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Subject: Re: [Fwd: our jam] Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:46:30 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Michael Love , Pat Brown , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , Gaia , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw , Steven Pirie-Shepherd No need to drop acid anymore.... my optic nerve endings are blastin' JSW -----Original Message----- From: Michael Love To: Pat Brown Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve Swick III ArtdeHoyos Randall Shortridge Beth any proclus rpc man Gaia onandagus@webtv.net Neoptolmus@aol.com Dave Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Ken Shaw Steven Pirie-Shepherd Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:50 AM Subject: [Fwd: our jam] >Keep this to yourselves for now, folks... > >ResRocket secret transmission... > >from proclus.... > >loading............... Subject: Hebrew restored Book of Commandments Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:23:26 -0500 (EST) From: Theurgus To: rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com, KenShaw007@aol.com CC: rm-l@troubador.com, yoda_obi@juno.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia@nmol.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, dcombe@rain.org, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com Hail Mutants! I had a really energising talk with Don Bradley the other night, and it made me realize that there are things I aught to be doing. One of those things is going back to the foundational documents of the restoration, looking at them again, as if for the first time, and trying to extract their essential meaning from the standpoint of all the research I've done so far in "Christian Origins". I'm starting with the original Book of Commandments published by the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) because I've never understood why Joseph turned the verbatum revelations over to a faceless committee to be mutilated into the form we know as the Doctrine and Covenants. The original revelations are plain speaking and very clear. What I''m doing is going though the revelations and looking for every word that seems to be pointing to a hebrew or greek theological term and either rendering back into the hebrew or greek or translating it forward into a more literal meaning, which ever will convey what I believe to be the theological intention of the word. I've rendered every occurence of the word "God" as "Elohim" simply because it is used like a personal name in the Tanach (Old Testament) well over 2000 times compared to the 50 or so for "Eloah" or "El". I use "El" whenever "god" is used like a catagory instead of a name. I use the transliteration "Iahueh" (Jehovah) to replace all occurances of "the Lord" because "Iahueh" is simply the best scholarship is able to come up with as an actual pronunciation of YHVH, with"Iahushua" (Jesus) naturaly following. I used "proclaimation" to replace "gospel" because we need to strip away the familiar to see the Real. I'm attaching this as a Word file, please take a look at it and make your critique...I hope you all can do better on this than I. Thanks folks, Ken Shaw THEBOO~1.DOC Name: THEBOO~1.DOC Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) Encoding: base64 Subject: Robert-Where are you at? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:10:34 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, kenshaw@dalsemi.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Robert, I'm trying to map out my future course of action because "current events" have convinced me that something's afoot. It's ironic that the prophecies of the Earliest Brethren (those taught personaly by Joseph) are being fulfilled TO THE LETTER almost exactly 100 years later than they expected, just when the majority of LDS beleive in a "triumphalist" theology of the "Church" just growing and growing until it fills the earth. "The Lord has delayed His coming" they say, and begin to eat and drink with the drunken. Where are you at now? Have you worked out a personal theology and priesthood theory? Are you still hanging with Fred? Where do think the gathering will be and around what standard? I'm trying to figure this stuff out myself because I have a responsibility to my children and others who are connected to me by blood and love. I hope to hear from you soon. Ken Shaw > From 74277.3365@compuserve.com Fri Feb 27 01:49:12 1998 > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:43:57 -0500 > From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> > Subject: Tim Rathbone > Sender: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> > To: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , > Beth , Don Bradley , > Dave , Gaia , > George , Michael Love , > rpc man , Andy McGuire , > Kathleen McGuire , > "neoptolmus@aol.com" , > "R. Trent Reyolds" , Ken Shaw , > Randall Shortridge , > Joe Steve Swick III > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=us-ascii> > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Length: 863 > > The question has been asked as to why we don't want Tim in our group. In > 1974, I was Xed for believing in the Adam-God doctrine. Five years ago I > decided that I wanted to get back into the Church. Two years ago, I renewed > an aquaintance with Tim. A year later (last May), he was present when I > ordained a fellow to the priesthood. The next morning he turned me into the > Church as being an enemy of the Church. The Bishop called me in and told me > that I was not going to be able to rejoin the Church because of the > ordination that I had performed. In a letter of justification to a group of > friends of mine and of his, he stated that he turned me in because he had a > duty to STAMP OUT EVIL IN THE CHURCH. > > Don't trust this guy. He can be real nice when he wants something. But he > can trun on you in a minute. > > He also reads Blayne's E-Mail, so becareful. > > Robert. > Subject: YHVH=Iahueh=Iao=Aion? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:23:34 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, kenshaw@dalsemi.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: younbarb@isu.edu, CYeshua@aol.com, sefirot1@aol.com, jstrimm@swbell.net, clingle@flash.net Ladies and Gentlemen, I've been wondering about something that I hope you can help me with. The Personal Name of Deity as revealed to Moses is represented by the letters YHVH, generaly understood to be the word "hayah" (eternal coming into being) rendered into a name. In the Greco-Egyptian Magical Papyri render the hebrew diety as "Iao" which brings us around to a Gnostic vision. The Greek word "Aion" means both "eternal" and "universe" in the sense of cycles of time like "world ages". The Gnostics used the word "Aion" to designate "self-existant" Powers (gods) who act out the cosmic drama. Is it useful for us to think of YHVH as an Aion in the Gnostic sense? Thanks for your kind consideration. Ken Shaw Subject: Re: YHVH=Iahueh=Iao=Aion? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:53:56 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, kenshaw@dalsemi.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, kenshaw@shemp.dalsemi.com CC: younbarb@isu.edu, CYeshua@aol.com, sefirot1@aol.com, jstrimm@swbell.net, clingle@flash.net Gaia and All, Please lay your stuff on us, it sounds like good solid Kabbalah to me. I'm working on this because of the haunting phrase in Chapter 2 of the Book of Commandments in which the speaker says "my paths are straight and my course is One Eternal Round". "One Eternal Round" is evocative of both "Aion" and the pythagorean image of the Uroboros. Ken Shaw Subject: bundle Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:03:01 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love Subject: Subject: Re: Tim Rathbone Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:19:36 -0500 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus References: 1 I'm in a huge hurry right now, so just a quick affirmative note. Clearly, I have continued my correspondence with Tim. It has been interesting, because he is such a loose cannon. I have to treat him with great caution. I hope that none of you are offended by this interaction, as I have been repeatedly warned about Tim by many of you. It has been intersting. Recently, he sent me the text of one of Reed C. Durham's talks on masonry and mormonism. Are any of you familiar with this document? Would you like me to forward it to the list so that we can poke some holes in it? ;-} perfect love and trust all of you proclus Robert R. Black wrote: > > The question has been asked as to why we don't want Tim in our group. In > 1974, I was Xed for believing in the Adam-God doctrine. Five years ago I > decided that I wanted to get back into the Church. Two years ago, I renewed > an aquaintance with Tim. A year later (last May), he was present when I > ordained a fellow to the priesthood. The next morning he turned me into the > Church as being an enemy of the Church. The Bishop called me in and told me > that I was not going to be able to rejoin the Church because of the > ordination that I had performed. In a letter of justification to a group of > friends of mine and of his, he stated that he turned me in because he had a > duty to STAMP OUT EVIL IN THE CHURCH. > > Don't trust this guy. He can be real nice when he wants something. But he > can trun on you in a minute. > > He also reads Blayne's E-Mail, so becareful. > > Robert. -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Tim's post Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:18:17 -0500 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: proclus CC: rm-l@troubador.com, Tim Rathbone , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus References: 1 Yesterday, I replied to rm-l on this talk and for some reason thought it had been attributed to Vaughn Featherstone, but see it was Jeppson. Pardon. There is something else that really bugs me about this talk.... A premise that so-called 'apostate' groups can be proven false because they do not amount to anything. They do not prosper, etc. This seems to be a drum that is beaten in many talks that cover this subject. I remember GBH saying it and it was printed in the Ensign. But, can't the same reasoning be used to show that the Christian movement led by Peter and Paul were apostate? "All they did was cause devisiveness. These fellows were burned at the stake and eventually faded away when we got a wise fellow like Constatine to put them in their place. Same with Christ, right? He was hung on a cross. That proves him as an apostate." Anyway, hope you get the point. Same as in 4th Nephi. The true church is lost and the popular ones likely called anyone who adhered to the early doctrine as apostate. The unpopularity of the doctrine is proof, they say. Just blabbering. Randall/Eleazar. proclus wrote: > Tim wrote: > > This Talk was first given in the Mt. Olympus S.L.C. Stake. At > > a Stake Leadership meeting on 25 October 1991. Elder Jeppson has > also > > given this talk at other leadership meetings one in the Southern > > California area. > > Recently Elder Jeppson was made Area Presid ent of Southern > > Utah. He is giving this talk with some modifications all around > > Utah to Stake Leaders. > > > > We Shall Not Be Led Astray > > By ELDER MALCOLM S. JEPPSEN of the 70 > > In terms of the changing Church, 1991 was ages ago, no? I feel that > the > Church has a assumed a much less confrontational role since GBH > assumed the > mantle. Isn't this material a little dated? > > As I have stated elsewhere, Mormonism is bigger than anything that we > can say > about it. > > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Tim Rathbone Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:40:16 -0500 From: gaia@nmol.com To: proclus@mac.com GAIA: Sure, i'd be interested in a copy of the document on Masonry...thx! ======== New Mexico Online - Internet Plus, a whole lot more! ========= ======================================================================== = Data: 505-299-1111 Telnet: nmol.com Http: www.nmol.com = ======================================================================== Subject: Re: Tim Rathbone Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:08:48 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: proclus , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , onandagus@webtv.net, neoptolmus@aol.com, Beth any , Theurgus The Durham paper is rather old, but was quite important in its time. It is still deeper water than most members are wont to swim in. If you would like to discuss this, I'm certainly not "agin it." So far as the Malcom Jeppson paper is concerned... I have little good to say on it. I first saw this during the time Bro. Jeppson was in the thick of his "work," and I think that subsequent history speaks for itself. Not every man is a brother, and not every Brother has the welfare of Zion at heart. JSW Subject: the movie "Dark City" Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:40:27 -0500 (EST) From: Theurgus To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia@nmol.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, dcombe@rain.org, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com Hail Mutants! My sons and I saw the new movie "Dark City" last night, and I have to say that it is ASTONISHING! Please go see it! Ken Subject: The Tarot Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 02:44:55 -0500 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Ken Shaw , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III I am hoping that Joe and Gaia have a lot more to say about the Tarot. I was hoping for some discussion. Robert. Subject: Robert-Where are you at? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 02:45:18 -0500 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw CC: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III Ken, >Where are you at now? Have you worked out a personal >theology and priesthood theory? Are you still hanging >with Fred? Where do think the gathering will be and >around what standard? I'm trying to figure this stuff >out myself because I have a responsibility to my children >and others who are connected to me by blood and love. I haven't been hanging with Fred for years. But I got to know him in 1973. I believe a lot like Fred. I believe in the Adam-God doctrine and I believe in plural marriage. I believe that a man must live plural marriage in order to receive exaltation. I believe that the Keys of the Priesthood were given by Joseph Smith to the council of Fifty. One of the men to receive them was Benjamine F. Johnson. Benjamine F. Johnson passed on his keys to Dayer LeBaron who gave them to Ross or Joel LeBaron. These two men gave them to each other to be sure that they each received them. Ross passed on his keys to a select few. Joel did not. I was one of the few that received them from Ross. These keys are available to all who desire to get them from me. There is supposed to be a whole nation of Kings and Priests. But for some reason the Church stopped giving them, primarily because it wanted to stop PM. PM is a neccessary for one to advance in the priesthood. Adoption is also a necessaary part of the Gospel. A person needs to be adopted into the family of God in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom and to receive the Patriarchal priesthood. The gathering place is supposed to be Utah. But there is good reason to believe that a portion of the elite will gather in Mexico. Especially in Pacheco. The was a temple cite dedicated there around the turn of the century. It is exactly where the thirtieth parrelell crosses the continental divide. It was prophesied that the leaders of the Church would have to go there to be protected from those calamities that were to follow. At the present there is not any of the members of the Church there. The colony was abandoned many years ago. Please ask more questions. I will be happppy to answer. Robert. Subject: Re: YHVH=Iahueh=Iao=Aion? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:16:01 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, kenshaw@dalsemi.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, kenshaw@shemp.dalsemi.com CC: younbarb@isu.edu, CYeshua@aol.com, sefirot1@aol.com, jstrimm@swbell.net, clingle@flash.net Gaia, You have to use the "reply all" command to make sure your responses go to everyone on the list. The movie "Dark City" reminded me of the Kalachakra Tantra tradition of tibetian Buddhism. Kalachakra means "circle of time" and is concerned with things like astrological ages (aions) and views the cosmos as a kind of mechanism that allows sudden advences in conciousness only at certain intervals, when a kind of window of "unconditioned" time opens up. Since "time" is now viewed as an actual "substance", the so-called "space-time continuum", then time could be said to be "being" in some sense. The divisions of time into Aions would make indiviual "beings". Since all phenomona arises from space-time as its ultimate "ground", these Aions would be what we think of as being "God". This is the kind of lunacy I'm dreaming up now. Ken Shaw Subject: Re: Robert-Where are you at? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:33:30 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: kenshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com Robert, I really like Fred personaly, but there are a few things about what he's doing that strike me funny, and maybe a little delusional and obsessive. I know how easy it is for the "self" to sneek in and claim the robe of sanctity. I've made a connection to the Sufi tradition of Islam, and the more I learn, the more it looks like what Joseph Smith had in mind. The "Law of Adoption" looks like the connection that followers make with the Sufi Shaykh in Islam, or the Rebbe in Hasidic Judaism, or the Guru in Tantric Buddhism. All these things are refering to a Reality that Joseph somehow came to understand independantly. Where are you living? I'd like to visit with you one of these days. Ken Shaw Subject: Halachic Worship? Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:42:03 -0500 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw CC: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III Ken, > The singing of Psalms and Prayers in Hebrew, perhaps >using the melodies marked in the text called "cantilation" >as well as the ancient and primordial Pentatonic scale of >pure fifths instead of modern tunings. There is a "call >and response" form where the leader sings one part and the >congregation responds with the other. There are a half dozen ways that the cantilation marks can be interpreted. Which is the most authentic. >I would also add that there is plenty of circumstantial >evidence that the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy preserves >very old material and it would serve us well to consider >the use of candles or oil lamps for lighting as well as >Halachicly formulated incense for censing the Ark of the >Torah, the Torah Scroll itself, the Reader, and the >Congregation. You ought to visit the Syrian Church some time. They have it all. As for me and my house, let us worship in an informal and spirit filled kind of way. Robert. Subject: YHVH=Iahueh=Iao=Aion? Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:42:20 -0500 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw CC: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III Ken, >Is it useful for us to think of YHVH >as an Aion in the Gnostic sense? As I remember YHVH was an Aion in the Gnostic sense. And a wicked one at that. Robert. Subject: The Tarot Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:42:54 -0500 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Ken Shaw , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III Joe, >I am happy to continue on with the discussion if there is an interest. >Would anyone like to discuss the Magician? > >Regards, >JSW By all means, Joe, let's go. Robert. Subject: Re: 12th Planet Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:55:35 -0500 From: Michael Love To: proclus@mac.com GAIA: More on Tarot, RE: Temperance and the Star cards: Note too that while the Star has the Angel pouring out the blessings of God upon the Earth from Above, the Temperance card h as the angel actually upon the earth, one foot on the ground, the other on the water (in some decks). ON THE STAR (#17): The Goddess called Mistress of Earth and Sea; reappears on the 17th trump. Her earlier counterpart, the Empress, was clothed, but now she is revealed, "sky-clad"....pouring out living waters on land and sea from her two jars (breasts) while 7 stars shine above, one brightest. The card was also the Star of Isis, symbolic of the annual Nile flood that brought the food of life too all.....Hermetic texts invoked as Mother Isis the same star-Goddess, known in Carthage as the Celestial Virgin or Astroarche, Queen of Stars. It was usual for the Goddess to be accompanied by 7 priestesses,....andseveral names of the Goddess (Astarte, Ishtar, Esther, Ashtoreth, Ostara or Eostre - mean "Star" and are the origins for "Easter". The oracular 7 were the original 7 Sages of Arabia, were said to be female, known as the 7 Pillars of Wisdom, and the ir wise sayings were Wisdom's "pearls"...Proverbs 9:1 speaks of "Goddess of Wisdom, hewn out her 7 pillars." Also refers to the Pleiades, all daughters of Aphrodite, whose totemwasa dove. Another of her titles, "Stella Maris," "Star of the Sea", was later copied by Christians and applied to Virgin Mary,. The image of the Holy Spiriti descending on Jesus in form of a dove was copied from the iconography of the Goddess. The annual Tibetan festival of "settiang free of the waters of springs" is still announced by the rising of the Dog Star.....Sothis (Sirius), the soul of Osiris in heaven. The rising of his star was heralded by the 3 wise men, the three stars in the belt of Orion, which point toward the Dog Star. In Asia Minor the Star goddess was Artemis Caryatis, often worshipped in the form of a pillar. Portraits of her seven priestesses were the caryatides, original "pillars of the Church" carved in the shape of women. After the destruction of the House of God (the previous caard in the Trumps) the Goddess' reappe arance i n the M aj or Arcana may be interpreted as a wish-fulfilllment symbol of the post-revolutionary world, when the Godess/ Heavenly Mother would be restored to Her rightful place. This relates a bit to another myth -- the Grail legend, which was actually pre-christian in origin. The grail has always been a symbol of female power/ energy, Goddess as nurturer, even as Her breasts (in whose form the cup/ chalice is shaped) nurture all life. The Crusaders brought back stories of a dreadful land to the south that was hot and desolate. The Norse had a legend about the "Mutspell" - the most frigtening, dreadful curse that could be spoken - the curse of a mother over her thoughtless, ungrateful children. They believed that the world would end in a future time when "the Great Goddess would pronounce upon the world Her Mutspell, because of its faithlessness and lack of appreciation, when men would forget or discredit/ dishonor their mothers." She would bring upon them the curse of Desolation. The symbol would be a loss of the Grail - the blessings and powers of the Goddess, the nurturing of the Female principle, and they would learn (perhaps too late) their folly in failing to perceive the divinity in females. THIS is the origin/ meaning of the Grail legend. In her great and critically acclailmed book, "the Chalice and the Blade," Rianne Eisler recounts this lengend, and explains the true meaning of the "Hieros Gamos" - the union symbolized by the symbolic union of the chalice (grail) and the blade (knife) : that signifies the sacred union of all dualities: male and female, light and darkness, logic and emotion, mind and body, spirit and matter, heaven and earth, order and chaos, birth and death, etc. Hope somebody enjoys this -- Gaia ======== New Mexico Online - Internet Plus, a whole lot more! ========= ======================================================================== = Data: 505-299-1111 Telnet: nmol.com Http: www.nmol.com = ======================================================================== Subject: [Fwd: pseudo-History] Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:55:57 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love Subject: pseudo-History Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:31:24 -0600 From: "Norman H. Redington" To: love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Hello: I notice you have a St. Dionysius page. We have the Syriac Liturgy of St Dionysius at: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/dionysius/lit.html Hopefully we will eventually have all the Areopagetic writings there. Dionysios Redington St Pachomius Library Subject: Re: [Fwd: pseudo-History] Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:37:48 -0500 From: proclus To: Michael Love , "Norman H. Redington" References: 1 Thank you so much for this information, which I have passed on to my friends. I am excited to hear that there will finally be Dionysian writings on the web! Will give the liturgy a link in a few days. Thank you for your work on the web. proclus > Hello: > > I notice you have a St. Dionysius page. We have > the Syriac Liturgy of St Dionysius at: > http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/dionysius/lit.html > Hopefully we will eventually have all the > Areopagetic writings there. > > Dionysios Redington > St Pachomius Library -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: YHVH=>Eternal Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:21:24 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: Armstrong.Trent@amstr.com, aub-l@troubador.com, dialbart@sisna.com, bbashaw@gtelco.net, c.blase@mailexcite.com, BrigitteNi@aol.com, bhuntin687@aol.com, rtcc@train.missouri.org, chrisbly@hotmail.com, koes@gowebway.com, bro-brigham@worldnet.att.net, detcpa7@aol.com, babbel@wharton.upenn.edu, dcombe@rain.org, mirele@xmission.com, haileycat@yahoo.com, rmucofmt@train.missouri.org, j.ahlin@m.cc.utah.edu, dela@infowest.com, gunthers@earthlink.net, jswick@cris.com, johnrl@mail.aros.net, mormon@lofthouse.com, mahonri@eee.org, klarson@tlcmanti.org, kelvinh@apricot.mee.com, kenshaw@dalsemi.com, polygamy@lov.com, ravensara@tlcmanti.org, lowellmj@juno.com, mkchurch@worldnet.att.net, nathan.t@virgin.net, pmdlady@aol.com, tkj@burgoyne.com, rkadams@earthlink.net, oh.dad@juno.com, ron7@rocketmail.com, smith@manti.com, William_Cooper_3@compuserve.com, wng@jbs.org, taxplan@manti.com CC: proclus@mac.com Wayne, It's great to hear from ya' man! I'm planning a trip to Utah this summer and would like to visit you. I'm forwarding this post that I sent to a "Jewish Roots" list because you might find it of interest. Ken Shaw --------------------------------------------------------------------- James and All, I've been wondering about the possiblity of actually translating out the name YHVH into some kind of english equivalent, and then just using that english equivalant as the Name. I know that the Reform Siddur uses "Eternal" as the translation of YHVH, which makes sense because of the root meaning of was-is-always-being. I've suggested the awkward sounding "existence-itself", but that has a harsh "modern philosophy" quality to it. The reason I'm going through this exercise is that the compound Name YHVH-Elohim (the Lord God) takes on a whole new light if it's translated out literally as "Eternal-Gods". Thanks folks, Ken Shaw Subject: hot bundle from Ken Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:38:06 -0500 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love Subject: Subject: mutantRMs Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:02:09 -0500 (EST) From: Theurgus To: mutants@iname.com Proclus, I hate to be a pain-in-the-ass, but could you make Theurgus@aol.com my "official" Mutant name and address? Thanks man, Ken Subject: MED: visions/texts Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:35:12 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com CC: jswick@cris.com, onandagus@webtv.net, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, younbarb@isu.com ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From owner-mediators@st-andrews.ac.uk Thu Mar 5 11:29:31 1998 From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: mediators@st-andrews.ac.uk Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:08:12 +000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: MED: visions/texts Reply-To: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-mediators@st-andrews.ac.uk Content-Length: 1773 Ian Hutchesson asks what the point/benefit is of asking whether "vision" experiences may lie behind this or that ancient text. I fully grant the theoretical difficulty in trying deal with what kind of religious experientiality ancients enjoyed. But as to the rationale for the question, it is simply part of historical investigation of ancient Judaism, ancient Christianity, ancient "paganism" to want to know what was the religious life like. The surviving texts were "thrown up" by some force(s), and the "religious" ones by "religious" forces (with allowance that what constitutes "religious" is very historically & culturally variable). So, Ian, however difficult it may be to satisfy a determined critic of one's results, the question of what sorts of experience may have contributed to the vision-accounts in ancient apocalyptic & other forms of texts is simply a quite understandable historical one. We cannot interview the ancient authors, but neither can we interview the authors of other ancient texts, or the users of ancient artefacts, or anybody else from antiquity. But this needn't stop valid historical inquiry as to what kinds of human life, experience, thought, activities may have been going on. And the ways we address such questions involve analogous phenomena. And we have lots of examples of religious movements & texts arising from the powerful religious experiences of founder figures (or "minor founder figures"). It's going on currently. African Independent churches, Japanese indiginous movements, Ghost Dance movement, Baha Ullah, Guru Nanak, etc. etc. L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk ----- End Included Message ----- Subject: [rm-l] useful hermetic magic website Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:40:05 -0600 (CST) From: kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) Reply-To: rm-l@troubador.com To: rm-l@mail.cm2.com Howdy! I found some kewl magic stuff at: www.tiac.net/users/wgenest/index.html Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Renagade Radical Rude Radiant Whatever you want it to be called... Mormon Doctrinal Discussion List Visit the Mahonri web site at http://www.troubador.com/~mahonri For help send mail to rm-l-info@troubador.com with the word "help" in the body of the message. To be removed from the list send mail to rm-l-info@troubador.com with the words "DELETE mynam@myserver" in the body of the message RULE #1: NO FIGHTING OR PERSONAL INSULTS. TAKE IT OFF LIST. Subject: Robert new address Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:05:17 -0500 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Ken Shaw , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: INTERNET:tim-rathbone@juno.com, INTERNET:tim-rathbone@juno.com TO: Robert R. Black, 74277,3365 DATE: 03-12-98 10:12 PM RE: Robert new address Sender: tim-rathbone@juno.com Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) with ESMTP id WAA19398 for ?.3365@compuserve.com> Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:11:49 -0500 (EST) From: tim-rathbone@juno.com Received: (from tim-rathbone@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WsI07889; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:10:55 EST To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com Subject: Robert new address Message-ID: ?.191106.4743.0.Tim-Rathbone@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-7 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:10:55 EST Robert for now this is my new e mail address. how are you? how have you been? My system crashed so if you could please tell Mike Love proclus that this is my new address and joe swick.. and others on the mutantrm list. thanks. much Tim _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subject: [Fwd: Durham presentation] Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:31:55 -0500 From: Michael Love To: proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Durham presentation Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:18:32 -0500 (EST) From: Neoptolmus To: proclus@mac.com I have inadvertantly deleted my copy of the Reed Durham piece on the widow's son. Would it be to much trouble to send me another copy? Trevo r Subject: GODS-R-US Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:58:38 -0800 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Blayne Sukut , Beth any , Vicki Porritt , "Yoshimi Nagai (Nihon Convention Serv)" , Michael Love , Kathleen McGuire , George Head , Gaia , Cyril Huang , Brian Irwin , ArtdeHoyos , "Kathy E. Christensen" , Richh Hiltbrunn , Stephen Escobedo More cool "religious statuary" than you can shake a thyrsus at! And you thought the gods of the ancient world were dead... Buy your own Asherah! Buy a statue of Baal for your office or study! Some of the greate st idols of all time, and I don't mean rock stars! Just go here: http://jblstatue.com/pages/ and be very amazed. Now you know just how new the new age is! JSW (PS. My own favorite is the "Net Goddess." I imagine that she will soon be rehabilitated as a symbol of WorldWide Web) Subject: Hey out there! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:27:33 -0800 (PST) From: Beth any To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, donbradley@webtv.net, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, Sidheach@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia@nmol.com Hey everyone! It's Beth here. I've been without a computer for awhile. Had to give it up in the divorce and all. My life is just not the same without the net and especially this list. I wanted to ask Proclus if he is still archiving this stuff? If I could get the address to the website that has the archives I'd kiss your feet 1000 times. I am really mad I probably missed all the Tarot stuff. Been studying it a great deal lately. So hopefully some of that stuff is saved somewhere..... Well if anyone has any old computers they want to get rid of I'm interested :-) ....... he he he.... I have a new phone number. Anyone who wants to call is always more than welcome. 925 (new area code, I hope that's correct) 938- 0176. Hey Gaia - Let me know when you are done with my books and video. I have a waiting list for them. More importantly let me know if you found any of it useful or of interest. Thanks. Love y'all. I'll be back at some point (with a vengeance ;-) Beth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Subject: world scriptures Date: Sat, 04 A pr 19 9 8 15:14:12 -0500 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus Here is an excellent list of the scriptures of many nations that are available on line. http://www.cweb.net/~christer/religion-script.html regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: world scritures Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 15:17:09 -0500 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus I was thinking of adding a link to this webpage from the mutant homepage, as these things require some long term attention. Let me know what you think. Here is the link again. http://www.cweb.net/~christer/religion-script.html proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: The Sufis Mystery Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:25:24 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com Hail Mutants! This intimate little circle has practicaly fallen silent the past few weeks...sooo... this is an effort to stir up the beehive. The Protestants are absolutly correct in saying that Mormonism is an irreconcilable heresy that no connection at all to "historical Christianity". That's fine...why would anyone want to be "Christian" from their point of view, unless one wanted to present a "normative" face to the world so as to exploit masses of "converts" to get the "gain and praise of the world". I'm here to report that, after 25 years of trying to figure out what Joseph Smith was actually trying to do, it looks like he was an agent of some kind of "Gnostic" Islam. The Sufis claim that their tradition has been in continuous operation on this planet since the "begining", and that there exists a community somewhere in the mountains of Kafiristan or Afghanistan called the Sarmoun Brotherhood that has been in continuous operation since the Flood of Noah. "Sarmoun" is Persian for "Bees", which describes their function of gathering "nectar" and distributing "pollen" for the development of humanity leading to eventual planetary fulfilment and salvation. The Abrahamic tradition is a specialized "subset" of the greater Noachide tradition. Abraham paid tithes and shared a sacramental meal with Melchizedek, Priest of El Elyon. Who was this Melchizedek? The Talmud states that he was none other than Shem, the son of Noah who came through the Flood, and that he had established a Yeshiva (religious school) for the passing on the knowledge of the prediluvian world to this new world in it's new state. The Sufis then are claiming that this Melchizedekian school still exists in the mountains of central Asia, and is continuing its work in the world. Who WERE the "wise men from the East" who came looking for the newborn Davidic Heir Iaohushua (Jesus)...in exactly the same way that Tibetans go looking for their precious teachers by following dreams and signs? In the Gospel of Philip we see Jesus leading his deciples in a "circle dance" which leads to unusual experiences. This technique has continued down to this day is the Sufi Orders of Islam, and has spread out in various forms from the pop new-age "Dances of Universal Peace", to Scottish round dancing and Morris (Moorish) dancing, to the widdershins circling of the "Black Man" (Moor) in European "witchcraft". There is a mystery here, and here, at the end of history, we need to conciously make the next step to a religion meant for grown-ups, instead of being held in perpetual childhood by the Big Daddy Patriarchy. Ken Shaw Subject: The Sufis Mystery Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:25:24 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com Hail Mutants! This intimate little circle has practicaly fallen silent the past few weeks...sooo... this is an effort to stir up the beehive. The Protestants are absolutly correct in saying that Mormonism is an irreconcilable heresy that no connection at all to "historical Christianity". That's fine...why would anyone want to be "Christian" from their point of view, unless one wanted to present a "normative" face to the world so as to exploit masses of "converts" to get the "gain and praise of the world". I'm here to report that, after 25 years of trying to figure out what Joseph Smith was actually trying to do, it looks like he was an agent of some kind of "Gnostic" Islam. The Sufis claim that their tradition has been in continuous operation on this planet since the "begining", and that there exists a community somewhere in the mountains of Kafiristan or Afghanistan called the Sarmoun Brotherhood that has been in continuous operation since the Flood of Noah. "Sarmoun" is Persian for "Bees", which describes their function of gathering "nectar" and distributing "pollen" for the development of humanity leading to eventual planetary fulfilment and salvation. The Abrahamic tradition is a specialized "subset" of the greater Noachide tradition. Abraham paid tithes and shared a sacramental meal with Melchizedek, Priest of El Elyon. Who was this Melchizedek? The Talmud states that he was none other than Shem, the son of Noah who came through the Flood, and that he had established a Yeshiva (religious school) for the passing on the knowledge of the prediluvian world to this new world in it's new state. The Sufis then are claiming that this Melchizedekian school still exists in the mountains of central Asia, and is continuing its work in the world. Who WERE the "wise men from the East" who came looking for the newborn Davidic Heir Iaohushua (Jesus)...in exactly the same way that Tibetans go looking for their precious teachers by following dreams and signs? In the Gospel of Philip we see Jesus leading his deciples in a "circle dance" which leads to unusual experiences. This technique has continued down to this day is the Sufi Orders of Islam, and has spread out in various forms from the pop new-age "Dances of Universal Peace", to Scottish round dancing and Morris (Moorish) dancing, to the widdershins circling of the "Black Man" (Moor) in European "witchcraft". There is a mystery here, and here, at the end of history, we need to conciously make the next step to a religion meant for grown-ups, instead of being held in perpetual childhood by the Big Daddy Patriarchy. Ken Shaw ----- End Included Message ----- Subject: [Fwd: The Sufis Mystery] Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 12:27:17 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus Subject: The Sufis Mystery Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:25:24 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: proclus@mac.com Hail Mutants! This intimate little circle has practicaly fallen silent the past few weeks...sooo... this is an effort to stir up the beehive. The Protestants are absolutly correct in saying that Mormonism is an irreconcilable heresy that no connection at all to "historical Christianity". That's fine...why would anyone want to be "Christian" from their point of view, unless one wanted to present a "normative" face to the world so as to exploit masses of "converts" to get the "gain and praise of the world". I'm here to report that, after 25 years of trying to figure out what Joseph Smith was actually trying to do, it looks like he was an agent of some kind of "Gnostic" Islam. The Sufis claim that their tradition has been in continuous operation on this planet since the "begining", and that there exists a community somewhere in the mountains of Kafiristan or Afghanistan called the Sarmoun Brotherhood that has been in continuous operation since the Flood of Noah. "Sarmoun" is Persian for "Bees", which describes their function of gathering "nectar" and distributing "pollen" for the development of humanity leading to eventual planetary fulfilment and salvation. The Abrahamic tradition is a specialized "subset" of the greater Noachide tradition. Abraham paid tithes and shared a sacramental meal with Melchizedek, Priest of El Elyon. Who was this Melchizedek? The Talmud states that he was none other than Shem, the son of Noah who came through the Flood, and that he had established a Yeshiva (religious school) for the passing on the knowledge of the prediluvian world to this new world in it's new state. The Sufis then are claiming that this Melchizedekian school still exists in the mountains of central Asia, and is continuing its work in the world. Who WERE the "wise men from the East" who came looking for the newborn Davidic Heir Iaohushua (Jesus)...in exactly the same way that Tibetans go looking for their precious teachers by following dreams and signs? In the Gospel of Philip we see Jesus leading his deciples in a "circle dance" which leads to unusual experiences. This technique has continued down to this day is the Sufi Orders of Islam, and has spread out in various forms from the pop new-age "Dances of Universal Peace", to Scottish round dancing and Morris (Moorish) dancing, to the widdershins circling of the "Black Man" (Moor) in European "witchcraft". There is a mystery here, and here, at the end of history, we need to conciously make the next step to a religion meant for grown-ups, instead of being held in perpetual childhood by the Big Daddy Patriarchy. Ken Shaw Subject: Re: [Fwd: The Sufis Mystery] Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 14:44:11 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Ne optolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 In this connection, I just ordered The Sufis from Amazon, and I expect to have it read in about three weeks. More Later... proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: [Fwd: mutant discussions] Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:16:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus To: proclus@mac.com, 106615.1176@compuserve.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia@nmol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com Hail Mutants! I've decided to start sending y'all copies of my notes from our sessions with our Sufi preceptor, Mr. Sabourie. Ken KENSHA~1.DOC Name: KENSHA~1.DOC Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) Encoding: base64 Subject: [Fwd: mutant discussions] Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:45:46 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Alex Wallis , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus Hail Mutants! I received this beautiful piece of work (self-referal?) on correspondence from the web site. Check it out. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: mutant discussions Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 13:10:57 -0700 From: Alex Wallis To: mutants@iname.com I am English, former LDS missionary, now member of the Rosicrucian Order. The following may be of interest. Alexander Wallis 106615.1176@compuserve.com One My first placement as a missionary was Bridgend in South Wales, where I was placed for the first six months of my mission. I was there so long on account of my first companion and trainer Elder Stevens. Elder Stevens, although an unremarkable man in many ways, had an unrivalled influence over my thinking during this ‘formative’ period. >From my perspective he was the exalted teacher, selected to train me in his likeness. And Elder Steve ns certainly did ha ve a recurring message for me - that I should not seek for any reward but only the privilege of doing what is right. During my first days in the mission field, I had been determined that I would eventually climb up the mission ladder and hold the prestigious title of Assistant to the President. This attitude irked the rather more humble and selfless Stevens and he determined, through word and deed, to show me a better motivation. It is difficult to illustrate how profound and far reaching Stevens message and example was. But as this new morality grew within me, I saw my mission as a labour of love rather than something I had to do to get to the Celestial Kingdom or to exalt myself in some other way. By extension of this concept, I later became disenchanted with the Plan of Salvation and the whole Mormon emphasis of aiming to achieve Heaven, rather than serving God for the love of it. Ironically Elder Stevens fine advice eventually led me to leave the church. As part of my personal progress, Elder Stevens had recommended to the President that it would be good for me to baptise in my first area. So I was stuck there until that happened. This six months incidentally was long enough a residence for me to fall in love with a young married woman who was investigating the Church. I think she kept expecting something to happen between us and couldn’t understand why I was always accompanied by another young man when I visited her. I saw her as the romantic damsel in need of saving from her ignorant heathen husband. In my mind I dreamed of the consummation of our affections in one sublime act - her baptism. Ultimately we were both denied. On 9pm on my first Christmas Eve in the field, I was relaxing in my flat with my new German companion Elder Westermann. Westermann was a devoted missionary who believed that his parents would be converted if he served an honourable mission. Heartbreakingly he was later excommunicated for being a homosexual, a tendency I may have inadvertently encouraged by putting cold slices of ham under his blankets to frighten him when he went to bed. A knock at the door announced the unexpected visitation of our neighbour, whom we had never met, but whom we had sometimes heard shagging someone’s brains out (usually to the tune of ‘Spirit of Radio’ by Rush). The gentleman was about fifty years of age, plump, rugged and Irish. And a Catholic. He had not called on us to deliver a Christmas pngt, but to announce that he had ‘lost contact with God’. Being the superheroes that we were, we responded to his alarm call and were invited into his flat which was adorned by glossy pictures of John Paul II. Of course we knew a universal cure to the spiritual ailments of mankind - the first discussion. So that dark December night we retold the story of Joseph Smith’s first vision and presented our beneficiary with a complimentary copy of the Book of Mormon. Our Catholic friend was overcome with emotion and wept during most of the presentation. Our preaching provided a cathartic opportunity for him to repent for all the rampant midnight fornication that had no doubt troubled his soul deeply. At the end of our polished and fervent presentation he made the astounding claim; ‘I feel closer now to Joseph Smith than I do to Jesus Christ.’ Well, obviously this statement was a little disturbing, but coming from a Catholic we had to notch it up as an outstanding result. I followed Elder Westermann back into our flat and saw my copy of ‘Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith’ laying face up on the bed. Looking at the painted portrait on the cover I suddenly had the strangest sensation of the presence of the prophet himself. It was uncanny, as if the picture itself was real. I doubted my senses until Elder Westermann interrupted my thoughts by saying; ‘Something about the cover of your book just had a really strange impact on me.’ We vainly speculated that maybe somewhere in the Spirit World, the prophet had decided to join two Elders on a missionary discussion for Christmas Eve. But was it right that Joseph Smith had produced so much more impact on our listener than Jesus Christ? There is no neat finish to this tale. The next day our neighbour woke up and continued being a Catholic and we continued to hunt for a convert to baptise. Like all the players in this story, it is a perfect paradox. An uneven slice of my memory. Two Hereford was life, summer. It was our town and we spent our days strolling around the park interrupting picnics to have theological discussions with hippy chicks. We carried clipboards adorned with dynamic pictures of ancient prophets who had rippling muscles, much like my companion who worked out for an hour every morning in our landlords gym. ‘You teach me the scriptures and I’ll teach you to pump iron,’ he proposed. And like two cops in a cheesy buddy-buddy movie, this arrangement worked out amicably for both. We gave out hundreds of copies of the Book of Mormon every week. We had taken literally President Benson’s call to ‘flood the world’ and were trying to drown Hereford in a tide of scripture. When we were not working the park we were teaching Debbie and Lynne, two ‘tarts with a heart of gold’ leading a pretty dismal life. Debbie had a little china pig for every man she’d slept with. We bought flowers for the girls to show them they were valued. More often we hung out with a ‘less-active’ family who loved the missionaries and seemed determined to keep us from doing any work for as long as possible. Their house was a kind of Twilight Zone where absolutely anything could happen. On reflection it’s hard to believe that over the course of our visits the Mother was kidnapped, one of the boys died and my companion met and began a passionate affair with a friend of the family - which led to his excommunication. Personally, I hated going there. Three In Tiverton, Devon I received my first of four assignments to train a new missionary. To be a trainer was considered the most prestigious role within the mission, and one which I was given more frequently than any other Elder in the England Bristol Mission. Elder Saunders was my trainee, a dedicated enthusiastic Brit who made a fine prot*g* and was able to keep up with the exacting hours of door-knocking which I put in and also the numerous hours of Bible study. It was at this time that I determined to be able to win any debate on the scriptures and my Bible began to become littered with cross-referenced passages and inserts. Over the two years the book became increasingly decrepit through over-use and it’s ragged pages now sit proudly on my book shelf. Our prime investigator was a divorcee named Margaret and her young son. Margaret was so enamoured with us that she’d didn’t even bat an eyelid when we broke into her house so that we could video the Tyrone Power movie ‘Brigham Young’ while she was out. On my last night in Tiverton, Margaret admitted that her interest had been more romantic that spiritual. While others were absorbed by the facade of a true and living church, Margaret was the attracted by the equally ‘too good to be true’ illusion that we as missionaries projected. I could only tell her that missionaries seem to be perfect until you become one. Like the church itself, we were all well intentioned but only human. Four Bath was a pivotal point in my mission. I became a District Leader, responsible for the activities of a small group of missionaries. It was here that I became fully initiated into the light and dark sides of the mission. My Zone Leader and role model was Elder Wright, a charismatic Pakistani Elder whose enthusiasm and most of all boldness was contagious. His example sometimes inspired me to act like a self-appointed prophet and call people to repentance and make outrageous promises of destruction if they rejected my message. Great fun. It was now that I first began to feel the pressure enforced by the Mission President to produce a ‘quota’ of conversions. This was done by the offering of day trips as incentives for missionaries who performed. Causing the President some (mild at this stage) irritation, I declined to advertise these offers to my district. We didn’t want any ‘prizes’ for our service. We caused further offence by inadvertently qualifying for a day out with the President and not turning up for it. The quality of your companions would decide whether day to day life was Heaven or Hell. You did everything except take a bath with your companion. My first companion in Bath was Paul Holdaway, a very kind, unassuming genuine person. Everybody loved Paul like a brother. If someone in the street was rude to him I’d all but condemn them to Hell. Bath was full of culture and atmosphere, Paul and I would sit in a tiny cafe that overlooked the Cathedral and teach Colette the discussions. Colette was a sweet lady of artistic temperament who would copy out her prayerful questions for God and also the rather esoteric answers which He would give her. One afternoon Paul and I were visited one day by a suicidal investigator named Alex, who would sometimes slit his wrists open with the tab of a coke can. Alex had an unusually strange aura about him on that night and we blessed him and then knelt to pray together. While praying I felt increasingly uneasy. Suddenly I had the sensation of an invisible energy reaching through my body and grabbing my spirit and trying to pull me across the room towards where Alex was praying (not an experience I recommend). I jumped to my feet, as did Paul, but Alex did not move but just knelt shuddering as if seized by epilepsy. After some hesitation I held my arm to the square and felt an enormous rush of power flow through me, as if I could command the building to collapse and it would happen. I commanded evil spirits to depart, and after a few moments the tumultuous feelings were replaced by peace. Alex arose and said that he had been unable to breathe until he had heard my voice. Weeks later Paul was transferred and replaced by another American, Elder Barrows - possibly the most irritating person ever unleashed upon the world. Barrows would argue with me while we were teaching investigators, kick the shit out of trees while walking down the street and sit in the flat making noises like a video game. Many nights I lay in bed and contemplated putting a knife to his throat. Five Despite my determination not to support the Mission incentive schemes, I became a junior Zone Leader and was moved to Newquay for the summer. My companions were Senior Zone Leaders and I soon learned that generally speaking Zone Leaders were the most lazy and indolent missionaries conceivable. One notable exception was Elder Hall who was so extremely hardworking (and self righteous) that he thought I was lazy. Elders were not usually placed here during the hot months on account of the proliferation of bikini glad girls. What was of greater distraction to my companions and I was the ‘Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles’ game at the amusement arcade at which we became champions. However I did become quite smitten by a gorgeous young born-again Christian who would interrupt my street preaching to denounce me as the anti-Christ. She had a quite incredible bum. Six My penultimate area was marked by my promotion to Senior Zone Leader, which meant I had the leverage to more easily encourage my typically lazy and incredibly short tempered Junior Zone Leader companion to do some work. One of the high-points of this difficult time was the New Age bookshop where I would browse through titles on other subjects which fascinated me such as Atlantis, Automatic Writing and the Essenes. We were also frequented by the Jehovah’s Witnesses who by now I was somewhat expert in confounding. My favourite investigator was a young, handsome Church of England Vicar who loved to debate the Bible as much as I did. We would meet and have a fantastic time arguing for several hours. Our verbal cut and thrust would be embellished with jibes such as ‘I’v e got you on the ropes now’ and ‘now get out of that one’. Then his wife would bring up hot chocolate and biscuits. We prayed together and he explained that he felt the spirit as strongly about his faith as I did about mine. He was my friend and I knew he spoke the truth. At this stage things came to a head between myself and the mission hierarchy. I was still refusing to support the use of incentive schemes to encourage missionaries to baptise more people and in (my final) meeting of the 12 Zone Leaders and the Mission President, the issue was thrown open for discussion. I was surprised that only two other Elders supported me when I stated that this was an inappropriate way to serve God. I argued that the Biblical prophets were not motivated by a day trip to the zoo when they went out preaching. Elder Hall was among those who supported my view. However my role model Elder Wright kept silent - betraying his ambition to ascend the mission hierarchy first and foremost, and this by being a ‘yes’ man to the President. What was worse was the vehemence of some who defended the incentive program, and attacked me with such vicious words that I thought their world might crumble if they couldn’t go on a boat trip with the President. Perhaps the President would have relented if the Zone Leaders had been united in abolishing incentive schemes, but the tide was clearly going in the other direction. Finally he closed the argument by announcing that the scheme would continue and that we were in ‘cloud kookoo land’ if we thought missionaries could be encouraged any other way. I retorted that this remark was offensive to my own beliefs and those of some others present and that I wished my protest to go down on the record. After the meeting I asked to be released as a Zone Leader (not because of the debate but because I hated my uninspired and lazy companions) and requested to finish my mission training a new and highly motivated missionary. The President was happy to oblige. Seven My final, and best placement, was in Cardiff. Where four of us Elders shared a large flat above a service station. Elder Kerr was our District Leader, a very serious and humourless person who, in astonishment, asked me; ‘have you always been this apostate?’ when I was up 1 minute beyond our 9.30pm curfew. Kerr’s companion was Elder Troy Williams. Troy was creative, imaginative, anti-authoritarian and not particularity suited to the regimentation of modern missionary life. When I had been his Zone Leader we had not seen eye-to-eye. Things could not have been more different now, Troy was applying his creativity to his mission and I no longer represented (or cared for) the mission hierarchy. We began a friendship which would extend long after our missions. Troy and I contrived to produce a theatrical production which would consist of dramatised episodes from the Book of Mormon. I wrote the script ‘Voices from the Dust’ and Troy directed and produced the performance. Missionaries from all over the Zone became involved as did local Church members. At first I had thought the undertaking extremely ambitious but with Troy’s vision and resourcefulness ‘Voices from the Dust’ became a well polished and inspiring production. The many who attended were overwhelmed by the quality of our production, including the Mission President. Church leaders financed us to repeat the performance to another congregation and to produce the sequel, another Wallis and Williams theatrical entitled ‘Traitors of Liberty’. For many who had become involved it proved the high point of their missions and was a time of great bonding between all participants. However, d uring this time at C ardif f, as the end of my mission drew near, I sensed that I would not remain a member of the Church long after my return. I discussed this with Elder Kerr who was concerned but seemed to understand. I had given myself wholeheartedly to my mission and I knew that the Church would ask too little from me on my return to satisfy my desire to serve God and live a spiritual life. Eight After joyous re-unions with family and friends, my first year at home caused me great difficulty. I was not part of the ‘world’ but neither could I be part of the Church which lacked substance for a true servant of God. My mission had not been about Mormonism but about my own relationship with God and inner spirit. If anything I had been at odds with the Church throughout my mission. It’s business like approach to things spiritual had been a stumbling block which had led many to have misplaced values. Now I carve my own spiritually through less charted territory. My spirit is my perfect guide, where no borrowed revelations and imperfect institutions can chart a course. Subject: [Fwd: mutant discussions] Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:04:53 -0400 From: Michael Love To: 106615.1176@compuserve.com, Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus I hope that you don't mind my broadcasting this, Andy. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: mutant discussions Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:51:30 -0400 From: "McGuire, Andy" To: 'Alex Wallis' CC: 'Mike' > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Wallis [SMTP:khiron2@arunet.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 1998 2:11 PM > To: mutants > Subject: mutant discussions > > I am English, former LDS missionary, now member of the Rosicrucian > Order. > The following may be of interest. > > Alexander Wallis > 106615.1176@compuserve.com > [McGuire, Andy] Alex, I enjoyed your note. I also was "victim" of a mission companion who turned my head in some interesting directions (Kaballah, then Crowley, then Wicca). His influence eventually caused me to break out from the church, much to his dismay. His name was Elder Love...the same Mike Love who is now hosting the Mutant RM page. But as much as I enjoyed my time with Mike, he had one habit that really annoyed me. When showering, he would always sing at the top of his lungs. It would not have been so bad, except he was always singing the same song: SPIRIT OF RADIO by Rush. -Andy Part 1.17.1.6.1.2.1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: [Fwd: The Sufis Mystery] Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 03:11:25 -0400 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Michael Love CC: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Ken Shaw , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III Michael, >In this connection, I just ordered The Sufis from Amazon, and I expect >to have it read in about three weeks. I have read it. It is one of the half dozen greatest books written. I think that it was by Idries Shaw. Most enlightening. I thought that it was out of print. If Amazon has it, I guess that I must buy another copy. Great Book. Robert. Subject: The Sufi Mystery Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 03:51:07 -0400 From: "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Ken Shaw CC: Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth , Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia , George , Michael Love , rpc man , Andy McGuire , Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , "R. Trent Reyolds" , Ken Shaw , Randall Shortridge , Joe Steve Swick III Ken, >The Protestants are absolutly correct in saying >that Mormonism is an irreconcilable heresy that >no connection at all to "historical Christianity". > >I'm here to report that, after 25 years of trying to figure >out what Joseph Smith was actually trying to do, it looks >like he was an agent of some kind of "Gnostic" Islam. I agree. But to me it looks like he got his stuff from the original Rosicrucian order that died out in (get ready) Pennsylvania about the time that JS was courting Emma. The Rosicrucians got it from the Sufis. Good observations Ken. BTW, Ken, call me sometime. Robert (909) 880-1898. Subject: Sufi teaching on sex Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:24:28 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: kens@cyrix.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, younbarb@isu.edu Howdy! I found this passage in "Mystical Secrets of the Last Days" by Shaykh Muhammed Nazim Adil Al-Haqqani An-Naqshbandi. You may find it of interest. "So physically you can force yourself yourself to drink this whole bottle. The taste will become less and less, but if you can reach the endless oceans of love and beauty of your Lord and you are allowed to enter them, then you may drink and the taste will improve and increase and never become less. So which of these is important to you? To increase your taste or to weaken it every day? Your physical pleasures will become less and less every day. A person may marry a lady, but already the second night becomes less, the third night less, the second month will be less, the third month less. The first year is all right, the second year becomes less. That is the law of nature. You cannot prevent it. But if you reach out to the love of the Lord through your wife and she can reach it through you, then it will increase. I have been for thirty-three years with my wife, but she is still like she was the first night for me and that is my Lord's favor to me because we are asking though that love for the Real Love of God Almighty. It is the most perfect teaching for humanity to make a relationship from that love and to jump from itto your Lord's love, but we lose our chance if we are going to imprison ourselves in our physical love becuase physical love is not the real target. Instead, it is your Lord who is asking for your love because he gave you that love which you have towards her and her love which she has towards you so that you can find your way into the Lords love and be able to reach the endless oceans of love. Today, in our times, people come together for just three days! We are not asking for the love of animals. No! We are humanity, the vicegerents of the Lord, of God. You must represent your Lords love as a male and she must represent her Lords love as a female. Then both will mix and find light. The power goes through two wires. One alone cannot function. Only both of them together. Therefore, when Divine Love pours into your heart, you pour it into her heart and you must join the two loves. It is then going to be your Lord's love. And that is what we are asking for. Therefore, our Grand Shaykh Abayazid was saying, 'I drank oceans and yet I was not satisfied.' Which one do you prefer? Permanent and increasing or temporary and decreasing? You must think about that" I remember seeing a passage in the JD in which Brigham Young said something like: "the Mystery of mysteries; beyond Gods, Angels and Eternities; is the marriage relation." Ken Shaw Subject: Sufi teaching on Armageddon Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:53:03 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: kens@cyrix.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, younbarb@isu.edu Again from "Mystical Secrets of the Last Days": "Grand Shaykh is giving me a guarantee for people during Armageddon. He is saying that there are three points. If they are kept, the person cannot be hurt in the wars. 1. It is impossible for those who deny the Creator to survive. These people must be killed, they will kill each other. 2. All cruel people, cruel people cannot survive, Cruel people will not survive. 3. Envious people: Envious people are the enemy of humanity. They will be killed and harmed according to the envy in their hearts." Subject: more Sufi teaching... Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:17:23 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: kens@cyrix.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, younbarb@isu.edu "It is difficult for people to sacrifice from themselves and to work and pray. It is not easy for people to follow a way which asks them to lead a simpler life drawing closer to nature and becoming more humble. People usually want to be proud, not humble. They don't want to be simple, but to be complex. That is why they want to be far away from nature and run away from it as much as possible. In the big cities they are trying to lose everything concerning nature and to make it artificial. Everything! Such systems bringing people back to life, leading them to their Lord, are usually too strange for the people and too difficult and too impossible. The simple way of establishing beliefs 4000 years ago, when the communities were small and simple, was very different from today and very dificult under these conditions. There can o nly be a few people who are interested and even those will find it difficult to continue practicing. It could be too hard for them because it is so difficult to find such a person who is firm and steadfast in working and praying. It means a fight between you and your ego." Subject: ...on the Anti-Christ... Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:44:01 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: kens@cyrix.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, younbarb@isu.edu "In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. As we know through our traditions, it is clear what will come in the future. Every belief mentions the Last Days, thier signs and what will happen in the Last Days before the Day of Judgement. Every religions also mentions a person who has been called Anti-Christ. The group that will be with him are the people who always come in contact with satan and who easily fall under satan's control. They will be with the Anti-Christ because they are evil in themselves. The satans will carry them to the source of evil and satans: to the Anti-Christ. Another group of people will prepare for the Savior, the Mahdi and Jesus Christ. They are the Saviors. They are coming to save people from evil and satans, because in our times satans are establishing their kingdoms on this planet, from East to West and Noth and South. We are supporters of their kingdom. And I am sorry to say that humanity is the supporters of satans and evil. We are all supporters, s trong supporters. Soon huge events will come on earth because we are supporting satan and his kingdom. As a punishment for our support, a strong fire will come. A storm of fire will blow from the East to the West, and then from the West to the East and from the North to the South, and from the South to the North, from the continents to the oceans and from the oceans to the continents. That is the punishment for humanity because they are supporting the kingdom of the devils on earth now. They are supporting the Anti-Christ. Therefore, the Saviors, Mahdi and Jesus Christ must come. And they will destroy the kingdom of satans on earth. We are declaring to all of you to be supporters of the Saviors and not supporters of the satans, because the supporters of the satans will die, but the supporters of the Saviors will be saved. He who plans, He who is in charge of time, He is absolutely punctual, not like me. When the time is over, no one can prevent His Will." Subject: [Fwd: ...on the ego...] Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:32:30 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: ...on the ego... Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:03:26 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: kens@cyrix.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, sefir ot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol . com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, younbarb@isu.edu "In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compasionate. Adam was carrying all generations on his back. One person was carrying all generations until the end of this world and he was not alone with his ego (Arabic-nafs). Had he been alone only with his ego, he would never have gone to the tree, but all rebellious generations, who were under the control of their egos, were rushing and pulling him to that tree. Therefore, he repented quikly and asked for forgivness and he was forgiven. But satan has an ego and there is no one with him because he was rebellious to his Lord and did not repent. So he has not been forgiven. Now we, as children of Adam and Eve, we all have only one ego. The ego is like a horse or a donkey. You are the rider on it. With your wisdom and with your mind, you must be able to ride on your horse. Why should you otherwise be living on earth? The human being must be the rider. Have you ever seen a person carrying a horse on his shoulders." Subject: Ephiphanius on Sex Magic Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:46:56 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Ken Shaw , 74277.3365@compuserve.com, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, younbarb@isu.edu I found an interesting quote that brought to mind certain practices common to some modern mystery schools: "Epiphanius points to an obscure [Christian] sect called by him the Phibionites, who "unite with each other [sister and brother] in the passion of fornication....The woman and the man take the fluid of the emission of the man into their hands, they stand, turn toward heaven, their hands besmeared by uncleanness, and pray (saying) 'We offer to thee this pngt, the body of Christ,' and then they eat it, their own ugliness, and say: 'This is the gody of Christ and this is the Passover for the sake of which our bodies suffer and are forced to confess the suffering of Christ.' Similarly also with the woman when she happens to be in the floowing of the bllod, they gather the blood of menstruation of her uncleanness and eat it together and say, 'This is the blood of Christ'" (Epiphanius of Salamis, _Panarion_, 26.4-5; as quoted, R. Joseph Hoffman, trans, "Celsus On the True Doctrine: A Discourse Against the Christians," New York: Oxford UP, 1987, p. 17). Subject: Re: Sufi teaching on sex Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:44:58 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Ken Shaw , 74277.3365@compuserve.com, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, younbarb@isu.edu I absolutely loved the quote. Thanks for this, Ken! Sorry for taking so long to respond; my schedule keeps me rather busy these days. Status: website moving along nicely. I have lots of material formatted and ready to go. Regards, JSW -----Original Message----- From: Ken Shaw To: kens@cyrix.com 74277.3365@compuserve.com ?.3365@compuserve.com> sefirot1@aol.com CYeshua@aol.com Cc: ariel144@hotmail.com ArtdeHoyos@aol.com bethany0@hotmail.com onandagus@webtv.net dcombe@rain.org gaia@nmol.com headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu proclus@mac.com rpcman@hotmail.com MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com kathleen@enol.com neoptolmus@aol.com trent@goodnet.com rds@acsu.buffalo.edu jswick@cris.com younbarb@isu.edu Date: Monday, April 13, 1998 7:28 AM Subject: Sufi teaching on sex > >Howdy! > >I found this passage in "Mystical Secrets of the Last Days" by Shaykh >Muhammed Nazim Adil Al-Haqqani An-Naqshbandi. You may find it of interest. > >"So physically you can force yourself yourself to drink this whole bottle. >The taste will become less and less, but if you can reach the endless oceans >of love and beauty of your Lord and you are allowed to enter them, then you may drink and the taste will improve and increase and never become less. So >which of these is important to you? To increase your taste or to weaken it >every day? Your physical pleasures will become less and less every day. >A person may marry a lady, but already the second night becomes less, the >third night less, the second month will be less, the third month less. The >first year is all right, the second year becomes less. That is the law of >nature. You cannot prevent it. > > But if you reach out to the love of the Lord through your wife and she can >reach it through you, then it will increase. I have been for thirty-three years >with my wife, but she is still like she was the first night for me and that is >my Lord's favor to me because we are asking though that love for the Real Love >of God Almighty. It is the most perfect teaching for humanity to make a >relationship from that love and to jump from itto your Lord's love, but we >lose our chance if we are going to imprison ourselves in our physical love >becuase physical love is not the real target. Instead, it is your Lord who >is asking for your love because he gave you that love which you have towards her >and her love which she has towards you so that you can find your way into the >Lords love and be able to reach the endless oceans of love. > > Today, in our times, people come together for just three days! We are not >asking for the love of animals. No! We are humanity, the vicegerents of the >Lord, of God. You must represent your Lords love as a male and she must >represent her Lords love as a female. Then both will mix and find light. > > The power goes through two wires. One alone cannot function. Only both of >them together. Therefore, when Divine Love pours into your heart, you pour it >into her heart and you must join the two loves. It is then going to be your >Lord's love. And that is what we are asking for. Therefore, our Grand Shaykh >Abayazid was saying, 'I drank oceans and yet I was not satisfied.' > >Which one do you prefer? Permanent and increasing or temporary and decreasing? >You must think about that" > > >I remember seeing a passage in the JD in which Brigham Young said something >like: "the Mystery of mysteries; beyond Gods, Angels and Eternities; is the >marriage relation." > >Ken Shaw > > Subject: Mormon / Mason Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:13:19 -0400 (EDT) From: ArtdeHoyos To: jswick@cris.com, kens@cyrix.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, bethany0@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, younbarb@isu.edu Greetings, all, In case you haven't heard the new, my friend Mervin B. Hogan passed away over the weekend at the age of 91. Those of you who also knew Merv will remember him not only as the most prolific writer on Mormonism and Masonry, and the individual who was ultimately responsible for lifting the ban on Utah Mormons becoming Utah Masons, but also as a curious mixture of belief and unbelief. I think he would have made a great Mutant RM. ---Art deHoyos.'. Subject: Re: Sufi teaching on sex Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:57:36 -0400 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus References: 1 Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > I absolutely loved the quote. Thanks for this, Ken! > > Sorry for taking so long to respond; my schedule keeps me rather busy these > days. Status: website moving along nicely. I have lots of material > formatted and ready to go. Joe, be sure to keep us posted about your website. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Tarot cards at Deseret Books Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:12:46 -0400 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus hehe, just kidding. Actually, this was apparently a custumer request at Deseret Books. If you don't believe me, you can check out the website below. I'd like to meet the person who made that humorous request. http://www.deseretbook.com/retail/ proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: tarot veggies Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:24:11 -0400 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus Here is a great little essay on food in the tarot. In this connection, any other Holy Fast and Holy Feast fans out there? http://tarot.readers.com/notes.06 .html I loved the bit about the sunflowers. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: notes from Sufi class Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:51:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia@nmol.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, dcombe@rain.org, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com Hail Mutants, In case any of you are interested in this stuff, I'm send our notes from the English speaking class with with our Sufi teacher Mr. Sabourie. Ken NOTESF~1.DOC Name: NOTESF~1.DOC Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) Encoding: base64 Subject: bundle3 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:16:53 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love Subject: Subject: Fwd: Imam Karim Aga Khan IV on "Koranic Light" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:08:21 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIR EA@al.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, neoptolmus@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com, theurgus@aol.com text Name: text Type: Plain Text (TEXT/PLAIN) Description: text Return-Path: Received: from relay36.mx.aol.com (relay36.mail.aol.com [172.31.40.210]) by air15.mail.aol.com (v41.15) with SMTP; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:55:50 -0400 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by relay36.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA40454904; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA25331; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA25326; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA22010; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:51:39 -0400 Received: from Shaksway@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id JPESa15616 for Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:51:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Shaksway Message-Id: ?c06936.35363719@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:51:35 EDT To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Imam Karim Aga Khan IV on "Koranic Light" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: list Reply-To: tariqas@world.std.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Aga Khan Karim 'Ali on t he Kur 'anic 'light' God is the light of the heavens and the earth. The likeness of this light is a niche in which there is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass like a glittering star, kindled from a blessed olive tree, an olive that is neither of the east nor the west, the oil of which could shine without being touched by fire. Light upon light; God guides whom He please. Quran 24:35 Before we endeavor to interpret the Qur'anic symbols, it is better to make it plain as to what we mean by the four garments, which our traveler has acquired from the 'Strangers at the Gates.' The first was his spiritual body, the function if which is knowing. The second was his mental body, the function of which is thinking. The third was his emotional body, the function of which is feeling. The fourth was his physical body, the function of which is doing. He is endowed with certain faculties: fire , air, water and earth--the four basic elements, which compose the human body. The Quranic verse, with its own fundamental symbols is a manifestation of this truth. The mystery surrounding the whole of the verse must be appreciated at the very outset. God's divine light cannot be revealed directly to man. Why there has never been a direct divine revelation is a definite mystery, but this begins to be unfolded if a human soul by intense meditation reaches its ultimate reality. But so far as we are imprisoned within these physical shells, God shall always speak to humanity in parables. Now we come ultimately to the mystic path to unfold this verse. To all those who wish to tread this path, I beseech: let us walk together in love and prayers and tolerance, so that we may fathom the deeper mysteries of God. The hint given earlier by me can now be revealed more fully and clearly, that this verse and its five symbols stand for man's reincarnation upon this earth--and that within his body, mind, heart, spirit, and what we call 'Life" is hidden his Soul, the Light of God--and it is through his 'Life' upon the earth that he must search the inner reality and find himself and God. Thus the Niche in the verse symbolizes his physical incarnation, his body or the temporal vehicle. But it is not an ordinary vessel. The Creator has blessed it by enshrining within it a lamp, within which shines eternally His Light. It is the presence of this Lamp in man and only those who are aware of its Divine Presence, or have had its glimpse, can be said to have lived their lives truly. The next symbol is the Lamp. The Lamp is the core of the spiritual truth, and which is the true source if illumination. Let us try to study this 'Lantern' which we all carry within ourselves. The Quranic symbols, which follow after the Lamp clearly show its structure, --the Glass, the Olive Tree, and the Olive Oil, the last being the real source of divine illumination. Thus the Lamp although far higher than the Niche is still at a lower level than the pure light itself. Thus with these five symbols, the life-energy as manifested within the human body becomes finer and subtler, that is, Niche is the body, the Lamp is the entire, whole, indivisible, indwelling spirit, sustaining, nourishing man, yet encased within the Glass with three significant meanings: (i) a transparent medium through which the light passes to illuminate the humanity and if it is in true harmony with the indwelling spirit can become the brilliant rising star of the human destiny; (ii) it is a protective shield against the lower and baser motives in man, and (iii) by failing to harmonize with the spirit, it may transmit a false image of the external world to the inner being. In a larger sense the glass truly and logically stands for the mind. Between the external world of the senses and the inner realm of reality, stands the mind. The Olive Tree is the source of the oil. I must admit that I found this symbol difficult to understand, and before we attempt its interpretation, we have to retrace out footsteps and attempt a brief recapitulation. According to our logical thinking, we represented the human body as the Niche, whose function is to transmit to the human mind through its five sensory mediums, the external world. The Lamp is the entire life-force or the living spirit, whose first layer is the Glass or the mind, which is subtler and finer than the body. Its function is to record the data conveyed to it by the senses and to create out of its power of imagination a realm of knowledge. This line of thought I believe should lead to the 'tree' as the heart, which 'manufactures' the oil, the essential fuel. In the physiological sense the heart is very much like the tree. From the psychological point of view, it is the discursive spirit, which on receiving the data of reasoning from the mind, combines them and creates pure reason. It is also a seat of human emotions and feelings. The heart like the tree is a creation of two worlds. The tree has its roots deep down into the dark earth, and its crown uplifted to meet the finer elements from the above. So also the heart has lower animal instincts and yet it inspires man to strive for the supreme pinnacles of life. How does it do this? By producing and generating the essential fuel to ignite and enkindle the light of divine illumination, the Olive Oil. The oil produces the most radiant illumination in man. This is of course in the symbolic sense of man being the lantern. This fuel represents a spirit higher than the mind and the heart, for in its composition there is no base element. It is so luminous, that it seems to be as if self-igniting, and bestows the transcendental prophetic spirit to man. I believe it to be immortal and continuous in its memory, knowledge and wisdom. But it awaits the ultimate spark from the Divinity, and until that spark ignites it, it remains dormant. At this stage our spiritual quest into the mysteries of this verse reaches its climax. This indwelling lantern, having the fuel and the glass and placed in a niche, shall only be ignited by the grace of God--this is clearly manifested in the words: Light upon Light; God guides to His Light whom He pleases. And when God's infinite love descends upon his spirit, he is awakened and enlightened from the deep slumbers of all births and deaths. That moment is a moment of reawakening, when man sees himself as Himself. That moment is a moment of rebirths, for man is reborn a superman, a prophet. That is his true birth, the birth of an ever living spirit, the dawn of Cosmic Consciousness, in which his past, present, and future all become one. In that supreme moment man achieves his ultimate Destiny--the Spiritual Union with God. Ameen Subject: Re: reflections on the Name Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:19:46 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Theurgus , proclus@mac.com, 106615.1176@compuserve.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia@nmol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com CC: younbarb@isu.edu, kens@cyrix.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com, Angha007@aol.com I rather thought that the penalties were related to sacrifice... e.g., note the dividing of the offering in twain and walking between the pieces as a part of the Abrahamic covenant. Joe Swick BTW, your comments on the relation of sound to penalties has got me thinking about the Word in Scottish Rite Masonry... Hmmmmmm. JSW -----Original Message----- From: Theurgus To: Theurgus@aol.com proclus@mac.com 106615.1176@compuserve.com ?.1176@compuserve.com> MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com kathleen@enol.com trent@goodnet.com jswick@cris.com ArtdeHoyos@aol.com rds@acsu.buffalo.edu ariel144@hotmail.com rpcman@hotmail.com gaia@nmol.com onandagus@webtv.net Neoptolmus@aol.com dcombe@rain.org 74277.3365@compuserve.com ?.3365@compuserve.com> Cc: younbarb@isu.edu kens@cyrix.com Sefirot1@aol.com CYeshua@aol.com Angha007@aol.com Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 1:37 PM Subject: reflections on the Name >Hail Mutants! > >I've been pondering the Tetragrammaton lately, and >wanted to share some thoughts for your consideration. > >We know from the cuniforn tablets that the oldest form >of the Name was Yahu, apparently a compound of the >word HAYAH (coming-into-existance) and HU (literally >"he/she", a feminine form of "he"). > >We know from the Greco-Egyptian Magical Papyri that >the sorcerers of Alexandria invoked the God of the Israelites >by the name IAO. Considering that Origen claimed that the >Name was four vowels instead of four consonants, this may >be close to the truth. > >I had a dream last night in which I was in place of terrible danger, >and I called out "eee aaah oooh huuu" twice and then "eee aaah oooh >huuu shua" twice, and the dream ended with deliverance from the evil. > >Then today it dawned on me that in the practices of Tantra it is >taught by some that the long eee vibrations stimulates the mid-brain >center, while the opened mouth aaah vibrations stimulate the throat >center, and the oooh sound the heart center and finally the uuuu sound >the abdominal center. > >Then I thought of the penalties given in the Temple Endowment. > >It makes me wonder. > >Ken > Subject: bundle6 Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:51:30 -0400 From: proclus To: Michael Love Subject: QUERY:Native Americans & Freemasonry (fwd) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:08:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos , bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, Dave , gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kens@cyrix.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, younbarb@isu.edu I am on a list that covers the history of religion in the US. I thought the post below might interest our little list. Dave Dave Combe dcombe@rain.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:44:20 -0400 From: Brenda Brasher Reply-To: H-Net American Religious History discussion group To: H-AMREL@h-net.msu.edu Subject: QUERY:Native Americans & Freemasonry From: Patrick Minges pm47@columbia.edu In pursuit of my dissertation on the Five Nations of the Southeastern United States, I am finding that many of the traditional leaders were also Freemasons. As I find this curious, I was wondering if anyone else has encountered this phenomenon or knows anything about it. I have put some of these on a web page: http://www.columbia.edu/~pm47/freemasons.html Thanks for your help. Patrick Minges Union Theological Seminary http://www.interport.net/~wovoka Subject: Re: QUERY:Native Americans & Freemasonry (fwd) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:40:00 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Dave , 74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos , bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, kathleen@enol.com, kens@cyrix.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, younbarb@isu.edu Yeah, those Lamanites always DID like a good secret combination! But seriously... this is an interesting site. JSW -----Original Message----- From: Dave To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com ?.3365@compuserve.com> ariel144@hotmail.com ArtdeHoyos bethany0@hotmail.com CYeshua@aol.com Dave gaia@nmol.com headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu jswick@cris.com kathleen@enol.com kens@cyrix.com MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com Neoptolmus@aol.com onandagus@webtv.net proclus@mac.com rds@acsu.buffalo.edu rpcman@hotmail.com Sefirot1@aol.com trent@goodnet.com younbarb@isu.edu Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 4:09 PM Subject: QUERY:Native Americans & Freemasonry (fwd) > >I am on a list that covers the history of religion in the US. I thought >the post below might interest our little list. > >Dave > >Dave Combe >dcombe@rain.org > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:44:20 -0400 >From: Brenda Brasher >Reply-To: H-Net American Religious History discussion group > >To: H-AMREL@h-net.msu.edu >Subject: QUERY:Native Americans & Freemasonry > >From: Patrick Minges >pm47@columbia.edu > >In pursuit of my dissertation on the Five >Nations of the Southeastern United States, >I am finding that many of the traditional >leaders were also Freemasons. As I find this >curious, I was wondering if anyone else has >encountered this phenomenon or knows >anything about it. > >I have put some of these on a web page: >http://www.columbia.edu/~pm47/freemasons.html > >Thanks for your help. >Patrick Minges >Union Theological Seminary >http://www.interp ort.net/~wovoka > > Subject: Re: [Moderator] (fwd) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:01:52 -0700 From: Reynolds Family To: Dave , 74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos , bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kens@cyrix.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, younbarb@isu.edu ---------- > From: Dave > To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com; ariel144@hotmail.com; ArtdeHoyos bethany0@hotmail.com; CYeshua@aol.com; Dave gaia@nmol.com; headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu; jswick@cris.com; kathleen@enol.com; kens@cyrix.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; Neoptolmus@aol.com; onandagus@webtv.net; proclus@mac.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; rpcman@hotmail.com; Sefirot1@aol.com; trent@goodnet.com; younbarb@isu.edu > Subject: [Moderator] (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 11:07 AM > > > Clark Goble's response to Tim's post. > > Dave > > Dave Combe > dcombe@rain.org > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:51:34 -0600 > From: Clark > Reply-To: lds-hist@mail.kingsleymc.com > To: lds-hist@mail.kingsleymc.com > Subject: [Moderator] > > Please feel free to discuss what you think would be appropriate > or inappropriate regarding the temple. I try and adjust my > moderating based upon the "will of the people" as much as > an ythin g else. I think Perry's questions are valuable in this > regard. > > Having said that I must confess that I am troubled by the > second excerpt Tim posted. That makes mention of the signs, > tokens and covenants we make in the temple. While I can > certainly appreciate the relevance of the document (and have > copies of both things he posted on my own system already), > such discussions would be offensive to many people. I personally > would also feel that it would violate my own ethics to discuss > those details in a public forum like this. > > Because of that I would ask that such details be send either > via private email or in a more edited form. > > /// Clark Goble //// Clark@mail.kingsleymc.com > // //// http://www.kingsleymc.com/Clark/main.html > > Experience, which destroys innocence, also leads one back > to it. > -- James Baldwin > > > > -- LDS History Mailing List ---------------------------------- > http://www.kingsleymc.com/Clark/Lists/lds-hist.htm > -- Please limit yourself to 3 posts per day ------------------ > To this response I give my whole hearted, AMEN!!! TRENT Subject: [Fwd: bundle5] Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:01:08 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love Subject: bundle5 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:58:37 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus Subject: notes from Sufi class Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 01:58:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Theurgus To: proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, gaia@nmol.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, dcombe@rain.org, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com For your possible intertest. Ken NOTES.DOC Name: NOTES.DOC Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: Publicized Endowment (fwd) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:48:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos , bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, Dave , gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kens@cyrix.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, younbarb@isu.edu The below, is I believe the past that Art posted to mutants, but asked us not to share elsewhere. The below appeared a couple of minutes ago on the new history list being run by Clark Goble. So, be warned. The document is now out on the net. Do you want to see any resulting discussion? Dave Dave Combe dcombe@rain.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:37:52 EDT From: Tim Rathbone Reply-To: lds-hist@mail.kingsleymc.com To: lds-hist@mail.kingsleymc.com Subject: Re: Publicized Endowment Perry, It has been reported in some circles recently that; a document has surfaced which purports to be a copy of the Adam-God lecture at the veil pre 1877-1894. This documetn does include the Oath of Vengeance. Presently the authenticity of the document is being pursued./verified. Tim A portion of the document reads as follows: He had been true and faith in all things and gained his resurretin and exaltation. He was crowned (in which was xxed out) with glory, immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods -- for such he became through his faithfulness. He had begotten all the spirits hat was to come to/this earth, and Eve, our common mother --who is the mothr of all living --bore our spirits in the celestial world. And when this earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael--who is Adam our common father--Adam and Eve had the privilege to continue the work of progression. They consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabrnacles for those spirits to dwell in, and when Adam and those who assisted him had completed this kingdom which is our earth, he came to it and slept and forgot all become like a (p#3) little child. It was said by Moses that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam, and that he took from his side a rib and formed a woman which he called Eve. Now this should be interpreted that the man Adam--like all other men--had the seed of creation within himself to propagate the species, but the woman did not. She conceived the seed but did not produce it, and consequently she was taken, as it were, from the side or ribs of her father. This explains the mystery of Mose's dark saying in regard to the creation of Eve from Adam's rib. You entered into a room representing the garden of Eden, where Elohim provided that Adam and Eve might eat freely of all the fruit of the garden. Except for the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He forbad them to partake of this fruit and said in the day they did so they should surely die. Now when Adam..." 141. Historical Department. Confidential Research Files, 1950--1974; CR/100/14/#2/Volume 8:16,17; Church Archives Vault. >From a xerox of the original letter. A copy of this letter may be found in: First Presidency. Letterpress Copybooks, 1877-1949. Jan. 1894--Nov. 1894; CR/1/20/# 23; Volume 28, pp. 633-634. Church Archives. August 31, 1894. Office of THE FIRST PRESIDENCY of the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST of LATTER DAY SAINTS P. O. Box B SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH. August 31, 1894. Elder Lorenzo Snow, Prest. Salt Lake Temple. Dear Brother:- As a result of the conference of the brethren engaged as ordinance workers in the several Temples, held at Salt Lake Temple, some time ago, the following slight corrections have been adopted by us, which you will please note: In the creation on the fifth day a grammatical error occurs. The word "their" is used instead of "its"; the word their, therefore, is changes [sic] to its. In the lecture the words "next room" are used in the Terrestrial room when that same room is referred to; the words "the next" therefore have been changed to "this", as the appropriate form. In the placing of the girdle, it should be placed on the outside of the apron strings. In the ceremonies at the veil, the practice has been to use the words, "this man Adam," while in the Logan Temple the words, "this man, representing Adam", are used. It was decided to drop the words, "this man representing," and say "Adam, &c." The word "christian," referred to in the lecture, in connection with name, is dropped and the word "given" is substituted. The words "and some have to go away on business," which occur at the end of the lecture, were expunged. The words, "new name," were substituted for the pronoun "it," to avoid ambiguity, where it reads in the lecture, "You must (p. 2) remember "it", that is, your new name. The people, when being put under covenant, should signify their assent by bowing and saying, "yes". It was left optional with the Temple President to use persons as witnesses who were receiving endowments or to use workers as such. The words "that my tongue be torn from its roots in my mouth," were substituted for "from the roof of my mouth." In giving the sign and token of the Aaronic priesthood that Salt Lake Temple use the word, "index", meaning the fore-finger. It was decided to use the words, "~fore finger," instead of "index finger," the latter being more easily understood. It has been the practice to mark the shirt, but we think this unnecessary as it is not strictly a part of the Temple clothing. The marking of the garment should be done in the washing room and not at the veil; and the greatest care should be taken to see that no person is permitted to leave that room wearing an unmarked garment. In the Salt Lake Temple the practice in the Garden is for the couple at the altar to remain kneeling while the covenant relating to the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood is being administered, while the practice in the other Temples is for the couple to arise. The reason given by the Salt Lake Temple for not arising is that the couple would have to descend three steps, and as a matter of convenience they were permitted to remain on their knees. It was decided that the couples should rise. Your Brethren, /s/ Wilford Woodruff /s/ Geo. Q. Cannon /s/ Jos. F. Smith _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] -- LDS History Mailing List ---------------------------------- http://www.kingsleymc.com/Clark/Lists/lds-hist.htm -- Please limit yourself to 3 posts per day ------------------ Subject: [Moderator] (fwd) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:07:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave To: 74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos , bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, Dave , gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kens@cyrix.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, younbarb@isu.edu Clark Goble's response to Tim's post. Dave Dave Combe dcombe@rain.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:51:34 -0600 From: Clark Reply-To: lds-hist@mail.kingsleymc.com To: lds-hist@mail.kingsleymc.com Subject: [Moderator] Please feel free to discuss what you think would be appropriate or inappropriate regarding the temple. I try and adjust my moderating based upon the "will of the people" as much as anything else. I think Perry's questions are valuable in this regard. Having said that I must confess that I am troubled by the second excerpt Tim posted. That makes mention of the signs, tokens and covenants we make in the temple. While I can certainly appreciate the relevance of the document (and have copies of both things he posted on my own system already), such discussions would be offensive to many people. I personally would also feel that it would violate my own ethics to discuss those details in a public forum like this. Because of that I would ask that such details be send either via private email or in a more edited form. /// Clark Goble //// Clark@mail.kingsleymc.com // //// http://www.kingsleymc.com/Clark/main.html Experience, which destroys innocence, also leads one back to it. -- James Baldwin -- LDS History Mailing List ---------------------------------- http://www.kingsleymc.com/Clark/Lists/lds-hist.htm -- Please limit yourself to 3 posts per day ------------------ Subject: Hellenism and other musings...... Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:40:13 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: 74277.3365@rain.org, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, m-kabbalah@makelist.com, younbarb@isu.edu CC: jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com Hail Mutants! I've been pondering the many internal contradictions in Mormonism's attitude towards "non-Israelite" or "Gentile" traditions, particularly Hellenism and the Later Neoplatonic sythesis. Mormonism has traditionaly taken an "objectivist" or "realist" position that the scriptures plainly describe actual historical events, and that the "miraculous" is simply the operation of natural, albeit unfamiliar, "scientific" principles. This "objectivist" view is very satisfying and electrifying to those who want religion to be real. This "objectivist" view was a rejection the namby-pamby "metaphorical" theology of the academic professional theologians. So in the rejection of the God of the Philosophers, there was a general rejection of the whole Hellenistic tradition as being utterly alien to the Biblical tradition. The problem is that this very "objectivist" view of Biblical narative needs the tradtional metaphysics of Hellenism, as finally stated in the Later Neoplatonic synthesis of people like Iamblichus and Proclus, to make it work. The very foundation of the Mormon tradition is the Masonic/Rosicrucian synthesis that grew out of the Islamic preservation of Hellenistic science. So we go round-and-round-again, alternately deploring and then embracing with joy, the esotericism of ancient Alexandria. This tension expresses itself in our political tradition as well, swinging between right-wing constitutionalist fundamentalism and "masonic" dreams of political theocracy. We have to sort all this stuff out and make sense of it. Ken Shaw Subject: Re: Hellenism and other musings...... Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:15:33 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 So Ken, What is the traffic like on that mormon kabbalah list? It sounds hugely interesting, but I haven't subscribed because I am so enjoying the jewishBOM list. Thanks for the X-posts though, and keep'em coming. ;-] proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [m-kabbalah] Clark, Proclus and Barbi Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:13:12 -0500 From: kens@cyrix.com (K en Shaw ) To: younbarb@isu.edu CC: proclus@mac.com ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From kens@eng.cyrix.com Thu Apr 30 22:51:52 1998 Mailing-List: contact m-kabbalah-help@makelist.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: list X-URL: http://makelist.com/listsaver/m-kabbalah/ X-Mailing-List: m-kabbalah@makelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list m-kabbalah@makelist.com From: kens@eng.cyrix.com (Ken Shaw) To: m-kabbalah@makelist.com Subject: [m-kabbalah] Clark, Proclus and Barbi X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 1359 X-Lines: 31 Howdy! It's time for me to lighten up. After all this time it's hard to beleive anyone is still arguing against Joseph Smith's "involvment" with Ritual Magic, specificaly the Renaisance High Magic, or Angel Magic of Barret's "The Magus". My imperfect understanding of Later Neoplatonism is that it IS materialism, but one which postulates gradations of matter that move in steps (quanta?) from the gross to the fine. My childish grasp of the Hellenistic metaphysic is that there is an unbroken "Chain of Being" that connects link by link from the Absolute One down to this world. In this view the universe is a living orgaism that "grows" out of the Absolute One like a tree growing out of a seed. All and Everything is nothing other than That One, there is only one Being that exists AT ALL. Everything is alive, everything is conscious, everything is a single being, everything is both material and "trancendant". It looks to me like Joseph's vision of generations of worlds in a living, growing unverse is pretty much this same vision. The politics is another discussion for another time. Ken ---- List Archive: http://www.findmail.com/listsaver/m-kabbalah/ To Subscribe: e-mail to m-kabbalah-subscribe@makelist.com To Unsubscribe: e-mail to m-kabbalah-unsubscribe@makelist.com -- Start Your Own Free Mailing List at http://www.MakeList.com ! ----- End Included Message ----- Subject: Re: bundle5 Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:43:08 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 , 2 Randall Shortridge wrote: > > stuff snipped out for brevity.... (It was the conversation on the early > veil lecture). > > I've read this early veil lecture before and I remember getting it off > the web. I would be real surprised if it is not there even now in > places that are independent from anyone on this group. Some site posted > a very early version of the endowment (pre 1940?). If I recall, it was > in there. > > Incidentally, I reread it and am again astounded at (Brighams) words > where he says "Now this should be interpreted that the man Adam--like > all other men--had the seed of creation within himself to propagate the > species, but the woman did not. She conceived the seed but did not > produce it, and consequently she was taken, as it were, from the side or > ribs of her father." > > Am I reading this wrong?... or is this statement really full of BS as it > appears? > > Randall/Eleazar I laffed when I read that. I think that we have to put this in the same column as other things that we have discussed. I'll state them in the negative. Adam's body was not of extraterrestrial origin. God does not hold the planets in their orbits. The creative seed does not reside only in the man. Science has repudiated the archaic and superstitious statements to the contrary. Remember, there has been a tendency to attribute to deity things which we cannot easily explain, especially when the causes are hidden. When we find out the true explanation, the mystery is solved. How do we find out the true explanation? Science, measurements, reason, rationality, revelation. There are still many things that we don't understand yet. Are we going to make up more silly myths, or are we going to get busy and do the work which is necessary to get the answers, the real answers. I believe that the later is the divine pathway. This means that you have pick and choose among mormon teachings. I think a good discussion would be on how to develop a criteria for this choice. Can faith survive this realization? I believe that it can. I think that there can only be more cognitive dissonance for us in the future. We need to address these questions in order to help people remain mormon in a world of rapid change. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: [Fwd: questions on sl temple] Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:43:59 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Michael Love Subject: Re: questions on sl temple Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:13:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave To: Randall Shortridge CC: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus On Fri, 1 May 1998, Randall Shortridge wrote: > Fellow mutants. I have a question/request that maybe you can help with. > > I am interested in getting pictures, etc., of the symbolism on the SL > temple. Star stones, moon stones, sun stones and saturn stones. I > cannot see anything in a large pict of the temple that is on the wall of > my bedroom. Randall, there is an article on this very subject in a copy of BYU Studies that I have at home. I'll send you the citation tonight when I get back home, if no one else does first. Some stuff deleted. > Perhaps there is more. Rooms above the celestial indicate that there > are kingdoms above the celestial. This is why there is a saturn stone > above the sun stone. Consider D&C 130:10... "Then the white stone > mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each > individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order > of kingdoms will be made known;" White stones are given to those who > are exalted in the celestial, right? So, what are these higher > kingdoms? A story: a friend of mine several years ago went on a walking tour of Nepal. We have talked on and off about religion; she is quite new age, but has a strong interest in Tantric. On her return, she excitedly came to see me and told me she had brought a little pngt. It was a small, oblong white stone. She told me that she happened to be in a village at the same time as some young teens were participating in their coming of age ceremonies. These are Buddists, not Christians. But, as part of the ceremony, each young male received 1) a new name and 2) a small white stone She, knowing that this would interest me, brought me one of the stones. It sits on top of my dresser at home in a small box. I consider this little stone one of my treasures. I need to call her and talk about this with her again. It's been awhile. Is anyone familiar with this symbolism outside of the Revelation/LDS temple traditions? I suppose I ought to be going through my Joseph Campbell / Golden Bough and similar things myself. But have any of you heard of this outside the Bible/LDS traditions? Any ideas? Dave Dave Combe dcombe@rain.org Subject: Re: bundle5 Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:26:42 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: Michael Love CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 stuff snipped out for brevity.... (It was the conversation on the early veil lecture). I've read this early veil lecture before and I remember getting it off the web. I would be real surprised if it is not there even now in places that are independent from anyone on this group. Some site posted a very early version of the endowment (pre 1940?). If I recall, it was in there. Incidentally, I reread it and am again astounded at (Brighams) words where he says "Now this should be interpreted that the man Adam--like all other men--had the seed of creation within himself to propagate the species, but the woman did not. She conceived the seed but did not produce it, and consequently she was taken, as it were, from the side or ribs of her father." Am I reading this wrong?... or is this statement really full of BS as it appears? Randall/Eleazar Subject: questions on sl temple Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:45:20 -0400 From: Randall Shortridge Organization: State University of New York To: Michael Love CC: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 Fellow mutants. I have a question/request that maybe you can help with. I am interested in getting pictures, etc., of the symbolism on the SL temple. Star stones, moon stones, sun stones and saturn stones. I cannot see anything in a large pict of the temple that is on the wall of my bedroom. I live far from SL so cannot go there and look. Are these motiffs clearly visible on the temple today?... or have they been obscured somehow so as not to be easily seen? Does anyone have some jpg's they can send me or some picts that I can borrow and scan into jpg files? Interesting that the church is much richer today, but building smaller and cheaper temples rather than the big ones that were built at great sacrifice to the early saints. Very little of the symbolism remains. In the SL temple, you move from room to room in the endowment. Each room is a few steps above the previous, symbolizing progression... line upon line, precept on precept. The celestial room is high above the ground (earth) level. Interesting that there are rooms above the celestial room in the SL temple. When I went on my mission, we were taken into the room at the top that has the circular windows. Interesting that it looks just like the room(s) in the Kirtland temple. Now, I think there is some symbolism to this. The Kirtland temple had a higher endowment (sacrament, washing of feet), but when the people did not live up to what the Lord asked, they were given a lower one. Interesting that the SL temple has the Kirtland temple on the top floor above the celestial room... the latter being the termination point for the current endowment. Perhaps there is more. Rooms above the celestial indicate that there are kingdoms above the celestial. This is why there is a saturn stone above the sun stone. Consider D&C 130:10... "Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;" White stones are given to those who are exalted in the celestial, right? So, what are these higher kingdoms? Randall/Eleazar Subject: Re: questions on sl temple Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:08:37 -0400 From: Michael Love To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus References: 1 , 2 Randall Shortridge wrote: > > Fellow mutants . I have a question/request that maybe you can help with. > > I am interested in getting pictures, etc., of the symbolism on the SL > temple. Star stones, moon stones, sun stones and saturn stones. I > cannot see anything in a large pict of the temple that is on the wall of > my bedroom. > > I live far from SL so cannot go there and look. Are these motiffs > clearly visible on the temple today?... or have they been obscured > somehow so as not to be easily seen? I proposed to my wife in the shadow of the SLC temple. From where we stood, near the wall and the old front door, you could most of the astrological symbols. They figured in my proposal ;-}. On this account we frequently revisited this spot, and did sessions. I'm sorry to say that we never took any pictures. I took special interest in this topic on account of an essay I read on my mission by one Percy Meyers. I plan to reproduce this essay on the web one of these days. Percy was in his 90's when I was in the mission field, so he is probably long gone. If there are pictures, I think that they should be reproduced on the website. This is certainly germaine. > Interesting that there are rooms above the celestial room in the SL > temple. When I went on my mission, we were taken into the room at the > top that has the circular windows. Interesting that it looks just like > the room(s) in the Kirtland temple. Now, I think there is some > symbolism to this. The Kirtland temple had a higher endowment > (sacrament, washing of feet), but when the people did not live up to > what the Lord asked, they were given a lower one. Interesting that the > SL temple has the Kirtland temple on the top floor above the celesti al > roo m... the latter being the termination point for the current > endowment. This is interesting. I always thought it quite the reverse. Isn't washing of the feet just a subset of the washing and anointing, clearly a lower ordinance than the other ordinances of the temple? I have taken the second anointing as the highest ordinance. If you want to tow the line, the sealing would be the highest "crowning" ordinance. As I remember, the sealing rooms are a few steps above the Celestial Room in the SLC temple. Clearly, there are important ordinances that we do not currently have in normative Mormonism. Here are a few possible reasons for this. 1. They have not yet been revealed. 2. They are only revealed on an individual basis. 3. We are not worthy of them. 4. We had them and lost them, because of unworthiness. 5. They were eclipsed as obsolete in light of newer, more powerful and more relevant ordinances.* 6. They are only revealed after earthlife. *Please take a moment to take #5 seriously. I personally think that this is an important possibility. I also am fairly well convinced, in light of our tarot discussions, that #2 is also going on. Many of us feel that we have been initiated into higher ordinances. It is presumptive to think that the work is finished with the temple rites as they currently stand. We have an eternity of progression ahead of us, like the circuitous calculations of astrology, in one eternal round. We are all still babes. > Perhaps there is more. Rooms above the celestial indicate that there > are kingdoms above the celestial. This is why there is a saturn stone > above the sun stone. Consider D&C 130:10... "Then the white stone > mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each > individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order > of kingdoms will be made known;" White stones are given to those who > are exalted in the celestial, right? So, what are these higher > kingdoms? This juxtaposition of the white stone with the saturn stone is brilliant, IMHO. I am reminded of KG Temple's parallels between saturn, the heavy stone, the star of initiation, and extraterrestrial communication (ie revelation). Open the temple in the next grade. I smell some incense, see a white light. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: biography Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:13:13 -0400 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus Just a reminder that you are all invited to contribute biographical material to the website. I'm again including Alex Wallis' excellent bio below, because I am planning to add it to the website. Has anyone heard back from Alex? It seems that he dropped this gem on our heads, then disappeared. I hope that he won't mind my posting it to the web. proclus Subject: mutant discussions Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 13:10:57 -0700 From: Alex Wallis To: mutants@iname.com I am English, former LDS missionary, now member of the Rosicrucian Order. The following may be of interest. Alexander Wallis 106615.1176@compuserve.com One My first placement as a missionary was Bridgend in South Wales, where I was placed for the first six months of my mission. I was there so long on account of my first companion and trainer Elder Stevens. Elder Stevens, although an unremarkable man in many ways, had an unrivalled influence over my thinking during this ?formative? period. >From my perspective he was the exalted teacher, selected to train me in his likeness. And Elder Stevens certainly did have a recurring message for me - that I should not seek for any reward but only the privilege of doing what is right. During my first days in the mission field, I had been determined that I would eventually climb up the mission ladder and hold the prestigious title of Assistant to the President. This attitude irked the rather more humble and selfless Stevens and he determined, through word and deed, to show me a better motivation. It is difficult to illustrate how profound and far reaching Stevens message and example was. But as this new morality grew within me, I saw my mission as a labour of love rather than something I had to do to get to the Celestial Kingdom or to exalt myself in some other way. By extension of this concept, I later became disenchanted with the Plan of Salvation and the whole Mormon emphasis of aiming to achieve Heaven, rather than serving God for the love of it. Ironically Elder Stevens fine advice eventually led me to leave the church. As part of my personal progress, Elder Stevens had recommended to the President that it would be good for me to baptise in my first area. So I was stuck there until that happened. This six months incidentally was long enough a residence for me to fall in love with a young married woman who was investigating the Church. I think she kept expecting something to happen between us and couldn?t understand why I was always accompanied by another young man when I visited her. I saw her as the romantic damsel in need of saving from her ignorant heathen husband. In my mind I dreamed of the consummation of our affections in one sublime act - her baptism. Ultimately we were both denied. On 9pm on my first Christmas Eve in the field, I was relaxing in my flat with my new German companion Elder Westermann. Westermann was a devoted missionary who believed that his parents would be converted if he served an honourable mission. Heartbreakingly he was later excommunicated for being a homosexual, a tendency I may have inadvertently encouraged by putting cold slices of ham under his blankets to frighten him when he went to bed. A knock at the door announced the unexpected visitation of our neighbour, whom we had never met, but whom we had sometimes heard shagging someone?s brains out (usually to the tune of ?Spirit of Radio? by Rush). The gentleman was about fifty years of age, plump, rugged and Irish. And a Catholic. He had not called on us to deliver a Christmas pngt, but to announce that he had ?lost contact with God?. Being the superheroes that we were, we responded to his alarm call and were invited into his flat which was adorned by glossy pictures of John Paul II. Of course we knew a universal cure to the spiritual ailments of mankind - the first discussion. So that dark December night we retold the story of Joseph Smith?s first vision and presented our beneficiary with a complimentary copy of the Book of Mormon. Our Catholic friend was overcome with emotion and wept during most of the presentation. Our preaching provided a cathartic opportunity for him to repent for all the rampant midnight fornication that had no doubt troubled his soul deeply. At the end of our polished and fervent presentation he made the astounding claim; ?I feel closer now to Joseph Smith than I do to Jesus Christ.? Well, obviously this statement was a little disturbing, but coming from a Catholic we had to notch it up as an outstanding result. I followed Elder Westermann back into our flat and saw my copy of ?Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith? laying face up on the bed. Looking at the painted portrait on the cover I suddenly had the strangest sensation of the presence of the prophet himself. It was uncanny, as if the picture itself was real. I doubted my senses until Elder Westermann interrupted my thoughts by saying; ?Something about the cover of your book just had a really strange impact on me.? We vainly speculated that maybe somewhere in the Spirit World, the prophet had decided to join two Elders on a missionary discussion for Christmas Eve. But was it right that Joseph Smith had produced so much more impact on our listener than Jesus Christ? There is no neat finish to this tale. The next day our neighbour woke up and continued being a Catholic and we continued to hunt for a convert to baptise. Like all the players in this story, it is a perfect paradox. An uneven slice of my memory. Two Hereford was life, summer. It was our town and we spent our days strolling around the park interrupting picnics to have theological discussions with hippy chicks. We carried clipboards adorned with dynamic pictures of ancient prophets who had rippling muscles, much like my companion who worked out for an hour every morning in our landlords gym. ?You teach me the scriptures and I?ll teach you to pump iron,? he proposed. And like two cops in a cheesy buddy-buddy movie, this arrangement worked out amicably for both. We gave out hundreds of copies of the Book of Mormon every week. We had taken literally President Benson?s call to ?flood the world? and were trying to drown Hereford in a tide of scripture. When we were not working the park we were teaching Debbie and Lynne, two ?tarts with a heart of gold? leading a pretty dismal life. Debbie had a little china pig for every man she?d slept with. We bought flowers for the girls to show them they were valued. More often we hung out with a ?less-active? family who loved the missionaries and seemed determined to keep us from doing any work for as long as possible. Their house was a kind of Twilight Zone where absolutely anything could happen. On reflection it?s hard to believe that over the course of our visits the Mother was kidnapped, one of the boys died and my companion met and began a passionate affair with a friend of the family - which led to his excommunication. Personally, I hated going there. Three In Tiverton, Devon I received my first of four assignments to train a new missionary. To be a trainer was considered the most prestigious role within the mission, and one which I was given more frequently than any other Elder in the England Bristol Mission. Elder Saunders was my trainee, a dedicated enthusiastic Brit who made a fine protťgť and was able to keep up with the exacting hours of door-knocking which I put in and also the numerous hours of Bible study. It was at this time that I determined to be able to win any debate on the scriptures and my Bible began to become littered with cross-referenced passages and inserts. Over the two years the book became increasingly decrepit through over-use and it?s ragged pages now sit proudly on my book shelf. Our prime investigator was a divorcee named Margaret and her young son. Margaret was so enamoured with us that she?d didn?t even bat an eyelid when we broke into her house so that we could video the Tyrone Power movie ?Brigham Young? while she was out. On my last night in Tiverton, Margaret admitted that her interest had been more romantic that spiritual. While others were absorbed by the facade of a true and living church, Margaret was the attracted by the equally ?too good to be true? illusion that we as missionaries projected. I could only tell her that missionaries seem to be perfect until you become one. Like the church itself, we were all well intentioned but only human. Four Bath was a pivotal point in my mission. I became a District Leader, responsible for the activities of a small group of missionaries. It was here that I became fully initiated into the light and dark sides of the mission. My Zone Leader and role model was Elder Wright, a charismatic Paki stani Elder whose enthusiasm and most of all boldness was contagious. His example sometimes inspired me to act like a self-appointed prophet and call people to repentance and make outrageous promises of destruction if they rejected my message. Great fun. It was now that I first began to feel the pressure enforced by the Mission President to produce a ?quota? of conversions. This was done by the offering of day trips as incentives for missionaries who performed. Causing the President some (mild at this stage) irritation, I declined to advertise these offers to my district. We didn?t want any ?prizes? for our service. We caused further offence by inadvertently qualifying for a day out with the President and not turning up for it. The quality of your companions would decide whether day to day life was Heaven or Hell. You did everything except take a bath with your companion. My first companion in Bath was Paul Holdaway, a very kind, unassuming genuine person. Everybody loved Paul like a brother. If someone in the street was rude to him I?d all but condemn them to Hell. Bath was full of culture and atmosphere, Paul and I would sit in a tiny cafe that overlooked the Cathedral and teach Colette the discussions. Colette was a sweet lady of artistic temperament who would copy out her prayerful questions for God and also the rather esoteric answers which He would give her. One afternoon Paul and I were visited one day by a suicidal investigator named Alex, who would sometimes slit his wrists open with the tab of a coke can. Alex had an unusually strange aura about him on that night and we blessed him and then knelt to pray together. While praying I felt increasingly uneasy. Suddenly I had the sensation of an invisible energy reaching through my body and grabbing my spirit and trying to pull me across the room towards where Alex was praying (not an experience I recommend). I jumped to my feet, as did Paul, but Alex did not move but just knelt shuddering as if seized by epilepsy. After some hesitation I held my arm to the square and felt an enormous rush of power flow through me, as if I could command the building to collapse and it would happen. I commanded evil spirits to depart, and after a few moments the tumultuous feelings were replaced by peace. Alex arose and said that he had been unable to breathe until he had heard my voice. Weeks later Paul was transferred and replaced by another American, Elder Barrows - possibly the most irritating person ever unleashed upon the world. Barrows would argue with me while we were teaching investigators, kick the shit out of trees while walking down the street and sit in the flat making noises like a video game. Many nights I lay in bed and contemplated putting a knife to his throat. Five Despite my determination not to support the Mission incentive schemes, I became a junior Zone Leader and was moved to Newquay for the summer. My companions were Senior Zone Leaders and I soon learned that generally speaking Zone Leaders were the most lazy and indolent missionaries conceivable. One notable exception was Elder Hall who was so extremely hardworking (and self righteous) that he thought I was lazy. Elders were not usually placed here during the hot months on account of the proliferation of bikini glad girls. What was of greater distraction to my companions and I was the ?Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles? game at the amusement arcade at which we became champions. However I did become quite smitten by a gorgeous young born-again Christian who would interrupt my street preaching to denounce me as the ant i-Christ. She had a quite incredible bum. Six My penultimate area was marked by my promotion to Senior Zone Leader, which meant I had the leverage to more easily encourage my typically lazy and incredibly short tempered Junior Zone Leader companion to do some work. One of the high-points of this difficult time was the New Age bookshop where I would browse through titles on other subjects which fascinated me such as Atlantis, Automatic Writing and the Essenes. We were also frequented by the Jehovah?s Witnesses who by now I was somewhat expert in confounding. My favourite investigator was a young, handsome Church of England Vicar who loved to debate the Bible as much as I did. We would meet and have a fantastic time arguing for several hours. Our verbal cut and thrust would be embellished with jibes such as ?I?ve got you on the ropes now? and ?now get out of that one?. Then his wife would bring up hot chocolate and biscuits. We prayed together and he explained that he felt the spirit as strongly about his faith as I did about mine. He was my friend and I knew he spoke the truth. At this stage things came to a head between myself and the mission hierarchy. I was still refusing to support the use of incentive schemes to encourage missionaries to baptise more people and in (my final) meeting of the 12 Zone Leaders and the Mission President, the issue was thrown open for discussion. I was surprised that only two other Elders supported me when I stated that this was an inappropriate way to serve God. I argued that the Biblical prophets were not motivated by a day trip to the zoo when they went out preaching. Elder Hall was among those who supported my view. However my role model Elder Wright kept silent - betraying his ambition to ascend the mission hierarchy first and foremost, and this by being a ?yes? man to the President. What was worse was the vehemence of some who defended the incentive program, and attacked me with such vicious words that I thought their world might crumble if they couldn?t go on a boat trip with the President. Perhaps the President would have relented if the Zone Leaders had been united in abolishing incentive schemes, but the tide was clearly going in the other direction. Finally he closed the argument by announcing that the scheme would continue and that we were in ?cloud kookoo land? if we thought missionaries could be encouraged any other way. I retorted that this remark was offensive to my own beliefs and those of some others present and that I wished my protest to go down on the record. After the meeting I asked to be released as a Zone Leader (not because of the debate but because I hated my uninspired and lazy companions) and requested to finish my mission training a new and highly motivated missionary. The President was happy to oblige. Seven My final, and best placement, was in Cardiff. Where four of us Elders shared a large flat above a service station. Elder Kerr was our District Leader, a very serious and humourless person who, in astonishment, asked me; ?have you always been this apostate?? when I was up 1 minute beyond our 9.30pm curfew. Kerr?s companion was Elder Troy Williams. Troy was creative, imaginative, anti-authoritarian and not particularity suited to the regimentation of modern missionary life. When I had been his Zone Leader we had not seen eye-to-eye. Things could not have been more different now, Troy was applying his creativity to his mission and I no longer represented (or cared for) the mission hierarchy. We began a friendship which would extend long after our missions. Troy and I contrived to produce a theatrical production which would consist of dramatised episodes from the Book of Mormon. I wrote the script ?Voices from the Dust? and Troy directed and produced the performance. Missionaries from all over the Zone became involved as did local Church members. At first I had thought the undertaking extremely ambitious but with Troy?s vision and resourcefulness ?Voices from the Dust? became a well polished and inspiring production. The many who attended were overwhelmed by the quality of our production, including the Mission President. Church leaders financed us to repeat the performance to another congregation and to produce the sequel, another Wallis and Williams theatrical entitled ?Traitors of Liberty?. For many who had become involved it proved the high point of their missions and was a time of great bonding between all participants. However, during this time at Cardiff, as the end of my mission drew near, I sensed that I would not remain a member of the Church long after my return. I discussed this with Elder Kerr who was concerned but seemed to understand. I had given myself wholeheartedly to my mission and I knew that the Church would ask too little from me on my return to satisfy my desire to serve God and live a spiritual life. Eight After joyous re-unions with family and friends, my first year at home caused me great difficulty. I was not part of the ?world? but neither could I be part of the Church which lacked substance for a true servant of God. My mission had not been about Mormonism but about my own relationship with God and inner spirit. If anything I had been at odds with the Church throughout my mission. It?s business like approach to things spiritual had been a stumbling block which had led many to have misplaced values. Now I carve my own spiritually through less charted territory. My spirit is my perfect guide, where no borrowed revelations and imperfect institutions can chart a course. -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Sufi teaching and Tarot Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:33:09 -0400 From: proclus To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any , Theurgus Ken, I've been soooo swamped that I did not get a chance to thank you for posting that excellent material from the Mystical Secretes of the Last Days. It really knocked my socks off, and your insightful comments as well ;-}. So thanx, if belatedly, for your prodigious contributions to the list. While I'm handing out the flowers, I also have to mention JSW, Gaia, and Bob for their excellent comments on the tarot, which were life-transforming for me. I really love you all, and am honoured to have you on this list. proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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