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Subject:
Masonry and Knights Templar, Magic, etc.
Date:
Sun, 31 Jan 1999 01:11:03 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , 'proclus'
Hey all,
Yep, just me checkin in, letting you know I'm just wrapping up "The Hiram
Key." A fun read to be sure. Uh, I also am polishing off "The Temple and
the Lodge." Now then, why I am writing is because I just got a copy of "The
Key of Solomon the King." (!!!) YEAH!!!!!!!! It is supposed to be from
manuscripts out of the British Museum, by S. Liddell MacGregor Mathers. Can
anyone tell me much about the guy and this book. Richard Cavendish wrote
the forward. I was thrilled when I found the darn thing......Also bought
two books on the Knights Templar. The one by Peter Partner, "The Knights
Templar and their Myth," the other by Edward Burman, "The Templars: Knights
of God." Anyone know about these gents at all? The more I read into this
Medieval stuff, the more fascinated I find the Knights Templar to
be........
Kerry
P.S. I've been reading all your posts, just haven't had the access to free
time yet as I want. But trust me, we'll have us some bang up discussions.
JSW promised to talk a little about Aleister Crowley's "Book of Thoth," and
his Tarot deck. (Man his art on those cards is really sumthun) Oh yeah!
That's the other book I'm getting into, as well as a few Kabbalah books
also. Man, there just ain't enough time to eat I tells ya!
Subject:
Re: Masonry and Knights Templar, Magic, etc.
Date:
Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:18:27 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"proclus@mac.com" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts
References:
1
Hi Kerry, I read Hiram Key about the time JSW came on board here. It
was hot over on mahonri-l. It is big fun and interesting, if not
entirely factual. But hey, mythology is often much more fun than boring
facts. I loved the part about Essene manuscripts buried under the
temple keystone, and dug up by the Templars. One of these days, I'd
like to see a point by point comparison to the gold plates story.
Hiram Key did get me much more into the ancient Semitic and Canaanite
history, the Egyptian borderlands, and middle Egypt, which is
fascinating stuff. If you are reading our past posts, you will come
across it eventually.
As for Mathers, my knowledge is a little sketchy at this point...
Something about Dr. John Dee, and some angelic trasmissions. I believe
they used the obsidian magic mirror. This became the basis for the
Golden Dawn trad and the the Enochian language. That's pretty
important, no doubt. Most of what I know, I learned from Wilson,
Regardie's Eye in the Triangle, and Golden Dawn System of Magic, but I
have forgotten alot. I believe that there are some Joseph Smith
parallels in the angelic visitations as well. Maybe someone else can
fill in some details.
Regards,
proclus
Kerry Shirts wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> Yep, just me checkin in, letting you know I'm just wrapping up "The Hiram
> Key." A fun read to be sure. Uh, I also am polishing off "The Temple and
> the Lodge." Now then, why I am writing is because I just got a copy of "The
> Key of Solomon the King." (!!!) YEAH!!!!!!!! It is supposed to be from
> manuscripts out of the British Museum, by S. Liddell MacGregor Mathers. Can
> anyone tell me much about the guy and this book. Richard Cavendish wrote
> the forward. I was thrilled when I found the darn thing......Also bought
> two books on the Knights Templar. The one by Peter Partner, "The Knights
> Templar and their Myth," the other by Edward Burman, "The Templars: Knights
> of God." Anyone know about these gents at all? The more I read into this
> Medieval stuff, the more fascinated I find the Knights Templar to
> be........
>
> Kerry
> P.S. I've been reading all your posts, just haven't had the access to free
> time yet as I want. But trust me, we'll have us some bang up discussions.
> JSW promised to talk a little about Aleister Crowley's "Book of Thoth," and
> his Tarot deck. (Man his art on those cards is really sumthun) Oh yeah!
> That's the other book I'm getting into, as well as a few Kabbalah books
> also. Man, there just ain't enough time to eat I tells ya!
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
RE: Masonry and Knights Templar, Magic, etc.
Date:
Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:53:06 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , 'proclus'
----------
From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 2:18 PM
To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus@aol.com;
jswick@cris.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; Beth Quick; proclus@mac.com;
rpcman@hotmail.com; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com;
dcombe@rain.org; Beth; Kerry Shirts
Subject: Re: Masonry and Knights Templar, Magic, etc.
Hi Kerry, I read Hiram Key about the time JSW came on board here. It
was hot over on mahonri-l. It is big fun and interesting, if not
entirely factual. But hey, mythology is often much more fun than boring
facts. I loved the part about Essene manuscripts buried under the
temple keystone, and dug up by the Templars. One of these days, I'd
like to see a point by point comparison to the gold plates story.
Ooooooo, that might make for some interesting reading. Ya know, I was
utterly astounded that they claim they know where the Nasorean scrolls of
Jesus are, in that Rosslyn chapel and haven't excavated it yet!!! MAN!!!
It'll make for a lululu follow up I am sure. Man I wish I was a
multimillionaire, I'd fund em myself to see that excavation take place.
Hiram Key did get me much more into the ancient Semitic and Canaanite
history, the Egyptian borderlands, and middle Egypt, which is
fascinating stuff. If you are reading our past posts, you will come
across it eventually.
Well, yeah, sorta. Interestingly, that was the one part of their book that
didn't overconvince me at all. Their materials on the Dead Sea Scrolls was
much more interesting to me. The Egyptian stuff was rather tenuous. I
dunno.....hey it was fun to read, I just ain't convinced yet. Their
materials on the Templars was quite fun. Isn't fascinating that this book
has been labeled as sensationalistic as has The Messianic Legacy and Holy
Blood, Holy Grail, yet they all say pretty much the same thing about the
Templars? I can't wait to get into these other Templar books to see if
there are many differences of opinions....
As for Mathers, my knowledge is a little sketchy at this point...
Something about Dr. John Dee, and some angelic trasmissions. I believe
they used the obsidian magic mirror. This became the basis for the
Golden Dawn trad and the the Enochian language. That's pretty
important, no doubt. Most of what I know, I learned from Wilson,
Regardie's Eye in the Triangle, and Golden Dawn System of Magic, but I
have forgotten alot. I believe that there are some Joseph Smith
parallels in the angelic visitations as well. Maybe someone else can
fill in some details.
Hey I did a search on the Golden Dawn here on the Internet and was quite
surprised at how much there is......That may help a little. I didn't have
time to look through all the hits......some interesting stuff on the Tarot
as well......
Regards,
proclus
Be good
Mephisto
Subject:
Re: Masonry and Knights Templar, Magic, etc.
Date:
Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:44:18 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Kerry Shirts ,
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus@aol.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, Beth Quick , rpcman@hotmail.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org,
Beth , 'proclus'
___Kerry___
Yep, just me checkin in, letting you know I'm just wrapping up "The Hiram
Key." A fun read to be sure. Uh, I also am polishing off "The Temple and the
Lodge."
-----
Interesting books, although they are highly speculative. I recommend Peter
Partner, "Murdered Magicians: The Knights Templar and their Myth," or "The
New Knighthood: A History of the Order of the Temple," by Malcom Barber.
These guys would like to "gut" the Templar myth, but I am not entirely
convinced.
___Terry Shirts___
Now then, why I am writing is because I just got a copy of "The Key of
Solomon the King." (!!!) YEAH!!!!!!!! It is supposed to be from manuscripts
out of the British Museum, by S. Liddell MacGregor Mathers. Can anyone tell
me much about the guy and this book.
-----
S.L. MacGregor Mathers was one of the principle founders and movers in the
Golden Dawn, and a first-class magician and kabbalist. He purportedly
designed the entire GD Tarot in the course of a few hours one afternoon -- a
prodigious feat, as you know. The Key of Solomon the King is one of his most
famous works.
For an excellent short illustrated history of the GD, I recommend "A Golden
Dawn Scrapbook: The Rise and Fall of a Magical Order." The characters
associated with this society will amaze you.
___Kerry___
Also bought two books on the Knights Templar. The one by Peter Partner, "The
Knights Templar and their Myth," the other by Edward Burman, "The Templars:
Knights of God." Anyone know about these gents at all? The more I read into
this Medieval stuff, the more fascinated I find the Knights Templar to
be........
-----
Haven't read Burman's book. Parter's is excellent, as I have mentioned
above. FWIW, I rather believe that the Nauvoo Legion was the Mormon
incarnation of the Masonic "Knights of the Temple."
___Kerry___
JSW promised to talk a little about Aleister Crowley's "Book of Thoth," and
his Tarot deck. (Man his art on those cards is really sumthun) Oh yeah!
That's the other book I'm getting into, as well as a few Kabbalah books
also. Man, there just ain't enough time to eat I tells ya!
-----
Ach! My apologies. I've recently been "distracted by the gravity of a
thousand diversions." I'll get on this in just a bit. You are right, the
artwork for this deck is REALLY something else.
Any more thought on the Nauvoo Tarot?
Cheers,
JSW
Subject:
Sufi Class Notes 2/4/99
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:08:56 -0600 (CST)
From:
kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
mutants@iname.com
Sufi Class 2/4/99
Dallas, Texas
I told Mr. Madaani that in my effort to commit myself to the Work of the Path,
I try to practice the Rememberance of God constantly, but sometimes I feel
myself getting tense and manic. I asked how I can tell if I'm slipping over
into a pathological state of obsessive/compulsive disorder and how to guard
against it.
Mr. Madaani said that I need to pay careful attention to the instructions
as they are given and not try to jump ahead with only a general high level
introduction to the basics. He likened it to learning from a teacher that
growing herbs will benefit all with taste and medicine, and then going out
and buying herb seeds in no particular order or plan and then just sowing
them in a randomly chosen location and waiting for the crop to appear. This
will bring nothing but disapointment and loss of confidence in the teaching.
One must wait for the teacher to give specific instructions on what and where
and when and how to plant.
What is your goal? Your goal is to follow Jesus in the same path that he
walked to becoming God. Jesus became God, and it is your goal to do as he did.
Everything you do must be towards this goal. If your goal is to become a
great scientist to don't study 24 hours a day. You study for a certain
period at regualar intervals, but then you change your focus and take care
of yourself with rest and play and healthful diet. The non-study activities
are absolutely necessary to fulfilling your goal and are carried out for the
single purpose of the goal. Even when resting and playing the goal is still
"present" with us. The same is true for our goal. Do whatever you are doing
with your whole heart and complete "presence". This is in itself true worship
and "Rememberance of God". The only time lost is the time spent worshiping
the false and empty "Images" of our own imagination. Turn away from the idols
and back to God by always being "present" right here and right now. Always
feel and taste the breath, always be in your body, always be present.
What is it that we feel is missing in our lives that makes us restlessly
seek religious and other kinds of activities? We feel that once as children
we were whole and complete, but now something has gone teribly wrong and we
don't know who we are anymore. Take a lentil seed. It is whole and complete
in itself. It has stability, constancy and balance. When the seed germinates
it loses all those characteristics and is in a state of constant change and
turmoil, until the end when it returns to the state of "seed" again. Our
bodies are like the lentil plant that grows and changes and dies. But the
actual "I" (arabic-"Iman") is eternal, clear, luminous and unchanging.
It is up to us to gather ourselves back into the point of origin from which
our bodies sprang, and become "I" again. The "I" has all the characteristics
we attribute to "God". The Path to God is insi de of us, not outside of us.
"Once the Mulla Nasrudin once seen by his neighbor on his hands and knees
franticly seaching for something in the street. The neighbor came out to
see what was happening. 'What are you looking for Nasrudin?'? asked the
neighbor. 'The gold coin that is my life savings' said the mulla. The
neibhbor immediately turned to helping Nasrudin search among the cobblestones.
Finally the neighbor asked 'where where you when you dropped it'? Nasrudin
said 'In my bedroom'. The astonished neighbor blurted out 'Why then are we
looking for it out here in the street'! Nasrudin said 'Because the light is
better out here'.
Kenneth Shaw 2/5/99
Dallas, Texas
----- End Included Message -----
Subject:
[Fwd: Early Mormonism and The Magic World view]
Date:
Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:48:04 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Early Mormonism and The Magic World view
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:41:30 -0500 (EST)
From:
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com
To:
Andy.McGuire@psc.bellhowell.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, rds@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU,
ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org,
74277.3365@COMPUSERVE.COM, timquick@cwnet.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net
In a message dated 2/10/99 10:06:19 AM Central Standard Time,
Andy.McGuire@psc.bellhowell.com writes:
> ...and when Quinn got around to passing out thanks, two names jump out at
> me...
>
> Art deHoyos -- Howdy, Art.
And a "howdy" back! A note from the peanut gallery: Although the book is
improved, I still disagree with Mike Quinn on the role Freemasonry played on
the endowment. I see Masonry as playing a much bigger role than Mike does. I
might add that although he sites me, quotes me, and uses material I gave him,
he *ignored* material I provided to him that contradicted his views. Two
examples:
(1) Mike does not feel that early Freemasons believed that the Fraternity or
its rituals included the concept of a "heavenly ascent."
I provided Mike with a quote from a manuscript ritual written during Joseph
Smith's lifetime. As part of the Entered Apprentice initiation, the candidate
was told:
"...the ceremonies of gaining admission within these wall are
emblematic of events which all mankind must sooner or later
experience. They are emblematic at least in some small degree
of your great and last change; that is, of your exit from this
world, to the world to come."
Similar words are still found in the rituals of several States, including
Illinois.
(2) Mike does not feel that early Freemasons believed that the Fraternity
provided any benefit in the hereafter. Allow me to simply give the title of
an old Masonic book I own, which was printed in 1768:
"Masonry the Turnpike-Road to Happiness in this Life, and
Eternal Happiness Hereafter" (Dublin: Printed by James Hoey,
senior, at the Mercury in Skinner-Row, MDCCLXVIII)
Oh well....
---Art deHoyos.'.
Subject:
Early Mormonism and The Magic World view
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:51:25 -0500
From:
"McGuire, Andy"
To:
'Michael Love' ,
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , rpc man ,
onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus ,
Beth ,
I read the preface to Quinn's book last night. Looks like he is taking off
the kid gloves and getting ready to do battle. Here are some of the points
I recall reading:
-In the first edition, he qualified many statements with 'maybe' and
'possibly'. This was at the urging of the editor and publisher, who did not
want the book to endanger Quinn's position at BYU. In the new edition, this
tentative positioning is abandoned.
-In the notes to the preface, he took some of the FARMS polemicists head on,
pointing out errors in their reviews.
-Took an additional jab at the polmisisct be saying he retitled the section
"The Salamander" as "The Salamander Forgery". Why? So those too lazy to
read the CONTENTS of this section would not erroneously assume Quinns'
original position on the Salamander Letter.
...and when Quinn got around to passing out thanks, two names jump out at
me...
Art deHoyos -- Howdy, Art.
Tim Rathbone -- Didn't we bounce him from the Mutants list for being ill
behaved? Funny.....
As anyone else reading this? If anyone wants to order it......
http://www.signaturebooksinc.com/magic.htm
-AJ
Subject:
Re: [Fwd: Early Mormonism and The Magic World view]
Date:
Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:36:55 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"proclus@mac.com" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , ArtdeHoyos@aol.com
References:
1
Worldview is the top of my booklist. I'm anxious to finally read this book.
Michael Love wrote:
> Andy.McGuire@psc.bellhowell.com writes:
>
> > ...and when Quinn got around to passing out thanks, two names jump out at
> > me...
> >
> > Art deHoyos -- Howdy, Art.
Hi Art! I hope that you are well. I must send Tim a note. I really
enjoyed his archives. It was a pain dealing soley by email though.
Someone needs to hire Tim a webmaster.
> And a "howdy" back! A note from the peanut gallery: Although the book is
> improved, I still disagree with Mike Quinn on the role Freemasonry played on
> the endowment. I see Masonry as playing a much bigger role than Mike does. I
> might add that although he sites me, quotes me, and uses material I gave him,
> he *ignored* material I provided to him that contradicted his views. Two
> examples:
Actually, this sounds like something that I would do ;-}.
> (1) Mike does not feel that early Freemasons believed that the Fraternity or
> its rituals included the concept of a "heavenly ascent."
IMHO, this is a shocking omission.
> (2) Mike does not feel that early Freemasons believed that the Fraternity
> provided any benefit in the hereafter. Allow me to simply give the title of
> an old Masonic book I own, which was printed in 1768:
This is one of the reasons that I did not become a historian, an
archeologist. I definitely think that these academics are way too
cautious. I would have been excommunicated, if I had chosen the
humanities. I get more comfort from science, with its dispassioned
results. It doesn't matter if you love them or hate them. They just
stand there, uncaring, unknowing, unhuman.
Does Quinn think Jacob's ladder is a Mormon innovation? Why the heck
did he do this?
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
FW: Quinn Book
Date:
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:07:41 -0500
From:
"McGuire, Andy"
To:
"McGuire, Andy" , proclus@mac.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com,
jswick@cris.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org,
74277.3365@compuserve.com, timquick@cwnet.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net
Something from another mail list that I hope will be of interest here...
> "McGuire, Andy" wrote:
>
> > I have heard
> > (from Sandra Tanner, among others) that more Mormons leaving the church
> turn
> > to Paganism than any other belief system. But we don't use Magick to
> find
> > treasure or love. We use it to fill the considerable gaps left by a
> > traditional religion that has lost all sense of celebration and of
> personal
> > empowerment. We also use it to take the place of Therapists and other
> > approved gurus of our corporate society. Even those who use stress
> relief
> > excercises based on breathing patterns or deep relaxation are engaged in
> > Folk Magick. Why? Most of these exersices are derived from occult
> > meditation techniques.
> >
>
> Andy,
>
> I don't doubt what you're saying, I just don't understand the
> relationship
> between the occult and meditation techniques. Care to explain?
>
>
> [McGuire, Andy]
> First off, Jay, I love the tag "Osiris" that was attached to your e-mail.
>
> When Quinn introduces us to the concept of Folk Magic in his book, the
> undercurrent of all the tools and practices is that of material benefit.
> Searching for treasure, water witching, placing a spell on the
> competition's rifle so you can win the Turkey Shoot... Later he moves his
> discussion into the arena of "revelation" as understood in the modern
> church.
>
> Many (not all) modern practitioners of magick are doing it for Spiritual
> Growth (or some other form of personal development). All "Occult" paths
> for this sort of work involve some sort of meditation. The common
> formula, worked on a stage at a time over days, weeks or months, is to
> 1-Learn to totally relax the body 2-Control or at least concentrate on the
> breathing 3-Empty the mind 4-Once the mind is emptied, concentrate on
> something (energy flow, some sort of symbol, etc)
>
> Why? Many occult systems teach that you can't really learn a concept
> without some form of revelation. How do you get the revelation?
> Meditation. Why meditation? BECAUSE IT WORKS. Don't know why. Just
> know it does.
>
> EXAMPLES
> After accomplishing steps 1-3 above, step 4 could take one of these
> forms...
> ONE - If I am studying the tarot, I concentrate on the image of one of the
> cards whose meanings I am trying to learn.
> TWO - I am trying to reverse a bad habit. So I visualize myself not doing
> "IT" or doing something else instead of "IT". This can include habits of
> a spiritual nature.
> THREE - I am a hopeless Golden Dawn fanatic, so I visualize white light
> coursing through my body, going through the Sephiroth of the Middle Pillar
> as it does so.
> FOUR - I am still very Mormon, so I meditate on the atonement, the love of
> god, or on a passage of scripture and what it means to me in my life.
> FIVE (something I really did about 8 years ago) - I am unemployed. This
> is the first time I have had to hit the streets and look for a job. The
> though scares me to death. I want a certain type of job, but I don't have
> the confidence or experience to go look for it. So in my meditations I
> visualize myself overcoming my fears, hitting the streets, and BY GOD,
> GETTING THAT JOB. (It worked. I count this a success less for getting the
> job than for building my ego and self worth.)
> SIX - Replace "concentration" in step 4 above with "sexual stimulation"
> and *SHAZAM* - you have Tantra. (Best book on this is by Christopher
> Hyatt, sold by New Falcon Publications).
> SEVEN - Replace "concentration" in step 4 above with prayer, or opening
> yourself to the spirit.
>
> Clear as mud?
>
> -Andy, lost somewhere between Provo and Malkuth
Subject:
FW: Quinn Book
Date:
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:06:44 -0500
From:
"McGuire, Andy"
To:
"McGuire, Andy" , proclus@mac.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com,
jswick@cris.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org,
74277.3365@compuserve.com, timquick@cwnet.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net
Howdy guys,
Here is some stuff I posted on another mail list that may be of interest
here. Names have been changed to protect the innocent.
[McGuire, Andy] (From someone else on the list...)
> I'm about 40 pages into the book. For a long time I have believed that
> things
> like Tarot cards are merely a crutch for getting in touch with universal
> consciousness (i.e.God). I would put the seer stone in the same category.
> I
> do believe, however, that searching for material things is not the best
> use
> for connection into the continuum. Often I hear people say, "If she is
> psychic, why doesn't she win the lottery." I think the answer to that is
> that
> is not the purpose of our ability to connect. I think our intent makes a
> difference to how well we connect. Feedback? It's an interesting book.
>
> [McGuire, Andy] I'm almost as far into Quinn's book as you are. Your
> comments on the Tarot interest me because...
> -I have been doing Tarot readings for a few years new (strictly for fun,
> not as a 'real' psychic).
> -I just inherited a small collection of Tarot decks that belonged to my
> best friend (Rick, whose death kicked me out of the closet).
> -I am currently enrolled in a Tarot class here in Provo (or is that
> Pervo?).
>
> While I would classify a Peep Stone or the pronouncements of an
> Astrological Almanac as crutches, I see the Tarot in a different light.
> The phrase that comes to mind is 'Meditation Tool'. If a Tarot reading
> does not actually tell you anything, it at least gets you to look at a
> problem from new angles.
>
> My impression from the first chapter of Quinn's book is a 'Back to the
> Future' sensation. I see us moving slowly from a Churched society back to
> one that is more attune to a modern version of Folk Magick. I have heard
> (from Sandra Tanner, among others) that more Mormons leaving the church
> turn to Paganism than any other belief system. But we don't use Magick to
> find treasure or love. We use it to fill the considerable gaps left by a
> traditional religion that has lost all sense of celebration and of
> personal empowerment. We also use it to take the place of Therapists and
> other approved gurus of our corporate society. Even those who use stress
> relief excercises based on breathing patterns or deep relaxation are
> engaged in Folk Magick. Why? Most of these exersices are derived from
> occult meditation techniques.
>
> -Andy
>
> PS -- http://www.enol.com/~bmork/PUC/puc_0.html
Subject:
[Fwd: Quinn Book]
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:59:04 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
proclus
Subject :
Re: Quinn Book
Date:
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:19:26 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus ,
rpc man , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus ,
Beth ,
References:
1
Kerry Shirts wrote:
>"Now I've got time to contribute to this wonderful group, since
> the Walter Martin group kicked me off their list for stabbing their hero in
> the heart with his idiot double standard self righteous hypocrisy.....I
> suppose he says the same about me though - GRIN!" Shirts
Cool! I would have loved to have been a fly on the virtual wall.
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Quinn Book
Date:
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:54:56 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
"McGuire, Andy" ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , proclus ,
rds , Beth any ,
rpc man , onandagus ,
dcombe , George Head ,
George Head
___Andy___
Andy, lost somewhere between Provo and Malkuth
-----
Interesting mail, Andy --- especially the sig line!
Joe Swick
"Somewhere on the Road to Damcar"
Subject:
Re: More on the "Green Man" of the Qur'an
Date:
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:10:41 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
donmeh@List-Server.net, Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge , Beth any ,
proclus , rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus ,
References:
1
> "Some have identified Khezr with St. George -- but he might more
> accurately be seen as both St. George and the dragon in one figure.
In this connection, some may want to check my essay at the address
below. The green man appears in the story Sir Gawain and the Green
Knight. There are also reversals between Gawain and the Green Man and
many parallels with the Galahad story. Nature is juxtaposed with the
divine in the tale, even within the very Queen Guinevere herself.
I think that there are strong indications that this story represents the
symbolic re-enactment of a "secret ritual". I am reminded that Idries
Shah implicated the sufis in the founding of the chivalric orders. Now
these things are discussed in this interesting forum. It seems that the
beads of mercury are rejoining indeed. We have come full circle at
last.
https://members.tripod.com/~proclus/essay.html
Regards,
proclus
> Chaverim,
>
> Just a little something I read last night:
>
> (Wilson, Peter Lamborn, "Sacred Drift - Essays on the Margins of Islam",
> San-Francisco, 1993, p. 140 -- in the last essay, titled "Sacred
> Drift", and dealing mainly with the concept of 'Travel' is Sufism. This
> book, and the author's previous one titled "Scandal", are both excellent
> thought provoking readings from a 'renegade scholar' in search of
> 'poetic facts'. The paragraph quoted is, of course, out of context, and
> should be read likewise. )
>
> "Some have identified Khezr with St. George -- but he might more
> accurately be seen as both St. George and the dragon in one figure.
> Nature, for esoteric Islam, does not need to be pinned down like some
> biology specimen or household pest -- there exists no deep moral
> struggle between Nature and Order in the Islamic worldview. The
> "spirits" of Nature, such as Khezr and the djinn -- who are in sense the
> principles of natural power -- recognize in the Muhammadan Light that
> green portion of the spectrum upon which they themselves are also
> situated. If Christian moralism "fixes" Nature by "killing it," Islam
> proceeds by conversion -- or rather, by transmutation.
>
> "Nature maintains its measure of independence from merely human and
> moral sphere, while both realms are bathed in the integrative and
> salvific light of Muhammadan knowledge. Nowadays Khezr might well be
> induced to reappear as the patron of modern militant
> eco-enviromentalism, since he represents the fulcrum or nexus between
> wild(er)ness and the human/humane. Rather than attempt to moralize
> Nature (which never works because Nature is amoral), Khadirian
> Enviromentalism would rejoice simulaneously both in its utter wildness
> and its "meaningfulness" -- Nature as tajalli (the "shining through" of
> the divine into creation; the manifestation of each thing as divine
> light), Nature as an aesthetic of realization.
>
> "Khezr is the embodiment of the hadith 'Three things of this world
> delight the heart: water, green things, and a beautiful face.' He is
> also, as we shall see, the very patron and personification of Sufi
> travel."
>
>
> B'shalom,
>
> Eylon
>
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
RE: Quinn Book
Date:
Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:14:13 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
"McGuire, Andy" ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , proclus ,
rds , Beth any ,
rpc man , onandagus ,
dcombe , George Head ,
George Head ,
----------
From: Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@cris.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 5:54 PM
To: McGuire, Andy; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds;
Robert R. Black; Beth; Kerry Shirts; proclus; rds; Beth any; rpc man;
onandagus; dcombe; George Head; George Head
Subject: Re: Quinn Book
___Andy___
Andy, lost somewhere between Provo and Malkuth
-----
Interesting mail, Andy --- especially the sig line!
Joe Swick
"Somewhere on the Road to Damcar"
Don't any of you feel too bad. I'm stuck in the snow in the Rockies - GRIN!
Kerry A. "Now I've got time to contribute to this wonderful group, since
the Walter Martin group kicked me off their list for stabbing their hero in
the heart with his idiot double standard self righteous hypocrisy.....I
suppose he says the same about me though - GRIN!" Shirts
Subject:
Joseph Smith's Ring
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:54:55 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Kerry Shirts , proclus
Hello:
This is a repost of a mail I sent to a private list some months back. I
thought it might be of some interest to those ARMites who may not have seen
it previously. --- JSW
On two separate occasions that I am aware of, Joseph Smith used a ring as an
image of eternity --of an "eternal round" which has no beginning and no end.
The first time was in 1841, and the second in 1844 (TPJS, p. 181, 354).
In relation to this, I though you might enjoy the following Ring Service
from the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. In one of the
high points of the Scottish Rite degrees, the Brother is presented with a
gold band, which he is told to always wear. Upon his death, there is a
ceremony in which this ring is presented to a close family member or friend.
Note the emphasis on the eternity of our relationships with those we love:
"As a part to the solemn and impressive ceremonies...while he was kneeling
at the sacred altar...and surrounded by Brethren of the Rite, he was
presented with a gold ring, which was placed upon the wedding finger of his
left hand, as a symbol of the alliance that he had that evening contracted
with Virtue and the Virtuous. This ring had inscribed within it the
legend --'Whom virtue unites, death cannot separate.'
"The ring, being endless, is an emblem of eternity, and with its motto
symbolizes the eternal nature of Virtue and Truth. He was charged never to
part with it, during his life, and at death only to his wife, his eldest
son, or his dearest friend. And now, in accordance with that covenant. and
the solemn usages of our Order, it becomes my duty to perform the last ...
ceremony connected with this ring.
"...in the name of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry,
and in the name of your dear departed.... I present you with this memento
and with it ...[the] condolence of his brethren, with whom, in life, he was
united. I trust that when you look upon this ring, you will always be
reminded of the great truth contained in the legend: 'Whom Virtue unites,
death cannot separate.' ("Offices of a Lodge of Sorrow and Ring Service of
the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry," pp. 21-2).
The above wording is from the ceremony as it was performed in the late
1800's. However, please keep in mind that the degree in which the ring is
bestowed was a part of the Morin working and is found in the Francken
manuscript (1783), with a charge to the Brother almost identical to that
given in the ring ceremony above. Scottish Rite Masonry was established in
New York some years before the birth of Joseph Smith. Further, the degree is
mentioned in Bernard's _Light on Masonry_ (1829, Utica). My suspicion is
that the above Ring Ceremony is at least as old as the early 1800's,
although I have not yet traced it back.
Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III
32° A&ASR, Valley of Salt Lake, Orient of Utah
-----
Below are Joseph Smith's own comments regarding the ring as a symbol of
eternity, as related in the various extant accounts of the 7 April 1844
discourse:
I am dwelling on the immutibility of the spirit of man, is it logic to say
the spirit of man had a begining & yet had no end, it does not have a
begining or end, my ring is like the Exhistanc of man it has no begining or
end, if cut into their would be a begining & end, so with man if it had a
begining it will have an end, if I am right I might say God never had power
to create the spirit of man, God himself could not create himself.
Intelligence is Eternal & it is self exhisting, (Joseph Smith, as quoted,
WWJ, 7 April 1844)
-----
I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the
im[mor]t. Sp. bec. it has no beging. Suppose you cut it into but as the
D[evil] lives there wod. be an end all the fools & wise men from the beging.
of creation who say that man had begin-they must have an end & then the doc
of annihilitn. wod. be true-but if I am right I mit. with boldness proclaim
from the housetop that God never had power to create the Sp of Man at all-it
is ne God himself cod. not create himself-intelligence is self existent it
is a sp. from age to end & there is no creatn abt. it (Joseph Smith, as
quoted, Thomas Bullock Report, 7 April 1844)
-----
Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet have a beginning
because if a spirit have a beginning it will have an end-good
logic-illustrated by his ring. All the fools learned & wise men that comes
and tells that man has a beginning proves that [p.360] he must have an end
and if that doctrine is true then the doctrine of annihilation is true. But
if I am right then I might be bold to say that God never did have power to
create the spirit of man at all. He could not create himself-Intelligence
exists upon a selfexistent principle-is a spirit from age to age & no
creation about it (Joseph Smith, as quoted, William Clayton Report, 7 April
1844)
-----
I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man-the
immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then
it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one
eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it has a
beginning it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from
the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning,
prove that it must have an end: and if that doctrine is true, then the
doctrine of annihilation would be true But if I am right, I might with
boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never had the power to create
the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence
is eternal, and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from
age to age, and there is no creation about it. (Joseph Smith, Standard
Amalgamation, 7 April 1844)
ERASTUS SNOW
The course of God, we are told by the prophet Nephi, is one eternal round;
that, like eternity, it has neither beginning nor end, and is illustrated in
the Book of Abraham by the hieroglyphic of the circle. You may start upon
this ring at any given point, and in traversing it you will come to the same
point--it is without beginning, without end.. (JD 2:23; October 1879)
RE: Welcome Michael Pierce!
Date:
Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:11:59 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" ,
"ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" , 'proclus'
----------
From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:24 AM
To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus@aol.com;
jswick@cris.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; Beth Quick;
proclus@mac.com; rpcman@hot ma il .c om ; onandagus@webtv.net;
Neoptolmus@aol.com; dcombe@rain.org; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce
Subject: Welcome Michael Pierce!
Please welcome Michael Pierce to the circle! Some of you may know him
from Shulemna etc.
Michael, we are an informal list. We have chosen not to use a
listserver. This means that you must hit "Reply All" when you want to
reply to the list. Our most recent discussions are found at the
following address.
discus19.html
That's it, and welcome.
Kerry notes:
Welcome of great Michael (gee, a name after the archangel, how do you rate?
GRIN! Well heck man, I named my kid Michael, so that outta count for
something.....) We'll have some fun discussions now that Swick and I have
decided ARM is the "arm"pit of newsgroups for now - laugh.....yeah that
makes me think I am almighty important, but I don't really. I've been
heavily involved in a Dead Sea Scrolls discussion group and will continue
to do so, as well as post heavily here for a bit. I still want to explore
the Tarot a bit more.
Kerry A. Shirts
Subject:
RE: Quinn Book
Date:
Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:05:44 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge , Beth any ,
rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts ,
'Michael Love'
----------
From: Michael Love[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 6:19 PM
To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick
III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man;
onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black; Theurgus;
Beth; Kerry Shirts
Subject: Re: Quinn Book
Kerry Shirts wrote:
>"Now I've got time to contribute to this wonderful group, since
> the Walter Martin group kicked me off their list for stabbing their hero
in
> the heart with his idiot double standard self righteous hypocrisy.....I
> suppose he says the same about me though - GRIN!" Shirts
Cool! I would have loved to have been a fly on the virtual wall.
Kerry:
Oh, I dunno.....I became rather obnoxious when he started telling me that
though Constatine was a Murderer, a usurper of authority as taking on the
title of bishop on his own, and the making of pagan statutes as well as
ripping off his own country to build up a city (Constantinople), he could
STILL be considered a perfectly good Christian, while Joseph Smith the
money digger was damned to utter hell, for such a small infraction as this
money digging thingy. So I took him to task in no polite vein of his
double standard. He Boo-hoooed and I was kicked off the list. Oh well......
Kerry A. Shirts
Subject:
Angelic Mediators
Date:
Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:13:59 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" ,
"ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" , 'proclus'
Here is a recent little bit of research I did. Comments? Cares? Actions?
GRIN!
Just got back from a road trip for the last two days (didja all miss me?
GRIN!). Anyway, uh, I read Alan F. Segal's article "The Risen Christ and
the Angelic Mediator Figures in Light of Qumran," in Charlesworth's book
"Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls," Doubleday, (1992): 302-328. I want to
just make a quick observation and then we can take it from there.
Segal, after reviewing the materials earlier in our century on the idea
that Christ became a mediating angel after his resurrection, discusses the
idea of the "Son of Man," and the human figure as becoming an angel. Or
rather, perhaps, being an angel. He notes that Daniel 12:3 demonstrates the
righteous shall be like the stars (kakokaubeam - bad transliteration, but
you understand why) that shine in the heavens. (Segal, p. 305). He further
notes that the angelic forms of 1 Enoch (in the scrolls) show they are past
dead heroes, martyrs even former patriarchs! (p. 306, Moses especially, pp.
310-312; Michael, and of course, Enoch as well as Abraham believe it or
not, see pg. 310 ).
Segal then notes that 1 Enoch 62:15 states that the elect shall shine as
stars and wear white glorious garments, and 1 Enoch 104:2 says the same
thing, and that they shall be like the angels of heaven. R. H. Charles in
his book on the Pseudepigrapha noted that this parallel of shining like
lights in heaven directs us to Daniel 12:3 and 4 Ezra 7:97, 125. Charles
notes on this last passage is most interesting (pg. 589, note 97) - the
language is based on Dan. 12:3 and it is applied to the righteous in an
eschatalogical connexion in Matt. 13:43 (which from the Greek reads
literally "tote ho dikaioi eklamp hos ho helios ..." - "Then the righteous
will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of the Father" - Jay P. Green,
Sr., "Interlinear Greek-English New Test.," 3rd ed., 1996)
He then notes other places in Enoch where the righteous are described as
resplendent as lights of fire, etc. And he compares this various glories to
1 Corinthians 15:41 where Paul says the righteous spiritual bodies are
compared to stars, which diminish from each other in glory. (again, the
Greek literally reads "aster gar asteros diapheri en doxa" - "for star
differs from star in glory") He notes another scholar who compared the
righteous resurrection of stars and angels as equivilant conceptions. In
the earlier religion the stars were regarded as gods.
Now then, what interested me was the fact that this idea of being made
stars or even like stars is certainly in the earlier Egyptian religion,
where Pharaoh is many times depicted in the Coffin Texts as becoming one of
the imperishable stars after his death. (I've got many references to this
which I will dig out later) Also in line with this is the recent
discoveries of Bavual that the Great Pyramid's shafts align with the stars
of the Big Dipper and Orion. (Their book "The Orion Mystery," was quite a
fun read)
Sooooooo. we may literally be children of the stars as well as stardust,
and return from whence we came..... Who knows? I think the ancient ideas
here in the scrolls are most interesting as they appear to both (the
scrolls and the Bible) come from the ancient Egyptian conceptions.......
I'll do more study on this and keep you up to par.......
Kerry A. "twinkle, twinkle little star, how I wonder who you are" Shirts
Subject:
The Satan Principle in Numbers 22?!
Date:
Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:17:14 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" ,
"ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" , 'proclus'
A guy I correspond with frequently in the Dead Sea Scrolls discussion group
wrote:
MEH said: Interestingly enough here in Numbers we also find the OT's first
"Son of Man" mention, as well as the first mention of "Shatan" the angel of
the Lord (as obstructing/opposing agent).
Sooooooo, I responded accordingly......... Do we have any here who are into
the Hebrew and Greek meanings of the scriptures? Or shall we all just tango
with mysticism and Tarot as well as Kabbalah for awhile as well?! GRIN! We
ought to anyway.......
Kerry says: This is interesting...... when we read "God" as doing the
talking in Numbers 22:9 for example, it is the Hebrew word "Elohim,"
clearly the God of the Bible, not as an adversary. This same God, is spoken
in Numbers 23:22 where we read of the opposing from the "angel of the
Lord." Now the Hebrew for "angel of the Lord," is "Malek Yhwh." (as I read
it in Kohlenberger's "Interlinear Hebrew/English Old Testament" using the
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensian Hebrew text)
Clearly this is not the person "Satan," as a classical sense understands
"Satan," as say when he does appear by name in Job 1:6 where the Hebrew
word is "Satan," from meaning to accuse, or the adversary. However, the
word at Numbers 22:22 is "Satan," as an "adversary," which is an action on
this point of the angel. So this is most interesting! As Harris notes in
his "Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament," Vol. 2:874, "...Angel of
Yahweh might be described or even identify himself as a satan, when
opposing Balaam."
At Matt. 4:10 the Greek word is "Satana," clearly used for a person of
Satan himself, as opposing to the concept of being in an adversarial
position as at Numbers 22:22. In the New Testament, the Greek word used for
"adversary," is usually "antidikos," as in a court of law. (Kohlenberger,
"The Greek-English Concordance to the New Test." (1997): 61) The Greek word
used in the Septuagint (the Greek O.T.) is "diabelein auton" = "withstand
him." (Lancelot Brenton, "The Septuagint with Apocrypha," p. 207) This is
not a proper name of Satan, rather an action against someone as an
adversary. This is really quite an interesting idea you brought forward
here! Jesus when addressing Satan as a person clearly used the Greek
"Satana." Well, I mean the NT uses that Greek word, not Jesus himself,
since it is unlikely he actually spoke Greek, although Fitzmyer has an
article which shows it could have been otherwise.
Interestingly, Spiros Zodhiates in his book "The Complete Word Study
Dictionary of the New Testament," 1992): 419 notes that Satan is called by
name, which word is "diabolos," meaning the "devil," properly as in Matt
chs 4, 13, 25; Luke chs 4, 8; John chs. 6, 8, 13, etc. This is not the same
word as a proper name as used at Numbers 22:22, thus showing perhaps a
concept rather than a personal person adversary against God, right? Am I
reading and understanding the Greek and Hebrew correctly here? As I read
Zodhiates "Lexical Aids to the New Testament," p. 1678, in his
"Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible," I find him noting that the devil falsely
slanders and accuses God, which is a different thing than being an
adversary as physical action, isn't it? After all, the angel standing there
with the drawn sword as an action figure is the adversary, however, the
angel is not identified as the adversary, "Satan," as the "diabolos"
himself, hence the difference, at least as I see it. Correct me if I am
wrong.
Kerry A. Shirts
Subject:
Moroni 10:4-5 - A NIFTY Comment
Date:
Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:20:13 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" ,
"ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" , 'proclus'
I'm in the mood to share, so here ya all go.........enjoy, I did.......
Kerry A. Shirts
------------------------------
Philosophical Reinterpretations of Moroni 10:4-5
By A. LeGrand Richards (Grandson of THE LeGrand Richards)
The Rationalist
"And when you have read or thought of these things, I would
suggest that you consider if it can be proven true. And if you can begin
from undoubtable intuitions, adhering precisely to the principles of
logic and mathematics, you can test to see if it is true.
"And if it is either a self-evident principle or a principle
logically derived from other self-evident principles, then you can be
assured that it is indeed true."
The Empiricist
"And when you shall observe these things, I would exhort you to
remain tentative. And if you will design an experiment, with an
objective mind, attempting to control every possible chance of bias, you
can test to see if it is false.
"And if it fails to survive an adequately designed empirical
test, you can know that a hypothesis is not true. You may not know that
any hypothesis is absolutely true, but you can tell if it is more or less
confirmed by experience through proper observation and experiment."
The Pragmatist
"And after you have tried these things, I would urge that you
observe very closely their consequences, to see if they bring about
desired results. Don't worry whether or not they are ultimately true or
not true, ask only if they work or are useful.
"And if they allow you to have greater control over your
environment or are in some other way useful, you will know that they work
and are practical for continued use, but you may need to change your
opinion at any time in the future."
The Authoritarian
"And when you have been shown or told these things, I would
exhort you to examine who said them. And if they have been spoken by a
true authority or are completely consistent with everything other true
authorities have spoken, then believe that they are true.
"And everything spoken by true authorities should be accepted
without asking any further questions or having any further doubts."
But Moroni declared:
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that
ye would ask God, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true;
and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith
in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the
Holy Ghost.
"And by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of all
things."
Subject:
Re: Angelic Mediators
Date:
Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:23:37 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus ,
rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts
References:
1
I loved this. Keep it coming. I'm off to bed. More later
Regards,
proclus
Kerry Shirts wrote:
>
> Here is a recent little bit of research I did. Comments? Cares? Actions?
> GRIN!
>
> Just got back from a road trip for the last two days (didja all miss me?
> GRIN!). Anyway, uh, I read Alan F. Segal's article "The Risen Christ and
> the Angelic Mediator Figures in Light of Qumran," in Charlesworth's book
> "Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls," Doubleday, (1992): 302-328. I want to
> just make a quick observation and then we can take it from there.
>
> Segal, after reviewing the materials earlier in our century on the idea
> that Christ became a mediating angel after his resurrection, discusses the
> idea of the "Son of Man," and the human figure as becoming an angel. Or
> rather, perhaps, being an angel. He notes that Daniel 12:3 demonstrates the
> righteous shall be like the stars (kakokaubeam - bad transliteration, but
> you understand why) that shine in the heavens. (Segal, p. 305). He further
> notes that the angelic forms of 1 Enoch (in the scrolls) show they are past
> dead heroes, martyrs even former patriarchs! (p. 306, Moses especially, pp.
> 310-312; Michael, and of course, Enoch as well as Abraham believe it or
> not, see pg. 310 ).
>
> Segal then notes that 1 Enoch 62:15 states that the elect shall shine as
> stars and wear white glorious garments, and 1 Enoch 104:2 says the same
> thing, and that they shall be like the angels of heaven. R. H. Charles in
> his book on the Pseudepigrapha noted that this parallel of shining like
> lights in heaven directs us to Daniel 12:3 and 4 Ezra 7:97, 125. Charles
> notes on this last passage is most interesting (pg. 589, note 97) - the
> language is based on Dan. 12:3 and it is applied to the righteous in an
> eschatalogical connexion in Matt. 13:43 (which from the Greek reads
> literally "tote ho dikaioi eklamp hos ho helios ..." - "Then the righteous
> will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of the Father" - Jay P. Green,
> Sr., "Interlinear Greek-English New Test.," 3rd ed., 1996)
>
> He then notes other places in Enoch where the righteous are described as
> resplendent as lights of fire, etc. And he compares this various glories to
> 1 Corinthians 15:41 where Paul says the righteous spiritual bodies are
> compared to stars, which diminish from each other in glory. (again, the
> Greek literally reads "aster gar asteros diapheri en doxa" - "for star
> differs from star in glory") He notes another scholar who compared the
> righteous resurrection of stars and angels as equivilant conceptions. In
> the earlier religion the stars were regarded as gods.
>
> Now then, what interested me was the fact that this idea of being made
> stars or even like stars is certainly in the earlier Egyptian religion,
> where Pharaoh is many times depicted in the Coffin Texts as becoming one of
> the imperishable stars after his death. (I've got many references to this
> which I will dig out later) Also in line with this is the recent
> discoveries of Bavual that the Great Pyramid's shafts align with the stars
> of the Big Dipper and Orion. (Their book "The Orion Mystery," was quite a
> fun read)
>
> Sooooooo. we may literally be children of the stars as well as stardust,
> and return from whence we came..... Who knows? I think the ancient ideas
> here in the scrolls are most interesting as they appear to both (the
> scrolls and the Bible) come from the ancient Egyptian conceptions.......
> I'll do more study on this and keep you up to par.......
>
> Kerry A. "twinkle, twinkle little star, how I wonder who you are" Shirts
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
RE: Angelic Mediators
Date:
Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:59:40 -0500
From:
"McGuire, Andy"