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Pagans1
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PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/26/93         4:50 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       ALL
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     04/26/1993


Elder Milton R Hunter said, "The Mystery Religions, pagan
rivals of Christianity, taught emphatically the doctrine
that 'men may become Gods'.  Hermes declared, 'We must not
shrink from saying that man on earth is a mortal god, and
that God in heaven is an immortal man.'  This thought
closely resembles the teachings of Joseph Smith and
Lorenzo Snow."  Hermes is of course the messenger of the
messenger of the gods.  If you have been following the
discussion of THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM, you may know that Nibley
gives Hermes as corresponding to Enoch the prophet. The
ancients claimed to have gained their knowledge of astronomy
from Hermes.  This means that he also has something in
common with Abraham.  Perhaps Abraham got his astrmonical
knowledge from Enoch.  He always said that the knowledge was
passed down from the fathers.

This subject is dedicated to the discussion of the Mormon
parallels with Paganism as opposed to Xtianity.  Many take
these parallels very seriously and have declared themselves
to be Mormon Pagans.  If you are a MormoPagan, GREETINGS AND
MERRY MEET!  We can also talk about the problems that are
faced by Pagan Mormons such as intolerance and loneliness.

hug a tree

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93         9:36 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/26  6:23 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Parallels like worship of the Goddess as well as God?  Has
anyone read Zachary Sitchin?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93         9:39 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       XXVV32C
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     04/27/1993


Cindy

Recognition of a female deity is an excellent example of a
pagan doctrine within Mormonism!  Who the heck is Zachary
Sitchin?
                  curious
                          proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93         9:40 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/26  8:00 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Hi, Proclus,
What about the Greek myth about the Water of Lethe, which
corresponds quite nicely to the LDS doctrine of
pre-existence and the Veil. The ancient Greeks believed that
we drew straws and "chose" our lot in this life, then drank
the water of forgetfulness before we came here... Beautiful,
isn't it?         Jacqueline, lover of mythology


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93         9:43 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       WWKF55B
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     04/27/1993


Jacqueline

Thanx, I've never heard of the Water of Lethe.  Maybe I just
forgot!  Many ritual traditions insist that they are just
reminding us of things that we already know.

         remember        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93         9:44 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/26  9:29 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CARL SONNE   (HMNF54A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Dear Proclus,
    Have you been reading Umberto Eco's "Focault's
Pendulum"?  This is all beginning to sound familiar, like
the Templar's possible connection with.... (G)--Carl (LDS)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93         9:47 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 12:53 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Hello!
  Pardon my wandering into your subject, but I'm reading it
with great fascination. Are you serious?? Are there mormons
who've accepted this ideology? I'm desperately curious, as
I've no reason whatsoever to be on this board, I'm a pagan
you see. A solid pagan, no mormonism interspersed or
anything, and I've always been puzzled by the parallels. I
had a close friend once tell me our beliefs were very
similar, he was a devout Mormon. How can they be compared?
There is a little mythology in every religion, true, but
Pagans are a wide-encompassing group, with multiple deities
and, more importantly, a Goddess, with powers far beyond the
god(s). Paganism is pretty feminist, when you get right down
to it, and I don't see much of my beliefs in mormonism. Help
me out here, explain. Perhaps we can enlighten one another.
                                     -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:08 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       DSMG69A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     04/27/1993


-Rebecca

Thanx for joining in!  Here is a small list of possible
parallels with paganism.

1. Humans can become gods.
2. Gods are fleshy, deified humans.
3. There are female gods.
4. The universe is not a simple division between heaven,
   earth and hell, but is a complex, multi-tiered system.

There are many other possible examples.  You might want to
set your clock back and pop up to the BOOK OF ABRAHAM
subject where we are discussing the parallels with Egyptian
ritual. Hang around these subjects too.  I would appreciate
any input that a "real" pagan would have on this important
issue.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Feminism is the major obstacle to communication between
Mormons and Pagans.  I have been trying to build bridges for
several years now.  The objection is that Mormons are
against women.  There are some good reasons for this
contention.  For example, the Mormon institution is
crystallized in a way that excludes the input of women.

On the other hand, many Mormon women would object
strenuously and assure us that Mormon doctrine is more
friendly to women than in any other "mainstream" church.
Also, feminism is alive and well in the ranks of Mormonism.
Given enough time, the exclusions against women are certain
to change.  All Mormons recognize the Goddess, or Mother in
Heaven.  The authorities have suggested that it is
inappropriate to pray to Her.  On the other hand, many of us
have found other avenues for our devotion to Her which we
pursue with great intensity.

              What think ye?

                                  proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:44 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       CTGV57A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     04/27/1993


Ken

See my reply in orthodox.  Were you (LDS) in a past life?

               Van Gogh of course!
                                    proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:57 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  3:09 AM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Ah, Jackie.  What about the PARALLELS between Assyrian
mythology and Genesis' account of the flood?????  Mythology,
or some truth in it warped through culture?  Oh, how about
the white, bearded god in Mexico????  Hmmmmmmmmmmmm????


Ken (lover of truth & mythology which MAY have SOME truth)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:58 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 10:02 AM

TO:      CARL SONNE   (HMNF54A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Carl

PENDULUM is on my reading stack for this summer.  Eco once
said that only Europeans would be able to understand it.
Have you read it?  Maybe we could compare notes on it later.

            tiphareth         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        11:06 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 11:03 AM

TO:      KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Ken

See my reply in orthodox.  Were you (LDS) in a past life?

               Van Gogh of course!
                                    proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        11:50 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       WWKF55B
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     04/27/1993


Jacqueline

That is what some of the scholars are telling us.  Many of
the modern pagan traditions represent a resurgent
Goddess-based religion.  In Mormonism, we have co-equal male
and female gods.
                       yin-yang         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        11:51 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 11:36 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus,
Was not the Minoan fertility goddess worship superseded by
the Greek male sky-God pantheon, and the steatopygous
stereotypes replaced by reduced female forms?
                                 Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        11:52 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 11:36 AM

TO:      KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Ken,
Don't get me started! It is, indeed, interesting to note the
corollary between ancient myth and scripture. The Epic of
Gilgamesh is but one of many examples of myths which
pre-date the scriptures. What does it all mean? I can accept
that scripture borrowed heavily from the prevailing cultural
influences. Why not?         Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:06 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 11:36 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Hey!
I have that book in my library, just waiting its turn to be
read. And, as luck would have it, I'm European. Whoopee!

                              Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:07 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 11:58 AM

TO:      KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Ken

Maybe the Assyrians knew something about the flood that the
Hebrews didn't.   Hmmmmmmmmm?

              lover
                    proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:07 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 12:06 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline

That is what some of the scholars are telling us.  Many of
the modern pagan traditions represent a resurgent
Goddess-based religion.  In Mormonism, we have co-equal male
and female gods.
                       yin-yang         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:08 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27 12:06 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline

Great!   Maybe you and Carl and I can discuss FOUCAULT'S
before the demise of our boards.

                 just
                      proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:08 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  4:03 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

proclus...
  Pagans have a strong belief that divinity is internal
(immanent) as well as external (transcendant). We find it
hard to pray 'to' the goddess, as we are all gods/goddesses.
We are born this way, we do not 'acheive' it as mormons do,
to my understanding. There aren't many proscripted behaviors
either, as we have no concept of sin or evil. Pagans
aren't divisive, we recognize that all beings are a mixture
of what is traditionally called 'good' and 'evil'. Behaviors
which others punish with church-dictated doctrine, we merely
accept. The only moral code is the threefold law, which I'm
sure you know.
  About the many tiered worlds....true we don't have heaven
and hell, or the City of God, or any of that. But
reincarnation comes into play here and before I say
anything, I'm curious: how does reincarnation jive with
mormon doctrine? Rather than "heaven" after we die, we're in
tune with karma, and Nirvana....it gets confusing as all
pagans have different beliefs.
  I could quote a thousand lines from the Book of Mormon
about the subjection of women. I know of the movement to
increase women's standings in the church, and of the
evidence that women once were priestesses, but it has never
seemed EQUAL, as it is in paganism. Am I wrong here?
  The Christians believe in the goddess as well, they merely
call her Mary. And they've stripped Her of any 'human'
behaviors, she is impossible to relate to as a woman, she is
not revered for being Mary, but for being the Mother of
Christ. The Goddess as we see Her is has as many foibles as
we do. Remember, the presence of divinity is internal.

  Hope I haven't rattled on too much. Thank you for being so
open-minded, I stand to learn alot here.
                                 -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:09 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  4:05 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Aye, and many of the Christian religions adopted pagan
traditions and called it their own. The modern pagan
movement is a "revival" of the matriarchal religions which
flourished long before the concept of male divinity came in
and took over, so to speak.
  I'm so glad someone mentioned The Epic of Gilgamesh! It is
one of many pre-scripture texts which are a practical
blueprint for Biblical Stories. Another subject I shouldn't
get started rattling on about....Truth (?) in the bible...

                            -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:10 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  4:42 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jackie, I don't want you to waste time.  BUT, I made my
point!  MYTHOLOGY can have SOME truth in it!


Ken (happy to abandon the topic)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:11 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  4:42 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Maybe, but I SURE KNOW that the Qumran society did!


Ken


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:11 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  4:51 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus,
Denying mortal women the priesthood, obscuring the female
deity and discouraging the worship of that deity is
tantamount to reducing the female forms. Where's the
co-equality there?
                  Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:11 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  4:51 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

On verra la suite apres.

                        J.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:13 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  4:54 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Dear Rebecca,
I'm fascinated. Tell me MORE!! How can I know if I'm a
pagan? What brought you to paganism? How does it fit in with
astrology, for example? Questions, questions!

                        Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:15 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  7:27 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline,
  What? A kindred spirit on this board? WOW! I read in
another subject that you were the "resident black sheep"--
explain this, please. Are you LDS? Something in me doubts
that very much 
  I suppose I've always known I was pagan. Both sets of
grandparents are mormon, but my parents seemed to have
escaped it quite nicely. My mom was always into astrology,
and my grandfather (who died long before I was born) had a #
of books on witchcraft. Its in the genes. When I was 14, I
started reading up on paganism and it all sounded so
familiar. I became a vegetarian around then, too (it kind of
fits in with pagan principles) and somehow the faith in me
for it keeps growing. Its lonely, as  there aren't many
pagans around, and I don't belong to any religious groups,
but my friends and family are quite tolerant of it.
  Astrology, reincarnation, paganism etc. all fit in under
the big umbrella of 'new age' stuff, which is misleading,
but they are all interconnected. Most wiccans follow
astrology, believe in holistic healing, and have a great
mind for herbs and good health. The major wiccan festivals
celebrate the changing of the seasons, thus another
connection with astrology and the stars. The pagan religions
have long been based on fertility (of people, crops,
animals) and have been around eons longer than my
imagination stretches. Its a simple, nature-based way of
thinking....Any other ?s, experiences? Ideas? I'd be happy
to chat with you!                   -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/27/93        10:17 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  8:20 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CARL SONNE   (HMNF54A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus,
   Yes, I have read Focault's Pendulum, and would recommend
it -- based upon your notes, I'm positive you'll love it. I
shouldn't spoil the ending, but the theme or message of
F.P. is quite appropos to this topic.  Suffice it to say
that it explores the value and danger of drawing
"connections" or parallels in history and literature.-Carl


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/28/93         7:23 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28  1:53 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

All right mike,
  You have stated several times that there are other ways to
show our devotion to the Goddess.  Get specific and
Enlighten me!
                                     -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/28/93         7:24 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28 11:58 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

So THIS is where you've been hangin out! Did you get my
latest on THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM subject? There's a LOT more to
go there. This is an interesting board. Dare I hang around
pagans though (G!)


                  Kerry A. Shirts P.S.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Zachariah Sitchin wrote the series of books (5 of em....so
far) in the Earth Chronicles series, exploring the various
dimensions of the ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian,
Aztecan, Mayan views of the Gods. I'm in "The Stairway to
Heaven right now. He's an interesting read to be sure. Don't
miss A. Hislop's "The Two Babylons" either! Incredible ties
in there with "The Sirius Mystery". Hey we could be on this
subject for quite awhile!


                       Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/28/93         7:25 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28  5:15 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Why is it I just knew you'd be here Mike?????

    Mike Love = Pagan subjects.....

     Matt


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/28/93         7:25 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28  6:46 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Dear Rebecca,
I'm going to love getting to know you... Where to begin?
Mmm. I bill myself the resident black sheep because I was
LDS but left the church about four years ago because of
doctrinal dissent. However, I miss the LDS lifestyle and I
feel like a fish out of water in mainstream society.
Nevertheless, I can't compromise my integrity. I've always
been a mythology lover. At university, it occurred to me
that there was quite a striking corollary between the
ancient Greek myths and Christian scripture. When I began to
question the validity of the LDS doctrine, I also began to
question the nature of God...
I've had a lot of multi-cultural experience, living all over
the world, and I try to learn something from every culture
and philosphy. Nature-based thinking appeals to me on some
level,(I swear by water as a cure-all) although
intellectually I understand the aetiological nature of
fertility worship. I eat meat, but only very sparingly
because I don't much like it.
I'm an animal lover. My Celtic genes predispose me to pursue
the mystical. When I was young, I realised I was psychic. At
nineteen, I had two dreadful experiences which terrified me
so much that I consciously began to "push away" that
aptitude. All that is left of it is that I'm somewhat
intuitive, and occasionally still have the odd prophetic
dream. My older brother and I (we are both Pisceans) have
some sort of telepathic ability between us, even although we
have not lived in the same country for 25 years. I'm
embarrassed to be posting all of this publicly!.Tell me
more about Paganism. Is there a some sort of belief
structure to it, or is it just free-form interpretation? Is
it organized, as such? How would you describe its greatest
appeal compared to Christianity, for instance? Is Paganism
compatible with other forms of religion, would you say?
Questions! Questions! Questions!

                                Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:22 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28 11:26 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS



I just KNEW I'd find you here!  It  good to read these
things.   Truth among all people, in all the writings!

                       ***Trey (the closet Pagan)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:23 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28 11:30 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Hey,
 Lets not forget the similarities between Native American
'shamanism' and Mormonism!  I know its not Pagan, but
intriguing just the same.   The 1/4 part of me that's
Mattaponi just loves delving into this.
            Maybe I'll post some parallels this weekend,
                    hmmmmmmmmmm    ***Trey (***)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:24 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28 11:55 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

I agree J. and I hope that we own up to our own religious
heritage and begin to acknowledge the Mother more fully,
admit that women are priestesses, and SHOUT from the
rooftops that men and women are co-equal on Earth and in the
heavens.   I see the opposite behavior as our strong
tendency to acquiesce to the prevailing American and
Protestant mainstream.  We should REVEL in our uniqueness
and differences and not cover them in whispered discussions.
We are NOT Protestant, we are NOT American, we are Mormons
and have not realized the wonderful truths we hold.

                       ***Trey stepping off his box.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:28 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/29  1:18 AM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

If you keep stepping off your box, your gonna sprain an
ankle, but keep stepping off it. I agree with you, bring out
the discussion. Interesting how the so-called Pagan elements
fascinate so many of us supposed "Orthodox" Mormons?!
Actually I am anything but orthodox, but Mike and I have
gotten a discussion going with Joseph Smith's hypocephalus
and facsimiles in the book of Abraham, and now he's adding
material here, and you just ain't a gonna buh-leeve the
ideas he has. Well, YOU will, but it is so interesting. Now
if I can only catch up on some reading in this subject I may
have something good to post. This Love guy is fun to follow.
I'm glad you're here as I have always enjoyed reading your
ideas as well. I'm hoping Andy hops into this if he's still
around. I've seen Kathleen a bit, but not him. I have a lot
more to develop in the facsimiles, which will probably spill
over into here. Hope you guys don't mind that angle. I've
always wanted to see how Mormons would handle this material
anyway, what better place than here?  Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:33 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/29 11:35 AM

TO:      KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kerry,
  Your wish will be granted.  Andy will be back tonight
after he gets home from work (first day, REAL job.)  No more
swing shift work and making job contacts during the day. Now
he will have time for *P.
   Have fun!
                                   -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/30/93         9:31 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/29  7:55 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline & Rebecca --
  Are either one of you into a resurgence of the Goddess?
This is the movement that compels me, both in and out of the
Church.  Carol Lynn Pearson's "Mother Wove the Morning" is
an excellent introduction, but it just skims the surface.
If you are interested in the Goddess, I'd love to share the
high points of a paper I gave at Sunstone in SF last month
entitled "Paranoid Patriarchy:  Coercion, Threats and
Doublespeak Against the Divine Feminine."


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:47 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/30 11:04 PM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy,

   Please do share with us the high points!

                ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:50 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/29 11:25 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclust....
   Howdy.  Sorry to stay away from The Prod for so long, but
between farming myself out through a temp service and
looking for a "real" job, I've been a wee bit busy.

   I see three major types of people who leave Mormonism.
1} Those who suffer rampant dogmatism and allow the fundies
to nab them.  2} Those who just don't want to bother with
ANY religion.  3} Those who gain a sound theological/ethical
base from Mormonism, but find that there is a nebulous
"something" that is missing in the church.

   Many people of the latter category find their way into
Paganism.
   Why paganism?  Despite the best efforts of "the brethren"
to erect a mainstream facade before our religion, the fact
is that our beliefs are just too far from traditional
Xtianity for Mormons to relate.  You mentioned a few points,
Mike, such as Goddess/Mother in Heaven and Man=God.  But
there is more.  There is a fundamental link between
Mormonism and Paganism that runs very deep and is very
powerfull.  I have not yet put my finger on what that link
is, but I am looking.

   As for me, my recently ended search for a job was not an
easy task.  It was something of a trial and put a lot of
presure on me.  It was also a valuable experience and I
learned a lot from it.
   During this trial, did I draw any strength from my
Mormonism...from the church members, the organization, the
beliefs, the faith in the Mormon God?  No.  Not a shred.
   But I did draw a lot of strength from my recently
acquired Pagan ethics and practices.  Certain tools, drawn
from the Golden Dawn and from Wicca, kept me sane and
motivated.  These practices will continue to help me.

   Do I recommend that other Mormons follow my course?  Not
at all.  If someone like Grant Johnson or Marsha Steed can
find what they need in Mormonism, that is great.  I would
have it no other way.  But if you are a Mormon, and if
Mormonism just doesn't light your fire, take a look at
Paganism.  You may be surprised.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:51 AM

   BTW, with many people fleeing The Prod, I guess I should
set the record straight for those who have followed my
antics over the last few years.
   My joking and prodding at the church have been the result
of a battle being fought between my Mormon upbringing and
what was deep within my soul.  The battle is now over.
   In support of my wife and children, I will remain
socially active in the LDS church.  I will not, however,
accept any calling that is of a spiritul nature.  In my
heart of hearts, I am no longer a Mormon.  Yet I hesitate to
call myself a full fledged Pagan.  I am simply......




                                            ...andy


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:51 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/30 11:05 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Hello, simply andy,
       It was very good to read your note.  I have always
felt you were one of those reasonable balanced human beings
that could make personalPagans2
=======
 choices and not chide others for
making different ones.  You are wonderful and I can't wait
to meet you this June!            ***Trey
PS You know there are some of us who are devout LDS who
EMBRACE the pagan differences of our faith.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:51 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  9:20 AM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

***Trey

Embrace is a strong word.  I think it is quite apt.

                    ritual hug
                               proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:55 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       KFVW57A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Trey

Please feel free to post the material you have on shamanism.
I think it is relevant, and I enjoyed what you told us in
the subject MORMONS ARE PAGANS.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>our unique heretage>>>>>>>>>>>
Elder Maxwell is eclectic, beleive it or not!

proclus

ps Thanx for your wonderful post on the acknowledgement of
the Goddess and the defense our unique Mormon heretage.  I
agree 100%.  Our teachings differ widely from the mainstream
in many respects.  We have been given these unorthodox
teachings for a reason.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        12:16 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Andy

I think your note highlights some of the prominant issues
facing Mormo{Pagans.  1) dissatisfaction with the PR
activities of the Church which highlight our socially
acceptable facade but minimize the colorful and unique
aspects, 2) the resulting superficial treatment of our
teachings on Sundays, 3) the lack of closeness which results
from the current hierarchical structure of the institution,
4) finally, the lack of women's input at the decision making
level.

The Pagan/Wiccan connection provides a ready made framework
for addressing these issues in a manner that is consistent
with the ultimate goals of the Church.  These may be some of
the reasons why we find so many former Mormons embracing
these unorthodox teachings in a big way.  Sometimes it seems
as if the world is trying to homogenize us.  The media
shapes our taste and preferences into a framework that can
be shared by the largest possible market.

In all of this we yearn for our own identity, our own
heretage.  For Mormons, that identity is derived from the
things that make us different from the rest of the world,
our unique teachings, and our colorful history.

                    grandfathers
                                 proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        12:22 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       DSMG69A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Rebecca

It was sure nice to read your story.  In a sense, Mormons
have always been pagans too.  We just haven't thought of
ourselves that way before.  The pagan teachings were always
there, mixed in with other things.
               >>>>>Ancient and Modern Practices>>>>
I take it that you looked up at our BOOK OF ABRAHAM subject.
The fact is that the Wiccan initiation, as described in
SPIRAL DANCE, is isomorphous, point by point, with the
Mormon temple endowment.  Mormon scholars, like Nibley, have
studied and published at length showing how the Mormon
ritual relates to ancient practices.  Non-mormon pagans have
much to gain from these studies.  I contend that these
studies show how well modern pagan/wiccan initiation
reproduces in great detail the practices from the ancient
past.
   >>>>>>>>>How to use the studies>>>>>>>>>
A criticism of the recent boom in pagan religion has been
that these movements are strictly modern developments, that
they have no "real" connection with ancient religions.  This
is the same criticism that the Mormons have been facing for
almost two hundred years.  That is why our scholars have
been so zealous to demonstrate parallels with the ancient
practices like the egyptian initiatory cycle.  All pagans
can benefit from the work of these zealous academicians.
These studies may also be applied to ritual design.  The
ancients obviously had some ingenious ways to produce
initiation and its effects.

world tree

proclus

ps Mormons do beleive in a kind of reincarnation.  We are
eternal beings.  We have always existed, and will always
exist.  There is just one unfamiliar constraint.  There is
only one cycle on earth.  Mortal life is a unique experience
for each individual and is only repeated once.  I have some
speculative material to explain past-life experiences and
justify the one shot deal, if you are not satisfied with
this postscript.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        12:24 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       CWXH30A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Kerry

I think I posted some original material on SIR GAWAIN AND
THE GREEN KNIGHT up in BOOK OF ABRAHAM.  I am sure you
probably already saw it though.

grey eyes               proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        12:31 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       WWKF55B
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Jacqueline

You don't have to tell me that the feminine aspect needs
more recognition in Mormonism.  Many of us are working
towards that goal.  Unfortunately, it is not going to happen
over night.  The male-dominated authoritarian powers are too
heavily entrenched.  Cindy and Maurine have given us
excellent suggestions for how to accelerate the recognition
of the Goddess in our own lives.  We don't have to wait for
someone to tell us it is OK.  We can just do it.

I am no expert, but here are some of my suggestions.  (Here
you go, Kathleen.)  Think about the Goddess often.  Yearn to
Her.  Live your life as an example of the Goddess.  This
means healing and protecting Her children,  respecting women
as the veritable image of the divine,  and doing Her
rituals.  These rituals include casting a circle (prayer
circle in Mormon terms) or making love under the stars. If
we do these things Her love will readiate through us and
encourage others.  Then there is the militant approach...
        (Then there is the cultural terrorist approach...)
I think it is now obvious that it is possible to do all this
AND remain in the Church.  I favor staying in the Church.  I
am not saying that you should have stayed though, since that
is a very personal decision.

I appreciated your story.  The Love name comes from a little
town near Glasgow, which gives me Celtic genes.  I am a
piscean too.  Perhaps these things do predispose me to what
Jung called "the oceanic experience".  In my normal state I
like rivers much better though.

wet feet

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         8:41 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  8:35 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

I would be interested in doing a small demographic survey on
Mormons and their attitudes.  I think I have observed that
those from pioneer heritage are now the renegades, and those
whose parents, etc., and/or selves have converted since the
Great Accommodations (turn of the century) are the follow
like blind sheep crowd.
  Has anyone else noticed this?  What is your heritage?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         8:43 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       XXVV32C
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Cindy

You may be right.  I'm third and fourth generation pioneer
stock, Pennsylvania, Nauvoo.

        endowment house
                       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         8:49 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       WWKF55B
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Hey!

My wife, Dad, and Maternal Grandpa are all Sagittarians!

            curiouser and curiouser
                                    proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         8:52 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  8:35 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

I have this strange theory -- bear with me a minute.  It
seems to me that worship of the Father is done with the left
side of the brain, in speech and the written word (ie
scriptures), and in rational theology.  Is it possible that
the worship of the Mother is done with the left side of the
brain, with symbols and rituals in the worship that touch a
side of our soul that other methods cannot?  I am very
intrigued by Goddess pagan ritual because it speaks to me
very powerfully.  And yes, I agree, there is much within
Mormonism to support this.  There is so much going on at the
archtypical level, or the cosmic unconscious, or whatever
you want to call it.  Some of my friends contend there is
much in the temple to confirm it, also, but I'm still very
skeptical regarding that.
  Thoughts?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:16 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  1:14 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus;
  We travel twice, once spiritually, then physically.



bonnie (seeing a few pillars...)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:16 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  8:35 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

I have this strange theory -- bear with me a minute.  It
seems to me that worship of the Father is done with the left
side of the brain, in speech and the written word (ie
scriptures), and in rational theology.  Is it possible that
the worship of the Mother is done with the left side of the
brain, with symbols and rituals in the worship that touch a
side of our soul that other methods cannot?  I am very
intrigued by Goddess pagan ritual because it speaks to me
very powerfully.  And yes, I agree, there is much within
Mormonism to support this.  There is so much going on at the
archtypical level, or the cosmic unconscious, or whatever
you want to call it.  Some of my friends contend there is
much in the temple to confirm it, also, but I'm still very
skeptical regarding that.
  Thoughts?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:17 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01 12:40 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline,
  Sorry its taken me awhile to get back to you, I haven't
been on line lately. This subject is both fascinating and
disturbing. I had some idea that LDS and Paganism shared a
few traits, but was always too righteously Pagan to hear
them out. Shame on me. I made a valiant attempt once to
bring a mormon friend over the the Pagan ways, and perhaps
if I'd have let him find them on his own it may have worked.
  Anyhow, a Pisces? No wonder you're intuitive, my friend.
Pisces is the last of the water signs and has all the
emotional, intuitive, dreamy qualities emphasized to the
extreme. I'm a Sagittarius, the true independent free
thinking extremist, which is probably why I'm spouting pagan
things on a mormon board .
   Psychic abilities are compelling and disturbing,
especially if you've not been taught to channel them or
interpret them. As much as I'd like to be psychic, I
seriously doubt any of it exists within me. I'm good at
reading others thoughts, telepathy in a unique way, but not
much of that happens either. Darn. I have, however, learned
to meditate and tune into the Self thanks to paganism.
Perhaps someday that will unlock the ole' psychic abilities.
Guard that intuition of yours--its a lovely trait!
  What was it you asked about paganism? Its appeal? What
appeal? I've been beating the trees all over the world,
trying to shake pagans out of them and I haven't found many.
Seriously, I think christian doctrine is far too restrictive
for many people. it dictates to them, rather than
incorporating them into religion. Same with LDS in my
experiences. I thank the women's movement and the 60's for
bringing paganism back into the fold. There could have just
as easily been a resurgence of Hindu or Buddhism at the
time, but thankfully people began to recognize the negative
aspect on women of christian society. Thats what bothers me
most about organized American religions....women aren't
valued or respected. It encourages society to keep them
repressed and breeds no self-esteem or respect or whatever
for women.
  Whew- enough feminist preaching. I get carried away
sometimes.
  You're Celtic? Aye, so am I. Straight from the British
Isles to America in 1909, according to the family tree.
  Is paganism compatible to other religions? Yes, and no.
Not to christianity, at the heart of it, it preaches against
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:18 PM

pagan ideals. Though, there are a few quotes that fit in,
the whole of it is incompatible. Buddhism fits in, to a fair
degree, and the native American traditions are pagans of a
different name. Pagan is a broad sweeping identifier anyhow,
of any nature-revering multi-deitied, immanent theology.
More about that later. I've got a bit of literature which
spells out paganism but I'm not sure if I should post it,
whaddya think? It seems as though there are mormons trying
to learn about *p and I don't want to be presumptuous enough
to enlighten them, but I do know that of which I speak. And
here I am, a Pagan trying to get a clue about mormons. Its
a bizarre world.
  What university did you go to? How'd you manage to travel
the world? The questions continue.......
                                        -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:21 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  8:47 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Rebecca --
  You sound like a true kindred soul.  You are the first one
I have heard within the kin of Mormonism who yearns for the
old ways.  I am also a pagan feminist, totally 100% Celtic
in my ancestry (early Mormon convert pioneers) and trying to
find a place.  Some of the new agers in this vein are a
little scary, and others are too timid.  I would love to
find a place to be comfortable.
  Have you tried the tarot cards for your abilities?  They
really help.  I use the Rider deck for left brain real world
readings and the Old Path deck for spiritual and feminist
issues.  I highly recommend it.
  I'll reply to your other post against it.
        Cindy


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:24 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  6:30 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus,
Much as I am tickled by the idea of making love under the
stars, I'm a very shy Piscean and I can't see it happening
anytime soon, even in the name of ritual!
Could you please define the Goddess for me? How can you say
that to worship Her is compatible with modern-day
Patriarchal Mormonism? The powers that be would freak out if
they knew you were promoting Goddess worship. I, however, am
open-minded and unfazed. It makes sense to me!
Wait till I tell my Sagittarian husband - he's going to LOVE
this!
              Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:26 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  8:50 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline --
  Start by blessing your children (if available)!  I not
only participated verbally in the Blessing (naming) of my
last daughter, but I got the Church to officially recognize
it.  (That's another story.)  Yes, cast a circle and pray to
her!  If that scares you, then just go outside in your bare
feet, throw your arms up, and call to Her.  It's incredible.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93         9:28 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01  8:53 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

I forget something.
  Yes, the old men in suits in SL would freak out -- but
Joseph didn't.  He encouraged the women to use their
priestesshodd to bless and heal others, both physically and
spiritually.  The Church acknowledges the Mother, and then
forbids gender inclusive language.  Sometimes what they
don't know won't hurt us.  There is room in the doctrine
for the Mother, just not room in the culture of RS and SS.
Since when did free thinking Saggs give two hoots?
  Obedience is NOT the first principle of the Gospel.  Love
is.  Remember, do what is right and let the consequence
follow.....
                  Cindy


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:55 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       WWKF55B
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


Jacqueline

I don't have any special definition for Mother in Heaven, as
She is known to Mormons.  She is the Mother of our spirits
and the consort of our Father.  She loves us more than we
can imagine.  She has been, is, and always will be our
Goddess.                            >>>>>>>>>>>
She is the Goddess of Mormonism.

Now, it is difficult for me to see what any corporate,
authoritarian, male-dominated institution has to do with
Mormonism.  It just happens to be the current structure of
the Church.  I feel that there are those among the
authorities who welcome the re-emergence of the Goddess.

It is impolite for a man to tell a woman not to worship the
Goddess, like burping in public.  Some of the authorities
quite rude.             trying to be nice      proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/02/93         6:51 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       XXVV32C
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/02/1993


Cindy

That left/right, God/Goddess idea is a pretty good model.  I
agree with your freinds that it is found in the temple.  You
just have to recognize that the prayer circle is FOR THE
GODDESS.  There are a lot of good reasons for making this
assumption, and we can discuss them if you like.
Meanwhile, I see that you like the Tarot.  I'll give you
some comments from my on-line commentary that represent my
feelings on this subject pretty well.

"On the road to knowledge, the magician guides the fool to
the High Priestess.  She sits on a throne between dark and
light pillars  or positive and negative forces.   On her lap
the Priestess holds the Tora, or book of divine law.  The
source of sanctioned spiritual wisdom, she is robed in the
garments of high office.
"As the authority in spiritual matters, the Hierophant wears
the triple crown of a pope and sits between two stone
pillars.  Two keys are crossed at the base of the dais and
two priests kneel to receive his wisdom.  Where the High
Priestess provides spiritual education only for the
initiated, the Hierophant informs the world's masses."

The world needs High Priestesses AND Hierophants.

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/02/93         7:01 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       XXVV32C
SUBJECT:  MORMON WOMEN'S FORUM
DATE:     05/02/1993


Cindy

I can't find your original note so I
thought I'd send this to you personally.
Thanx for the titles!  In the best of
worlds we could combine the Wiccan and
Pagan subjects.  Unfortunately, it is
still a fact that most Mormons don't
have any idea what Wicca is.  They would
simply pass the subject by.  Meanwhile,
Many have some strange affinity with
Paganism, of which several of us have
spoken.  Paganism is a common term.  For
these reasons I think it is problematic
to lump the two subjects together.  It
is the coupling of the titles that makes
this whole effort fly.
technicalities

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         6:21 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  8:58 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Mike;
  Perhaps I am eclectic in my approach of my belief system.
The synthesis of my perceptions is unique.


 bonnie (quietly frustrated...muted cygnus...)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         6:22 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02 11:39 PM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Andy surely is wonderful.  I know from personal (finally!)
experience.  He says much more than in merely words.


Can't wait to meet him (and you Trey) again in June...

---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         6:24 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  2:39 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

And both are in the temple!
  Before the film (in live sessions), the participants moved
from room to room in procession, and ended up in the
"middle" which is considered the holiest and most sacred
place.  Does this ring any bells?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:20 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02 11:39 PM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Andy surely is wonderful.  I know from personal (finally!)
experience.  He says much more than in merely words.


Can't wait to meet him (and you Trey) again in June...

---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:21 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/01 12:21 PM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy,
  In re: to your offer to post about the paranoid patriarchy
paper...YES! A resurgence of the goddess is exactly what I
am into and kindred spirits are sometimes hard to find. Yes,
please share with us, publicly or privately!
                                            -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:22 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  2:36 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Rebecca --
  Please e-mail me personally and I'll be glad to send you a
copy of the entire talk.  Although this is a unique topic
heading that some dogmatics probably won't search under, I'm
under attack for my so-called apostasy and I think that
casting my pearls publically right now would not be prudent.
 But I'd love to share with you!    ... Blessings...


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:36 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  2:39 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

And both are in the temple!
  Before the film (in live sessions), the participants moved
from room to room in procession, and ended up in the
"middle" which is considered the holiest and most sacred
place.  Does this ring any bells?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:36 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  4:09 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

   All this is such genuine food for thought. The 'modern'
wiccan movement has evolved greatly from ancient practices,
thanks to the interpretations of Gerald Gardner, Ray
Buckland, Alestair Crowley et al. The goddess religions, and
simple Wicca itself derive directly from the Old British
religions, from BC to about 800AD, when they went
underground. Pagans have always been more present in the
British Isles than, say, in America the Puritan Land! What I
study is much like the paganism around back then, which
incorporates Druid rituals and Celtic magic. To say that
pagans are fighting for an identity with some previous
religion puzzles me. Even the Celts and Druids adapted
things from the Egyptian fertility rituals, and aligned
themselves pretty nicely with the Roman gods and goddesses.
   Ah, we are all one in the eyes of humanity.
 I never understood how mormons explained the 'apostasy'
between the time of God, per se, and the time of Joseph
Smith. Please explain, if you can.
 I'll be satisfied with your 'reincarnation' ideas as you've
already posted. I'm not searching for holes in the
arguments, just curious about the core of your beliefs.
 Another bone of contention between pagans and mormons comes
from the old evolution/Darwinian theory of how we all got
here. Where do you see the origins of man?
  Pardon my consistent interrogation, but its been quite
awhile since I had an honest LDS person willing to chat
about beliefs without trying to convert me !
                                              -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:38 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  6:38 PM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy

Yes!  Have you read Nibley's article on the sacred dance of
the disciples?  I'm going to post some of it, and Quinn's
comments in a few days.

                         cone of power    proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:41 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  4:22 PM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy,
  Yes, I've used many tarot decks and find them all
beautiful representations of archetypes. The individual
interpretations don't thrill me, but the pictures and images
do. Odd. I like the Tarot of the Old Path, its particularly
feminist. Can Mormons do tarot? I mena, within the confines
of the church? A friend of mine was scolded once for having
a deck.
  I will e-mail you in regards to the script of that
lecture. Always looking for new theories to fit in with the
patriarchy-bashing I do!
  I've considered doing my graduate work in college in
Women's Studies, specifically women and religion, but
decided to stick with English instead. I expect to write
books about this stuff someday, and am eager to keep in
touch with the women'sspirituality movement.
  I try to be an open minded little pagan, its tough. I know
the new agers are intimidating, and they'd probably chastise
me for writing here, but I've got a stake in finding out
about mormon beliefs. I've got a great curiousity about all
religions, esp. mormons because a few near and dear friends
of mine are LDS.
  Are you under fire for apostasy because of your work
looking into the goddess movement? Does this give credence
to the complaint that the church is against freedom of
thought and interpretation? I've heard this criticism from
many  members, what do you think?
      Thanks for keeping in touch....
                                     Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:44 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  7:40 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Rebecca --
  I am of the same mind that there is much compatibility
between the Old Religion and Mormonism, but the only
concession the official church will make is an acknowledge-
ment of the existence of the Goddess.  But anyone trying for
more information than that is branded as heretical.  I do it
anyway because it consumes me, if you know what I mean, and
I think that a worship of the Mother will empower women in
ways we can only imagine.  I work within the Church on this
issue because 1) there is so much work to do!, and 2) the
Church is the perfect place to study patriarchy in all its
unglory.  I firmly believe that all the evils of patriarchy
are ROOTED in the absence of the Goddess -- we live in a
Motherless house where the little boys have gone completely
wild and uncivilized.  If we acknowledge and worship Her, we
will have a return to life-nurturing and sustaining
societies.  This is my goal.  I am a history and women's
studies major, and plan to go back to do my graduate work
in feminist history and spirituality.
  The LDS powers that be would recoil in horror to the tarot
cards, yet many of my Mormon friends and companions accept
them with curiosiity at first, and when they see the cards
as an accurate tool (and I explain how they work, i.e.,
without demonology!), they use them, too.
  I wish you lived around the corner.  I've love to invite
you over and chat for several months.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:48 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02 10:03 PM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy,
  Not only a kindred spirit but a peer as well! I must agree
about researching the patriarchy within the confines OF its
very soul, i.e. The Church. The fact that women are absent
from much patriarchal dogma is horrible, but the way it
speaks down to them and denies the life-giving attributes
inherent in women is intolerable. I just can't see how
society can go on without acknowledging the goddess in her
many forms. Of course, if you were a man and had control of
all the rules and power, would you be eager to relinquish
any of it??
  Have you ever read any of Mary Daly's books? I speak
specifically of 'Beyond GodPagans3
=======
 the Father'. I think you'd enjoy
it, though she is a bit "radical" whatever that means! 
  Wishing I lived around the corner...whereabouts is your
corner? CA somewhere? I'm in Las Vegas, which is
unfortunately around the corner from nothing at all!
  To keep this on-topic, so as the *p police don't kick
me off, do you plan on staying LDS and incorporating pagan
beliefs? I don't want to be nosy, but it fascinates me how
deeply ingrained mormon beliefs are into member's everyday
lives. (for example: marrying within the church, socially
dominated church activities, the hierarchy one aspires to
ascend, you know!)
        Thanks for chatting,
                            Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:50 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03 12:29 AM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy,
I enjoyed your note to Rebecca and appreciated your
observation that we live in a Motherless world. The Greeks
may be partly to blame for this: their Male Sky-God and his
Pantheon superseded  Minoan Fertility Goddess worship. As a
concession, many of the female goddess forms were kept and
interwoven into the mythology, but many of them were
"reduced" to virgin status. That's the root of patriarchy
right there!
Though the patriarchs discourage it on the pretext of
"respect", it seems natural to me as a woman to
worship a female deity. I'm not DESIGNED to emulate the
male!
Keep posting. I enjoy your remarks.

                                   Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         7:58 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  4:23 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

proclus,
  I've been hit with a thought while reading through this
subject. Some of you folks in your reverence to and
recognition of the goddess are more pagan than half the
'true' pagans I know! Those in the movement often get too
wrapped up in the ceremonies, rituals, etc. and forget that
paganism's first virtue is simplicity.
  What you said about making love under the stars, Cindy's
call to go out barefoot and throw your arms up in the air,
THIS IS PAGANISM!

  Congratulations folks, you're walking a fine line between
two vastly different spiritualities and so far, seem to be
making it work.
                merry part,
                       Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:01 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03 12:40 AM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Rebecca and Others,
Can anyone describe to me exactly how to "cast a circle"?
Also, please enumerate some of the many forms of the goddess
for me, will you?
                  Thanks,
                          Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:01 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  1:09 AM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline,
  I'm not sure if 'casting' is universally the same, as we
tend to make do with what elements we have on hand. Casting
a circle in the countryside is much easier than in the city!
  First, I draw the circle, either outlining it with a
string or cord, or with chalk, paint, etc. My circle is
actually on the back patio and gets outlined with oil-based
crayons (color coordinated to the appropriate occasions!
). Then, light the candles, incense, whatever. I always
have three candles. An invocation to the elements is next.
Fire is south, air is east, water is west, earth is north.
Starhawk has some nice words for this in The Spiral Dance.
Nothing formulated or set in stone, just whatever comes to
mind. Then, a greeting or invitation to the goddess (es) and
gods you're honoring or thinkin of. Mine is usually a hello
to the full moon, and I always seem to call her Diana, after
the huntress.
  Its important to center yourself as well. After you've
finished lighting candles and talking to the goddess, I
meditate for a period, picture the circle as sacred,
magical, safe space and go about raising "the cone of
power", which is another tale. There. The circle is cast.
Lots of books will tell you many ways, but I find the simple
way the best for me. Its an individual thing, much of your
own 'style' goes into it. Folks will tell you circles are
closed, don't roam in and out of them once they've been cast
etc. However, I find no problem in going in and out, so long
as you picture a symbolic opening when you crossover. My cat
likes to wander around the circle, but he tends to stay out
of it during "rituals". Some familiar, eh?
  Enough of my interpretations...any other fledgling pagans
care to add something and help us out here?

                                   -Rebecca


PS- The circle is also supposed to be nine feet in diameter,
but who has that kind of vacant space available, and who
wants to carry around a tape measure in the dead of night?
Not I, for sure!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:09 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  2:13 AM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

I am a billionth generation druid!    (just kidding)

MY OWN OPINION is that knowledge of the mother God we have
is reserved for the spirit world or later.  I DO know that
the early Christian saints had prayer circles.  I don't want
to talk "too much" outside of the temple about this, but the
altar has names placed upon it and we
pray for those people. No "Pagan" meanings!

I PERSONALLY think the "procession" AFTER the endowment
ceremony is JUST an ORDERLY WAY of people exiting the room!

Also, I don't think the "hierarchy" is as stiff necked and
rigid as you think.
Ken (LDS)

P.S.  The ONLY think "different" about us LDS is that we
believe the earth is a LIVING thing. Pagan???


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:10 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03 11:36 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus,
How do you make love under the stars without getting
arrested? Seriously! It's an appealing idea, but - isn't it
risky to be frisky al fresco?
                         Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:11 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  3:17 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Mike:
    ...'making love under the stars'...oooooh!! That sounds
nice. How do you think I should talk my husband into that
one? Maybe I shouldn't talk at all, huh?

                Kim \ make love not war


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:12 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  5:57 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline,
  You just have to be discreet....
  This Piscean loves to do anything outdoors.  Sometimes at
night when I am walking outside I have to really restrain
myself to keep from shouting and dancing.  (Our neighbors
already think we are weird, I don't want to PROVE it.)
   The night is magickal.           -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:13 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  6:51 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline

Go camping or on a picnic.  You'ld be surprised how easy it
is to find seclusion in Nature.  If all else fails, try it
at Night!
                 bed of leaves
                                   proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:13 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  6:51 PM

TO:      KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kim

Light a fire and talk about romantic things.  It really sets
the mood.

                 flickering
                            proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:14 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  7:12 PM

TO:      KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kim,
Let us know where to post your bail!

           Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:14 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  7:25 PM

TO:      KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kathleen,
Ah-hah! Now I know I'm not nuts.
How's Saint Andrew these days? We haven't heard from him in
a while.
         Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/03/93         8:15 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  7:25 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus,
Gosh, I've led a sheltered existence!

                           Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        10:42 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/04/1993


Andy

Are we going to do anything about that
judgemental little note to you from
Erica Richins?  The knats are starting
to knip!
          proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        10:43 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03  9:08 PM

TO:      MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
FROM:    JOHN WISE   (RDCW86A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Marsha--
  Just running by and noticed (again) that someone mentioned
some "reunion" type thing occurring in June.  Can you fill
me in as to what this "reunion" thing is?

                          Mucho appreciado,
                                           JOHN


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        10:43 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03 11:50 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    E RICHINS   (DJCH44A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Andy, have you made these feelings/ideas re: your paganism
known to your bishop?  Do you realize what a disservice you
are doing to your wife?  She now has no hope of celestial
glory at your side.  Too bad.  She will miss you.

Erica (hoping you will pray a little more about this) @@
                                                      \/


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:06 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03 10:25 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Mike:

     How lucky your wife is to have such a romantic guy.
     Thanks for the advice.

                           Kim \ a romantic forever


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:06 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03 10:33 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline:

      Bail???? Hmmm...I've never been in jail before. Just
think of the memories.:-}

                     Kim \ who will be descrete
P.S. Thanks for the offer. I'll let you know.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:07 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/03 11:51 PM

TO:      KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kim,
You can't be too careful!

                         Jacqueline


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:08 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04  1:55 AM

TO:      KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
FROM:    ROB KILLIAN   (DRHV76A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kim: (Also an example of strong Mormon women to me)

Sex outdoors is wonderful....and it is spring...I doubt that
you'd have to talk to hard to your husband...just make sure
its after dark...and in a somewhat secluded area...not on
the front porch.....
                       Rob (also known as Mark Larsen)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:09 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04  1:55 AM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    ROB KILLIAN   (DRHV76A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

My oldest son was conceived under a cherry tree on Ash
Avenue in Provo, Utah....and that was probably one of the
most memorable nights in my life....
                                       Rob


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:09 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04 12:02 PM

TO:      ROB KILLIAN   (DRHV76A)
FROM:    J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Rob,
Why you devil, you! Who'd have thunk it?

                        Jacqueline 


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:10 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04  2:33 PM

TO:      J HEYDENRYCH   (WWKF55B)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Jacqueline:

         I believe you CAN be too careful.


             Kim \ who enjoys pushing the envelope
                    once in a while


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:10 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04  2:42 PM

TO:      ROB KILLIAN   (DRHV76A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Hi, Rob:

     Since we live in a townhouse, I doubt we will be doing
it on the front porch.:-) Thanks for the suggestion.


          Kim \ who thanks you for the compliment


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:11 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04  4:53 PM

TO:      KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kim;
 What kind of roof do you have?
 Or do you have a tent?



bonnie (back home again...)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:12 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04  8:56 PM

TO:      BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Bonnie: Welcome Back!

            Roof???? Now that's an interesting idea!
            I don't know, I havn't been up there.
            No, we don't have a tent. I suppose we
            could rent one.
                   Kim \ keep those ideas coming


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/04/93        11:21 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       BRPG31B
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/04/1993


All

So while we are on the subjest, check out this old poem of
mine;

No Secrets
      >>>>>>>>>>
The dewy grass is the flesh of a woman
Wet primordial virginal sensuous
She rides me close
Against black satin with stars

For love of life the seed fly forth to certain death
A gambit for glory, a chance for earth and dew and green
Suspended in the void
From this paroxysm of joy

A sudden return reborn to walk on rock again
In endless search of clever ways to push this dirt around
And yet in the wet glimmer
Of a tender green blade is a recollection of worlds
And worlds beyond worlds
Beyond words


                   digging in the dirt
                                       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/05/93         9:10 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/04 11:29 PM

TO:      KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kim;
  Well, how about midnight canoe on one of our many lakes
around here?


 bonnie (want any more ideas?)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/05/93         9:12 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/05  2:22 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus --
  What a wonderful poem!  I'm downloading for permanent
record.

  By the way, no one has warned poor Kim to watch out for
ants and sand and very happy homeless peeping toms.
                           the very practical Cindy


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/05/93         9:26 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       DSMG69A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/05/1993


Rebecca

Here is a blunt and unsophisticated explanation for the
apostacy.  Jesus taught important truths about religion.
Later, people changed these teachings in order to gain
power, wealth, and prestige.
                     >>>>>>>>
Mormons believe that Joseph restored the original teachings,
as they were given to the apostles from Jesus.

On evolution, this is a subject about which Mormons have
widely divergent opinions.  The Authorities, in the past,
have taught that evolutionary theory is inconsistent with
the scriptures.  The issue is kind of complex.  Classical
Mormon thought on the creation is at odds with what is
thought of as creationism today.

We can discuss any of these issues further, if you like. pro


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/05/93         9:42 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       DSMG69A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/05/1993


Rebecca

Thanx for the compliments!  People just don't realize how
big and complex Mormonism is, on the whole.  Make sure that
you check out the Mormo{Wiccan subject in a few days.  I am
going to be demonstrating that there really isn't a line
between Mormonism and Wicca at all.  Many of their rituals
are virtually identical.  Paganism isn't any great leap for
Mormons.  It is just a matter of re-examining the religion
from a slightly different perspective.

I just love the contributions you have made to this subject.
You have made it much more interesting and helpful.  I hope
you hang out a little while longer.

                    proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:19 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/05 11:05 AM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    KATHLEEN MCGUIRE   (FKSP88B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy,
  You haven't been there in a while, have you?  Because of
the rise in attacks on students, the paths are now too well
lit.
  Actually, Andy and I found a place up near Bridal Veil
Falls.  There are also a few places along the railroad
tracks in our part of town.            -Kathleen


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:19 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/05  9:02 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Proclus  re:  wicca/pagan v. Mormonism

   Hear, hear!  It resonants as absolutely true.  Can't wait
to read your stuff.
                           Cindy


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:20 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/05  9:45 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Mike:

          That's beautiful!! Thanks for sharing!!
                  Very sensuous!!!

                      Kim \ wandering if you have
                             any more gems


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:23 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/05  6:04 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Since proclus has told me he'll be posting some parallels
tween mormons and Wiccans in the Mormo}Wiccan subject
someday soon, I thought I'd jump in and share something
purely pagan with you.
  The following list is from a pamphlet obtained by The
Aquarian Tabernacle, a retreat for non-conventional
religions. Their description of the ideals of paganism....
1- The idea that divinity is immanent (internal) as well as
transcendant (external).
2- The belief that divinity is just as likely to manifest
itself as female.
3- A belief in the multiplicity of "gods" and "goddesses"
whether as individual deities or as facets of archetypes.
4- A respect and love for nature as divine in Her own right.
5- A distaste for monlithic religious organizations and a
distrust of messiahs and gurus.
6- The firm conviction that human beings were meant to lead
lives filled with joy, love, pleasure and humor. (The
traditional western concepts of sin, guilt, and divine
retribution are seen as sad misunderstandings of natural
growth experiences).
7- A simple set of ethics and morality based on the evidence
of actual harm to other people and all living things.
8- The knowledge that with proper training and intent, human
minds and hearts are fully capable of performing all the
magic and miracles they are ever likely to need.
9- A belief in the importance of celebrating the solar,
lunar and other cycles of our lives.
10- A minimum amount of dogma and a maximum amount of
eclecticism.
11- A strong faith in the ability of people to solve their
current problems on all levels, public and private.
12- A strong commitment to personal and universal growth,
evolution, and balance.
13- An awareness that if they are to achieve any of their
goals, they must practice what they preach.

  Well folks, those are the highlights. I'd be happy to mail
you the pamphlet, if you're interested. I posted it because
many of you seem to be looking for a solid definition of
What Is Pagan? To define it rigidly defies what paganism is
all about, but I hope this list helps you with the soul
searching.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:24 PM

Any comments?

                        -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:26 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/05  9:11 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Rebecca --
   More confirmation of kindred souls!  One of the goals
about avoiding dogma in organized religion could be more
specific about avoiding hierarchy and rooting out the
internal patriarchy, but that's just my personal quest (not
meaning to be critical, I just always have to add my two
bits worth.  I'd love the pamphlet.          Cindy


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:27 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/05  9:57 PM

TO:      CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Cindy,
  Ha! I like your additions, but something tells me it might
scare away a few folks, y'know, the ones who call us
femi-nazis and what not. I'll send you the pamphlet just as
soon as I get your address. I could type it out through
e-mail, but there's other stuff besides what I posted that
you might find interesting. Zap me some info!  -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:28 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/06  2:31 PM

TO:      REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Rebecca: Thanks for the list of basic Pagan philosophy. It
sounds like I am closer to believing in paganism than I
thought. Would you mind sending me the pamplet as well? I
can E-mail you my address.

              Kim \ one who has paganist leanings


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/07/93         8:28 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/06  5:14 PM

TO:      KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
FROM:    REBECCA BOSTICK   (DSMG69A)
SUBJECT: MORMO(PAGANS

Kim,
 Glad you're interested. E-mail me the address, I'd be happy
to send it along.
          -Rebecca


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/08/93        11:58 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       DSMG69A
SUBJECT:  MORMO(PAGANS
DATE:     05/08/1993


Rebecca

As some Mormons may dismiss any similarity of our doctrines
to paganism, I'd just like to push the point home.  The fact
is that Mormon doctrine contains complimentary teachings
that compare favorably with almost every item on your list.
1)  While Mormons beleive in only transcendent deities, they
do feel that everything is alive.  Philosophers call this
doctrine hylozooism, the universe is alive.  The earth
itself is personified in the feminine in Mormon doctrine.
While, She is not considered a Goddess (yet), She is
considered ALIVE.  Hail Gaia!

2) The Mormon pantheon includes a Goddess.

3) Mormons beleive that there are an infinite number of gods
and goddesses.  Within Mormonism, this doctrine is called
"the plurality of Gods".  There is, as yet, no official
discussion of archetypes, although the heady, intellectual
authors treat it at length.

4) Nature is not considered divine in Mormonism.  The case
is similar to point 1.

5) Mormonism contains a monolithic church structure, but it
is not that simple.  I will discuss this at length, if
anyone wants to hear it.  Mormons do not have charismatic
leaders (gurus).  Personal revelation, on an individual
basis, is a watch word.

6) "Men are that they might have joy." Joseph Smith.  The
purpose of life on Earth is to give us experience.

7) Ethics is no simple matter for Mormons.  Too bad.  (I
look to Thelema for my ethics).

8) Mormons are Perfectibilists.  People may attain all the
powers of Deity.
more?
             proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/09/93         9:54 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/09 12:31 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CINDY LE FEVRE   (XXVV32C)
SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS

Banned in 1978????!!!!!  I'm an old fogey enough to have
been endowed long before that.  I don't remember ever being
able to prayer circle out of the temple.  Boy, was I in la-
la land then or what?
  I am very interested in more details.  Was it a true
circle or did they indicate the four directions and elements
or any fascimile thereof?  Did there need to be an equal
number of both sexes, or only one sex?

Tell me, tell me more.

                      Cindy\who adores the Goddess
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