Hail Mutants!
The word "mysticism" may have lost
its meaning because of overuse, but
the reality that it used to refer to still
exists.
When Joseph Smith talks about salvation
coming through the "Knowledge of Christ"
alone, it's clear that he's talking about a
"state of being", rather than any kind of
aprehension of an idea. I believe that the
"Knowledge of Christ" alters one functioning
such that Consecration, Theocracy and
Celestial Marraige seem natural and right.
It dawned on me clear back in '82 when I
re-read "The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith" that Joseph's soterology was purely
"Gnostic", that is, that evil is ignorance and
salvation is the removal of that ignorance.
This is an asronishingly Buddhist view, and
this is why I consider Buddhism to be the
"meta-system" that is the key to unlocking
all authentic traditions, especially Mormonism.
Is Buddhism "mysticism"? The word "Mystery"
means "to close the mouth". One may "close
the mouth" because of oaths and penalties and
that is a "Mystery", or one may "close the mouth"
because the color yellow cannot be described to
one born blind. Buddhism attempts to describe
reality in a completly lucid and scientific way, but
the realities it alludes to can only be apprehended
by the attaining of specific "states of consciousness".
Thus we can say that "mysticism" is any knowledge
that is "state specific".
I absolutely believe that "Gnosis" can be reached through
authentic traditions no matter what the "religion" of that
traditon is in, whether Muslim or Jewish or Christian.
As for me, the path of the "prayer of the heart" is the Way.
I love you all,
Kenneth Shaw
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For those who find the subject interesting, you may find an online set of
the BOTA Tarot Keys at the following website:
http://www.emporia.edu/m/www/art/george/keys.htm
These might be an interesting starting-place for a discussion on Tarot. The
gentleman who owns the page is a Latter-day Saint, and a personal friend of
mine. You may wish to look at his other pages...some interesting stuff, even
if some of the graphical content is heavy to download. If you find his
comments on Kabbalah and Tarot to be interesting, please consider inviting
him to our list, where we can all mutate together.
JSW
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Greetings! I feel priviledged to join such an interesting group. My interests
are pretty broad, as Don can no doubt testify to, but here is something of a
list.
1. Becoming a FARMS watchdog (not for them, but of them). Why? I'm tired of
BOM geography speculation, ad hominem arguments in reviews of controversial
books on the BOM, and other such nonsense (including Dan Peterson).
2. Becoming involved with a press that's truly involved in free inquiry on the
subject of Mormonism (i.e., not the kind of place that sells out what freedom
it had to BYU, and not the kind of place that rejects sound investigation
because it may cause someone to think for themselves for a change [this is a
litlle harsh, but I'm in a non-forgiving mood tonight).
3. Reason and Faith, not one exclusive of the other.
4. The real Bible, not the vision of it where we bring our own interpretation
to the text and overlook what is there. Reading Mormon texts closely, not
soley for discovering that the GAs were right all along.
5. All subjects of an ancient, mythological, ritual, religious, occult,
mystical and freemasonic nature.
6. Real, unfettered Mormon History.
7. Acquiring as many dead languages as I can before I die. Why? For the fun of
it.
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by the way, Don, and others to, what do you think of my using the name Baeth
Ku (remember?). I may be off on my memory of the spelling. Would you check it
for me?
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Neoptolmus,
Howdy! Is your name a reference to Ptolemy? It's grat to
have you on board. My own interest has gone beyond
ancient texts to the possible living continuations of ancient
traditions. I followed the clues that (I believe) Joesph deliberately
left imbedded in the body of his implicit teachings, and what I
came up with was the Sufis of Islam. That eventualy led to
Gurdjeiff and the Sarmoun Brotherhood in Central Asia. The
Sufi stuff branches out everywhere from Buddhism to Eastern
Orthodox Christian mysticism. My own path has turned into
a Buddhist/Sufi/Orthodox Christian one.
I hope to learn a lot from you.
Kenneth Shaw
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Neoptolmus,
The situation with the Mandaeans just makes me sad.
They've survived 2000 years by hiding out in the swamps
of Iraq, only to disolve in the universal solvent of the mass
culture of the 20th century. Do you know of any efforts to
try to preserve their complete oral tradition? The last thing
I heard was that the complete system is just about lost
because of the raising generation not being interested in
the arduous task of the training of traditional Priests.
There is a friend of mine who is a leader of the raising B'nei
Noach movement named J. David Davis, who has done
important research into "Christian Origins", and he's traced
the name n'tzarim to the meaning of "keepers of secrets"
as in the Qumran community and an esoteric "masonic"
fraternity among the Rechabites. N'tzarim is usually translated
as "branchites" as in devotees to the Davidic bloodline.
Well at any rate, Davis makes this argument that the original
"keepers of secrets" linage has survived down to our day as
the Druze religion of Lebanon as well as in the Sufi "lodges".
The Druze are very secretive (logicly enough) but we do know
that they hold a very sophisticated anthroplogy and cosmology
that looks explicity "gnostic". They have a complex theory of
"reincarnation" that posits that the "individual" spirit of each person
only has enough self-contained "baraka" (blessing) to last for
a certain number of life-times, and if they don't attain salvation
within that time, their "self" just disintigrates, just as described
by Brigham Young as the "second death".
There is still a great treasury of undiscovered lore just waiting for
us to dig it up among the minority religions of the near east.
Thanks man,
Kenneth Shaw
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In a message dated 98-02-03 16:05:42 EST, Neoptolmus writes:
> It sounds as though you have much to teach me. I too believe that there are
> implicit teachings imbedded in Joseph's teachings, though my interest in
> continuations of the ancient teachings is mostly in Mandaean and Freemasonic
> circles.
Continuations of the ancient teachings in Freemasonry? Really? Do tell!
---Art deHoyos, 32*, KCCH, KYCH
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In a message dated 98-02-04 17:20:53 EST, Neoptolmus writes:
> This must be the origin of the Templar ceremonies that gave birth to the
> masonic ritual, which is poorly understood by its own initiates (not that I
> have any corner on it either).
To the contrary, there is *no* credible evidence that Freemasonry has any
lineal historical ties to the Knights Templar. This is a myth that has been
repeated by Masons and non-Masons alike.
Works inculcating the Templar theory, including those of John Robinson, Andrew
Sinclair, Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, etc., rely on inuendo and
speculation.
Some years ago I asked John Robinson (to whom I dedicated one of my books),
where he got a piece of information he included in _Born in Blood_. He
replied that he found it in a novel. That is not good historical research.
The "authentic" (critical) school of Masonic historians (initiated by Quatuor
Coronati Lodge 2076, London), has yet to find a single, verifiable connection
between the Templars and the Craft.
Those interested in the history of Freemasonry would do well to *begin* with
the following four books:
Bernard E. Jones, _Freemasons' Guide and Compendium_ rev. ed. (London: Harrap,
1956, 1982)
Douglas Knoop and G.P. Jones, _The Genesis of Freemasonry_ (London: Q.C.
Correspondence Circle, 1978)
David Stevenson, _The Origins of Freemasonry: Scotland's Century 1590-1710_
(Cambridge University Press, 1988)
David Stevenson, _The First Freemasons: Scotland's Early Lodges and Their
Members_ (Aberdeen University Press, 1988)
---Art deHoyos, 32*, KCCH, KYCH
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Art and Neoptomlus,
My fur brained notions in this area are
patheticly naive, but I buy Idries Shah's
argument for the existance of a planetary
network of "Conscious" people carrying
out a "conspiracy" to lead humanity to
a the fulfulment of their destiny.
This "Conscious" element in the population
would recognize each other by their peculiar
qualities, as well as being in "communion"
with each other on a subtle level. They would
live and work in every culture and religious tradition,
as well as taking any social position that was
useful for their invidual "project", from leper to king.
Sometimes communities crystilize around "Conscious"
individuals as craft guilds or businesses or esoteric
religious movements. But these are always understood
to be secondary manifestations subject to the mechanical
degradation of all "unconscious" activities. The aims of
the "Conscious" leven of humanity continue to be carried
out in new forms even as the many abandoned "shells"
of previous "projects" continue blindly along by their own
inertia.
I'm personaly conviced that Mormonism is probably one
of those "projects". It was carried out to produce a
specific impact, on a specific gene pool, at a specific time
and place, to produce a specific "development".
I'm sorry folks, this is what I really believe. I hope you'll
still talk to me after this.....
I love you all,
Ken
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In a message dated 98-02-05 08:48:38 EST, ArtdeHoyos writes:
<< To the contrary, there is *no* credible evidence that Freemasonry has any
lineal historical ties to the Knights Templar. This is a myth that has been
repeated by Masons and non-Masons alike. >>
Of this I am well aware, but I do not find the English history of the craft
very compelling. I have read the Stevenson's book, "The Origins of
Scottish..." and found that very informative. I'll look at the other works you
have suggested.
I also think that while there is no *hard* evidence about such a connection,
the connection is, on the other hand, not impossible either. Even if there is
no connection at all, I would continue to maintain that there is something
distinctive about the craft that remains unnaccounted for. I sincerely doubt
that it is simply a series of rituals designed for identification of levels of
instruction in the physical craft. In my mind there remain alot of questions
with regards to origins.
The Templar myth is attractive and ennobles the craft. It isn't impossible.
The hard history has many many questions. Though the real source is yet to be
concretely identified, I bet it will be more interesting than the English
version of the history.
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Joe Swick wrote:
<>
I prefer the Rider-Waite deck. My copy of the BOTA deck is packed away
also. I to think of downloading an entire Tarot deck. I guess I will just
break down and buy me a new deck. Please invite him to join.
Robert.
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Proclus wrote:
"While true, it does not show in any degree that the Merovingians are that
line. We could just as well argue that the generation of Jesus was lost in
ignominy."
_____________
You might be interested in a book recently remaindered by Barnes & Noble
in catalog number H41X 1019 item number E157002. "Bloodline of the Holy
Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed" by Laurence Gardner (the
genealogist for the Jacobite royal family). 489 pps Hard Cover. $12.98.
This shows the genealogy through the Merovingians to Jesus Christ. It
pretty much follows my own genealogy.
There are many problems, however. It claims that Joseph of Arimithea was
the same person as James the Brother of Jesus. This I do not believe.
Robert.
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In a message dated 98-02-05 19:13:44 EST, Neoptolmus writes:
> Of this I am well aware, but I do not find the English history of the craft
> very compelling. I have read the Stevenson's book, "The Origins of
Scottish...
> " and found that very informative. I'll look at the other works you have
> suggested.
As I said, the books I mentioned are a good place to *begin.* For the most
scholarly research in America, I'd suggest the annual volumes of _Heredom: The
Transactions of the Scottish Rite Research Society_. If you are really
interested in Masonic research, I'd be happy to recommend scores of other
responsible works.
> I also think that while there is no *hard* evidence about such a
connection,
> the connection is, on the other hand, not impossible either.
I agree here. However, credible research requires *sufficient* research and
evidence to infer what cannot be proved. John Hamill wrote in his book, _The
Craft: A History of English Masonry_ that we still do not know *for sure* the
orgins of Freemasonry. I agree with my Bro. Hamill here. However, rather
than looking for what is "not impossible" we rather first look for what is
likely *probable.*
> Even if there is
> no connection at all, I would continue to maintain that there is something
> distinctive about the craft that remains unnaccounted for.
This is a view maintained by all Masonic researchers. I do not know that we
will ever have all the information we need to trace our Masonic origins. In
fact, I rather think something will always remain elusive.
However, the state of Masonic research has not remained stagnant or locked in
any particular theory of origins. My good friend W. Kirk MacNulty, author of
_Freemasonry: A Journey Through Ritual and Symbol_ (London: Thames and Hudson,
1991), gave me two interesting papers he wrote which examine possible
Kabbalistic influences on the Craft and Royal Arch rituals. They are well
thought out and exemplify an attempt at credible research.
Masonic history is being viewed in a clear light, and recently, historians are
beginning to examine the role Freemasonry has played in shaping society.
Examples of this Michael Spurr's article "Freemasonry -- Child of the
Enlightenment? Or Vice Versa? Freemasonry and the Enlightenment" in _Ars
Quatuor Coronatorum _ vol. 109 (1996), pp. 1-15, and Steven C. Bullock,
_Revolutionary Brotherhood: Freemaosnry and the Transformation of the American
Social Order, 1730-1840_ (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press,
1996).
> I sincerely doubt
> that it is simply a series of rituals designed for identification of levels
> of instruction in the physical craft. In my mind there remain alot of
> questions with regards to origins.
I never implied that "it is simply a series of rituals designed for
identification of levels of instruction in the physical craft." Anyone who
has studied its rituals cannot claim they exist for "identification."
To fully understand what you mean, we need to distinguish what type of
Freemasonry you are referring to (early Grand Lodge, 1717; post English Union,
1813, etc.).
I am honored to be a member of the committee which is editing, rewriting and
"modernizing" the rituals of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction (Albert
Pike's body). In fact, I am one of the three most active members on this
committee. I am fortunate to have unlimited access to the greatest Masonic
collections and archives in the USA, and have been given many documents from
Freemasonry world-wide. I believe I understand as well as anyone what Masonic
rituals teach.
My study of these documents has led me to believe that Freemasonry has indeed
borrowed from (or was an outgrowth of?) certain esoteric traditions. I don't
want to comment on this too much, because it is an area of personal research.
I don't advertise (too loudly) what I'm working on, but I will say that I have
identified documents which clearly demonstrate links with certain esoteric
traditions.
> The Templar myth is attractive and ennobles the craft. It isn't impossible.
To say that "The Templar myth is attractive" is subjective. To others, an
Operative origin would be attractive; and still, to others, a Kabbalistic
origin would be attractive. To me, the *truth*--whatever it is--would be
attractive. I do not see how the Templar myth "ennobles the craft" any more
than the truth would.
To say that the Templar myth "isn't impossible" is not the same as saying it
is *probable.* It "isn't impossible" for me to win the Texas Lotto tomorrow
night, but it isn't likely. In historical research we must look at the
sources which have the highest potential for leading us to the truth.
Part of the problem is that non-Masons (and most Masons) don't have access to
authentic documents to assist their research. They generally accept exposures
as accurate and do not realize how many different Masonic orders there have
been, or the extent of the evolution of the rituals.
Even the most sincere researchers make tremendous errors. An example of this
is Dr. Mark C. Carnes, author of _Secret Ritual and Manhood in Victorian
America_ (Yale University Press, 1989).
Dr. Carnes was asked to write a chapter for the book _Theatre of the
Fraternity: Staging the Ritual Space of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry,
1896-1929_ (University of Minnesota, 1996).
I was given a copy of his paper to review, prior to publication. Dr. Carnes
(like many non-Masons) incorrectly assumed that Jonathan Blanchard's book
_Scotch Rite Masonry Illustrated_ 2 vols. (Chicago: Ezra A. Cook, 1887-1888),
had the authentic rituals of the Scottish Rite. He also assumed that the
symbolism of the rituals was a product of the Victorian age.
He was wrong on both counts. Blanchard's book was really an exposure of
Cerneausim, a pseudo-Masonic Order. I pointed this out and--by reference to
authentic documents--also observed that the symbols he analyzed dated from
France in the 1760s. Dr. Carnes unfortunately only slightly revised his
article and the foundation of his article remained unchanged and (in my
opinion) hopelessly flawed.
> The hard history has many many questions. Though the real source is yet to
be
> concretely identified, I bet it will be more interesting than the English
> version of the history.
This is also subjective. And again, to me, the truth--whatever it is--is
interesting. I find the "English version of the history" very interesting.
It is also based on evidence, not pure speculation. Good research requires us
to set aside all our preferences and seek only the truth. That is the
responsibilty of historians.
---Art deHoyos, 32*, KCCH, KYCH
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> Art,
>
> You mention your books. What have you written?
>
>
> Don Bradley
Art deHoyos and S. Brent Morris, _Is It True What They Say About Freemasony?
The Methods of Anti-Masons_ 2d ed. (Silver Spring, MD: Masonic Information
Center, 1993, 1997)
Art deHoyos, translator and editor, _The Rituals of the Clermont System_
(Grand College of Rites, 1997)
Art deHoyos, translator and editor, _Sarsena and the Ancient Order of Free
Gardeners_ (Grand College of Rites, 1996)
Art deHoyos, ed., _The Ritual of Lodge Le Progres de l'Oceanie_ (Grand College
of Rites, 1995)
Art deHoyos, ed., _The Blue Degrees of Atwood's Cerneau Supreme Council_
(Grand College of Rites, 1995)
Art deHoyos, translator and editor, _The Reception of an Apprentice Freemason
According to the Swedish Rite Ritual of the Grand National Lodge of Freemasons
of Germany_ (McAllen, Tx: Privately Printed, 1995)
Art deHoyos, translator and editor, _The Early Rituals of the Ordo Templi
Orientis: Theodor Reuss_ (McAllen, Tx: Privately Printed, 1995) [I may
republish this under the auspices of the Grand College of Rites]
Art deHoyos, _The Rituals of the Ordo Templi Orientis: Masonic Sources_
(McAllen, Tx: [limited circulation only], 1995)
Art deHoyos, _The Rituals of the Ordo Templi Orientis: Aleister Crowley's
Sealed Originals (McAllen, Tx: [limited circulation only], 1995)
Art deHoyos, translator and editor, _The Liturgy of Germania Lodge No. 46 (New
Orleans, Louisiana). Containing the 1844 Ritual of the Entered Apprentice,
Fellow Craft and Master Mason Degrees, together with the Ceremony of Masonic
Baptism and the Burial Ceremony_ (New Orleans: Michael R. Poll, 1993)
Art deHoyos, translator and editor, _The Rituals of the Grand Lodge of the
Sun_ (Kila, MT: Kessinger Publishing Co., 1992)
Art deHoyos, _The Cloud of Prejudice_ (Kila, MT: Kessinger Publishing Co.,
1992)
(the above only includes items put into circulation, and does not include my
unpublished manuscripts)
In connection with several other Masonic scholars, I am working on a large
study (sereral hundred pages) of the rituals which influenced the first
Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite. This will be published in 2001 by the
Scottish Rite Research Society, in connection with the bicentennial of the
founding of the Scottish Rite.
Most of my books have an *intended* limited circulation for Masons, and some
were prepared for specific groups.
---Art deHoyos, 32*, KCCH, KYCH
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>I never implied that "it is simply a series of rituals designed for
identification of >levels of instruction in the physical craft." Anyone who
has studied its rituals >cannot claim they exist for "identification."
I am sorry if you felt that I was implying that you did. Freemasonry has a
tendency to pop up in some of my other areas of interest, and I often hear
people claim that the purpose of certain aspects of the ritual was
identification. Neither they nor I claim to be that well versed in the Craft,
but there are certain comments others have made that strike me as being
inaccurate to the point of underestimating the Craft's importance.
>My study of these documents has led me to believe that Freemasonry has indeed
>borrowed from (or was an outgrowth of?) certain esoteric traditions. I don't
want >to comment on this too much, because it is an area of personal research.
I don't >advertise (too loudly) what I'm working on, but I will say that I
have identified >documents which clearly demonstrate links with certain
esoteric traditions.
When you do publish please let me know. I would consider such a book
indispensable to my library.
>To say that "The Templar myth is attractive" is subjective. To others, an
Operative origin >would be attractive; and still, to others, a Kabbalistic
origin would be attractive. To me, the >*truth*--whatever it is--would be
attractive. I do not see how the Templar myth "ennobles >the craft" any more
than the truth would.
Of course it is subjective. However, some myths are more powerful than others.
The *truth* is attractive too. It is especially attractive to you as your
specialty is the history of Freemasonry. My particular interest, however, is
in myth, mythical history, and ritual. I approach Freemasonry from this
perspective. The Templar connection myth is obviously very powerful, or it
wouldn't be repeated so often. Identification with the Templars even in a
ritual sense would not be important either. As to Kabbalah, well, I know very
little about that as my knowledge of things thins out after 1200 AD. I would
think that Alchemical lore would be as, or even more, important than Kabbalah.
I do doubt that the Kabbalic connection would inspire the same Romantic
yearnings as a mythical Templar connection anyway.
In the end, whether Templar connections are complete bunk or improbable, they
remain a part of the history of the myth of the craft. For this reason they
are historically significant.
>To say that the Templar myth "isn't impossible" is not the same as saying it
is >*probable.* It "isn't impossible" for me to win the Texas Lotto tomorrow
night, but it >isn't likely. In historical research we must look at the
sources which have the >highest potential for leading us to the truth.
I know the difference between probable and not impossible. I am also aware of
the difference between significant and nonsignificant facts. I now understand
the level of expertise you have in this area, so I understand your passion for
historical accuracy when it comes to Templar origins. I am only a dabbler in
Freemasonry. I come to it from the other end. My primary interest is in
ancient secret societies and cults. I believe in some connection with
antiquity based on my knowledge of the past, not my extensive research in
Freemasonry itself.
I am sorry that the first particular posting got your hopes up. I wrote as an
enthusiast, not an expert. If we ever have the opportunity to discuss an area
of my expertise I am sure you will find that I am in no need of a lesson on
professional research methodology and logic. I was simply having fun here.
Sorry to disappoint you.
>This is also subjective. And again, to me, the truth--whatever it is--is
interesting. I >find the "English version of the history" very interesting.
It is also based on >evidence, not pure speculation. Good research requires
us to set aside all our >preferences and seek only the truth. That is the
responsibilty of historians.
To call it subjective is less than significant to me as I consider all history
provisional and subjective. I agree with your comments about good research. I
follow those principles when I am doing research in my field of expertise.
Nevertheless, I also believe that any claim to pure objectivity is self-
deluded.
I appreciate the effort you put into your reply. I am saving it, and the list
of books you gave me. I look forward to investigating the matter further when
I have the time. On the other hand, I find your assumptions about my
understanding of the English language, of historical method, and logic
somewhat insulting. I did not enter into this discussion with the
understanding that I was contributing to a dialogue on the scientific history
of Freemasonry.
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> Michael Love wrote:
> >
> > Blayne Sukut wrote:
> > >
> > > "WE SHOULD GATHER ALL THE GOOD AND TRUE PRINCIPLES IN THE WORLD AND
TREASURE
> > > THEM UP, OR WE SHALL NOT COME OUT TRUE MORMONS." (TPJS, p. 316.)
>
> I think that we should put this one in the FAQ. It expresses what I
> think we feel, that outside reading is good mormonism. Opinions?
>
> proclus
>
AMEN!!!
Trent
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Another krosspost:
To be excommunicated from the Mutants would be even more of an
honor than from the LDS church, as Eleazer says I could call myself
Mutant squared. Just kiddin'......
Well I never thought I would see the day when "correlating" anything
that had to do with Mormonism would be good. But correlating adresses
is a good thing. So let the correlation begin!
I thought I would report on the rituals I attended over the last
weekend.
I went to an overnight ritual with my goddess circle and we spent
part of the evening on Saturday night actually attending another
ritual being performed by Starhawk in San Francisco.
The biggest thing everyone talked about was how Starhawk always
really inspires people and changes their lives with her books,
but for people who had not met her in person yet they were surprised
at how mellow she was. She seemed to be falling asleep to some of us!
But the leader of our group who had trained under her said, "well
you have to give the poor woman a break, she's been doing this for 25
years now and it's just not that fresh and new for her anymore
I am sure". So that point was well taken. (OK I know Gaia knows her
so please don't get after me for saying that Gaia!)
The ritual was fairly intimate, there were about 50 people there (at
Starhawk's). It was for Candlemass, Bridgid and Inbold (hope I haven't
hacked any of these words). The highlight of the evening was the Spiral
Dance.
Now this was where my thoughts really began racing. I couldn't help
thinking back to my imaginings of what the fresh energy surrounding
early Christianity must have been like, or even early Mormonism.
I kept thinking about how when I go to these rituals and so often
we are doing things that are eerily similar to things that are
done in the temple but in the temple there is such a sense of
restraint, such conservatism and reserve. But at rituals where
my feet have been washed the same as in the temple or when I have
joined in circular activities that were so reminiscent of the
prayer circles, there has been such joy and spirit and many strong
feelings and emotions attending my "pagan" activities.
So in this spiral dance I imagined myself as one of the disciples
of Christ or the followers of Joseph when the energy was so fresh
and new. I felt transported back in time.
It was also funny to me how even though I was supposedly at these
rituals worshipping the consort of Christ, the Goddess how present
Christ was there with me. I kept thinking about the scriptures
where God, or who I believe Christ to be speaking or even Christ
and his Goddess speaking as one, saying "everything testifies of me".
Or the "I am in all things and through all things" scriptures.
(Now to me, I have begun to equate the latter scripture as refferring
to the "Light of Christ" which I am absolutely convinced is the Life
force energy that the Chinese call Chi and the Hindus Prana etc. etc. in
fact I have a chart I have compiled with about 50 terms for it both
ancient and modern in every culture. I am a big Wilhelm Reich fan and he
called it Orgone.)
Anyway as far as the scriptures about "everything testifies of me"
I have been thinking a lot recently about how the seasons tell
the story of the birth, death and ressurection of Christ, about
how nature testifies of Christ.
So I was at this ritual and I felt almost like I had this voice in
my head that said "they worship me and they do not even realize it".
But this was not a "bad" or "negative" thing at all even if it comes
across sounding that way. It was very good and positive actually.
To me Christ is about making everything ONE. Anything that has to
do with wholeness reminds me of Christ. I have always thought about
how in this world everything is seperated: divide and conquer.
So it has always made logical sense to me that in this fallen state
God and Goddess, Earth and Sky etc, etc. would be seperated but
I always knew they would come together again. In the millenium
when all things are made whole again.
But I understood for many years about why it was so logical
that the Christians and Jews and others had rejected their Mother and
that the pagans and goddess worshipers hadn't rejected their father
or Christ in my opinion, in my opinion the satanic power
structures had commited every horror in Christ's name for the express
purpose of making everyone they came in contact with fear Christ
and/ or reject him. Now whether it was a deliberate conspiracy
is debateable, although sometimes I wonder, however the effects
were the same. The pagans and indigenous peoples associated
Christ with horrors and were not able to see that this was the
God that nature and some of their vary own rituals testified of.
They were not able to see how these puzzle pieces fit together.
But I felt a good feeling knowing that in the right time all things
would be restored and indeed things were being restored. I know
there are pagans who do love Christ. And then there's wackos like
me attending pagan rituals and understanding how it all fits together.
I felt only a good feeling when I felt like Christ was whispering in
my ear that someday those that did not know they were worshipping
Christ would someday come to understand and love Him. That the God
and Goddess would be One again.
It is funny because the next day I went to LDS church for the first time
in months. I can't explain what bizarre feeling took over me
and possesed me to do such a thing but it really seemed to be a higher
will than my own which led me to do so. So I went and I must say
that I was bored to tears during some of the services. I listened
to some testimonies and was disappointed a number of times when
a number of people mentioned that they believed Gordon B. Hinckley was
a true prophet but didn't say anything about a testimony of Jesus
or Joseph Smith.
But while I was there I felt like I was bringing some of the energy
of the Goddess with me. I kept feeling inspired to just spread it
around, to pray that the Saints would embrace their Mother once again.
I felt like a missionary for my Mother. I silently blessed every place
that I sat that the seats and the building would hold this energy and
bless everyone who came in contact with it with a renewed interest in
their Mother.
So I when I reflected on that weekend I felt like a missionary trying
to bridge two worlds so that they may become one, like I know in some
primordial beginning they must have been. I have been thinking a lot
about Eve's sacrifice. That part of the sacrifice of Eve was the
sacrifice of our knowledge of the Goddess. That the Hebrew Goddess
Asherah and Eve were once understood as being one and the same.
Well I hope this isn't too touchy feely for such a scholarly list
as this but I just tell it like I see it.
My last thought was that it occured to me that the reason the
four directions are invoked in a circle is becuase the circle
is not a permanent structure, you are casting your sacred space
fresh and it will be cast and then disbanded later when the area
is used for something else. Whereas with a temple structure, it
is built and set there to be sacred space permanently. The temple
is built in alignment with the four directions etc. and therefore
do not need to be invoked everytime. Some may disagree with me
but these were just my reflections. Joseph Smith said that the
saints could recieve their endowments on a mountain top but
that temple buldings were for the rich. I imagine if Joseph
went to the mountaintop he would have invoked the elements and
created a sacred space in much the same way that pagans do today.
Or in the same way that the ancient Hebrews did in the groves of
Oak trees (sound familiar?) in ancient times when there was no permanent
temple. (I am thinking back to Collier's pamphlets on the subject in
which Bob Black, Mormon Magus was the one who pointed out the
information to him).
For the first time in my life I finally understand what it means to
have a "cathedral of trees", for a forest to be your temple. What
an amazing experience that would be.
It all reminds me that probably my favorite part in that whole
Mutant archive is when AJ is telling about his early experiences
with both Mormonism and "paganism" and says that he never felt the Holy
Spirit in the way that Mormons were always talking about until he went
on a pagan excursion with his friends to Mount Timpanogos and then felt
the Spirit really strong for the first time in his life
(did I hack that one too bad AJ?).
I guess I can't say much else......what a long strange trip it's
been, as usual. I'm tired ;-)
Beth
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>>>>There is still a great treasury of undiscovered lore just waiting
>>>>for us to dig it up among the minority religions of the near east.
>>>>Thanks man,
>>>>Kenneth Shaw
Dear Ken,
I am absoloutely fascinated with these minority religions you
are always bringing to us on the lists! Help us to know where to
start? Where are you digging this stuff up? What are some of your
sources and the sources of others?
Infected with the bug,
Beth
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Dear Ken (my big internet crush ;-)
I haven't kept up much with Shulemna or RM-l lately, for obvious
reasons....;-) It seems that RM-l has stagnated a bit but maybe
we can stir the pot!
I'll write to Steve and have him enlist you. I must admit I
haven't talked to him for awhile. For all of his "liberal" sounding
talk he really surprised me by permanently banning himself from the
list because everybody didn't agree with him. He was trying to
coerce everyone to his viewpoint and went off in a huff when he
felt he was unsuccessful. He thinks I have gone off the deep end
apparently. Too much of a liberal for him....or just a hellion
I guess. Oh well, can't please everybody. I am what I am and that's
what I am. I stopped apologizing for myself a long time ago.
Beth
----------------
>Beth,
>
>I, for one, am worried that the "reply all" thing
>may have varying numbers of addresses on
>it. I home that we can generate a formal list
>we can keep on hand to make sure that no
>one gets trimmed by accident.
>
>I've gotten almost nothing for a while as well,
>and it may be simply that we're preaching to
>the converted and that's no fun at all.
>
>Or we're such an opinionated bunch that we're
>only interested in our own personal lines of rap.
>
>You da' babe!
>
>Ken
>
>PS -- Is the rml thing still going, or did Jahnihah kill that one as
well?
>I'm thinking I might want to jump back into the fray because I miss
>the action. Can you get me on?
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This was an email I don't think I got...
Found this on my other account.
BTW, Welcome to the list Robert, I didn't realize we finally added
you.
I keep Shulemna and RM-l on another account away from my personal
email and of course..my favorite list...the Mutants!
Well Brother Black...Do you prefer to be called Robert or Bob?
I went out and purchased a Rider-Waite Deck finally.
Would you prefer to do our little seminar by phone or do you
think there is any way to bring this to all of the Mutants?
Boy what I would give to hear tidbits from Art's spiral notebooks....
Beth
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I have this book. There is a website for it. It is connected
with some kind of game or mystery having to do with some
artwork that was created in relation to the book although it
does not appear in the book. Through the mysteries embedded in
the artwork you go on some kind of quest. It sounds like fun.
I wish I had the time but I don't. If I find the website
link I'll forward it.
This book appears to have been written by the Members of the
modern-day "Priory of Zion" themselves. Apparently they have
their own agenda. They seem to be advocating a return to a
"servant king" ( In America? I wasn't really clear on their point or
where it would be???) who of course would be "benevolent" and all that,
and of course descended from the Merovingians, probably a current member
of the Priory like Prince Michael. The very idea of this makes me laugh.
It's a fun book to flip through though. I just can't get enough of
the stuff.
I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else has read the book.
If people thought that Holy Blood, Holy Grail was controversial
then this one is really out there. Even for me and I am the
open-mindedness queen.
Whether or not the Merovingians were descended from Christ I
have to say like Robert I am descended from them too. I know
there are many in the church who are.
I find it very interesting that the early bretheren did speak about
the descendants of Christ quite a number of times. I know Proclus
hates the British Isreal stuff and there is a lot of crap out there
I admit. There's too many white supremacists out there using stuff
like that for their own agneda but just becuase there is doesn't
mean some of it is not true. The fact is the ONLY reason I ever
got interested in it was because it comepletely correlated
with things that the early leaders taught about the subject. I
believe that Joseph and Brigham were onto something about the
Blood of Isreal. And I believe it can be found in every culture on the
planet! The Rastafarians are onto something too.
My patrirachal blessing states that I am from the
tribe of Ephriam. I don't beleive that is symbolic or that
I am adopted in etc. I know that somehow the blood of Ephriam
and other tribes ended up in those European countires SOMEHOW.
Now if some of the British Isreal people's research shows me
how I of the tribe of Ephriam ended up being descended from Western
Europeans rather than Palestinians or something then I am interested
in hearing it.
I also find it very interesting that I became extremely interested
in family history research a number of years ago and totally
out of the blue the name of a book came floating into my head
and it was Holy Blood, Holy Grail. I had never heard of the book
that I can recall. Had no clue what it was about. But I went
to a library and looked up the title of this book that kept
popping into my head during this family history frenzy and
looked at the genealogies in the book and saw that this
was my own family history and that these were the claimed
lineages descended from Christ which I never knew but which
made perfect sense to me.
I believe that my research has shown that I am not only descended
from the tribe of Epriam but the tribes of Judah and Benjamin as well.
I think it is approopriate actually that he had quite a number
of really horrible people born into that line because I think
it proved a very valuble point that it's not your bloodline like
the supremascists think. It's who you are inside.
I think that Christ would be the first one to point this out.
I think that that is what the justification for the Crusades was.
That they had the blood right to the throne in Jerusalem.
I think they didn't just make it up as an excuse.
I think the blood is there and that just because you are
descended from Christ you are still a telestial person in a telestial
world who is going to be tempted to use that information to
impose unrighteous dominion upon your neighbor and I think
that's what happened.
But Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were also descended from these
same lines. There was talk in their day that they were Christs
descendants. I have been the ward family history specialist
for a number of years and I can't tell you how many people
in the church are all descended from the same stock.
I have met people who were told in blessings and through
other means that they were descendants of Christ. They all
come from the same lines.
The evidence may seem somewhere between circumstantial or
mystical but like I said it actually makes perfect sense to me
that Christ has had his fair share of creeps for descendants.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
The law of the double edged sword. As others have pointed out,
which line is the adversary going to want to corrupt the most?
Beth
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>Proclus wrote:
>
>"While true, it does not show in any degree that the Merovingians are
that
>line. We could just as well argue that the generation of Jesus was lost
in
>ignominy."
>
>_____________
>
>You might be interested in a book recently remaindered by Barnes &
Noble
>in catalog number H41X 1019 item number E157002. "Bloodline of the Holy
>Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed" by Laurence Gardner (the
>genealogist for the Jacobite royal family). 489 pps Hard Cover. $12.98.
>This shows the genealogy through the Merovingians to Jesus Christ. It
>pretty much follows my own genealogy.
>
>There are many problems, however. It claims that Joseph of Arimithea
was
>the same person as James the Brother of Jesus. This I do not believe.
>
>Robert.
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Beth,
The fact is I'm just cribbing like mad from
the research done by others. The Mandaeans
and Manicheans are a central focus of Hugh
Nibley. The Druze, Isma'ili, Thugee, Bahai,
and Yazidis are all explicitly Sufi break-offs.
You da' babe!
Ken
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Steve = "Samuel Kingston" owner of Troubador.com, the ISP
that Shulemna and RM-l are on.
Beth
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What are some of the Sufi sources that you have been extracting
these nuggets from?
I saw a book at the used bookstore the other day that reminded
me of you Ken and I wish I could remember the title now, darn it.
The title had the word "Desert" in it and it had something to do
with the Goddess speaking through the Sufi's. Sufi Goddess poetry.
It was pretty interesting.
Beth
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>Beth,
>
>The fact is I'm just cribbing like mad from
>the research done by others. The Mandaeans
>and Manicheans are a central focus of Hugh
>Nibley. The Druze, Isma'ili, Thugee, Bahai,
>and Yazidis are all explicitly Sufi break-offs.
>
>You da' babe!
>
>Ken
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JSW wrote:
> ___Don Bradley___
> OK, let's see the tarot stuff so we can "_really_ mutate."
> -----
>
> ROTFL! Easier to do in a discussion with Robert, as he is already familiar
> with Tarot.
>
(snickers) This is cool. Everyone is now on hand, and we could get
started anytime. Let's see if I can stir the pot a little.
Take the Star. Is that Kolob? Siriusly!
I am more familiar the Kabbalistic overtones of the temple rite, for
example, the temple keys are isomorphous with the sepheroth. They are
marked on the body, and in the right hand. Unfortunately, some of this
was lost when the rite was changed.
This isomorphism is also found in temple archictecture, for example,
take the Arizona Temple. Call the vestibule Malkuth and the Celestial
room Kether. Starting in Malkuth, pass through some doors, and you are
at Yesod, the base of the staircase. Go up to Tiphareth, the endowment
level. On the right is a mural of Joseph's baptism. On the left is
Hyrum with a staff. Look up and you will see a glass panel marking the
position of Daath, then through a doorway to Kether the celestial room.
This type of thing is also found in the newer temples. It is not hard
to overlay the sephiroth on the Chicago temple for example. I have alot
more in my magickal journal (c. 1986). Unfortunately, I am a little
limited about what I can say ;-}.
For the future, I would I would like to examine how the tarot relates to
all of this. Clearly, if there is a kabbalistic gloss to the temple
rite, then there will be a gloss to the tarot keys as well... by
definition.
Here is one more little dittie just for fun. Consider the enochian P L
A. Sound familiar? It is rendered "the wonderful above" or "oh
wonderful God". Numerically it is 1000 signifying the starry expanse
and a bird in a boat (see book of abraham facsimile 2 figure 4.) Nibley
calls the egytian "khabsw" (!) (Abraham in Egypt p 39). BTW, if you
are into enochian, take another look at the ring of Solomon right now.
So, I am anxious to hear more observations from the rest of you (thanx
Art for the Justice/Maat material!). This could be the whole reason for
this little gathering. Who else could you talk to who would so
appreciate this stuff? ;-}
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Beth any wrote:
> Well Brother Black...Do you prefer to be called Robert or Bob?
> I went out and purchased a Rider-Waite Deck finally.
>
> Would you prefer to do our little seminar by phone or do you
> think there is any way to bring this to all of the Mutants?
Do it here, puleeeze!
proclus
> Boy what I would give to hear tidbits from Art's spiral notebooks....
>
> Beth
>
> >From 74277.3365@compuserve.com Fri Feb 6 23:39:04 1998
> >Received: (from root@localhost)
> > by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id CAA12173;
> > Sat, 7 Feb 1998 02:38:07 -0500 (EST)
> >Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 02:34:21 -0500
> >From: "Robert R. Black" <74277.3365@compuserve.com>
> >Subject: Merovignian Kings
> >Sender: "Robert R. Black" <74277.3365@compuserve.com>
> >To: Artdel-Hoyos , Beth ,
> > Don Bradley , Dave ,
> > Gaia , Michael Love ,
> > rpc man , Andy McGuire
> ,
> > Kathleen McGuire ,
> > "R. Trent Reyolds" ,
> > Randall Shortridge , Sidheach
> ,
> > Joe Steve Swick III
> >Message-ID: <199802070237_MC2-3250-776D@compuserve.com>
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Disposition: inline
> >
> >Woops, I forgot to include the Phone number for Barnes & Noble. Here it
> is.
> >
> > 1-800-843-2665
> >
> >Robert.
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Beth any wrote:
> It was also funny to me how even though I was supposedly at these
> rituals worshipping the consort of Christ, the Goddess how present
> Christ was there with me. I kept thinking about the scriptures
> where God, or who I believe Christ to be speaking or even Christ
> and his Goddess speaking as one, saying "everything testifies of me".
> Or the "I am in all things and through all things" scriptures.
> (Now to me, I have begun to equate the latter scripture as refferring
> to the "Light of Christ" which I am absolutely convinced is the Life
> force energy that the Chinese call Chi and the Hindus Prana etc. etc. in
> fact I have a chart I have compiled with about 50 terms for it both
> ancient and modern in every culture. I am a big Wilhelm Reich fan and he
> called it Orgone.)
I've often wondered about orgone, and if we even have a word for it in
Mormonism. If there is an orgone force, then it is flowing like mad, even in
a typical prayer circle!
> So I when I reflected on that weekend I felt like a missionary trying
> to bridge two worlds so that they may become one, like I know in some
> primordial beginning they must have been. I have been thinking a lot
> about Eve's sacrifice. That part of the sacrifice of Eve was the
> sacrifice of our knowledge of the Goddess. That the Hebrew Goddess
> Asherah and Eve were once understood as being one and the same.
>
> Well I hope this isn't too touchy feely for such a scholarly list
> as this but I just tell it like I see it.
I hope that we are not engaged in what is merely a mental exercise here ;-}.
I think that most of us are looking for more than scholarship. Bless us that
we might actually do something with our knowledge here one of these days.
Your insights are welcome here, Beth.
> My last thought was that it occured to me that the reason the
> four directions are invoked in a circle is becuase the circle
> is not a permanent structure, you are casting your sacred space
> fresh and it will be cast and then disbanded later when the area
> is used for something else. Whereas with a temple structure, it
> is built and set there to be sacred space permanently. The temple
> is built in alignment with the four directions etc. and therefore
> do not need to be invoked everytime. Some may disagree with me
> but these were just my reflections. Joseph Smith said that the
> saints could recieve their endowments on a mountain top but
> that temple buldings were for the rich. I imagine if Joseph
> went to the mountaintop he would have invoked the elements and
> created a sacred space in much the same way that pagans do today.
> Or in the same way that the ancient Hebrews did in the groves of
> Oak trees (sound familiar?) in ancient times when there was no permanent
> temple. (I am thinking back to Collier's pamphlets on the subject in
> which Bob Black, Mormon Magus was the one who pointed out the
> information to him).
I think that this is a brilliant observation, and I would like to get the
opinion of a ceremonial magician on this. What is the advantage of doing the
ritual in a dedicated rectilinear chamber?
I think that the compass points are there implicitly, but I hope to see a
mountain top endowment one of these days. I think that we lose something by
not having to dedicate a circle and salute the four quarters. We lose
something by always meeting in rooms that are made by human hands too ;-}.
Many of my most powerful spiritual experiences were out in nature.
> For the first time in my life I finally understand what it means to
> have a "cathedral of trees", for a forest to be your temple. What
> an amazing experience that would be.
>
> It all reminds me that probably my favorite part in that whole
> Mutant archive is when AJ is telling about his early experiences
> with both Mormonism and "paganism" and says that he never felt the Holy
> Spirit in the way that Mormons were always talking about until he went
> on a pagan excursion with his friends to Mount Timpanogos and then felt
> the Spirit really strong for the first time in his life
> (did I hack that one too bad AJ?).
>
> I guess I can't say much else......what a long strange trip it's
> been, as usual. I'm tired ;-)
>
> Beth
Blessed Be =}
proclus
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Robert R. Black wrote:
>
> Proclus wrote:
>
> "While true, it does not show in any degree that the Merovingians are that
> line. We could just as well argue that the generation of Jesus was lost in
> ignominy."
>
> _____________
>
> You might be interested in a book recently remaindered by Barnes & Noble
> in catalog number H41X 1019 item number E157002. "Bloodline of the Holy
> Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed" by Laurence Gardner (the
> genealogist for the Jacobite royal family). 489 pps Hard Cover. $12.98.
> This shows the genealogy through the Merovingians to Jesus Christ. It
> pretty much follows my own genealogy.
I've printed out your message, and I intend to have a look at the book. I am
open to the possibility, but I have yet to see any research that was
conclusive enough to overcome my natural skepticism regarding royal
blood-lines.
> There are many problems, however. It claims that Joseph of Arimithea was
> the same person as James the Brother of Jesus. This I do not believe.
This is just the kind of thing that makes me doubt the whole prospect.
Everyone has a ax to grind here. Furthermore, there is just to much to gain
from a royal geneology, so these claims are suspect by definition.
proclus
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> Art and Neoptomlus,
>
> My fur brained notions in this area are
> patheticly naive, but I buy Idries Shah's
> argument for the existance of a planetary
> network of "Conscious" people carrying
> out a "conspiracy" to lead humanity to
> a the fulfulment of their destiny.
Ken, I promise you that I am going to get and read The Sufi's soon. It's long
overdue. I think that we are part of the conspiracy!
> This "Conscious" element in the population
> would recognize each other by their peculiar
> qualities, as well as being in "communion"
> with each other on a subtle level. They would
> live and work in every culture and religious tradition,
> as well as taking any social position that was
> useful for their invidual "project", from leper to king.
>
> Sometimes communities crystilize around "Conscious"
> individuals as craft guilds or businesses or esoteric
> religious movements. But these are always understood
> to be secondary manifestations subject to the mechanical
> degradation of all "unconscious" activities. The aims of
> the "Conscious" leven of humanity continue to be carried
> out in new forms even as the many abandoned "shells"
> of previous "projects" continue blindly along by their own
> inertia.
This is, of course, another Doris Lessing parallel. Religions are seen as
junky obsolete extra-terrestrial technologies. This is one of the great
things about Mormonism, IMHO. Since it is an evolving religion of continuing
revelation, it is less likely to become out of date. This is why I am always
trying to restate the teachings in more modern and scientific usage. We need
to abandon the allegories of the past, when the real knowledge comes along.
Lessing's world is the more disturbing though, when you realize that the
technologies are not for "the fulfulment of their destiny", but merely for
mitigating the effect of living in a degrading world. You must think of the
divine life as the normal state of affairs, and earth as an exception, where
we must overcome our lost and fallen state.
> I'm personaly conviced that Mormonism is probably one
> of those "projects". It was carried out to produce a
> specific impact, on a specific gene pool, at a specific time
> and place, to produce a specific "development".
I can go along with that. We have to find out what that development is and
get on with it.
proclus
> << To the contrary, there is *no* credible evidence that Freemasonry has any
> lineal historical ties to the Knights Templar. This is a myth that has been
> repeated by Masons and non-Masons alike. >>
>
> Of this I am well aware, but I do not find the English history of the craft
> very compelling. I have read the Stevenson's book, "The Origins of
> Scottish..." and found that very informative. I'll look at the other works you
> have suggested.
>
> I also think that while there is no *hard* evidence about such a connection,
> the connection is, on the other hand, not impossible either. Even if there is
> no connection at all, I would continue to maintain that there is something
> distinctive about the craft that remains unnaccounted for. I sincerely doubt
> that it is simply a series of rituals designed for identification of levels of
> instruction in the physical craft. In my mind there remain alot of questions
> with regards to origins.
>
> The Templar myth is attractive and ennobles the craft. It isn't impossible.
> The hard history has many many questions. Though the real source is yet to be
> concretely identified, I bet it will be more interesting than the English
> version of the history.
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ArtdeHoyos@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-02-04 17:20:53 EST, Neoptolmus writes:
>
> > This must be the origin of the Templar ceremonies that gave birth to the
> > masonic ritual, which is poorly understood by its own initiates (not that I
> > have any corner on it either).
>
> To the contrary, there is *no* credible evidence that Freemasonry has any
> lineal historical ties to the Knights Templar. This is a myth that has been
> repeated by Masons and non-Masons alike.
Nevertheless, this traditional theory is irresistibly glamorous. Do you think
that it is plausible that there could be a link with the templars? Likely?
How about the Mandaeans/Nasare? It appears that this very old religion
includes some masonic practices. There is no direct evidence of a link that I
am aware of, but the idea of a link is certainly tantalizalizing. It ain't
history, but it sure is fun!
I also have a question for Neoptolmus. Have you read Hiram Key? They discuss
many of these wild theories regarding the origins of freemasonry. They give
alot of good background for people who have broader interests outside of
freemasonry as well.
proclus
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Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> For those who find the subject interesting, you may find an online set of
> the BOTA Tarot Keys at the following website:
>
> http://www.emporia.edu/m/www/art/george/keys.htm
I've got this downloading now, and it's taking forever. It is an excellent
resource though, which I intend to reconstruct for my personal use, minus the
3meg animated png. Thanks for the link!
>
>
> These might be an interesting starting-place for a discussion on Tarot. The
> gentleman who owns the page is a Latter-day Saint, and a personal friend of
> mine. You may wish to look at his other pages...some interesting stuff, even
> if some of the graphical content is heavy to download. If you find his
> comments on Kabbalah and Tarot to be interesting, please consider inviting
> him to our list, where we can all mutate together.
Any mormon who put this much work into the tarot keys needs to be on this list
IMHO.
I've already posted most of what I know about kabbalistic parallels. This
implicates the tarot automatically. Furthermore, as a depiction of the
initiatory path, the tarot keys would certainly have other parallels as well.
I have never seriously explored this myself, but if there is someone who has, I
can't think of a better venue for discussing it.
proclus
>
>
> JSW
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Sidheach wrote:
> Hail Mutants!
>
> The word "mysticism" may have lost
> its meaning because of overuse, but
> the reality that it used to refer to still
> exists.
That would be fine with me ;-}.
>
>
> When Joseph Smith talks about salvation
> coming through the "Knowledge of Christ"
> alone, it's clear that he's talking about a
> "state of being", rather than any kind of
> aprehension of an idea.
This is not clear to me. Take "knowledge of God" from KFS. It means
understanding a process of deification, not a mystical state.
Similarly, "knowledge of Christ" would mean understanding as well. This
seems like the apprehension of an idea to me.
> I believe that the
> "Knowledge of Christ" alters one functioning
> such that Consecration, Theocracy and
> Celestial Marraige seem natural and right.
Oooo! Have you read P. K. Dick's Divine Invasion? Wow, he is talking
about this kind of twittering about of the neurons as well. ;-} What
about all of those alien mind control episodes of Star Trek the Next
Generation? In this view, "knowledge of god" means changed by god.
I'm going to be blunt, and I hope you won't take this badly, but this
seems like double talk to me. We have two aspects; what we know, and
what we do. I'm not sure that I want God hacking my neurons. I'd
rather have an explanation for what He wants me to do. Maybe when I
understand, I will go out and do it.
proclus
>
>
> It dawned on me clear back in '82 when I
> re-read "The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph
> Smith" that Joseph's soterology was purely
> "Gnostic", that is, that evil is ignorance and
> salvation is the removal of that ignorance.
>
> This is an asronishingly Buddhist view, and
> this is why I consider Buddhism to be the
> "meta-system" that is the key to unlocking
> all authentic traditions, especially Mormonism.
>
> Is Buddhism "mysticism"? The word "Mystery"
> means "to close the mouth". One may "close
> the mouth" because of oaths and penalties and
> that is a "Mystery", or one may "close the mouth"
> because the color yellow cannot be described to
> one born blind. Buddhism attempts to describe
> reality in a completly lucid and scientific way, but
> the realities it alludes to can only be apprehended
> by the attaining of specific "states of consciousness".
>
> Thus we can say that "mysticism" is any knowledge
> that is "state specific".
>
> I absolutely believe that "Gnosis" can be reached through
> authentic traditions no matter what the "religion" of that
> traditon is in, whether Muslim or Jewish or Christian.
>
> As for me, the path of the "prayer of the heart" is the Way.
>
> I love you all,
> Kenneth Shaw
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JSW wrote:
> ___Proclus___
> It is difficult for me to see any basis for a mormon mysticism in light of
> the King Follet address, or the portrayal of God in the temple. Our God is
> not a mystery IMHO.
> -----
>
> I entirely disagree. I believe that by their very nature, Joseph's Smith's
> own encounters with God are mystical and "transcendent," and that Mormonism
> is situated quite squarely in this tradition, our own nay-saying
> notwithstanding.
>
I'd say that Joseph encountered a human god, as he testified on many
occasions. No mystery here. Are the terms mystical or transcendent are
accurate? I don't think that Joseph described his encounters in this
manner.
> What in the KFD do you suppose hints otherwise? Now, I
> don't believe that Mormonism IS Mysticism -- and certainly there is a
> strongly anti-mystical, anti-charismatic current in the Church. However,
> "mysticism" need not mean "unreal" or "imagined," or even simply "mental
> states," as is clear to any who have had such experiences. I highly
> recommend Kaplan's book, _Meditation and the Bible_, and _Meditation and
> Kabbalah_. These are worthy of your attention for the quoted source material
> alone. (Interestingly, Kaplan draws a line between authentic prophetic
> traditions and techniques and those soothsayers and fakirs!
>
As I have said elsewhere, Joseph testified that God is a man, and that
if we encountered him, that we would encounter a man.
> Kaplan notes
> that the "other techniques" work, but are not authorized.)
>
This is excellent point that I think we could work on. It seems to me
that there are other techniques that work. I'd posit that most sins are
merely a matter of premature righteousness. We learn from the D&C that
laws have exceptions. How is it that the killing of Laban was not
murder? It could be that Adam and Eve merely partook of the fruit
prematurely. In this view, God had a plan for dispensing the fruit
after they had been properly prepared. This is an easy gloss for other
types of sin. Fornication is premature sex. Adultery is premature
polygamy, and so on. Commandments are rules, and every rule has an
exception. God knows all the exceptions.
In this view, drugs and other techniques are prematurely activating the
divine brain. How does this relate to the mystical experience? to
premature certainty?
> As for the idea that in Mormonism "God is not a mystery," I would argue that
> while He is not a mystery TO SOME, He certainly is to most! King Follet
> notwithstanding, God becomes more of a mystery the closer we draw to the
> Protestant theological vocabulary and view.
>
A good reason to shun the Protestant theological vocabulary! Likewise,
ishould be apparent that I won't be much use to the Adam/God theorists
in the group. I think that the Adam Qadman material is purely
allegorical. Adam is God in the same sense that Isaiah is Elijah, that
is, they have things in common. They are in the same class.
Platonically, Adam is a lesser image of God, an emanation of God. You
are too. Adam as Michael is LIKE God. You are too. That's my two
cents worth.
> I'm not the guy who has
> repeatedly said that we don't really understand what the KFD means when it
> says that God was once a man; I'm not the one who said "I don't know that we
> teach that."
>
Whoever said this, I think that they are vastly mistaken. Call me an
apostate, 'cause I think that I just remembered who it is ;-}
> Yet even in Mormonism, the Gates of
> Revelation generally open for one man at a time, and individuals blessed to
> pass through this Gate are not able to fully communicate their experience to
> those who have not shared in it (Alma 12:9-12). Like Lehi and Nephi's shared
> vision, we may (must) each recieve it for ourselves... individually. How is
> this NOT mysticism?
>
It can be more easily explained in terms of a human God who can only be
in one place at one time.
> ___Proclus___
> Furthermore, I consider that the planet is literally in a lost and fallen
> state. This is not figurative for me. Blayne and I had quite some
> difficulty over this point. I am REALLY bothered by the condescending "You
> just don't
> get it yet" that I hear sometimes. I'm not interested in discussing mental
> states. Just pass me the technology.
> -----
>
> You only say this because you are trying to understand it
> with your carnal mind. So knock it off, and "let it be." You already have
> the technology; you just haven't awoke to the fact yet.
>
> Warmest Regards,
> JSW
>
ROTFL! How did you keep a straight face while saying that! ;-}
Love ya, man
proclus
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> Mike,
>
Andy, my good old friend.
> Hail Eris!
>
All Hail Discordia! Let the lasagna fly!
> Let us bring this down to earth.
>
Praise Bob!
> I am afraid that I lean toward Joe's position on this. When you throw out the
> dictionary definitions of 'mysticism' and 'mystic' and look at the people are
> mystics, what do you get? Mainly people who know there is something outside or
> above themselves, and who aspire to it. They usually aspire to it through
> meditations and similar spiritual practices: Practices that have the potential
> to change the person profoundly from within. Practices that are also often
> frowned upon by the corporate church.
>
Yes, they are techniques for activating the divine brain ;-}. This is a
possible definition of a mutant.
> So what happens if you step outside the mystic mindset and say that God is no
> mystery, but I still aspire to be like him? The answer is to aspire through
> obedience, diligence, etc.....in other words, the mindless crap that flows in
> the typical Sacrament Meeting High Council talk. I don't know about you, but
> that kind of action leaves me spiritually empty.
>
Ouch! Do you really think that this is the other horn of a dilemma? I
think that a high councillor is a pretty sorry notion of God. The God I
want to emulate is one who has attained the SMI^2LE scenario. In other
words, he is a man who has learned how to live forever and go anywhere
he wants as fast as he wants. This is the essence of KFS and SMI^2LE.
They are one in the same.
> So as you look at the two alternatives, what do you choose? Become like God
> through a 'Corporate Ladder' model? Or become like Goddess by ascending the
> mystic's stairway to heaven?
>
As I said, I think that this is a false dichotomy. I'm going to do
whatever it takes. KFS says that God made some laws to make it easier
for weak souls like me to become like him. If I can just get to know
him better, then I will SMI^2LE along with him.
> As for 'Give me the technology', the techniques and beliefs of the mystic ARE
> the technology. Although I don't know why I am telling this to you, Mike, the
> man who started me on the mystic's path. "We place not our trust in virgin or
> pigeon. Our method is science, our aim is religion."
>
> All Hail Discordia!
>
Andy, we cannot be told this enough. Through this discussion, it has
always been in the back of my mind. I think that we should tatoo
Crowley's remark on our foreheads.
proclus
> -AJ
>
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> The web address will be on my revised links page which should be up, but
> still under construction, by tomorrow (Tuesday). You can go to the
> address on the links page or to the new one:
>
> http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~rds/lds/temple.htm
>
Thanks for updating your website with all of these excellent links. I
would like to give a link to you bio from the mutant webpage, if that is
ok. This goes for any of you that have bios on the web. Just let me
know.
>
>
> The site will be called "Temple of God" and will include links to some
>
> of Kehau's stuff as well as other things about the symbolism of the
> endowment. I will say that I don't agree with all of the things that
> will be on the page (including some of Kehau's things and
> interpretations in the Temple book), but it will be there anyway for
> anyone who is interested. Hope the site doesn't offend anyone on the
> mutant list cause it will link the temple book which is posted in
> Jahnihah's site. Well, if I get kicked off, I guess I can call myself
>
> "super mutant" or "mutant mutant" or something similar.
>
> Mutant squared? ;-)
I can't imagine what it would take to get someone kicked of this list.
I must say that your voice is welcome here Eleazar.
proclus
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Sorry I've gotten so behind. Life has been about finishing a degree,
getting another paper, setting up an x-ray lab, and wallpapering the
kitchen! I ordered some chinese food, but I didn't have time to answer
my email :(. Anyway...
> Hail Mutants!
>
> I've been mulling things over and over since
> this merry band formed, and it's become clear
> to me how problematic "belief" really is.
>
I'm a little lost here Ken. What do you mean?
> In my younger days I thought it would be possible
> to hammer out a comprehensive systematic theology
> along the lines of B. H. Roberts and bring "reform"
> to the Church from the ground up. Me and about a
> thousand other guys of varying degrees of paranoid
> delusionality.
>
I've been there. It seems that in every stage of my life I had a
different idea of the shortcomings of the church, and my plan for
infiltrating and/or reforming and/or changing it. I've grown weary of
chasing SLC, and I've decided instead to do it here with you folks
instead. This egalitarian thrust is part of what I am learning from you
all.
> I noticed that more clearly I defined the doctrinal
> system of Mormonism, the less I felt the Living
> Presence of the Mystery. I got to the point
> where I didn't really pray anymore because
> somehow I felt like I had already apprehended
> the Mind of God...and then again it was hard
> to feel the simple love of calling out "Abba"
> to a loving Father when I was concieving
> chains of "Adam-Saviors" and Joseph Smith
> as Logos...blah...blah...blah..blah...
>
> Maybe it's like the "Uncertainty Principle" in
> quantum mechanics, you can either have theology
> or you can have God, but you can't have both at
> the same time.
>
I've known my wife for 15 years, and I don't love her any less.
Nevertheless, I think I know what you mean. Knowing someone is not the
same as knowing about someone. I would now characterize my feelings
towards God as love and admiration. It has been a long journey for me
to get to this point. The more I learn about God the more I admire him.
I have a problem which does not allow me to grok this in full. You see,
I have never considered God as a mystery.... never will. I may lack
some understanding of him, or He has some understanding that I lack.
I'd expect that as I get to know him better, that I will love and
respect him more, just like some admirable mentor. No mystery there.
This is the root of my objection to a mormon mysticism. Joseph said in
King Follet that if you saw God, you would see a man. Well, I'm a man,
and I can understand what a man is (well, most of the time). The idea
here is that if you meet someone who you admire, you may want to emulate
them. You may come to love them. This is my notion of that man who is
known as God. He took some stuff and made our planet. This is pretty
pragmatic and not mystical at all.
Lee wrote:
>>>Life is interesting
>>>we are the temple of God, and we are God>>>
So, I would rather say that we are Gods. He made a beautiful world for
us, and He wants to show us how to do it.
> GAIA:
> Mormonism *can* be seen as a mystery cult: you must go thru an initatory
> experience before being "introduced" to the innermost mysteries (in the
> Temple). In a "mystery" or "mystical" religion, it's not necessarily
> that God is a mystery, but rather that there are some things that may
> only be experienced THRU a mystical experience. They do no lend
> themselves to rational explanation/ exposition. They must be
> *experienced* to be understood.
>
> So a better question is, what is a mystical experience?
> What is a "mystical" consciousness?
>
For example there is a kind of expansive consciousness which one can
feel when close to nature. When I am feeling this, it seems like a
pantheistic universe, only I'm the god! This does not mean that it IS a
pantheistic universe. It also feels like the universe is alive, but the
universe could be alive and not be God. I imagine that God has these
very human feelings too.
> I guess this is why I pretty much lost my taste
> for "Fundamentalist" rant, because I heard it all
> and I don't like where it takes me.
>
You are alot further down that road than me. I am just beginning to get
important insights from fundamentalism. For example, I think that
Jahninah is miles ahead of me in understanding the UO/LofC/TOP current
that we are working on right now. Thank you for introducing me to those
characters!
proclus
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Gaia wrote:
> The economic system is the Law of Consecration and Stewardship. It
> consists of consecrating your all to God, and receiving back a
> stewardship over which you are responsible and for which you *reap*
> *the* *rewards* . This is quite different from the United Order, where
> "all things are held in common." While the latter is more like
> socialism, the former makes use of the best elements of free enterprise
> -- the incentive to constantly grow, improve, because you reap the
> rewards of your efforts. And it works in not only an agrarian culture,
> but in all kinds of systems. We will not have to go back to farming in
> order to institute the LofC.
>
I think that this is a recent interpretation. By this definition, you
can live LofC today on your own. This lacks the sense of community that
I think is implicit in any consideration of UO/LofC. Under the Law of
Consecration we establish Zion together.
> The political order is the Kingdom of God on Earth -- in which those
> who've been anointed "Kings and Queens" in the Kingdom "rule and reign"
> under Christ. Not everyone will have to be members of the religious
> order to benefit from this system, btw. Diversity is more than
> tolerated, and everyone's rights are respected and upheld. (Jahnihah,
> please do NOT split semantic hairs with me on this, ok? You may have a
> word / concept that you prefer over "rights" and you're welcome to share
> it, but i certainly hope you will do so respectfully -- and frankly,
> it's about time you learned how. I think most of us understand what i
> mean when i use the word "rights" -- basic civil and human rights with
> which, i believe, we are ALL "endowed by our Creator".)
>
I tend to agree on this, but I think that the traditional language is
unfortunate. We are not monarchists. I see that kingdom of God in the
kind of temple clutches that formed in Nauvoo. We all reign under
Christ because we are in the lineage of Adam. We kept the covenant.
This idea is of course linked to LofC above. The kingdom of God is the
link between us, and Zion is what happens when we respect that link. We
share together burdens and joys.
I think I see a thrust of what you are trying to say here. We don't
need a corporate UO to live the LofC. All we need is a circle of people
who recognize their brotherhood and want to do something about it, to
pursue the implications of that brotherhood, to make TOP a symbol of the
way that we live our lives. The first time I saw TOP, I immediately
thought of its symbolic nature. In the circle we press the palms, we
face eachother, we send off an offering, a kind of commerce with heaven,
but together in a small group. It is powerful and intimate. Now think
of living your whole life that way. I think that this is what Joseph
was trying to build in Nauvoo. The power structures could not bear
empowerment at such a basic level. In this light, a corporate UO could
even be seen as a usurpation. TOP is the sacrament of Zion's return.
> The social order of the Kingdom is based on the idea that everyone
> deserves a mate who fulfills them emotionally, spiritually,
> psychologically, intellectually, physically; and that all children
> deserve to be raised in an environment of (emotional, spiritual
> and material) abundance.
>
Excellent! I agree 100%.
> If a couple feels that they can accomplish both of these ends in a
> strictly monogamous relationship, i see absolutely no reason why they
> should not be able to do so. (Congratulations, Laura and Eleazar, and
> others of you lucky, hardworking folks who've accomplished this!!) And
> perhaps in a perfect environment, with perfect people, this may be the
> norm. But as many of us have experienced, it is sometimes difficult for
> one single person to fulfill all of one's needs. And It was especially
> true that more women than men were capable of living higher laws.
> Therefore, polygamy was instituted to
> a) allow more women to have men that fulfilled them;
> b) raise more children to build up the church;
> c) enable "sister wives" to care for the children while women obtained
> training and education to come back to the church as doctors, lawyers,
> etc.
>
I think that this domestic model is an excellent example of what I am
trying to say about LofC. I stand aghast at the coherance of the vision
of Joseph Smith, and at the impoverishment of this generation.
> The reason you associate all of these things with the temple is that the
> temple is the focal point for them all -- it's where one receives the
> instruction, power and authority to function in all these arenas as
> God's anointed, and put under covenant to do so.
>
I think that we are now pretty close to summing all of this up
coherently. Here are a few points;
1. LofC is system of stewardship, of shared responsibility with in a
group.
2. UO is a stop gap, and a corporate version of LofC.
3. TOP is a symbolic representation of LofC, which charges the group
with power, and reminds them of their spiritual and ancestral linkage.
4. Plural marraige is the ultimate expression of LofC.
(proclus looks around the circle.) Did I miss anything? Please, anyone
jump in. I really want this nailed, because I think it is a fundamental
part of what we are trying to do in this group.
proclus
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I had just finished preparing this today and a question was
raised on Shulemna about "witchcraft" and I thought that it
was a synchronistic time to post this being I was already going to do
so.
So this is a 3 list Krosspost to the 3 Degree's of Listdom.
I am sorry it is not as aesthetically pleasing as my Clarisworks version
with the variety of print sizes, italics and various colors for easier
reading.It is about 9 pages long. I hope if one doesn't have time to
read eachindividual review that they will at least note the various
titlesetc. for future reference.
Beth
----------------
Here is the updated Mormon Magickal Study Materials List:
(I don*t believe or agree with every word I read and I don't expect
anyone else to, so take what you like and leave the rest).
A little trivia to start with:
Before anyone goes decrying the "pagan" 5 pointed pentacle as
satanic, it is written that it was none other than the archangel Raphael
who delivered this symbol to Solomon himself. Go check out the front of
the SLC temple....
...The very term "School of the Prophets" was around long before Joseph
Smith established HIS "School of the Prophets", it has been a term used
by occult mystery schools associated with initiatory groups for a very
long time; Theosophy comes to mind. Joseph was not the only one to come
up with this name.
Some of the articles mentioned in this list are reprinted in the
appendix of the printed edition of this list.
------------------------Begin List---------------------------------
Here is Absalom*s article:
Mormonism is a Pagan Religion: Root of the problem with Christianity
http://www.absalom.com/mormon/belief/pagan.html
The rest of the site is good as well:
http://www.absalom.com/mormon/contents.htm
Here is Eleazer*s website called Temple of God which has some good
esoteric material on it:
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~rds/lds/temple.htm
A website with one of the BEST articles on the Book of Mormon I have
ever read (as well as why J.S. retranslated portions of the Bible the
way he did) .....It is about the Kabbalistic characteristics of the B of
M. Of course most "Christians" say that Kabbalah is "OCCULT" or "PAGAN"
so the Book of Mormon may be even worse than the "Christians" feared
;-)However the Jews understand that the mark of TRUE scripture includes
the use of Gematria.Guess what.... the Book of Mormon passes the test!
Gematria has been found in it.
http://users.pullman.com/beaumont/QabalahMormon.html
other cool websites:
LDS psychedelic church - *Peyote Way Church of God*
http://www.primenet.com/~idic/peyote.html
An article whose title seems to sum up this whole phenomena in one
sentence:
Joseph Smith Was New Age before New Age was Cool.
http://www.webcom.com/jtc6563/t2.html
Kehau*s site has a discussion on the paralells between Mormonism and
Masonry as well as discussion on the meaning of the Endowment:
http://www.aloha.net/~kehau/LDS/Endow/Endmain.htm
It would be a great find to be able to get your hands on a copy of the
underground gem:
The Masonic Emblem and Parchments of Joseph & Hyrum Smith with copies
and research done by Art DeHoyos... but he doesn't distribute or sell
these. This has been passed around from copy machines around the globe.
I have calculated that mine is probably about a fifth generation copy.
Here is Art*s website where he has an online book defending Masonry and
striking down some of the more lurid rumors about the Craft:
http://members.aol.com/adehoyos/chap1.htm
Here is the website for the list that Art and I and some others are on.
On this list we have Mormons who believe their brains were warped by
Robert Anton Wilson, Terrence McKenna and Timothy Leary, and a number of
other magicians as well ;-). We have two Mormon 32 degree Masons, we
have a Mormon 3rd Degree High Priestess and ordained minister in the
Covenant of the Goddess, a handful of self described Pagan Occult
Mormons and magickal students, a scholar who was the one who pointed out
the Hebrew Goddess stuff to Fred Collier and reportedly quite the Mormon
Magus. He introduced us to the fourth person I have run into who has
correlated the Tarot deck with the Endowment.
Here are the Mutant websites:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/6443/
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/6443/discus.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/6443/discus2.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/6443/discus3.html
Here is the URL for a website on the Tarot by yet another Mormon:
http://www.emporia.edu/m/www/art/george/keys.htm
The next article by none other than Mormon fundamentalist gives
archeological evidence that the pre-Mosaic Hebrews worshipped the
Goddess right along side *El*. Was it many of these peoples that
migrated into Europe and brought their traditions with them? The Hebrew
Goddess has become VERY WELL documented in recent years. The Hebrews
worshipped Asherah in groves of Oak Trees... sounds like the Druids to
me. The paralells seem like more than a coincidence. This ties in so
much with the some of the British Isreal stuff on Druids it*s amazing.
http://www.zianet.com/collier/
Go to: Doctrines of the Priesthood to read excerpts from these articles.
I was going to make photocopies of the following two articles to send to
people and when I was looking over my copies of the articles the other
day I noticed that Fred Collier, the publisher, said that if people keep
making copies of his articles he will go out of business. Well I think
he is too important a resource to let that happen so I want to respect
that and HIGHLY encourage you to order these two articles.
This is the article that really explains why not only are there so many
ancient paralells between the Hebrews and the pagans but it explains to
me why there are paralells between the modern Mormons and pagans as
well.
The Common Origin of the Ancient Hebrew/Pagan Religion and the Demise of
the Hebrew Goddess
This article is 52 pgs. and $3.00
The Matriarchal Priestesshood & Emma's Right to Succession as High
Priestess & Queen
This article is 19 pgs. and $2.50
The second article has a lot of info about how Joseph Smith III's right
to succeed ties in with all of this. Fascinating perspective on the
matriarchal priesthood and the succession controversy. A view no one
has probably considered before. (The shipping and handling for both is
$1.50)
Collier's Publishing Company
P.O. Box 1919
Silver City, New Mexico 88061
Here is another resource I highly encourage you to read. This book is
ONLY $5.00 ! This one goes hand in hand with the Pagan/Hebrew Goddess
stuff above. It's called Stonehenge and Druidism by E. Raymond Capt.
http://www.bacnet.com/artisan.htm
(It takes QUITE awhile for this page to load so don't think it's done
loading til it's done loading)
Some of the British Israel people believe, and some of the early LDS
leaders taught, that the Ancient Britons and Celt's were at times Gods
"Covenant people" (in their pure form ). That is what Britain means is
*Land of the Covenant". I have the book which is listed on the above
website, written by a a conservative type Christian guy (not some wacko
;-) who is an archeologist, not a "pagan" or even a Mormon, who shows
that the Druids in their PURE form were Gods covenant priesthood,
remnant or descendants of Hebrews who migrated to the Isles of the Sea
and brought their traditions with them.
A good LDS companion volume to this which quotes the above book at
length is Whence Came They: Israel, Britain and the Restoration by
Vaughn E. Hansen PHD. with a picture of Stonehenge on the front and a
star of David/ Seal of Solomon overlaying it. It has a great LDS
perspective to the whole British Isreal thing with lots of doctrinal
quotes and teachings of the early LDS church leaders that correlate
with the information.
I also recommend Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Baigent and Leigh. The
descendants of Christ and their magical ways tie in with all the rest of
these puzzle pieces.
Another great book is finally out in paperback called Bloodline of the
Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed by Laurence Gardner.
This one is (apparently) written by modern day members
of the *secret society* the Priory de Zion themselves. It ties in the
historical King Arthur as well as the esoteric Grail teachings with all
of the rest of these puzzle pieces; the esoteric teachings of Christ,
his descendants, the Grail teachings of the Tarot. There is also a bit
about Sacred Geometry in here. It is interesting to note that it says in
this book that Jesus sent his son to a Druid school.
Of course they were reportedly the best around at the time...no surprise
there. The bibliography in this book is the most EXTENSIVE I have seen
anywhere having to do with the topics listed on this list. There are
ancient texts listed here that I have never even heard of.
There is also a book by Mormon fundamentalist Ogden Kraut called Jesus
Was Married which contains some evidence for this case.
Speaking of Ogden Kraut he also did a book, relevent to this discussion
on choosing and using a seer stone in the tradition of Joseph. Many of
the early saints used them.
There have been other books written on *the Lost Years of Jesus* (too
many to name) that seem interesting.
Here*s another one - Was Jesus Married?: The Distortion of Sexuality in
the Christian Tradition by William E. Phipps.
I would have to say that I have been going over PLENTY of historical
information to warrant the assertion that the reason that the WITCHES
(not just Templars and Cathars and Masons) were put to death in the
middle ages was because they were a remnant of primitive Christianity
and/or the primitive Pagan/Hebrew religion. Of course "Hebrew" or
"Christian" or NOT, as keepers of the Wise Ways the world over ...and
these Wise Ways do have many paralells in every culture.... they have
all been persecuted by the power structures who would rather have the
masses be ignorant of the ways of nature and the ways of the universe.
But it seems this bloodline in particular have been the keepers of these
mysteries from time immemorial and have been persecuted, killed or
infiltrated and corrupted over and over again because of it.
Interesting trivia: The Rastafarians have an interesting mystical
tradition and believe they are descended from the tribe of Judah. There
is actual historical evidence to show this is true.
Graham Hancock*s book on the Ark of the Covenant The Sign and the Seal
comes to mind.
Also I have met two Gypsies independant of each other who told me it is
part of their tradition that they beleive they are one of the lost ten
tribes. I can*t remeber which one. Gypsies are also certainly known for
their magical ways. And they have certainly had their fair share of
persecution.
Here is the URL for Lance Owen*s website with articles on Joseph the
Hermetic Prophet, Joseph and Kabbalah and Joseph the Gnostic. Lance
Owens is a physician from Salt Lake and Mormon who became a Gnostic
priest... as well as one of the best researchers (although this field is
fast growing) into these aspects of Joseph*s life. I have 3 tapes from
Sunstone Symposium of him speaking on the 3 topics named above. Copies
can be ordered from Sunstone or borrowed from me.
[It's funny how many Mormons I have known in Utah who for them the next
logical step of their religion was move on to the core traditions that
spawned Mormonism. To try and get to the *root* of what all of this
was about. That*s why Ken picked the name *Radical Mormon* for the new
breed of Mormon that seems to be emerging out of this strange blend of
Mormon fundamentalism and the Occult. He says the word Radical means *to
get to the root*. Which is what I see we have been trying to do.
Salt Lake is home to one of the largest Wiccan communities anywhere. Now
MOST of those people do not make the connection or integrate these other
esoteric traditions with their Mormon heritage ...but there are those
who do.... Lance Owens, Jim Kirkwood, everyone on the Mutant RM list and
so many others come to mind... It just seems like the natural extension
of things to me.
For instance a well known talk show host at KTalk in SLC, Jim Kirkwood,
moved on from the LDS church, converted to Judaism, became a Rabbi and
now teaches Kabbalah in Salt Lake. Salt Lake is also home to the
internationally known Ama Lux Books, distributor of the most classic
works in Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Alchemy etc. I have heard rumors for
years about the relatively large number of Mormon Magicians along the
Wasatch front as well as alchemists with labs in garages and warehouses
there.]
There is a search engine on Lance*s site. Just type in the words *Joseph
Smith* and it will pull up about 3 articles on the above named topics,
including the extensive one from Dialogue. This is what it will pull up
-
Joseph Smith: America's Hermetic Prophet by Lance S. Owens. This article
appeared in Gnosis: A Journal of Western Inner Traditions, Spring 1995
Those readers seeking a more in depth study of the material covered in
this short article should also read Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The
Occult Connection by Lance S. Owens -- published in Dialogue: A Journal
of Mormon Thought, Fall 1994, and winner of the Mormon History
Association's prestigious award for "Best Work in Mormon History".
The search engine is under "The Gnosis Archive Index"
http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/
Here is a list of some more of the books we have been discussing on the
lists:
The Refiners Fire: The making of Mormon Cosmology 1644-1844 by John L.
Brooke. This book won 3 International Awards: The Bancroft Prize in
American History, the Book Prize from the Society of Historians of the
Early American Republic and the New England Historical Association*s
Annual Book Award.
This book discusses the Hermetic influences upon Joseph Smith and upon
the theology of the LDS church.
It seems more and more people (doesn*t this appear to be more than a
coincidence?) are starting to see the connections between these occult
philosophies and things Joseph was involved with, as well as LDS
theology, but they are less certain about the cause and effect
relationship.
Brooke asks: "Are these relationships spanning centuries simply
analogous, revealing but essentially unconnected?*. He then he goes on
to list the reigning theories and explanations, all of which I am
certain have validity to them. I can't list them all here, you will have
to read the book. I think these intellectual explanations offer a
partial answer but not the full answer.
I will be a little more esoteric and chip in my theory here. If you
combine it with the others it is probably as accurate as you are going
to get.
This is simply that when the Lord says that he "pours out his spirit"
upon all flesh, usually to prepare them for something, he works by way
of things like the collective unconscious, morphogenetic fields (you
know Rupert Sheldrake as well as the 'Hundredth Monkey' syndrome) and
things like MEMES. He pours out these thoughtforms over a long enough
period of time and they become more and more embedded in our
consciousness. He knows that it takes awhile - 7 generations perhaps? I
am a seventh generation Mormon and so are some of the other people who
are just starting to figure out the connections - so he starts early,
say 150 years, before he knows that any major fruit will be born. This
also explains why so many people were involved with such similar things
as Joseph around the same time. A lot of what was going on was
completely independant of each other.
So read the book and keep the supernatural explanations in mind and
combine them with the intellectual ones.
Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn. I believe
this has received an award or recognition of some kind as well.
Here is a book review of the revised updated copy :
http://www.california.com/~rpcman/ematmwv.htm
*From the publisher:
In this ground-breaking book, D. Michael Quinn masterfully reconstructs
an earlier age, finding ample evidence for folk magic in
nineteenth-century New England, as he does in Mormon founder Joseph
Smith's upbringing. Quinn discovers that Smith's world was inhabited by
supernatural creatures whose existence could be both symbolic and real.
He explains that the Smith family's treasure digging was not unusual for
the times and is vital to understanding how early Mormons interpreted
developments in their history in ways that differ from modern
perceptions. Quinn's impressive research provides a much-needed
background for the environment that produced Mormonism.
This thoroughly researched examination into occult traditions
surrounding Smith, his family, and other founding Mormons cannot be
understated. Among the practices no longer a part of Mormonism are the
use of divining rods for revelation, astrology to determine the best
times to conceive children and plant crops, the study of skull contours
to understand personality traits, magic formula utilized to discover
lost property, and the wearing of protective talismans. Ninety-four
photographs and illustrations accompany the text.
---------------------------------------------------
This is an ingenious and erudite book which carries us further into the
world of magic than any previous work on Mormonism. From now on, anyone
dealing with magic in relationship to Mormonism will have to start with
Quinn's study. -- Richard L. Bushman
Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View is nothing less
than a scholarly tour de force. It is a highly informative and quite
remarkable exercise in detailed research. The involvement of Joseph
Smith and his family and many associates in occult beliefs and magical
practices is not news. In his own time Smith was dogged with claims of
treasure digging, reliance on peep stones, and related occult matters,
but much of the evidence for the more blatant accusations came from
sources that the LDS church managed quite successfully over the years to
debunk on the ground that enemies of the church are not to be believed,
and any writer or witness who criticized Joseph Smith was an enemy. In
recent years historians both in and out of the church have chipped away
at this shield until now it is impossible to deny the obvious.
The strength of Quinn's study, it seems to me, is threefold: (1) It
exhibits an impressive knowledge of folk magic and its practice in
nineteenth-century America; (2) it lays before the reader an astounding
array of detailed events and practices, even to the point of overkill;
and (3) it clearly establishes, through the corroboration of divergent
sources, that in this matter the traditional historians of the church
have to some degree either been uninformed or have engaged in a
conscious cover-up to protect the Mormon image. I suspect that it has
been both of these.
Most churches are involved in some measure of magical belief and
practice, and the Mormon church even today is no exception. Consider the
use of sacred words--especially names--exorcisms, or the presumed power
of set rituals. But such things are so commonplace and habitual that
they are usually not seen as magical. Most Mormons have managed to live
comfortably with the claims of a magical translation of the Book of
Mormon by regarding it as revelation or inspiration, or something like
that; and seer stones, which in Quinn's account were not uncommon among
early church members, have been kept at a bare minimum by the official
histories. The prophet's treasure digging, which has been difficult to
ignore, has been regarded as a forgivable youthful aberration. According
to Quinn, magic largely disappeared from Mormonism by the end of the
century, but most Mormons are aware that some of it is still around.
After all, it adds a little spice to religion.
But Quinn exposes far more in the magic line than most well-informed
Mormons have ever suspected--witness the very titles of some of his
chapters: Divining Rods, Treasure Digging, and Seer Stones; Ritual
Magic, Astrology, and Talismans; Magic Parchments and Occult Mentors. No
doubt the book holds no surprises for those who are well acquainted with
recent research on Mormon origins, considering the present crop of
excellent historians of the church, but I confess that I was both
surprised and shocked by Quinn's disclosure of the extent of belief in
astrology of early church leaders--that Joseph Smith, for instance, even
timed some of his numerous marriages by astrological charts.
Like most studies, Quinn's work has its weaknesses: a penchant for
generalization, for instance, that sometimes overlooks differences in
place and time, excessive attention at times to matters more or less
irrelevant to the case of Mormonism, and a failure to exploit fully the
implications of important instances of magic with which he is concerned.
And there is the problem of treating such things as astrology and
phrenology as if they were more or less similar in nature to
manipulative magic.
Finally, there is one gnawing problem that I have in reading the book.
Just where does Quinn himself stand with reference to magic in relation
to the belief claims of Mormonism? He is not obligated to discuss his
own views, but in the introduction he makes it clear that the magical
beliefs and practices of Joseph Smith and his family and associates in
no way affect his faith in the truth of Mormonism. He states
unequivocally, "I believe in Gods, angels, spirits, and devils, and that
they have communicated with humankind" (xx). Perhaps the secret of
Quinn's sturdy faith lies in his position that while magic and religion
are not "identical entities," they are not "polar opposites" (xvi). He
is certainly correct that religion has usually, if not always, been
infected with what today we regard as magic and superstition. But, at
least on the surface, he seems to be remarkably generous in his attitude
toward such things, almost as if, after all, they are really God's way
of dealing with the masses, or even with their prophets. They are man's
way of dealing with God, but surely not God's way of dealing with man.
-- Sterling McMurrin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do have to say I tend to disagree with the last sentence of that
review but it is an interesting point.
Here is the URL for Joseph Smith: Halcyon. As soon as anyone reads this
article please let me know what you thought of it! Joseph as Solar Hero!
Venus in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake Temple!
http://www.homestar.net/osiris/halcyon.html
Joseph Smith fits 3 classic mythological patterns: that of the great
mystical mythologist Joseph Campbell's "Hero", also the Halcyon
archetype as put forth by Robert Graves, as well as that of the Masonic
figure Hiram Abiff (or so someone compared the two on RM-l
one time).
There is also a lot of material coming out on Jewish Shamanism now which
includes looking at some of the old prophets as fitting the shamanic
characteristics. I have an article on Jewish Shamanism for anyone who is
interested. Shamanism and the Jewish Tradition by Rabbi Ronasson Gershom
from the book Shamanism, edited by Shirley Nicholson. It opens with one
of my favorite lines of all time, which is the way the anthropologist in
me has cross-culturally looked at the world my whole life: *If I had
been born an Indian I would have become a medicine man. What should I do
as a Jew?*.
The American Religion by Harold Bloom.
One of the best books I ever read on Joseph Smith, and one of my
favorite books of all time. The only word to describe this book is truly
DELIGHTFUL! Bloom ecstatically paints a colorful picture of Joseph's
charisma - sexual and otherwise...
Quoting both Owens and Bloom:
"Two years ago, Harold Bloom's boldly original work, The American
Religion, offered introduction to this unknown Prophet. The intrinsic
and true American religion, pronounces Bloom in his widely reviewed
book, is a kind of Gnosticism--alone a surprising enough declaration.
But in evidence of this American Gnosis and as first hero of his story,
Bloom gives us Joseph Smith. Of the man himself, he judges:
'Other Americans have been religion makers....but none of them has the
imaginative vitality of Joseph Smith's revelation, a judgment one makes
on the authority of a lifetime spent in apprehending the visions of
great poets and original speculators.... So self-created was he
that he transcends Emerson and Whitman in my imaginative response, and
takes his place with the great figures of our fiction."1 '
'And of his religious creation, The God of Joseph Smith is a daring
revival of the God of some of the Kabbalists and Gnostics, prophetic
sages who, like Smith himself, asserted that they had returned to the
true religion....Mormonism is a purely American Gnosis, for which Joseph
Smith was and is a far more crucial figure than Jesus could be. Smith is
not just 'a' prophet, another prophet, but he is the essential prophet
of these latter days, leading into the end time, whenever it comes.2 '
[ending Bloom]
Joseph Smith a modern Gnostic prophet? Certainly nowhere within the vast
domains of America religion did this proclamation cause more
consternation or amazement than within its Mormon provinces and
borderlands. But Bloom (a self-pronounced "Jewish Gnostic") is no casual
observer; his knowledge of Gnosis and Kabbalah is tempered by vast
experience critiquing the creative matrix of its vision. His thesis
deserves--and is receiving--attention. Joseph Smith is taking on a new
visage, and words like "gnostic", "kabbalistic" and "hermetic" have
suddenly gained a quite prominent place in the vocabulary employed by
those trying to understand him."
[end Owens]
----------------------------------
Other books we have mentioned are:
Jesus the Magician by Morton Smith (supposed to be excellent and *hair
raisingly scholarly* according to one of the list members.)
Another book by Morton Smith (listed in Bloodline of the Holy Grail) is
The Secret Gospel.
Sarah the Priestess by Savina J. Teubal - New archeological research
shows Abraham's wife as High Priestess to Inanna in Egypt. The ancient
Matriarchs were priesthood holders with great authority and power.
Abraham received his preisthood blessings THROUGH Sarah from what some
of the newest research seems to be showing. The last vestiges of those
ancient matrilineal and matrilocal traditions seems to be the fact that
to this day in some circles one is not considered Jewish unless their
MOTHER is Jewish. Turns the more recent, purely patriarchal traditions
on their head.
The Hebrew Goddess by the reknowned mythologist Robert Graves. One of
the great classics. the Mother was worshipped along with the Father
until around the Law of Moses.
The White Goddess by Robert Graves - I have heard this has info on the
Hebrew Goddess as well. Was also a a major source for the article
"Joseph Smith: Halcyon".
Temple Book by Anonymous (reportedly Max Skousen) - Analyzes the LDS (
temple ceremony the way it was meant to be taken IMHO, as a map of the
psyche. The paper is very Gnostic and very Jungian sounding to me. My
take on the topic is that all mystery traditions from the Egyptian to
the indigenous, shamanistic traditions are that they are the best
systems of psychology ever designed.
Tim Rathbone*s papers delivered at Sunstone on Joseph Smith and the
Hero*s Journey (copies in my possession).
There was also an article in Dialouge and another address at Sunstone I
have seen on the same topic by other authors.
Here are some of Tim's favorite books and classic to what we are
discussing here:
Campbell, Joseph. The Hero With a Thousand Faces. Bollingen Series:
Princeton University Press, 1968 Second Edition.
Eliade, Mircea. The Sacred and the Profane. Harvest, Harcort Brace &
World, Inc. 1959.
Thiessen, Gerd. The Miracle Stories of the Early Christian Tradition.
Translated by Francis McDonagh, edited by John Riches, Fortress Press,
Philadelphia, 1983.
Thomas, Keith. Religion and the Decline of Magic. Charles Scribner's
Sons, New York, 1971.
Walsch, Roger N.. The Spirit of Shamanism. Jeremy P. Tarcher Inc. LA CA
1990.
Tim also recommended this book:
*Beth, I was in a rush and forget to finish the letter.. A great book to
read if you can brand new.. is One Jesus Many Christ's by Gregory J.
Riley Harper 1997.. November.. I am taking a New Testament class at the
local college and this is one of the books we will read.... Riley takes
the Hero's journey and applies it to the Jesus story along with Hero
Myth's... like Hercules and Thesus and the Baccians.. We are also
reading the Bible the NRSV version the new revised standard version and
the text is The New Testament by Bart D. Ehrman.. very interesting and
supplemental readings....*
continuing:
Women and Authority: Reemerging Mormon Feminism edited by Maxine Hanks.
Should be basic LDS reading. Essay format. Contains essays by the
modern LDS women pioneers Carol Lynn Pearson (a dear friend), Margaret
Toscano and more.
The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler. More on the history of the
Goddess, including the Hebrew Goddess. This classic in Women*s Studies
should be everyone's companion to the Bible. Riane also gave Carol Lynn
(see below) an excellent review of her play Mother Wove the Morning, as
did many other leading figures in the women's spirituality movement such
as Jean Shinoda Bolen.
World famous poet and playwright, also well known for producing music,
plays, poetry and movies in the LDS church UNTIL she came out with her
nationally bestselling biography and her play
about God the Mother, Carol Lynn Pearson is a resource in and of
herself. Carol Lynn has often been known to speak at Sunstone and her
play Mother Wove the Morning is now on video tape. "16 women throughout
history search for God the Mother and invite her back into the human
family." call 510-906-8835 for a copy.
Some classic pagan books which help shed light on the things listed here
and started some of us on this Mutated path!
Spiral Dance by Starhawk
Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler
It has been noted that both of these books were released at the same
time in 1979 through some big cosmic synchronicity, one on the East
Coast and one on the West Coast. Considered the best two introductory
books on the modern pagan movement.
The Holy Book of Women's Mysteries by Z. Budapest.
....................................................................
I have no idea if these are the ravings of a Christian fundamentalist or
not but I think the connections between these topics (if approached with
the right attitude) are fascinating nontheless:
::: Enochian Martians? :::
Author of the intriguing work _Symbolic Language_ (a study of various
writings purported to be of "space alien" origin), Dr. Mario Pazzaglini,
M.D., Ph.D. was interviewed last night by www.disinfo.com's Richard
Metzger (metzger@bway.net). Dr. Pazzaglini, it should be noted,
received his Ph.D. in clinical psychology and neurophysiology with a
focus on sensory physiology and has nursed a keen interest in UFOs and
Alien Language for some 30 years now.
Topics discussed during the interview:
o Alien writing
o The origins of Mormonism
o The Enochian language magickal system
o Dee, Kelley, Mathers, Crowley, Parsons, Hubbard, Adamski
o The BABALON working
o UFOlogy (in a broad historical context)
o Channeling and other forms of Spirit communications
o Eschatology and the Apocalypse
o Psychedelic drugs
o John Lilly & Sensory deprivation
The Real Audio interview may be found at the following URL:
http://pseudo.com/netcast/shows/infinity/archives/infinityJan18_1998_0851pm.ram
[Note: if you experience any difficulty connecting, simply go to
pseudo.com then select the show "Infinity Factory" and from the archive
section request the 01/18/98 show with Dr. Pazzaglini.]
....................................................................
Jewishness of the Book of Mormon website:
http://deathstar.rutgers.edu/people/kurtn/rabbiyosef/rabbiyosef.html
Ken and his buddies think they have found the Endowment in such ancient
texts as the Midrash...
*****************************************************
* The Jews do understand the things of the prophets,*
* and there is none other people that understand the*
* things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto *
* them, save it be that they are taught after the *
* manner of the things of the Jews. (2Ne. 25:5b) *
*****************************************************
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