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Subject:
Re: Sufi notes 8/13/99
Date:
Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:48:19 -0400
From:
Randall Shortridge
Organization:
State University of New York
To:
Rumi007
CC:
Beth Quick ,
74277.3365@compuserve.com, Student007@msn.com,
ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com, proclus@mac.com,
enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com,
trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, timquick@cwnet.com,
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
tudent007@msn.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3
Rumi007 wrote:
>
> The American idea of freedom does not take into acount
> the biological reality of *conditioning*. Conditioning is
> the mechanical stimulous-response operation of the nervous
> system. The "nafs" is the purely mechanical animal brain, and
> is nothing more a randomly accumulated cluster of conditioned > reflexes.
>
Yes, this is very true. That is why knowing the Truth (Christ) is what
sets one free. All religions seem to say this same thing, but use
different words.
Unfortunately, very few Americans are free. Most are like Pavlov's dogs
who react in a predictable way when the proper stimulus is given. The
training comes from our pulbic schools and other cultural media. They
even tell us that we are free so that we (falsely) think that we are,
while in reality we live in a state of mental and spiritual bondage to
our carnal selves and to our environment. The first step to becoming
free is in realizing that we are not.
The animal brain, or "nafs", as the Sufi's put it, is the beast-mind
spoken of by John and in which most people reside. Mainstream
Christians look for the coming Mark of the Beast. But, the mark of the
beast in the hand and forehead is ever present in every generation... or
rather, as John paradoxically puts it... "was, and is not, even he
is..."
Unfortunately, most of those whom call me friend are beast(s).
Randall
ubject:
RE: Sufi notes 8/13/99
Date:
Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:40:49 -0600
From:
"Michael J. Pierce"
To:
"'rds@acsu.buffalo.edu'" ,
Rumi007
CC:
Beth Quick ,
74277.3365@compuserve.com, Student007@msn.com,
ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com, proclus@mac.com,
enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com,
trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com
THE ILLUSION OF THE MAN-MADE WORLD
>
> Man takes his home-made world very seriously, believing it is very
real,
> even very sacred. His relative status, security, reputation, and
> importance are as vital to him as food and shelter, if not more so.
To
> him it is very real. He is willing to give his life for that world
and
> does so in many different ways. He not only is in this world, but
he
> really believes he is OF it. This misconception is disastrous for
those
> holding the priesthood, whose "hearts are so much set upon the
things of
> this (Man-Made) world and they aspire to the honors of men."
> John, the Beloved, declared: "Love not the world, neither the things
> that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the
> Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust
(Desires)
> of the flesh (Senses), and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of
life,
> is not of the Father (the Real World), but is of the (Man-Made)
world."
> (I John 2:15-16)
> The conditioned man has no choice but to be obsessed with the world,
> whether it is a love or a hate for it. He can be freed from this
> bondage only when he understands the subtle, hypnotic power of the
> Man-Made World. As he gains this understanding, he sees the
myriad's of
> illusions which have enabled his life to be ruled by the power of
> suggestion.
>
> THE POWER OF SUGGESTION
>
> Suggestion is anything by which a person forms an image of a
desirable
> or painful condition, thereby causing an anxiousness to gain or
escape
> something later. Suggestion regarding these conditions makes things
> seem important, since one's happiness is dependent upon them.
Whenever
> we make anything important, we will be anxious, and anxiety prevents
> peace of mind, which is the kingdom of heaven. We make things
important
> only because of a motive to be non-disturbed. The hidden motives
color
> all desires and actions with impure intents. In other words, we are
> forever manipulating, conniving, rationalizing and justifying, which
> ends up in our blaming and complaining.
> All hypnosis is done by suggestion. No one can ever be hypnotized
> unless he is subject to suggestion, which means that he has a need
and
> compulsion to gain pleasure and escape pain. Since these are hidden
> motives, the conscious mind keeps busy finding justification for
doing
> what one has an inner urge to do. The rationalizations may be very
> noble, fascinating, exciting or logical, but they are really only
> excuses. Since a person is unconscious of the impact of a
suggestion on
> his subconscious, he is convinced that his choices are conscious and
> freely made by his reason and intellect. But it is seldom the case.
> For example, Professor Hart at Duke University put a student under
> hypnosis during a class session. Before waking him, he gave him a
> posthypnotic suggestion, telling the student that after being
awakened
> he would pull the window shade down when the professor coughed the
third
> time. Half an hour later, when the teacher gave his third cough,
the
> student quickly lowered the window shade, completely unconscious of
his
> real motive. When he was challenged as to what was his reason, he
> replied, "The sun hurt my eyes." He became very indignant when
> challenged further. We almost always "think" we know why we are
doing
> the things we do, but very seldom do we really know. Man's most
lauded
> virtues of loyalty, patriotism, ambition, team spirit, family pride
and
> what he usually calls love are often the results of suggestion,
which
> means they may be some of the "darkness at noonday" of which the
Lord
> warns his elders.
Rumi007 wrote:
>
> The American idea of freedom does not take into acount
> the biological reality of *conditioning*. Conditioning is
> the mechanical stimulous-response operation of the nervous
> system. The "nafs" is the purely mechanical animal brain, and
> is nothing more a randomly accumulated cluster of conditioned >
reflexes.
>
Yes, this is very true. That is why knowing the Truth (Christ) is what
sets one free. All religions seem to say this same thing, but use
different words.
Unfortunately, very few Americans are free. Most are like Pavlov's dogs
who react in a predictable way when the proper stimulus is given. The
training comes from our pulbic schools and other cultural media. They
even tell us that we are free so that we (falsely) think that we are,
while in reality we live in a state of mental and spiritual bondage to
our carnal selves and to our environment. The first step to becoming
free is in realizing that we are not.
The animal brain, or "nafs", as the Sufi's put it, is the beast-mind
spoken of by John and in which most people reside. Mainstream
Christians look for the coming Mark of the Beast. But, the mark of the
beast in the hand and forehead is ever present in every generation... or
rather, as John paradoxically puts it... "was, and is not, even he
is..."
Unfortunately, most of those whom call me friend are beast(s).
Randall
Subject:
Re: The article that the term Nazi Mormon came from
Date:
Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:46:13 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
References:
1
Thanks for the tip. I think Randall also mentioned it. I've added a
note to the comment line.
I'm really impressed with the quality of the responses to Ken's most
recent Sufi Notes. I just haven't had the time to get into it myself.
I'll just point out a connection to the Nazi Mormon thingy. There are
people who tyrannically want to limit our access to the freedom from our
conditioned responses. They will say that reality is hard and fine
edged, but that they control access to it. Has anyone seen the film
"Brazil"? It is like "1984" on mushrooms. In the final scene, the hero
escapes into the dreamtime. Everything that we need to reward ourselves
already exists inside of our own skulls. We don't have to wait for the
archons to empower us. All we have to do is figure out how to turn it
on.
Regards,
proclus
McGuire, Andy wrote:
>
> http://bare.users.netlink.co.uk/5kinds.html
>
> -Andy
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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w--- !O M++
V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++
h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
Sufi notes 8/19/99
Date:
Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:44:58 -0500 (CDT)
From:
Ken Shaw
To:
Student007@email.msn.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
CC:
ariel144@hotmail.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
Student007@msn.com, ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com,
proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com,
trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com
Khaneghah class notes,
August 19, 1999
Dallas, Texas
I asked if the term "teacher of time" was to be understood
to be refering to the Sufi concept of "qutb" (Pole). My
understanding of the technical term "qutb" is that it is
a title for whoever stands at the head of the "invisible
hierarchy" on this planet.
Mr. Sabourie said that my mind is full of such fantasies
that I keep myself from the truth. He said that my game
of "comparative religion" will waste what precious time I
left to prepare for death.
He said "teacher of time" is not refering to a single "person"
at all, but rather to "Existance Itself" in this very moment.
We are seperated from "Existance Itself" by the layers and layers
of dreams and fantasies and mental images constantly generated by
our brains. If we could stop all our mental processes and just
be "Present", we would *see* the meaning of everything.
"Existance Itself" is God. God is the "Teacher". "Time" is this
very moment. The "teacher of time" is the state of "Pure Presence"
in which we *see* that everything that presents itself to our awareness
is God Himself communicating to us...the song of a bird, a street sign,
a snatch of conversation from a passer by, a pattern of leaves, a
glance, a touch.....anything.
Ken Shaw
Subject:
[Fwd: more ranting]
Date:
Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:07:29 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
proclus
Subject:
more ranting
Date:
Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:30:31 -0500 (CDT)
From:
Ken Shaw
To:
Student007@email.msn.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
Student007@msn.com, ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com
CC:
proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
kathleen@mail.enol.com, jswick@cris.com, comdb@yahoo.com, timquick@cwnet.com,
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
>> From: Michael Zargarov
>
> Well then...
> Please tell me who decides what is a SUFI topic and what is not?
> Is there a Sufi "Pope" who makes ex-cathedra determinations?
> Does every Sufi discussion have to be completely ethereal?
Well then, this seems to be a good place to jump in and tell
a little about myself. I was born and raised in southern Idaho,
which is really an extension of the original "homeland" of the
Mormon Pioneers who left the persecutions suffered at the hands
of the good people of the USA, and founded a religious commonwealth
in Geat Basin of the Rocky Mountains in the 1840s.
Many years later, as I was trying to dig down to the bedrock the
religious tradition I was raised in, it became plain to me that
"Mormonism" had started out as some kind of "occulted" Ismaili Gnosis
presenting itself as a "Christian" sect just to survive. The mystery
was how could it have happened. The founder of "Mormonism", Joseph Smith
grew up in an environment in New England that was saturated with German
Rosicrucianism and an interest in Rennaisance High Magic. This was
the period of intense paranoia about the Illuminati and Freemasonry
that started the anti-Masonic Party in the USA. It is certain that
the Illuminati did in fact have an influence on Continental Freemasonry
and shaped both the French and American Revolutions. It is the greatest
of ironies that the founders of the ideals of individualism and liberty
are screached at as being the hidden "enemies" of the Constitution by
reactionaries both Catholic and Protestant.
Scholars speculate that there amy have been a real transmission of
Imaili Gnosis to the orginal Bavarian Illuminati at the begining.
Joseph Smith had extensive experience in both Ritual High Magic and
the inner workings of the "revolutionary" Freemasonry. He applied
this viewpoint to Biblical exegesis and doctinal development.
Both Ritual Magic and Fremasonry lead straight back to the Sufis
of Spain and to the Fatamid Dynasty of Egypt. I started out studying
the many works of Seyed Idries Shah of the Naqshbhandi Order. I wrote
him a letter in England asking for a real connection to the Path and
was answered by the most shattering "dream" experience of my life.
My life flew to pieces after that and for ten years I moved all over
the USA as an IC design consultant while desperatly seeking out teachers
from all Traditions to try to absorb the "reality" of their teaching.
I focused on Buddhism, Yoga, Hasidic Kabbalah and Eastern Orthodox Christinaity,
all the while centering on the teaching stories of Idris Shah.
About four years ago I took a job in Dallas, and made contact with the
Maktab Tarighat Oveyssi Shahmaghsoudi through the Internet. I attended
a session and recognized the same "taste" as the "dream" that had staarted
me out so many years before. The MTO Shahmaghsoudi took some getting used
to after my years of "spiritual tourism" and the "boheimian" sophistication
of the Sunni Naqshbhandiya. The MTO Shahmaghsoudi is distinctivly "churchy"
and formal, as well as ardently Shia.
So now I'm trying to sort out those elements that are uniqely Shia Irfani
from the wider Tasawwuf Tariqa that trancends Shia, Sunni, Muslim, Bahai
Chistian and Jew. That's what I hope to learn from you folks.
Ken Shaw
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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Subject:
Sufi notes 8/26/99
Date:
Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:36:21 -0500
From:
Rumi007
Organization:
Microsoft Corporation
To:
"Michael J. Pierce" , rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
CC:
Beth Quick , 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
Student007@msn.com, ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com,
proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com,
trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com
References:
1
Sufi class notes
Dallas, TX 8/26/99
Judy asked Mr. Sabourie how giving a contribution to Khaneghah
can avert misfortune. Mr. Sabourie explained that misfortune
can be the result of our own evil actions or we can get "run-over"
by a flow of events larger than our personal sphere. Either way
it is *God* (The-Whole-Of-Existence-Itself) that is carrying out
the action against us. Everything that happens to us is *God*
trying to get our attention and to teach us something. We are
so bound-up in our web of dreams, fantasies and mental imagery
that we are like the delirious man who must be slapped to
be lucid enough to speak to. *God* uses anything *He* must to
try to get us to "Awaken", even death and hell if that's what it
takes. To be a true Muslim (submited), we must be submited to
whatever comes to us in life, more than that, we must be grateful for
and rejoice in whatever comes to us as the loving hand of *God*.
Mr. Sabourie explained that every action we do, including words
and thoughts, sends an *impact* into *God* that must be responded
to. It isn't a purely mechanical "cause-and-effect" relationship
because *God* is Love and Mercy as well as Justice. Because of this
we are granted "Grace" whenever we truly repent (turn away) from our sins.
*God* can "neutralize" the energy that will return evil for evil to us
if we have have a real inner intention of turning away from our sins
and add some our own energy into the system by giving pngts or doing
other good works. Giving service or money to the Work of the Path is
especially effective because of the Pir's connection to *God*.
Our money is actually some of the substance of our own life, because
it is our life energy and time that is expended to make the money.
By giving money to the Khaneghah we are giving the substance of our
own life-force as a sacrifice to *God*. *God* takes in that energy
and uses it to "neutralize" the energy that will backlash against us
in response to our evil actions (words, thoughts), and stop the "bad luck"
that will fall upon us.
This is just physics, it's not some kind of money making scheme or
an attempt to "buy off God".
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Shaw
Subject:
We're a quiet group these days aren't we......
Date:
Mon, 06 Sep 1999 21:22:06 -0600
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" , rpc man ,
Just saying hi and I'm not ignoring you all on purpose anyway - GRIN! Just
enjoying my summer, camping, fishing, finishing the front end on my truck,
finishing my scrollsaw book, learning Hebrew, traveling sales, etc. Not
really busy, just not here all the time anymore......
Kerry A. Shirts
Subject:
Re: We're a quiet group these days aren't we......
Date:
Tue, 07 Sep 1999 02:59:05 +0000
From:
"Robert R. Black"
To:
shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
"Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
rpc man , 'proclus'
References:
1
Kerry,
Hebrew was hard for me to learn. Last week I picked up a computer course on
Hebrew from Costco. And, Lo and behold, I had forgotten ALL of my Hebrew.
While I was in Mexico, I would try to remember my Spanish and out would come
Hebrew. After three years of living in Mexcio, I guess that I lost ALL of my
Hebrew.
Good luck to you,
Robert.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerry Shirts
To: Andy Mcguire ; ArtdeHoyos ;
Beth any ; Dave ; Enoch Shemna
; Joe Steve Swick III ;
Kathleen McGuire ; Ken Shaw ; Kerry
Shirts ; Michael J. Pierce
; ; R. Trent Reynolds
; Randall Shortridge ; Robert R.
Black ; rpc man ; 'proclus'
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 AM
Subject: We're a quiet group these days aren't we......
> Just saying hi and I'm not ignoring you all on purpose anyway - GRIN! Just
> enjoying my summer, camping, fishing, finishing the front end on my truck,
> finishing my scrollsaw book, learning Hebrew, traveling sales, etc. Not
> really busy, just not here all the time anymore......
>
> Kerry A. Shirts
>
>
Subject:
Re: Book of the Words
Date:
Thu, 30 Sep 1999 00:12:51 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
"Robert R. Black" , proclus@mac.com
CC:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eaglehost.com, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
rpcman@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3
___Robert R. Black___
Joe, How about telling the rest of us how we can get these books?
Okay, here comes the advertisment. If you are interested in books such as
Pike's "Book of the Words," invite you to become a member of the Scottish
Rite Research Society. The Scottish Rite Research Society is Freemasonry's
fastest growing research group, and produces some of the most interesting,
readable, and important Masonic writing available today on subjects ranging
from the history of the Scottish Rite and its degrees, to the meaning of the
Royal Arch Word. Some of the subjects are of relevance to Latter-day Saint
ritual and tradition.
MEMBERSHIP IS AVAILABLE TO NON-MASONS, and I encourage you to join.
Heredom, the Society's annual hardbound collection of essays, represents
some of the finest Masonic writing available. For example, Volume 2 of
Heredom includes the following articles:
- The Mystery of the Royal Arch Word -- Art deHoyos, 32°
- Reflections on the Thirteenth Degree Lecture -- Abbas Samii, 32°
- Albert Pike and the Confederate Indians -- Michael Botelho, 32°
- From the Constitutions and Regulations of 1762
to the Grand Constitutions of 1786 -- Jean-Pierr Lassalle, 33°
- The Degree of Elect Perignan -- Eric Serejski, 32° and S. Brent Morris,
33°
- Masonic Lodge Rooms and their Furnishings -- William D. Moore
-The Reality of Anti-Masonry -- Michel Brodsky, 33°
And that's just in one volume. By becoming a member in 1999-2000, you will
receive a complimentary copy of Albert Pike's "The Book of the Words" edited
by Bro. Art DeHoyos, 32°, K.C.C.H., in consultation with Dr. Rex R.
Hutchens, 33°, G.C., author of "A Bridge To Light." In addition, you will
receive the society's quarterly newsletter, The Plumbline, and a hardbound
copy of Heredom, Vol.VIII, the society's annual collection of essays by
members. Volume VIII will be available in late fall 2000.
Membership is a bargain at $20 annually, and LIFE membership (individuals
only) is $300. You may pay your membership fee by check, or you may send
along VISA or MasterCard information.
I have attached a membership form below. Please print it, duplicate it and
use it. Thank you for your support of Freemasonry and this dynamic new
research group whose work is bringing Masonry's light to Brethren and the
general public everywhere.
For further information on the Scottish Rite Research Society, please visit:
http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/resrch1.htm.
Fraternally yours,
Joe Steve Swick III, 32°
Member, Scottish Rite Reseach Society
-----
Scottish Rite Research Society
1999 Membership Application
We are not able to take membership applications online yet.
If you wish to join, please print and fill out the following form.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Name___________________________________________________________
Address_________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________
City ___________________________State_______ Zip__________________
Phone (_____) ________ - _______________
Lodge_________________________________________________________
Scottish Rite Valley_______________________________________________
1999 Dues $20.00
1999 Life Membership (Individuals Only) $300.00
Mail to:
Scottish Rite Research Society
1733 16th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20009-3103
Please attach a list of offices and memberships you wish included in your
file on a separate sheet.
Member Proposed By (print full name please):
Joe Steve Swick III 32°
Sponsoring Member's Address:
10830 SE 213th Street, Kent WA 98031
NOTE: You may charge your Scottish Rite Research Society membership to your
Scottish Rite MBNA Visa card or any other Visa/MasterCard. To do so, please
complete the following form:
Visa/MasterCard Number _______________________________________
Expiration Date ______/______/______ Amount $ _________________
Signature ___________________________________________________
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Office Use Only:
Check# _________ Date Member Added: _________ Member # __________
Subject:
humungus mutant bundle
Date:
Sat, 09 Oct 1999 13:51:20 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
proclus
Subject:
RE: IAO Links
Date:
Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:02:34 -0400
From:
"Rev. Enoch Shemna"
To:
"Robert R. Black" , enoch144@eaglehost.com,
Beth Quick , proclus@mac.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
JSWICK@mindspring.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffallo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com,
Yes I know she was married to John Bryant, she was a busy woman wasn't she-
she told me she was married to both these men.
I talked with her at length about it so I know what I am talking about. She
told me what happened to David's community and John Bryants. The Police
raids and so forth. She was with Davied with he lived in St George Utah at
the time he claimed to receive the sealed portion (this was the same time
she was receiving the shulemna and claims he wasn't receiving anything just
taking what she got and added upon it)
Enoch
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert R. Black [mailto:black@accex.net]
> Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 7:40 PM
> To: enoch144@eaglehost.com; Beth Quick; proclus@mac.com;
> MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; artdehoyos@aol.com; comdb@yahoo.com;
> JSWICK@mindspring.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; kathleen@enol.com;
> mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; trent@goodnet.com;
> rds@acsu.buffallo.edu; rpcman@hotmail.com; student007@email.msm.com;
> ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com; privacy@eaglehost.com
> Subject: Re: IAO Links
>
>
> Enoch Shemna,
>
> Hava Pratt was married to John Bryant. It was him that set up the
> Church of
> Christ, Patriarchal later changed to Church of Christ --
> Evangelical. I have
> a copy of their ordinance manuel. And yes they were into everything. Every
> kind of sexual deviency was instituted into a temple ceremony. Ask him,
> Beth, if he remembers Robert Black.
>
> Robert.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rev. Enoch Shemna
> To: Beth Quick ; ;
> ; ; ;
> ; ;
> ; ; ;
> ; ; ;
> ; ; ;
> ;
> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 4:30 AM
> Subject: RE: IAO Links
>
>
> > Thank you for all the links Beth, as you know, you and I
> stumbled upon the
> > Oracles of Mohonri / Absalom's Collection around the very same
> time about
> 2
> > 1/2 years ago. At the time I read pretty much all of the Oracles, but
> > didn't come into introduction with the Sons Aumen Israel site til a year
> > later.
> >
> > Much of it at first seemed over my head- a lot reminds me of the
> terminology
> > like in the Keys of Enoch. I never really felt promptings at all when
> > reading the Oracles of Mahonri, nor did I receive a testimony that they
> are
> > from the sealed portion as they claim, in fact I felt strongly
> at the time
> > the Lord was showing me the opposite, but perhaps I wasn't ready for the
> > Oracles, but to me I didn't see anything in there that was "new." or so
> > sacred that it would be sealed for all that time.
> >
> > Around that time I had a vision. I was at the Hill Cumorah and gathered
> on
> > the hill was a huge crowd for a conference of some type. I remember
> hearing
> > from the church leaders who were having the conference that Hinckley was
> > assassinated. But that they had good news and that more
> records had come
> > forth. I was in the crowd beside two men in black suits and ties and
> black
> > sunglasses (whom I refer to as agents) and they came forth with a third
> man
> > who introduced himself to me as David Israel and in his hands were what
> > appeared to be the gold plates.
> >
> > He let me hold them but something did not feel right, in fact I felt
> > darkness. He then took them before the crowd and the leaders and
> convinved
> > everyone they were real and he had brought forth the sealed portion and
> was
> > quite proud of himself. I snuck behind the stand where the leaders were
> and
> > off to my right in the woods I saw Moroni standing observing
> and seemingly
> > distraught at this spectacle. Suddenly a man appeared on the
> stage out of
> > nowhere. It was Hinckley, either back from the dead or his spirit, and
> > denounced David and exposed all the corruption in the church-
> people were
> > outraged, screams and tears filled the crowd. The crowd dispersed in all
> > directions. I took the stand and tried to get some people to listen to
> what
> > I knew. A few followed me and escaped into the woods when the
> agents came
> > after us. Moroni was smiling and came and pointed the way to where I
> should
> > go in which we came to a river and got on rafts to go up.
> >
> > That was the end of that vision.
> >
> > In the Summer of 98 I met Hava Pratt for the first time. She is the one
> who
> > received the scripture known as the Shulemna from Moroni. I
> told her that
> I
> > had found a writing on Sons Aumen Israel website which was
> called Words of
> > Moroni which basically was the Shulemna altered, and more toward a male
> > point of view. Once I mentioned Davied Israel she knew who he was
> > immediately. She said "Oh I know him, he was my husband, I wouldn't put
> too
> > much trust anything he writes." Apparently she was one of his
> plural wives
> > from a Zion community that fell through that he had gathered.
> She had no
> > idea he had taken the Shulemna and altered it and claimed he
> received it.
> > She said many things he claimed to receive were basically altered
> scripture
> > that already existed.
> >
> > I have since emailed Davied several times but he never answers my
> questions.
> > I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I find
> some of his
> > works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I have these
> > questions in my mind about him.
> >
> > Enoch
> >
> >
>
Subject:
better mutant bundle
Date:
Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:37:22 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
proclus
Subject:
Re: IAO Links
Date:
Sat, 02 Oct 1999 23:40:02 +0000
From:
"Robert R. Black"
To:
enoch144@eaglehost.com, Beth Quick ,
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, JSWICK@mindspring.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffallo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com,
student007@email.msm.com,
References:
1
Enoch Shemna,
Hava Pratt was married to John Bryant. It was him that set up the Church of
Christ, Patriarchal later changed to Church of Christ -- Evangelical. I have
a copy of their ordinance manuel. And yes they were into everything. Every
kind of sexual deviency was instituted into a temple ceremony. Ask him,
Beth, if he remembers Robert Black.
Robert.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rev. Enoch Shemna
To: Beth Quick ; ;
; ; ;
; ;
; ; ;
; ; ;
; ; ;
;
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 4:30 AM
Subject: RE: IAO Links
> Thank you for all the links Beth, as you know, you and I stumbled upon the
> Oracles of Mohonri / Absalom's Collection around the very same time about
2
> 1/2 years ago. At the time I read pretty much all of the Oracles, but
> didn't come into introduction with the Sons Aumen Israel site til a year
> later.
>
> Much of it at first seemed over my head- a lot reminds me of the
terminology
> like in the Keys of Enoch. I never really felt promptings at all when
> reading the Oracles of Mahonri, nor did I receive a testimony that they
are
> from the sealed portion as they claim, in fact I felt strongly at the time
> the Lord was showing me the opposite, but perhaps I wasn't ready for the
> Oracles, but to me I didn't see anything in there that was "new." or so
> sacred that it would be sealed for all that time.
>
> Around that time I had a vision. I was at the Hill Cumorah and gathered
on
> the hill was a huge crowd for a conference of some type. I remember
hearing
> from the church leaders who were having the conference that Hinckley was
> assassinated. But that they had good news and that more records had come
> forth. I was in the crowd beside two men in black suits and ties and
black
> sunglasses (whom I refer to as agents) and they came forth with a third
man
> who introduced himself to me as David Israel and in his hands were what
> appeared to be the gold plates.
>
> He let me hold them but something did not feel right, in fact I felt
> darkness. He then took them before the crowd and the leaders and
convinved
> everyone they were real and he had brought forth the sealed portion and
was
> quite proud of himself. I snuck behind the stand where the leaders were
and
> off to my right in the woods I saw Moroni standing observing and seemingly
> distraught at this spectacle. Suddenly a man appeared on the stage out of
> nowhere. It was Hinckley, either back from the dead or his spirit, and
> denounced David and exposed all the corruption in the church- people were
> outraged, screams and tears filled the crowd. The crowd dispersed in all
> directions. I took the stand and tried to get some people to listen to
what
> I knew. A few followed me and escaped into the woods when the agents came
> after us. Moroni was smiling and came and pointed the way to where I
should
> go in which we came to a river and got on rafts to go up.
>
> That was the end of that vision.
>
> In the Summer of 98 I met Hava Pratt for the first time. She is the one
who
> received the scripture known as the Shulemna from Moroni. I told her that
I
> had found a writing on Sons Aumen Israel website which was called Words of
> Moroni which basically was the Shulemna altered, and more toward a male
> point of view. Once I mentioned Davied Israel she knew who he was
> immediately. She said "Oh I know him, he was my husband, I wouldn't put
too
> much trust anything he writes." Apparently she was one of his plural wives
> from a Zion community that fell through that he had gathered. She had no
> idea he had taken the Shulemna and altered it and claimed he received it.
> She said many things he claimed to receive were basically altered
scripture
> that already existed.
>
> I have since emailed Davied several times but he never answers my
questions.
> I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I find some of his
> works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I have these
> questions in my mind about him.
>
> Enoch
>
>
Subject:
Children of the Secret Doctrine
Date:
Sat, 02 Oct 1999 17:22:47 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth Quick
To:
Student007@email.msn.com, ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net
CC:
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
rpcman@hotmail.com,
enoch144@eaglehost.com, proclus@mac.com
Children of the Secret Doctrine I have a message for you.
Well it's been quiet here and there is a site/ group I have been seriously
investigating. I know a couple of you are already partially familiar with
it. I'd be intersted in having a public or private discussion about the
body
of work this group has developed. I don't want to talk to anybody who just
reads a page or two of the site and thinks that's enough and then just
wants
to denounce it. I don't want to talk to anyone whose "heard something"
somewhere about it - although actually anecdotes, positive and negative,
are
acceptable. I do desire an intelligent discussion though. Like I said you
can contact me privately if you want to keep it that way.
The name of the group is Sons Ahman Isreal and their community is New
Qumran. They claim to base the rest of the vast body of work they
have undertaken on the supposed Sealed Portion of the Golden Plates.
Now normally that claim in and of itself is enough to make me ----.
But these people are a SERIOUS Mystery School in not only the Mormon
tradition but in the literal fulfillment of the Dispensation of the
Fullness
of Times, the coming together of all the truths from all the great
traditions of the Earth, past and present into a unified whole and a real
WORKING model.
A few years ago I ordered some info from them and it went completely over
my
head. I have investigated every offshoot of Mormonism and found not only
all
of them lacking but all of them PITIFUL. This is the first SERIOUS
contender
I have encountered.
I rediscovered them again recently and all of a sudden it all makes sense!
Their web site is massive and is on 3 different servers with all
kinds of links so let me suggest some key places to start and then
for those interested, take the spirit for your guide and feast at the table
of the Lord and Lady, for they are both equally represented here.
I will send the links next email.
Beth
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
RE: IAO Links
Date:
Sat, 02 Oct 1999 23:30:22 -0600
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Beth Quick , "proclus@mac.com"
,
"MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com" ,
"artdehoyos@aol.com" ,
"comdb@yahoo.com" ,
"JSWICK@mindspring.com" ,
"shirtail@cyberhighway.net" ,
"kathleen@enol.com" ,
"mpierce@switchsoft.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"trent@goodnet.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffallo.edu" ,
"black@accex.net" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"student007@email.msm.com" ,
I have since emailed Davied several times but he never answers my
questions.
I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I find some of his
works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I have these
questions in my mind about him.
Enoch
Kerry:
Precisely. I was so utterly and damnably frustrated and disappointed with
their claims on the Adamic Language, the revelations from Moroni (way too
Gnostic), and some of their other stuff...Too bad, it was such a promising
start with their analysis of Fac. 2, and tying it in
Kabbalistically.......darn it for man made religion and dupes
anyway......... It was a fun hour or so on the website anyway......
Subject:
mutant bundle 2
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 22:00:32 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
proclus
Subject:
RE: IAO Links
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:53:30 -0600
From:
"Michael J. Pierce"
To:
'Beth Quick' , mpierce@switchsoft.com,
enoch144@eaglehost.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
artdehoyos@aol.com, comdb@yahoo.com, JSWICK@mindspring.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, onandagus@webtv.net
CC:
trent@goodnet.com
I would say by seeing the illusions we have created our whole lives and
gaining the mind of Christ. I still play around with other body energy
things like connected breathing just not for salvation or anything.
-----Original Message-----
From: Beth Quick [SMTP:ariel144@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 1:45 PM
To: mpierce@switchsoft.com; enoch144@eaglehost.com;
ariel144@hotmail.com; proclus@mac.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com;
artdehoyos@aol.com; comdb@yahoo.com; JSWICK@mindspring.com;
shirtail@cyberhighway.net; kathleen@enol.com; onandagus@webtv.net
Cc: trent@goodnet.com
Subject: RE: IAO Links
This is a good point Michael.
Once we do though, how do we go about purifying ourselves and
becoming more
spiritually disciplined? Any ideas?
Beth
>From: "Michael J. Pierce"
>To: "'enoch144@eaglehost.com'" , Beth Quick
>, proclus@mac.com,
>MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,artdehoyos@aol.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
>JSWICK@mindspring.com,shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com,
>mpierce@switchsoft.com,onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
>rds@acsu.buffallo.edu,black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com,
>student007@email.msm.com,ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com,
>privacy@eaglehost.com
>Subject: RE: IAO Links
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:25:51 -0600
>
>True or untrue, what I have learned is that anything outside or
any
>created
>concepts by our logical side can be good but will also be an
eternal run
>around until our heart breaks and we look inside and accept the way
things
>are.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rev. Enoch Shemna [SMTP:enoch144@eaglehost.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 10:31 PM
> To: Beth Quick; proclus@mac.com;
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com;
>artdehoyos@aol.com; comdb@yahoo.com; JSWICK@mindspring.com;
>shirtail@cyberhighway.net; enoch144@eaglehost.com;
kathleen@enol.com;
>mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; trent@goodnet.com;
>rds@acsu.buffallo.edu; black@accex.net; rpcman@hotmail.com;
>student007@email.msm.com; ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com;
>privacy@eaglehost.com
> Subject: RE: IAO Links
>
> Thank you for all the links Beth, as you know, you and I
stumbled
>upon the
> Oracles of Mohonri / Absalom's Collection around the very
same time
>about 2
> 1/2 years ago. At the time I read pretty much all of the
Oracles,
>but
> didn't come into introduction with the Sons Aumen Israel
site til a
>year
> later.
>
> Much of it at first seemed over my head- a lot reminds me of
the
>terminology
> like in the Keys of Enoch. I never really felt promptings
at all
>when
> reading the Oracles of Mahonri, nor did I receive a
testimony that
>they are
> from the sealed portion as they claim, in fact I felt
strongly at
>the time
> the Lord was showing me the opposite, but perhaps I wasn't
ready for
>the
> Oracles, but to me I didn't see anything in there that was
"new." or
>so
> sacred that it would be sealed for all that time.
>
> Around that time I had a vision. I was at the Hill Cumorah
and
>gathered on
> the hill was a huge crowd for a conference of some type. I
remember
>hearing
> from the church leaders who were having the conference that
Hinckley
>was
> assassinated. But that they had good news and that more
records had
>come
> forth. I was in the crowd beside two men in black suits and
ties
>and black
> sunglasses (whom I refer to as agents) and they came forth
with a
>third man
> who introduced himself to me as David Israel and in his
hands were
>what
> appeared to be the gold plates.
>
> He let me hold them but something did not feel right, in
fact I felt
> darkness. He then took them before the crowd and the
leaders and
>convinved
> everyone they were real and he had brought forth the sealed
portion
>and was
> quite proud of himself. I snuck behind the stand where the
leaders
>were and
> off to my right in the woods I saw Moroni standing observing
and
>seemingly
> distraught at this spectacle. Suddenly a man appeared on
the stage
>out of
> nowhere. It was Hinckley, either back from the dead or his
spirit,
>and
> denounced David and exposed all the corruption in the
church- people
>were
> outraged, screams and tears filled the crowd. The crowd
dispersed in
>all
> directions. I took the stand and tried to get some people
to listen
>to what
> I knew. A few followed me and escaped into the woods when
the
>agents came
> after us. Moroni was smiling and came and pointed the way
to where
>I should
> go in which we came to a river and got on rafts to go up.
>
> That was the end of that vision.
>
> In the Summer of 98 I met Hava Pratt for the first time.
She is the
>one who
> received the scripture known as the Shulemna from Moroni. I
told
>her that I
> had found a writing on Sons Aumen Israel website which was
called
>Words of
> Moroni which basically was the Shulemna altered, and more
toward a
>male
> point of view. Once I mentioned Davied Israel she knew who
he was
> immediately. She said "Oh I know him, he was my husband, I
wouldn't
>put too
> much trust anything he writes." Apparently she was one of
his plural
>wives
> from a Zion community that fell through that he had
gathered. She
>had no
> idea he had taken the Shulemna and altered it and claimed he
>received it.
> She said many things he claimed to receive were basically
altered
>scripture
> that already existed.
>
> I have since emailed Davied several times but he never
answers my
>questions.
> I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I
find some
>of his
> works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I
have
>these
> questions in my mind about him.
>
> Enoch
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
Perspective
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth Quick
To:
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, JSWICK@mindspring.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, enoch144@eaglehost.com, kathleen@enol.com,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffallo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com,
Kerry and Enoch,
I am glad to be on these lists for the perspective of others. Thanks for the
perspective. SAI/IAO does seem man made in many ways,
but it is pretty darn good too for what it is (!) If that's all it claimed
to be (inspired vs. commanded/authorized) then I think it would be great but
they are making some pretty serious claims about Divine authority and all,
which I am sceptical of.....so I continue to ponder and investigate.... I am
growing suspicious...
Hmmmm.... yes it's too bad... I wish there were somewhere to gather...
Beth
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
RE: IAO Links
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth Quick
To:
enoch144@eaglehost.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
JSWICK@mindspring.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffallo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com,
See my reply inserted below:
>the Lord was showing me the opposite, but perhaps I wasn't ready for the
>Oracles, but to me I didn't see anything in there that was "new." or so
>sacred that it would be sealed for all that time.
I am glad you remain open-minded...as do I....
>Around that time I had a vision. I was at the Hill Cumorah and gathered on
>the hill was a huge crowd for a conference of some type. I remember
>hearing
>from the church leaders who were having the conference that Hinckley was
>assassinated. But that they had good news and that more records had come
>forth. I was in the crowd beside two men in black suits and ties and black
>sunglasses (whom I refer to as agents) and they came forth with a third man
>who introduced himself to me as David Israel and in his hands were what
>appeared to be the gold plates.
>
>He let me hold them but something did not feel right, in fact I felt
>darkness. He then took them before the crowd and the leaders and convinved
>everyone they were real and he had brought forth the sealed portion and was
>quite proud of himself. I snuck behind the stand where the leaders were
>and
>off to my right in the woods I saw Moroni standing observing and seemingly
>distraught at this spectacle. Suddenly a man appeared on the stage out of
>nowhere. It was Hinckley, either back from the dead or his spirit, and
>denounced David and exposed all the corruption in the church- people were
>outraged, screams and tears filled the crowd.
I find it ironic that GBH, spirit or not, is the one denouncing...
This seems strange to me.....
The crowd dispersed in all
>directions. I took the stand and tried to get some people to listen to
>what
>I knew. A few followed me and escaped into the woods when the agents came
>after us. Moroni was smiling and came and pointed the way to where I
>should
>go in which we came to a river and got on rafts to go up.
>
>That was the end of that vision.
>
>In the Summer of 98 I met Hava Pratt for the first time. She is the one
>who
>received the scripture known as the Shulemna from Moroni. I told her that
>I
>had found a writing on Sons Aumen Israel website which was called Words of
>Moroni which basically was the Shulemna altered, and more toward a male
>point of view. Once I mentioned Davied Israel she knew who he was
>immediately. She said "Oh I know him, he was my husband, I wouldn't put
>too
>much trust anything he writes." Apparently she was one of his plural wives
>from a Zion community that fell through that he had gathered. She had no
>idea he had taken the Shulemna and altered it and claimed he received it.
>She said many things he claimed to receive were basically altered scripture
>that already existed.
>
>I have since emailed Davied several times but he never answers my
>questions.
>I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I find some of his
>works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I have these
>questions in my mind about him.
>
>Enoch
>
Well just to play devils advocate, Davied could have recieved the
same reveltion as Hava..... Anyway, Hava is a sweet woman but I find her
equally as strange as Davied! Thanks for the vision and your opinion though
Todd.
Beth
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
RE: IAO Links
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth Quick
To:
enoch144@eaglehost.com, black@accex.net, ariel144@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, JSWICK@mindspring.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffallo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com,
Robert -
Apparently Enoch is right. Hava has gotten around and the two men
are separate. I know that IAO practices polyandry and sexual rites
in the temple that they claim are Christ centered. In and of itself
I might not neccesarily consider it perversion. Some people say that
about polygamy too. I think it is the manner in which is is carried out and
the spirit and I think 99.9 percent of everybody and anybody
is probably incapable of carrying something of that nature out
perfectly and without sin, so I stay away from it. I myself just prefer to
be monogomous in my sweet old fashoioned and innocent
little romance. But I defend their right to try and pull it off if they
think they can do it. They have their test and I have mine
and we are all different.
I am planning on asking Davied about Hava. Actually I do like her and think
she has a lot of good things to say.
And even as far as Sons Ahman Isreal, I can't find anything wrong
or that I disagree with at all. I just wonder if their claims are trumped
up....
Beth
>From: "Rev. Enoch Shemna"
>Reply-To:
>To: "Robert R. Black" , ,
>"Beth Quick" , ,
>, , ,
>, ,
>, , ,
> , , ,
> , ,
>
>Subject: RE: IAO Links
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:02:34 -0400
>
>Yes I know she was married to John Bryant, she was a busy woman wasn't she-
>she told me she was married to both these men.
>
>I talked with her at length about it so I know what I am talking about. She
>told me what happened to David's community and John Bryants. The Police
>raids and so forth. She was with Davied with he lived in St George Utah at
>the time he claimed to receive the sealed portion (this was the same time
>she was receiving the shulemna and claims he wasn't receiving anything just
>taking what she got and added upon it)
>
>Enoch
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert R. Black [mailto:black@accex.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 7:40 PM
> > To: enoch144@eaglehost.com; Beth Quick; proclus@mac.com;
> > MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; artdehoyos@aol.com; comdb@yahoo.com;
> > JSWICK@mindspring.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; kathleen@enol.com;
> > mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; trent@goodnet.com;
> > rds@acsu.buffallo.edu; rpcman@hotmail.com; student007@email.msm.com;
> > ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com; privacy@eaglehost.com
> > Subject: Re: IAO Links
> >
> >
> > Enoch Shemna,
> >
> > Hava Pratt was married to John Bryant. It was him that set up the
> > Church of
> > Christ, Patriarchal later changed to Church of Christ --
> > Evangelical. I have
> > a copy of their ordinance manuel. And yes they were into everything.
>Every
> > kind of sexual deviency was instituted into a temple ceremony. Ask him,
> > Beth, if he remembers Robert Black.
> >
> > Robert.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Rev. Enoch Shemna
> > To: Beth Quick ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ;
> > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 4:30 AM
> > Subject: RE: IAO Links
> >
> >
> > > Thank you for all the links Beth, as you know, you and I
> > stumbled upon the
> > > Oracles of Mohonri / Absalom's Collection around the very same
> > time about
> > 2
> > > 1/2 years ago. At the time I read pretty much all of the Oracles, but
> > > didn't come into introduction with the Sons Aumen Israel site til a
>year
> > > later.
> > >
> > > Much of it at first seemed over my head- a lot reminds me of the
> > terminology
> > > like in the Keys of Enoch. I never really felt promptings at all when
> > > reading the Oracles of Mahonri, nor did I receive a testimony that
>they
> > are
> > > from the sealed portion as they claim, in fact I felt strongly
> > at the time
> > > the Lord was showing me the opposite, but perhaps I wasn't ready for
>the
> > > Oracles, but to me I didn't see anything in there that was "new." or
>so
> > > sacred that it would be sealed for all that time.
> > >
> > > Around that time I had a vision. I was at the Hill Cumorah and
>gathered
> > on
> > > the hill was a huge crowd for a conference of some type. I remember
> > hearing
> > > from the church leaders who were having the conference that Hinckley
>was
> > > assassinated. But that they had good news and that more
> > records had come
> > > forth. I was in the crowd beside two men in black suits and ties and
> > black
> > > sunglasses (whom I refer to as agents) and they came forth with a
>third
> > man
> > > who introduced himself to me as David Israel and in his hands were
>what
> > > appeared to be the gold plates.
> > >
> > > He let me hold them but something did not feel right, in fact I felt
> > > darkness. He then took them before the crowd and the leaders and
> > convinved
> > > everyone they were real and he had brought forth the sealed portion
>and
> > was
> > > quite proud of himself. I snuck behind the stand where the leaders
>were
> > and
> > > off to my right in the woods I saw Moroni standing observing
> > and seemingly
> > > distraught at this spectacle. Suddenly a man appeared on the
> > stage out of
> > > nowhere. It was Hinckley, either back from the dead or his spirit,
>and
> > > denounced David and exposed all the corruption in the church-
> > people were
> > > outraged, screams and tears filled the crowd. The crowd dispersed in
>all
> > > directions. I took the stand and tried to get some people to listen
>to
> > what
> > > I knew. A few followed me and escaped into the woods when the
> > agents came
> > > after us. Moroni was smiling and came and pointed the way to where I
> > should
> > > go in which we came to a river and got on rafts to go up.
> > >
> > > That was the end of that vision.
> > >
> > > In the Summer of 98 I met Hava Pratt for the first time. She is the
>one
> > who
> > > received the scripture known as the Shulemna from Moroni. I
> > told her that
> > I
> > > had found a writing on Sons Aumen Israel website which was
> > called Words of
> > > Moroni which basically was the Shulemna altered, and more toward a
>male
> > > point of view. Once I mentioned Davied Israel she knew who he was
> > > immediately. She said "Oh I know him, he was my husband, I wouldn't
>put
> > too
> > > much trust anything he writes." Apparently she was one of his
> > plural wives
> > > from a Zion community that fell through that he had gathered.
> > She had no
> > > idea he had taken the Shulemna and altered it and claimed he
> > received it.
> > > She said many things he claimed to receive were basically altered
> > scripture
> > > that already existed.
> > >
> > > I have since emailed Davied several times but he never answers my
> > questions.
> > > I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I find
> > some of his
> > > works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I have these
> > > questions in my mind about him.
> > >
> > > Enoch
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
RE: IAO Links
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth Quick
To:
enoch144@eaglehost.com, black@accex.net, ariel144@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, JSWICK@mindspring.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffallo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com,
PS -
Enoch, why is Janihahs address listed in these emails?
Beth
>From: "Rev. Enoch Shemna"
>Reply-To:
>To: "Robert R. Black" , ,
>"Beth Quick" , ,
>, , ,
>, ,
>, , ,
> , , ,
> , ,
>
>Subject: RE: IAO Links
>Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:02:34 -0400
>
>Yes I know she was married to John Bryant, she was a busy woman wasn't she-
>she told me she was married to both these men.
>
>I talked with her at length about it so I know what I am talking about. She
>told me what happened to David's community and John Bryants. The Police
>raids and so forth. She was with Davied with he lived in St George Utah at
>the time he claimed to receive the sealed portion (this was the same time
>she was receiving the shulemna and claims he wasn't receiving anything just
>taking what she got and added upon it)
>
>Enoch
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert R. Black [mailto:black@accex.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 7:40 PM
> > To: enoch144@eaglehost.com; Beth Quick; proclus@mac.com;
> > MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; artdehoyos@aol.com; comdb@yahoo.com;
> > JSWICK@mindspring.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net; kathleen@enol.com;
> > mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; trent@goodnet.com;
> > rds@acsu.buffallo.edu; rpcman@hotmail.com; student007@email.msm.com;
> > ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com; privacy@eaglehost.com
> > Subject: Re: IAO Links
> >
> >
> > Enoch Shemna,
> >
> > Hava Pratt was married to John Bryant. It was him that set up the
> > Church of
> > Christ, Patriarchal later changed to Church of Christ --
> > Evangelical. I have
> > a copy of their ordinance manuel. And yes they were into everything.
>Every
> > kind of sexual deviency was instituted into a temple ceremony. Ask him,
> > Beth, if he remembers Robert Black.
> >
> > Robert.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Rev. Enoch Shemna
> > To: Beth Quick ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ; ; ;
> > ;
> > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 4:30 AM
> > Subject: RE: IAO Links
> >
> >
> > > Thank you for all the links Beth, as you know, you and I
> > stumbled upon the
> > > Oracles of Mohonri / Absalom's Collection around the very same
> > time about
> > 2
> > > 1/2 years ago. At the time I read pretty much all of the Oracles, but
> > > didn't come into introduction with the Sons Aumen Israel site til a
>year
> > > later.
> > >
> > > Much of it at first seemed over my head- a lot reminds me of the
> > terminology
> > > like in the Keys of Enoch. I never really felt promptings at all when
> > > reading the Oracles of Mahonri, nor did I receive a testimony that
>they
> > are
> > > from the sealed portion as they claim, in fact I felt strongly
> > at the time
> > > the Lord was showing me the opposite, but perhaps I wasn't ready for
>the
> > > Oracles, but to me I didn't see anything in there that was "new." or
>so
> > > sacred that it would be sealed for all that time.
> > >
> > > Around that time I had a vision. I was at the Hill Cumorah and
>gathered
> > on
> > > the hill was a huge crowd for a conference of some type. I remember
> > hearing
> > > from the church leaders who were having the conference that Hinckley
>was
> > > assassinated. But that they had good news and that more
> > records had come
> > > forth. I was in the crowd beside two men in black suits and ties and
> > black
> > > sunglasses (whom I refer to as agents) and they came forth with a
>third
> > man
> > > who introduced himself to me as David Israel and in his hands were
>what
> > > appeared to be the gold plates.
> > >
> > > He let me hold them but something did not feel right, in fact I felt
> > > darkness. He then took them before the crowd and the leaders and
> > convinved
> > > everyone they were real and he had brought forth the sealed portion
>and
> > was
> > > quite proud of himself. I snuck behind the stand where the leaders
>were
> > and
> > > off to my right in the woods I saw Moroni standing observing
> > and seemingly
> > > distraught at this spectacle. Suddenly a man appeared on the
> > stage out of
> > > nowhere. It was Hinckley, either back from the dead or his spirit,
>and
> > > denounced David and exposed all the corruption in the church-
> > people were
> > > outraged, screams and tears filled the crowd. The crowd dispersed in
>all
> > > directions. I took the stand and tried to get some people to listen
>to
> > what
> > > I knew. A few followed me and escaped into the woods when the
> > agents came
> > > after us. Moroni was smiling and came and pointed the way to where I
> > should
> > > go in which we came to a river and got on rafts to go up.
> > >
> > > That was the end of that vision.
> > >
> > > In the Summer of 98 I met Hava Pratt for the first time. She is the
>one
> > who
> > > received the scripture known as the Shulemna from Moroni. I
> > told her that
> > I
> > > had found a writing on Sons Aumen Israel website which was
> > called Words of
> > > Moroni which basically was the Shulemna altered, and more toward a
>male
> > > point of view. Once I mentioned Davied Israel she knew who he was
> > > immediately. She said "Oh I know him, he was my husband, I wouldn't
>put
> > too
> > > much trust anything he writes." Apparently she was one of his
> > plural wives
> > > from a Zion community that fell through that he had gathered.
> > She had no
> > > idea he had taken the Shulemna and altered it and claimed he
> > received it.
> > > She said many things he claimed to receive were basically altered
> > scripture
> > > that already existed.
> > >
> > > I have since emailed Davied several times but he never answers my
> > questions.
> > > I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I find
> > some of his
> > > works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I have these
> > > questions in my mind about him.
> > >
> > > Enoch
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
RE: IAO Links
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth Quick
To:
mpierce@switchsoft.com, enoch144@eaglehost.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, JSWICK@mindspring.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
kathleen@enol.com, onandagus@webtv.net
CC:
trent@goodnet.com
This is a good point Michael.
Once we do though, how do we go about purifying ourselves and becoming more
spiritually disciplined? Any ideas?
Beth
>From: "Michael J. Pierce"
>To: "'enoch144@eaglehost.com'" , Beth Quick
>, proclus@mac.com,
>MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,artdehoyos@aol.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
>JSWICK@mindspring.com,shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com,
>mpierce@switchsoft.com,onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
>rds@acsu.buffallo.edu,black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com,
>student007@email.msm.com,ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com,
>privacy@eaglehost.com
>Subject: RE: IAO Links
>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:25:51 -0600
>
>True or untrue, what I have learned is that anything outside or any
>created
>concepts by our logical side can be good but will also be an eternal run
>around until our heart breaks and we look inside and accept the way things
>are.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rev. Enoch Shemna [SMTP:enoch144@eaglehost.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 10:31 PM
> To: Beth Quick; proclus@mac.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com;
>artdehoyos@aol.com; comdb@yahoo.com; JSWICK@mindspring.com;
>shirtail@cyberhighway.net; enoch144@eaglehost.com; kathleen@enol.com;
>mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; trent@goodnet.com;
>rds@acsu.buffallo.edu; black@accex.net; rpcman@hotmail.com;
>student007@email.msm.com; ken.shaw@disney.ritx.micron.com;
>privacy@eaglehost.com
> Subject: RE: IAO Links
>
> Thank you for all the links Beth, as you know, you and I stumbled
>upon the
> Oracles of Mohonri / Absalom's Collection around the very same time
>about 2
> 1/2 years ago. At the time I read pretty much all of the Oracles,
>but
> didn't come into introduction with the Sons Aumen Israel site til a
>year
> later.
>
> Much of it at first seemed over my head- a lot reminds me of the
>terminology
> like in the Keys of Enoch. I never really felt promptings at all
>when
> reading the Oracles of Mahonri, nor did I receive a testimony that
>they are
> from the sealed portion as they claim, in fact I felt strongly at
>the time
> the Lord was showing me the opposite, but perhaps I wasn't ready for
>the
> Oracles, but to me I didn't see anything in there that was "new." or
>so
> sacred that it would be sealed for all that time.
>
> Around that time I had a vision. I was at the Hill Cumorah and
>gathered on
> the hill was a huge crowd for a conference of some type. I remember
>hearing
> from the church leaders who were having the conference that Hinckley
>was
> assassinated. But that they had good news and that more records had
>come
> forth. I was in the crowd beside two men in black suits and ties
>and black
> sunglasses (whom I refer to as agents) and they came forth with a
>third man
> who introduced himself to me as David Israel and in his hands were
>what
> appeared to be the gold plates.
>
> He let me hold them but something did not feel right, in fact I felt
> darkness. He then took them before the crowd and the leaders and
>convinved
> everyone they were real and he had brought forth the sealed portion
>and was
> quite proud of himself. I snuck behind the stand where the leaders
>were and
> off to my right in the woods I saw Moroni standing observing and
>seemingly
> distraught at this spectacle. Suddenly a man appeared on the stage
>out of
> nowhere. It was Hinckley, either back from the dead or his spirit,
>and
> denounced David and exposed all the corruption in the church- people
>were
> outraged, screams and tears filled the crowd. The crowd dispersed in
>all
> directions. I took the stand and tried to get some people to listen
>to what
> I knew. A few followed me and escaped into the woods when the
>agents came
> after us. Moroni was smiling and came and pointed the way to where
>I should
> go in which we came to a river and got on rafts to go up.
>
> That was the end of that vision.
>
> In the Summer of 98 I met Hava Pratt for the first time. She is the
>one who
> received the scripture known as the Shulemna from Moroni. I told
>her that I
> had found a writing on Sons Aumen Israel website which was called
>Words of
> Moroni which basically was the Shulemna altered, and more toward a
>male
> point of view. Once I mentioned Davied Israel she knew who he was
> immediately. She said "Oh I know him, he was my husband, I wouldn't
>put too
> much trust anything he writes." Apparently she was one of his plural
>wives
> from a Zion community that fell through that he had gathered. She
>had no
> idea he had taken the Shulemna and altered it and claimed he
>received it.
> She said many things he claimed to receive were basically altered
>scripture
> that already existed.
>
> I have since emailed Davied several times but he never answers my
>questions.
> I won't put much faith in his works until he does so. I find some
>of his
> works interesting and spark intrigue here and there, but I have
>these
> questions in my mind about him.
>
> Enoch
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit
Date:
Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth Quick
To:
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, artdehoyos@aol.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, JSWICK@mindspring.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, enoch144@eaglehost.com, kathleen@enol.com,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net
CC:
trent@goodnet.com
<<>>
[I tried to send a response to this but it only went out to about half the
list]
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