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Subject:
Re: 12th planet
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:59:35 -0500
From:
Randall Shortridge
Organization:
State University of New York
To:
proclus
CC:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Sidheach ,
rpc man , Gaia ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" , "neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
Beth any
References:
1
Seems like I hear more and more about this book (12th planet). I have
the book and several others (eg. Genesis Revisited). Skim read parts,
but not read it really seriously yet. Like Proclus, it seems a bit far
out to me. But, after hearing more and more, perhaps I ought to make
time to read it carefully.
I am interested in hearing the thoughts of those who have read the book.
Randall/Eleazar.
proclus wrote:
> > Have you guys read the "Twelve Planet"?
> >
> > Robert.
>
> I haven't read it, because it seemed so wildly speculative to me. I
> am open
> to the possibility of extraterrestrial intervention. I'm a big fan of
>
> Temple's The Sirius Mystery. Just keep that VanDaniken stuff away.
> Have I
> misjudged Sitchen?
>
> proclus
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: 12th Planet
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:58:00 -0500 (EST)
From:
Neoptolmus@aol.com
To:
74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu,
proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, jswick@cris.com
In a message dated 98-02-17 18:03:27 EST, 74277.3365@compuserve.com writes:
<< You know that Sirius is known as the Dog Star. The Mormon myth of
the beginnings of mankind as coming from Kolob. Kolob is the Hebrew word
for dog, but mispronounced. >>
I also heard that in old Arabic texts there was a star with a name similar to
Kolob, in fact, almost identical. Perhaps this star is the same as Sirius? Is
Kolob related to Caleb in the Pentateuch? I vaguely recall Santillana in
Hamlet's Mill discussing the spy mission in terms of a cosmological tale.
Caleb and Joshua, Castor and Pollux, the evening and morning stars, the
heavenly twins. I am getting all of this from memory of books I read some
years ago. I could be wrong.
Subject:
Re: The Fool
Date:
Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:49:36 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Beth any ,
Artdel-Hoyos , Beth ,
Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia ,
George , Michael Love ,
rpc man , Andy McGuire ,
Kathleen McGuire , neoptolmus@aol.com, "R. Trent Reyolds" ,
Ken Shaw , Randall Shortridge ,
"Kathy E. Christensen"
___JSW___
Because of its association with human desire. This is also why the pouch or
wallet is red
___RB__
In the Rider-Waite deck neither the robe nor the purse is red. It is
definately orange.
-----
The lining of the robe is intended to be RED. It is clearly so in the BOTA
deck. Regarding the Waite deck, Daphne Moore comments directly:
"The inner lining of the Robe is RED, signifying desire and action that
springs from that desire" (Rabbi's Tarot, 9).
The lining, the Wallet or pouch, the Triple-Flames, and the spokes of the
spheres are all intended to be red, as should become clearer from the quotes
below.
___JSW___
I would immediately draw your attention to the fact that this Key is the 0
Key -- the NO THING. It is associated with the Hebrew letter ALEPH, which
makes NO SOUND. As Kushner teaches in Sefer Otiyot: "It has no sound. Only
the sound you make when you begin to make every sound. Open your mouth and
begin to make a sound. STOP! That is Alef." (Kushner, 21) Further, ALEPH is
also the first letter in ELOHIM, one of the 70 mystical names of God.
___RB___
I am afraid that I do not agree with this. Aleph is a one. In Hebrew, that
is how a one is made. Generally an aleph means "place a vowel here". The "A"
sound will generally fit. I hope that we do not neeed a Hebrew lesson in
vowels here.
-----
Aleph generally makes no sound; hence, it is commonly transcribed as an
apostrophe: " ' " I have quoted Kushner because my other sources agree.
"[Aleph] is a glottal stop, produced by closing the glottis momentarily and
then letting it spring open under the pressure of the breath" (Moshe
Greenberg, Introduction to Hebrew, 11).
As for the MEANING of ALEPH, and its relation to the Fool, I think that my
comments will stand close inspection. The Key is the ZERO key, and yet it is
the FIRST.
___JSW___
The robe is decorated with beautiful green and 10 CIRCLES or SPHERES.
___RB___
On my card there are 12 circles. Nine have a star in them one has a heart
and one has a pointing hand and one is blank. The one with the "shin" also
has a star. I think that you are pulling this too hard on this one.
-----
Not stretching at all. The Waite deck is meant to conceal some esoteric
teaching. Look carefully, and you will see that there are ten spheres. In
the Waite deck, this excludes the two "Flaming" Spheres --the one on the
hip, and the one on the right breast. The left shoulder is a star and
crescent moon -- not a sphere at all, but a known Hermetic symbol of the
action of opposites, which as I elsewhere mentioned, is also figured in the
Staff and Wallet. The blank sphere on the sleeve is an error, for each of
the spheres should be eight-spoked. There should be 10 spheres:
Ten Sefirot of Nothingness
ten and not nine
ten and not eleven
Understand with Wisdom
Be wise with Understanding
Examine with them
and probe from them
Make each thing stand on its essence
And make the Creator sit on His base. (Kaplan, trans. Yetzirah 1:4)
And these ten spheres contain spokes, not stars. Although she arrives at
her conclusion differently than I do, note carefully Daphna Moore's
description:
"There are EIGHT 8-SPOKED WHEELS... The "yellow Wheels" are the radiant
solar energy... the RED (not orange! -- jsw) SPOKES are the eight forms of
energy... . There are EIGHT Wheels and in addition, two RED and YELLOW
figures. The Hebrew Wisdom teaches that for creation there were TEN
INSTANTANEOUS EMANANTIONS OF THE LIFE POWER." (Rabbi's Tarot, 9)
While Moore seems to have a problem counting (as Robert indicates, there are
definately 12 circles on the robe if you are using the Waite deck), she
nevertheless understands that somehow the markings on the robe represent the
TEN SEPHIROT. Both Case and Waite agree with her, but I have the Case quote
at hand:
"The yellow color of the wheel represents air or breath. The eight red
spokes combine the number 8, symbol of rythm, with the color red, and refer
to the rythmic action of the fiery activity which sets the Life-Breath into
whirling, wheeling motion....There are ten repetitions of this unit of
design, to refer to the ancient doctrine that all manifestation is in ten
aspects or phases -- 'ten ineffable numerations, ten and not nine, ten and
not eleven,' as The Book of Formation says" (Tarot Key, 32)
As for the Flaming Sphere, Case comments:
"There is on the right breast of the Fool a yellow circle enclosing a triple
flame of red. This represents the state of the Life-Breath prior to
manifestation, when the universal energy...although it has the triple
potency of expression within itself, has not yet organized that potency into
the rhythmic, whirling motion" (Tarot Key, 33).
>From this, you can easily speculate on the meaning of the second such
Flaming Sphere in the Waite Deck, but it should be clear that even in the
BOTA Deck, it is customary to consider the Flaming Sphere as separate and
distinct from the Ten Sephirot depicted by the 8-Spoked Spheres.
___JSW___
As may have already occured to you, the letter SHIN is always related to the
Holy Spirit --Ruach HaKodesh
___RB___
"Ruach" is the Hebrew word meaning spirit. It does not have a shin in it.
-----
Shin is gematrically equivalent to RUACH ELOHIM. 'It is on this account SHIN
is called the Holy Letter'" (Book of Tokens, 184). It is also the reason why
the KOHANIM spread their fingers in blessing when they give the benediction
at the conclusion of a service (you know, the "Spock" sign). Additionally:
"The priests must raise their hands so that they are precisely level with
the mouth, as it is written, 'Aaron lifted up his hands toward the people,
and he blessed them' (Leviticus 9:22). The cohen-priest must concentrate on
the fact that his ten fingers represent the Ten Sefirot. As a result of the
focus of the spiritual force between his two hands, his tongue is
'circumcised,' and his blessing has its proper effect" (Kaplan, Yetzirah,
36).
Interestingly, Moore notes that Letter ALEPH also shares a special
relationship with the word RUACH. But that is a discussion for some other
day.
___JSW___
The beautiful white undergarment contains another clue. If you look
carefully about the NECK of that garment, you will notice that the folds
spell out the Divine Name ... the Tetragrammaton, YHVH,
___RB___
It does not have this on my deck for the 0 card. But it does have it for the
card 15 "Temperance" which I failed to mention.
-----
The Angel in Key 14 is none other than Michael. In the Fool, the
Tetragrammaton is purposely concealed in the folds of the white garment. In
Key 14, it is not concealed.
___RB___
I generally avoid the gematria game as you can prove anything you want with
this system.
-----
I rather think that gematria is like chiasmus: there is a careful use which
can be quite valuable. In fact, some scriptures appear to make purposeful
use of gematria. But you are correct to note that this has been much abused.
___RB___
I want to applaud Joe for his excellant discussion.
-----
Thankyoueversomuch!
This has been quite enjoyable.
LVX et Tenebris
JSW
1Cor. 3:18-9
Subject:
Abraham=Gawain GreenKnight=Nimrod
Date:
Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:43:42 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw
I ran across this gem in the mutant prehistory archive, and thought that
it might generate a little discussion. Kerry is Kerry Shirts, who gave
us some interesting insights into the BofA on Prodigy. If you want to
read what he had to say, go to the mutant prehistory archive and choose
abraham.html. I am intimately familiar with all of the material
mentioned in the post, so we can go as deep as you like.
Kerry
Then there is SIR GAWAIN AND THE GREEN KNIGHT again. I have
shown that the story has much ritual isomorphism and
transition. Gawain carries a shield that has a five point
star on it. (Did I tell you this before?) The star is
called "The Knot of Solomon" (I am anxious to read MOTHER
WOVE THE MORNING!). Occulted within this shield is the
hero's patron, the virgin Mary. It is now pretty well
accepted that the Green Knight is an image of Nimrod.
Gawain narrowly escapes a ritual death at the hands of this
Green Knight at the end of the story. Now that we have
hashed over all of the Abrahamic literature, I can only
place the tale of Gawain and the Green Knight at the center
of the Abrahamic tradition.
Speaking of Nimrod always reminds me of Gregory of Tours.
Gregory is no friend of secret intitiatory traditions. For
Gregory, secrecy is only a mask for wickedness and murder.
He weaves this theme into the stories of the middle European
kings and thier demise. His introduction is even more
germane. He tells us of Cush, the firstborn of Ham. It
seems that Cush was the founder of all idolatry. "The
Persians called him Zoroaster, that is, 'living star'." The
son of Cush, Gregory informs us, was a giant named Nebron,
who built Babyl. Of course, he is speaking of Nimrod.
Astarte and the tower
proclus
Subject:
[Fwd: new e-mail for Ken and Nephilim]
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:54:31 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw
I am rebroadcasting this one, as Beth got missed again. Watch out for
that folks. I suggest using an address book entry for our group instead
of the "reply all". That way you hit everyone every time.
... please continue! ;-}
proclus
Subject:
new e-mail for Ken and Nephilim
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:36:43 -0600 (CST)
From:
kenshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
proclus@mac.com
CC:
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@good.net, jswick@cris.com,
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, dcombe@rain.org, onandagus@webtv.net,
neoptolmus%aol.com74277.3365@compuserve.com, gaia@nmol.com
Proclus,
Please make this my all-in-one address.
I believe the Babylon-5/Shakasta/Baalzebub's Tales
scenario gives us a chance for a refreshment and
renewal of our own tradition. It sure makes the
Genesis stuff spring to new and vivid life!
The Nephilim stuff is absolutely central. When Genesis
speaks of Noah being "perfect in his generation" it's
refering to the fact that he had no Cainite or Nephilim
in his GENEOLOGY. This is the bases what anti-Semites
see as Jewish racism in the Talmud as well as Jesus'
parable of "The Wheat and the Tares".
You da' man!
Ken
> From proclus@mac.com Mon Feb 16 21:46:29 1998
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:45:05 -0500
> From: proclus
> Subject: [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
> To: Ken Shaw , proclus@mac.com
> Mime-Version: 1.0
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>
> Did you delete your sidheach account? Shall we send your email to dalsemi?
>
> I hope that we can now discuss the nephilim on the list, because of this
> direct tie in with AG theory that we have uncovered. If AG is tenable, then
> so is the nephilim. I look forward to any comments that you might have
> regarding this.
>
> I hope that you are doing well.
>
> proclus
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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> 16 Feb 1998 22:23:33 EST
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:23:41 -0500
> From: proclus
> Subject: RE: Adam-God
> To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
> Kathleen McGuire ,
> "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
> Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
> Randall Shortridge , Sidheach ,
> rpc man , Gaia ,
> "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave ,
> "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
> "neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
> Beth any
> Message-id: ?E902B5.DE85A7A5@iname.com>
> MIME-version: 1.0
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> Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>
> > The author of the Temple ceremony was BY. In 1854 he said that
> > "Jehovah-Michael" was one person. I wonder what the 1876 Temple ceremony
> > said.
> >
> > Robert.
>
>
> Thanx to your patience, and Joe's, I am accepting theses statements by BY in
> terms of offices of the priesthood. I think that this is the way that AG
> theory could be advanced. I tried it out on my wife the other night. Just
> explain that the terms JHVH and Michael refer to offices in the priesthood,
> that the term Eloheim refers to the heavenly host. This simply explains alot
> of things that are otherwise difficult to comprehend. Perhaps we could
> develop this argument. My wife foresaw a few problems in it, but she would
> not explain what she meant (ach!).
>
> Furthermore, it is already implicitly believed my most Mormons, IMHO. They
> have the model of councils, offices and stewardship right before their eyes in
> the Church. I feel that a strong argument can be made to Mormons by
> comparing the earthly order to the heavenly order, a la Pseudo-Dionysius. It
> can be presented as a practical question. Who was doing Michael's job in
> heaven, while he was Adam in the Garden? Who was doing JHVH's job in heaven,
> while he was Christ on earth. If you discuss this in terms of callings and
> stewardships, most Mormons will nod knowingly. It's almost trivial. When do
> we start? ;-}
>
> Now the most interesting consequence for me is the re-emphasis of Eloheim as
> plural, as refering to the council of the gods, a la KFS. It is congruent
> with my vision of the host of heaven, off-world commerce, and genetic
> stewardship, a seventh circuit trip essentially. Every man and woman is a
> star. It opens up the possibility for serious reconsideration of the sons of
> god and the daughters of men, the heroes of reknown, the nephilim, and El
> Shaddai, Ashoreh and kin. We have not even begun to explore the implications
> of this lost teaching, which has been unfortunately displaced by the notion of
> Elohim as a single parent! ;-}
>
> Good families, capitalism, and American values; Our heretage has become
> impoverished. We have set our sights too low. I am feeling an urgency to do
> something about it. I would love it if we could move this forward somehow folks.
>
> proclus
>
> BTW, any opinions out there regarding Orrin Hatch's recent performance
> regarding Microsoft? Don't be afraid to give me your most cynical reaction.
> I will bless you for it. With all this talk of anti-trust, I think that he is
> sounding like a Democrat! Maybe he will move to a pro-labor position ;-}.
>
>
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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>
>
Subject:
Re: The Condescension of the Gods
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:08:30 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw ,
"Kathy E. Christensen" , George Head
References:
1
Thanx for this excellent response. I hope that you won't mind a few
simple questions. These are based on the ever-lingering feeling that
the Fool could also represent Everyman, or at least Robert's
pre-initiate.
Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> But back to the Robe. With a little thought, you may have come to the
> understanding that the SPHERES are the Sephirot of the Tree of Life. This
> would be correct. It is significant that they adorn the BODY of the Fool.
> The robe is lined with RED, meaning the FOOL has placed the garment on AT
> WILL.
I don't follow this. How does red signify an act of will.
> It is bound by a golden belt of SEVEN SPHERES, -- the SEVEN HEAVENLY
> PLANETS. Consequently, this belt is indicative of TIME. Perhaps our Fool is
> God. Perhaps --as the Sephirot tend to indicate-- this is Adam Rishmon/Adam
> Kadmon, the Holy Spirit, which is about to descend into.... manifestation.
Thanks for pointing out this important parallel with Adam Qadmon. I
notice that the circles are sewn into his clothing, not a part of his
body. It seems relevant to our previous discussion implying that the
role of Adam Qadmon could be divested, like a robe, and given in
stweardship to another. Does anyone know if the Adam Qadmon lore
includes a possibility that this could be an assumed role taken on by an
act of will?
On the other hand, I think that it is also likely that these circles
could refer to an impression of the sepheroth in our own bodies, like
the chakras. Clearly, this is a starkly different interpretation.
> The beautiful white undergarment contains another clue. If you look
> carefully about the NECK of that garment, you will notice that the folds
> spell out the Divine Name ... the Tetragrammaton, YHVH, a Name which
> Kabbalists have long known to be gematrically equivalent to the name ADAM.
Excellent!
> Now, let us look at only a few other details. Notice that the Fool --like
> all good travellers-- carries a WAND, surmounted by a POUCH. Among other
> things, the WAND and the POUCH represent SEXUAL UNION, or the ACTION OF
> OPPOSITES. This is confirmed by the EAGLE on the pouch, which is associated
> with WATER and with the astrological sign of SCORPIO, which of course rules
> the human genitalia
>
> As brief and sketchy as this information is, it should give you an idea of
> Who the Fool is and where He is headed. I believe that the Fool is that
> Primal Azilutic Man, Adam Kadmon, who is associated with the Tree of Life.
> He is beginning the Divine Descent. As He approaches the edge of the
> precipice -- and yes, He most certainly *is* going to FALL-- (^_^) He looks
> to the NorthWest -- the direction of the Unknown.
Does this exclude the possibility that the Fool could also refer to Adam
in Eden? Methinks not, but I am interested in the details here. (Or
are you saying that Adam Qudom IS Adam in Eden?)
> "The first chapter of Genesis should be understood as the unfolding of the
> Creation FROM AN ALREADY EXISTING DIVINE WORLD. While this is common
> knowledge in Jewish esoteric cosmogony, it is still not know to many people
> familiar with the Bible.
Interesting parallel with inflationary cosmology there =}. One
difference though is that inflation does not describe how anything could
move from a prior universe to a subsequent universe. This idea of
condescension, this notion of seeding a new universe then entering it,
is exceedingly weird and difficult to understand. It seems a little
unhuman, and I think that I might prefer a god who exists in this
universe. Maybe it will be easier to reach him. He would be the
creator of planets, not universes. I think that this space mormon angle
has greater resonance with the Kolob current. Again Adam Qadmon would
be taken allegorically.
proclus
PS, I apologize that I am neither Robert, nor George ;-}.
Subject:
Re: new e-mail for Ken and Nephilim
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:42:45 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw
References:
1
Ken Shaw wrote:
>
> Proclus,
>
> Please make this my all-in-one address.
>
> I believe the Babylon-5/Shakasta/Baalzebub's Tales
> scenario gives us a chance for a refreshment and
> renewal of our own tradition. It sure makes the
> Genesis stuff spring to new and vivid life!
Yes, I think that Robert senses this as well. That is why he keeps
recommending Sitchin, no? Maybe we should reconsider Twelfth Planet.
Yea, this is the wierd part though, right? Open the door to a plural
Eloheim, and the Nephilim walk through, and maybe extra-terrestrials
too. Where do we stop?
> The Nephilim stuff is absolutely central. When Genesis
> speaks of Noah being "perfect in his generation" it's
> refering to the fact that he had no Cainite or Nephilim
> in his GENEOLOGY. This is the bases what anti-Semites
> see as Jewish racism in the Talmud as well as Jesus'
> parable of "The Wheat and the Tares".
Yea, we are opening the door to divine genes and racism too, right.
Hey, I am broadminded. Maybe God did seed life with his own genetic
material. No one has ever taken the DNA fingerprint of God.
On the other hand, we could be in the same image of God, and not be in
the same species of God. Birds, insects and planes all have wings, but
they are not closely related. Look at an octapus eyeball. It looks
just like ours, but it evolved entirely independently. I would have to
say that the human eyeball is in the image of the octapus eyeball. They
are really that close. We could be analoguous to God. When Joseph said
God is a man, does this really mean that God is a human? Kutulu
sleeps. Deux sapiens.
So, where did you get this? I have always taken pride in my Nephilim
heretage. But hey, if God can give the priesthood to the blacks, maybe
He can even give it to an evil seed like me! (just kidding folks)
proclus
> > From proclus@mac.com Mon Feb 16 21:46:29 1998
> > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:45:05 -0500
> > From: proclus
> > Subject: [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
> > To: Ken Shaw , proclus@mac.com
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
> > Content-Type> : > multipart/mixed> ; > boundary="------------B1C0AD495BDE490433D1D205">
> > Content-Length: 6859
> >
> > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> > --------------B1C0AD495BDE490433D1D205
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Did you delete your sidheach account? Shall we send your email to dalsemi?
> >
> > I hope that we can now discuss the nephilim on the list, because of this
> > direct tie in with AG theory that we have uncovered. If AG is tenable, then
> > so is the nephilim. I look forward to any comments that you might have
> > regarding this.
> >
> > I hope that you are doing well.
> >
> > proclus
> >
> > --
> > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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> > Return-path: <>
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> > for love; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:26:58 EST
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> > Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:25:43 -0500 (EST)
> > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:25:43 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Mail Delivery Subsystem
> > Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> > To: proclus@mac.com
> > Message-id: ?.WAA20650@relay16.mail.aol.com>
> > Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> >
> > The original message was received at Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:25:37 -0500 (EST)
> > from binah.cc.brandeis.edu [129.64.1.3]
> >
> > Your mail is being returned due to one or more non-delivery conditions listed below:
> >
> > (Refer to the " ----- Transcript of session follows ----- " section)
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> > 2: SMTP 550 .... Mailbox Full
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> >
> > -AOL Postmaster
> >
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> >
> > ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > ... while talking to air28.mail.aol.com.:
> > >>> RCPT To:
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> >
> > ----- Original message follows -----
> >
> > Return-Path:
> > Received: from binah.cc.brandeis.edu (binah.cc.brandeis.edu [129.64.1.3])
> > by relay16.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
> > with ESMTP id WAA20643;
> > Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:25:37 -0500 (EST)
> > Received: from iname.com (ppp-port2.hughes.brandeis.edu)
> > by BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU (PMDF V5.1-7 #17138)
> > with ESMTP id ?ITNWHFW7KWHV66N4@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> Mon,
> > 16 Feb 1998 22:23:33 EST
> > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:23:41 -0500
> > From: proclus
> > Subject: RE: Adam-God
> > To: Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
> > Kathleen McGuire ,
> > "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
> > Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
> > Randall Shortridge , Sidheach ,
> > rpc man , Gaia ,
> > "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Dave ,
> > "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
> > "neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
> > Beth any
> > Message-id: ?E902B5.DE85A7A5@iname.com>
> > MIME-version: 1.0
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
> > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
> >
> > > The author of the Temple ceremony was BY. In 1854 he said that
> > > "Jehovah-Michael" was one person. I wonder what the 1876 Temple ceremony
> > > said.
> > >
> > > Robert.
> >
> >
> > Thanx to your patience, and Joe's, I am accepting theses statements by BY in
> > terms of offices of the priesthood. I think that this is the way that AG
> > theory could be advanced. I tried it out on my wife the other night. Just
> > explain that the terms JHVH and Michael refer to offices in the priesthood,
> > that the term Eloheim refers to the heavenly host. This simply explains alot
> > of things that are otherwise difficult to comprehend. Perhaps we could
> > develop this argument. My wife foresaw a few problems in it, but she would
> > not explain what she meant (ach!).
> >
> > Furthermore, it is already implicitly believed my most Mormons, IMHO. They
> > have the model of councils, offices and stewardship right before their eyes in
> > the Church. I feel that a strong argument can be made to Mormons by
> > comparing the earthly order to the heavenly order, a la Pseudo-Dionysius. It
> > can be presented as a practical question. Who was doing Michael's job in
> > heaven, while he was Adam in the Garden? Who was doing JHVH's job in heaven,
> > while he was Christ on earth. If you discuss this in terms of callings and
> > stewardships, most Mormons will nod knowingly. It's almost trivial. When do
> > we start? ;-}
> >
> > Now the most interesting consequence for me is the re-emphasis of Eloheim as
> > plural, as refering to the council of the gods, a la KFS. It is congruent
> > with my vision of the host of heaven, off-world commerce, and genetic
> > stewardship, a seventh circuit trip essentially. Every man and woman is a
> > star. It opens up the possibility for serious reconsideration of the sons of
> > god and the daughters of men, the heroes of reknown, the nephilim, and El
> > Shaddai, Ashoreh and kin. We have not even begun to explore the implications
> > of this lost teaching, which has been unfortunately displaced by the notion of
> > Elohim as a single parent! ;-}
> >
> > Good families, capitalism, and American values; Our heretage has become
> > impoverished. We have set our sights too low. I am feeling an urgency to do
> > something about it. I would love it if we could move this forward somehow folks.
> >
> > proclus
> >
> > BTW, any opinions out there regarding Orrin Hatch's recent performance
> > regarding Microsoft? Don't be afraid to give me your most cynical reaction.
> > I will bless you for it. With all this talk of anti-trust, I think that he is
> > sounding like a Democrat! Maybe he will move to a pro-labor position ;-}.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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> >
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Orin Hatch
Date:
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:01:02 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia ,
Ken Shaw , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any
References:
1
In a nutshell, the senator is concerned about Microsoft's growing monopoly,
and he wants to write the anti-trust legistlation of the information age. I
find this strange, as it is normally the pervue of democrats.
Senator Hatch seems to be growing more powerful, almost on a daily basis. I
understand that the Church is not heavily invested in high tech, but rather in
media, among other things. This is true many members as well. When I get
some money together, after I finish my degree, I am also thinking of following
the Church's interesting investment stratagy. Bill Gates' incursions into
media must be of some concern in SLC. That's my theory anyway.
Robert R. Black wrote:
>
> <
> BTW, any opinions out there regarding Orrin Hatch's recent performance
> regarding Microsoft? Don't be afraid to give me your most cynical
> reaction.
> I will bless you for it. With all this talk of anti-trust, I think that he
> is
> sounding like a Democrat! Maybe he will move to a pro-labor position
> ;-}.>>
>
> Huh? Catch me up about Orin Hatch.
>
> Robert.
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: 12th Planet
Date:
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:29:08 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia ,
Ken Shaw , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any
References:
1
Robert R. Black wrote:
> You have misjudged Sitchen. However, I have only read his first two
> volumes. I have the third but havent read it. And, I lack his last volume.
> His books are much better than are VanDaniken.
I find that I am growing more receptive to Sitchen as time goes on. BTW, he
is mentioned at MkzdK in the fascinating "jump start" essay. Go to the
mutantRM website, follow the link to MkzdK, click on Lounge, then choose Jump
Start from the pop menu. It is a wonderful examination of extraterrestrial
intervention which focuses on Berosus and the legend of Oannes. You have seen
this fish tailed god in Figure 3 of the book of Abraham.
> Talking about The Sirius
> Mystery. You know that Sirius is known as the Dog Star. The Mormon myth of
> the beginnings of mankind as coming from Kolob. Kolob is the Hebrew word
> for dog, but mispronounced.
I have been looking for a link like this for 14 years! Thanks Robert. It
figures that the link is through the Hebrew (proclus winks at Ken). I love
our little group. You guys are giants in my mind.
proclus
BTW, Robert, care to reconsider your interpretation of Atu XVII? ;-} I see
Kolob in this card. The woman has one foot in the water and one foot on the
land. Influenced by Leary, I see this as alluding to space travel. She pours
water on the land and on the water indicating interplanetary communication.
This form of communication is known as revelation by the spirit, and it is
symbolized by water in vessels. A linear progression from the Tower to the
Star is implied by this interpretation. "Behold the naked splendor of Nuit!" ;-]
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: 12th Planet
Date:
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:42:45 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge , rpc man , Gaia ,
Ken Shaw , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Dave , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"neoptolmus@aol.com" , Beth any
References:
1
One more note one this, Robert. Perusing the Cabalistic Dictionary, we find
ChLB denoting milk. Robert, I was wondering if you could give the hebrew word
for dog, so that we could consider the gematria and all. Thanks.
proclus
Robert R. Black wrote:
>
> <<> Have you guys read the "Twelve Planet"?
> >
> > Robert.
>
> I haven't read it, because it seemed so wildly speculative to me. I am
> open
> to the possibility of extraterrestrial intervention. I'm a big fan of
> Temple's The Sirius Mystery. Just keep that VanDaniken stuff away. Have I
> misjudged Sitchen?
>
> proclus>>
>
> You have misjudged Sitchen. However, I have only read his first two
> volumes. I have the third but havent read it. And, I lack his last volume.
> His books are much better than are VanDaniken. Talking about The Sirius
> Mystery. You know that Sirius is known as the Dog Star. The Mormon myth of
> the beginnings of mankind as coming from Kolob. Kolob is the Hebrew word
> for dog, but mispronounced.
>
> Robert.
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: 12th Planet
Date:
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:59:34 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw
References:
1
gaia@nmol.com wrote:
>
> IN I see
> >Kolob in this card. The woman has one foot in the water and one foot on the
> >land. Influenced by Leary, I see this as alluding to space travel. She pou
> >water on the land and on the water indicating interplanetary communication.
> >This form of communication is known as revelation by the spirit, and it is
> >symbolized by water in vessels. A linear progression from the Tower to the
> >Star is implied by this interpretation. "Behold the naked splendor of Nuit!
>
> GAIA:
> The card is called "Temperance" ; the traditional interp. (and i
> realize the tr aditional interpretations may/ not be of interest) is that
> She is blending two different elements to great benefit...."blending or
> combining diff aspects of your life in a new & diff way....mixing in
> the right proportions....bringing together opposite qualities...creating
> harmony... also confidence & enthusiasm; outspokenness; open-mindedness;
> handling volatile situations well; being healed....working w/ inner
> guide, guardian angel, etc; cooperayion, accomodation...."etc. you get
> the idea.
Yes, the parallel between Temperance and the Star is quite striking. I
was just thinking of Ken's comments regarding bloodlines and the
Babylonian myth cycle. Consider that we have two aspects to ourselves,
one the divine spark of extraterrestrial origin, and the other the
titanic forces of the earth. Is it that we can be mud puddles, or star
stuff? Rather, I see the blending and juxtaposition of opposites as
central here. I like looking at your interesting interpretation of
Temperance in this particular light.
B5 is a possible expression of this thrust. We build a space station, a
diverse community, to facilitate commerce, diplomacy, and peaceful
cultural exchange. It is a perilous, but necessary endeavor. Then, we
find out that two ancient forces have been meddling with our history and
our DNA, one titanic, and the other angelic. In order for us to become
Old Ones ourselves, we must draw wisely from both elements. When we are
finished with this task, we will meet them again "beyond the rim."
Hehe, I think that we are in a similar situation on this list!
> i have been reading the cards for some time -- ever since i realized
> they were NOT the "tools of the devil" i was told they were......
> i'd be happy to share some of my understandings if anyone wishes...
Absolutely chime in whenever you feel like it, Gaia. I suspect that
your insights will be quite welcome. ;-}
Blessed Be!
proclus
> i've MUCH enjoyed and been enlightened by this discussion/
> interpretation, THANX SO MUCH!
> blessings --
> Gaia
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * A little concideration, a little thought for others
> ======== New Mexico Online - Internet Plus, a whole lot more! =========
> ========================================================================
> = Data: 505-299-1111 Telnet: nmol.com Http: www.nmol.com =
> ========================================================================
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: Kolob-keleb
Date:
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:20:14 -0500
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
Gaia , "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw
References:
1
Ken Shaw wrote:
>
> Hail Mutants!
>
> Robert has indeed dug up the Dog!
Apparently, you can't bury the dog too deep for Robert! ;-}
> The hebrew is "keleb"...any philologist
> will sign off on the equivalence between
> "kolob" and "keleb".
>
> This online hebrew dictionary is really great!
>
> http://home.sol.no/~ggunners/bibel/h3/61.htm#1
>
> I love you guys!
>
> Ken
Brilliant and thanx for the link! Now I recall that the story of Caleb
in the OT has some interesting esoteric underpinings. I am definitely
going to look into this again. Beautiful! I noticed that the Hebrews
also use the term milky way (incl ChLB). It would be interesting to see
how this relates to some of the material in Temple's book as well as in
the book of abraham figures. I am also interested in the possible link
to "fang" that JSW was aluding to. Does this have any bearing on the
Fool or the Moon card doggies?
(proclus spreads hugs all around)
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
bundle
Date:
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:47:56 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Michael Love
Subject:
Orin Hatch
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:56:30 -0500
From:
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>
To:
Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth ,
Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia ,
George , Michael Love ,
rpc man , Andy McGuire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"R. Trent Reyolds" , Randall Shortridge ,
Sidheach , Joe Steve Swick III
<>
Huh? Catch me up about Orin Hatch.
Robert.
Subject:
12th Planet
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:56:43 -0500
From:
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>
To:
Beth any , Artdel-Hoyos , Beth ,
Don Bradley , Dave , Gaia ,
George , Michael Love ,
rpc man , Andy McGuire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"R. Trent Reyolds" , Randall Shortridge ,
Sidheach , Joe Steve Swick III
<<> Have you guys read the "Twelve Planet"?
>
> Robert.
I haven't read it, because it seemed so wildly speculative to me. I am
open
to the possibility of extraterrestrial intervention. I'm a big fan of
Temple's The Sirius Mystery. Just keep that VanDaniken stuff away. Have I
misjudged Sitchen?
proclus>>
You have misjudged Sitchen. However, I have only read his first two
volumes. I have the third but havent read it. And, I lack his last volume.
His books are much better than are VanDaniken. Talking about The Sirius
Mystery. You know that Sirius is known as the Dog Star. The Mormon myth of
the beginnings of mankind as coming from Kolob. Kolob is the Hebrew word
for dog, but mispronounced.
Robert.
Subject:
Re: The Condescension of the Gods
Date:
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:29:52 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire