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Mormons Are Pagans 1
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:43 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/22  7:34 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Well, what do you think?  This seems to be the frank
discussion board. Shall we let it all hang out and tell the
world who we really "are"?

        you decide

                  proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:44 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/22  8:32 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus... Proclus....
     Interesting use of terms there I would say "we", you
are a pagan Mormon?  Andrew thought we should get together
out at Walden Pond one of these days, but I told him I was
worried about what kind of flowers you might smoke before
heading down that narrow Trapelo road.  Maybe we should meet
at my favorite fishing spot on the Sudbury River, best
mercury loaded fish around.  I caught about 20 fish there
one day back in July, mostly sunfish, with a couple catfish,
white pearch, and a small bass. (such is the life of the
unemployed).
   Well, have to see if Andrew joins the "we pagans".


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:44 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/23  8:07 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    PHILIP CHARLES   (MBXC58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

i wish you would! so many self centered, self directed. tell
me the black skin is the mark of cane. that water is to
be blessed instead of wine. condemming all who don't quit
see it your way. the only book  read is the book of mormon.
what happened to the Bible? what happened to Christianity?
you spend more time worshipping j. smith and the other false
prophits. sorry I can't buy it. God Bless You.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:44 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/23  6:10 PM

TO:      PHILIP CHARLES   (MBXC58A)
FROM:    LOWELL BARKER   (MJFR76A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Dear Philip:

While I agree for the most part with your note, I think
that your argument would be more convincing if your spelling
were better.  Cane, should be spelled Cain, and Prophits
should be spelled Prophets.   Education is a wonderful
thing!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:45 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/23  8:58 PM

TO:      MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Matthew

So...  Your a denizen of the western suburbs.  Right on!
Maybe we should have an Eastern Mormons Prodigy Party.  If
it's good enough for Zion it's good enough for Boston.

As for the terminology,  "Mormons are Pagans" is a typical
religious statement.  What do you suppose that we should
make of assertions like this?

         justice

                proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:45 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/23  8:58 PM

TO:      PHILIP CHARLES   (MBXC58A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Philip

Yea, and Mormons have horns.

                            demonic

                                  proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:45 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/23  8:58 PM

TO:      LOWELL BARKER   (MJFR76A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Tell me Lowell,  what part of that meaningless string of
otherwise false assertions do you AGREE with.

Michael Lowell Love

                   (proclus)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:46 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/23 10:26 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hello Proclus,
    I like the idea of an Eastern Mormon get together.  I
live in Rochester NY, too far for the Utah meeting last week
(sigh).   Kathleen McGuire suggested I write to you (we
share some interests- I am a molecular geneticist in
training)  Maybe we can get some Easterner Prodigy people
together someday here in Palmyra?!  As to the subject of
"Are Mormons Pagan?"  My answer is a qualified YES.
Yes we are Henotheistic.
Yes we believe in a eternal uncreated Universe.
Yes we believe the the spiritual nature of all matter and
living things.
Yes we believe in the possiblity of godhood for humans.
      If that is your definition of Pagan,  I would proclaim
          from the rooftops that I am pagan!!
        (But I don't worship tree spirits, perform
          sacrifices, or  call on any spirits but that of
            the Holy Ghost)             ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:46 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/24  8:12 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus,
   At  least the assertion "Mormons are Pagans" will serve
to differentiate us from those bloody Xtians.


                                  \/ Andrew,
                                  /\ not that kind of X


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:47 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/24  8:12 AM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Trey,
   Hey, wait a minute dude.  I never had you pegged for one
who would revel in the thought of Mormon Paganism.

   It is a pleasant surprise.  Welcome to the coven.
                                       \/ Andrew
                                       /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:47 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/24  8:12 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike,
   As one impetuous Mormon Male to another, I thought it was
"Mormons are Horny" not "Mormons have Horns."

                                       \/ St Andrew,
                                       /\ insatiable.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92        10:47 AM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/24  8:15 AM

TO:      MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus and Matt....or is it Jas....or Velcro Fly.....??
   Hey, dudes, I ain't hiding, I'm just getting my notes
bounced by the turds that run this excercise in idiocy.  It
seems that they did not approve of my accusing a certain
someone of having shaved his legs back in New Castle,
Delaware.  If only the truth were known.....
   And thanks for the e-mail Mike---even if you did call me
a sissy.   Harumph.   {love ya, bro!!!!!}

   But to the point!!!!!!  Yes indeed, __WE__ Mormons are
pagans of the worst stripe.  After all, who else would
beleive in a thoroughly anthropomorphic God?  Not to mention
the Goddess, HIS anthropomorphic wife.  And where there are
the two genders, there must surely be.......well, you know.

   Pagan enough for y'all??

   Lemme see....  Eternal progression.  Joseph Smith's
Jupiter Talisman.  Detailed astrology charts in the early
volumes of the Deseret News.  The finer points of the temple
ceremony being lifted from the Masonic rites.

   BTW, guys.  I am finding that there is a small but
significant number of Ceremonial Magicians along the Wasatch
Front.  The majority of them are ex-Mormon or active {but
cautious} Mormon.

   But if I know Proclus, there is some specific point he
would like to pursue.  I wait with bated breath to see what
it is.


  "Atoh Malkuth, ve Geburah, ve Gedulah le olahm.  Amen."

       ............or something like that.....

                                         \/ St Andrew
                                         /\ the dogmaphobe


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92         8:16 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/24  3:02 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Andrew,

     I'm just full of surprises!  That is the least of them
               ;-)

                            ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92         8:16 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/24  1:22 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

St. Andrew and Proclus...
  I was watching my usual dose of late night MTV last night
when I caught the video of this new group, "The Utah
Saints".  It was the strangest video, went along to a song
called "Something Good".  During one part of the video they
had this cannon type thing blowing smoke into the sky, I'm
sure there is an LDS connection here.  >>>>
  Maybe we she recruit the group for our New Age Tabernacle?
 Their music seems to be a cross between heavy metal/ new
age/ and mystery music.

   Proclus... My summer was spent in the land named for Abe,
just to the left of 128.  These days I haunt the north, the
town where 114 and 128 intersect.  My family has resided on
these streets for the last century so i thought i'd hang
with the roots for a while.  With the riots of LA having
been a pain, and the cold of Michigan's UP not all that
wonderful I think I'll just hang out for awhile.  >>
  Not quite sure how this radical new movement will go over
with the Mass. saints?  Should we announce a NA branch from
the Weston ward?


    Matt


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/24/92         8:23 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       KFVW57A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     10/24/1992



Trey

What a lovely post!  I do have a question though.  What do
you mean by Henotheistic.  It seems to me that I checked out
that theology, and it didn't seem to jive with Mormonism.
                                     >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have to warn you, though.  I seem to be a pagan by almost
any definition.  I don't worship tree spirits, but, they
seem to possess sentience and a high degree of intelligence
to me.  The only sacrifices I perform are the ones described
in the temple and by Crowley.  I don't call on any spirit,
except that of the moment.  "Unto the pure, all things are
pure." (Titus).  Have you ever been to Sedona?

Does this distinguish me from the Xtians.  You bet!

Does this distinguish me from the Mormons.  You decide!  >>>

By the way, maybe we should have a get together for Mormons
( and non-Mormon Prodigoids ) east of the great river.  The
REAL Zion!  Maybe we'll even let a few members come!  I
bounced it off my wife.  She thought it would be fun.
Speaking of wives, do you think that St. Andrew is going to
give Kathleen access to the Frank Discussion board?  She is
the B member, after all, and needs His Approval.  Did She
tell you that I'm in the graduate program of Biochemistry at
Brandeis?
                                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Welcome to the coven!

proclus


BTW Andy,  I know you're reading this.  I hope this
discussion will elaborate on each of the points that you and
Trey made.  Thanx for the wonderful examples of Mormonish
Paganism.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/25/92         6:15 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/25  1:47 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hi!
  First an answer,  my understanding of Henotheistic is
this:  one who accepts the existence of many Gods, but
worships only one.  By this definition there are a lot of
religions that would fit.  Shamanistic faiths and ancient
cults that believed in many Gods but only worshiped one, say
Isis or Apollo would fit this.  But also I beleive the LDS
theology would fit this.  I believe that LDS theology would
accept the existence of gods plural (we can become god,
Jesus is god, god's before God?, etc), but we only worship
one god, God the Father.  Henotheistic seems a better label
than polytheistic or monotheistic.

Biochemistry?!  I did not like those courses (maybe because
at this University they are geared towards Med students and
spend a month on liver disease and disgestive tract
chemistry and one half a lecture on nucleotide chemistry).
I love biology, genetics and evolution though. I guess I'd
best, since I study it.   I attend the University of
Rochester.  Did you know Brandeis is in the same conference?
Are you an graduate student?

I'm serious about an Eastern get together!  The East is
close to ZION (which is Virginia if you didn't already know)

So, Andrew are you going to allow Kathleen on the Frank
Discussion board? :-)
                                   ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/25/92         6:17 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/25  1:47 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

No I don't think it distinguishes you from Mormonism!  There
is the idea that all things, even the rocks of the Earth
have spirit and partake in intelligence.   Its a Mormon idea
that hasn't been talked about much.  As a biologist and an
evolutionist this belief only seems natural!  It does
distinguish you from Christianity (be thankful for that!).
Forgive my ignorance, who is Crowley?      ***Trey >>>>
PS  I just realized who Proclus was,   I LIKE IT!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/25/92         6:18 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/25  2:35 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hi Mike,
  Actually I have been here for several weeks but you just
haven't run across me yet.  It was hard to get access to the
bb because Andy didn't know about it and I kept forgetting
to tell him about it.  Of course, I had other things on my
mind.
  If you do decide to have a *P* party tell Julie that it is
a lot of work but worth it.  She might even start to like
*P*.
   BTW, the pictures will not be back for about a week, but
I am in the process of sending the photocopies so you can at
least see some of us.  We will send the pictures as soon as
they are finished.
   I guess I must also claim to be a pagan.  Tell me more
about those sacrifices from Crowley.  Andy doesn't always
explain to me what he reads.
                                   -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/25/92         6:20 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/25  2:35 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Oh yeah,
   I agree with you about the trees.  Something interesting.
All the people I have talked to that agree about trees (and
other living plants) having a sentience(sp?) have poor
vision.  Maybe the decrease in one of the senses causes an
increase in a yet unacknowledged sense  What do you think?
                                         -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/26/92         6:48 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/25  8:16 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    C MARSTON (JR)       (KXBN51A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus,
   Having visited with Andrew and Kathleen a few time I can
sincerely wonder, with a heart filled with goodness and a
tongue planted firmly in cheek, if the more appropriate
question may be if Kathleen is going to allow Andy to do any
posting on the Frank Discussion Boards.   Charlie
                                  Ogden, Ut 10/24/92 18:09


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/26/92         6:48 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/26  8:20 AM

TO:      KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS


     Hey!!!  Who let you in here???


                                         \/
                                         /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/26/92         6:48 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/26 10:07 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

So, you have read "Spiral Dance"?

I see you post notes to Lucinda


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/26/92         6:49 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/26 10:48 AM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Andy:
 Women have a way of getting where they want to go




bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/26/92         8:59 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       BXXF11A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     10/26/1992


***Trey

My first exposure to henotheism was in discordian
philosophy.  From this exposure I gained the impression that
a henotheist would accept as valid any god that anyone might
worship, a priori.  If such a God were in opposition to the
Discordians, it would be a part of the house of the rising
hodge (or is it podge?).  In other words, it would be a part
of the Discordian religion.  It might even be canonized!

This does not agree with the attribution of evil that many
Mormon leaders have given to the Xtian God.  Although the
Church now seems to be making overtures to traditional
Xtianity, we should not forget that in times past the Xtian
God was conceived as the Mormon Devil.  There exists a kind
of linear bi-polarity and exclusivity that doesn't seem to
be a part of henotheistic theologies.  Although Mormonism >>
recognizes many gods, it does not accept the gods of others.
 They are seen as fictions, devils, or bad conceptions of
the true God.

Does this mean Mormons are not pagans.  I think not.  There
are many examples of nominally pagan groups which are not
henotheistic.  The militant feminist covens spring to mind.

born again pagan

proclus
                              >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BTW  Crowley is the man who introduced "magick" as the
practical application of science to religion.  He wrote many
books.  Everyone must read them.  I recommend MAGICK IN
THEORY AND PRACTICE as a good place to start.  You may even
find it in the library, if it hasn't been ripped off!  The
sacrifices he recommends are only dissimilar to those of
Mormonism, but that may be another subject.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         4:49 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/27 12:01 PM

TO:      KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

-Kathleen

Hi!  In answer to your question, you must see the BTW in my
note to Trey.  If you are not satisfied, ask Andy, or better
yet send me some e-mail!  Our little coven seems to be
gaining, doesn't it?
                             >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These people with glasses, were they near or far sighted?
I'm near.

from one to another

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         4:50 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/27  3:59 PM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hey would being an evolutionist be classified as one of
those pagan elements within? That perhaps is a thought
distinguishing the real Mormons from the REAL Mormons?! Just
a thought. And yeah Andy...are you going to let Kathleen on
this board or are you going to act like a typical
"Patriarch" and keep her down and humble without true
knowledge of what goes on behind closed screens?  KAS (BWG)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         4:51 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/27  4:04 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus,
  They have all been nearsighted.  Maybe a twist on the
third eye?

                            -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         4:51 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/27 12:01 PM

TO:      BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Bonnie

Welcome to the coven.  Yes, I read SPIRAL DANCE.  It is
really one of the reasons that we are having this
discussion.  I can send you some info regarding the ancient
prayer circles, if you want.  It is pretty much of a working
definition around here.                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It seems that the founder of Mormonism reinstituted this
practice.  It is no longer practiced openly in the Church.
The most surprising observation is that the prayer circle
group is, in practice, very much like a modern witch coven.

goddess rubs you, she really paws

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         4:52 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/27  4:05 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus..
  My friend, from what I've heard (read) another local group
that it might be nice for us to pick on is the Shakers.  Of
course last month the last Shaker died.  Maybe we could
re-found the church.  I always did like their craftsmanship,
and of course they are well known for their good works....
       Matt Sweet Water (New Age Shaker ??)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         4:52 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/27  4:02 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus you devil...er...uh...Pagan...yeah that's it!
What on earth are ya trying to do
 stir up the old pagan brew?
 Why have you chosen this thought to expound?
 To try and see who we can hound?
 Which will you in the future prefer?
 To try and keep clean, or stir up dirt?
Well...hey it was sorta poetic right? So how have you pagans
(er we...yeah...WE) Pagans been lately? I think the last I
heard of ya was on this Christian Prayer Circle thing when I
was expounding to Trey. It ought to be interesting to see
what we post here.



                       Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         9:27 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     10/27/1992


-Kathleen

I remember distinctly what I, as an undiagnosed near-sighted
boy thought of trees.  They were big fluffy green amorphous
balls.  In other words, I saw them as wholes.  I didn't see
any detail, but I knew it was there.  I had seen plenty of
leaves, up close.  I liked to climb trees, so I knew about
the branches.  But, when I looked at a tree, I didn't see
any of that.  I saw ONE BIG THING, a giant green blob.
Maybe this is why I sense an imposing PRESENCE whenever I am
around trees now.  Does this make me a druid?

RNADNA

proclus

ps  I feel just about the same about mountains.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/27/92         9:31 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       CWXH30A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     10/27/1992


Kerry

Yea, its good this cat has nine lives, 'cause I got nine
different ways to skinit.

spinning bugs on their backs
                                 proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/28/92         5:47 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/28 12:12 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus,
  I know EXACTLY what you mean by ONE BIG THING.  My mom
told me that after I got glasses I finally figured out what
those brown lines were coming up from the ground.  They were
telephone poles!  If I take my glasses off, I see lumps of
color with no obvious edge or limit to them.  I notice a
larger 'presence' in living things, although inanimate
objects also have an aura.  At night I 'see' better without
my glasses than I do with.  If I leave my glasses off I will
NEVER walk into things, but with them on, I do.  I am one of
those people who can walk across a messy room while reading
a book, and never step on anything or trip.  I think I 'see'
better without my eyes than I do with them.
  Have you ever run across this phenomena in any of your
classes?  It has always fascinated me and because of
discussions with Andy as well as the bb, I think it can be
tied into some of the Wiccan beliefs.
                                       -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/28/92         5:49 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/28 10:36 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus:
  Have you studied about Gaia?  She is quite interesting.




bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/30/92         6:40 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/30  8:26 AM

TO:      KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Kathleen

I've never heard of anything in Biology that might explain
these observations.  I think that it is more in the realm of
cognitive psychology. I do have something by way of analogy.
It seems that electron microscopists can build sharper
reconstructed images of very small objects with the
microscope slightly out of focus. These reconstructed images
are built up by averaging many pictures into one composite
image.

archetype

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         10/30/92         6:40 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/30  8:26 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Bonnie

Yea, Gaia is my Life!  I really get off on high level
descriptions like Gaia.  I have had some experiences that
seemed very much like I was in touch with some local nature
goddess.  Ever been to Sedona?  I think Oak Creek Canyon is
an entity unto itself.

Mormons don't worship Gaia, however, they do have this
belief in the planet as a living entity.  While this
doctrine is often ignored, many of us take it very
seriously.

nymph

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:10 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/31  2:28 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus:
  Have you ever read Carlos Castaneda's "The Teachings of
Don Juan"?  Or have you ever read Jane Roberts books?  Back
in the late 70's before I joined the church, my math teacher
got me interested in this type of thinking.  It wasn't
called New Age then.  I believe that everything is symbolic.
btw, I am near-sighted too.  Try looking at the stars with
your glasses off - they are pretty.  When I was in grade
school and found talking to a tree, they took me to the
school psychologist.  Now they encourage children to use
their imaginations.  Amazing.





bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:13 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/31  7:09 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Ok folks, I'm going to admit something.   I was on a week
long backpacking trip in a Washington wilderness area alone.
 I stopped by a beautiful, serene scene replete with a
waterfall, stream, huge trees, ferns, birds and all the
sights and sounds one would expect.  Usually I revel in such
a sight, taking it in,  contemplating it,  thanking God
there are such places. I began to sing St. Francis of Assisi
hymn "All creatures of our God and King".   I can swear that
I felt every tree, rock and insect singing with me.  They
were more than just alive, they had spirit!  A wonderful,
spiritual experience!
I became a "pagan" that day.   A portion of  spirit in all
things?   Definately!  I go back to that place every year.
Boy am I a pagan!  Going on pilgrimages to natural spots
like that!

                             ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:17 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    10/31  7:40 AM

TO:      TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS



And they were surprised when they found me here!

                       Welcome,      ***TreyMormons Are Pagans 2
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:21 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01  8:14 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike,
   Do you think that Trey and Terri would be frightened off
if we explained the Wiccan "Fivefold Kiss" to them and told
them it was part if their initiation to the coven?

   And now that I have mentioned it, I guess I will have to
explain it.  I take this from the book SPIRAL DANCE, a
seminal work in modern paganism.
   "The initiate is brought back to the alter. The Priestess
kneels, and gives her the fivefold kiss, on the parts of the
body named, saying:
   "Blessed are your feet, that have brought you in these
       ways.
   "Blessed are your knees, that kneel at the sacred alter.
   "Blessed is your sex, without which we would not be.
   "Blessed are your breasts, formed in strength and beauty.
   "Blessed are you lips, which shall speak the sacred
       name."
   Think about it a while.  Within its framework, this part
of the Wiccan initiation ceremony has a vitality and
sacredness to it.  And it is, beyond doubt, Pagan.

   Now compare it to the washing and annointing in the LDS
temple ceremony.  Similar?  Thought provoking?  BTW, the
fivefold kiss takes place shortly after the initiate is
given a new name, which is to be kept secret.

   The statement "Mormons are Pagans" is more than       \/
just a flippant attention grabber....Thank Goddess.      /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:22 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01 12:13 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Andy:
   What page is that initation on in "Spiral Dance"?
I've looked, but did not find it.

It is interesting how many pagan beliefs get into our way of
living.  From where do you think they came from?
bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:23 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01 12:14 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hmmmmm,   the fivefold kiss.    I've been to the temple,
guess I've been initiated then, huh?!
Amazingly similar!  I guess Joseph wasn't kidding when he
said ALL would be restored.  Whereever the truth was and was
lost it is to be restored, even if it were "pagan".
            Not frightened yet, in fact intrigued.
                           ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:23 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01  1:17 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa:
 Hey, that's a good observation.  I think you are right.




bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:24 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01  4:30 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

proclus. I won't name any names, but it wasn't on this board
and it was mostly inactive LDS, and non-LDS who are
panicking. What this amounts to is them saying "See, we told
you you're not Christian!"
I think this is all great fun and facinating AND it helps
reinforce my concepts of an "original religion" that ALL
religions (including Pagan, buddist, Hindu, whatever are
decended from. I think this is why we see such common
threads in the philosophy of such outwardly drastic
religions.

Anyway, I have just had to listen to a long lecture from my
local priesthood authority (my husband) on why we
should not be talking like this.
1. It CAN give people the wrong idea.
2. We should be helping people see we are Christian (even
though it's NOT their type of Christian) for the same reason
we have dress codes, ect. or in other words, because we
have to be an example to the world and it isn't good to be
pushing, what is thought of today, as a Satanic group like
Paganism. Instead of calling ourselves Pagan, even jokingly,
we should be showing the world how what they term as
"Christian" is not what "Christian" started out to be. Also,
there is the danger that someone unknowledgable in what we
are talking about will read this and then later when someone
starts seriously saying that Mormonism in Satanic they will
agree because of what they read here.
OK, I'm finished. I was under moral obligation to deliver
that message so I've done my job. Now, we can all go back to
our pagan rituals again.

                                    Terri


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:26 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01  4:54 PM

TO:      ART RUGER   (KKSK81A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Thanks, Art! Nice to see you to. So what do YOU think of all
this?
I have heard of some "extremest" Christians who won't use
wedding rings, christmas trees, and a bunch of other stuff
because of the fact that they were originally pagan motifs
that became incorporated into Christianity. So if
incorporating pagan motifs is wrong, how about recognizing
that many pagan motifs started out "Christian" (I'm using
the term Christian just to mean "God's religion" both old
and new testiment.)
                                       Terri


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:26 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01  7:27 PM

TO:      BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Bonnie,

   The passage I quote is in Chapter 10: Initiation.  In the
10th anniversary edition, that would be page 176.

                                        \/ Andrew
                                        /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/01/92         9:27 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/01  8:22 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ART RUGER   (KKSK81A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Since ya'll came over to visit me I thought I'd mosey over
to see your hangout. Is there such a thing as a "reformed
druid?" I've been dodging pursuit at my place of employment
by what has to be a charter member of the Moral Majority and
one day, in self defence, when asked about what church I
belonged to, I blurted out that I was interested in starting
a Reformed Druid branch in town. She looked at me weird,
couldn't see my tongue bulging in my cheek, so I guess maybe
she knew something I didn't. Later on, she referred to
herself as a "Pre-Trib", which I now understand to mean one
who believes in something called Pre-Tribulation, which has
to do with times of tribulation before the Second Coming (I
guess). I was so unsure of myself at that moment, not
wanting to appear stupid about what a Pre-Trib was. I just
looked her in the eye and told her that personally I was a
Trekkie.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         0:30 AM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FVNM12A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/02/1992


Bonnie

I haven't read Castaneda or Roberts.  High Magick has been
more my speed.  These authors include, but are not limited
to Crowley, Wilson, Leary, Godwin, Regardie, and Hyatt.
Last summer Wiccadom caught my attention in a big way (trust
me, that's an understatement!), thanx to St. Andrew and some
great Ladies like Lucinda.  That's when we decided that
there "really are" some similarities between Witchcraft and
Mormonism that need to be addressed.

Honestly, I'd been searching for connections like these ever
since '85.  I even did an anthropology project on it.  I
really got toasted that time.  You see, it is actually quite
easy to demonstrate similarities between Mormonism and
Paganism.  That's been my modus operandi ever since I came
to Prodigy.  We can certainly do some more of that.  But no
one had been able to document connections between Mormonism
and the archetypal modern pagan tradition, Wicca (NOT
demonic!).

Finally, last summer it started to happen.  I read, the
Toscano's breakthrough book, STRANGERS IN PARADOX.  In
chapter 16, A Kingdom of Priestesses, they describe what the
prayer circle group was like at the time that Joseph
instituted the practice.  There is much that I could say
about this on another occasion.  Next on my stack was THE
SPIRAL DANCE.  It became immediately obvious that the
historical prayer circle group had many of the essential
qualities of the modern witch coven.  Many night's were
spent feverishly exchanging correspondence with St. Andrew.
We were unsure whether we were ready to bring it to light.
We dared suppose that we had found space for the Goddess in
Mormon ritual.  We were amazed that our view of the Church
had been transformed and that this transformation revolved
around the prayer circle.

Perhaps, we should not have been surprised.  Max Pulver has
observed that any inquiry into this topic juxtaposes us into
a "strange space, a strange world - unlike ours - a world
above that opens before us when we enter into the round
dance of the disciples, led by Jesus."  Sadly, the intimacy
of this kind of group work is no longer available to Church
Members.  The current practice is hardly a shadow of what
Joseph intended.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         0:31 AM


Still, I am not as forlorn as the Toscanos.  We are planting
the seeds.  Our very discussion evokes a dizzy ritual.  We
draw closer, reaching out in a virtual embrace.

the sacred dance            proclus          ps>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BTW

Yea, you haven't experienced the true beauty of a chandelier
until you've seen one with near-sighted eyes.  Sorry all you
two-eyed people.  I've tried to describe this on many
occasions, to no avail.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         0:34 AM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       RBWK95B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/02/1992


Terri

You have spoken of an "original religion" that ALL religions
are descended from.  Don't you suppose that this is a good
reason to respect other traditions for what they are?  I
have never heard a good reason for attacking another persons
beliefs.  Mormonism represents a wonderous and effective
tradition.  It has much appeal and can stand on its own.
Thus, it seems inappropriate to "be showing the world how
what they term as "Christian" is not what "Christian"
started out to be."

Any non-mormon who has the gall to assert that Mormons are
not Christians, is suspect de facto.  Why in the world would
we care what they think.  The Christianity of Mormons is so
obvious that it needs no defense.  On the other hand, the
truth is not always so obvious.  There are important
differences between Mormonism and what is known as Xtianity.
Let's try and get to the facts here, not worrying about the
ravings of the dogmatists.  We have presented much evidence
of paganistic practices within Mormonism.  Pagans are NOT
any more satanic than the current crop of so-called
Christians.  Why should we prefer one type of Satanism over
another?  I am not interested in labels.  Labels deceive.

OK, Now I'm finished.  I was under moral durress to deliver
that message so I've done it.  Now, we can all go back to
our pagan rituals again.
fun is free!

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         0:38 AM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/02/1992


Andy

I have to admit that I have never looked at the five-fold
kiss in quite that way.  What a revelation!  It reminds me
of Rhoda Chief's reflection in THE UNIVERSE NEXT DOOR that
all women who give fellatio are witches whether they know it
or not!                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

pngt of tongues

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         6:28 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/02  9:47 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus

I'm FASCINATED by your postings.  But what did you mean by
the cryptic note with the offensive signature.  BTW it
wasn't me who was offended - just puzzled.

What I was saying is that the attacks on WICCA seem >>
to come from the same mind set as the attacks on LDS.

My daughter was highly influenced by NA and has grown into a
responsible person.  I have trouble understanding these
fears.  Yet everyonce in a while comes a person with these
reposrts of terrible trauma experienced in the occult.  The
postings of WICCA both here and on CompuServe have appeared
so peaceful.

I liked the picture of you & Andrew & families.  You, also,
look quite harmless!   11/02 07:46 am *Granny Bobette*


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         6:30 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/02 11:27 AM

TO:      BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Granny Bobette,
  Proclus may look harmless, but it's your mind he plays
with.  If you were to spend a couple of days with him, you
would see the world in a whole new way.  Sitting in the room
when Andy and Mike get into one of their discussions is very
illuminating.  And the effects never end.  I want more.
                                         -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         6:37 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/02  6:05 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

So, you're positive that wasn't phallic art. Hmmm. Perhaps a
freudian slip?
  "They say the gods themselves are moved by pngts, and gold
does more with men than words."
  "My grief is gain when you cannot mock it."

Profoundly elusive, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         6:42 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       GKBD00B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/02/1992


Melissa

Where did that elusive quote come from.  It reads like
Homer.  There is no such thing as a Freudian slip.  No
dress, no horse, no mustache.
                          abysmally yours
                                        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         9:11 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       SJCT62A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/02/1992


Granny Bobette

I don't know what you are talking about. Which cryptic note?
Offensive signature?  I protest!  I'm perfectly innocent.
Just look at my sweet face!

Siriusly though,  I agree with you that Mormons and Witches
are often attacked by the same people, for the same reason.
If the truth were known, there are members who attack
witches and born agains for the same reason.  That reason
seems to be intolerance.  These attacks often have common
features.  "Witches are Evil."  "Mormons are Pagans."
"Joseph Smith was a fraud."  "Crowley was a devil."  If you
are unfortunate enough to be a Mormon or a witch, then there
is somone who thinks they know what you "are" better than
you know yourself.  They know "what is best for you".

If you successfully degrade another person's heretage, it is
a simple matter to get that person to do what you want them
to do.  It is a shame that people with the best intentions
use these techniques in the name of spreading the cause of
righteousness, or whatever.

We share a world of beautiful diversity.  Let's appreciate
it now.

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/02/92         9:13 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/02/1992


Kathleen

  Watch It Four Eyes!

procus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/03/92         9:08 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/03 11:32 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus,

                 Watch what?  (all innonence)


                                  -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/03/92         9:08 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/03  6:32 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus - You have the face of an angel... but for your
curiosity...
***************

         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    10/19  9:18 PM
TO:      BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMOM/US NEWS

Some walk about, looking for those who deserve the almighy

tongue lashing!

               cunning linguist

                               proclus

         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    10/20  7:36 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMOM/US NEWS

Proclus


Please run that by me again ---



 10/19 11:25 pm *Granny Bobette*


         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    10/24  8:05 AM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    BILL CRUPI   (NVVB23A)
SUBJECT: MORMOM/US NEWS
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/03/92         9:09 PM


I am still in shock at the "pun" sign off used by Michael

Love in the sign-off on his post to Bobette! I am surely not

Mormon, nor am I a Mormon supporter, but the use of the
crudism is not nearly consistent with the gentle and
courteous nature I have come to expect from Mormons, espec-
ially since the departure of the unlamented Stewart
Garland. I certainly hope that Bobette will overlook your
rudeness and forgive you your crude language.

******
Since I was too naive to be offended, there is nothing to
forgive...but I'm still curious!
                     11/03 12:54 pm *Granny Bobette*


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/03/92         9:11 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/03 11:32 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus:
  Ah, the chandelier.  You can see the colors of the rainbow
if you are nearsighted.  It is rather quite beautiful. True
colors. My favorite is the blue/violet, although I shift my
focus to get all of the colors.
  Have you done a study into the ancient Indian practices of
worship ?   Have you studied what symbolism is used and
compared it with other forms of worship?








bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/03/92         9:14 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FVNM12A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/03/1992


Bonnie

I am not all that familiar with Indian religious practices,
western or eastern.  Waht are you getting at?

curious
        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:04 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/03  9:11 PM

TO:      BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
      I have a lot to say about ancient Indian practice!!!!
Finally, something I can talk about with knowledge!!!
My paternal Grandmother is an Native American (Mattaponi
tribe of the Algonquins).  She has taught me alot, and I've
done a lot of reading and asking my relatives things.
So, someone ask me why I sign off with........***  Trey  >>

PS  Andrew, this might be another one of those little
surprises, maybe not.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:05 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  2:25 PM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

 Ok, Trey (or Horshack), why the arrow with the
feathers on the end?

             *** Trey  >>          Kinda looks that way.

With Sincere Inquisitiveness, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:06 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  3:10 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

No kidding? Now THAT is interesting how the prayer circle
revolves around the witches dancing and chants around the
cauldron (altar?). You guys never cease to amaze me. Hey
what happened to the two temples subject? Did I miss it?
Keep coming with the info. all sorts of bells went off in my
head! Proclus, from Mephistopheles, you're alright!
                             Mephisto


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:12 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  7:54 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa -

Thanks - I asked my son!

                     11/04 07:38 pm *Granny Bobette*


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:13 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  2:47 PM

TO:      BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Granny Bobbette;

  This is not fitting conversation for a granny. He's being
naughty. Very naughty. If you want to know, I'll tell you
though.

Melissa, prefering your naitivy


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:14 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  7:54 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa -

Thanks - I asked my son!

                     11/04 07:38 pm *Granny Bobette*


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:23 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       SJCT62A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/04/1992


Careful Ladies

Language is a multi-faceted pursuit which completely
transcends the artificial dichotomies of time, space and
gender.  It's meaning is encoded in those neurons that exist
between your ears.  I wrote that note in response to the
idea that there are people who are looking for someone to
punish, to spank grandly.  They must be out to get me!

All of this runs parallel to this thread.  These types  use
language to trick you into demonizing someone.  That is the
only immoral use of language that exists..............well,
almost.

               gold mine

                        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:27 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  3:21 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Fivefold kiss.....MOST, MOST INTERESTING..........How far
back though? Nibley mentions the 5 points of fellowship
through the veil back into ancient Egyptian times doesn't
he?

                      Kerry A. Shirts
P.S. Are the 5 points symbolic of the pentagram of magic?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:30 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       CWXH30A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/04/1992


Kerry

Not the Pentagram!  There is not much that I can say about
this.  I suggest that you take a long hard look at the
following three subjects; the modern cabalistic tree of
life, temple architecture, and the correspondense of these
with the human body.  with a twist        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:32 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  3:21 PM

TO:      TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hi Terry;
     Yeah and I wonder if those Christians realize that
clothes may have originally been pagan, so are they going to
take them off??? (BWG).


                          Mephistopheles


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:32 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/04  9:22 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Since you asked.........
      The three * signify the three lights.  My paternal
grandmother taught me some about her people's traditions and
beliefs (Native American, Mattaponi) when I was younger.
I've done some research since and found that she was
amazingly accurate (or was it that the research was?).
Anyway, there is a tradition in Algonquin tribes to carry
pouches of certain herbs, talismans etc to remind them of
certain covenants and truths.  I have one given to me by my
brother and sister-in-law when I was called up to Desert
Storm.     My great uncle gave me three fresh-water pearls
for it.   This is what he told me they mean.  They signify
the three lights of the heavens, the sun, the moon and the
stars.   Each of these lights reminds one of three strengths
a man needs.  The greatest light stands for the greatest
strength,  spiritual strength.  The next light of the moon
stands for mental strength, the next in importance.  The
last light, the light of the stars stands for physical
strength.   When I first heard of this, I was amazed at the
similarity between this and the three degrees of glory.  It
could be coincidence.   Interesting anyway.   So, not only
are we pagan but we're Native American spiritualists (or is
that pagan also?). In my studies of Algonquin traditions
I've found more such interesting parallels.  So anyway thats
why I put the three * before my name, I thought about it a
while and decided for me it was the best signoff (it has so
many other meanings, the godhead, my name means three, etc)
                              ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/04/92        10:40 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       KFVW57A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/04/1992


Trey

What you do in a ritual is not as important as the kinds of
things that you do.  If they are effective, then you have
found the pearl of great price.  It's almost a kind of
technology.        atwixt the pillars
                                     proclusMormons Are Pagans 3.1
======================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         8:35 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/05  1:44 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa - I'm not making myself clear.  I DO understand the
signoff - I DIDN'T understand the message!  Guess I'm a
little late as no one including me remembers what I wrote
that provoked it!

Thanks for your support!
 11/05 10:13 am *Granny Bobette*


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         8:37 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/05  1:41 PM

TO:      KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

But the question arises as to what came first - the chicken
or the egg, the pagan or the christian, the clothes or the
first snow storm...
Was what was originally pagan or originally Chistian? Didn't
God's religion (is it OK to call it Christian?) come BEFORE
pagan?
                                      Terri


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         8:38 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/05  4:10 PM

TO:      TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hmmm...interesting questions! I'll grapple a little and be
back.


                         Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         8:50 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       RBWK95B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/05/1992


Terri

I was refering to the internal arrangement of the building
and it's effects.  Any discussion of this subject requires
a grasp of each of the three subjects that I mentioned.
For example, I know of a certain temple in which the
chandeliers are precisely oriented like the sepheroth.  As
it might be evident to some, you cannot see this
correspondence unless you had studied modern cabala.

Furthermore, it cannot be fully discussed outside the
temple.  Such is the subject.  That's why I gave the topics
as pointers to those who are curious about this subject.
Besides,

I think we're all bozos on this bus!

                                    barney proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         8:52 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/05  1:27 PM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

A scientist _and_ a romantic? How delightful! Can I take a
few seconds to flatter you? Only it's really not flattery in
that I believe it all. I admire this balance you've managed
to strike for yourself. *P is just a glimpse into someone's
soul, but sometimes I wonder if it reveals more than what
eyes can sense. I think it must. And I also think if the
world was populated with more Treys, Treys in government,
Treys in business, Treys in education, Treys in art, and
Treys in bishoprics, the world could only benefit. You bring
an excellent presence to these discussions. Love, goodness,
intelligence, patience, tolerance. But the greatest? Hmmm.
I'd say love. Wouldn't Paul be thrilled? Wouldn't Steve be
in ecstasy to see Mormons alluding to Paul in a purely
positive light.

Frankly, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         9:18 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/05  4:10 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Sorry, I must disagree. Temple rituals are my favorite
subject and WHY you do IS the important thing more then what
you do. The greatest purpose of the temple is not the
rituals themselves, but the greater truth you learn BY doing
them. The actual physical act of doing them is in and of
itself almost meaningless. The temple and it's rituals are
purely symbolic. On the first level, we learn
and demonstrate obedience by doing the rituals, but if
that's all you have gained through temple participation,
then you have lost the most significant aspects of the
temple. Why else would the prophets claim that something new
can be learned EVERY time even they attend the temple. I
know of some people who know the temple ceremonies word for
word and think that is ALL there is too it. They can't see
beyond the rituals. Also, this is why it is OK to change the
rituals themselves as was done recently. This proves that
the rituals themselves are meaningless and shows the error
in those that put overt emphasis on rituals such as in
paganism. Paganism puts the emphasis on the physical
performance of the rituals and in claiming that some
sort of "power" or benefit can be derived from them instead
of the real goals of the rituals which is in teaching the
symbolic meanings through the rituals. I truely believe that
God initiated various rituals mearly as a teaching tool such
as the Mosiac law of Sacrafice. The ritual itself had NO
real meaning or power when performed except to teach about
the role of the Saviour and help people to comprehend the
sacrafice that he would me making for all people.
                                                    Terri


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         9:18 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       RBWK95B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/05/1992


Terri

I did not say the whys are not important.  They are
certainly a very important aspect of the experience.  I said
that the types of things you do are more important than the
details.  I notice that this point is not out of accord with
your statements.                 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't think anyone knows what the most important aspect of
temple worship "is".  It certainly eludes me.  Many leaders
resort to hyperbole.  "Such and such is the most important
component of thus and so."  These are wonderful examples of
religious statements.  After all, there can only be one most
important thing at a time.  You bring up one and I can
always think of a better one.  I interpret these things
allegorically.  For example, I think that the case can be
well made that the sealing ritual is the most important
aspect of temple worship.  Does that mean that you are
wrong?  No.  These are the little traps we lay for ourselves
when we resort to religious statements.  All of these things
have some importance, some more than others.

I am curious that you seem to deny the effects of the
ritual.  What do you make of recent statements by the
authorities that the sealing ritual has an effect on people
that are far removed from the ritual act.  It can literally
save your rebellious children on the other side of the veil.

white gold
          proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/05/92         9:20 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/05  4:20 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa,
   It be a very boring world if there were so many mes!
We'd never have anything to discuss on these boards since
everyone would agree with me (or themselves, whatever).
I kind of like a world with people like Melissa!  (Just call
us the MAS, Mutual Admiration Society).  Thanks for the
compliment,                  ***Trey         PS>>>
I think Steve would be shaking his head in disbelief that we
could say anything good about Paul!
Howabout this:   He was a great missionary.  I respect his
love of the Savior and his deep love for the Savior's
atonement.      Steve's not here so I guess I'll stop this
Paul fest.   I'm still awaiting his letter, I can't wait to
keep our discussions going by "snail mail".


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/06/92         8:33 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/05  9:09 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus - OK OK I think I understand.  BTW I told the
missionaries today about your circle of prayer.  They seemed
sorta confused.

                 11/05 08:41 pm *Granny Bobette*


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/06/92         8:34 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/06  8:47 AM

TO:      BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hi Granny,
    Just remind them of the temple.   They'll remember.  If
they still have questions let them write it on the board!
On second thought,  they might get more confused! :-)
I used to be a missionary in Korea and a ward missionary
leader in Baltimore (we had 12 missionaries in our ward!!).
They are great but young (I'm not much older I guess)***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/06/92         8:34 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/06 10:27 AM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Trey - These are REALLY young and naive.  The ones I had
last time (1983, I think) were more sophisticated.  The
leader was a BYU computer engineering student who had
already completed his calculus requirement - also a bright
one from New Zealand.  So many things I bring up they don't
know what I'm talking about - "love bombing," Paul in the
desert, I forget what else.  But they're sweet - especially
the leader.  He just got a new companion who gives the
impression that he is holding on for dear life - He's got
about six more weeks to go.  It is very obvious he's
had problems!  I think I'm more concerned about him than he
about me! Transfer date is about two weeks away and they
would SO like to baptize me. I am trying so hard, but the
more I pray the more discrepancies I notice.  I'd just love
to give them their brownie point.  Do you think we're in a
safe topic here?  I have a lot of trouble with the fundy
spiritual pride.
                 11/06 09:18 am *Granny Bobette*


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/06/92        10:14 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       SJCT62A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/06/1992


Granny Bobette

I am not surprised about those missionaries.  Not that many
years ago I would have been shocked and surprised that any
aspect of the temple service might be discussed in public.
The ritual hides, veiled with secrecy.  Members are
discouraged from discussing it.  This results in a lot of
ignorance.  You should have seen the reaction I got when I
first started suggesting the pagan connection on these
boards last year.

Mormonism represents a comprehensive worldview.  There is an
answer for almost any question.  Many members to go about
blithely relying solely on those doctrines which they are
spoon fed.  They deactivate their thought processes and live
in this shell.  The temple is the wild card in this game.
In order to maintain the sanctity of the ordinances, the
leaders don't discuss them.  We are only given very sketchy
ideas about why we ought to go to the temple.  For many, the
temple ritual is a vast uncharted ocean.  It can be
frightening to those who are used to having everything
explained to them.

The endowment is a pregnant woman.  She is giving birth to
something wild that is not of this earth.  These kind of
trans-human perspectives cannot be tolerated in an orderly,
business-like Church that is courting respectability in the
world.  Our Lady, like the maiden in the tower, is
quarantined in the sacred precinct.          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is one of the reasons that the leaders over-emphasize
the act of attending.  The ritual can thus be seen as a
knee-jerk act of obedience, divorced form its machinery and
effects.  Obviously, any real approach to the temple ideals
become impossible within this framework of Church
membership.

I remember my first trip to the temple.  It was an
overwhelming experience.  It has taken many many visits to
grasp the least part of it, and I am still aghast at my
ignorance.  Temple neophytes, like missionaries, cannot be
expected to have any real grasp of the ritual act or its
meaning.  I surely don't want to say anything against the
missionaries.  I really like them.  They make fine inspired
people and excellent dinner guests.  They baptize
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/06/92        10:15 PM

wonderfully!

atwixt the pillars

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:28 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/07  8:02 AM

TO:      BOBETTE PESTANA   (SJCT62A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hi Granny,  (may I call you that?)
    Don't do anything to give them a "brownie point"! Only
do what feels right in your heart.  (if you give them lots
of brownies though, I think they'll forgive you and thank me
for suggesting it!!;-)
    Don't worry about the "fundies" reading this topic. They
will probably sometime and make a big commotion about it
But the fact is, many (not all of course) have their minds
and hearts closed and will see what they are looking for no
matter what we do.   So "safe" or not,  lets talk on!


            Wishing I had a "Granny" on my mission to
              give me brownies! (I was in Korea,  they never
              heard of brownies!!!  Oh what we sacrifice for
              the faith !!!:-)
                                  ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:29 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/07  9:15 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike,
   Should we tell them about the five-pointed stars, two
horns exalted, that graced the exterior of the Nauvoo
temple?

   The exterior of the Nauvoo temple sported a number of
Pilasters (columns).  Each pilaster was supported by a
moonstone which showed a quarter moon, facing the ground.
Each pilaster was topped with a sunstone.  Above each
pilaster was a starstone.

   Obviously, the star, moon and sun refer to the telestial,
terrestial and celestial glories.  But........

   Why is the star placed highest when one would expect it
to be placed lowest?  Why did the glyphs on the moonstones
face down, toward mother earth?  Why were the stars two
horns exalted (upside-down)?
   If we Mormo-pagans ever organize, what will we call
ourselves?  The Moonstone Foundation?

   Moon >>>  Lunar  >>> Lunatic

   Yup, sounds about right.


                                 \/
                                 /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:30 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/08 12:44 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

We had a special course in my local institute discussing all
this - especially concerning the Salt Lake and other very
early temples. These are not things deemed only discussable
in the temple only and there is a reason the church flat out
denies to anybody who asks that the obvious symbolism on the
Salt Lake temple means anything. This was SEVERAL years ago
and so now I don't remember what all the symbolism means,
but the important thing is WHY that same symbolism is NOT
found in the later temples. To sum it all up, the symbolism
in not deemed important. It was important for it's time
period and for the whole reason we have temples, but way too
much emphasis is placed on it for what it is. As I said
before, the symbolism in the temple is for TEACHING
purposes only. When a symbol stops having the effect it was
meant to have (which is to teach something) then that symbol
becomes obsolete. Which is exactly what happened to that one
part of the endowment ceremony which was dropped this year.
What the symbol meant became distorted in this day and age
so it was dropped from the ceremony.

Historical symbolism in the temples is a facinating subject,
but over emphasis of it denies the real purpose of it. We do
not live in a stagnent world nor do we have stagnent
revelation. As our understanding changes, so has the temple
ceremony over time to better accomodate for this. We should
not dwell on outdated modes of rituals any more then we
should dwell on the historic changes that have occured in
the church.
BTW - because of other comments made her recently, we do YOU
suppose we have proxy rituals? Aren't we wasting an awful
lot of expense and time on people who may reject the
ceremony or never be worthy of it. ESPECIALLY concerning
that if we wait until the millenium, those who are deserving
and who want it could ask for it themselves thereby making
all our efforts now useless?

Oh, and anybody reading this, don't think I'm denying the
need for proxy ordances. I'm just trying to make a point.
Let's see if anybody figures out what I'm talking about.
HINT: this concerns who exactly is benefiting from temple
participation and WHY. Or why prophets would alude to the
idea that  what we do here and now in the temples have FAR
reaching implications.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:31 PM

                                          Terri


Oh, and BTW - the 5 points can also be found on top of the
Salt Lake temple.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:34 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/07  4:41 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike,
   As I recall, you were once one of those naive and
innocent missionaries that you mentioned in your note.

   Well, maybe not quite THAT naive.
                                          \/ St Andrew,
                                          /\ corrupted.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:34 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/08  8:11 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Brother Love..
   The Danver Historical Society has an exibit ot Witch
Trial era artifact running until Nov. 27, if your interested
call 508-777-1666.  There's some stuff that was owned by
Giles Cory (the guy who was crushed with stones) and other
accused witchs.  It's more of a historical exibit.
         Matt


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:35 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/07  9:12 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike,
   I made an observation recently regarding the use of
prayer circles.  During the recent CyberSaint 1992 Party, my
favorite xtian, Steve C, made sure that during all public
prayers that he participated in we formed a sort of circle
by holding hands.
   This is not a practice that the involved mormons were
totally comfortable with.  Yet Xtians regularly join hands
and form a circle of sorts when praying.

   Why is this so?  Are we afraid of each other?

   While it is a great thing to talk about the Wiccan
circle and the early christian and early Mormon prayer
circles, what about the here and now?
   Do we want to bring these facets back to our worship?  Do
we want to break down the psychic and spiritual barriers
that seperate us from our fellow man and our fellow saint?
   If so, then maybe this is a place to start.  I am told
that in some wards amd branchs it is common to join hands
when small groups join in prayer.  In other wards, the
people would rather die than become that close to each
other.
   The challenge is issued.  Next time the home teachers are
getting ready to boogie, blow their minds by forming a nice
pagan prayer circle.  Suggest joining hands in other
intimate situations, such as presidency meetings.  Do it
during family prayer.  Rattle a few cages.  \/ St Andrew,
                                            /\ iron pyrite.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:37 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/08  8:38 AM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

  Andrew and Mike.... The other day I was hanging out at my
Aunt's house in West Newbury MA and decided to spend a
little time exploring the prayer closet.  Now, my Aunt's
home was built around 1658 and has one prayer closet which
was part of an addition built around 1730.  I would guess
the home was built by a family associated with the pilgrims.
 The idea of the prayer closet seems to be to pray >>>
in isolation, not with the family.  It made me think a bit
about churches that seem to thrive on group participation in
prayer and religions which seem to put more emphasis on a
person praying alone.  How do you think the Mormon church
compares to other church in it's emphasis on public displays
of faith?   I think a case might be made either way.



                   Matt


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:37 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/08  4:01 PM

TO:      MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Matt,
   To me, the problem is not really one of Public Display of
Faith versus Private.  It is a subtle and pervasive attitude
against ANY display of faith that does not fall within the
narrow confines of "the norm."
   All public LDS prayers follow a pattern that make them
almost identical in form and content.  Pay special attention
to the opening and closing phrases.
   Sacrament meeting talks, Sunday School lessons, and even
Home Teaching messages also are subtely confined within the
bounds of "propriety."
   We have had our spiritual lives correlated and regulated
to within inches of destruction.  Worse still, we seem to
have driven out any practice that hints of spiritual
intimacy with any of our fellow saints.  How many bishops
are perfectly willing to counsel, preach, threaten and
cajole, but would rather eat cyanide than actually get down
on his knees and pray with a troubled ward mamber?  Gangs of
them.  How many church leaders rely on the General Handbook
of Instructions so heavily that they have precluded any
thought of calling on THE SOURCE for help in doing their
jobs?
   To many saints have withdrawn into shells of isolation
and insecurity.  Or we have been driven there by the fear of
violating propriety.  I see the prayer circle as one way of
breaking down the barriers and making the religion a
personal and exalting experience again.
                                           \/
                                           /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:38 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/08  6:39 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

St Andrew.. I hear what your saying, but how do you think
the Mormon church compares to others?  As a person who has
spent much time at both Mormon and Roman Catholic services I
would have to say that the Mormons allow for much for
flexibility then the Catholics.  A Catholic mass is so set
that i have a major problem staying awake for it.
   What you say though is true, I have a friend who has>>
been having some problems communicating with our Bishop and
as I read your note I felt like I was listening to one of my
friends' talks.  This guy was first counselor to the Bishop
till recently when the Bishop unexpectedly released him.
When my friend wanted to know what the reasons behind his
release was the Bishop was unable to sit down and discuss
the issue (you know how those Harvard Profs can be).
Needless to say my friend has been having some serious
problems dealing with the church lately. Even with me, who
has always been a bit on the fringe, there seems to be that
barrier to communication.  It's almost like some people >>
are afraid they will be hit by a lightning bolt if they say
what they're thinking.  Who knows maybe that why I feel
fried out all the time, too many lightning bolts hitting
down on me??

    Matt.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/08/92         7:39 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/07  9:17 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike,
   Regarding Rhoda Chief's observation: Really?  Sounds like
a good excuse to go on a witch hunt......

                                          \/
                                          /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/09/92         6:49 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/09/1992


Andy

As you know, Michael Quinn has documented the plummeting
significance of the prayer circle in Mormon ritual practice.
On May 3, 1978 Joseph's idea of the anointed quorum was
dealt a final death blow when the First Presidency announced
that all prayer circles except those conducted as part of
the endowment ceremony in the temples were to be immediately
discontinued.

I remember when this statement was first read.  I was an
inquisitive boy.  What in the world, I thought, are people
in the Church doing praying in circles.  How come I had
never seen it.  It sounded pretty peculiar to me.  I asked
the adults and was puzzled by the evasive answers that I
got.  It seems that it was something that went on in the
temple and they couldn't talk about it.
                                 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So why, I asked, are they doing this outside of the temple?
I thought these things were supposed to stay inside.  I was
told that some of the older members did it.  I was also told
that I had asked enough questions.

Years later, Julie and I started our own family.  When we
bless the food, we hold hands in a circle.  I have felt a
twinge of guilt on account of this, but we continue to do it
because I refuse to let the changing world of authoritarian
response infringe upon the intimacy of our family worship.
Interestingly, Julie doesn't seem to have a
problem with it.

veils

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/09/92        10:06 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/09  9:36 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike,
   This 1978 prohibition is news to me.  What do you think
the motivation was?
   To my feeble mind, the logic goes like this:  Prayer
circles are a higher form of prayer.  Therefore, they must
be more effective and spiritually enriching to the lives of
the participants.  The mission of the church is to bring
these blessings, in abundance, to all its members.  So the
use of prayer circles should be encouraged and increased.

   But instead, they cease the practice.  Why?  They
figured that we are too sinfull to endure it {pearls before
swine}?  Afraid that outsiders will use it as a way to
embarass us?

   It is a puzzle.
                                            \/
                                            /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/09/92        10:24 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/09/1992


Andy

Quinn gives the following as the reason for the decision.
"As the number of stakes in the LDS Church reached nearly
1000, the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of
the Twelve decided that it would be too difficult to comply
with all the requests for new prayer circles."  Now, it is
difficult to believe that this responsibility could not have
been delegated downward, like the sealing power was.  There
are numerous examples of this type of delegation in the
Church.

So, that justification doesn't wash, and we are left
wondering what the real reason was for the elimination of
this beautiful practice.  Perhaps it was too paganistic,
even for those paganistic Mormons!

Quinn gives ample documentation for the spiritual
manifestations that occured in connection with these
"annointed quorums".  The Toscanos concur and state that
many Mormons look back to those days as a kind of spiritual
renaissance and long for the restoration of the peculiar
blessings that are the province of the annointed quorum.

               Thou art it

                          proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:40 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/10/1992


Andy

Now, How would YOU know that!

      big wicked grin

                     proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:43 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       PMHR30A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/10/1992


Matt

Thanx for the info!  Julie and I may be planning a day trip
to Danver.

          un-Xtian burial
                         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:45 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/10  3:35 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Love Who is like God;
  I think you're on to something, brother.  I'm  beginning
this note before organizing my thoughts; so, you'll have to
forgive its "uncorrelated" quality. Somehow, I know that you
will.
  My grandma (in-law) works at the Jordan River Temple.
While I was staying with her in Salt Lake, she came to me
one morning quite vexed having been assigned to give a
devotional on the five points of fellowship through the
veil.  She is 74 years old and has never heard a thing about
it outside of the temple ceremony. Plus, since it is
eliminated from the ceremony, it seemed pointless to her.
So, I tell her about a talk I heard at a BYU stakeMormons Are Pagans 3.2
======================

conference. It was delivered by a Covey-disciple; so, it had
to be orthodox, right?
  The man used the five points of fellowship as a metaphor
for how we could make our families closer. (1) Mouth to ear-
saying "I love you" secretly to a family member increases
familial intimacy by assuring the one being told they're
loved of his/her importance to the whole unit.  (2) Hand to
shoulder-This existence is largely a physical one. Human
beings thrive on physical sensory input. It's true infants
and children die without it. Adults become depressed without
it. So, hand to shoulder (he said) could represent telling a
family member through touching that they're doing great or
that you're proud of them. (3) Breast to breast ???-I can't
remember for sure, but this one was about hugging and
carried the same message as 2. (4) Knee to knee-On the
ground/floor next to one another in prayer to our God. Of
course families are brought closer by praying together. [My
little girl is sick of this prayer stuff though; she wants
Jesus to come give her a hug and a visit. I wish He would].
(5) Foot to foot-was standing by family members. Putting
100% faith in their endeavors. Leading their parades.
Believing in them even when things are bleak and standing by
them to give all your help when they fall flat on their
faces.
  Isn't this a feast for thought? What if we extended this
beyong our families to saints in general?  What if mankind
adopted this as a code of behavior for all in the human
family? Yes, I am too idealistic, but this is an idea
"pregnant" with possibility!
  Now the down side of the story. My grandma was shocked I
had so much to say about this, something in three scores+ of
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:45 PM

existence she'd heard nothing about.  She told the temple
president's wife. Sister X (temp pres wife) invited me to
lunch to give her a full report. She wanted names and dates.
It is possible that the woman was delighted with the idea.
Maybe she'd never considered it. That's the thinking of
Melissa the credulous. Melissa the skeptic believes she's
working for her husband and they wish to lay words (if not
hands) on that certain Covey disciple.  Melissa the devilish
delights in the idea of a Covey disciple getting picked on
by authority, but he wasn't a C-d when he delivered that
stake conference talk. He was a disciple of truth, an
explorer of ideas, a disciple of Christ as he took his
metaphorical "talents" and invested them in the sheep who
were under his stewardship. I could never betray the only
show of magnificence, I'd ever seen him perform. I declined
my lunch invitation.

Ideally, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:46 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/10  3:44 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

But there's more Michael...I think you're right "many
members go about blithely relying solely on those doctrines
which they are spoon fed." And being spoon fed inevitably
"deactivates thought processes" But I don't blame authority
for this really (I'm not saying you do). I think they give
us what we want--not "we" Mikey & Missy, but we the
collective body of saints. Tell me what you think of this...
The Grand Inquisitor speaking to Christ (his prisoner, maybe
the church's prisoner) "Thou wouldst go into the world, and
art going with empty hands, with some promise of freedom
which men in their simplicity and their natural unruliness
cannot even understand, which they fear and dread--for
nothing has ever been more insupportable for a man and a
human society than freedom. But seest Thou these stones in
this parched and barren wilderness? Turn them into bread,
and mankind will run after Thee like a flock, grateful and
obedient, though forever trembling, lest Thou withdraw Thy
hand and deny them Thy bread. But Thou wouldst not deprive
man of freedom and didst reject the offer, thinking what is
that freedom worth, if obedience is bought with bread? Thou
didst reply that man lives not by bread alone. But dost Thou
know that for the sake of that earthly bread the spirit of
the earth will rise up against Thee and will strive with
Thee and overcome Thee and all will follow him, crying, 'Who
can compare with this beast? He has given us fire from
heaven!' Dost Thou know that the ages will pass, and
humanity will proclaim by the lips of their sages that there
is no crime...only hunger. Feed men and then ask them for
their virtue. They will write on their banners, which they
will raise against Thee, and with which they will destroy
Thy temple. Where Thy temple stood will rise a new building;
the terrible tower of Babel will be built again, and though
like the one of old, it will not be finished, yet Thou
mightest have prevented that new tower and have cut short
the sufferings of men for a 1000 years; for they will come
back to us after 1000 years of agony in their towr. They
will seek us (the church corrupted) again and find us and
cry, "Feed us, for those who have promised us fire from
heaven havent given it" And we alone shall feed them in Thy
name declaring falsely that it is in Thy name. OH, NEVER,
NEVER CAN THEY FEED THEMSELVES WITHOUT US! No science will
give them bread so long as they remain free. In the end they
will lay their freedom at our feet, and say to us, "Make us
your slaves, but feed us." They will understand themselves,
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:46 PM

at last, that freedom and bread enough for all are
inconceivable together, for never, never will they be able
to share between them! They will be convinced, too, that
they can never be free, for they are weak, vicious,
worthless and rebellious. Thou didst promise them the bread
of Heaven, but, I repeat again, can it compare with earthly
bread in the eyes of the weak, ever sinful and ignoble race
of man...We care for the weak...They are sinful and
rebellious, but in the end they too will become obedient.
They will marvel at us and look on us as gods, because we
ARE READY TO ENDURE THE FREEDOM WHICH THEY HAVE FOUND SO
DREADFUL and to rule over them--so awful it will seem to
them to be free. [the Brothers Karamazov]" There's so much
more, but I think we beg leaders to lighten our loads. I
think we despise thinking for ourselves esp. about things so
potent as the endowment. We plead to be commanded in all
things. We want to know every thing that is "official" and
use it to crush thoughts on the margin. Windily, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:50 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       GKBD00B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/10/1992


Wow Melissa!

Give me a couple of days to digest that.

       god who is like unto love

                                proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:51 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/10  4:35 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Dear Cousin;
  I remember ten years ago when I was learning the
discussions from the missionaries they came to my parents
home and proceeded to instruct me how to pray. I was a
devout Roman Catholic for 16 years. Who would know better
how to pray then someone who said a thousand "Our Father's."
But I didn't protest, wanting to know everything they had to
say. I learned that God only likes to hear Old English. 
And I learned THE format, "Father in Heaven (worshipful
adjectives may precede or follow calling His name)/ I thank
thee.../ I ask thee.../ in Jesus' name/ Amen." And there we
have our own modified and updated "vain repetitions." But
wait, this is a useful prayer formula. Some people really
don't know what to say in a public prayer, and children
surely gain by having this formula to rely on when they
can't think of what to say. Hopefully, a relationship with
Deity would naturally equip one with the power to utter
prayers that reflect the nature of whatever meeting or
gathering one is called to pray in. To adhere to the formula
rigidly, relegating by it the appropriateness and
inappropriateness of certain prayers strikes me as vulgar
though. Who understands us better than our God? Who is any
man to come between The Father and His child?
  I was helping an eight-year-old child pray in Primary a
couple of days ago. We'd just had a lesson on talents; so,
he and I had a heap a things to be thankful for taking the
whole Primary (15 kids) into account. Then came time for the
asking part of the prayer, and I fluidly inserted a couple
of thee's, thou's, and thy's. I felt him turn to me so I
opened my eyes. He said, "Say whuht?" I closed my eyes again
and we finished the prayer with Your's and You's. _That_ he
understood. Do you think God still listened to us? McGarius,
the eight-year-old, does, and that's good enough for me.

Yours, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:52 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/10  4:36 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

P.S. "Communication is only possible between equals." Do you
believe that's true?  Do you have a lofty definition for
"communication" and a liberal definition for "equals." I
suppose there is a measure of equalizing in this forum. All
of us (excepting toads) can only be represented through our
presentation of our ideas in words. No big noses, crooked
teeth, and zits to distract our audience. But it's usually
when I open my mouth or loose my fingers on the keyboard
that I feel unequal, awkward, and different. Social settings
are more equalizing for me as I just keep the mouth shut and
blend in (always listening though). Why I've even appeared
to someone as a "Molly Mormon" once.

Affectionately, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:53 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/09  7:22 PM

TO:      TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Terri

I find your post to be largely problematic.  For example,
"When a symbol stops having the effect it was meant to have
(which is to teach something) then that symbol becomes
obsolete."  This of course means that the content of our
rituals is subject to the caprice of the latest wave of
intellectual fad and popular understanding.  Symbols do more
than teach us things.  They shape our minds in ways that are
too subtle to describe.  They channel our thoughts.

"What the symbol meant became distorted in this day and age
so it was dropped from the ceremony."  When a symbol is
dropped from a ceremony, the information that it conveyed is
in danger of being lost, forever.  For this reason, the
symbols should be archived so that they can be discussed in
their essential historical context.  In this way, the ritual
can be changed without loss of informational content.
Unfortunately, the Church seems deficient in this respect
and we must resort to hostile sources like the Tanner's in
order to preserve our ritual tradition.  We should not drop
our hallowed symbols in the trash like so much shrink wrap.
Our fathers spent lifetimes trying to fathom them.

Of course, one of the reasons we regularly do temple work is
to benefit our growing understanding.  I think you
over-emphasis this angle, but don't you think that this
understanding can only benefit from viewing the larger
historical context?                 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Unorthodoxy

proclus

ps I proposed to my wife as we stood in temple square.  We
gazed at those pentagrams as I told her what they meant to
the Egyptians.  Later, when we returned to do a session, we
were chosen as altar couple, our one and only time.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92         7:55 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/10  5:26 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

That's exactly WHY the symbolism is being so underplayed!
The answers are SUPPOSED to be found in the scriptures
not in Egyption theology.
Also, yes the symbolism will change depending on our current
understanding. The temple is meant to teach US - Today. The
older symbols were meant to teach our ancestors. Our
ancestors were raised in a different world. 100 years ago,
a large percentage of them were illiterate, and even those
who could read didn't have the type of resources and
learning potential that we have. They were from a generation
that "had to see to believe". We are much more sophicated
then that and therefore, the emphasis on how things are
taught has changed.
Also, today, the church wants us to learn in a different way
then they did 100 years ago. NOTHING is being lost. We are
just being encouraged to find those things that used to be
taught through symbolism in a different way. The way now is
much less harsh and more subtle, but the message is the
same. We no longer need to get graphic demonstrations to get
the message across about the importance of keeping our
covenents therefore the symbolisms were starting to be
visualised as barbaric and meaningless, therefore the
symbols started meaning something that they weren't meant to
just by their presence in our rituals. Therefore, in order
to continue to place the emphasis where it originally
belonged, the outdated symbols had to go.
Nothing has been lost, and actually more has been gained by
this.
I do agree that the church should, for historical reasons,
archive it's outdated symbols because it is interesting, BUT
interesting is ALL that it is. Since we are to find the same
information that the symbols use to mean in other places
now, we have no real need to keep the symbols.

You also have the remember the the symbols were only meant
to aid in the temple rituals. They were never meant to be a
ritual in an of themselves. They are expendable. They are
not vitally necessary for anything.

                                                 Terri


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/10/92        10:16 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       RBWK95B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/10/1992


Terri

You say nothing is being lost.  Tell me, what is going to be
left of "the ritual" when we have disposed of all of our
symbols?  Also,  I am very interested in knowing where all
the information contained in these so-called expendable
symbols is duplicated in the scriptures or wherever.>>>>>>>>

less isn't more

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/11/92         6:00 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/11  1:22 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

You digest, and I'll offer some explanation. My main point
is that it is us surrendering our freedom, not them taking
it. Freedom is a pain in the a--. Thinking for oneself is
means work. It means coming to your own conclusions, not
adopting someone else's ideas. One of the reasons I think we
Mormons adore _Mormon Doctrine_ so much and rely on it so
heavily is because it lays it all out for us. Same with
Doctrines of Salvation and the work of Hugh Nibley. Smith,
McConkie, and Nibley do the work for us, and we just
regurgitate their point of view. They gives us the earthly
bread the Inquisitor speaks of.  The ideas in Mormonism, the
endowment, and the potentialities connected with further
revelation changing us are the heavenly bread. Our awareness
of the importance of freedom is Heavenly bread. But too
often we toss it aside.
  An example, a few years ago the Hale theater in Salt Lake
put on free plays on Sunday evenings. Sister Hale was
ridiculed as a Sabbath breaker. That is until President
Benson showed up one Sunday for a performance. Then it was
suddenly the chic Sabbath day activity. People chose to
persecute her using the dogmas they had latched on to. Few
utilised their freedom by exploring the possibility of the
goodness of what Sr. Hales was doing. But all those dogmas
were suddenly obsolete when Pres. Benson supported the
activity. People couldn't decide for themselves it was OK.
Same with voting. Same with oral sex. Members want to be
told. They want some one to take responsibility for their
freedom. But Mormons are not the only ones with this
problem. It seems to be inherent to the human condition.
 But when the patron saint of *P, Andrew, says, (the Gospel
or) Christ is the best kept secret in the Church. I have to
wonder if it's because we imprison Him in our labrynth of
institutionalized qualities just as the Inquisitor
imprisoned Christ.

Belief unbound, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/11/92         6:01 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/11  5:16 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa:
  I don't have _Mormon Doctrine_.  I gave my hard copy to
someone.  When I went to Instutute, I was encouraged to read
scriptures, and not commentaries or books to get my
knowledge.  I learned how to apply the scriptures to myself.
One time, I got lost in the symbolism, and put more meaning
into the book of Revelation. (I was trying to tie in the
7 days of creation with the seven seals in revelation.)
When I first joined the church, I had ideas that were
foreign to some members, and I had questions that could not
be answered. Well one question was where is the spirit world
at?  I view it as existing simultanously side by side to
ours instead of just somewhere...
  Perhaps we should put people out in the intellectual
desert by themselves without any books or other people to
influence them - could they survive this journey?  They
would have to learn to trust in the Lord.  I have walked
this path, and have learned to be close to Him, and I have
received revelation for myself.
    Hey, Melissa, I look forward to talking with you on the
phone.






bonnieMormons Are Pagans 4
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/12/92        11:41 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       GKBD00B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/12/1992


Melissa

I know people who can't face the masonic connections.  What
do you suppose they would think of this stuff?  The reason
is ignorance.  This ignorance results in and from
fence-building.  Do you know about fence building?  A sin
exists.  In order to avoid the sin, they build a wide fence
around it.

In our case, it is a sin to talk about certain things from
the temple.  The fence-builders come and say it is a sin to
talk about ANYTHING from the temple, even when you're in the
celestial room!  Terri claims that an important reason for
temple work is for us to learn things.  How can we learn
anything if we can't talk about it.  I suppose God could
beam it into our brains.

I loved all of your stories and think that they are very
relevant.  I have to admit that I would have been shocked by
your Covey disciple.  I remember that I was bothered at
first by the detail that I got about the ritual in my first
recommend interview.  Later though, I found the information
to be very helpful.

You know that tired old story about how it takes two nails
to hang a man from a cross.  It also takes a minimum of two
nails for a carpenter to secure a board.  If you use just
one, the board spins around.  That's great, if you want to
spin the board, but you can't build a house that way.

"We want to know every thing that is "official" and use it
to crush thoughts on the margin."  I found that statement to
be very frightening.  Your use of the first person was
particularly unsettling.  Good work!  Here's some scripture
for you.  "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he
make to understand doctrine?  them that are weaned from the
milk, and drawn from the breasts." (Is 28:9)  It seems that
God has something wonderful waiting for those who manage to
break the chains.  Does revelation change us?  I dug your
signoff.

read me doctor memory?

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/12/92        11:44 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/12  8:52 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

I look forward to the time the "rituals" will be deemed no
longer necessary at all. Eventually we will no longer have
temples because Heavenly Father and Christ will be our
temple (can't remember which scripture says that right now).

Check Revelations, Isaiah, D&C, & Pearl of Great Price. My
instatute director pointed out most of them, and I wish I
had written them down, but I do remember that they are all
there.

The most important symbolism to the spires is the size of
each, their position (direction NSEW), and their height.

                                              Terri


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/13/92         5:47 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/13  1:47 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Michael,
  You are lucky you got detail in your first temple
recommend interview.  I didn't get much detail even in my
temple prep. class.  It was more then two years before I
went back after my initial session at the temple.  If I had
been more prepared I wouldn't have been put off by it.  The
attitudes do seem to be changing though.  When I went with
my sister to receive her endowments last March, they told us
if we had any questions that we should come to the temple
presidency to have them answered.  At least we can get one
other person's view on the symbolisms and meanings.
  My mother surprised me about two weeks ago by agreeing
that there should be a more available forum to talk about
the temple.  She even asked me why women wear veils in the
temple.  (We weren't even in the temple!)
  So why can't they set aside one room in the temples where
people can go to have discussions (with a member of the
temple presidency present) about the temple ceremonies to
help people understand them better?  How much would we learn
from different points of view?  Maybe too much.



                                      -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/13/92         5:49 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/13  3:32 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Loud and clear, I think. But talk about major denial!! Every
Mormon owes it to his/herself to lay hold of a _Duncan's
Masonic Rituals_ manual.  We had one at this bookstore where
I worked. I'm sure public and univ. libraries would have
them. What an education! Our temple ceremony is a
Christianized masonic ceremony. Ours is vastly more
interesting, too. [Mozart was a mason. His opera, "Magic
Flute" is chocked full of symbolism that Mormons might
appreciate as well.]
  Our stake had a temple conference this past year. I
attended and heard with my own ears, the president of the
Atlanta Temple say that we could talk about anything in the
temple ceremony except the signs and tokens.  He said of
course we shouldn't be idiots about it. Of course we should
use discretion and good judgement remembering the sacred
nature of the ceremony. The only people in my stake that I'd
want to talk about the ceremony with were absent, even my
husband. They didn't hear it with their own ears; so, theyre
skeptical. Maybe I'll write this guy a letter and get it in
writing.
  When I was 18, I dated this JW once. He told me when I
went to the temple I was going to be stripped naked and man-
handled. Knowing my bishop and hometeacher as I did, we're
talkin' Prudes-par-excellence, I knew this guy had 2B full
of excrement. They would NEVER tolerate such behavior.  A
few months later, I was working as a receptionist in Salt
Lake City. I told one of the salemen I was close to what
this guy had told me. This saleman was ticked that this kind
of crap gets around. He was also a stake president in
Mountain Green, Utah. He proceeded to tell me what happens
during washing and annointings. I was nervous that he was
talking about temple stuff to me, "the unendowed." (no wise
cracks). I kept telling him that he didnt have to tell me
anything. He told me to shut-up (in a nice way) and listen.
So, I did. A few years later when I finally went to the
temple. It was such an incredible experience. It was very
spiritual. I might have been apprehensive or suspicious if
that stake pres. hadn't given me the scoop.
  As for the Covey disciple, you won't meet a stricter
Mormon. He said this before that you'd be surprised what you
could talk about if you take the opportunity to educate
yourself. Kind of double meaning to that, eh? But I'll
listen to my temple president, and discreetly discuss what I
want. The biggest thing I look forward to in future temple
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/13/92         5:49 PM

ceremonies is a black Adam and Eve. Those poofy blond eves
give me the giggles.

Evolvably, Melissa B. Firmage

P.S. Of course! Revelation changes us. We're very dynamic
creatures. Some change to slowly though.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/15/92         7:50 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/15/1992


Kathleen

There already is a room where you can talk about anything
you please.  It's called the celestial room.  Julie and I
have discussed a wide variety of topics there.  That's where
I first learned about the prominant role of Mother in Heaven
in the temple ceremony.  Besides, who needs the temple
president to be there!

Isis Unvieled

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/15/92         7:53 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       GKBD00B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/15/1992


Melissa

The Toscanos say in there book that we can talk about
anything in the temple ceremony except the signs and tokens.
Anyone who thinks carefully about the covenants will come to
this same conclusion.  I think we have sold ourselves short
and
knowledge has been decreased.  Nice to hear that some of
this is changing though.

quliphoth

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/15/92         7:55 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  3:20 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

I credit "temple fear" to simple "born in the churcher"
superstitionn. I know nobody in my ward will talk about ANY-
THING in the temple either. BUT I was told by two seperate
sources , 1. my instatute director who was an expert in
EVERYTHING being that he worked under 3 different prophets
in the church office building, and 2. the sister who taught
the class held in the temple for those about to take out
endowments, that it IS OK to talk about just about anything
in the temple EXCEPT for those things we are actually told
not to talk about. That means EVERYTHING else is fair game
as long as it is done respectfully - including all other
symbolism besides the few we have explained to us and told
not to "reveal".
I think that besides "superstition" that keeps people from
discussing the temple, ignorence is another factor. Most
people just don't think that deep or even care too. And a
lot of people don't agree on what the symbolism means
anyway. If we were told outright what everything means, then
we would have no reason to think deeper about it. I believe
the "official" stand of the church is that it is OK to
discuss the temple, but not "teach" what everything means.
Ofcourse this doesn't agree with the "superstitional"
culture of the church which teaches that it is NOT OK to
talk about the temple, but it's not uncommon that LDS
doctrine and LDS culture disagree anyway.

                                              TerriMormons Are Pagans 5
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/15/92         7:57 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  7:08 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

I hate to always do this, but perhaps I'm just too ignorant
in the subject, I dunno. Please talk it out with me if it
bothers you, however, I found Nibley's treatment of the
endowment much closer to Egyptian ritual ceremonies than any
others of this kind. His "Message of the Joseph Smith
Papyri" isn't talked about much and I have looked and looked
for people who have read it and want to talk about it. I at
a reserved level agree that the temple needs to be talked
about, but how do we go about it? I personally think it
might be fun, since I've just re-read "Message of the J.S.
Papyri" again (for the 10th or so time mind you) for you to
post the Masonic parallels and I'll post the Egyptian ones.
Maybe then we'd have some criteria for evaluation? I
honestly don't know what I want to accomplish with this type
of exercise, but surely some value can come from it. I mean,
if one digs hard enough, the temple ceremony is in virtually
every ancient culture including the Greek Elusinian
mysteries. Aspects, bits and pieces are scattered throughout
many cultures, even the indians which was whimsically
responded to by someone, but seriously, it's there also! Am
I out of line with this? Am I interrupting an established
discussion already which I've not kept up on? If I am let me
know. The topic is excellent in my opinion though. I have
Kenneth MacKenzie's "Royal Masonic Cyclopedia" from the
Aquarian Press, first published in 1877. Is it any good to
use? Thanks
                           Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/15/92         7:59 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  4:17 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus, have you studied on how the temple ceremony has
changed since the first temples? Weren't the Jews real upset
because the Christians deleted most of the temple rituals
because of the atonement. Even though the ceremonies became
changed, that was no reason not the do what was left.
Although we find no evidence (so the modern day Christians
claim) of the vail ceremony still being in existance, we
know that the "sea" was still being used from Paul's
comment after the atonement.
If people today have trouble handling the concept that one
little part of the ritual was changed, I wonder how people
handled having most of the ceremonies taken away totally
back then.
Well, actually we know what people's reaction was. We see it
now in modern day Christians who claim that the temple is no
longer necessary at all. People seem to have this ALL OR
NOTHING mentality. Either they want it all as they are used
to it, or they don't want it at all. People never have
accepted change very graciously.

                                        Terri


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/15/92         8:01 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  6:51 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

I just want to take a moment and say thanks to Andy and
Kathleen for putting us up for the night this last weekend.
I was in town doing research and they make wonderful hosts!
Thanks for the din-din Kathleen. Hey, don't forget that
picture of me either, like I forgot the $3! Ooops. Its on
the way. Thanks again for helping us. We'll have to do this
more often. It's fun.     Kerry A. Shirts


----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE                                                11/15/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CHRIS RIRIE (SKKH35A)
Subject: MORMONS ARE PAGANS
Sent on: 11/15 at 08:06 PM

Hi, I'm a new board reader and I stumbled across your message traffic.
I find your messages very interesting but I also find them.  I'm
concerned that what you are discussing, is discussing sacred things.
I don't mean to be a judge I just wonder  if you have considered the
fact that many not so friendly to the church are reading. Please
forgive me if what I say offends I just found your discussion to be
very much along the lines of "Frank Discussion"  Chris



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:33 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  7:52 PM

TO:      KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

I'll have to go look for the Masonic manual at the library,
first. Post away on Nibley.  I remember that the secret
signs of the masons are exact to ours, but given different
names. I've also noticed on the papayri in the Pearl of
Great Price that the characters are making "masonic"/mormon
gestures. Give me a couple of days.
                      Cryptically, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:33 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  8:04 PM

TO:      TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

You're right about culture and doctrine being unsychronized.
What blows my mind is the disparity between the metaphysics
and theology.

Soundly, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:34 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  8:24 PM

TO:      KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Kathleen

There already is a room where you can talk about anything
you please.  It's called the celestial room.  Julie and I
have discussed a wide variety of topics there.  That's where
I first learned about the prominant role of Mother in Heaven
in the temple ceremony.  Besides, who needs the temple
president to be there!

Isis Unvieled

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:34 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  8:24 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa

The Toscanos say in there book that we can talk about
anything in the temple ceremony except the signs and tokens.
Anyone who thinks carefully about the covenants will come to
this same conclusion.  I think we have sold ourselves short
and
knowledge has been decreased.  Nice to hear that some of
this is changing though.

quliphoth

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:35 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  8:24 PM

TO:      KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Kerry:
  I don't know if I have that reference that you have
referred to.   (I buy books, then don't know what I have. I
have been known to buy the same book twice...)    I have
_Temple and Cosmos_. It is my opinion, when Moses had his
vision - he had his temple experience then too. I can see
this throughout civilizations.  I had made mention of the
Indians. Their symbolism is interesting also.  It is an
earth-based type symbolism.
    Why are rituals so important. What are they symbolic of?
I think they provide different levels of understanding, such
as parables do.  My own personal symbol for expanded
knowledge is the sky, and looking upward.  I started
thinking and wandering why of things, and also started
learning the names of the constellations, and where they
were.  I started going to college to learn more formally
what I was learning on my own. I had not learned about the
LDS yet.                                           bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:36 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/15  9:08 PM

TO:      MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Melissa:
 Ah, metaphysics.  I went to an all day lecture on this very
subject at USC back in 1978 where I learned about right/left
brain thinking, and that there were phenomenon that occured
beyond our five senses that are just as real as the things
we perceive.  Probably that is why I love ST:NG.  Sci-Fi
becoming reality...                                  bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:37 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/16  1:51 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Michael,
  Actually we were discouraged from talking about this
kind of stuff in the Celestial Room.  They also emphasized
that a member of the temple presidency should be
included.  I can see wanting to have someone from the temple
presidency there to correct false impressions.  It is also a
bit difficult to carry on a conversation in the Celestial
Room with all the people moving around as sessions end.  At
the Provo temple they move people through quickly because
there are so many people waiting.  If you are there for more
than ten minutes they have a tendancy to make sure you know
where the door is.  Politely, of course.
  What is needed is a smallish room where people can go
specifically to ask questions in an informal setting without
the constant interruptions.  It would also have the
advantage of having someone to discuss these things with for
those of us who go without our spouse.  It is hard to carry
on an intelligent conversation with ourselves.  -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:49 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       CWXH30A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/16/1992


Kerry

Yes, Yes, Yes! to everything you said!  Greeks, Masons,
Egyptians,  they all have something to teach us about the
endowment.  You're not out of line at all.

I didn't read "Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri".
Instead, I read Nibley's ABRAHAM IN EGYPT.  The papyri
receive some treatment there.  Last spring I took a course
and found some ritual elements in the Homeric epics.  I know
Nibley was aware of these elements.  Then, over the summer
David Godwin came out with a book tracing some of the
origins of the western initiatory tradition in ancient Greek
culture.  Surprisingly, we can plant Mormonism in this same
tradition.  I was getting ready to dig deep into this when
the Wiccan parallels threw a powerful diversion on me.  Wow.
                                                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So let's hear it!  What do you have on the Egyptians.  They
are our spiritual grandfathers.

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/16/92         7:56 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       RBWK95B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/16/1992


Terri

I heard from some temple workers in Delaware that the
comparisons between the endowment and the Jewish temple
practices have been well worked out in writing somewhere.  I
have never been able to find it.  Do you know something
about this?                                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What is this thing about Paul and the sea that you
mentioned?  I have to confess that I'm completely in the
dark.

Yea, the ALL OR NOTHING mentality is something that we are
trying to combat here.  Nothing is all or nothing.  Change
is wonderful.  I love change.  I can make some wonderful
arguments why the 1990 endowment ceremony presented us with
some MAJOR improvements in the areas of ritual and content.
I just don't think we should ask people to forget the past.
                                                    >>>>>>>>
The earlier versions of the ceremony are part of our
heretage.  They are a part of us.  Let's try to remember the
promises that were made to the fathers.

whispering from the dust

proclus


----------------------------------------
WRITE A MESSAGE                 11/16/92
----------------------------------------
 SEND TO:  CHRIS RIRIE  (SKKH35A)
 SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Chris

I post things like this to get people to
think.  I have an immense amount of
personal interest in this particular
subject.  Thank you for your concern,
but I am hoping that the enemies of the
Church are reading this material.  One
in particular told me that she may one
day write a book based in part on my
postings.  The more people who are
studying it the better.         >>>>>>>>

post something

proclus



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/17/92         4:46 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/17  1:08 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Mike;
  I just began rereading Homer's _Odyssey_ Saturday. Before
I get too far into it, would you tell what rituals you were
talking about, or will it stare me in the face when I see
it?

Hellenistically, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/17/92         4:52 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/17/1992


Kathleen

Something about this story of yours has often troubled me. I
have always taken great comfort in the fact that there was
one place on earth where I could talk about ANY aspect of
the temple ceremony that I wanted.  That place was the
celestial room.  I have been to many different temples
across this nation.  It is my habit to pause in the
celestial room after the endowment ceremony, sometimes for
quite a while.  If there is a chair available, I sit down
and contemplate the immensity of the experience, the beauty
of the setting and my companions, and what it all means for
me in my life.  If there is not a chair, I walk about paying
particular attention to the architecture with its artful
intricacies.  The temple is a wonderful place, but it is a
mere reflection of something far more gorgeous. (Am I
ranting?)
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the setting for dialogue of a unique form.  Things
can be discussed in openness which are never seen in the
world.  I have never felt hurried or pressured by anyone
there.  It is the rarest of experiences.  I am afraid that
your experience might be unique to the Provo Temple, with
its high profile visitors and huge volume of patrons.

On the other hand, this explanation does not explain the
requirement for a member of the temple presidency to be
present during any discussions.  While I would welcome any
patron, worker, or member of the presidency to our circle,
making their presence a requirement smacks of oppression.
It is as if we needed someone to monitor us and make sure
that all of our utterances are correct.  Communication is
only possible between equals.  NO dialog is possible in a
coercive environment.  I find this requirement contrary to
the spirit of the endowment and therefore hard to believe.
Tell me.  Were you bluntly asked to leave?  Was the meaning
so clear that to do otherwise would have been an act of
disobedience?

MORMON{THOUGHT POLICE?                           proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/17/92        11:14 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/17  7:05 PM

TO:      BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Yessss.......Moses did have his temple experience on the
Mountain, the ancient temple of the primitives. The mountain
is the temple, hence the reason for temples anciently (and
some modernly) to be built in the mountain. Good point.

                       Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/17/92        11:15 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/17  7:22 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus, Mephistopheles here. Give me a couple days to get
the Egyptian material together. Oh I'm glad you haven't read
"The Message of the J.S. Papyri". It won't be redundant to
you! It'll be fun to talk this out. I sorta enjoy
parallelomania anyway. I want your info from the other
cultures also. This could get very interesting ya know. I
know Andy and Kathleen have lots of stuff as I was there
this last weekend, so it'll be interesting to see what gets
dredged up from all of us.
     I have to admit for the next month or so my time is
severly limited. You know....the end of the semester thing?
So, oh and I started a Dead Sea Scroll topic on the religion
board if your interested in that subject.
     OH!!! And one more thing here Proc......Andy tells me
you picked up "Proclus" from the book "The Sirius
Mystery"!!! Now that's serious...er Sirius, Mike. Andy has
it, I have it and have thoroughly enjoyed it 3 or 4 times,
and you have it, sooo.....looks like we gotta have a
discussion here. The myth of the Argos could tie in with the
temple as well eh? I am very interested in batting back and
forth the info in there. What do you think? Maybe a new
topic?
We could call it "Siriusly serious"!



                           Kerry A. Shirts
                           Seriously.........?.........!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/17/92        11:17 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/17  7:37 PM

TO:      TERESA TERRY   (RBWK95B)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

You know what the main reason was for people being upset
especially the Christians? 70 A.D. the temple was of course
razed (raised? Nah...leveled!) to the ground. Some stone
were up to 200 ton! Pretty big project there to say the
least. But when they got to the celestial room, they found
statues of the cherubim. They were in a sexual embrace!
Nude, having sex, and teaching the mysteries of eternal
marriage, progeny etc. Simply amazing. I give you Eugene
Seaich "Mormonism and the Ancient Texts". Truly an
interesting read on the early JEWISH temple ceremony.
Uh...by the way, this is the SAME temple that Jesus hung
around constantly, as well as went in obviously. Did he
teach this publically? No. BUT....great news! We now have
what he taught in the 40 day literature! No kidding. It of
course, was expelled from the Bible later on oh around
300-700 A.D. because the religion was too ceremonious and
ritualistic, complicated etc. Wasn't the Gospel supposed to
be simple? Welllll......O.K., but only on the public level.
the depth otherwise behind closed doors where real, true
instruction on the mysteries of God were taught, was very
complicated, involved, and staggering. These are the pearls
to keep from the swine.




                          Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/17/92        11:31 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       GKBD00B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/17/1992


Melissa

I can post the material on the Homeric ritual elements that
I have dug out on my own.  Relating it to the endowment
assumes a connection, not only between Mormonism and
Masonry, but between Mormonism and the whole western
esoteric tradition.  This is a large leap for some.  Many of
these groups preserve aspects of the ceremony that have been
removed from our current ritual.  Others have elements that
relate to the Abrahamic endowment that have never been part
of the modern form.

Still interested?

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/18/92        10:09 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/18 12:20 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Proclus,
  What they do is point out the door that you should use to
get back to the dressing rooms.  So it is not a blunt
request to leave but more a veiled hint that you have been
there long enough.
  I am sure it probably DOES have to do with the large
number of people attending this temple.  If everyone were to
stay in the Celestial Room for 30 minutes there would be no
room to walk much less sit.
  Yes, the Celestial room is perfect for contemplation and
learning.  In fact, an experience I had there about 2 years
ago is what keeps me going some days.  It is a wonderful
place to go for peace and comfort.
  The emphasis on having a member of the temple presidency
present during discussions of the ceremonies does smack of
oppression and I agree with you.  This is quite probably a
local tradition more than anything else.  There is that
tendency in Utah.   (All hail Eris!)        >>>>
  Do you think that more information should be available in
the temple prep. classes so that others do not suffer
overload the way that I did?  I think that if I had been
more prepared I would have understood more and enjoyed more.
By the time I had finished my first session I was worn out,
very upset, and agitated.  Because of the emphasis on not
talking about the ceremony it was several years before I
asked Andy to explain some things to me.  After that I felt
more prepared to return to the temple.

                                      -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/18/92        10:12 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/18  4:46 PM

TO:      KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Kathleen:
  If you were here in Dallas, you would have plenty of time
to be alone in the celestial room.  We don't have the crowd
that you do in Provo.  I have been on sessions where there
is only a few people.  That brings a different level of
meaning.  The temple I went through for my own endowments
was the LA temple.  I had friends there who asked me if I
had any questions, I could ask anything I wanted.  I wanted
to know where the other worlds that Heavenly Father
organized were at.  Of course, that is not what they meant.
The questions I have, no one can answer, such as that one.
I suppose I will just have to wait.





bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/18/92        10:12 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/18  6:29 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    MELISSA WUNDERLY   (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

proclus;

  Of course I'm still interested! Why wouldn't I be?


Emphatically, Melissa


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/18/92        11:51 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       CWXH30A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/18/1992


Kerry

I like the idea of a Siriusly serious topic, but I think we
should move it to the Mormon board and tie it into
initiatory systems and Kolob.  I don't think we've ever had
a subject expressly for this material.  Mormon Theology is
always more striking than you think it is.

"But when they got to the celestial room, they found statues
of the cherubim. They were in a sexual embrace!  Nude,
having sex, and teaching the mysteries of eternal marriage,
progeny etc."  It is possible that these statues are the
product of the degenerate and hellanized jewish religion,
circa 70 AD.  Just a thought.

Eugene Seaich sounds great!  Maybe this is the book I have
been looking for.  Unfortunately, I don't have access to the
BYU library.  Could we get some more detail about it?
Leviticus is such a chore!  Also, I'm afraid "40 day
literature" is kind of jargon.  Are you talking about the
gnostic scriptures?  I usually get as close to the source as
possible.  Give me some titles as examples if possible.  I
hope this isn't pestering!

thanx

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/19/92        10:01 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FKSP88B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/19/1992


-Kathleen

In a way I agree that we should have a better preparation
period for the endowment, but I do have some reservations.
First, how much preparation is too much.  We don't want to
spoil the experience or take away all of the mystery.
Second, there is the danger, in such an atmosphere, that all
of the symbolism would acquire an "official" interpretation.
Yech!  I actually quite enjoy the speculative free-form
interpretation that we engage in as part of the current
system.  Let's keep the correlation committee out of this!
I don't think the meaning of the endowment can come from
outside.

apixed the twillars

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/19/92        10:10 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       GKBD00B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/19/1992


Melissa

In book 19 of ODYSSEY you wil find the following passage;

"The two men, Odysseus and his glorious son, sprang up
and began carrying helmets, sheilds massive in the middle,
and pointed spears, and before them Pallas Athene, holding
a golden lamp, gave them splendid illumination.
Suddenly, Telemachos spoke a word to his father:
'Father, here is great wonder that my eyes look on.
Always it seems that the chamber walls, the handsome bases
and roof timbers of fit and tall columns sustaining them,
shine in my eyes as if a fire were blazing.  There must be
surely a god here, one of those who hold the high heaven.'

"Then resourceful Odysseus spoke in turn and answered him:
'Hush and keep this in your own mind, and do not ask
questions.
For this is the very way of the gods, who hold high Olympos.
You should go to bed, and I shall remain behind here,
so that I can continue to stir up the maids, and also
your mother; and she in sorrow will question me about
everything.'

"So he spoke, and Telemachos went out of the great hall
to his own chamber to go to bed, with torches to light him
to his bed, where he always lay when sweet sleep came on
him.  There he lay this time also and waited for the divine
Dawn."                   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Years ago, I began an intensive study of the rituals of the
western esoteric tradition.  When I read this passage, bells
rang in my head.  It contains the essence of the classic
neophyte ritual.  In Regardie's COMPLETE GOLDEN DAWN SYSTEM
OF MAGIC (vol VII, 80-81) we find that the candidate is
hoodwinked and led about the ritual chamber.  As he is led,
a lamp goes before him.  He cannot see it because he is
hoodwinked and there is a cloth shield that is held up in
front of him.  At the climax, the hoodwink is removed and
the officaitors recite;

"KHABS AM PEKHT.  KONX OM PAX.  Light In Extension." (3,3,3)

The neophyte is shown the lamp and informed that;

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/19/92        10:10 PM

"When the guiding hands led you in the dark circle of your
wanderings,  the Light of the Hidden Wisdom went before you,
symbolised by the Lamp of Kerux.  Know and remember
henceforth that this wisdom, which begins in the fear of the
Lord ends at his Palace and the centre."
                         >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
atwixt the pillars

proclus

ps want to hear about Achilles' shield and the grades above
the vault?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE                                                11/20/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: KATHLEEN MCGUIRE (FKSP88B)
Subject: MORMONS ARE PAGANS
Sent on: 11/20 at 10:53 AM

Mike,
   Heaven help us if the correlation committee were to get very
involved in the temple ceremonies!  I guess I need to explain the
temple prep class we attended.  It consisted of about 6 sessions of
one hour.  You would think they could do an adequate job with that
amount of time.  It was only in the last half of the last class that
anything was said about what would actually happen to me in the
temple.  Nothing was said about the penalties or about what happened
in the washing and anointing. It was pretty generic.  'You go into a
room where instructions will be given on how to take care of you
garments.  Then you will go to another room where they will clothe you
in your garments then they will take you to another room where you
will listen to the story of the creation and the plan for us.  Then
you will go through the veil.'  All the rest of the class time was
spent on the requirements for a recommend, why we do temple work, what
the temple are like inside, etc.  After the last class, Andy told me a
little more.  Even then, he was afraid to be too specific.  If only he
had!  I am someone who will wear a wet swimsuit home rather than
change my clothes if there are no changing stalls or a convient
bathroom.  I was terrified and humiliated by the fact that they were
touching my bare skin under that sheet!  As fascinated as I was by the
prayers and blessings I still will not do initiatory work.  If I had
been told more specifically what would be done I probably would have
been able to cope.
   Then I get into the session and see those penalties!  This was
something that was supposed to be beautiful and sacred and they were
using terror to keep us from talking about the ceremonies!  I could
not accept that God would use fear to control us.  It went against
everything that I thought God was.
   That was the only time I have been through a session with Andy.  It
looks e like it will be the last as well for a long time to come.  I
regret not going back with him when I could have.

   I need to leave I have an apointmnt with Melinda's teacher and
can't be late.

                               -kathleenMormons Are Pagans 6
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/20/92         4:35 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/20  9:49 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Trust me, you're never a pester! I'll get back with you
tomorrow or the next day. I am swamped with dead lines at
the moment. I like the idea of moving the Sirius topic to
the Mormon board and also ties with Kolob? Intriguing.
You're a good man, keep reading so we can compare. I've gone
through so much material this last few weeks, I'm going to
really enjoy swapping info with you and Andy, and whoever
else joins us.



                       Mephistopheles





PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/22/92         7:34 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    11/22  9:06 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEPHEN DICKEY   (WCVX48A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS ARE PAGANS

Hear, hear.  Corrolation has been one of the largest
disasters in the Church.  It is just a way to make sure
everyone and thing is in lock step with Salt Lake City.
There has to be a place in religion where there still can be
mysteries that the human mind needs to unravel him(her)self.
For that is part of the growing process.  I've visited
wonderful Gothic cathedrials in Europe that still contain
mysteries no less profound then those found in the motion
picture shown in the temple.  (Like how does the same guy
who plays Peter get so depressed when he can't find a Maytag
to fix?)

Remember.  Health in the Navel, Marrow in the Bones.
Strength in the Loins and in the Swinues.  Power in the
Preisthood be upon Me and upon my Posteriety Throughout all
Time and Throughout all Eternity.

Enos


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         11/22/92         7:40 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       WCVX48A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS ARE PAGANS
DATE:     11/22/1992


Enos

I don't think that you'll get any arguments about the
MORMON{THOUGHT POLICE around here.  Let's radicalize.

Think For Yourself
Question Authority                                   proclus
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