Murders" which was a chronicle of Jeffrey Lundgren and his followers. Jeffrey was a self-proclaimed prophet that broke off from the RLDS, but later espoused many of the doctrines that Brigham did, such as polygamy, the united order, blood atonement, etc. Parts of the book were so disgusting that they can not be talked about in good company. One of the things that floored me were the words that "prophet jeffrey" spoke. I found them to be identical to what so many folks (like us) say on email lists like the Mutants, David's Outcasts, Shulemna, etc. I wonder if Mormonism often breeds an type of insanity that causes men to increase in unGodliness rather than the opposite. Anyway, back to the conference center, I think that there is another side that is plain, yet unrecognized by many. It is built right into the structures in perfect symbolism. The conference center has a two inch face of granite covering a structure of manmade stone (concrete) and much of the structure is underground. These point to two things. One is the facade of godliness, the other being (spiritual) death. Symbols like this are built into the new temples (eg. Palmyra) too. Old temples had many floors, which represented the progress of man from the lower to the higher levels. The baptism font for the dead works for the dead were underground. However, in the Palmyra temple, there is only one floor. One enters the baptismal from the same level as houses the celestial room. It seems the multi-levels of temples past have been squeezed into one level, all of it being "ground level" today. I think that these symbols tell us the unfortunate reality of contemporary mormonism. Randall proclus wrote: > > Hail Mutants! I'm taking a little break from my thesis to hammer out a > new story for the Radical. Let me know what you think, and please feel > free to add your thoughts to the discussion area, if you like. Be > anonymous, or not, if you choose. > > Conference Center is a watershed > > The Church has some high quality images of the Conference Center here, > > http://www.lds.org/med_inf/pre_kit_cc/pre_kit.html> > and here. > > http://www.lds.org/med_inf/gen_con_pho/index.html> > We are in a new world. > > Events like this conference, and the Palmyra > Temple > > http://www.lds.org/med_inf/pre_kit_pt/pre_kit.html> > narrowcast are > > evidence that the Church is in the thick of the great > change that is > overtaking us. Much was made of this point in conference, both for and > against. > Were your ears open? Where do you stand? Should we be talking about > corporatization or a stone cut without hands? Either way, it fills the > world. In > Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein called this type of > situation a "moment > of crux". More comments and stories here. > > http://greenspun.com/com/radical.mormon/conference.html> > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE > BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- > !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G > e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: gods.html Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:37:17 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Gaia D I see that someone was trying to access the file again. Don't forget; username: geek, password: indulgence. Here's the address again. http://medici.penguinpowered.com/gods.html Haven't heard much from anyone of late. I hope that you are all well. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: gods.html Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:31:55 PDT From: "rpc man" To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, enoch144@eaglehost.com, JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, onandagus@webtv.net, tpfamily@dotplanet.net, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia_d@yahoo.com >Haven't heard much from anyone of late. I hope that you are all well. Well, I'm getting excommunicated in a week or so. I guess that will make me well. ;) http://www.lds-mormon.com/myexcommunication.shtml ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Subject: RE: gods.html Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:00:28 -0700 From: "Joe Steve Swick III" To: "rpc man" , , , , , , , , , , , , , RPC man! Congratulations/condolences on your excommunication. Best Wishes Always, Joe Swick Heretic -----Original Message----- From: rpc man [mailto:rpcman@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 8:32 PM To: proclus@mac.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; ariel144@hotmail.com; enoch144@eaglehost.com; JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM; kathleen@enol.com; kshaw@dalsemi.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; onandagus@webtv.net; tpfamily@dotplanet.net; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; black@accex.net; rpcman@hotmail.com; gaia_d@yahoo.com Subject: Re: gods.html >Haven't heard much from anyone of late. I hope that you are all well. Well, I'm getting excommunicated in a week or so. I guess that will make me well. ;) http://www.lds-mormon.com/myexcommunication.shtml ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Subject: RE: gods.html Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 23:13:23 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: rpc man , "proclus@mac.com" , "MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com" , "ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" , "ariel144@hotmail.com" , "enoch144@eaglehost.com" , "kathleen@enol.com" , "kshaw@dalsemi.com" , "shirtail@cyberhighway.net" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "tpfamily@dotplanet.net" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" , "black@accex.net" , "gaia_d@yahoo.com" , "'Joe Steve Swick III'" ---------- From: Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 11:00 PM To: rpc man; proclus@mac.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; ariel144@hotmail.com; enoch144@eaglehost.com; kathleen@enol.com; kshaw@dalsemi.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; onandagus@webtv.net; tpfamily@dotplanet.net; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; black@accex.net; gaia_d@yahoo.com Subject: RE: gods.html RPC man! Congratulations/condolences on your excommunication. Best Wishes Always, Joe Swick Heretic Kerry says: LAUGH!!!! You guys crack me up man. Hey RPCMan, I will always look at you as a good soul and my brother, even though I harass you about some of your silly ideas and misconceptions about the Book of Abraham (Not that I don't have any of these myself! GRIN!). Kerry A. Shirts -----Original Message----- From: rpc man [mailto:rpcman@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 8:32 PM To: proclus@mac.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; ariel144@hotmail.com; enoch144@eaglehost.com; JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM; kathleen@enol.com; kshaw@dalsemi.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; onandagus@webtv.net; tpfamily@dotplanet.net; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; black@accex.net; rpcman@hotmail.com; gaia_d@yahoo.com Subject: Re: gods.html >Haven't heard much from anyone of late. I hope that you are all well. Well, I'm getting excommunicated in a week or so. I guess that will make me well. ;) http://www.lds-mormon.com/myexcommunication.shtml ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Subject: RE: gods.html Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 23:36:21 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Gaia D , "'proclus'" I am very well so far thanks. A most interesting file I have to admit.......This is the first I have ever seen it. Thanks for the accesss. Kerry A. Shirts ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 6:37 PM To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Enoch Shemna; Joe Steve Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts; onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge; Robert R. Black; rpc man; Gaia D Subject: gods.html I see that someone was trying to access the file again. Don't forget; username: geek, password: indulgence. Here's the address again. http://medici.penguinpowered.com/gods.html Haven't heard much from anyone of late. I hope that you are all well. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Howdy from Ken Shaw! Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:54:31 -0500 From: Ken Shaw To: proclus@mac.com Proclus, I've been out of the picture for a while, as I've been deeply involved with putting my marriage back together. I'm sending on a piece I wrote on Sufism that I would like to ask that you pass it on to the gang. I'm working on the Sufi thing in a much less obsessive way and am gaining a whole new respect for the traditions and doctrines of the LDS faith. If you still got an email list going, please put me on it. Con Dios, Ken Shaw --------------------------------------- An overview of "Universal Sufism" Dr. H. J. Witteveen by Ken Shaw Introductory Comments: The author of "Universal Sufism", Dr. H. J. Witteveen, grew up in a family that was deeply involved with the work of Hazrat Inayat Khan, an Indian classical musician and Sufi who attempted to introduce Sufism into the West in the first years of this century. The pupose of the book is to present an introduction and overview of both Sufism and the life and work of Hazrat Inayat Khan. Chapter One: The History and Origin of Sufism Dr. Witteveen takes the position that Sufism is a living continuation of the religious tradition of Ancient Egypt, especially the tradition of Toth-Hermes who became known as Hermes Trismegistus in Hellenistic times. He sees Dhul-Nun al-Misti as the connecting link between Islamic Sufism and the Hermetic tradition of Hellenistic Egypt. He quotes Hazrat Inayat Khan as saying that Abraham built the Kaaba after his time in Egypt, and that Abraham concentrated his inner force into the Black Stone of the Kaaba as a memorial of the training he had recieved in Egypt. Dhul-Nun is of special interest to people in the West because he is the founder of the Sufi school called "The Builders" which was the inspiration of the Masonic Lodges of Europe. Dhul-Nun is said to have learned to read the Egyptian Hieroglyphs by means of the special insight he devolped by the diciplines of the Path. Dr. Witteveen sees the next key figure in the development of Sufism to be in Persia by Shihabuddin Yahya al-Suhrawardi. Suhrawardi worked out a brilliantly coherant synthesis of Islam, Egyptian Hermeticism, Zoroastrianism, Neoplatonism and Buddhism. Dr. Witteveen notes the importance of Moses and Jesus in Persian Sufism, Moses being mentioned as often as Krishna is in Hinduism. He sees the Jesus as the main influence on the next key figure in the development of Sufism, Mansur al-Hallaj. Al-Hallaj proclaimed the "Sufi Secret" openly in public, and it cost him his life. He understood what Jesus meant when He said "whoever has seen Me has seen the Father" and "the Father and I are one". Sufism understands "The Father" to be "The-Whole-of-Existence-Itself" which is a single living being. In this view, "God" is the only "Being" that exists at all, and the various orders of "individual" organisms are like minute "reflections" of that Absolute Self in the ripples of Space-Time. Each one of us is like a "Holographic Projection" of that One Self, our experience of "seperatness" coming from our identification with the electro-chemical organic machine which is picking up our conciousness like a radio station. Jesus followed a Path that allowed Him to "Realize the Self" and awaken to His true identity, the One Absolute Self who is God. It was like a person in a dream realizing that he is in a dream and becoming fully conscious in that dream. He is both the "dreamer" of the dream and one of the characters in the dream, but he realizes the truth of both the "waking world" and the "dreaming world" he is in. The first followers of Jesus refered to what they were doing as "The Way", and they understood "the Way" to be a tradition of "inner development" that went back to the begining of man's presence on Earth. The Sufis believe that they are following this very same Way. Al-Hallaj began to announce his own awakening to his friends in no uncertain terms when he said to them: "Ana' al Haqq" -- "I Am The Truth" The word got out that Al-Hallaj was proclaiming that he was God, and the orthodox religious authorities of Baghdad had him arrested. He was eventualy crucified and dismembered for his "crime", but his passion changed the course of history in the East and the West and established Sufism as a permanent feature of Islamic life. Dr. Witteveen points out that later Beyazid Bastami was able to proclaim "Glory to Me" and come to no harm, because Al-Hallaj had forced Islamic civilization to come to terms with the paradoxes of mystical realization. He points out the importance of the city of Balkh in Turkistan for its ancient connections to Buddhism and Yoga from India. Balkh is the birthplace of "sober" Sufism which places more emphasis on silent concentration and psychological insight than on the more outwardly "religious" forms of devotion. Dr. Witteveen finishes this chapter with the introduction of Sufism into India, where it began to bridge the gulf between Islam and Hinduism and heal some of the deep wounds that seperated the two communities. The Hindu sages and yogis could see eye-to-eye with the Sufis and embrace them as brethren, and the tombs of Sufi saints are revered as much by Hindus as they are by Muslims in India. My only real problem with this brief overview of Sufi history is that it never mentions Muhammed or the tradition that has survived among the Arabs since the days of Abraham. Moses went to Jethro, "Priest of the Midianites" in the Arabian desert to find shelter and a new direction for his life. The Midianites were a fierce Bedouin people who had lived in the Arabian peninsula since the time of Abraham their father. They lived in deep devotion to the God of their father Abraham, "Yahu Saboath" (Yahu of Warriors), and it was while with Jethro that Moses met the God of Abraham who called Himself "Yahue" (Eternal) and "Hayah" (I Am). The Midianite Arabs had kept the living contact with the God a Abraham alive, and it was from them that Moses got the key to his own Prophetic mission. There is a whole story to be learned about how Jethro came to Moses and the Israelites after the Exodus and taught Moses how to be a tribal Chief. The decendants of Jethro accompanied the Camp of Israel from then on and kept alive thier secret tribal traditions. These decendants of Jethro where later known as the Rechabites in the Land of Israel, where they kept alive their ancient Abrahamic Bedouine lifestyle, never touching wine or cutting their hair or beards. It was from them that the tradition of the "Nazarite" came, which came from the word "Netzerim" which means "Keepers of Secrets". The decendants of Jethro, the Rechabites, where the "Keepers of Secrets" that kept the ancient Abrahamic mysteries alive and functioning until the coming of Jesus and his brother James the Just. So Sufism isn't just an amalgam of various streams of esotericism from Egypt to India, it is the true core of the whole Biblical tradition that comes down from Adam to Seth to Enoch to Noah to Melchezidek to Abraham to Moses to Jesus to Muhammed. Kenneth Shaw posted on the Donmeh forum Fri, 21 May 1999 Subject: A Suprising View for Your Consideration Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:00:21 -0700 From: "Joe Steve Swick III" To: CC: "Mormon-Mystic@Egroups. Com" Brutal Planet (Alice Cooper) Download the MP3 at: http://www.alicecoopershow.com We're spinning round on this ball of hate There's no parole, there's no Great Escape We're sentenced here until the end of days And then, my brother, there's a price to pay We're only human, we were born to die Without the benefit of reason why We live for pleasure, to be satisfied And now it's over -- there's no place to hide Why don't you come down, too It's such a brutal planet It's such an ugly world Why won't you come down, too "This world is such perfection" (What a sight) "It's just like paradise" (For my eyes) "A truly grand creation" (What a sight) "From up here it looks so nice" (For my eyes) It's such a brutal planet It's such a living hell It was a holy garden That's right where Adam fell It's where the bite was taken It's where we chose to sin It's where we first were naked This is where our death begins We took advice from that deceiving snake He said don't worry it's a piece of cake And sent us swimming in a burning lake Now we're abandoned here for Heaven's sake Why don't you come down, too It's such a brutal planet It's such an ugly world Why won't you come down, too "This world is such perfection" (What a sight) "It's just like paradise" (For my eyes) "A truly grand creation" (What a sight) "From up here it looks so nice" (For my eyes) Here's where we keep the armies Here's where we write those names Here's where the money god is Here's our famous hall of shame Here's where we starve the hungry Here's where we cheat the poor Here's where we beat the children Here is where we pay the whore Why don't you come down, too It's such a brutal planet It's such an ugly world Why won't you come down, too "This world is such perfection" (What a sight) "It's just like paradise" (For my eyes) "A truly grand creation" (What a sight) "From up here it looks so nice" (For my eyes) Right here we stoned the prophets Built idols out of mud Right here we fed the lions Christian flesh and Christian blood Down here is where we hung Ya Upon an ugly cross Over there, we filled the ovens Right here the holocaust! Subject: radical stories etc Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:28:51 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man Heh, with the "demise" of World Gems, this increases our profile, no? It's mostly fluff over there at lds.org. Here are the most recent stories from the Radical. The Invasion of the Saints! Thanks to Genee France for this interesting story at Time.com from a perspective that is often forgotten in Mormon circles. Here is the link, and add your comments here. LDS World Gems bites the big one The Church has brought Gems inside and now controls the most popular solely online LDS News source. Check the link here, then speak your mind here. Here is a link to the Radical, just in case you lost it =}. http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/ As a result of the merger, we need more websites for the sidebar of the radical. If you have any suggestions, just pass them along. Hey, how about Mormon Libertarians! Actually, I'm favoring the Greens this time around. The trouble is that the term "free trade" has become a euphemism that actually provides propoganda towards monopoly protection. Here is a little more news... I'm planning on taking a post-doctoral fellowship at Cornell, which is in Ithaca NY. More on that later, as the plan gets fleshed out. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: [Fwd: mutant discussions] Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:25:04 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: proclus CC: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man References: 1 Sorry for the late reply, I am reading emails about once a week now. Yes, I have had contact with Steve and have spoken to him by phone as well as emails. He is a genuine seeker that fits the mutant description as well as an American living in Japan. Good fellow. Randall > proclus wrote: > > This is a little strange... just a blank email to the list. Does > anyone > know this person? > > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- > !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G > e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: mutant discussions > Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:06:59 +0900 > From: "steve skinner" > To: > > Subject: Re: radical stories etc Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:28:19 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: proclus CC: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man References: 1 Mike. Ithaca is not far from home. My son was up there about a week ago. So if you end up there, maybe we will cross paths again, almost like the Purdue days, excepting the fact that we will not likely see each other in church. (c: Randall proclus wrote: > > Heh, with the "demise" of World Gems, this increases our profile, no? > It's mostly fluff over there at lds.org. Here are the most recent > stories from the Radical. > > The Invasion of the Saints! > Thanks to Genee France for this interesting story at Time.com from a > perspective > that is often forgotten in Mormon circles. Here is the link, and add > your comments > here. > > LDS World Gems bites the big one > The Church has brought Gems inside and now controls the most popular > solely online > LDS News source. Check the link here, then speak your mind here. > > Here is a link to the Radical, just in case you lost it =}. > > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/ > > As a result of the merger, we need more websites for the sidebar of the > radical. If you have any suggestions, just pass them along. Hey, how > about Mormon Libertarians! Actually, I'm favoring the Greens this time > around. The trouble is that the term "free trade" has become a > euphemism that actually provides propoganda towards monopoly protection. > > Here is a little more news... I'm planning on taking a post-doctoral > fellowship at Cornell, which is in Ithaca NY. More on that later, as > the plan gets fleshed out. > > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- > !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G > e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: "Holy Eroticism" in Islam Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:54:56 -0500 From: Ken Shaw To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu CC: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , kenneth.d.shaw@worldnet.att.net References: 1 , 2 Islam Liberated Women. Will Durant, after studying the best archaeological evidence, wrote in The Story of Civilization that slavery always followed the subjugation of women, and may actually have been caused by it. (The same has been said about the subjugation of women in Islam developing at same time as extensive slavery in the Abbasid period. The Prophet Muhammad not only encouraged the freeing of slaves, he raised women's status and gave them their rights. His friends accused him of being ruled by his wives!) Patriarchal Christianity in the early Middle Ages condemned women as inferior and the cause of sin, and enforced the most repressive rules ever. How they could have done this in the name of the gentle prophet Jesus Christ is beyond understanding. It was only when the benign influence of Islam and Sufism began to make itself felt in Europe that Christendom began to ease up on its misogyny. The Sufis honored women because of their high spiritual significance. The Qur'ān teaches sacred sex in a couple of verses, and the Sufis developed the mysticism of Divine Love growing out of human eros. For example, witness Ibn al-?Arabī?s mystical erotic poetry in the Tarjumān al-ashwāq, and his exposition of sacred sex in the Fusūs al-hikam. The High Middle Ages of Europe arose from contact with Islamic civilization. Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine (1122-1204) was a key figure in this (and according to Idries Shah she was descended from Prophet Muhammad). At her Court of Love at Poitiers, she was a great patroness of the arts and encouraged the troubadors who sang of courtly love, i.e. spiritualized eros, which came from Sufism. She promoted the idea that real men loved and honored women, rather than fighting feudal wars or becoming monks. After this, Western civilization began to soften toward women, and the veneration of Mary came to the forefront. However, sacred sex had to remain underground in Christianity and could only be detected in the veiled, symbolic language of the poets and the alchemists. The French troubador Peire Vidal (fl. 1200) said in one of his poems: "I think I see God when I look on my lady nude." He was put on trial and nearly burned at the stake. The West may feel proud for thinking it invented "Women's Liberation" in the recent past, but considering the extreme misogyny of early Christianity, how could that have come about? The first raise of Western women?s status came from Islam, especially Sufism. That was the basis for all subsequent women's liberation. Will Islam ever be able to regain its original role of honoring and empowering women? Subject: The Yoni of Islam Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:03:42 -0500 From: Ken Shaw To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu CC: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , kenneth.d.shaw@worldnet.att.net References: 1 , 2 The Yoni of Islam The etymology of the divine name al-Rahmān (the All-Merciful) is connected to the word for 'womb'(rahim). There is a hadīth qudsī that specifically addresses that: Allah says, "I am al-Rahmān. I created the womb and I derived its name from My name. I will be connected to whoever stays connected to it, and I will be cut off from whoever stays cut off from it." Here, "staying connected to the womb" is usually interpreted to mean 'maintaining family ties' in the social world. It's the extension of loving, honoring, and caring for one's mother, which is the supreme social duty in Islam. But in a metacosmic sense it also reminds me of the all-encompassing importance of the Yoni in Tantra (Yoni = womb). Verse 4:1 in the Qur'ān commands us to "Reverence your Lord . . . and (reverence) the wombs (al-arhām)." Right up front, Allah puts reverence for the Yoni immediately after that of Himself. Allah is the Ultimate Reality, the Absolute One, in which there is no differentiation of duality. But on the very next level, He puts in first place the Eternal Feminine. Looking at the footnote to this verse in A.Yusuf Ali's translation, it appears that he understood the Tantric esoterism deep within Islam. "Among the most wonderful mysteries of our nature is that of sex. The unregenerate male is apt, in the pride of his physical strength, to forget the all-important part which the female plays in his very existence, and in all the social relationships that arise in our collective human lives. The mother that bore us must ever have our reverence. The wife, through whom we enter parentage, must have our reverence. Sex, which governs so much our physical life, and has so much influence on our emotional and higher nature, deserves-not our fear or contempt, or our amused indulgence, but-our reverence in the highest sense of the term." Subject: [Fwd: a mutant discovered] Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:36:47 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man Wow, I think that this fellow is a mutant RM! Regards, proclus Subject: MN Jazz owner Miller sued over Restaurant: Excite News (AP) 5Jul00 B2 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:00:00 -0400 From: Eileen Bell Reply-To: letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com To: Mormon News From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send it to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com LDS Mission Influenced Late LDS Civil Rights Pioneer (Adam 'Mickey' Duncan) Salt Lake Tribune 3Jul00 P2 http://www.sltrib.com/07032000/opinion/opinion.htm SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- His experiences as an LDS missionary shaped the future for a man who became a Utah pioneer for civil rights. 72 year old Adam "Mickey" Duncan passed away in May of this year. His passion for civil rights began while serving his mission in South Africa during the 1940s. Brother Duncan had the chance to see the different ways people of different races were treated in some situations. Compounding the cultural emphasis in South Africa were the restrictions on LDS missionaries because of the former limits on which men could hold the Priesthood. In an interview several years ago, Brother Duncan remembered a Swahili man he had met while he was on his mission. "A truly fine person, a wonderful human being. Yet, because he was black, I couldn't baptize him. I couldn't even preach to him." Coming home after his mission, Brother Duncan served as a seminary teacher in Salt Lake City. After graduating from law school in 1953, he organized Utah's first chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. The Utah ACLU challenged many of the existing barriers to racial equality. When the group started, African Americans and Asians weren't allowed to buy homes in some neighbourhoods. Some clubs denied membership to those of the Jewish faith. Some stores tripled their prices for native Americans, while some restaurants turned away potential customers who were black. In 1956, Brother Duncan made the jump to politics, becoming the youngest member of the Utah House of Representatives. He went on to sponsor a bill geared at stopping businesses from discriminating against minorities. It passed in the House, but was defeated in the Utah Senate. In 1957, Utah Governor George D. Clyde appointed Brother Duncan to a committee on civil rights. He chaired the Governor's Commission on Civil Rights from 1964 to 1975, and also was part of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission. Utah political scientist J.D. Williams praised Brother Duncan's life. "If it hadn't been for Mickey Duncan and the ACLU, progress would have been dreadfully slow in this state." >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest Subject: Re: radical stories etc Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:41:42 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man References: 1 , 2 I was wondering about that. Julie seems enthused about the idea of getting together again as well. I will definitely have to make this happen. More Later... Regards, proclus Randall Shortridge wrote: > > Mike. Ithaca is not far from home. My son was up there about a week > ago. So if you end up there, maybe we will cross paths again, almost > like the Purdue days, excepting the fact that we will not likely see > each other in church. (c: > Randall > proclus wrote: > > > > Heh, with the "demise" of World Gems, this increases our profile, no? > > It's mostly fluff over there at lds.org. Here are the most recent > > stories from the Radical. > > > > The Invasion of the Saints! > > Thanks to Genee France for this interesting story at Time.com from a > > perspective > > that is often forgotten in Mormon circles. Here is the link, and add > > your comments > > here. > > > > LDS World Gems bites the big one > > The Church has brought Gems inside and now controls the most popular > > solely online > > LDS News source. Check the link here, then speak your mind here. > > > > Here is a link to the Radical, just in case you lost it =}. > > > > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/ > > > > As a result of the merger, we need more websites for the sidebar of the > > radical. If you have any suggestions, just pass them along. Hey, how > > about Mormon Libertarians! Actually, I'm favoring the Greens this time > > around. The trouble is that the term "free trade" has become a > > euphemism that actually provides propoganda towards monopoly protection. > > > > Here is a little more news... I'm planning on taking a post-doctoral > > fellowship at Cornell, which is in Ithaca NY. More on that later, as > > the plan gets fleshed out. > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > > > -- > > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > Version: 3.1 > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- > > !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G > > e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: radical libertarian stories etc Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:41:32 -0700 From: "Joe Steve Swick III" To: "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Gaia D" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , "Don Bradley" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "Robert R. Black" , "rpc man" ___Proclus___ Hey, how about Mormon Libertarians! Actually, I'm favoring the Greens this time around. The trouble is that the term "free trade" has become a euphemism that actually provides propoganda towards monopoly protection. ----- Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Ralph Nader, aka Mr. Litigation. And while I believe we should make personal efforts to "live green," the Greens and I definately have a different view re: the proper role of government and the use of its coerecive powers to accomplish what mere persuasion cannot. You should take a look at Harry Brown's stuff for his 2000 campaign. His books, "Why Government Doesn't Work" and "The Great Libertarian Offer," are excellent bits of Libertarian propaganda. You should also see his new tv spots. I particularly like the "Rosemary's Baby" one. You may access these from the left navbar at: http://www.harrybrowne.org/ Note the great bits of RealAudio on this site as well. One of my favorites is the short piece, "Government Doesn't Work." Frankly, I'd love to see a "Mormon Libertarian" page. Maybe my Mormon Libertarian buddies can step up to the plate. I'm currently deep in personal projects that simply won't allow me the time to do this. Kindest, Joe Swick Libertarian Heretic Self-Government: http://www.self-gov.org Reason Magazine Online: http://www.reason.com Liberty Unbound: http://www.libertysoft.com/liberty/index.html Party page: http://www.lp.org/ Policymaking: http://www.cato.org Fundamentals: http://www.libertarian.org/ Subject: "Biblical" Libertarian Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:06:50 -0500 From: Ken Shaw To: Joe Steve Swick III CC: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , Don Bradley , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man References: 1 the short piece, "Government Doesn't Work." Frankly, I'd love to see a "Mormon Libertarian" page. Maybe my Mormon Libertarian buddies can step up to the plate. I'm currently deep in personal projects that simply won't allow me the time to do this. Kindest, Joe Swick Libertarian Heretic Joe, I've been thinking about something for a long time. The highest for of Human association given by Yaweh to Israel was the "Rule of the Judges", a totally stateless society governed by the revealed Torah as ajudicated by charismatic "Judges", who were chosen by aclaimation of the people, rather like how "War Chiefs" were chosen by the Plains Indians. The rule of kings was a kind of apostacy that doomed the confederacy of Tribes. That is why I've always felt kind of funny about Joseph Smith's "Davidic Theocracy" doctrine, that inflicts itself on us to this day with the doctrine of the "infallible brethren." I some space on my new ISP that I could use for something. Is anyone willing to help me develop these ideas further? Maybe each one of could contribute a little write-up of our own on our own perspective of these subjects. Con Dios, Kenneth Shaw Subject: bad boy Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:21:11 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man <<< 553 Sorry, has been banned from this site 501 ... Data format error Ooooo. looks like I've been bad ;-}. Could someone forward the recent mutant material to Bob? thanx! Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: mutant discussions Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:07:39 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: "'proclus'" I say let him in. By the way we have all rather been a bit quite this year so far haven't we? Shall I try and get something going here? O.K., I thought I would. I have been having a discussion on Min in the hypocephali in facsimile 2 with some folks. I got an email from a gent who looked into this a bit and I found it utterly fascinating and I'll share it with you all, k? Not O.K.? Tuff luck dudes-n-chicks, I love ya all and I want to hear more from you.... Kerry A. Shirts --------------------------------------------- For many years anti-Mormons have been claiming that Mormons worship a false pagan god (Min) because Joseph Smith identifies Min (Fig. 7 in Facsimile 2 of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price) as "God sitting upon his throne". Anti-Mormons point-out that Min is shown with his arm to the square, but with an erect penis. They conclude that either Mormons worship this false pagan god Min (erect penis and all), or that Joseph Smith incorrectly identified Min with the God of the Bible, and thus this "proves" that he was not inspired of God and thus a "false prophet". I will demonstrate in this post that Joseph Smith _correctly_ identified Min as the God of the Bible; otherwise known as Jehovah. My evidence will come from the Bible, and from E.A. Wallis Budge's _The Gods of the Egyptians_ (New York: Dover Publications, 1969). Before I begin I want to say that Budge was recognized as the preeminent Egyptologist of his day. He was not a Mormon, and there is no claim or evidence that he was "paid off" by the Mormons. He wrote this book in 1904; at least 6 years before the first use of Egyptology by anti-Mormons against Joseph Smith. This must be said, since it is a common anti-Mormon claim that any scholarly evidence that provides evidence for Mormonism is either from biased Mormon sources, or "paid off" by the Mormon Church. MIN IS AMEN-RA The ancient Egyptians identified the god Min as a "form" or manifestation of Amen-Ra. Budge writes: "Another form of Amen-Ra is that in which he is represented with the body of the ithyphallic [erect penis] god Amsu, or Min, or Khem, e.g., as the personification of the power of generation. IN this form he wears either the customary disk and plumes, or the united crowns of the South and North, and has one hand and arm raised to support (the flail), which he holds above his sholder; he is called 'Amen-Ra', the bull of his mother;...." (Budge 2:17) AMEN-RA IS THE 'HIDDEN ONE'/THE 'UKNOWN GOD' Amen-Ra (also Amon, Amun) means "Hidden" or "Hidden One" in Egyptians. Budge writes: "Of the attributes ascribed to Amen in the Ancient Empire nothing is known, but, if the meaning 'hidden' which is usually given to his name, we must conclude that he was the personification of the hidden and unknown creative powers which was associated with primeval abyss gods in the creation of the world and all that is in it. The word of root _amen_, certainly means 'what is hidden', 'what is not seen', 'what cannot be seen,' and the like.***Now, not only is the god himself said to be 'hidden', and his form, or similitude, is said to be 'unknown'; these statements show that 'hidden' when applied to Amen, the great god, has referenced to something more than the 'sun which has disappeared below the horizon,' and that it indicates that god who cannot be seen with mortal eyes, and who is invisible, as well as inscrutable, to gods as well as men. In the time approaching the Ptolemaic period the name Amen appears to have been connected with the root _men_, 'to abide', 'to be permanent'; and one of the attributes which were applied to him was that of _eternal_." (2:1-2) In the Papyrus of Nesi-Khensu we find these tributes to Amen (Min): "This holy God, the Lord of all the gods, Amen-Ra,....the Being through whom every (other) god hath existence; the one One who hath made everything which hath come into existence since primeval times when the world was created;***Amen-Ra, the King of the gods, the Lord of Heaven and Earth, and of the deep,....He is the Mighty One, who is more distinguished than all the gods of the first and foremost company." (2:14,15,16) Another papyrus dedicated to Amen (Min,Amon,Amun,Amen-Ra,Amsu) says: "Hail, thous Form who art One, thou Creator of all things; hail, thou Only One, thou Maker of all things that exist.***All creatures say, 'Hail to thee!' and all lands praise thee;....The gods bow down before thy majesty to exalt the will of their Creator, they rejoice when they meet their Begetter, and say to thee, 'Come in peace, O Father of the fathers of the gods, who hast spread out the sky, and hast formed the earth, Maker of all things which are, Creator of all things which exist,...Hail to thee, Maker of all things, Lord of Maat [Wisdom], Father of the gods, Maker of men, Creator of animals...Thou art the Head of the company of gods, ONLY ONE, who has no second,...." (2:2-10) Budge comments: "The definiteness of the assertions of this composition suggst that it formed the creed of the worshippers of Amen-Ra, for everyone of them appears to have been made with the express purpose of contradicting the pretentions of other gods; e.g. Aten and Osiris; and an examination of the sentences will show that Amen is made to be the source of life and all things, both animate and inanimate, and that he is identified with the great Unknown God who made the universe." (2:16) Other papyrus dedicated to Amen call him-- *Chief of the gods *Father of the gods *Creator of men and women *Maker of animals *Lord of things which exist *Lord of Terror *Lord of Eternity *Maker of everlastingness *Lord of the gods *Min-Amen *The Only One (2:6-10) The title "Lord of Terror" is significant, because Moses writes of Jehovah: "a Mighty God and terrible" (Deut. 7:21) "a great God, a Mighty, and a terrible God" (Deut. 10:17) These seem to be almost word-for-word descriptions of Min-Amen (Amon,Amen,Amun,Amen-Ra)! Moses was a prince of Egypt. As a prince, he was required to learn "all the wisdom of the Egyptians"; especially the of the Amon Priesthood. Nehemiah calls Jehovah "the terrible God" (Neh. 9:32), and David writes "For the LORD most high is terrible." (Psalms 47:2) AMEN & THE UNKNOWN GOD There are at least two places in the Bible where Amen-Ra seems to be identified with Jehovah; the God of the Old Testament. When Paul goes to Athen and preaches to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, he notices a shrine to "The Unknown God". Some scholars (all non-LDS) believe this is a reference to Amen-Ra (Min-Amen); since one of the names of Amen was "Unknown". It is unlikely that the Athenians would dedicate a shrine to a Being they had no knowledge of. The Athenians had much commerse with the Egyptian-Greek city of Alexandria, and would have been familiar with all the Egyptian gods and their names, titles, and claims. Noticing the shrine to the Unknown God, Paul addressed them: "Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars Hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that ye are too superstitious [Greek: "also religious" as well as being philosophical]. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with the inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him I declare unto you." (Acts 17:22-3) Now, according to the logic (???) anti-Mormons, Jehovah must be a "false pagan god" because the pagan Greeks worshipped the Unknown God, and, since the Unknown God must be a pagan god, and thus false, Paul was preaching to them a "false pagan god"! Therefore, Jehovah _must be_ (under this line of "reasoning"--?) a "false pagain god". Paul was identifying the UNKNOWN GOD with Jehovah. Therefore, using true logic, the Unknown God MUST BE the One True God. Just because pagans ignorantly worship (as Paul says) the One True God, doesn't make the One True God false, but only the pagans ignorant. Let's put that argument in regards to Min (Amen). Anti-Mormons say, "If Min is a pagan god, and he is since pagans worship him, then he must be a false god, and if a false god he can't be the One True God, and if he isn't the One True God then Joseph Smith is a false prophet because he identified him as such." Let's take that, and now use extended logic. If Min is a form of Amen-Ra, and Amen-Ra is the One True God, it does not matter that pagans ignorantly worship Him, or paint Him with an erect penis. The One True God remains the One True God no matter "how" He is portrayed or worshipped by pagans. In the Book of Revelations, Jesus (Jehovah) identifies that His Name is "Amen": "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." (Rev. 3:19) The anti-Mormon claim that Joseph Smith _incorrectly_ identified Min as "God sitting upon his throne" is hereby refuted. The claim that Min is not the true God, and that Mormons worship God "as Min" with an erect penis is a lie! Is Min God? YES! ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 5:15 PM To: steve Subject: Re: mutant discussions Steve, We are an informal, consensus discussion group, and I have passed your request on to the others for their consideration. Meanwhile, you should check the FAQ and let me know if you agree with it. Also, I'm giving you links to our most recent discussions so that you can see what you are getting into. http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/faq.html http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus28.html http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus29.html http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus30.html Regards, proclus steve wrote: > > Thanks, > I would love to join. Let me know what I need to do. > STEVE > > proclus wrote: > > > Were you intending to join the discussion? One of the mutants has > > vouched for you, so if you want to join, just let me know and I will get > > the ball rolling. > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > > > steve skinner wrote: > > > > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > Version: 3.1 > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > > M++@ V-- > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > r+++ y++++ > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: bad boy Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:08:03 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: "'proclus'" Shame on thee Herr Proclus............. Herr Shirts ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:21 PM To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Enoch Shemna; Gaia D; Joe Steve Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts; onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge; Robert R. Black; rpc man Subject: bad boy <<< 553 Sorry, has been banned from this site 501 ... Data format error Ooooo. looks like I've been bad ;-}. Could someone forward the recent mutant material to Bob? thanx! Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: mutant discussions Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:18:37 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw References: 1 Thank you so much for sending that along. I'd just point out that there is not much symbolic difference between an arm to the square, and erect penis, a chapel spire, the second nail, or the third sign. They are imply being "fixed" in the upright, with an orientation towards the divine, whose name is _generation_. You cannot crawl into heaven. Onward and upward, fellows! Regards, proclus Kerry Shirts wrote: > > I say let him in. By the way we have all rather been a bit quite this year > so far haven't we? Shall I try and get something going here? O.K., I > thought I would. I have been having a discussion on Min in the hypocephali > in facsimile 2 with some folks. I got an email from a gent who looked into > this a bit and I found it utterly fascinating and I'll share it with you > all, k? Not O.K.? Tuff luck dudes-n-chicks, I love ya all and I want to > hear more from you.... > Kerry A. Shirts > --------------------------------------------- > For many years anti-Mormons have been claiming > that Mormons worship a false pagan god (Min) because Joseph Smith > identifies Min (Fig. 7 in Facsimile 2 of the Book of Abraham in the > Pearl of Great Price) as "God sitting upon his throne". Anti-Mormons > point-out that Min is shown with his arm to the square, but with an > erect penis. They conclude that either Mormons worship this false pagan > god Min (erect penis and all), or that Joseph Smith incorrectly > identified Min with the God of the Bible, and thus this "proves" that he > was not inspired of God and thus a "false prophet". > I will demonstrate in this post that Joseph Smith _correctly_ identified > Min > as the God of the Bible; otherwise known as Jehovah. My evidence will > come from the Bible, and from E.A. Wallis Budge's _The Gods of the > Egyptians_ (New York: Dover Publications, 1969). Before I begin I want > to say that Budge was recognized as the preeminent Egyptologist of his > day. He was not a Mormon, and there is no claim or evidence that he was > "paid off" by the Mormons. He wrote this book in 1904; at least 6 > years before the first use of Egyptology by anti-Mormons against > Joseph Smith. This must be said, since it is a common anti-Mormon claim > that any scholarly evidence that provides evidence for Mormonism is > either from biased Mormon sources, or "paid off" by the Mormon Church. > MIN IS AMEN-RA > The ancient Egyptians identified the god Min as a "form" or > manifestation of Amen-Ra. Budge writes: > "Another form of Amen-Ra is that in which he is represented with the > body of the ithyphallic [erect penis] god Amsu, or Min, or Khem, e.g., > as the personification of the power of generation. IN this form he wears > either the customary disk and plumes, or the united crowns of the South > and North, and has one hand and arm raised to support (the flail), which > he holds above his sholder; he is called 'Amen-Ra', the bull of his > mother;...." (Budge 2:17) > AMEN-RA IS THE 'HIDDEN ONE'/THE 'UKNOWN GOD' > Amen-Ra (also Amon, Amun) means "Hidden" or "Hidden One" in Egyptians. > Budge writes: > "Of the attributes ascribed to Amen in the Ancient Empire nothing is > known, but, if the meaning 'hidden' which is usually given to his name, > we must conclude that he was the personification of the hidden and > unknown creative powers which was associated with primeval abyss gods in > the creation of the world and all that is in it. The word of root > _amen_, certainly means 'what is hidden', 'what is not seen', 'what > cannot be seen,' and the like.***Now, not only is the god himself said > to be 'hidden', and his form, or similitude, is said to be 'unknown'; > these statements show that 'hidden' when applied to Amen, the great god, > has referenced to something more than the 'sun which has disappeared > below the horizon,' and that it indicates that god who cannot be seen > with mortal eyes, and who is invisible, as well as inscrutable, to gods > as well as men. In the time approaching the Ptolemaic period the name > Amen appears to have been connected with the root _men_, 'to abide', 'to > be permanent'; and one of the attributes which were applied to him was > that of _eternal_." (2:1-2) > In the Papyrus of Nesi-Khensu we find these tributes to Amen (Min): > "This holy God, the Lord of all the gods, Amen-Ra,....the Being through > whom every (other) god hath existence; the one One who hath made > everything which hath come into existence since primeval times when the > world was created;***Amen-Ra, the King of the gods, the Lord of Heaven > and Earth, and of the deep,....He is the Mighty One, who is more > distinguished than all the gods of the first and foremost company." > (2:14,15,16) > Another papyrus dedicated to Amen (Min,Amon,Amun,Amen-Ra,Amsu) says: > "Hail, thous Form who art One, thou Creator of all things; hail, thou > Only One, thou Maker of all things that exist.***All creatures say, > 'Hail to thee!' and all lands praise thee;....The gods bow down before > thy majesty to exalt the will of their Creator, they rejoice when they > meet their Begetter, and say to thee, 'Come in peace, O Father of the > fathers of the gods, who hast spread out the sky, and hast formed the > earth, Maker of all things which are, Creator of all things which > exist,...Hail to thee, Maker of all things, Lord of Maat [Wisdom], > Father of the gods, Maker of men, Creator of animals...Thou art the Head > of the company of gods, ONLY ONE, who has no second,...." (2:2-10) > Budge comments: > "The definiteness of the assertions of this composition suggst that it > formed the creed of the worshippers of Amen-Ra, for everyone of them > appears to have been made with the express purpose of contradicting the > pretentions of other gods; e.g. Aten and Osiris; and an examination of > the sentences will show that Amen is made to be the source of life and > all things, both animate and inanimate, and that he is identified with > the great Unknown God who made the universe." (2:16) > Other papyrus dedicated to Amen call him-- > *Chief of the gods > *Father of the gods > *Creator of men and women > *Maker of animals > *Lord of things which exist > *Lord of Terror > *Lord of Eternity > *Maker of everlastingness > *Lord of the gods > *Min-Amen > *The Only One (2:6-10) > The title "Lord of Terror" is significant, because Moses writes of > Jehovah: > "a Mighty God and terrible" (Deut. 7:21) > "a great God, a Mighty, and a terrible God" (Deut. 10:17) > These seem to be almost word-for-word descriptions of Min-Amen > (Amon,Amen,Amun,Amen-Ra)! Moses was a prince of Egypt. As a prince, he > was required to learn "all the wisdom of the Egyptians"; especially > the of the Amon Priesthood. > Nehemiah calls Jehovah "the terrible God" (Neh. 9:32), and David writes > "For the LORD most high is terrible." (Psalms 47:2) > AMEN & THE UNKNOWN GOD > There are at least two places in the Bible where Amen-Ra seems to be > identified with Jehovah; the God of the Old Testament. When Paul goes to > Athen and preaches to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, he notices a > shrine to "The Unknown God". Some scholars (all non-LDS) believe this is > a reference to Amen-Ra (Min-Amen); since one of the names of Amen was > "Unknown". It is unlikely that the Athenians would dedicate a shrine to > a Being they had no knowledge of. The Athenians had much commerse with > the Egyptian-Greek city of Alexandria, and would have been familiar with > all the Egyptian gods and their names, titles, and claims. Noticing the > shrine to the Unknown God, Paul addressed them: > "Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars Hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, > I perceive that ye are too superstitious [Greek: "also religious" as > well as being philosophical]. For as I passed by, and beheld your > devotions, I found an altar with the inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. > Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him I declare unto you." > (Acts 17:22-3) > Now, according to the logic (???) anti-Mormons, Jehovah must be a "false > pagan god" because the pagan Greeks worshipped the Unknown God, and, since > the Unknown God must be a pagan god, and > thus false, Paul was preaching to them a "false pagan god"! Therefore, > Jehovah _must be_ (under this line of "reasoning"--?) a "false pagain > god". > Paul was identifying the UNKNOWN GOD with Jehovah. Therefore, using true > logic, > the Unknown God MUST BE the One True God. Just because pagans ignorantly > worship (as Paul says) the One True God, doesn't make the One True God > false, but only the pagans ignorant. > Let's put that argument in regards to Min (Amen). > Anti-Mormons say, "If Min is a pagan god, and he is since pagans worship > him, then he must be a false god, and if a false god he can't be the One > True God, and if he isn't the One True God then Joseph Smith is a false > prophet because he identified him as such." > Let's take that, and now use extended logic. If Min is a form of Amen-Ra, > and Amen-Ra is the One True God, it does not matter that pagans > ignorantly worship Him, or paint Him with an erect penis. The One True > God remains the One True God no matter "how" He is portrayed or > worshipped by pagans. > In the Book of Revelations, Jesus (Jehovah) identifies that His Name is > "Amen": > "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, These things > saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the > creation of God." (Rev. 3:19) > The anti-Mormon claim that Joseph Smith _incorrectly_ identified Min as > "God sitting upon his throne" is hereby refuted. > The claim that Min is not the true God, and that Mormons worship God "as > Min" with an erect penis is a lie! > Is Min God? YES! > ---------- > From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 5:15 PM > To: steve > Subject: Re: mutant discussions > Steve, We are an informal, consensus discussion group, and I have passed > your request on to the others for their consideration. Meanwhile, you > should check the FAQ and let me know if you agree with it. Also, I'm > giving you links to our most recent discussions so that you can see what > you are getting into. > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/faq.html > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus28.html > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus29.html > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus30.html > Regards, > proclus > > steve wrote: > > > > Thanks, > > I would love to join. Let me know what I need to do. > > STEVE > > > > proclus wrote: > > > > > Were you intending to join the discussion? One of the mutants has > > > vouched for you, so if you want to join, just let me know and I will > get > > > the ball rolling. > > > > > > Regards, > > > proclus > > > > > > steve skinner wrote: > > > > > > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > Version: 3.1 > > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > > > M++@ V-- > > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > > r+++ y++++ > > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > M++@ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: mutant discussions Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:00:24 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: "'proclus'" ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 10:18 AM To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Enoch Shemna; Gaia D; Joe Steve Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Kerry Shirts; onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge; Robert R. Black; rpc man; Ken Shaw Subject: Re: mutant discussions Thank you so much for sending that along. I'd just point out that there is not much symbolic difference between an arm to the square, and erect penis, a chapel spire, the second nail, or the third sign. They are imply being "fixed" in the upright, with an orientation towards the divine, whose name is _generation_. You cannot crawl into heaven. Onward and upward, fellows! Oh now.......NOW you are getting interesting again young man......... Kerry A. Shirts Regards, proclus Kerry Shirts wrote: > > I say let him in. By the way we have all rather been a bit quite this year > so far haven't we? Shall I try and get something going here? O.K., I > thought I would. I have been having a discussion on Min in the hypocephali > in facsimile 2 with some folks. I got an email from a gent who looked into > this a bit and I found it utterly fascinating and I'll share it with you > all, k? Not O.K.? Tuff luck dudes-n-chicks, I love ya all and I want to > hear more from you.... > Kerry A. Shirts > --------------------------------------------- > For many years anti-Mormons have been claiming > that Mormons worship a false pagan god (Min) because Joseph Smith > identifies Min (Fig. 7 in Facsimile 2 of the Book of Abraham in the > Pearl of Great Price) as "God sitting upon his throne". Anti-Mormons > point-out that Min is shown with his arm to the square, but with an > erect penis. They conclude that either Mormons worship this false pagan > god Min (erect penis and all), or that Joseph Smith incorrectly > identified Min with the God of the Bible, and thus this "proves" that he > was not inspired of God and thus a "false prophet". > I will demonstrate in this post that Joseph Smith _correctly_ identified > Min > as the God of the Bible; otherwise known as Jehovah. My evidence will > come from the Bible, and from E.A. Wallis Budge's _The Gods of the > Egyptians_ (New York: Dover Publications, 1969). Before I begin I want > to say that Budge was recognized as the preeminent Egyptologist of his > day. He was not a Mormon, and there is no claim or evidence that he was > "paid off" by the Mormons. He wrote this book in 1904; at least 6 > years before the first use of Egyptology by anti-Mormons against > Joseph Smith. This must be said, since it is a common anti-Mormon claim > that any scholarly evidence that provides evidence for Mormonism is > either from biased Mormon sources, or "paid off" by the Mormon Church. > MIN IS AMEN-RA > The ancient Egyptians identified the god Min as a "form" or > manifestation of Amen-Ra. Budge writes: > "Another form of Amen-Ra is that in which he is represented with the > body of the ithyphallic [erect penis] god Amsu, or Min, or Khem, e.g., > as the personification of the power of generation. IN this form he wears > either the customary disk and plumes, or the united crowns of the South > and North, and has one hand and arm raised to support (the flail), which > he holds above his sholder; he is called 'Amen-Ra', the bull of his > mother;...." (Budge 2:17) > AMEN-RA IS THE 'HIDDEN ONE'/THE 'UKNOWN GOD' > Amen-Ra (also Amon, Amun) means "Hidden" or "Hidden One" in Egyptians. > Budge writes: > "Of the attributes ascribed to Amen in the Ancient Empire nothing is > known, but, if the meaning 'hidden' which is usually given to his name, > we must conclude that he was the personification of the hidden and > unknown creative powers which was associated with primeval abyss gods in > the creation of the world and all that is in it. The word of root > _amen_, certainly means 'what is hidden', 'what is not seen', 'what > cannot be seen,' and the like.***Now, not only is the god himself said > to be 'hidden', and his form, or similitude, is said to be 'unknown'; > these statements show that 'hidden' when applied to Amen, the great god, > has referenced to something more than the 'sun which has disappeared > below the horizon,' and that it indicates that god who cannot be seen > with mortal eyes, and who is invisible, as well as inscrutable, to gods > as well as men. In the time approaching the Ptolemaic period the name > Amen appears to have been connected with the root _men_, 'to abide', 'to > be permanent'; and one of the attributes which were applied to him was > that of _eternal_." (2:1-2) > In the Papyrus of Nesi-Khensu we find these tributes to Amen (Min): > "This holy God, the Lord of all the gods, Amen-Ra,....the Being through > whom every (other) god hath existence; the one One who hath made > everything which hath come into existence since primeval times when the > world was created;***Amen-Ra, the King of the gods, the Lord of Heaven > and Earth, and of the deep,....He is the Mighty One, who is more > distinguished than all the gods of the first and foremost company." > (2:14,15,16) > Another papyrus dedicated to Amen (Min,Amon,Amun,Amen-Ra,Amsu) says: > "Hail, thous Form who art One, thou Creator of all things; hail, thou > Only One, thou Maker of all things that exist.***All creatures say, > 'Hail to thee!' and all lands praise thee;....The gods bow down before > thy majesty to exalt the will of their Creator, they rejoice when they > meet their Begetter, and say to thee, 'Come in peace, O Father of the > fathers of the gods, who hast spread out the sky, and hast formed the > earth, Maker of all things which are, Creator of all things which > exist,...Hail to thee, Maker of all things, Lord of Maat [Wisdom], > Father of the gods, Maker of men, Creator of animals...Thou art the Head > of the company of gods, ONLY ONE, who has no second,...." (2:2-10) > Budge comments: > "The definiteness of the assertions of this composition suggst that it > formed the creed of the worshippers of Amen-Ra, for everyone of them > appears to have been made with the express purpose of contradicting the > pretentions of other gods; e.g. Aten and Osiris; and an examination of > the sentences will show that Amen is made to be the source of life and > all things, both animate and inanimate, and that he is identified with > the great Unknown God who made the universe." (2:16) > Other papyrus dedicated to Amen call him-- > *Chief of the gods > *Father of the gods > *Creator of men and women > *Maker of animals > *Lord of things which exist > *Lord of Terror > *Lord of Eternity > *Maker of everlastingness > *Lord of the gods > *Min-Amen > *The Only One (2:6-10) > The title "Lord of Terror" is significant, because Moses writes of > Jehovah: > "a Mighty God and terrible" (Deut. 7:21) > "a great God, a Mighty, and a terrible God" (Deut. 10:17) > These seem to be almost word-for-word descriptions of Min-Amen > (Amon,Amen,Amun,Amen-Ra)! Moses was a prince of Egypt. As a prince, he > was required to learn "all the wisdom of the Egyptians"; especially > the of the Amon Priesthood. > Nehemiah calls Jehovah "the terrible God" (Neh. 9:32), and David writes > "For the LORD most high is terrible." (Psalms 47:2) > AMEN & THE UNKNOWN GOD > There are at least two places in the Bible where Amen-Ra seems to be > identified with Jehovah; the God of the Old Testament. When Paul goes to > Athen and preaches to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, he notices a > shrine to "The Unknown God". Some scholars (all non-LDS) believe this is > a reference to Amen-Ra (Min-Amen); since one of the names of Amen was > "Unknown". It is unlikely that the Athenians would dedicate a shrine to > a Being they had no knowledge of. The Athenians had much commerse with > the Egyptian-Greek city of Alexandria, and would have been familiar with > all the Egyptian gods and their names, titles, and claims. Noticing the > shrine to the Unknown God, Paul addressed them: > "Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars Hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, > I perceive that ye are too superstitious [Greek: "also religious" as > well as being philosophical]. For as I passed by, and beheld your > devotions, I found an altar with the inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. > Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him I declare unto you." > (Acts 17:22-3) > Now, according to the logic (???) anti-Mormons, Jehovah must be a "false > pagan god" because the pagan Greeks worshipped the Unknown God, and, since > the Unknown God must be a pagan god, and > thus false, Paul was preaching to them a "false pagan god"! Therefore, > Jehovah _must be_ (under this line of "reasoning"--?) a "false pagain > god". > Paul was identifying the UNKNOWN GOD with Jehovah. Therefore, using true > logic, > the Unknown God MUST BE the One True God. Just because pagans ignorantly > worship (as Paul says) the One True God, doesn't make the One True God > false, but only the pagans ignorant. > Let's put that argument in regards to Min (Amen). > Anti-Mormons say, "If Min is a pagan god, and he is since pagans worship > him, then he must be a false god, and if a false god he can't be the One > True God, and if he isn't the One True God then Joseph Smith is a false > prophet because he identified him as such." > Let's take that, and now use extended logic. If Min is a form of Amen-Ra, > and Amen-Ra is the One True God, it does not matter that pagans > ignorantly worship Him, or paint Him with an erect penis. The One True > God remains the One True God no matter "how" He is portrayed or > worshipped by pagans. > In the Book of Revelations, Jesus (Jehovah) identifies that His Name is > "Amen": > "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, These things > saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the > creation of God." (Rev. 3:19) > The anti-Mormon claim that Joseph Smith _incorrectly_ identified Min as > "God sitting upon his throne" is hereby refuted. > The claim that Min is not the true God, and that Mormons worship God "as > Min" with an erect penis is a lie! > Is Min God? YES! > ---------- > From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 5:15 PM > To: steve > Subject: Re: mutant discussions > Steve, We are an informal, consensus discussion group, and I have passed > your request on to the others for their consideration. Meanwhile, you > should check the FAQ and let me know if you agree with it. Also, I'm > giving you links to our most recent discussions so that you can see what > you are getting into. > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/faq.html > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus28.html > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus29.html > http://proclus.tripod.com/radical/discus30.html > Regards, > proclus > > steve wrote: > > > > Thanks, > > I would love to join. Let me know what I need to do. > > STEVE > > > > proclus wrote: > > > > > Were you intending to join the discussion? One of the mutants has > > > vouched for you, so if you want to join, just let me know and I will > get > > > the ball rolling. > > > > > > Regards, > > > proclus > > > > > > steve skinner wrote: > > > > > > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > Version: 3.1 > > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > > > M++@ V-- > > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > > r+++ y++++ > > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > M++@ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: poll Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:13:44 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw I was just checking out one of the polls and ran across this: Scientific-Hermetic-Sufi-Gnostic-Buddhist/Taoist-Mormon-"Country-dweller" This wonderful thing must be the work of Ken, I would guess ;-}. Here is the link to the poll results. http://tools.arsdigita.com/voxpopuli/ViewResults?poll_id=531&poll_question_id=490&poll_id=531&poll_question_id=490 Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: "Biblical" Libertarian Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:50:02 PDT From: "Beth Quick" To: kenshaw@micron.com, jswick@mindspring.com CC: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, Dear SJW and all, By any chance did you happen to attend the first ever meeting of Mormon Libertarians in 1993 at the Libertarian National Convention in Salt Lake City? I attended and taped the session which included talks by Mark Skousen and one or two other well known Mormon Libertarians (whether with a big or little "L") and the rest of the session was accompanied by hymns and a type of testimony bearing of the truthfulness of the libertarian principle. Many people were very emotionally moved and I taped the session and replayed it many times since. Unfortunately the tape seems to have been lost or misplaced, and coincidentally, within the last couple of weeks, I had been thinking about putting up a little web page on Mormon Libertarians to see if I might be able to get another copy. I won't be able to pursue it until late Fall when I will be enrolled in a web design course. I will keep everyone posted on the development of my website (encompassing esoteric mormonism and other topics) in the Fall and Winter of this year. If anyone has any information on Mormon Libertarians I am interested. Regards to all! Especially to Ken for his ever grand posts!!! Beth >From: Ken Shaw >To: Joe Steve Swick III >CC: proclus , Andy Mcguire , > ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , > Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , >Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts >, Don Bradley , > "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge >, "Robert R. Black" , rpc man > >Subject: "Biblical" Libertarian >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:06:50 -0500 > > > > > the short piece, "Government Doesn't Work." > > > > Frankly, I'd love to see a "Mormon Libertarian" page. Maybe my Mormon > > Libertarian buddies can step up to the plate. I'm currently deep in >personal > > projects that simply won't allow me the time to do this. > > > > Kindest, > > Joe Swick > > Libertarian Heretic > > > > > >Joe, > >I've been thinking about something for a long time. The highest for of >Human >association >given by Yaweh to Israel was the "Rule of the Judges", a totally stateless >society >governed >by the revealed Torah as ajudicated by charismatic "Judges", who were >chosen by >aclaimation >of the people, rather like how "War Chiefs" were chosen by the Plains >Indians. > >The rule of kings was a kind of apostacy that doomed the confederacy of >Tribes. >That is why >I've always felt kind of funny about Joseph Smith's "Davidic Theocracy" >doctrine, >that inflicts >itself on us to this day with the doctrine of the "infallible brethren." > >I some space on my new ISP that I could use for something. Is anyone >willing to >help me >develop these ideas further? Maybe each one of could contribute a little >write-up >of >our own on our own perspective of these subjects. > >Con Dios, >Kenneth Shaw > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Subject: mutant bundle Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:23:24 -0400 From: proclus realm To: proclus Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello all] Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 02:07:01 -1000 From: "Randall Larsen" To: "Joe Steve Swick III" , "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Gaia D" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , "Don Bradley" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "Robert R. Black" , "rpc man" References: 1 Steve, We are all anxiously awaiting Joe's promised paper on ascent. I took one semester of Japanese. I am now studying Akkadian and Middle Egyptian --its easier. What do you think of that book that attempts to connect the Japanese and the Zuni indians? Randall Larsen ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Steve Swick III To: proclus ; Andy Mcguire ; ArtdeHoyos ; Beth any ; Enoch Shemna ; Gaia D ; Kathleen McGuire ; Ken Shaw ; Kerry Shirts ; Don Bradley ; R. Trent Reynolds ; Randall Shortridge ; Robert R. Black ; rpc man ; 'Randall Larsen' Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 9:35 AM Subject: RE: [Fwd: Hello all] > ___Steve___ > I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skinner and I > am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Island where > the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior high > schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. I served > in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am married with 4 > children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have read articles > by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I have read > your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. > ----- > > Hello, Steve. I am a returned missionary from Japan, as well. Since then, I have > lived in Japan off and on, mostly in the Tokyo area. I work as a contract > Program Manager at Microsoft. My most recent assignment has been in the Natural > Language Group, where I maintained the specification for the syntax analyzer > behind (among other things) the Japanese grammar/"spell" checking features in > Word-J. > > I also have four children, and am hoping that I will one day become a 33° Mason, > like our illustrious Brother, Art. To that end, I am using my current vacation > time to complete an article (poor though it is) on Ascent Themes in Freemasonry. > > As for Kehau, now that is a question. I'm not sure what particular posting you > may have read, since I have had numerous exchanges with him... most of which > were confidential, and never meant to be seen by you or anyone else. ( But he > is a sharp fellow, with some very strong rooting in traditional mysticism, which > he attempts to synthesize with Mormonism in some very unusual ways. A Radical > Mutant if ever there was one... perhaps from one of the first and best crops of > mutants. > > Kindest, > Joe Swick > Heretic > > > > > Subject: Hello all Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 23:37:35 +0900 From: "steve skinner" To: "proclus" References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 Hi, I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skinner and I am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Island where the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior high schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. I served in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am married with 4 children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have read articles by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I have read your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. Hello all, STEVE Subject: RE: [Fwd: Hello all] Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:35:14 -0700 From: "Joe Steve Swick III" To: "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Gaia D" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , "Don Bradley" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "Robert R. Black" , "rpc man" , "'Randall Larsen'" ___Steve___ I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skinner and I am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Island where the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior high schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. I served in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am married with 4 children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have read articles by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I have read your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. ----- Hello, Steve. I am a returned missionary from Japan, as well. Since then, I have lived in Japan off and on, mostly in the Tokyo area. I work as a contract Program Manager at Microsoft. My most recent assignment has been in the Natural Language Group, where I maintained the specification for the syntax analyzer behind (among other things) the Japanese grammar/"spell" checking features in Word-J. I also have four children, and am hoping that I will one day become a 33° Mason, like our illustrious Brother, Art. To that end, I am using my current vacation time to complete an article (poor though it is) on Ascent Themes in Freemasonry. As for Kehau, now that is a question. I'm not sure what particular posting you may have read, since I have had numerous exchanges with him... most of which were confidential, and never meant to be seen by you or anyone else. :-( But he is a sharp fellow, with some very strong rooting in traditional mysticism, which he attempts to synthesize with Mormonism in some very unusual ways. A Radical Mutant if ever there was one... perhaps from one of the first and best crops of mutants. Kindest, Joe Swick Heretic Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello all] Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:18:50 -0000 From: "Robert R. Black" To: "Randall Larsen" , "Joe Steve Swick III" , "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Gaia D" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , "Don Bradley" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "rpc man" References: 1 , 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Randall Larsen To: Joe Steve Swick III ; proclus ; Andy Mcguire ; ArtdeHoyos ; Beth any ; Enoch Shemna ; Gaia D ; Kathleen McGuire ; Ken Shaw ; Kerry Shirts ; Don Bradley ; R. Trent Reynolds ; Randall Shortridge ; Robert R. Black ; rpc man Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello all] > Steve, > > We are all anxiously awaiting Joe's promised paper on ascent. > > I took one semester of Japanese. I am now studying Akkadian and Middle > Egyptian --its easier. > > What do you think of that book that attempts to connect the Japanese and the > Zuni indians? > > Randall Larsen > I too studied Middle Egyptian. One of the hardest courses that I ever took. Learning an alphabet of 350 characters was a trick. Now I have forgotten most of it. I wish that I had put that effort into my Hebrew classes. Robert. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Steve Swick III > To: proclus ; Andy Mcguire ; > ArtdeHoyos ; Beth any ; Enoch > Shemna ; Gaia D ; Kathleen McGuire > ; Ken Shaw ; Kerry Shirts > ; Don Bradley ; R. Trent > Reynolds ; Randall Shortridge > ; Robert R. Black ; rpc man > ; 'Randall Larsen' > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 9:35 AM > Subject: RE: [Fwd: Hello all] > > > > ___Steve___ > > I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skinner > and I > > am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Island > where > > the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior high > > schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. I > served > > in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am married > with 4 > > children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have read > articles > > by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I have > read > > your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. > > ----- > > > > Hello, Steve. I am a returned missionary from Japan, as well. Since then, > I have > > lived in Japan off and on, mostly in the Tokyo area. I work as a contract > > Program Manager at Microsoft. My most recent assignment has been in the > Natural > > Language Group, where I maintained the specification for the syntax > analyzer > > behind (among other things) the Japanese grammar/"spell" checking features > in > > Word-J. > > > > I also have four children, and am hoping that I will one day become a 33° > Mason, > > like our illustrious Brother, Art. To that end, I am using my current > vacation > > time to complete an article (poor though it is) on Ascent Themes in > Freemasonry. > > > > As for Kehau, now that is a question. I'm not sure what particular posting > you > > may have read, since I have had numerous exchanges with him... most of > which > > were confidential, and never meant to be seen by you or anyone else. > ( But he > > is a sharp fellow, with some very strong rooting in traditional mysticism, > which > > he attempts to synthesize with Mormonism in some very unusual ways. A > Radical > > Mutant if ever there was one... perhaps from one of the first and best > crops of > > mutants. > > > > Kindest, > > Joe Swick > > Heretic > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Hail Mutants! Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:34:13 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Steve, We are all anxiously awaiting Joe's promised paper on ascent. I took one semester of Japanese. I am now studying Akkadian and Middle Egyptian --its easier. What do you think of that book that attempts to connect the Japanese and = the Zuni indians? Randall Larsen ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Steve Swick III To: proclus ; Andy Mcguire ; ArtdeHoyos ; Beth any ; Enoch Shemna ; Gaia D ; Kathleen McGu= ire ; Ken Shaw ; Kerry Shirts ; Don Bradley ; R. Trent Reynolds ; Randall Shortridge ; Robert R. Black ; rpc man ; 'Randall Larsen' Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 9:35 AM Subject: RE: [Fwd: Hello all] > ___Steve___ > I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skinne= r and I > am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Isl= and where > the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior h= igh > schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. I served > in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am marrie= d with 4 > children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have read articles > by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I have read > your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. > ----- > > Hello, Steve. I am a returned missionary from Japan, as well. Since the= n, I have > lived in Japan off and on, mostly in the Tokyo area. I work as a contra= ct > Program Manager at Microsoft. My most recent assignment has been in the Natural > Language Group, where I maintained the specification for the syntax analyzer > behind (among other things) the Japanese grammar/"spell" checking featu= res in > Word-J. > > I also have four children, and am hoping that I will one day become a 3= 3=B0 Mason, > like our illustrious Brother, Art. To that end, I am using my current vacation > time to complete an article (poor though it is) on Ascent Themes in Freemasonry. > > As for Kehau, now that is a question. I'm not sure what particular post= ing you > may have read, since I have had numerous exchanges with him... most of which > were confidential, and never meant to be seen by you or anyone else. ( But he > is a sharp fellow, with some very strong rooting in traditional mystici= sm, which > he attempts to synthesize with Mormonism in some very unusual ways. A Radical > Mutant if ever there was one... perhaps from one of the first and best crops of > mutants. > > Kindest, > Joe Swick > Heretic > > > > > --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin01.mac.com ([10.13.10.68]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FYZA0D00.0BC for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 07:38:37 -0700 Received: from smv14.iname.net ([165.251.8.71]) by smtpin01.mac.com () with SMTP id FYZA0C00.FV5 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 07:38:36 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from crusher.grn.mmtr.or.jp (crusher.grn.mmtr.or.jp [210.228.160.27]) by smv14.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with SMTP id KAA07210 for sent by ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23120 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2000 23:37:40 +0900 Received: from ppp3-awajishima.mmtr.or.jp (HELO steveski) (210.228.175.230) by crusher.grn.mmtr.or.jp with SMTP; 8 Aug 2000 23:37:40 +0900 Message-ID: <00ed01c00146$36205140$e5afe4d2@steveski> From: "steve skinner" To: "proclus" References: <002701bfe8c4$42202460$edafe4d2@steveski> <396B3D9D.FED4259C@iname.com> <396B65BD.9F77A670@grn.mmtr.or.jp> <396BAA96.8B7F047@iname.com> <3973F8ED.99425A17@grn.mmtr.or.jp> <39746119.96F8E7CB@iname.com> Subject: Hello all Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 23:37:35 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hi, I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skinner and I am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Island where the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior high schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. I served in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am married with 4 children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have read articles by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I have read your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. Hello all, STEVE --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin06.mac.com ([10.13.10.34]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FYZNOH00.MOH for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:33:53 -0700 Received: from smv16.iname.net ([165.251.8.101]) by smtpin06.mac.com () with SMTP id FYZNOD00.49Y for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:33:49 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by smv16.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with ESMTP id PAB16062 for sent by ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (user-2ini9id.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.38.77]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA19135; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joe Steve Swick III" To: "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Gaia D" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , "Don Bradley" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "Robert R. Black" , "rpc man" , "'Randall Larsen'" Subject: RE: [Fwd: Hello all] Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:35:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <39902E1F.79288C48@iname.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smv16.iname.net id PAB16062 ___Steve___ I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skinner = and I am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Islan= d where the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior hig= h schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. I s= erved in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am married = with 4 children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have read a= rticles by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I have r= ead your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. ----- Hello, Steve. I am a returned missionary from Japan, as well. Since then,= I have lived in Japan off and on, mostly in the Tokyo area. I work as a contract Program Manager at Microsoft. My most recent assignment has been in the N= atural Language Group, where I maintained the specification for the syntax analy= zer behind (among other things) the Japanese grammar/"spell" checking feature= s in Word-J. I also have four children, and am hoping that I will one day become a 33=B0= Mason, like our illustrious Brother, Art. To that end, I am using my current va= cation time to complete an article (poor though it is) on Ascent Themes in Freem= asonry. As for Kehau, now that is a question. I'm not sure what particular postin= g you may have read, since I have had numerous exchanges with him... most of wh= ich were confidential, and never meant to be seen by you or anyone else. :-( = But he is a sharp fellow, with some very strong rooting in traditional mysticism= , which he attempts to synthesize with Mormonism in some very unusual ways. A Rad= ical Mutant if ever there was one... perhaps from one of the first and best cr= ops of mutants. Kindest, Joe Swick Heretic --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin06.mac.com ([10.13.10.34]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FZ0EUR00.1E1 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:20:51 -0700 Received: from smv15.iname.net ([165.251.8.210]) by smtpin06.mac.com () with SMTP id FZ0EUN00.1MH for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:20:47 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from accex.net ([198.76.185.74]) by smv15.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with SMTP id BAA09896 for sent by ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black [192.216.38.142] by accex.net [198.76.185.74] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2000 22:23:32 -0700 Message-ID: <00b401c00186$a39b8e20$8e26d8c0@black> From: "Robert R. Black" To: "Randall Larsen" , "Joe Steve Swick III" , "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Gaia D" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , "Don Bradley" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "rpc man" References: <004501c00131$29326e10$8de41918@hawaii.rr.com> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello all] Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:18:50 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: proclus@mac.com X-Return-Path: black@accex.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smv15.iname.net id BAA09896 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 ----- Original Message ----- From: Randall Larsen To: Joe Steve Swick III ; proclus ; Andy Mcguire ; ArtdeHoyos ; Beth any ; Enoch Shemna ; Gaia D ; Kathleen McGuire ; Ken Shaw ; Kerry Shirts ; Don Bradley ; R. Trent Reynolds ; Randall Shortridge ; Robert R. Black ; rpc man Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello all] > Steve, > > We are all anxiously awaiting Joe's promised paper on ascent. > > I took one semester of Japanese. I am now studying Akkadian and Middl= e > Egyptian --its easier. > > What do you think of that book that attempts to connect the Japanese an= d the > Zuni indians? > > Randall Larsen > I too studied Middle Egyptian. One of the hardest courses that I ever too= k. Learning an alphabet of 350 characters was a trick. Now I have forgotten most of it. I wish that I had put that effort into my Hebrew classes. Robert. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Steve Swick III > To: proclus ; Andy Mcguire = ; > ArtdeHoyos ; Beth any ; Enoch > Shemna ; Gaia D ; Kathleen McGuire > ; Ken Shaw ; Kerry Shirts > ; Don Bradley ; R. Tren= t > Reynolds ; Randall Shortridge > ; Robert R. Black ; rpc man > ; 'Randall Larsen' > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 9:35 AM > Subject: RE: [Fwd: Hello all] > > > > ___Steve___ > > I thought that I would introduce myself a bit. My name is Steve Skin= ner > and I > > am from Utah(Roosevelt) but I am currently living in Japan(on Awaji Island > where > > the big quake was a few years back.). I teach English at the junior high > > schools here in Seidan. I am an active LDS and a return missionary. = I > served > > in Tennessee. So now I have strange southern Utah accent. I am marr= ied > with 4 > > children. I know some of you from your writing on the web. I have re= ad > articles > > by Kerry, Randall and Joe. That reminds me. Joe who is Kehau. I ha= ve > read > > your post with him. Who is this guy? Well enough of an intro. > > ----- > > > > Hello, Steve. I am a returned missionary from Japan, as well. Since then, > I have > > lived in Japan off and on, mostly in the Tokyo area. I work as a contract > > Program Manager at Microsoft. My most recent assignment has been in t= he > Natural > > Language Group, where I maintained the specification for the syntax > analyzer > > behind (among other things) the Japanese grammar/"spell" checking features > in > > Word-J. > > > > I also have four children, and am hoping that I will one day become a 33=B0 > Mason, > > like our illustrious Brother, Art. To that end, I am using my curren= t > vacation > > time to complete an article (poor though it is) on Ascent Themes in > Freemasonry. > > > > As for Kehau, now that is a question. I'm not sure what particular posting > you > > may have read, since I have had numerous exchanges with him... most o= f > which > > were confidential, and never meant to be seen by you or anyone else. > ( But he > > is a sharp fellow, with some very strong rooting in traditional mysticism, > which > > he attempts to synthesize with Mormonism in some very unusual ways. A > Radical > > Mutant if ever there was one... perhaps from one of the first and bes= t > crops of > > mutants. > > > > Kindest, > > Joe Swick > > Heretic > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin03.mac.com ([10.13.10.70]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FYZYV900.MYE for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:35:33 -0700 Received: from smv08.iname.net ([165.251.8.71]) by smtpin03.mac.com () with SMTP id FYZYV800.OAZ for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:35:32 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hydra.rose.brandeis.edu (hydra.rose.brandeis.edu [129.64.32.14]) by smv08.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with ESMTP id TAA29404 for sent by ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iname.com (mozart.rose.brandeis.edu [129.64.32.17]) by hydra.rose.brandeis.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA12223; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:34:14 -0400 Sender: love@hydra.rose.brandeis.edu Message-ID: <399098F5.5EFD39E@iname.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:34:13 -0400 From: proclus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; IRIX 5.3 IP22) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man Subject: Hail Mutants! Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F6C620B7FD5718E31114EEFA" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F6C620B7FD5718E31114EEFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I've been so disengaged of late. Graduation is a killer. I've attached some files that you might enjoy. Sorry about the format =). Anyways, I thought that you guys might like to read my recent sacrament meeting talk. Also, I saw Timothy Leary recently. It seems that he has attained space migration after all ;-}. (Hint: Look carefully at that nebula.) Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ --------------F6C620B7FD5718E31114EEFA Return-Path: Received: from smtpin03.mac.com ([10.13.10.70]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FZ0ETJ00.N9R for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:20:07 -0700 Received: from smv08.iname.net ([165.251.8.111]) by smtpin03.mac.com () with SMTP id FZ0ETE00.9HQ for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:20:02 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from medici.penguinpowered.com (209-6-185-10.c4-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com [209.6.185.10]) by smv08.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with ESMTP id BAA08495 for sent by ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iname.com (kepler.penguinpowered.com [192.168.0.3]) by medici.penguinpowered.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA10120; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:19:54 -0400 Message-ID: <3990E9F4.6FC11E5F@iname.com> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 01:19:49 -0400 From: proclus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , steve skinner Subject: Re: Hail Mutants! References: <399098F5.5EFD39E@iname.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hey all! Don't forget to add Steve to your lists. I had to send him a few messages, where he got missed. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin05.mac.com ([10.13.10.33]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FZ0NEI00.IDU for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:25:30 -0700 Received: from smv14.iname.net ([165.251.8.91]) by smtpin05.mac.com () with SMTP id FZ0NEI00.FSN for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:25:30 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from crusher.grn.mmtr.or.jp (crusher.grn.mmtr.or.jp [210.228.160.27]) by smv14.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with SMTP id EAA03217 for sent by ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 04:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 2113 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2000 17:24:02 +0900 Received: from ppp2-awajishima.mmtr.or.jp (HELO steveski) (210.228.175.229) by crusher.grn.mmtr.or.jp with SMTP; 9 Aug 2000 17:24:02 +0900 Message-ID: <00af01c001db$2ccbe740$edafe4d2@steveski> From: "steve skinner" To: "proclus" Subject: Fw: indians Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:24:01 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve skinner" To: "Andy Mcguire" ; "ArtdeHoyos" ; "Beth any" ; "Enoch Shemna" ; "Gaia D" ; "Joe Steve Swick III" ; "Kathleen McGuire" ; "Ken Shaw" ; "Kerry Shirts" ; ; "R. Trent Reynolds" ; "Randall Shortridge" ; "Robert R. Black" ; "rpc man" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 3:32 PM Subject: indians > Don't know much about the Zuni Indians. What was the book's name? > And what did you think of it? As for what posts I read about you here is > the link to the web site. You are the G0000* posts. > It was very interesting! You both made some good points. But I don't know > who is more correct. I think I am somewhere in the middle. > Thanks for adding me to the group. And I hope we can have some fun. > STEVE > http://www.aloha.net/~kehau/LDS/Endow/Messages/ > > --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin05.mac.com ([10.13.10.33]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FZ0WHV00.VLI for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 04:41:55 -0700 Received: from smv05.iname.net ([165.251.8.81]) by smtpin05.mac.com () with SMTP id FZ0WFY00.4Z0 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 04:40:46 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from mailrelay.acsu.buffalo.edu (mailrelay.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.101]) by smv05.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with SMTP id HAA22441 for sent by ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 07:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21500 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2000 11:40:08 -0000 Received: from rshortridge.bio.buffalo.edu (HELO acsu.buffalo.edu) (128.205.182.174) by mailrelay with SMTP; 9 Aug 2000 11:40:08 -0000 Message-ID: <39914399.2F418960@acsu.buffalo.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 07:42:17 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Reply-To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu Organization: State University of New York X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randall Larsen CC: Joe Steve Swick III , proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , Don Bradley , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man Subject: soliciting mason brain contrib References: <004501c00131$29326e10$8de41918@hawaii.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smv05.iname.net id HAA22441 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 snipped.... > > I also have four children, and am hoping that I will one day become a= 33=B0 > Mason, > > like our illustrious Brother, Art. To that end, I am using my curren= t > vacation > > time to complete an article (poor though it is) on Ascent Themes in > Freemasonry. =20 To: Joe, Art, Randall (Larsen) and ohters familiar with masonry.... If you have time, could you comment on the book "The Tomb of God"? As you probably know, the book claims that the body of Jesus is buried in France and is the deepest-kept secret of the Priory De Zion as well as other brotherhoods. It claims that this grand secret pervades illuminist paintings and writings in deep symbolism and that it was considered so heretical by the catholic powercrats that those who adhered to it had to go underground to save their own lives and then write things like the tarot to keep it alive. =20 At the risk of being accused of heresey, I find that the idea knits a lot of world history into a picture that makes a lot of sense, as well as the idea of resurrection found in real-experience accounts of it.=20 But, it is difficult to swallow for anyone weaned on the orthodox (catholic) version of resurrection (ie. that one takes up the old body rather than a new one). Randall (Shortridge) --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin03.mac.com ([10.13.10.70]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FZ19R800.BVL for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 09:28:20 -0700 Received: from smv14.iname.net ([165.251.8.71]) by smtpin03.mac.com () with SMTP id FZ19R300.03L for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 09:28:15 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from mail-srv1.micron.com (masquerade.micron.com [137.201.242.130]) by smv14.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with ESMTP id MAA22547 for sent by ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-srv1.micron.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail-srv1.micron.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA16858 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ntxmtec01.ritx.micron.com (ntxmtec01.ritx.micron.com [10.112.8.46]) by mail-srv1.micron.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA16781; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:28:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from micron.com (antelope.ritx.micron.com [10.112.20.239]) by ntxmtec01.ritx.micron.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id KJNHCT87; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:28:04 -0500 Sender: kenshaw@micron.com Message-ID: <3991868D.5E52C0E8@micron.com> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:27:57 -0500 From: Ken Shaw X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: proclus CC: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Enoch Shemna , Gaia D , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , steve skinner Subject: Proclus-You'll love this References: <399162E6.256FACA@iname.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smv14.iname.net id MAA22547 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 God of the quantum vacuum Alongside the big bang, the birth of time and inflation of the early Univer= se, many cosmologists still see the hand of the Almighty at wor= k, says Margaret Wertheim IT IS NO accident that the word "heaven" refers to the domain of stars and of God. To medieval Christians, the Universe reflected a divin= e order. At the centre of the physical cosmos sat the Earth, and around it revolved = great concentric "crystal spheres" that carried the Sun, Moon, planets and stars= . The spiritual parallel of this structure placed humanity at the centre. Proceeding outwards, the spheres were ruled by successively higher ranks of angels, forming a grea= t cosmic hierarchy. Beyond the final sphere was the empyrean heaven of God the creato= r. Looking up at the stars, medieval Christians really believed they were looking towards God. The notion of a cosmos that reflects the divine still = had currency at the dawn of the modern scientific era. For the founders of modern cosmology--Nicholas Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, and Isaac Newton--studying the stars = was a quintessentially religious activity. As Kepler wrote in 1595, "for a lo= ng time I wanted to become a theologian...now, however, behold how through my effor= ts God is being celebrated in astronomy". Yet in our own century we have come to see the Univers= e not as a reflection of God, but as a by-product of natural laws, such as Newton's = law of gravity and Einstein's general relativity. The Cambridge University physicist Stephen Hawking has even claimed that natural laws alone will soon tell us how = the Universe grew out of nothingness. "What place then, for a creator?" he asks= in his best-selling book, A Brief History of Time. But is it necessarily true that the more scientists le= arn about the workings of the cosmos, the less they can see of the divine? Hawking m= ay think so, but a surprising number of cosmologists and astronomers do not. They co= ntinue to see aspects of the divine within the Universe that science describes. For those who think there is something odd about a bun= ch of scientists thinking about God, consider the fact that in April this year, a surv= ey published in Nature (vol 386, p 435) revealed that 39=B73 per cent of American scienti= sts believe in a personal God they can pray to. The authors, Larry Witham and Edward Lars= on, a historian at the University of Georgia in Athens, point out that they u= sed a very narrow definition of deity. With a wider definition, they say, the proporti= on of believers would have been even higher. More surprisingly, the survey--which was = a rerun of one conducted in 1916--revealed that religious belief among American scientists has hardly changed since the start of the century, when 41=B78 per cent e= xpressed belief in a personal God. Jewish mysticism So how might God be reflected in the Universe of contemporary cosmology? In May, this question brought together a group of leading cosmologists to the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences, in Berkeley, Califo= rnia, which is devoted to bridging the gap between the two fields. Chief among t= he issues discussed was how to interpret the scientific account of the birth of the Universe in a theistic sense. One intriguing interpretation comes from Joel Primack,= a cosmologist at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Primack, who is Jewish, dra= ws an analogy between cosmological inflation theory and the description of creation told by followers of cabbala, a form of Jewish mysticism dating from the la= te Middle Ages. The early cabbalists believed they could learn about God through= his relationship with nature. "The cabbalists developed a theoretical system portray= ing God as having ten aspects, known in Hebrew as the sephirot," says Primack. Beyond= the sephirot is Ein Sof, the unknowable aspect of God, from which emanated a light = that created the sephirot and the physical universe. "Of the ten sephirot," he says,= "the first three deal with creation, and they correspond fairly closely to the concepts fro= m the theories of inflation and eternal inflation." The inflationary theory, proposed in 1979 by Alan Guth= of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, argues that for a fraction of a second = after the Universe emerged from the quantum vacuum, it expanded exponentially, growing= much faster than the speed of light. Eternal inflation is a development of this i= dea, proposed by the Russian physicist Andrei Linde, now at Stanford University. Li= nde's idea is that there was not just one inflationary speck, but many--and not just on= e Universe, but many. Inflation is still going on today, he argues, constantly produci= ng new universes all the time. It is a sort of infinite bubbling potential. Bursting through According to Primack, the infinite potential of eterna= l inflation may be likened to the first sephirah of the cabbala, known as Keter, which i= s symbolic of God's infinite potential to create. The second, called Hokhmah, is th= e bursting through of our Universe from the realm of pure potential to physical existence. This Primack likens to the initial expansive moment of inflation. The third sephirah, Binah, is the womb in which creation expands out of Hokhmah, and for Primack= , this can be seen as analogous to the more leisurely, post-inflationary exp= ansion of spacetime. Indeed, Primack concludes: "There could probably be no more ac= curate name for the big bang as we understand it scientifically today than to = call it Hokhmah-Binah." While Primack's attention is drawn to the Jewish cabba= la, Robert Russell has focused on the Christian story of creation. Russell is a physi= cist, theologian, minister in the United Church of Christ and founder of the Berkeley Ce= nter for Theology and the Natural Sciences. Surprisingly, he draws on the work o= f Hawking, the unbeliever. Russell argues that, far from removing the need for a creator, Hawking's brand of cosmology can actually be seen to support the Christia= n view. Hawking proposes that time emerges along with the Universe out of the quantu= m background. And since in the fuzziness of quantum theory there is no precise mo= ment when time begins, there is no precise moment of creation and hence no need for a creator. While Russell agrees that time was born along with the Universe, he disagre= es that this leaves no room for a creator. As far back as the 5th century, he says, the great Chr= istian saint Augustine of Hippo declared that the Universe was not created "in" time, = but "with" time. For Augustine, it made no sense to ask what happened "before" God cre= ated the Universe because time did not exist. For the same reason, Hawking says = it makes no sense to discuss events before the quantum fluctuation that gave rise t= o the Universe. But according to Augustinian theology, God did exist before creation be= cause he exists outside of time. Thus, says Russell, Hawking's cosmology does not automatically squeeze God out of existence. Rather it can be seen to support the notion= of a God who transcends time. "This is a good example," says Russell, "of how theolo= gians can do theology better if they understand science." In the Judaic and Christian traditions, the creation o= f our Universe is viewed as a single, long-ago event, but in the Muslim mystical tra= dition known as Sufism the process of creation is continuous. Bruno Guiderdoni of= the Institute of Astrophysics in Paris says that in Islam "creation is God's self-discl= osure to himself". In other words, God reveals himself by the very act of creation. According to Sufism, there are five levels of reality = or "Presences" through which God reveals himself. These, Guiderdoni says, may be li= kened to the 10 sephirot of the cabbala. But since Sufism holds that God's self-disclo= sure is perpetual, new things--be they events or life forms--are coming into = being all the time. "They are continuously poured into disclosure," says Guiderdoni. Sufi belief in continual creation fits well with the m= odern cosmological view of an increasingly complex Universe, Guiderdoni says. In the beginning, runs the accepted scientific view, the Universe was a simple place consi= sting of a single "superforce". After the big bang, this separated into the four force= s we see today: gravity, electromagnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear forc= es. Then, matter as we know it began to form, starting with subatomic particles, t= hen atoms, stars and galaxies, and later molecules and planets. Finally came the gradual emergence of life forms. For a Sufi, this process is a joyous reflection of God's continuing revelation. According to John Barrow, professor of physics at the University of Sussex, it is hardly surprising that people see God in the scientifi= c cosmos, because religious ideas so often permeate science. Hawking would not be workin= g on the emergence of the Universe from the quantum vacuum, for example, if ther= e was not already a tradition in religion of "God creating something out of nothing"= , says Barrow. There are other examples of how science has subsumed religious ideas. Edward Harrison, an astrophysicist recently retired from the University of Massachusetts, points to the "cosmological principle", the idea that = the Universe has no centre and is essentially the same everywhere. This has its roots in= the notion, shared by Christians and Muslims, that "God is everywhere and occupies no p= oint", he says. Within the Christian religion, the principle in this form was fir= st expressed by the 15th-century German scientist and theologian Cardinal Nicholas of C= usa, who reached his view on theological grounds. "Astronomers don't often apprecia= te how the definitions and properties ascribed to God were eventually translated = into properties of the Universe," says Harrison. Linde goes further still. He believes that the whole o= f modern cosmology has been deeply influenced by the Western tradition of monothei= sm. "When scientists start their work," he says, "they are subconsciously influenced by= their cultural traditions." In particular, the central idea of modern cosmology--that= it must be possible to understand the entire Universe through one ultimate Th= eory of Everything--is an outgrowth of belief in one God. Thus cosmology has its= elf become a sort of religious quest: a search for "God" in the form of an equation. Heart of the cosmos One important feature of the grand synthesis between s= cience and Christianity that prevailed in medieval Europe was humankind's position = in the cosmic order. Humanity was seen as residing not just at the physical heart of= the cosmos, but also at its spiritual centre--the focal point of God's attention. = Today we appear to have been removed from that focus. Modern cosmology seems to pla= ce humanity nowhere in particular--and it is this denial of a "special" place= for humans that makes some religious believers today view science with suspicion. But, again, many researchers insist that science does = not demote humanity to cosmic insignificance. Primack, for example, points out an important respect in which humans are in the middle of the cosmos. At between 1 and 2 me= tres tall, we are almost exactly halfway between the largest cosmological scale of 1026 meters, and the smallest quantum scale of 10-35 metres. We also live in a small island of baryonic--or "normal"--matter, amid the vast sea of unseen dark mat= ter, which appears to make up more than 90 per cent of the Universe. This, Primac= k says, shows that we are in a cosmologically special place. There are other ways too in which we have a special pl= ace in the Universe, says Guiderdoni. Astrophysics tells us that the atoms of ou= r bodies were forged in stars, so we humans could not exist until the Universe had under= gone several generations of stellar evolution. "The size of the Universe is a consequence of its age, and so we need this space around us and the time behind us in order t= o be here on Earth," he says. "Cosmology is teaching us that we are at the top of a = huge cosmic building." As in the medieval era, we too can see the physical Universe as = a ladder leading up to humanity. There is also a sense in which the Earth is literally = at the centre of the Universe, says Guiderdoni. Whatever shape our cosmos may be in theory= , in practice we live at the centre of a sphere which is determined by the light th= at has reached us since the big bang. The surface of this sphere is the time t=3D0, be= yond which we have no scientific knowledge. This finding echoes the medievals' view of = the cosmos, says Guiderdoni. For them, rational knowledge ended at the outermost celestial sphere, where the mystery of God and creation began. "We too have a kind= of boundary between the cosmos, which is describable by natural laws, and the mystery of the origin," he says. In the 14th century epic, the Divine Comedy, Dante Ali= ghieri travels through the cosmos towards God. Coming to the outermost sphere, he strains to pierce the skin of the Universe to see the ultimate source of wisdom beyo= nd. "We are trying to probe our origins," Guiderdoni says, "exactly as Dante allegorically crossed the celestial spheres to see God's face." Modern cosmology is unlike other sciences in that ther= e is only limited scope for experiments, and nature has given us just one Universe= to observe. On top of that, much of contemporary cosmology deals with things like inflation and the big bang that have not been directly observed, and probably never wi= ll be. Andrej Pacholczyk of the University of Arizona in Tucson views cosmology as "noncorrespondence science"--one based on almost pure speculation. Today,= the crystal spheres may have gone, but what has replaced them--the best natura= l laws that scientists can produce--cannot pierce the skin of the big bang. Perha= ps this is why so many scientists still see the face of God reflected from th= e edge of the cosmos. --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin01.mac.com ([10.13.10.68]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FZ1B4F00.VYQ for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 09:57:51 -0700 Received: from smv15.iname.net ([165.251.8.101]) by smtpin01.mac.com () with SMTP id FZ1B4E00.216 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 09:57:50 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by smv15.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with ESMTP id MAA16976 for sent by ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (user-2ini81o.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.32.56]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA32478; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joe Steve Swick III" To: "proclus" , "Andy Mcguire" , "Don Bradley" , "ArtdeHoyos" , "Beth any" , "Enoch Shemna" , "Gaia" , "Kathleen McGuire" , "Ken Shaw" , "Kerry Shirts" , , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Randall Shortridge" , "Robert R. Black" , "rpc man" Subject: New Address for Don Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 09:59:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <399098F5.5EFD39E@iname.com> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 You might wish to update your address for Don Bradley from onandagus@webtv.net to: DonBradleySr@cs.com Cheers, Joe Swick Heretic --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11 Return-Path: Received: from smtpin04.mac.com ([10.13.10.32]) by mail05.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FZ1GPY00.457 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:58:46 -0700 Received: from smv18.iname.net ([165.251.8.111]) by smtpin04.mac.com () with SMTP id FZ1GPU00.36U for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:58:42 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from csimo01.mx.cs.com (csimo01.mx.cs.com [152.163.225.74]) by smv18.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.1SMV2) with ESMTP id OAA00514 for sent by ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:58:24 -0400 (EDT) From: DonBradleySr@cs.com Received: from DonBradleySr@cs.com by csimo01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.12.) id d.2b.9350c1c (4235); Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2b.9350c1c.26c303c8@cs.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:58:16 EDT Subject: Re: New Address for Don To: jswick@mindspring.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, DonBradleySr@cs.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, enoch144@eaglehost.com, gaia_d@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, onandagus@webtv.net, tpfamily@dotplanet.net, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 109 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hi all, A little voice that sounded suspiciously like Joe Swick prompted me to let you know that I know generally use the address rather than the address. IOW, you can drop the latter from future posts. Thanks. Don Bradley --------------D92DB1A87399F71E40AD1C11-- Hello All, This is the most current Mutants address list I have. If there are new members maybe somebody could forward this to them and/or someone can notify me of the updated list. As I recall, Gaia came back, but I don't have her address listed here. I also need Ken Shaw's current address. I was listening to the Sightings radio program on Friday, December 1st and heard a most interesting interview with a man named James Arthur. I wanted to give a link to his website to point people in a direction of research that promises to have some circuit blowing capabilities. There is also a link to the audio archive, if anyone would like to hear the show. http://jamesarthur.yage.net/mushroom.html Basically James Arthur came on the show with his latest research to give a simple message. That message was what he called the 'true gift of Chrsitmas', which his thesis states are magic mushrooms, particularly Amanita Muscaria. How he arrives at this conclusion I'll leave for any interested parties to follow the links and find out for themselves. He went through about two hours of symbology - particularly relgious symbology, and showed the religious and spiritual signifigance of Amanita in numerous cultures and traditions, particularly Europe and ancient cultures, even among the Isrealites and their 'Manna from heaven' ( I also have another book about this by the way - it is called "The Mystery of Manna: The Psychedelic Sacrament of the Bible by Dan Merkur). As exciting and mind expanding - ha ha - as this whole discussion was, the real circuit blower was a very interesting announcement that he made on live national radio - that I wanted to direct your attention to as we await further disclosure - and that is that James Arthur claims to have been worlking with a well known Mormon Historian, and that they have collaberated on a forthcoming book entitled: "The Mushrooms of Mormonism" !!! He also says that he has been run out of Utah and has recieved death threats. I am very intersted in contacting Mr. Arthur. I hope some of you will too and will follow these links. Happy Holidays! Merry Meet and Merry Part and Merry Meet Again! Beth _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Hello All, This is the most current Mutants address list I have. If there are new members maybe somebody could forward this to them and/or someone can notify me of the updated list. As I recall, Gaia came back, but I don't have her address listed here. I also need Ken Shaw's current address. I was listening to the Sightings radio program on Friday, December 1st and heard a most interesting interview with a man named James Arthur. I wanted to give a link to his website to point people in a direction of research that promises to have some circuit blowing capabilities. There is also a link to the audio archive, if anyone would like to hear the show. http://jamesarthur.yage.net/mushroom.html Basically James Arthur came on the show with his latest research to give a simple message. That message was what he called the 'true gift of Chrsitmas', which his thesis states are magic mushrooms, particularly Amanita Muscaria. How he arrives at this conclusion I'll leave for any interested parties to follow the links and find out for themselves. He went through about two hours of symbology - particularly relgious symbology, and showed the religious and spiritual signifigance of Amanita in numerous cultures and traditions, particularly Europe and ancient cultures, even among the Isrealites and their 'Manna from heaven' ( I also have another book about this by the way - it is called "The Mystery of Manna: The Psychedelic Sacrament of the Bible by Dan Merkur). As exciting and mind expanding - ha ha - as this whole discussion was, the real circuit blower was a very interesting announcement that he made on live national radio - that I wanted to direct your attention to as we await further disclosure - and that is that James Arthur claims to have been worlking with a well known Mormon Historian, and that they have collaberated on a forthcoming book entitled: "The Mushrooms of Mormonism" !!! He also says that he has been run out of Utah and has recieved death threats. I am very intersted in contacting Mr. Arthur. I hope some of you will too and will follow these links. Happy Holidays! Merry Meet and Merry Part and Merry Meet Again! Beth _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

If you want to join the discussion, just click here..
Back up to Mutant's Home

More discussion here!

Visit



Michael L. Love/proclus/GNU-Darwin link block

Related social networking sites that might be lesser known