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Xtians
======
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:45 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/26  5:10 PM

TO:      RONALD BOWER   (BRPG31A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS




                      HI RON!

                                proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:46 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/27  3:04 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS

Answer me, oh Proclus!  Sharest thou!!!


Ken (LDS)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:46 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28 12:23 PM

TO:      KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
FROM:    JOHN WISE   (RDCW86A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS

Ken--
  Being somewhat new to *P and all, I have no idea what this
"mormo" "wicca" "xtian" cra- er, uh, stuff, is.  Can you
fill me in?  (Thumbnail sketch, of course.)

 Not thinking he's going to like this at all,    JOHN


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:47 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28  5:15 PM

TO:      JOHN WISE   (RDCW86A)
FROM:    MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS

John... In time you'll see what some of our resident BB
people are into.

Matt in Mass.... Church fence sitter


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:47 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/28  7:49 PM

TO:      JOHN WISE   (RDCW86A)
FROM:    KENNETH WOZNY   (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS

John, Mr. Love is a "special" person.  Ask him what PROCLUS
means!  I think Xtian means "Christian".

Others, I don't know.

Ken (LDS)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         04/29/93         5:47 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    04/29  2:21 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    JOHN WISE   (RDCW86A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS

Okay, Mr. Love, what does "proclus" mean? And, from the tone
of your notes, it appears (at least superficially) that you
have an affinity for Satan.  Will you explain?

John


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        12:38 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       RDCW86A
SUBJECT:  MORMO{XTIANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


John

You may find Proclus in the on-line encyclopedia.  There is
also an article on Neoplatonism that is relevant to this
subject.  Check it out.  After you have read that you can
ask me questions about it.
                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Satan?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The tone of my notes reflects an affinity for Satan?  If
they do, you had better watch out for me.

Booo!

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/01/93        11:31 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       RDCW86A
SUBJECT:  MORMO{XTIANS
DATE:     05/01/1993


John

I'm amazed.  After two years, you are the only person to
ever come back with questions after that encyclopedia
ordeal.  To the questions;

Mormo is strictly a fifth avenue technique to catch the eye.
It's like Ronco peeler, or Stratocaster.  It is also a
tongue in cheek reference to the god Mormo.  Lavey informs
us that Mormo is god of the dead.  Maybe the most important
significance of the word is it's function as a linguistic
operator.  It merely denotes a person or thing associated
with Mormonism.

Xtianity refers to system of religious thought which is
associated with historical mainstream "Christianity".  Most
Mormons beleive that it is an apostate religion.  Andy is
often quick to express his view that it has little to do
with the actual religion of the the person Jesus Christ.
Others associate it with the Great and Abominable Church of
Mormon scripture.  In years past, I may have agreed with
many of these characterizations.  Now, I am not so sure. (Hi
Ron!)

Here is a freebie.  The logical operator "{" denotes
"contains".  Thus, Mormo{Bankers informs us that Mormonism
contains bankers.

I use the pseudonym proclus because I often think of myself
as if I were Proclus.  He and I seem to have quite a bit in
common.  I am definitely NOT the literal re-incarnation of
Proclus.

Why so many questions?  Are you going to bash me?

                  ~proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/02/93         6:37 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    05/02  2:39 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    JOHN WISE   (RDCW86A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS

Proclus--
  Heck no, I'm not going to bash you! It's just that the
only time I'd seen the word "Mormo" was in reference to
Lavey's "Satanic Bible"--so naturally I thought . . .
  And I thought "Xtians" might be some tongue-in-cheek spin
off from the shorthand "X-mas" that we see so often around
Christmastime--or that saying the word "Christ" was so
distasteful that the letter "X" had to be put in its place!
Isn't it amazing what the human mind can come up with?
Actually, I'd heard of Neo-Platonism before, and I even had
a sprinkling of it in a college course, but I'd never
connected it with Augustine.
  I apologize for my "suspicious" mind.  I would be
interested in seeing how you feel Mormonism, or religion in
general, relates, contrasts, or compares to Neo-Platonism.
You've probably explained these things quite a few times on
*P, so if you want to direct me to a book on the subject,
that's fine, too.        John -- Always Looking Around


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/02/93         6:41 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       RDCW86A
SUBJECT:  MORMO{XTIANS
DATE:     05/02/1993


John

Hang in on the other Mormo{Subjects (or should it be
Mormo}Subjects) to find out how I feel about religion.  As
for Neoplatonism, I think that we Mormons have things in
common with the Neoplatonists that we don't with the Xtians.
               emanations       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         05/02/93         6:41 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       RDCW86A
SUBJECT:  MORMO{XTIANS
DATE:     05/02/1993


John

Hang in on the other Mormo{Subjects (or should it be
Mormo}Subjects) to find out how I feel about religion.  As
for Neoplatonism, I think that we Mormons have things in
common with the Neoplatonists that we don't with the Xtians.
               emanations       proclusXtians1
=======
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/03/92        4:52 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/01  8:12 AM

TO:      MARC CARLSON   (DPJP43A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Marc
I use the term xtianity to refer to an institution of
oppression that has little, if any thing to do with
mormonism.  The people who support this institution have
been called the people of the book because they beleive that
the whole revelation of god is contained between the covers
of the bible.  The institution of xtainity has historically
exploited this unfounded belief to expand its political and
economic influence,  as well as its monopoly on the world of
religious thought.  Many of the xtians on the board do not
object to the term because they realise that since the
earliest days xtians have affectionately designated Jesus by
the greek letter chi, X.  X is also a cross.

If you would like to be a xtian, here are some of the most
common tenants.  Incidentally these are contradictory to the
mormon belief.
1.  God is unfathomable trinity
2.  Man is born in sin
3.  Man is saved by faith alone.
4.  The universe was created out of nothing
5.  Adam was a total failure
6.  If you do not get right with god, you will burn in hell
forever.

Doesn't that sound fun?

Mormon doctrine is opposed to all of these tenants.



                unction

                       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/12/92        3:17 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/12  8:54 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Well argued??  Hmmm.

So that's it, the Mormons have been decidedly put in their
place?  Well, if TWO concepts of Jesus are all that you
think there are, then you are a little more ignorant on this
subject than I thought you were. There are so MANY concepts
of what and who Jesus is, that it is preposterous
to single out the Mormons, just because they have the most
glorious view of things...

Let me spell out a few of the differences between the
concept of Jesus Christ and God, and several philosphies in
the "Christian" world prevalent among different denomination

1) Jesus IS God the Father  or, 2) Jesus is His Son or,
3) Jesus is an Almighty VAPOR  or, 4) God is so large that
He fills the universe, yet is so small that He can dwell in
our heart,  or, 5) Jesus was a great teacher, nothing more.
or, 6) God is a Spirit  or, 7) God is invisible  or,
8) God does not have body, parts, or passions, is immutable,
immense, incomprehensible, etc. and on and on...

Or the view of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints which departs from most of these and declares that
Jesus was the Son of God the Father, that they are two
separate and distinct beings, having flesh and bone, and
that they are Father and Son.  This is so simple, and makes
so much sense. Why would anyone want to worship a massive
immense vapor of nothingness that is everywhere yet nowhere?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/12/92        3:18 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/12  8:58 AM

TO:      NED SMITH   (JWXB00D)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Ned:

Your claims that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints are not recognized as Christians by
mainstream Christianity is unsubstantiated.  It is BECAUSE
this Church does not CHOOSE to join your group. That is why
we are not a part of this so-called official group.  In all
fact, members of this Church believe in and worship Christ
of the Bible, but have not fabricated a philosphy of who and
what He is that cannot be comprehended.  Some teach
that God is Christ (the same thing) and is invisible, or is
a spirit, or that He is everywhere and all-present, but yet
is nowhere specific.  Or that He can dwell in our hearts.
"That is the beauty of it!" you may say, but to me it is
just confusion.

In the real world, (not on *P*) I am accepted and recognized
as a faithful believer in Christ, but here in la la land I
find some so crass as to tell me that I worship some false
god who doesn't exist, and that I have called him jesus.
This is nothing more than an orchestrated attempt to TRY and
promote contention. But I will continue to post things, that
to me at least, clarify things in their proper perspective.

LDS have a concept of God the Father and His Son that
differs from most all other faiths, yet, so do other faiths
differ from each other in fundamental ways!  What this
proves is that LDS are not fairly singled out by you.
                                                     Grant

-------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------
Grant

You have made it very clear that there is an incredible
amount of diversity within the xtian tradition.  This only
means that the term "christian" is highly ambiguous and
thus, it is useless as a descriptive term.  Mormons might
as well refer to themselves as "widgits".  

On the other hand, the institution of xtianity exerts a
very real and  unambiguous influence on earthly life.  Its
reputation is so tarnished that mormons are doing
themselves no favor by identifying themselves with it.   I
am not trying to promote contention.  If mormons learned to
honour  their unique and distinctive tradition, the debate
would be over. 

vapor star

proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/13/92        9:19 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/13  9:06 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

How about 'follower of Christ' instead?? How about it folks,
shall we 'give-up' on 'Christians' and be estatic to be
'followers of Christ'? I think there is some truth to what
Michael says. We have never been ones to jump on the
bandwagon so to speak, why not one more way in which we are
a 'peculiar people'.?
---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/13/92        9:19 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/13  1:17 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DAVE BROWN   (XRXM94B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Mormons as "widgets"...it might work!
Of course, if you think the reputation of Christianity is
tarnished, it's nothing compared to that of Mormonism. And
Mormonism has had less than 200 years compared to almost
2000. You guys are major achievers!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/14/92        4:01 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/13 10:29 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

simple, proclus, let me give example:
hopefully you here on this BB see me as somewhat level
headed, hopefully respectful and kind, whereas my children
see me as a swamp-witch! does their interpretation, or yours
actually CHANGE me? does my being change or am i physically
different because of two different perceptions? NO. I am the
same. i am what i am. those who understand (or misunderstand
) as the case may be, me are the ones with the problem. it
is the same with Christ. He is who He is. My understanding,
or yours or Stephanies or Ned's or Dan's or even Larry
Jandro's does NOT change HIM. It is the same being
regardless of our various understandings. Yes?

---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/14/92        4:03 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/13  1:20 PM

TO:      PAMELA EMICK   (DJTN54B)
FROM:    DAVE BROWN   (XRXM94B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Where does God keep this body?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/14/92        4:03 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/14  8:14 AM

TO:      DAVE BROWN   (XRXM94B)
FROM:    PAMELA EMICK   (DJTN54B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

What do you mean, where does he keep it? He uses it.

pam


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/17/92        7:28 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/17  2:36 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    BRET BOTTGER   (SHSK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Duh,
 Of course the Mormons are Christians. In case no one's
noticed, Christianty is beautiful for the broad spectrum of
beliefs within it. It's like a huge umbrella encompassing an
entire category of faiths from many different cultures.
 I celebrated the Lord's supper today; how about you?  Bret
Monday, February 17 1992 01:30:08 AM SHSK79A


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/17/92        7:39 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       SHSK79A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/17/1992


Bret
I know that there is alot of ambivalence and bashing
happening in this subject right now, but let's not digress
here. You have made it very clear that there is an
incredible amount of diversity within the xtian tradition.
This only means that the term "christian" is highly
ambiguous and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
thus, it is useless as a descriptive term.  Mormons might
as well refer to themselves as "widgits".

On the other hand, the institution of xtianity exerts a
very real and  unambiguous influence on earthly life.
Mormons are doing themselves no favor by identifying
themselves with it. I am not trying to promote contention.
If mormons learned to honour their unique and distinctive
tradition, the debate would be over.
             emily lives
                        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/18/92        4:55 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       XRXM94B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/18/1992


Emily was a young xtian, who, when this subject was young,
relentlessly and earnestly made the case that mormons are
not xtians.  She used examples from mormon doctrine and
practice, but she was not a basher.

This is not to say that she didn't take it personally, or
that she didn't have an ax to grind.  She was reasonable
though, and amenable to change.

She accepted the sincerity of the mormons on this board.

Emily Lives

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/19/92        8:41 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       XRXM94B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/19/1992


Dave
I didn't agree with everything Emily said.  What  was
important was that she was sincere.  She had real personal
reasons for wanting to show the differences between
mormonism and xtianity.  She was up front with us.  In her
own way she was absolutely right.  She had a temper but she
also knew how to apologise.  I too have my own reasons for
highlighting the differences between mormons and xtians.  I
am not up front.  Unlike Emily I think mormons should turn
away from xtianity, not because of what they aren't, but
because of what they are.  They have a rich and distinctive
heretage, entirely apart from historical xtianity of which
they should be PROUD.

Are you going to bash me?

                         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/19/92        8:43 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       KBHD86A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/19/1992


Steph

Who's Sarah?

            merely

                  proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/21/92        4:10 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/20  8:47 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DAVE BROWN   (XRXM94B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Hey, proclus, I only bash when I get bashed first.
What do Mormons have to be proud of? I really do want to
know.
I mean, yeah, the westward trek and all that. But what else?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/21/92        4:24 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       XRXM94B
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/21/1992


Dave

Thanx for bringing up the pioneer heretage of the mormons.
That is an excellent example of the noble and intrepid
nature of this faith.  Despite horrendous persecution in
Missouri, mormons were able to regroup and build Nauvoo the
beautiful in Illinois.  With much vision, they drained a
swamp and built a thriving community.  They erected a
gorgeous temple, which was subsequently razed.

Mormons had intellectual integrity.  They abandoned
comfortable lives and religions for what they believed to be
true.  Many travelled with much hardship thousands of miles
to be with "the saints".  Despite its short history,
mormonism has developed a rich, intricate, and fascinating
tradition in doctrine and ritual.  It is one of the fastest
growing religions in the world.  Mormons espoused freedom of
religion, fought slavery, promoted enterprise.  In short,
they are the very symbol of what it means to be AMERICAN.

Dave, I've read most of your posts.  I suspect that you are
going to take issue with some of this.  Let me just say that
if even one of these things are true, mormons have AMPLE to
be proud of.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE                                                02/23/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 From: DAVE BROWN (XRXM94B)
 Subject: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
 Sent on: 02/23 at 12:58 PM

Proclus, I have been reading up on Mor- monism in the last month! I
hear the Mormons got driven out of the midwest because (like my
college guys) they thought they could ripoff their gentile neighbors
(called "spoiling the Egypt- ians" because the Mormons considered
themselves the "true Isrealites.") NOT a very noble heritage! I also
read about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which is less than a good
thing, right?
Well, at least you don't seem to be a major hypocrite like some on
this board! See ya!



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/23/92        3:44 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/22 11:44 PM

TO:      TIMOTHY FULLERTON   (BDWD72C)
FROM:    SEAN MCCROHAN   (FHSJ02C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

   Agreed.   Now, I like to think I have an open mind
(occasionally open to the point of complete inability to
make a decision), so I'm going to tell you what I think.
Then everyone can tell me why I'm wrong.  (Pessimist?  ME?)
   I see no reason why Mormons should be called anything but
Christians.  Admitedly, I don't know as much about their
faith as I would like - somehow, whenever one of them tries>
to explain it to me they get interupted - but I have not
heard anything that would disqualify them.
   Perhaps my views of what makes a Christian aren't the
same as everyone else's.  I believe that a Christian is a
disciple of Christ: in His own words, "Love one another.  As
I have loved you, so you must love one another.  I you have
love for one another, then everyone will know that you are
my disciples." (John 13:34-35).
   I know people who do not believe in the existance of God.
They have never gone to church, and probably never will.
And yet, some of them are among the best people I know. >
They care for the sick, give their time in volunteer work,
give money to charitable causes, use their talents on the
behaf of others, and show a compassion and understanding
which is rare in this world.
   Similarly, I know people who go to church every Sunday.
They eat at the Lord's Table, confess their sins once a
month, follow their antiquitated Baltimore Catechism to the
letter.  They also tell hateful lies about their neighbors,
ignore the needy around them, act with complete contempt for
their fellow man, and display an apathy which I find
apalling.
   Which of them are Christians?
   God is love.  He who knows love knows God, and all know
love.  One need not worship in the temple to be a
Christian...it is enough to simply love.
   Those who feel this requirement is not stringent enough
should look at their lives...do you truly love your
neighbor?  Thus it is that when I am asked what religion I
am, I do not say I am Catholic, nor do I say I am Christian.
I say "I try to be a Christian".  And that is all that
anyone can ask.
                                 --Sean


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/23/92        3:40 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FHSJ02C
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/23/1992


Sean
I can tell that you care about people.  Unfortunately, this
subject has not of late been what it originally was.  There
have been excessive personal attacks on both sides.  This
just clouds the issue.

Perhaps you will understand if we talk about xtianity
and mormonism instead of xtians and mormons.  Both xtians
and mormons claim to be followers of christ.  This is
difficult to dispute.  However, there is alot of important
differences between xtianity and mormonism.  This, on the
other hand is quite evident.

            remembering emma's  rose

                              proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/24/92        6:14 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       JVFK79A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/24/1992


Hi Marsha!

Emma is the handle of the wonderous lady who founded this
subject, otherwise known as Candace (cwjv88a).  She seems to
disappear for long periods of time.  This is the longest
that she has been gone.  I'm glad she's been gone since she
would have despaired grieviously over the bashing that both
sides have been doing of late.  Now at last, we can get away
from personal insults and get back to the question at hand;

What are the differences between Mormonism and Xtianity.
(Check out the caps!  I decided to use all my fingers when I
type and look at the screen from now on.)

                                         justice
                                                proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/25/92        4:23 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/24 11:42 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    SEAN MCCROHAN   (FHSJ02C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Proclus,
   I think you're right in principle, but by discussing how
Christianity differes from Mormonism implies that Mormons
are not Christian - and that seemed to me to be the question
under debate.  It's usually a bad idea to start a discussion
with the inherent assumption that one side is wrong.
   BTW, where did you get your name?  It's interesting...>
I'm sure someone else must have asked you about it, but I
must have missed it.  Your real name is rather interesting
as well.  Off topic, but I'm a curious sort of person.


     God is love.
       --Sean


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/25/92        5:24 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FHSJ02C
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     02/25/1992


Sean

If we don't discuss the differences between Mormonism and
Xtianity, then where is the debate?  What is the
alternative?  I think that we've all had enough of personal
attacks for a while.  We could sit  and make sweet and
affirming statements about "Christians" and what it  means
to be one. Such statements are meaningless until we define
the term.  It would be interesting if you proposed a
definition that we could all agree on, but that is not very
likely.  The term "Christianity" is ambiguous to say the
least, and is thus useless as a descriptive term.

On the other hand, the institution of Xtianity exerts a very
real and unambiguous influence on earthly life.  Mormons are
doing themselves no favor by identifying themselves with it.
If Mormons learned to honour their unique and richly
distinctive tradition,  the debate would be over.>>>>>>>>>>>

The doctrines and practices of Mormonism and Xtianity are a
matter of record.  Any comparison of these reveals important
differences.  This doesn't imply any assumption about
Mormons as people; however, it speaks reams about these
disparate institutions.   Draw your own conclusion.  Are
Mormons Xtians?

justice
                proclus
ps>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

PS  Proclus is the name of a pagan philosopher (circa 500
AD) whose teachings have much in common with Mormonism.  A
reflection of his idea is encapsulated in the  on-line
encyclopedia and elsewhere.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        02/26/92        6:28 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    02/25  6:01 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Hi, (would you rather be addressed as proclus or Michael?)
anyway, do you ahve to book "Religions of the World,  A
latter-day Saint View"?  It has some wonderful comparisons
in it and I think it is right 'up your alley'. I like the
opening paragraph which says, "In a text written primarily
to inform Latter-day Saints about the religious beliefs of
non-Christinas, it may seem somewhat superfluous to include
a chapter on Christianity. However, Christians in general
have little understanding of the historical high points in
the development of their own traditions. Latter-day Saint
Christians have had even less exposure to the major issues
in historiacal Catholicism and zProtestantism, since their
experiece is with restored christianity following 1830.
Thus, to complete the circle, it is appropriate to provide a
chapter frm which Christians of all traditions may reflect
upon their historical roots, regardless of whether those
roots are Chatolic, Protestant, or Latter-day Saint."
Interested?  ---<--@ Marsha


----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE                                                02/28/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 From: MARSHA STEED (JVFK79A)
 Subject: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
 Sent on: 02/27 at 01:41 AM

Michael, forgive me, but I have forgotten where you live. If you go to
most church book stores they should have it. I remember that the
Deseret Book club featured it in the past month or so. I hae enjoyed
Spencer J. Palmer's works before, he is intellegent and unjudgemental.
It is a black 11x14 book. I picked it up while in SL last year when I
was interested in learning more about the Jews on *p*. I'm sure your
'inquiring mind' would enjoy it. It is published by BYU.  Now, tell me
again about yourself? I remember that you are LDS and married I
recall, are you a BIC member or a later convert?  How about the
'little darlings' do any call you daddy proclus? What about your
political affiliation.... Just kidding!  anyway, it is a great book,
thanks for the comments. I'm enjoying the BB more now that much of the
silliness has died away and the CAP_ATTACK fiend has busied herself
elsewhere!  Keep up the thought provoking discussion, what is your
favorite part of the BoM?

Later, in the mire with one foot and on 'holy ground' with the
other.....

---<--@ Marsha

ps. the rose is for you, you don't need to send it back! 



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/02/92        7:42 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/02  8:14 AM

TO:      MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
FROM:    THOMAS GOODWIN   (PHJX44A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

  There is a GREAT difficulty with Mormon doctrine if as you
state: "Yet he was killled by the religionists of his day."
   When you speak of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and
do not cite the gospel references regarding his passion,
then what are we to think?
   According to my Bible he was tried, convicted, died and
was buried. On the third day, he rose from the dead. As >>>
per the  Bible that I have studied for All of my life, Jesus
was crucified at Golgoltha, for the remission of sins, by
ROMAN SOLDIERS, acting under the orders of Pilate. If we
observe BIBLICAL scripture we can read the account under
different APOSTLES writing under the inspiration of the Holy
Spirit.
   The inference of "religionists" as per your note is not
becoming. Other writers might very well consider it as being
Anti-Semitic. I am sure that you only have a lot of love in
your heart.      Best Wishes from "your Gentile"
                 Tom Goodwin phjx44a


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/02/92        7:47 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       PHJX44A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     03/02/1992


Thomas
I think that all have gotten a little off the subject.  Too
bad.  Still, I couldn't resist this one.

The biblical account shows that the crucifixion of Jesus was
the result of a conspiracy of Judas with the Sanhedrin.
What would you call these people besides religionists? proc.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:25 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/07  9:20 AM

TO:      EDWARD MURPHY   (HXJJ15A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Eddy,

As your name imples, you are a comedian!

I know you mean well, but you just don't have us figured out
right. Mormon's are Christians, because they profess to
believe in Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God. For this
reason alone, they deserve the title.

Going one step further, who says you really understand your
Bible, and what it teaches? I boldly state that you do not
know what it teaches, and that you do not understand that
the doctrines about the personality of Jesus Christ and His
literal body of flesh and bone, and that He is, yes, part of
the great and large family of God the Father are true and
supported by the Bible. But not proven by the Bible. NOTHING
is proven by the Bible anyway. But we are in HARMONY with
it.  I submit that it is the wrong activity for you to be
involved in: telling others that they are not Christian and
that they try to deceive the world.  These same cheap shots
could be used on yourself by us if we so desired to use
these tactics. But it is not Christian behaviour, therefore
we refrain.

                              Grant

                          (professing to believe in Christ)Xtians2
=======
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:26 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/07  8:22 PM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

To say the Mormon church has never made an attempt to
discredit Bible-believing people and Christianity as a whole
is utterly false. Jos. smith attacked the Christian church,
so any Christian who speaks against the Mormon system is
merely defending himself and the church on the basis of the
admonition in Jude 3 that tells the believer to 'earnestly
contend for the faith'. Joseph smith wrote that there had >>
been a revival in the area where he lived in New York during
his boyhood in 1820.This 'religious excitement' as he called
it involved the Baptist, Methodist and Presby. churches.
Since he was confused about which church to join, he went to
the woods to pray about the matter. Returning from the
woods, he proclaimed he had actually seen God the Father and
Jesus Christ standing in the air above him. When he inquired
of these personages which church was true, this was the
reply, "I was answered that I must join none of them, for
they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said
that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight:that>
whose professors were all corrupt; that 'they draw newr to
me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they
teach fro doctrines the commandments of men, having a form
of godliness but they deny the power thereof". Smith was not
the only one with this thought concerning Christianity.
Brigham Young, the second president of the Chrich of Jesus
Christ-latter Day Saints said: The Christian world, so
called, are hethens as to their knowledge of the salvation
of God. He also stated, "With regard to true theology, a
more ignoratn people never lived that the present so called
Christian world". John Taylor, who succeeded Brigham Young>
made these comments "We talk about Christianity, but it is a
perfect pack of nonsense..the Devil could not invent a
better engine to spread his work than Christianity of the
19th. century". "What! Are Christians ingnorant? Yes, as
ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast". "What
does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why as
far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest
fools; they know neither of God not the things of God."
Orson Pratt stated in his book The Seer:"All other churches
are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any
person who receives Baptism or the Lords Supper from their>>
hands will highly offend God for he looks upon them as the
most corrupt of all people".Until April 1990, the most
blatant criticisms and mockeries against Christianity were
found in their temple ceremony. The ceremony included a
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:26 PM
dialogue between a character playing the part of Lucifer and
a man described as a preacher. In their first meeting
Lucifer asks if the man preaches the 'orthodox religion' to
which the man proudly answers 'yes'. Lucifer then says, "If
you will preach your orthodox religion to these people and
convert them I will pay you well." To this the preacher
answers enthusiastically, "I will do my best". Later on in>>
in the dialog it becomes clear that this 'orthodox religion'
considered to be heresy by Mormonism is really the faith
held dear by many Bible believing Christians. the doctrines
of God dwelling in a believer's heart, of a hell with fire
and flames, and the biblical principle that men are saved by
the grace of God without any action on the part of man are
ridiculed. It is not true that Mormonism does not attack
Christianity. Its very tenets are an affront to Christianity
as a whole since they believe the work of Christ was not
enough to save man, The Mormon believes Christ died and rose
again merely to pave the way for all men to be   CONT.>>>>>


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:30 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/07  8:22 PM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    RICK FERNANDEZ   (MXRJ10A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Ed, your note had some very valid and worthwhile points and
I enjoyed reading it overall. The dangers of
"Christianizing" civil religion so that it becomes a cover
for all manner of political machinations can never be
understressed. Likewise, the scandal that results from those
who profess Christian doctrines but whose lives don't
reflect this also does damage to the cause of faith.
However, there is another danger to faith and good will and
I'd like you to consider that. This is the danger of making
statements about a group that are simply untrue. Such mis-
representations can only lead to prejudice and needless
strife.
You made two comments in particular that I want to discuss,
and I hope you'll consider my viewpoint seriously:
1) reference to worship of Satan in paganistic temple
ceremonies. Ed, I am a convert of almost 5 years to the LDS
church. Prior to that I was studying for the Roman Catholic
priesthood, completing both my M.A. in theology and 4 years
of pastoral preparation. I was not unaware of Mormonism at
this time, having grown up in Mesa AZ surrounded my LDS all
my life. I found the religion superficial and silly at that
time. I clearly qualified for the label "anti-Mormon"
because I did what I could to steer investigators from it
and to convert LDS away from the church. However, (details
elsewhere on how if desired), I am now a member of the LDS
church, and have been to the temple. Let me assure you in
the strongest possible terms that there is no paganistic
worship of Satan in the temple; nothing even remotely close.
I have not been brainwashed or deceived. Believe me, I have
always been an "eyes open" LDS, and I question everything.
Just because someone said so has never been good enough for
me. I have always needed to know and understand, and receive
confirmation from God through personal revelation. Perhaps
it was all my training in empiricism, logical positivism and
scepticism that has never left me. But use of my brain is
just as important as use of my heart in religious affairs.
What DOES go on in the temple is the closest experience I
have ever had to being in heaven. Satan does figure in the
temple ceremony, but only, I repeat, only as the enemy of
both God and humanity, not as an object of worship in any
degree whatsoever. Only a deliberately prejudiced mind would
believe that LDS honor Satan in any way.
2) I'd be very careful in stating that one evidence that LDS
are not Christian is our refraining from using the cross.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:30 PM
Research in early Christian history shows that the idea of
the cross was tied to the triumph of Christ over death and
was always linked to the resurrection. But the practice of
actually making or painting crosses came not till after the
3rd century A.D. Placing the image of Christ on the cross
did not start until the 5th century, and then Christ was
always depicted as alive, i.e. ruling or reigning from the
cross. Crucifixes as such, with the dead Christ on them, did
not begin until the later Middle Ages.
As to why LDS do not use the cross much relates directly to
our belief that the passion, the death and the resurrection
all go together, and that the definitive symbol for all this
is the triumphant, living Christ (BTW, every symbol in the
temple points to this faith in Christ). It certainly has
nothing to do with not believing in the atonement or in
Christ. We don't condemn those who do use the cross; we hope
others will respect our preference not to focus on that
image. There are other Christians who also don't use it.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:30 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/07  8:22 PM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

CONT; resurrected. Salvation, or exaltation, is solely
dependant upon the works of men. In the words of James
Talmage: "Salvation is, and must be, a cooperative
enterpries between God and man". Probably one of the most
offensive tenets of Mormonism is their insistance that they
are the only true Christian church on the face of the earth
and that every other church is in a state of apostasy. The>>
Mormons deny almost every fundamental of the Christian
faith, and insist they alone represent true Christianity. In
1973, Apostle Mark E. Peterson succinctly stated this Mormon
position when he said "When the Saviour established his
church during his mortal ministry..1 important fact became
conspiciously clear: Salvation comes thru the Chruch. It
does not come through any separate organization or splinter
group not to any private party as an individual.. Therefore,
it was made clearly manifest that salvation is in the Church
and of the Church and is obtained only thru the Church. From
this context it is clear that Peterson refers to the >>>
CoJCLDS as 'the Chruch". On Oct.6,1990, an AP article appear
ed in the San Diego Union entitled, "Mormons Warming to More
Dialogue With Other Religious Groups". The article stated
that while Mormons have generally kept aloof from other
religious groups, they are now becoming more involved with
them. The article also mentioned the mistrust Christians
have toward the Mormon Church. That mistrust is justified
when you discover that there is no way for Mormons to fellow
ship with Bible-believing Christians on equal terms since
they believe themselves to be the only true church. This is
a fundamental conviction of Mormonism that cannot be denied>
without denouncing the Book of Mormon itself. 1Nephi 14:10
"Behold there are save two churches only; the on is the
church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of
the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of
the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the
mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the
earth". Because the Mormons feel this exclusively, they
neaturally feel compelled to convert as many as possible to
their way of thinking, The 'warming up' to other churches
mentioned in the newspaper article will help them accomplish
that goal. The statistics seem to prove it because many >>>
converts to Mormonism once attended a Christian church of
one denomination or another.    McKeever


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:31 PM
          Sorry so lengthy but it needed to be said!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:36 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       KBHD86A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     03/08/1992


Nicely said Steph

Didn't Brigham say in that same speech that historical
xtianity was "hatched in hell"?  I think that the
demarkations between mormonism and xtianity are very clear.
           mormons are not xtians
                                 proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:39 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/08  1:35 PM

TO:      EDWARD MURPHY   (HXJJ15A)
FROM:    CRAIG LEWIN   (DKVP82A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Edward,
  I enjoyed your posts.  You really started out well.  To
read the first part you really sounded like you wanted to
answer this question objectively.  Unfortunately, your
language betrays your objectivity in the second half.
statements like "Paganistic worship of Lucifer" indicate a
strong bias.  You concluded by using many inflamatory
phrases and sentences.  Terms such as pagan or cult never
prove anything -- and in fact lead to the very thing you
elequantly condemned at the beginning of your post!
  Now, as far as your definition of Christianity.  I do not
think you realize how many "Christians" you have excluded
with your definition!  First, I restate it:
  "Those who accept the basic tenent of Christianity that
the Biblical Jesus Christ is the ONLY son of God, who came
to earth in a human body to offer himself in atonement for
the sins of mankind."
  Later you clarify this definition by adding that Mormons
don't qualify because they:
  "believe that Jesus Christ is just one of several sons of
God the Father."
  I believe then that your definition seeks to exclude any
who believe that man can become as God. Is this correct?  I
will have to continue on this assumption.
  Back to my premis, If you use this definition, you will
exclude more christians than you intended.
  Lorenzo Snow stated "As man now is, God once was; As God
now is, man may become." This quote is well known part of
"Mormon" doctrine, but listen to a few others:
  St. Irenaeus (2nd Century, most important theologian of
his time) "If the Word became a man, It was so men may
become gods."  (Against Heresies, bk 5 pref)
  St. Clement of Alexandria (2nd Century) "Yea, I say, the
word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man
how to become a god" (Exhortation to the Greeks, 1)  He also
said "If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing
God will become like God... His is beauty, true beauty, for
it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it.
So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and
gods are men.'" (The Instructor, 3.1)
  St. Athanasius (4th Century -- tireless foe of Heresy) "He
became a man that we might be made divine"  (De Inc., 54)
  St Augustine "But he himself that justifies also deifies,
for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92        2:39 PM
them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12].  If then
we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."
(On the Psalms 50.2)
  These individuals are not Pagans, they were Christians --
BUT NOT BY YOUR DEFINITION!  Not only were they Christians,
they were orthodox Christian SAINTS!
  In the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology:
  "Deification (Greek Theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of
every Christian.  Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in
the image and likeness of God' ... It is possible for man to
become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.
This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT
(Ps 82(81).6; II Peter 1.4), and it is essentially the
teaching both of St Paul, though he tends to use the
language of filial adoption and the Fourth Gospel"
  I will continue the note.  For now, if you are determined
to exclude all who believe in deification, you will have
eliminated many of the founders of Christianity!  -- Craig


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/08/92       11:11 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       DKVP82A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     03/08/1992


I loved that post Craig.  Are you aware that Robinson's
book, "Are Mormons Christians" is the reason that Emma
founded this subject?  This subject is highly charged though
and the conversation varies widely.

I'm sure that you are aware that it is likely that the
majority of modern xtians definately don't believe in the
deification of man.  To them this is the rankest heresy, and
these early Xtian fathers must have got the message garbled.
It has been said that this is the lie told to Eve in the
garden.  "Ye shall be as gods".

Therefore, Mormons cannot  be said to be Xtians in the
modern sense of the word, that is, if it has a sense at all.
You yourself have pointed out some of the ambiguities of the
term.  These ambiguities are so pronounced as to be fatal to
the meaning of the word.  There are so many definitions of
the word "christian" floating around that it    >>>>>>>>>>>
is useless as a descriptive term.  If I say, I'm a
Christian", the  meaning conveyed is so different to so many
people that I may as well have referred to myself as a
widget.

On the other hand, the institution of xtianity exerts a very
real and  unambiguous influence on earthly life.  Its
reputation is so tarnished that mormons are doing themselves
no favor by identifying themselves with it.  I am not trying
to promote contention.  If mormons learned to honour their
unique and distinctive tradition, the debate would be
over.

proclus (c. 500 ad)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/11/92       10:07 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/10  6:25 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CRAIG LEWIN   (DKVP82A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Michael,
  Thanks for your note.  I appreciate your response.  You do
sound like you mean well when you say that mormons would do
better to shy away from the term christian and advance their
own unique heritage.  The problem is that detractors of
mormonism use this ploy to make people think we are a cult.
That we worship Joseph Smith or BoM or something else.
  The truth of the matter is exactly as you stated.  The
definition of "christian" is quite varied and accepts
a wide variety of meanings.  Protestants and Catholics,
while they don't agree on doctrine or even several concepts
involving Christ -- have agreed to call each other
christians.  In doing so, the term 'christian' allows in its
definition a wide variety of beliefs and doctrines.
   Those who claim that mormons are not Christian are trying
to redefine the word in such a way as to exclude mormons.
Unfortunately, this is difficult to do without excluding
someone else.
  In all of the various methods used to claim that the LDS
are not Christian, the one that is never tried is that the
Mormons don't believe in Christ as Lord.  To me that is the
central issue.  And no one who really understands Mormon
teachings can claim that Christ is not central to their
teachings.
  It is interesting to me that antagonists would try to
claim that mormons are not christian in an effort to lead a
sincere inquirer into the belief that Mormons don't believe
in Christ; yet their arguments are all empty.  Any claim
that Christ is not central to the Mormon religion can
easily be answered by visiting an LDS sunday school class.
That is the delema the detractors put themselves into.
  It is like saying someone is not an American and then
trying to prove it because they lived in another land, or
they have a southern accent, or their knowledge of history
isn't up to par; but never asking for a birth certificate
because they know that would offer final proof.
  We believe in Christ.  That is the same Christ that
appears in the Bible.  We are blessed to have additional
information because of modern day prophets -- but we still
believe in Christ.
  One other problem.  Many of the Protestant religions are
sore because of the position we have put them in.  If the
Catholic church is not true, all the protestant religions
fail with her and there was a need for a restoration.  If
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/11/92       10:07 PM
the Catholic church is true, what need is there for the
protestant religion?  In either case, Apostolic succession
or restoration, the true church of Christ was founded by
Christ and was (and is) led by Him.  There is no need for
any other Church.  Our teachings come closer to the original
christian church than any of the protestant religions.
Doctrinally, we are closer to the Catholic church before
it was indoctrinated with Greek and Pagan beliefs.  (See
almost any book that discusses the history of Christianity,
especially one that talks about the Hellinization of the
Catholic Church).  I leave this topic alone for now .

 -- Craig


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/11/92       10:29 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       DKVP82A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     03/11/1992


Craig

  "We believe in Christ.  That is the same Christ that
appears in the Bible.  We are blessed to have additional
information because of modern day prophets -- but we still
believe in Christ."
               >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This argument sounds good on the surface.  It certainly has
merit within the context of Mormonism.  Unfortunately, it
ignores the differences between the Christ of Mormonism and
that of modern Xtianity.  If you look at my previous posts
you will find that I am well aware that Mormonism shares
an uncanny amount of doctrine with early mesopotamean
religions, including the religion of the bible.  WE must
deal with MODERN Xtianity.

If a Xtian goes to Mormon Sunday School in 1992, he will
find out that the Mormon Jesus is; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1. not God but a god.
2. Satan's brother.
3. payed for sin not on the holy cross, but in Gesthemene.


This is but a small cross-section of the differences between
the Mormon and Xtian Christs.  The differnces are so
striking that THEY CANNOT BE THE SAME GOD.

                 difference
                           proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/11/92       10:39 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     03/11/1992


Grant

Your argument ignores the fact that the word "Christian"
does not mean today what it meant in those days.

Come into the Ninities!
                       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/11/92       10:39 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/11 12:42 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

The LDS have FIRST claims on the title CHRISTIAN, because of
its use in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Alma, which
took place in 73 B.C.  !!  (see Alma 46:13)

Yep, we got it before Christ was even born. So I hope this
settles the question, most decisively and conclusively.  The
LDS are indeed a Christian people.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/13/92        2:58 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/11  9:09 PM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    NED SMITH   (JWXB00D)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?


 So, according to the BOM, Mormons were called Christains
before Christ was born and that makes them Christians today.

Yep-that says it all!   BTW, I have a bridge for sale-
interested?
                                     Ned


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/13/92        2:59 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/12 12:00 PM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Grant

Your argument ignores the fact that the word "Christian"
does not mean today what it meant in those days.

Come into the Ninities!
                       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/13/92        2:59 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/12  5:55 PM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?




      !!!!!????????????? WHAT ??????????????!!!!!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/13/92        2:59 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/12  9:54 PM

TO:      NED SMITH   (JWXB00D)
FROM:    ALLAN RIFLEMAN   (NHPC34A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Sorry Grant,
     Just because the BofM states that you are christian
does not make it so. First you have to believe in the story
and amazingly it seems the "true believers" are in the
minority.
Try again
Allan


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/15/92        1:19 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/12 12:21 PM

TO:      CRAIG LEWIN   (DKVP82A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Craig

  "We believe in Christ.  That is the same Christ that
appears in the Bible.  We are blessed to have additional
information because of modern day prophets -- but we still
believe in Christ."
               >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This argument sounds good on the surface.  It certainly has
merit within the context of Mormonism.  Unfortunately, it
ignores the differences between the Christ of Mormonism and
that of modern Xtianity.  If you look at my previous posts
you will find that I am well aware that Mormonism shares
an uncanny amount of doctrine with early mesopotamean
religions, including the religion of the bible.  WE must
deal with MODERN Xtianity.

If a Xtian goes to Mormon Sunday School in 1992, he will
find out that the Mormon Jesus is; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1. not God but a god.
2. Satan's brother.
3. payed for sin not on the holy cross, but in Gesthemene.


This is but a small cross-section of the differences between
the Mormon and Xtian Christs.  The differnces are so
striking that THEY CANNOT BE THE SAME GOD.

                 difference
                           proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/15/92        1:23 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/15  8:28 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    CRAIG LEWIN   (DKVP82A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Michael,
  Thank you for the note.  Let me deal with your statements
one at a time.
  "1. Jesus is not God but god."  We always refer to Christ
as God.  He is Jehovah the God of the Old Testament and
Christ the God of the New Testament.
  Most christians would reconsile the scripture in Gen
1:26-27 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after
OUR likeness..." as refering to the trinity.  They can
believe that God can refer to himself as plural or singular
without contradiction.  We can claim that Jehovah is God,
and that Elohim is God, without contradiction.  We can also
claim that the Godhead is God, since they are One in
purpose.  I admit, sometimes in our doctrine it is unclear
whether we are refering to God the Father, to Jesus Christ
(who is also called the Father by virtue of the fact that He
is the Creator), or the Godhead, when we talk of God.  Most
of the time when it is unclear, who we are talking to is not
as important as what They have to say.
  "God the Father placed his name upon the Son; and Jesus
Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father's
name; and so far as power, authority, and Godship are
concerned his words and acts were and are those of the
Father" (Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage, apx 2.)
  "2. Jesus is Satan's Brother."  You are correct, however,
what we teach is that Satan is a fallen son of God.  Isaiah
14:12 says "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son
of the morning..."  Lucifer means "the Shining One" or
"lightbringer" or "Son of the Morning".  Mormon doctrine
teaches that all of us were with God as his children, some
followed Lucifer and fell from heaven.  (see also Luke
10:18).
  "3. Jesus payed (paid?) for sin in Gethsemene, not on the
Cross"  We believe the entire process, beginning in
Gethsemene and finishing on the Cross was important.  When
he paid for our sins is not as important as the fact that he
Did!  This does not mean He is a different person.
  Many things that God does has two parts.  There is a
spiritual and a physical creation.  Baptism is by water
(physical) and fire (spiritual).  We simply believe that
Gethsemane was the spiritual part of the sacrifice and that
His death was the physical.
  Whether you believe JFKennedy was shot by one person or
two, does not change who Kennedy was.  Stating that we
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/15/92        1:24 PM
believe in a different Christ because of Gethsemane is the
same as saying that someone believes in a different Kennedy
because he believes in the two bullet conspiriacy.  That
just doesn't make any sense.
  If some book were discovered that contained additional
information about Jesus (See John 21:25) would that mean
that everyone reading and believing in it would be believing
in a different Christ?  Of course not.
  I know we have a distinctive theology that sets us apart.
I am proud of the fact that my religion has not followed the
philosophies of man.  We have not come to our knowledge by
learned men -- that obviously doesn't work because mans ways
are not God's ways (Isaiah 55:8).  Evidence --> 400 or more
christian sects. Throughout the bible, God makes a covenant
with man through a prophet.  Men either keep it or break it.
When broken, a new prophet calls them to repentance.  Then
He offers a new covenant with man. Thank God for Prophets --
old and modern!  Craig


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/18/92        5:47 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       NHPC34A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     03/18/1992


Allen

I really think that their are many answers to that question,
within the context of Mormonism.  I thought I'd venture one
before the black brotherhood chirps in with assertions about
the absolute perfection of the ordinance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Think of the church as medicine for a sick world.  When the
patient gets better, their will no longer be any requirement
for medicine, dig?  It is a wide world, and distant from
God.  No perfections exist here yet.  That includes every
aspect of the church, even the endowment.  We can only
attempt an approach to God.  He will pick up the slack
later.

         new age original sin

                             proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/23/92        8:16 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/22  6:49 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    EDWARD MURPHY   (HXJJ15A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Andrew,  Its refreshing to see an open minded, free-thinking
mormon here on the board.  Your attitude, though, could be
harmful to your standing in the church.  I hope no one
reports your questioning attitude to your biship!! EGADS!!Xtians3
=======
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/23/92        8:16 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    03/23  1:23 PM

TO:      EDWARD MURPHY   (HXJJ15A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

I wouldn't worry too much about my standing in the church.
It seems that I am forbidden from sharing any of my views at
church gatherings (see the excellent posting on
disfellowshipment under the Mormon-Excommunication subject).

The one thing that could get me in trouble is if someone at
Church headquarters is logging onto *P* and putting all of
this stuff in my file.  But they wouldn't do that, would
they?  Would they?????

           \/ St Andrew
           /\

BTW, I am in the unfortunate position of being able to call
my Bishop "Dad."  And we all know what kind of a reputation
bishops' sons have.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        03/23/92        8:15 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     03/23/1992


St. Andy

How are things over there in the CIA recruiting grounds,
BYU.  It is a well known fact that Mormons figure
prominantly in intelligence circles.  This is because the
missions provide an excellent training background for a
future spy.  Also, mormons are prolific recordkeepers.  The
kind of surveillence implied by your post is certainly
within the purview of the church and perhaps a little scary
to us New Age Mormons!

          immer

               proclus

ps Did you know that Dave had some intelligence experience?
Nothing is what it seems to be.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        04/06/92        8:24 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    04/06  2:19 PM

TO:      RICHARD NEEDHAM   (RDBK99A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Richard, the problem with Mormonism is that it teaches that
Jesus Christ is a created being. Not so. If it were so, then
the deity of Jesus would be jeopardized. Mormonism also
teaches that God is a created being. Therefore, how can HE
be God? I see where you stated that God is omnipotent and
all knowing but you forgot to mention omnipresent. Maybe
that's where your confusion lies??


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        04/06/92        8:28 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       KBHD86A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     04/06/1992


How about this one Steph?

The Mormon god experiences "virtual omnipotence" via a
unique device.  When he looks into his urim and thummim he
can see anything, anywhere, anytime he wants to.

        lysergic diethylbu-saints      proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        04/08/92        9:19 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    04/07  5:33 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Very interesting Michael. The Almighty God of the Bible uses
no devices to obtain His power!


                   Under the wing of the Almighty,
                             Steph


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        04/08/92        9:34 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       KBHD86A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE:     04/08/1992


Steph

I think that you've made a pretty fair assessment.  The
Xtian god is thought to be entirely supernatural in his
operation.

The Mormon god on the other hand employs devises, such as
the urim and thummim and the liahona.  These two examples
have already been discussed at length.  It is easy to view
them as a kind of technology.

I thought of another example though.  We were discussing the
vision of the brother of Jared.  The reason that he went
before the Lord in the first place was to obtain lighting
for his seacraft.  The Lord did not cause light to appear
out of nowhere, like the hebraic Shekinah.  He operated
physically on some stones, which then became luminous.
Jared spied the finger of the Lord as he touched the stones>
The Xtian lord speaks heaven and earth out of nothing.  The
Mormon god by comparison is opportunistic.  He takes of some
material and forms an earth.  The heavens are co-eternal
with him.

Which God is Which?
                   proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        04/09/92       10:35 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    04/09  4:48 PM

TO:      STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?

Where, chapter and verse, is that doctrine oh-so-explicitly
stated, Steph??

                   \/
                   /\
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