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Joe,
I used to think there was some kind of ontological break between
ordinary reality and "religious" reality.
Now I have a more "wholistic" view of the nature of reality, as well
as the nature of "religious" experience. Fasting is a key technique
in traditional Mormonism for gaining power and insight. Prolonged
"mighty prayer", in which breathing is deepened and the mind brought
to a single point, is another. This indicates that there is a connection
between body chemistry (fasting, breath), brain function (single pointed
concentration) and the "religious" dimension. This indicates that reality
is a seemless continuum from physics to biology to "Meaning"...the
religious dimension.
Considering how Islam empowered the Bedouins to establish a theocratic
empire from China to Spain in a single generation, as well as the restless
millions in Latin America, I'm not ready to dismiss the Book of Mormon
scenario as delusion.
Thanks for the kind words...I feel pretty alone right now,
Ken
>
> I was "engaged" to get married to a fine lady in Pocatello...until two
>
> days ago...when she anounced she "needs her space". That is pussy
> talk for "get lost loser".
Ken. My condolances. However, I enjoyed reading your message. Not
because of what happened to you, but because I liked reading your frank
comments about it. Yeah, I think I have had that language spoken to me
betimes too. ;-)
Be Well.
Randall.
Subject:
Re: Crazy Wisdom and Tibetan Teaching Tales Told by Lamas
Date:
Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:12:33 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com,
jswick@cris.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
Proclus,
Terton means "Treasure Revealer" in Tibetan, and is refering to someone
who brings forth ancient Scriptures by supernatural means. If you read
the accounts of the Tertons at work in Tibet you see the connection between
with Joseph Smith very clearly. The Termas (treasures) are often written on
metal plates, and the writting is a completely unknown launguage called
"Dakini Script" by the Tibetans. The Terton has three pngts, being lead to
the hiding place, extracting the Terma from its supernaturaly protected hiding
place, and translating the scripture from the Dakini Script into Tibetan,
Ken
Subject:
bundle
Date:
Sun, 05 Jul 1998 23:19:39 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
"proclus@mac.com"
Subject:
[Fwd: Immortalist Qualms about Cosmetic Surgery?]
Date:
Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:44:57 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
"proclus@mac.com" , "rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org"
I'm having some fun on the extropian list, so I attached the following for
your amusement. These extropians also owe a large debt to Wilson and Leary,
so perhaps it is germaine =}. If you are interested in this stuff, here is a link.
http://www.transhuman.com/mirrors/www.aleph.se/Trans/index.html
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Immortalist Qualms about Cosmetic Surgery?
Date:
Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:13:37 -0500
From:
proclus
Reply-To:
extropians@extropy.com
To:
extropians@extropy.com
References:
1
QueeneMUSE@aol.com wrote:
> I don't think letting your roots
> grow in grey or letting your skin sag has much to do -one way or the other-
> with life extension as I understand it.. as well, I think that the medically
> enduced efforts of a person to look young, feel young, and remain culturally
> attractive, can only enhance how one feels about one's self, enhancing one's
> sex life.. job opportunities... all that good stuff...
I think that the ageism of our culture is going to seem pretty ridiculous from
the perspective of a couple of hundreed years. Discrimination against the
elderly is not a transhuman activity as I understand it.
> my take on all of this is that life's length is not ultimately the goal, but
> it's quality and amount one can get out of it.
> Plus it's promoting your self as a transhuman..
> I favor enhancements of quality and excellence of the human condition of all
> type, including surgery and artifice.
I think that Anders is right that things like face lifts and hair dyes are
unlikely to interfere with rejuvinating technology, when it arrives. That is
because they are superficial changes. Viagra and anti-balding drugs are not
superficial changes, and the the life extension effect of viagra is probably
fundamentally negative. Our obsession with youth culture is interfering with
the transhuman objectives.
As for the transhuman persona, I feel that it is important to act as a
transhuman, not falsely appear as one. Cosmetic surgury can mask the effects
of aging, so I avoid it. Life extension is a fundamental change.
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Thomas Cahill
Date:
Wed, 01 Jul 1998 23:00:03 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus
Amazon is right. Cahill rocks.
JSW
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Love
To: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire
R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve Swick
III ArtdeHoyos Randall Shortridge
Beth any proclus
rpc man onandagus@webtv.net
Neoptolmus@aol.com Dave
Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Theurgus
Date: Wednesday, July 01, 1998 1:03 PM
Subject: Thomas Cahill
>Any opinions out there regarding Thomas Calhill? Amazon thinks that I
>will love Thomas Cahill. Here are a couple of his titles.
>
> The Gifts of the Jews : How a Tribe of Desert Nomads
> Changed the Way Everyone Thinks and Feels - Thomas
> Cahill; Hardcover
>
> How the Irish Saved Civilization : The Untold Story of
> Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise
> of Medieval Europe - Thomas Cahill; Paperback
>
>proclus
>
>
>--
>Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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>
Subject:
[Fwd: Thomas Cahill]
Date:
Sun, 05 Jul 1998 20:47:41 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
proclus
Subject:
Thomas Cahill
Date:
Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:03:14 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus
Any opinions out there regarding Thomas Calhill? Amazon thinks that I
will love Thomas Cahill. Here are a couple of his titles.
The Gifts of the Jews : How a Tribe of Desert Nomads
Changed the Way Everyone Thinks and Feels - Thomas
Cahill; Hardcover
How the Irish Saved Civilization : The Untold Story of
Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise
of Medieval Europe - Thomas Cahill; Paperback
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
[Fwd: Dr. James Tabor]
Date:
Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:04:48 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
"proclus@mac.com"
Subject:
Dr. James Tabor
Date:
Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:29:04 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
Theurgus@aol.com, jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
CC:
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com
Hail Mutants!
Please check out this essay and website.
Ancient Judaism
Nazarenes and Ebionites - An Introduction
by James D. Tabor
© 1998, all rights reserved.
Josephus reports four main sects or schools of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees,
Essenes, and Zealots. The earliest followers of Jesus were known as
Nazarenes, and perhaps later, Ebionites, and form an important part of the
picture of Palestinian Jewish groups in late 2nd Temple times.
The Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of the mostly Jewish/Israelite,
followers of John the Baptizer, and later Jesus, who were concentrated in
Palestine and surrounding regions, and led by “James the Just,” oldest
brother of Jesus, flourishing between the years 30-80 CE. They were zealous
for the Torah, and continued to walk in all the mitzvot (commandments) as
enlightened by their Rabbi and Teacher, accepting non-Jews into their
fellowship on the basis of some version of the Noachide Laws (Acts 15 and
21). The term Ebionite (from Hebrew ’Evyonim) means “Poor Ones,” and was
taken from the teachings of Jesus: Blessed are you Poor Ones, for yours is
the Kingdom of God” based on Isaiah 66:2 and other related texts that address
a remnant group of faithful ones. Nazarene comes from the Hebrew word Netzer,
drawn from Isa 11:1 and means a Branch—so the Nazarenes were the
“Branchites,” or followers of the one they believed to be the Branch. The
term Nazarene was likely the one first used for these followers of Jesus, as
evidenced by Acts 24:5 where Paul is called “the ringleader of the sect of
the Nazarenes.” Here we see the word used in a similar way to that of
Josephus in writing of the four sects/schools of Judaism: Pharisees;
Sadducess; Essenes; and Zealots. So the term Nazarene is probably the best
and broadest term for the movement, while Ebionite (Poor Ones) was used as
well, along with a whole list of other terms: Saints, Children of Light, the
Way, New Covenanters, et al. We also know from the book of Acts that the
group itself preferred the designation “The Way” (see Acts 24:14;22, etc.).
The term “Christian,” first used in Greek speaking areas for the movement,
actually is an attempt to translate the term Nazarene, and basically means a
“Messianist.”
The Essenes (possibly from 'Ossim, meaning “Doers of Torah”), who wrote or
collected the Dead Sea Scrolls, pioneered certain aspects of this “Way,” over
150 years before the birth of Jesus. They were a wilderness (out in the
Arava, near the Dead Sea based on Isa 40:3)), “baptist” (mikveh of repentance
as entrance requirement into their fellowship), new covenant,
messianic/apocalyptic group (they were expecting three redemptive Figures—the
Prophet like Moses and his two Messiahs), that saw themselves as the remnant
core of God’s faithful people—preparing the Way for the return of YHVH's
Glory (Kavod) as set forth in Isaiah 40-66. They too referred to themselves
as the Way, the Poor, the Saints, the New Covenanters, Children of Light, and
so forth. Perhaps their most common designation was the Yachad--the
brotherhood or community, and they referred to themselves as brother and
sister. They were bitterly opposed to the corrupt Priests in Jerusalem, to
the Herods, and even to the Pharisees whom they saw as compromising with that
establishment to get power and influence from the Hellenistic/Roman powers.
They had their own developed Halacha (interpretation of Torah), some aspects
of which Jesus picks up (ideal of no divorce, not using oaths, etc.). They
followed one they called the True Teacher (Teacher of Righteousness) whom
most scholars believe lived in the 1st century B.C.E. and was opposed and
possibly killed by the Hasmonean King/Priests at the instigation of the
Pharisees. John the Baptizer seems to arise out of this context and rekindle
the apocalyptic fervor of the movement in the early decades of the first
century C.E.
So, the terminology is flexible, there are a variety of self-designations
used by the Jesus movement, most of which had previously been used by the
Essenes. In that sense you might call the Jesus movement a further developed
messianic “Essenism,” modified through the powerful, prophetic influence of
Jesus as Teacher.
Later, when Christianity developed in the 3rd and 4th centuries, and
gradually lost its Jewish roots and heritage, largely severing its
Palestinian connections, the Gentile, Roman Catholic Church historians began
to refer to Ebionites and Nazarenes as two separate groups—and indeed, by the
late 2nd century there might have been a split between these mostly Jewish
followers of Jesus. The distinction these writers make, (and remember, they
universally despise these people and call them “Judaizers”) is that the
Ebionites reject Paul, and the doctrine of the Virgin Birth or “divinity” of
Jesus, use only the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, and are thus more extreme in
their Judaism. They describe the Nazarenes more positively as those who
accept Paul (with caution) and believe in some aspect of the divinity of
Jesus (virgin born, etc.). What we have to keep in mind in reading these
accounts from the Church fathers is that they are strongly prejudiced against
this group(s) and claim to have replaced Judaism entirely with the new
religion of Christianity, overthrowing the Torah for both Gentile and Jew.
I think it best today to use the collective term Ebionite/Nazarene in an
attempt to capture the whole of this earliest movement, and it would be
useful to revive the term Yachad as a collective designation for the
community of the Hasidim/Saints. I use Ebionite/Nazarene as an historical
designation to refer to those original, 1st century, largely Palestinian,
followers of Jesus, gathered around Yaaqov (James) in Jerusalem, who were
zealous for the Torah, but saw themselves as part of the New Covenant Way
inaugurated by their “True Teacher” Jesus. James is a key and neglected
figure in this whole picture. As the blood brother of Jesus, authority and
rights of guidance were passed on to him. When he was brutally murder in 62
CE by the High Priest Ananus (see Josephus, Antiquities 20.197ff), Simeon, a
second brother [sic “cousin” according to Hegesippus] of Jesus, took over the
leadership of the Jerusalem based movement. Clearly we have the idea here of
a blood-line dynasty, and according to the Gospel of Thomas, discovered in
1946 in upper Egypt, this dynastic succession was ordained by Jesus himself
who tells his followers who ask him who will lead them when he leaves: “No
matter where you are, you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven
and earth came into being” (GT 12). Indeed, when Simeon was crucified by the
Emperor Trajan around 106 C.E., a third brother of Jesus, Judas, took over
the leadership of the community.
As far as “beliefs” of the Ebionites, the documents of the New Testament,
critically evaluated, are among our best sources. There are fragments and
quotations surviving from their Hebrew Gospel tradition (see see A. F. J.
Klijn, Jewish-Christian Gospel Tradition, E. J. Brill, 1992), as well as the
text of “Hebrew Matthew” preserved by Ibn Shaprut, and now published in a
critical edition by George Howard (The Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, Mercer
University Press, 1995). Based on what we can reliably put together from
other sources we can say the Ebionite/Nazarene movement could be
distinguished by the following views:
1.Jesus as the Prophet like Moses, or True Teacher (but not to be confused
with YHVH God of Israel), who will anoint his Messiahs on his right and left
hand when he is revealed in power following his rejection and death. These
two figures, the Davidic Nasi (Prince of the Yachad) and Priest, will rule
with him in the Kingdom of God. 2.Disdain for eating meat and even the Temple
slaughter of animals, preferring the ideals of the pre-Flood diet and what
they took to be the original ideal of worship (see Gen 9:1-5; Jer 7:21-22;
Isa 11:9; 66:1-4). A general interest in seeking the Path reflected in the
pre-Sinai revelation, especially the time from Enoch to Noah. For example,
divorce was shunned, even though technically it was later allowed by Moses.
3.Dedication to following the whole Torah, as applicable to Israel and to
Gentiles, but through the “easy yoke” halacha of their Teacher Jesus, which
emphasized the Spirit of the Biblical Prophets in a restoration of the “True
Faith,” the Ancient Paths (Jeremiah 6:16), from which, by and large, they
believed the establishment Jewish groups of 2nd Temple times had lost.
4.Rejection of the “doctrines and traditions” of men, which they believed had
been added to the pure Torah of Moses, including scribal alterations of the
texts of Scripture (Jeremiah 8:8).
How the earliest group/s viewed Paul is unclear. By some reports he was
tolerated or accepted as one who could go to the Gentiles with a version of
the Nazarene message (Acts 15, 21). Others apparently believed he was an
apostate from the Torah and founder of a new religion—Christianity.
For further reading, see H-J Schoeps, Jewish Christianity (Philadelphia:
Fortress Press, 1969), still useful and quite readable for students.
James D. Tabor
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Web Site Copyright 1997-1998. All Rights Reserved.
Technical questions concerning this web site should be directed to the
webmaster at:
Scribe@AncientPaths.ORG
Web site developed and maintained by Electric Scribe.
www.ElectricScribe.com
Subject:
[Fwd: second messiah]
Date:
Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:36:39 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
proclus@mac.com
Subject:
second messiah
Date:
Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:53:19 -0400
From:
Randall Shortridge
Organization:
State University of New York
To:
Michael Love
CC:
Dave ,
Michael Love ,
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"Robert R. Black" <74277.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus
References:
1 , 2
I was at the bookstore the other day and noticed the authors of The
Hiram Key have put out the next book called the Second Messiah.
Anyone read it? I thumbed through it, but worried about whether I had
enough money to add it to my stack of purchases. But, now I have an
itch to go back and get it.
It had an interesting view on the origin of the Tarot, which I think
they claimed was an attempt to preserve the hidden teachings during
persections (from thumbing through).
Also, they seemed to follow this Shroud of Turin is the image of DeMolay
idea. Didn't get to see if they excavated Rosslyn Chapel.
Randall Shortridge
Subject:
second messiah
Date:
Sat, 25 Jul 1998 03:37:35 -0400
From:
"Robert R. Black" <74277.3365@compuserve.com>
To:
Randall Shortridge
CC:
Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos ,
Beth , Don Bradley ,
Dave , Gaia ,
George , Michael Love ,
rpc man ,
Andy McGuire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"R. Trent Reyolds" , Ken Shaw ,
Joe Steve Swick III
Randall,
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