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Andy Gritz
==========
Andy

Wow, that horror story of yours really hits home.  It has 
so many instructive aspects.  I remember that letter to the
 editor.  The woman really bashed new agers, pagans, and 
goddess religion.  I think this is the clue as to what went 
awry.  She seems intolerant.  How interesting that such a 
person should become involved in some of the most powerful 
operations of Mormon Paganism, like illegal temple ceremonies.
  Would that she could have read some of our posts!  On the 
one hand these events show how powerfully transformative the 
operations are.  On the other, they illustrate the dangers for 
the ill-equipped and the unprepared.  I'm sure not ready, and I
 often hope that I never am.


I am reminded of the allegory of the Chapel Perilous.  She is 
among those individuals who stand in fear before the Chapel.  
They will tell you that it is an insectoid death demon dripping 
fetid green goo.  What a joke.  This person cries out against 
paganism, but chants in circles!  The Chapel is our continuing 
initiation.  It can empower us or cripple us.  This is why I told 
you that the Church is not ready for the unveiling of the company 
of heaven.  The Lord's anointed remain invisible for now, because 
those who beheld them would be destroyed by the vision of their 
gloriousness.  Before them it is the garden of Eden.  Behind them 
it is a desolate wasteland, but the time is not yet.


Think of our beloved Right Wing Crazy brethren, who are taking 
the fast track out of the Church, as premature mutants.  The 
boarders are dangerous, not for the faint of heart.  Ask Sonia.


fishing in a sea
of shredded triple combinations

proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:23 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/10  7:15 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: EXCOMMUNCATIONS

It is ridiculous to think that in the age of information and
Prodigy that there is anything that we can't talk about.  I
want to know how a group from the far right wing of the
Church got the idea of doing illicit temple rituals.  Now
THAT is fascinating.  The Manti story is very important and
needs to be discussed in detail.
                 dizzy             proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:24 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/11  7:42 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GREG STEWART   (FVKR02A)
SUBJECT: EXCOMMUNCATIONS

I agree.  I would like to know more about it.  In 1985 there
was a similar incident in Pocatello ID that I had to deal
with while I was living there and serving in the Bishopric.
 There were lots of excommunications.  I'm still curious as
to how people can do this.  What causes it??

                          Faithfully curious in WA   ggs


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:24 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/11 11:22 AM

TO:      GREG STEWART   (FVKR02A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: EXCOMMUNCATIONS

Greg

I think I heard about this Idaho incident.  Tell me, were
there also crazy right wing teachings AND illicit temple
rituals that time?

        dance           proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:26 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/11 11:23 AM

TO:      DALE ARMSTRONG   (MVJG33A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: EXCOMMUNCATIONS

Dale

In some kind of crazy way, I agree with you.  I can
certainly think of my own rationalization for having illicit
temple rituals.  My rationalizations, however, do NOT come
from the teachings of far right Mormons, like Bo Gritz.  I
need to know THEIR rationalization.  more than curious prcls


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:27 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/11  7:11 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    C MARSTON (JR)       (KXBN51A)
SUBJECT: EXCOMMUNCATIONS

Proclus,
   You don't have to go too far right to start running into
problems. Even on these boards I have read things from our
more "liberal" left wings that say, "Such and such was
practiced openly in the early days of the church....one
seems to get such a lift and added spirituality from it...I
can't see any reason why the Brothren would be against it
it now." Whether it be prayer, priesthood or polygamy, the
further one drifts from the center the more one is prone to
drifting into, as you termed it, "illicit" practices.
   It comes from the same root...the believe that a
particular member has special or more complete knowledge or
is more in tune than the leaders but it manifests in several
ways: the leaders are wrong because they differ with what
Joseph Smith said or did; the leaders are wrong because they
are saying something different than what Pres. Benson said
before he became President; or, and this is the most
incideous one, I can see nothing wrong with this.
   Now you know, as well as I, that there are things taught
or demonstrated in the temple that should remain there.
However, you get a group of people together who start
discussing some of these things in detail in a "study group"
and they may very easily go from discussion to demonstration
to incorporating some of the actual rites into their study.
There is, of course, "nothing wrong with this" because all
have been to the temple...except for the fact that these
practices are reserved for the temple.
   Then to have actually gained entrance to the temple after
hours, as has been alleged, so that they would have a
"better" setting for their discussions and practices removes
the onus of discussing them out of the temple...but still
does not authorize them to use the House of the Lord for
this purpose.
   I, like others, decline from talking specifically about
rumors I have heard because they are only rumors. I have no
facts to present. But they tend to treat subjects raised
late in a temple session...so rumor says. So I do believe
they are of a serious nature.
                                  Charlie
                                  Ogden, Ut 01/11/93 17:01


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:37 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       KXBN51A
SUBJECT:  EXCOMMUNCATIONS
DATE:     01/11/1993


Charlie

Thanx!  That's the best explanation I've heard so far, and I
downloaded your post.  Also, it makes me wonder.  What you
describe is a kind of experimental probing, in private
groups.  I am not one to speak of others unrighteousness,
but it seems that there must be other unrepented sins in
place already for this kind of illicit practice to occur.
That's what made this subject so difficult for me. I mean
these crazy right wingers seem pretty fanatical to me and
it's hard for me to imagine them sinning at all!   Beleive
it or not, this could almost make

                 proclus

                        a centrist!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:38 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/11  7:19 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GREG STEWART   (FVKR02A)
SUBJECT: EXCOMMUNCATIONS

The answer is yes and yes.  Although it didn't start out
that way.  It kind of evolved into unbelievable teachings
and "backyard" temple rituals.  It started out as a simple
discussion group held on a week night at the Gospel Doctrine
teacher's home.  Before it was over, the Elder's presidency
and members of the Bishopric, among others, had lost their
membership.  Sad thing.        ggs in WA


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/11/93        10:41 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/11  9:54 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    EUGENE SHEELY   (RGKJ61B)
SUBJECT: EXCOMMUNCATIONS

  From what I have read, there was a family in Manti which
was inviting members to their home and teaching them false
doctrines and portions of the temple cerimony.  This family
refused to stop inviting people to their home and holding
these "study sesions".  If anyone outside of this family was
excommunicated as part of this situation has not, to the
best of my knowledge, been made public.          >>>
  An article in the Salt Lake Tribune indicated that Bo
Gritz was leading a group of fanatics who had fallen in
disfavor with the church.  I believe it would be more
correct to say that a group of fanatics who fell in disfavor
with the church were supporting Bo Gritz.  I have not seen
any evidence that Bo was supporting these groups, nor heard
any claims that his membership is in jeperdy. Not that it is
any of my buissness if is membership is in jeperdy or not.

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