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Quinn's New Book1
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PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93         7:04 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23 12:30 PM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

When was the story dated?  I haven't seen the article in our
local press.  The recent signature book, 'Women and
Authority - re-emerging Mormon Feminism,' dedited by Maxine
Hanks has the essay by Quinn and it is quite interesting.

danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93         7:10 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23  4:30 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

  Oh, you WOULD make me go dig through the papers! All
right. It's an Associated Press report by one Vern Anderson,
and the Chicago Tribune entitled it, "Book says original
Mormon doctrine backed women priests."
  D. Michael Quinn (identified only as "a Mormon" who has
written "a new book about the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints") says, "there is compelling documentary
evidence that Smith gave women priesthood power in the
temple 'endowment' ritual in which women are anointed to be-
come queens and priestesses. 'It's an explosive issue,'
Quinn said, particularly at a time when church leaders face
growing pressure from Mormon feminists [isn't that an oxy-
moron?] for a more active role in a faith dominated by its
male priesthood...Quinn said there is no evidence a woman
ever was ordained to a specific priesthood office...but in
the early church there was a clear distinction between
priesthood power--available to women in the temple endowment
--and priesthood office...It wasn't until the 20th century
that Mormon leaders completely backed away from the idea
that women held the priesthood, Quinn said. In doing so,
they relied on official histories that deleted evidence or
changed meanings in 'documents which were detailed and ex-
plicit in their original form.'"
  NOW do you have any thoughts/comments to share with the
class?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93         7:12 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23  5:56 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Hey,
  I know Maxine Hanks!!!!   It has to be the same person!!
We were both early members and "founders" of that lefist BYU
organization Response (peace and human rights organization)
in 1983 and 84.  She was working as a writer and editor at
BYU and a "feminist" and self described active inactive
Mormon.  I liked her alot even though we were at times on
different poles of our organization's "ideology".  I was
considered the conservative who thought that education was
the purpose of our organization, she was the liberal that
thought action (like prayer virgils, protests, civil
disobedience) was the purpose.  But that is exaggerating the
difference a bit.   Anyway,  it has to be the same person!
I would love to talk to her again.    Maybe I should get
that book and find an address.
  Sorry, just thinking out loud.  You wouldn't happen to
have an address would you?
                               ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93         7:15 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23  5:59 PM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    JAMES PETERSEN   (XWWG12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Bryan, what fun!
   This information can be found in a book "The Women of
Nauvoo" by Holztapfel. When the N. Temple was completed,
Joseph selected about 60 people [24 married couples and 12
singles] to receive their endowments. Emma was charged with
providing the endowments for the women, and some of the
endowments were done in the Smith residence. Joseph was
apparently afraid of the pending attempt on his life, and
the desire of anti-Mormon sentiment which hoped that his
death would extinguis the religious movement. These sixy
people were know as the "Quorum of the Annointed." It was
then their job to endow as many others as possible.
   [Aside: when washing, annointings and sealings are done
in the temples today, women temple workers perform these
ordinances for the women--that has always raised the
interesting question of whether these women temple workers
have the "priesthood" in order to perform these
ordinances--there are some interesting answers from lots
of folks when you dig into this issue--my PERSONAL belief is
that they certainly do exercise priesthood authority
regarding these ordinances.]
   Anti-LDS people heard about the "quorum of the Annointed"
group. Joseph instructed them to remove and bury or destroy
their garments because he was afraid that the mobs would
look for those with garments, and torture or kill them in an
attempt to "behead" the church. That is also one reason
Joseph did not have his garments on when he was killed--he
didn't want to mobs to discover them, and then go looking
for others who wore them--with the intent to kill them.
   After Joseph's murder, Brigham accelerated the temple
work. As soon as someone had their endowments, they were
sent away so as to scatter the endowed members of the church
and make it impossible for the mobs to destroy the leaders
and other faithful members.
   The Quorum of the Annointed would often meet in the store
on Saturday night, where they would make garments and temple
clothing, sing hymns, and have testimony meetings.
   So, my personal conclusion is that there have been times
when women have had priesthood powers for specific reasons
involving temple ordinances, and there may still be such
powers granted for specific temple purposes today.
   I have heard the reasoning about why female temple
workers don't have it, and those who hold that view are
certainly free to express it and its reasons.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93         7:16 PM



Thanks for the article.
BTW, my wife detests me talking about women and the
priesthood--oh well, there certainly is a lot of room for
personal ideas in this church--despite what others might
think.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93         8:13 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       JHCC40A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/23/1993


Bryan

This thread is amazing.  Bryan, I disagree with Trey on this
one.  This issue cuts to the core of the modern Church.
Yet, all the Mormons are giving it positive press.  Let me
tell you, you could not possibly give too much info
regarding it.  I cannot tell you how astounded I was when
Andy and I discovered this information last summer in
STRANGERS IN PARADOX.  Now that Quinn has gotten behind it,
I guess the Toscano's were right.  Well, we've been posting
related info since last summer.  If you want to run with
this, I'm with you all the way.

dance, dance, dance!

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93         8:19 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       XWWG12A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/23/1993


James

The Anointed Quorum was a prayer circle group.  In the days
of Joseph, these groups included women.  There was no "to
become such" delimiter on the temple blessings.  Men and
women were actually "anointed to be kings and queens,
priests and priestesses", literally.  It is difficult to
avoid hyperbole when describing the blessings that flowed
from these groups.  I was getting ready to post this in
PAGAN BOOTS, but interest seemed to be declining.  You can
read all about it in Quinn's article, "Latter-day Saint
Prayer Circles", that is, if I don't post all of it myself
immediately!

spirit of Elijah

proclus
                        btw>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BTW, my wife also shrinks from discussions of this type.
She considers the promises made to women to be very real,
and very sacred.  When I pointed out the magnitude of the
promises made to women, and the feminine aspects of the
endowment, she laughed at me and asked me why I had been
sleeping through the ceremony all these years.  She then
unveiled the Goddess.  I have never recovered from this
experience.  I hope I never do!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93        11:15 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23  8:38 PM

TO:      WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Trey, the back of the anthology states that Maxine is a free
lance researcher, writer, and editor residing in SLC.  She
was previously employed by the Univ. of Utah, BYU, and the
MTC.  She serves on the advisory boards of the Assoc. of
Utah Publishers, 'Network' magazine, and the Utah Historic
Trails Consortium.  She is a 1992 Research Fellow, Utah
Humanities Council and is completing a degree in Women's
Studies at the Univ. of Utah.  Besides the introduction and
editing she also contributed an article titled 'Sister
Missionaries and Authority.'  The book is a recent release
from Signature and costs $19.95.  I enjoyed the volume and I
think that you may as well....




                              danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93        11:18 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23  9:32 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    JAMES PETERSEN   (XWWG12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Michael,
  I'm wondering if the Annointed Quorum and the Quorum of
the Annointed are two different groups? Need to look into
that. The information I heard was that is was a specific
group appointed by Joseph to preside over the disemination
of the endowment.
   BTW, I'm sure you know, but Brigham Young held a
number of prayer circles out in the open as they crossed the
plains for the first time to SL. The brethren who were
apostles and Brigham [don't know if any women came along]
would go off to a nearby bluff, don their temple clothing,
and pray in the prayer circle.

     Well, now all the anti's are probably just drooling as
we post this stuff--thinking that we're certainly showing
how foolish all this stuff is. Unfortunately, they seldom
see beyond their negative agendas, and have little
appreciation for the wonderful tapestry this all weaves.
Like your stuff. Keep it up. Please, post away!!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93        11:21 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23 10:00 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM



                     Tell me more!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/23/93        11:21 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/23 10:00 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM



  AND, by the way...how do you find out if someone (like Mr.
Quinn, for instance) has been or is in danger of being ex'd?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:44 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  7:50 AM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    JAMES PETERSEN   (XWWG12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Bryan,
   I think she thinks I'm "getting out in front" on the
issue--and, as a convert from Methodism, she really doesn't
care if she has the priesthood. She was glad to get away
from the politics that were swarming into the Methodist
church--and she kind of likes the LDS church just the way it
is.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:45 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  7:54 AM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Thank you very much Dan,

   Its her, and I am definately going to get the books and
try to contact her.   Sounds interesting and I would love to
talk to her again.
                       ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:46 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  8:14 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Proclus,
   What?! Living here in the "cradle of the restoration"
surely makes one miss out on all the goings on in "Zion"!
   So what is this all about then?   Here in this distant
stake of Zion we are in the dark as to what is explosive in
Zion.  I guess the shrapnel has hit here yet.   I NEED to
start subscribing to more LDS periodicals!!  ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:47 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  8:14 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Wait,
  I just remembered,    you live in Boston don't you?  How
do you here of all these things?    Am I living in a
sheltered Ward?   I really need to start getting out!

                              ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:48 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  8:25 AM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    MARK NICHOLS   (DHFK98A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

  Being an "endowed" member of the LDS church myself, I fail
to see what all the fuss is about.  If there is anything new
or startling here in your article., it went completely over
my head...

Sorry.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:48 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  8:39 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Proclus,
   POST!! POST!! POST!!

                 ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:54 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24 10:54 AM

TO:      BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Professor Quinn begins by stating that for 150 yrs. Mormon
women have performed sacred ordinances in the Church.  Every
person who has received the LDS temple endowment knows that
women perform for other women the 'initiatory ordinances' of
washing and anointing.  Fewer know that LDS women also
performed ordinances of healing from the 1840s until the
1940s. Yet every Mormon knows that men who perfom temple
ordinances and healing ordinances must have the Melchizedek
priesthood.  Women are no exception.
  Quinn continues that two weeks after Joseph organized the
Female Relief Society he announced his intention to confer
the priesthood on women.  On Mar. 30, 1842 he told them that
'the Society should move according to the ancient
Priesthood' and that he was 'going to make of this Society a
kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day - as in Paul's day.'
  In printing the original minutes of the prophet's talk
after his death, the official History of the Church omitted
Joseph's first use of the word 'Society' and changed the
second 'Society' to 'Church.'  These two alterations
according to Quinn changed the entire meaning of Joseph's
original statement.  More recently in April of 1992,
President of the Seventy Loren C. Dunn removed even these
diminished statements from a display in the LDS Museum of
Church History and Art saying he could not justify them to
his superiors (SL Tribune 11 Apr. 1992, A-10)
  On April 28, 1842, Joseph returned to this subject and
told the women of the Society that 'the keys of the kingdom
are about to be given to them that they may be able to
detect everything false, as well as to the Elders.'  The
keys 'to detect everything false' referred to the signs and
tokens used in the 'true order of prayer,' still practiced
in LDS temples.  Then Joseph said, 'I now turn the key to
you in the name of God, and this society shall rejoice, and
knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time.'
For 19th century LDS women, Joseph's words were prophecy and
inspiration to advance spiritually, intellectually, socially
professionally, and politically.
  Mormon women did not request priesthood - Joseph would
soon confer it on them as part of the restoration of the
gospel.   His private journal, called the Book of the Law
of the Lord, specified the priesthood promise in his
instructions to the women on Ap. 28, 1842: 'gave a lecture
on the pries[t]hood shewing [sic] how the Sisters would come
in possession of the privilegs & blessings & pngts of the
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:54 PM

priesthoood & that signs should follow them. such as
healing the sick casting out devils &c. & that they might
attain unto these blessings. by a virtuous life &
conversation & diligence in keeping all the commandments.'
Joseph clearly intended that Mormon women in 1842 understand
their healings were to be 'pngts of the priesthood,' not
simply ministrations of faith.


if you would like I will continue....






danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:58 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24 12:37 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    MELISSA GATES   (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Yes, let's hear more from the Quinn article.



                        all ears...


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         5:59 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  1:28 PM

TO:      MELISSA GATES   (DWRH70C)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Continuing, Professor Quinn says that Aposlte Oaks observed
in a 1992 general conference talk that, 'No priesthood keys
were delivered to the Relief Society.  Keys are conferred on
individuals, not organizations.'  The first Presidency and
Quorum of the Twelve as organizations are not even exempt
from the limitation he [Oaks] describes for the Relief
Society.  Elder Oaks noted that 'priesthood keys were
delivered to the MEMBERS of the First Presidency and the
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, not to any organizations.'
  In a footnote to this passage, Quinn states that in
quoting from the Nauvoo Relief Society minutes, Elder Oaks
does not cite Joseph's promise "to make of this Society a
'kingdom of priests' as in Enoch's day."  On the same page,
Elder Oaks also describes Joseph's instructions about women,
'laying on hands to bless one another' as though this
referred to the initiatory ordinances of the endowment
without acknowledging that healing was the actual context of
the prophet's remarks.  Then with no mention that Mormon
women performed healing ordinances from the 1840s to the
1940s, Elder Oaks continues: "During the century that
followed, as temples became accessible to most members,
'proper order' required that these and other sacred
practices be confined within those temples."  (Ensign 22,
May 1992).  Quinn charitably concludes that Elder Oaks
remarks were unintentional mistakes in the use of historical
evidence.
  Now according to Quinn, the conferral of priesthood on
INDIVIDUAL women occurred through what Joseph and associates
called the 'Holy Order' or 'Anointed Quorum' (men and women
who had received the priesthood endowment).  On May 4, 1842,
six days after his remarks to the Relief Society, Joseph
introduced nine men to the endowment.  The following year,
on July 28, 1843, Presiding Patriarch Hyrum Smith, an
original member of the Holy Order, blessed on Leonora Cannon
Taylor: "You shall be blesst [sic] with your portion of the
Priesthood which belongeth to you, that you may be set apart
for your Anointing and your induement [endowment].'
  Two months earlier Joseph and his wife Emma were the first
couple to be 'sealed' in marriage for time and eternity on
May 28, 1843.  Then in September, Hyrum the Presiding
Patriarch blessed one Olive G. Frost, one of Joseph's plural
wives, that 'you shall be blessed with a knowledge of the
mysteries of God as well as the fullness of the Priesthood.'
  The men who received the Holy Order endowment in 1842 did
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:00 PM

not constitute a fully organized 'quorum' until a woman was
initiated in 1843.  At 7 p.m. on Sept. 28 1843, Joseph was
'by common consent and unanimous vote chosen president of
the Quorum' by eleven other previously endowed men.  Next,
Emma became the first woman to receive priesthood and its
fullness.  In a footnote citation, Quinn states that the
'Meetings of anointed Quorum Journalizings' show that in
six meeting from May 26 to the morning of Sept 28, 1843 the
endowed men were consistently called a 'Council.'  This
document's first refernce to 'Quorum' is for the evening
meeting on Sept. 28.





danny....


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:05 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  2:26 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

As newly sustained president of the Anointed Quorum, Joseph
administered the initiatory ordinances and priesthood
endowment to his wife in an upper room of the Nauvoo Mansion
The record of minutes shows that at this same meeting,
Joseph and Emma also became the first couple to receive the
'second anointing' or 'fullness of the priesthood.'  By this
ceremony they were each 'annointed & ordained to the highest
& holiest order of the priesthood.'  Later church historians
in Utah deleted Emma's name from the 1843 description of the
prophet's 'second Anointing of the Highest & Holiest order.'
  However, church historians were more direct about the
second anointing for Hyrum and Mary Fielding Smith.  Apostle
and Church Historian Wilford Woodruff specifically called
the ordinance a 'second anointing,' and the History of the
Church describes the ordinace as: 'My brother Hyrum and his
wife were blessed ordained and anointed.'
  Even in the 19th century church publications usually
called the second anointing by such euphemisms as 'fullness
of the priesthood,' 'higher ordinances,' 'higher blessings,'
or 'second blessings.'  However, LDS publications in both
the 19th and 20th centuries sometimes identified the
ordinances by its actual name: second anointing.
  Of the relationship between the endowment's initiatory
anointing and the second anointing, Heber Kimball explained:
'You have been anointed to be kings and priests [or queens
and priestesses], but you have not been ordained to it yet,
and you have got to get it by being faithful.'  In the
second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained 'King
and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for
Time and through out all Eternity.'
  Thus Emma began the fulfillment of the prophet's promise
to make the Relief Society 'a kingdom of priests.'  She was
anointed to become a 'queen and priestess' in the initiatory
ordinance of the endowment and was ordained to the fulness
of those offices by the second anointing.  First counselor
Sidney Rigdon later (1868) commented on this event: 'Emma
was the one to whom the female priesthood was first given.'
  A common misunderstanding claims that women receive
priesthood only through temple marriage or through the
second anointing - both of which a husband and wife must
receive together.  However, such was not the view expressed
by many of the Anointed Quorum's original members, who
learned about the endowment directly from Joseph Smith.
  Brigham Young's 1843 diary associated the endowment of
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:05 PM

women with receiving priesthood.  On Oct. 29, 1843, he noted
that Thirza Cahoon, Lois Cutler, and Phebe Woodworth were
'taken into the order of the priesthood.'  That was the day
day those three women individually received their
endowments.  They did not join with their husbands to
receive the second anointing until Nov. 12 & 15 respectively
When his own wife received the endowment on Nov. 1, 1843,
Brigham wrote: 'Mary Young admitted in to the highest
orderer [order of] Preasthood [sic].'  She did not receive
the second anointing with Brigham until three weeks later.Quinn's New Book2
=================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:11 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  3:08 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

I assume the answer is yes....

  On Feb. 3, 1844, William Clayton's diary noted that he
'was permitted to the ordinance of washing and anointing,
and was received into the Quorum of Priesthood.'  On that
same occasion Jane Bicknell Young was also endowed and
received 'into the Quorum of the Priesthood.'  The prophet's
secretary later noted: 'All the first quorum with one or two
exceptions were present both male and female.'
  Joseph Smith's uncle John Smith subsequently pronounced a
patriarchal blessin on Maria Turnbow which specified that it
was through the endowment ceremony that a woman receives the
priesthood: 'Thou shalt have an Endowment in the Lord's
house [and] be clothed with the Power of the Holy Priesthood
[to] be able to redeem thy fathers house.'
  Bathsheba W. Bibler Smith shared this view.  She entered
Joseph's Anointed Quorum in Dec. 1843. "I have always been
pleased that I had my endowments when the Prophet lived.  He
taught us the true order of prayer.  I never like to hear a
sermon without hearing sonething of the Prophet, for he gave
us everything, every order of the priesthood.  He said he
had given the sisters instructions that they could
administer to the sick and he wanted to make us, as the
women were in Paul's day, 'A kingdom of priestesses.'"
  In Feb. 1844 stake patriarch John Smith told an LDS woman
named Louisa Jackson that she had a right to priesthood from
her birth. "Thou art of the blood of Abraham thru the Loins
of Manasseh & lawful heir to the Priesthood.  Jackson was
not among the elite Mormon women who received the
endowment before the opening of the Nauvoo Temple in Dec.
1845.  Referring to her eventual sealing and second
anointing, the patriarch added that Jackson 'shall possess
it [priesthood] in common with thy companion.'  Jackson's
blessing showed that any Mormon woman had a birthright to
priesthood which depended on no man.
  John Smith's blessings to Maria Turnbow and Louisa Jackson
clearly show that a Mormon woman receives the priesthood for
herself through the endowment.  A Mormon woman and a Mormon
man recieve the higher priesthood blessings only as a couple
through the sealing of marriage and through the second
anointing (or 'fullness).  As Apostle Talmage wrote: 'True,
ther are certain of the higher ordinances to which an
unmarried woman cannot be admitted, but the rule is equally
in force as to a bachelor.' (House of the Lord, p.94).
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:11 PM

  Uncle John Smith's church standing and experience make it
difficult to regard him as misinformed when he affirmed that
there is a female birthright to priesthood.  A special
counselor in the First Presidency since 1837, John Smith
became a member of the Anointed Quorum on Spt 28, 1843, the
same day his nephew Joseph received the second annointing.
From then until he blessed Louisa Jackson, John Smith
received four months of private instructions from the
prophet about the Holy Order of the Priesthood during the
frequent meetings of the Anointed Quorum.







danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:14 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  3:55 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

  John Smith also described the ancient dimension of this
female birthright to priesthood.  In his blessing to Carolin
Cottam in Mar. 1853, he referred to the 'Priesthood which
Abraham sealed upon his daughters.'  He also blessed
Elizabeth Bean in May 1953: 'I seal upon you all the
blessings of Abraham, Isacc, and Jaboc; and all the
priesthood that was sealed upon the daughters of Joseph in
the land of Egypt.'  He made a similar statment in another
female blessing in Nov. 1853.  According to John Smith, a
female priesthood contiued throughout the centuries until
the sojourn of the 12 tribes in Egypt.
  According to 1st counselor Heber Kimball in 1857, Jewish
women continued to have the priesthood in the early
Christian era.  'Was every woman qualified to raise that
child [Jesus]?  No.  You will find that Mary was of the
Royal Priesthood, which is after the order of God.  Like her
ancestors, Mary of Nazareth alo held the 'Royal Priesthood'
which is now called Melchizedek.
  On Dec. 7, 1845 Kimball had recorded the names of 23 men
and 19 women who 'are members of the Holy Order of the Holy
Presthood [sic] having Recieved [sic] it in the Life time of
Joseph and Hirum, the Prophets.'  Of these 19 women, 3 had
not yet received the second anointing.  In the temple a week
later, Kimball's diary noted that Brigham Young 'appointed
W.W. Phelps and P.P. Pratt to instruct the brethren and
sisters more fully into the nature and importance of the
blessings and powers of the Holy Priesthood which they had
received.'   Kimball's observations, according to Quinn,
that women received the priesthood through the endowment
are significant because he usually expressed misogynous
views. (see On the Potter's Wheel, p. 174 & Heber C. Kimball
Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer p. 234-36).
  Yet another member of Joseph Smith's Anointed Quorom,
Joseph Young, also affirmed that LDS women received the
Melchizedek priesthood when they were endowed and not
through the sealing or second anointing with their husbands.
Young in a blessing to Zina Young Card in 1878 said: 'These
blessings are yours, the blessings and power according to
the holy Melchizedek Priesthood you received in your
Endowments, and you shall have them.'  Young had been senior
president of the First Council of Seventy since 1837 and an
ordained patriarch since 1873.  Zina was his niece and
Brigham Young's daughter.  In 1877, Edward Tullidge's 'Women
of Mormondom' reflected the view expressed by general
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:14 PM

authorities for 35 years: 'The Mormon women, as well as men,
hold the priesthood.'
  Several other early LDS general authorities held similar
views about women and priesthood.  However, they were more
tentative than Joseph and those who received the prophet's
personal instruction about the endowment.  However, Joseph
Smith's 1842 promise, Hyrum Smith's patriarchal blessings in
1843, Brigham Young's 1843 diary, William Clayton's 1844-45
diary, Heber Kimball's 1845 diary, and patriarchal blessings
by John Smith from 1844 on and by Joseph Young in 1878 all
show that LDS women receive the Melchizedek priesthood
through the endowment alone....


there is quite a bit more...


                               danny & his tired fingers


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:20 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       FVNM12A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/24/1993


Bonnie

I'm sending a note to Xandy about this thread right now.

the Dalin Oakes committee of disinformation

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93         6:20 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  5:17 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Dan:
 By the time I read your post, you had gone on without me,
and have posted more concerning this subject.  Sort of a
time warp here...

  Where is Andy?  He likes things of this nature?
bonnie


------------
WRITE A MESSAGE                                               01/24/93
---------
 SEND TO:  FKSP88A
 SUBJECT:  Second Anointing

Andy

You'ld better pop over to Bryan's ANTI MORMONISM subject and look at a
thread on Quinn's new book.  Dan just unloaded the best of a recent
article by Quinn too.  Everything is in the open now.

proclus



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:44 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  8:09 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Proclus et al,

   I'm here.  Mike, I think that Quinn has been on this
women/priesthood thing longer than Toscano.  It's just that
Quinn had his position at BYU to think about, so he left it
to others [Toscano] to make the truly obnoxious moves.
   But now that Quinn has cut himself loose from "The Zoo"
he has become bolder.
   BTW, you will love the title of Quinn's offering in the
book WOMEN AND AUTHORITY.  "Mormon Women Have Had The
Priesthood Since 1843."  No beating around the bush there!
   Another good one is "Put On Your Strength O Daughters of
Zion: Claiming Priesthood and Knowing the Mother" by
Margaret Merrel Toscano.
   Ooooh.  I get  ** woozy **  just thinking about it!
   Want a copy of the book Mike??
                                         \/ Andrew
 <>                             /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:45 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  9:13 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Hi Andy, how's the snow?  So you have the book and I have it
as well...tell me what do you think of that article on page
683 about neo-nazi mormon traffic engineers and their
attitude toward women as being so much back fill?   Hard to
imagine you know who being so infamous at such an early
age....
                                      danny....darting about


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:47 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  9:49 PM

TO:      MARK NICHOLS   (DHFK98A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM



  Well, it was new to me, Mark. That is why I sought elucid-
ation here, at the keyboards of the Righteous Enlightened.

             bryan // poor ignorant gentile


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:48 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  9:56 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM



   Can you or Dan tell me when Mormon women got booted (or
whatever) out of the priesthood? This is fascinating!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:49 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  4:37 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Continuing along with Quinn and by the way Proclus, Margaret
Toscano's essay 'Put on Your Strength O Daughters of Zion:
Claiming Priesthood and Knowing the Mother' immediately
follows the Quinn article but I'm unsure as to whether to
attach any real importance to the sequence...perhaps Trey
can ask Maxine Hanks about that...
                                                     >>>>
   Quinn notes that the local patriarchs in pioneer Utah
also referred to women's priesthood rights.  He gives an
example from Charles W. Hyde, a stake president and last
mand admitted to the Nauvoo Quorum, blessing and another
from patriarch Ola N. Liljenquist.  The latter is interestin
since it indicated that this birhtright is by premortal
foreordination.  According to Quinn Liljenquist made
explicit what is implied in Mormon theology - that women
were also forechosen to priesthood authority before birth.
Mormon scripture's most detailed view of the premortal world
did not differentiate between men and women in the
forechoosing to authority - Abraham 3:22-23...females are
among 'all' God's intelligences and spirits who were noble,
good, and forechosen (or foreordained) to be leaders and to
receive authority.
  Currently for males this foreordination to authority is
fulfilled in LDS priesthood office.  For females this
foreordination is fuliflled in their receiving the
priesthood endowment and opportunities for church service.
  For those who marshal other proof texts that women do not
hold priesthood separate from their husbands Quinn cites a
1845 sermon from Brigham Young: they [LDS women] 'have no
right to meddle in the affairs of the Kingdom of God.
Outside the pale of this they have a right to meddle because
many of them are more sagacious & shrewd & more competent
[than men] to attend to things of financial affairs.' but
'they never can hold the keys of Priesthood apart from their
husbands.'
  Quinn avers that this earliest limitation on a woman's
ecclesiatical authority did not deny that endowed women
receive a conferral of Melchizedek priesthood.  Instead
Young first denies that women have any claim to
'administrative authority' within the church and secondly
a women cannot hold the keys of the Priesthood by herself,
for the reason that this right of presidency comes to women
only through the second anointing.
  These early statements by Young were not denials that
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:49 PM

Mormon women receive priesthood through the endowment but
rather the matter seems to hinge on women receiving the KEYS
of presidency with their husbands through the second
anointing.  This 'fullness of priesthood' confers on women
the right to rule and reign as eternal queens and
preistesses.
                            danny ... more later


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:53 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  5:19 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Skipping along here we read that as in Brigham's 1845
statement, church administrative powere is the real context
for all subsequent denials that women have priesthood.  If
women have priesthood, the often unexpressed fear goes, they
might challenge the administrative powers of males who have
been ordainded deacons, teachers, etc.  Conversely the
argument is that since women have not been ordained to one
of those offices, they do not have priesthood.  First
Presidency counselor Charles W. Penrose made this argument
specific in 1921: "Sisters have said to me sometimes, 'But I
hold the Priesthood with my husband.' 'Well,' I asked, 'what
office do you hold in the Priesthood.'  Then they could not
say much more.  The sisters are not ordained to any office
in the Priesthood."
  However, such reasoning ignores Joseph Smith's earliest
revelation defining the priesthood in D&C 84.  Ordained
offices are not the priesthood but only 'appendages' to the
priesthood.  According to an 1835 revelation, even the
apostleship is an appendage to the Melchizedek priesthood,
for 'all other authorities or offices in the church are
appendages to this priesthood' (107:5).
  Priesthood then exists independently of church offices but
church offices are appendages whcih cannot exist without the
priesthood.  As Church president J.F. Smith told general
conference, 'If an Apostle has any authority at all, he
derives if from the Melchisedek Priesthood...all the offices
in the Church are simply appendages to the Melchisedek
Priesthood, and grow out of it.'
  A women does not need an appendage or church office to
have priesthood.  According to Joseph's teachings to the
Relief Society and to the Anointed Quorum, a woman receives
Melchizedek priesthood when she receives the endowment.  The
confusion of priesthood office with priesthood has
characterized many contemporary discussions of women and
priesthood according to Quinn.
  However, just as counselors in the First Presidency were
'ordained' by Joseph, Emmas was 'ordained to expound the
Scriptures,' and her counselors were ordained to preside
over the Nauvoo Relief Society.  In the 19th century the
word 'ordain' was also used for appointing persons to
proselyting missions and to heal.  However, Quinn states
that he has found no evidence that Mormon men ever ordained
a woman to a specific priesthood office of the church.
  Thus the documents and leaders of early Mormonism affirm
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        10:53 PM

that women receive priesthood through the endowment.  New
revelation would only confirm this reality no create it.
However, unaware of the female priesthood theology in
Joseph's Anointed Quorum, current LDS presidents and
apostles regard new revelation as necessary to change a
20th century definition that is now regarded as doctrinal.
For example, Pres. Spencer Kimball announced in June 1978:
'We pray to God to reveal hsi mind and we always will, but
we don't expect any revelation regarding women and the
priesthood.'  This was just after his announcement of the
revelation authorizing the priesthood to men of black
African descent....





                   danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        11:00 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       MWRS12A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/24/1993


Dan

That June'78 statement by President Kimball was also one
month after prayer circle groups were finally and completely
banned within the Church.  I don't think it is settled at
all that the Brethen were unaware of these doctrines or
their implications for patriarchal authority. miffed proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        11:08 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       MWRS12A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/24/1993


Dan

I think it is tragic that the women of the Church must now
go skulking about, hiding their majesty.  This is obviously
not what Joseph intended.  It is easy to understand why the
Toscanos seem so forlorn.
                 saddened        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        11:13 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       KFVW57A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/24/1993


***Trey

I have to give the credit to Andy for making this
information available to me so early.  Every paper and book
that I quote was sent to me by him.  As for Andy, he lives
in the heart Gomorrah, the shadow of Bigamy Young
University.  What more can I say?  Thanx Andy.

Well, I have to take some credit too.  I'm the one that shot
Wilson, Leary, and Crowley in Andy's direction.  Quite a
pair aren't we?  It also seems that my new ward is not all
that sheltered.  I know the people that operate the New
England journal for Mormon feminists.  It's called EXPONENT.
I'm going to be getting a sample issue soon.

cyberpunks

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        11:19 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       XWWG12A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/24/1993


James

As far as I know the, the term "anointed quorum' only refers
to one kind of group.  It appears that in Joseph's final
days, the members anointed quorum were Joseph's most trusted
confidants.  It is arguable that they would have become the
ruling body of the Church.  First of all, Joseph began
consulting them in matters of Church government, in lieu of
the Twelve.  We have statements, like the one that you gave
us, which infer that the quorum of the anointed was the head
of the Church.  This is not surprising since these final
ordinances were thought of as the highest blessings that
exist.  Their authority was not based on any patriarchal
stamp of approval, but on celestial marriage and the second
anointing, a actualization of all that God has to offer
mortal men.  It seemed egalitarian and included women.  This
core group carefully began establishing new groups
throughout the Church.  It was the beginning of the heavenly
order on earth, but this was not to be.  Joseph died.  The
Corporate Church began.  Power was consolidated in the
Twelve and the idea of prayer circle groups was slowly
pushed into oblivion.... almost.  (The above information was
gleaned primarily from Quinn's prayer circle article and
STRANGERS IN PARADOX.)

Now, it is the age of information.  We are starting to
relearn what happened at Nauvoo.  It will not be brushed
under the rug.  History cannot be rewritten this time.  If
the Church does not choose to own this material in a
realistic and open way, they may alienate their best and
most promising minds.  When Andy and I found out about it,
last summer, we were frankly astounded.  Our view of the
Church was transformed, and this transformation hinged on
this new view of the prayer circle.  Hats off to the
Signature crowd for putting this vital material into the
popular Mormon psyche.  We will not allow our heritage to be
forgotten.

little mouse
                       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        11:22 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       DHFK98A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/24/1993


Mark

The startling information is not in the newspaper.  (Do you
think you'll really find any startling info in the paper?)
It's in the books and articles that we have been refering
to.  Have you read any of them?
            critique        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        11:43 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/24  5:59 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Good thing it's a slow sunday but this article is about 20
pages long so I wrap up here with the material about healing
and leave the rest for a later time.

  According to Quinn, from the 1890 Manifesto ostensibly
banning polygamy to the early 1900s, the First Presidency
and Quorum of the Twelve redefined many LDS doctrines.  The
relation of women to the priesthood endowment was only one
of these redefinitions.
  However, the First Presidency continued to authorize women
to anoint women for healing if only because of the church
practice of using consecreated oil directly on the affected
parts of the body.  In Dec. 1935 the Presiding Bishopric and
First Presidency discussed a report that Apostle Widtsoe had
instructed missionaries in Europe to 'anoint the head only.'
The presidency disagreed with this change and allowed the
older practices to continue.  But when men stopped anointing
various parts of men's bodies with consecrated oil for
healing, it became possible to exclude women from anointing
and blessing the sick.  That policy change did not become
final for another decade.  In 1946 Apostle J.F. Smith
informed the Relief Society general presidency that it was
no longer approved 'for sisters to wash and anoint other
sisters.'  Instead, he said that women should 'send for the
Elders of the Church to come and administer to the sick and
afflicted.'  Thus a century of Mormon women's sacred
ordinances no longer had the approval of the church's
hierarchy.  An era had officially ended.
  The BOM warned that pngts of the spirit such as healing
would die only through unbelief (Mormo. 10:8, 11, 19, 26).
LDS women have the same access to pngts of the spirit as men
and can exercise their faith in healing.  Anciently the
apostles tried to circumscribe the exercise of spiritual
pngts by condemning a person who healed the sick but who was
not a follower of Jesus.  Jesus answered their objection
with the words, 'Forbid him not; for he that is not against
us is for us.' (Luke 9:50)   Mormon men, according to Quinn,
need this reminded updated, 'Forbid her not, for she that is
not against us is for us.'  No woman needs a man's
permission to lay her hands on her child's head and utter a
blessing.  Whether by priesthood endowment or spiritual
pngt, an LDS woman may give a blessing to anyone, in or out
of her family, in or out of church.
  According to Quinn, to some LDS men this is a frightening
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/24/93        11:43 PM

prospect.  Several even reportedly threatened to kill a
devoted Mormon (SLC Mar 11, 1989) who recently suggested
that women should have the opportunity for ordination to
every priesthood office.  A death threat has no bearing on
what God confers on women, but it is, again according to
Quinn, unfortunate evidence of misogyny in modern Mormonism.
                                              >>>>>









danny....who will now go help the better half...


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:22 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  8:04 AM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Sarah, the whole point of Quinn's article is that Mormon
women who receive their temple endowments by definition or
tradition already hold the Melchizedek priesthood.  It is a
priesthood without office but a priesthood none the less.
As Quinn observes in his conclusion: for LDS women
Melchizedek priesthood does not come in stages of ordination
as with mormon men but rather in the temple endowment.
Historically LDS women also have received church authority
to exercise their Melchizedek priesthood power in behalf of
others.  The temple endowment has not changed in fundamental
ways since its introduction.  The endowment gives today
exactly what it conferred from 1842 to 1846.  During those
four years Joseph and those he endowed all affirmed that
women receive the Melchizedek priesthood when they receive
the endowment.  The documents of 19th century Mormon history
also indicate, according to Quinn, that women have been
heirs and recipients of the Melchizedek priesthood since the
days of biblical patriarchs.  Melchizedek priesthood
conferral has always been independent of the offices of the
LDS church.  Mormon women already have God's priesthood of
spiritual power.  Without asking permission they may draw on
the power of endowment.  However, it is necessary for
endowed women to receive permission of the church to use
their priesthood in church settings to administer the
sacrament, baptize, confirm, or administer temple
ordinances.
  I realize the nuances of this can be confusing but the
issue seems quite alive and the 'spider women' of the church
may yet eat their mates......                 danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:25 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  9:10 AM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    JAMES PETERSEN   (XWWG12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Bryan,
  Maybe they never did get booted. When women get their
endowments even today, they are clothed in the identical
robes of the holy priesthood as the men [the robes are on
public view in any LDS funeral service.] And, they are told
they can administer in the ordinances of the Aaronic and
Melch. priesthood. Seems to me that the power is there in
the endowment--but the power is dormant during this portion
of our earthly life. [sorry, I'm probably getting out in
speculation limbo here--just posting my own private
thoughts.] But, seeing my wife in the identical robes of the
Holy Priesthood in the temple gave me a whole different view
of our relationship.
   Any comments?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:27 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  6:04 PM

TO:      JAMES PETERSEN   (XWWG12A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM



  It sounds to ME (ignorant and obnoxious Gentile that I am)
as though Mormon women didn't get booted--they got WEASELED.
More shame to redound on the honchos...


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:28 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  7:50 PM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Bryan,
   Weasled pretty well sums it up.
   After Joseph Smith died and B. Young became defacto
leader of the church, his first move against the women was
to suspend their involvement in the Anointed Quorum.  He
later did away with the quorum altogether.
   Later, B.Y. did away with the Relief Society which, as
Dan has already pointed out, may have been intended to
prepare women for their share in the priesthood.
   The issue was then left to die a slow but quiet death
over the course of the next 40 or 50 years.

   All we were left with for years were the hintings from
the temple ceremony.  Then along comes D. Michael Quinn, the
master researcher, and his loud-mouth cohorts the Toscanos,
and suddenly the feminists are perking up and muttering,
"Hey!  Tell me more......."                \/ Andrew
                                           /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:31 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  8:46 PM

TO:      BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
FROM:    JAMES PETERSEN   (XWWG12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Bryan,
  Actually, the endowed LDS women I know are all perfectly
content with the symbols of the priesthood as shown to them
in the temple. It's all the non-LDS ladies who get in a real
snit about the whole thing. I've never figured out why
someone would be upset about LDS ladies not having active
priesthood powers when the upset one doesn't even believe
in the LDS priesthood in the first place.



P.S. Bonnie--not that I any kind of scientist, but recent
articles about astronomy talk about a type of "dark matter"
that cannot be seen, but appears to be spread throughout the
universe--apparently lots of physics calculation kept not
coming out right, until they factored in the mass and
presence of all this stuff they couldn't see. Maybe others
more scientific than I can expand.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:35 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  5:54 PM

TO:      C MARSTON (JR)       (KXBN51A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Charlie the citation in the footnote refers to a newspaper
article titled "Firmage threateneQuinn's New Book3
=================
Quinn's New Book3
-----------------
d after suggesting
priesthood for Women,' SLC Tribune, Mar. 11, 1989.  I have
no knowledge of the particulars of the incident.  Quinn also
cites the 'black widow Spider' remark of Harmon Rector of
the Seventy but tries to balance these with Spencer
Kimball's remarks against gender condescension: 'Our Sisters
do not wish to be indulged or to be treated condescendingly;
they desire to be respected and revered as our sisters and
our equals.  I mention these thing, my brethren because in
some situations our behavior is of doubtful quality.'
  Quinn's essay doesn't have the feel of a polemic.  He
presents the historical evidences to support his contentions
but also notes opposing evidences.  As he presents the
matter the stronger case seems for the time being that
Mormon women do have a priesthood but no office.   Buried in
the footnotes (#5) is a reference to a forthcoming book on
the LDS hierarchy, the officially published History of the
Church, and changes to the primary historical documents of
the Church.  If his last book was any indication then this
next volume will know doubt be front page news for a time.







                                                 danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:36 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  6:02 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
--------------------------------
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Proclus, it can only remain conjecture as to what Joseph
ultimately intended for the priesthood.  We can say with
some certainity what happened after his death and the
exodus.  Interestingly, the RLDS tradition has solved this
problem, albeit with some controversy, by the admission of
women to the priesthood.
                                       danny


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:37 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  6:07 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
--------------------------------
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Are you talking about Quinn's article about prayer circles?
I'm not up on that particular issue.  I've seen some of your
notes on the subject but to be honest the Wiccan
speculations struck me as being a bit wistful....


                                 danny...neo-wit


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:45 PM

FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:    RELIGION
TO:       MWRS12A
SUBJECT:  ANTI-MORMONISM
DATE:     01/25/1993


Dan

Yes,  Quinn and Toscano's prayer circle data dove tails very
nicely with the material you have posted.  I have posted it
to death.

The Wiccan parallels are NOT wistful.  There is virtual one
to one correspondence between the two sets of rituals.  Have
you looked at the Wiccan sources that we have described?

I don't have an explanation for the Wiccan parallels.
Perhaps this is why the field seems speculative.  It is not.
Check the documents.

               cone of power
                             proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/25/93        11:46 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/25  8:08 PM

TO:      DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
-----------------------------------
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISM

Danny,
   Just as an aside, guess what Quinn did his doctoral
dissertation on.......

   The LDS hierarchy.
                                           \/ Andrew,
                                           /\ deja vu.
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