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Subject: Re: Min the Mormon God Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:32:14 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Kerry Shirts , richh@insurquote.com, richard@cut.net, abmiller@novell.com, NCT , Stephen Escobedo , Curtis Porritt , Gail Porritt , Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, onandagus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , rpcman , Ken Shaw , Kathleen McGuire , comdb@yahoo.com, proclus@mac.com, "Malcolm J. Vickery" , Enoch Shemna , ArtdeHoyos , moonlightmojo@my-dejanews.com, Dagny Taggart , "R.L. Measures" , "Guy R. Briggs" ___Mark "Mr. Spambot" Hines___ Concerning the previously posted article below, I'm still waiting to see the very best reply from a Mormon apologist. Why is it acceptable to represent God with Min [in Facsimile 2]? How can Mormons represent God with Min, a pagan god who has an erect penis? ___Rich___ piece o' cake, Mark: Claim that the penis sort of looks like God's arm. ---- Actually, considering what we know of Min, I can understand why God would be represented by such. Min has strong Canaanite connections. The similarities between the Egyptian Min (with his consort Isis), the Babylonian Nimrod (supposedly married his mother), Adonis (with his consort Astarte), the Canaanite Ba'al (with his consort Asherah), and YHWH (with HIS consort Asherah) are rather remarkable. Each of these stories (and numerous others like them throughout the ancient near east) share a certain tradition of how the FATHER becomes the SON. Christianity precisely follows this same pattern (well... some effort is made to tidy it up a bit). The pattern is one in which the FATHER becomes the SON via his OWN WIFE. Let me repeat that: He BEGETS HIMSELF, and is BORN through his CONSORT, who then becomes not only his WIFE, but also his MOTHER. Consider carefully: MARY is both the WIFE of God and the MOTHER of God. How FASCINATING. Who'da thought it. (Just a side-point: another funny thing about these traditions is how the god gets torn into bits, and is either ingested, or resurrected, or both). This is close to a Masonic secret. It is associated with the HONEY BEE, which has invariably been a symbol of it in Babylon, Egypt, Syria, Israel and elsewhere. Another essential part of this secret is discussed in 1 Kings 7:13-14 and 17:20-23 and in the NT and elsewhere. So, before you honk too loudly about Min the BULL of his MOTHER, you might wish to reflect seriously on the conception and birth and death and resurrection of a certain widow's son named JESUS. Of course, one of the BEST modern-day variations of this story is the Mormon ADAM-GOD tradition... but that's a telling for another day. Oh, and as for the "pose" (you know, "is it a weenie, is it an arm") -- I have a copy of Edelman's "The Triumph of Elohim" which has a very interesting picture of a Persian-period coin minted in Yehud some time between 400 and 300 BC. I say interesting, because it has a picture of YAHWEH on the obverse, seated squarely on winged wheel, bearing a bird in the cupped hand of His outstretched left arm. However, rather than His right hand being raised to the square, it appears to be beneath --and supporting-- His left elbow. This not only reminded me of Min (minus the willy, of course), but it most definately reminded me of the Temple -- which is the point several posters have made here repeatedly. It's a BIG MYSTIC CONSPIRACY, folks! If you are a JEW or a BUDDHIST or a CHRISTIAN or a MORMON -- it seems that there is someone standing behind the curtain telling a similar story. Cheers, Joe "I musta been drinking too much WINE" Swick The grape that can with logic absolute The two-and-seventy sects confute; The subtle alchemist that in a trice Life's leaden metal into gold transmute -- Rubaiyat Subject: Re: Min the Mormon God Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:05:32 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 Thanx for posting this to the mutant list, Joe. As you know, I love this stuff, and lap it up everytime. Please feel free to post any follow up that you feel is appropriate. I'm not on ARM, and I know that is true of several others as well. Regards, proclus Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > ___Mark "Mr. Spambot" Hines___ > Concerning the previously posted article below, I'm still waiting to see > the very best reply from a Mormon apologist. Why is it acceptable to > represent God with Min [in Facsimile 2]? How can Mormons represent > God with Min, a pagan god who has an erect penis? > > ___Rich___ > piece o' cake, Mark: Claim that the penis sort of looks like God's arm. > ---- > > Actually, considering what we know of Min, I can understand why God would be > represented by such. Min has strong Canaanite connections. The > similarities between the Egyptian Min (with his consort Isis), the > Babylonian Nimrod (supposedly married his mother), Adonis (with his consort > Astarte), the Canaanite Ba'al (with his consort Asherah), and YHWH (with HIS > consort Asherah) are rather remarkable. > > Each of these stories (and numerous others like them throughout the ancient > near east) share a certain tradition of how the FATHER becomes the SON. > Christianity precisely follows this same pattern (well... some effort is > made to tidy it up a bit). The pattern is one in which the FATHER becomes > the SON via his OWN WIFE. > > Let me repeat that: He BEGETS HIMSELF, and is BORN through his CONSORT, who > then becomes not only his WIFE, but also his MOTHER. > > Consider carefully: MARY is both the WIFE of God and the MOTHER of God. How > FASCINATING. Who'da thought it. > > (Just a side-point: another funny thing about these traditions is how the > god gets torn into bits, and is either ingested, or resurrected, or both). > > This is close to a Masonic secret. It is associated with the HONEY BEE, > which has invariably been a symbol of it in Babylon, Egypt, Syria, Israel > and elsewhere. Another essential part of this secret is discussed in 1 Kings > 7:13-14 and 17:20-23 and in the NT and elsewhere. > > So, before you honk too loudly about Min the BULL of his MOTHER, you might > wish to reflect seriously on the conception and birth and death and > resurrection of a certain widow's son named JESUS. > > Of course, one of the BEST modern-day variations of this story is the Mormon > ADAM-GOD tradition... but that's a telling for another day. > > Oh, and as for the "pose" (you know, "is it a weenie, is it an arm") -- I > have a copy of Edelman's "The Triumph of Elohim" which has a very > interesting picture of a Persian-period coin minted in Yehud some time > between 400 and 300 BC. I say interesting, because it has a picture of > YAHWEH on the obverse, seated squarely on winged wheel, bearing a bird in > the cupped hand of His outstretched left arm. However, rather than His right > hand being raised to the square, it appears to be beneath --and supporting-- > His left elbow. > > This not only reminded me of Min (minus the willy, of course), but it most > definately reminded me of the Temple -- which is the point several posters > have made here repeatedly. > > It's a BIG MYSTIC CONSPIRACY, folks! If you are a JEW or a BUDDHIST or a > CHRISTIAN or a MORMON -- it seems that there is someone standing behind the > curtain telling a similar story. > > Cheers, > Joe "I musta been drinking too much WINE" Swick > > The grape that can with logic absolute > The two-and-seventy sects confute; > The subtle alchemist that in a trice > Life's leaden metal into gold transmute -- Rubaiyat -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: The God Archaeologically Speaking Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 12:08:55 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna , 'proclus' I dunno if you guys are ready for this or even wanting it, but here is my FAIR paper for our conference in three weeks. Look it over if you'd like and tell me how far out in limbo I really am......GRIN! Kerry A. Shirts Eternal Family double spaced.doc Name: Eternal Family double spaced.doc Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword) Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: Min the Mormon God Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 12:16:53 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna , 'proclus' Thanx for posting this to the mutant list, Joe. As you know, I love this stuff, and lap it up everytime. Please feel free to post any follow up that you feel is appropriate. I'm not on ARM, and I know that is true of several others as well. Regards, proclus Kerry: HERE! HERE! See more below Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > Actually, considering what we know of Min, I can understand why God would be > represented by such. Min has strong Canaanite connections. The > similarities between the Egyptian Min (with his consort Isis), the > Babylonian Nimrod (supposedly married his mother), Adonis (with his consort > Astarte), the Canaanite Ba'al (with his consort Asherah), and YHWH (with HIS > consort Asherah) are rather remarkable. Kerry: Yes! I gave you all my FAIR paper which deals PRECISELY with this with some rather extensive (yes over 500 footnotes and sources) dealing with this... > (Just a side-point: another funny thing about these traditions is how the > god gets torn into bits, and is either ingested, or resurrected, or both). > > This is close to a Masonic secret. It is associated with the HONEY BEE, > which has invariably been a symbol of it in Babylon, Egypt, Syria, Israel > and elsewhere. Another essential part of this secret is discussed in 1 Kings > 7:13-14 and 17:20-23 and in the NT and elsewhere. Kerry: Incredible! This tie in I also have discussed a little bit and I have another researcher discussing this honey bee with Neith the Egyptian Goddess for our FAIR newsletter "Apologia" next month. This is interesting! I had no idea the Masons also had this. I may have to seriously become one now...... (snip the rest of this fascinating stuff for now - THANKS Joe!) Kerry A. Shirts Subject: Deseret the HONEY BEE Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 12:18:51 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna , 'proclus' To tie in with Joe's interesting stuff on the Bee, here is an anrticle I wrote some time ago. I hope this all comes in. To Bee, or not to Bee: History in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price Noting The Deseret Connection C. Wilfred Griggs has noted that our acceptance of the BofM is a spiritual, not an academic, matter. (in Susan Easton Black, ed., "Expressions of Faith:Testimonies of LDS Scholars", Deseret Book, 1996, p. 201). This granted, it is important to also realize that our purposes of inquiring into historicity with the BofM is not to subject revelation to the constraints of reason or scholarship, but rather to use the techniques of scholarship as a limited means to a spiritual end. (John Welch in "Warfare in the Book of Mormon", Deseret Book, 1990, p. 17). There is a great need of blending both our faith and our knowledge. Of blending a healthy skepticism and doubt with a belief and desire to learn more. Balance is sought after, even though it is not always acquired and kept. Noel B. Reynolds has perhaps said it best: "...higher levels of religiousity among Latter Day S aints - as measured by devotion to private prayer, scripture study, tithe paying, church attendance, and other forms of religious observance - are directly correlated with higher levels of education. It may be an anomaly, but it is true of the Latter Day Saint community that the more educated a person is, the more likely he or she is to be fully observant and faithful... Mormonism is a religion of both the spirit and the intellect." (in Black, "Expressions of Faith", p. x) That all said, it is a most amazing thing that we have in our scriptures one of the most unusual yet interesting historical aspects ever mentioned, learned of, or discussed, that of Deseret, the Honey Bee, the Jaredite interpretation (Ether 2:3). This Deseret also enjoyed a serious ritual importance and was quite prominant in the Egyptian Civilization, who likewise associated this Deseret with the *honeybee*. Now the so-called authors of the Second Civilization, seems to have entered Egypt from the northeast as part of a great expansion of the peoples outward that sent the makers of the classical Baby- lonian civilization into Mesoptamia. So, we have the founders of the two parent civilizations of antiquity entering their new homelands approximately at the same time from some common center. The Egyptian pioneers carried with them a fully developed cult and symbolism from their Asiatic homeland. (Hugh Nibley - "Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites", Bookcraft, 1952, p. 184). The chief cult object they had with them was the bee. In fact, the land that they first settled in Egypt was forever after known as "the land of the bee", and the designated hieroglyph was a picture of the bee. And every king of Egypt in his capacity as king of Upper and Lower Egypt bore the title "he who belongs to the sedge and the bee." Sir Alan Gardiner doesn't know how or where the connection with the bee comes in, but he acknowledges that it is certainly there. the title is "n-sw-bit", and one can readily see the bee in the hieroglyphic title that Gardiner uses here. (Alan Gardiner, "Egyptian Grammar", 3rd ed., 1994, p. 73). Now the sound of the bee picture has been discussed for years, with no clear indications as to what it might be. In fact, the Egyptologist Sethe even says that the Egyptians themselves had forgotten the original word, and Grapow designates the bee title of honor as "unreadable". (Nibley - "World of the Jaredites", p. 185). But how could such a popular and very important yet quite common word be forgotten? Actually, it happens all the time in the history of cult and ritual, namely, the avoidance or even the prohibiting of the sacred word! The bee sign was not always written down, but in its place the picture of the Red Crown, the majesty of Lower Egypt was sometimes substituted for superstitious reasons. While we are lacking the name of the Bee symbol, we do know what the Red Crown was called. It is *dsrt*. When the crown appears in the place of the bee, it is sometimes called "bit bee". (Nibley, p. 185). "Bit bee" = "bi'ty" as we shall see in the hieroglyphic inscriptions below. The crown has an antennae on it, such as in Margaret Bunson's "Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt", Facts on File, Oxford, 1991, p. 59. She calls it "deshret". In E.A. Wallis Budge's "Hieroglyphic Vocabulary to the Book of the Dead", we find that he also calls this crown "Deshret", the Red Crown, i.e., the Crown of Lower Egypt, p. 448. W.V. Davies in his text "Reading the Past: Egyptian Hieroglyphics", Univ. of California Press, 1987, p. 44f, notes that the most important name for the king in Egypt is "nswt-bi'ty, King of Upper and Lower Egypt". In the hieroglyph, you can see the bee. Also in the hieroglyphic inscription from a stela mentioning year nineteen of King Nubkaure (Ammenemes II). Twelfth Dynasty: "h 3t-sp 19 hr hm n ntr nswt-bi'ty Nbw-k3w-r'" The bi'ty is the bee in the hieroglyph, which Davies pictures at the top of the page. So while the crown can be the equivilant to the bee (usually having the antennae on it), the bee is never called "dsrt". Well this suggests particular avoidance, especially since "dsrt" also means "red", a word peculiarly applicable to bees. Well this correlates very well with the Jews refusing to give us the proper Hebrew name of God YHWH. It is not to even be pronounced, and in fact Adonai is the substitute for this name. Now interestingly, the bee symbol spread out from its homeland into prominant places in the royal mysteries of the Hittites, and turning up in the Kalevala, and even into the Easter rites of other nations. The bee in all of these is the agent through which the dead hero or king is resurrected from the dead. Interestingly, the original "deseret" people, the founders of the Second Civilization, the intellectuals of On (Heliopolis) claimed that their king, and he alone, possessed the secret of resurrection. In fact, that was the cornerstone of their religion, it being nothing less than the king's secret, the power over death. So to summarize: 1. The Jaredites in their wanderings took with them the honeybee which they called in their language, "Deseret", as well as hives of bees. 2. The founders of the Second Civilization of Egypt had the bee as the symbol of their land, their king, and their empire, to all of which they applied the designation "deseret", or something very close to it. 3. Though they never called the bee itself "dsrt", the sign of which is often "for superstitious reasons" written in its place is so designated. 4. The bee sign was always regarded by the Egyptians as very sacred: As a determinative, according to Sethe, it is significant to note that it is always placed *before* any of the others. As is well known, such priority is the prerogative of the holiest objects only in the writing of hieroglyphic. Its extreme sacredness and its role in top-secret ritual imply, nay, all but demand, that suppression of its true name in the reading of texts. Both the honeybee and "dsrt" seem quite at home in the twilight world of prehistory. (Nibley, "World of the Jaredites", pp. 188f). And what do we find in the Pearl of Great Price? Astoundingly, more of the same! In the Book of Abraham, we are told that a woman found Egypt: "The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the duaghter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden. When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land. Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharoah, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal. Sethe in his great work "Urgeschichte" has treated this very subject at length. He contends that the key to the whole affair is the bee and the red "Dsrt" Crown: The bee, he believes, is the sign of the LADY Neith, identified with Hathor, called "the Ruling Lady of the Universe," which Sethe says this figure must go back to the prehistoric rule of women in Egypt. But this is best had for part 2. The connections come thick, hard and at lightning speed! PART 2 We saw in part 1 that the bee, the red "Dsrt" (Deseret) Crown of Lower Egypt and the sacredness and tie in with resurrection were all part of the story, not only from the BofM Jaredite view, but the Ancient Second Civilization of Egypt as well. We also began to see the connection with the woman who founded the government of Egypt after she had found the country under water. We continue from there: In the "Journal of Egyptian Archaeology", Vol. 9, Plate XX, Wainwright has shown a pot which has the Red Crown (Dsrt Crown) clearly depicted which is from Prehistoric Nakada thus showing this to be one of the oldest known symbols of royalty. It is the crown of the Lady Neith and is often substituted for the sign of the bee. This indicates that the great shrine at Koptos, right across the river from Nakada, which is only a cemetary, may have been the original captial of the Lady. And most interesting for us, and especially the Facsimile 2, the Hypocephalus, of all things (!), this was the shrine of Min, the oldest God of Egypt, who later became Ammon (good BofM name!), and whose symbol was an arrow, as was Neith's. Neith was the prehistoric lady of Koptos. The bee comes in with the kings who actually bore the title of "the bee", but only, according to Sethe, AFTER they had usurped the authority of the Lady Neith. (the woman who discovered Egypt under water according to Joseph Smith's BofA! 1:23) In fact, Neith's name is actually the title "N.t", the SAME name as given to the prehistoric red crown, though it is usually called the Dsrt Crown. Actually the title "Queen-Bee" was originally given to the Matriarchal lines of rule until that was usurped by the lady's sons. Or in the BofA: "Now Pharoah being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharoahs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham [the son of Egyptus - the woman, vs. 25]..." (Abr. 1:27). Note here there is nothing racist about it at all! The rule in Egypt was historically the Matriarchal rule, from which line the SON of Egyptus, the DAUGHTER of Ham, came through. The Fathers that Abraham is so obssessed with in the first 5 verses was the Patriarchal Priesthood. This was the priesthood that Pharoah was prevented from holding due to his authority coming through the Matriarchal lines. The BofA is exactly correct in depicting the entire HISTORICAL situation, based on current historical, philological, and archaeological discoveries in the last 50 years, long after Joseph Smith was dead. But I digress..... However, it is quite possible that the bee symbol came from the invading migrants who united it with the Red Crown and other props of the Lady of Koptos. Interestingly, bee in Egyptian is a feminine noun, which cannot suit a king as its original possessor. The sedge-and-bee titles given to the Pharoahs does not designate them as being actually bees but rather as "belonging to the bee" or "descended from the bee". Geb, and Osiris were both guilty of usurping the bee-crown of the Lady, just as they usurped her throne. So what do we have? Four things definitely go together at the beginning of Egypt's history. 1. The Bee 2. The Dsrt Crown 3. The derivation of Pharoah's authority from a woman 4. The identification of that woman with the lady of Koptos from which or whom Egypt got its name (NOTE: Every single item is also found in Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham, Ch. 1) Egypt does not get its name from "Kmt" - "Black" as is traditionally maintained. The name comes from Koptos which is the oldest shrine and capital of Egypt. Many ancient cities are named after persons - hundreds of them in fact - but only when that person is the founder of the city. And it is basically agreed that the great invasions of Egypt in prehistoric times came by way of the Wadi Hammamat. From there, the first place one would settle down would be Koptos, the very place where the Wadi Hammamat opens on the Nile Valley. (keep in mind Abr. 1:23-25). (H. Nibley "There Were Jaredites", in the "Improvement Era", April 1956, p. 244f). So lets get back to Min. Min was from prehistoric times the bee keeper. He even lived in a beehive house in Koptos. Of course, by now we are familiar with the principle parts here, the bee, the crown, and the honey incidentally, whose words are all read the same way, whether as n.t, bi.t or khb.t, all had the feminine endings, with the crown itself personified as the goddess, and at the same time identical with the bee. The bee, we are told, is the inspiration and sponsor of the great migration. As a creature of the preexistent or preDiluvian world, and all but the sole survivor of the great catastrophes that desolated the earth anciently, the bee is the first to arrive on the scene and get things going again in the new world. In the first of all migrations we are told, Adam and Eve were accompanied and guided by the bees as they moved from the Garden of Eden and into the lone and dreary world. The bees brought with them the primordial creative divine power; their honey, made by the bees of paradise, which is the food of heaven. The Hittite version of the story has the bees helping guide Adam and Eve because they had lived in the Old world before it was destroyed and knew their whereabouts. Most interesting, the traditions of the Old World are also matched by those in the New World, where the Mayan book the Chilam Balam, begins with the settling of the land by bee swarms of the four directions, each of a different color. The word for the bee is feminine incidentally with a feminine prefix!We are also told that the Bacabs, who hail from the four directions, (this number four being a most important number to the Egyptians as well Cf. Fac. #1, figs. 5,6,7,8 with Fac. #2, fig. 6) who were representatives of the Gods. They were beekeepers as well and their name connects to bees of honey. (H. Nibley - "Abraham in Egypt", Deseret, 1981, p. 231). BEES AND THE RESURRECTION: The bees offer the most tempting and invigorating food from putrefying corpses, which was more than just a symbol in the mysteries. It was an actual process of resurrection! The bee "born from the ox" in sacred caves sets the scene fro the mysteries. Interestingly in an inscription from the Temple of Denderah, near Coptos (note this again!), we read "Osiris emulates the bee in the Temple, giving instructions for knowing the hsp (sacred garden) of the Bee in the Other World, in the House of Snhty", this last being written with the bee hieroglyph. The bee born from the skin of the animal is the sign of the resurrection. Everywhere the Bee is the preserver and restorer of life. Nut appears as the Bee, and in a Pyramid Text, the king, the lady and the bee are fused into one. On first awakening after he is resurrected, the King cries out "Bees!" They simply swarmed the place! And these themes invaded the Christian church as well. They also became the dominant Jewish symbol. The original shrine of the mysteries at Delphi was constructed og beeswax by those devoted insects. St. Jerome was puzzled and disturbed by the way bees invaded the Easter Service of the Church. He commented in 384 A.D. that Nothing is harder to explain than why at the Easter service Christians are regaled by bee stories. They came from the monks in the Egyptian desert to be sure, who singing their hymns all the day long, gathering the sweets of religion from every bloom of scripture, coming off conquerors in the manner of Deborah, the Bee-Lady, and preparing honey for Christ. In fact, to support his theory that the Elusinian Mysteries came from Crete, A. Persson observed that the Greeks to this day hold their most solemn Easter Rites in the very bee cave in Crete in which Rhea gave birth to Zeus. And who isn't aware that Amalthea fed him with milk and honey even as Amitla fed the infant Abraham? (H. Nibley - "Abraham in Egypt", p. 233f). Who is not also aware that Abraham's mother's name is Amitla? Abraham, in the legends is living in a cave and being fed milk and honey by her finger in fact. This is an exact parallel with the infant Horus from Ancient Egypt. The rites and mysteries are everwhere overlapping from Greek to Crete, Egypt, and Semitic. If the earliest traditions of migrations of peoples insist on harping on the bees - and even the Hebrew word for the migrating of the hordes is "Bee-swarms" - zibariah - see Exodus 23:28! Then Joseph Smith puts us right in the picture for he told us not of just one, but of *two* separate migrations taking place shortly after the flood, starting from about the same place, from the Tower, but moving in opposite directions. Both parties t oiled through the deser ts of a blighted earth under dark and violent skies, moving towards promised lands. And the intimate and peculiar link between the two migrations is the friendly bee. Interestingly, the Latter Day Saints, ever settling and ever on the move, adopted the bee symbol from the beginning. The beehive symbol was everywhere in their newly settled arid land of Deseret. When Sirius and the sun combined their heat to destroy the world, the wandering hero Aristaeus sought out the all-wise Proteus at the end of the earth seeking an oracle concerning the exhausted state of things, and was told to make certain chthonian sacrifices, after which vast swarms of bees came forth and restored the fertility in the lands. This is Virgil's account in the Georgics. In Greece, as elsewhere, the oldest of all religious centers was established when the Bee-maidens, the daughters of Melissaeus and nurses of Zeus swarmed at the sacred oak of Dodona. The first oracular shrine in Israel was founded by Deborah, the Bee, where she died on the migration from Egypt at the sacred Oak of Deborah. The Bee-Mother was flourishing all over the Mediterranean in prehistoric times. The legends all speak of bee-led migrations (cf. the Jaredites) at the dawn of history, seeking not commerce but refuge from storm and starvation - survival. What ties all this together is, of all people, is Asenath, the Queen of the Deseret hive. Then and now, as the mother of Ephraim and Manasseh by Joseph, whom she married in a swarm of bees, bringing her honey and uncovering her person to do her reference. She is the servant of the Goddess Neith (THE Bee-Mother!). Why has the bee been brought back into our consciousness in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ? Well repeated echoes from the remote past keep reminding us that the office and calling of the bee was to bring about the stirrings of life, reviving the biological cycle in a world that has been totally ravaged by the cosmic forces of destruction. Is, then, Deseret waiting in the wings, held in reserve against the day, soon to come, when its salutary services will be once again required? >From the first, the bee symbol captivated the imagination of the LDS in their migrations and settlements. The emblematic hive became the seal of the Territory and State and adorned every importance edifice within the vast expanse of "our lovely Deseret". Finally by what strange coincidence does the "History of the Church" end with the sign of the bee? After the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, "The bodies... were removed.... at Emma's request, to near the Mansion House, and buried side by side, and the bee house was then moved and placed over their graves. (H. Nibley - "Abraham in Egypt", pp. 243ff) The breathtaking nd staggering amounts of correlations with history, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price are nowhere surpassed than with this splendid thing.... Deseret, the honeybee. How on living earth could Smith have put it all together so well? Not only is bee mentioned ONLY in the correct place it could have been in the BofM, the Jaredites, i.e., back in ancient times, but having it in the BofA, with all the historical correlations with that text as well as the facsimiles is utterly mindboggling! Who has ever performed such sheer daring and incredible accurate restoration of history, myth, ritual, religion, and apocalyptic? The bee is in the only place it could be in the scriptures. With the migrations. With the ancient peoples. It is associated with the only people that Smith could have gotten away with. He gets this correct as well. Where is there error? Here is pure history in all its grandeur. Here is real restoration of ancient concepts long ago forgotten but resurrected to our consciousness with an eloquence and greatness that is only now being discovered. It is an incredible testimony that any of this fits. It is staggering that it all fits. Kerry A. "Amazed at that BofM and BofA" Shirts Subject: Re: Min the Mormon God Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:11:16 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Kerry Shirts , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Kathleen McGuire , "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net, "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna , 'proclus' References: 1 In all the ten directions of the universe, there is only one truth. When we see clearly, the great teachings are the same. What can ever be lost? What can be attained? If we attain something, it was there from the beginning of time. If we lose something, it is hiding somewhere near us. Look: this ball in my pocket: can you see how priceless it is? -- Ryokan ___JSW___ Actually, considering what we know of Min, I can understand why God would be represented by such. Min has strong Canaanite connections. The similarities between the Egyptian Min (with his consort Isis), the Babylonian Nimrod (supposedly married his mother), Adonis (with his consort Astarte), the Canaanite Ba'al (with his consort Asherah), and YHWH (with HIS consort Asherah) are rather remarkable. ___KS___ Yes! I gave you all my FAIR paper which deals PRECISELY with this with some rather extensive (yes over 500 footnotes and sources) dealing with this... ___JSW___ (Just a side-point: another funny thing about these traditions is how the god gets torn into bits, and is either ingested, or resurrected, or both). This is close to a Masonic secret. It is associated with the HONEY BEE, which has invariably been a symbol of it in Babylon, Egypt, Syria, Israel and elsewhere. Another essential part of this secret is discussed in 1 Kings 7:13-14 and 17:20-23 and in the NT and elsewhere. ___Kerry___ Incredible! This tie in I also have discussed a little bit and I have another researcher discussing this honey bee with Neith the Egyptian Goddess for our FAIR newsletter "Apologia" next month. ----- And of course (you already knew this but) there is that amazing resurrection theme playing out in the story of Samson, who sees the honey in the dead carcase of a young lion, with bees all swarming about (Judges 14: 5-14). You remember that this is the basis of his riddle -- out of the eater came forth meat, and sweetness out of the strong. Or maybe it's just a coincidence. ___Kerry___ This is interesting! I had no idea the Masons also had this. ----- For what we do presage is not in gross, For we be brethren of the Rosie Cross; We have the Mason word, and second sight Things for to come we can fortell aright. The lamentable truth is that most Masons don't HAVE anything -- just as most members of the Church don't have anything. (Hey, don't look at *me* -- I'm just an egotistical poser showing off for the crowds.) But yes, there is plenty to occupy the attention for those who knocked on the Lodge door for something besides a chance to ride in the Shrinemobile and wear a funky red fez. Masonic Bees? Of course we have 'em, hive and all. The connexion of the bee with ancient mysteries has been an interest in the Fraternity since at least the days of George Oliver. I should mention (and save Bro.'. Art the perverse pleasure), the whole mystical tradition has been scrapped by the zealous Masonic scholars of the "authentic school." Nothing to mystical masonry at all, as John Hamill is pleased to remind us. While the earliest "authentic" Masonic records mention the Craft in the same breath with the Hermeticists and Rosicrucians, in retrospect the whole lot of them appear to have been charlatans and scammers. Sort of like me. No authentic mystical connexions whatsoever. Most modern Masons are embarrassed by the fanciful stories of early Brothers whose tales most moderns believe amount to zeal without knowledge. According to such individuals, "Beez is beez. They symbolize industry -- what the hell more do you want?" Others keep their mouths shut, but secretly think to themselves, "invenimus." Me? I rather think that there is more to the old traditions than meet the eye. They are much more than fantastical tellings divorced from any objective reality. Of course, I similarly think that anyone who is seriously worried about whether the NT story of Jesus walking on the water is LITERALLY, HISTORICALLY true, has likely missed the thrust of the story, which has little to do with the mechanics of human water-walking. ___Kerry___ I may have to seriously become one now...... ----- I thought you agreed with Arden Eby, that Freemasonry was just an old men's luncheon club, with an awkward mishmash of poorly-done rituals? I believe Enoch Shemna told me straight up he thinks I have the Devil for a master, and lie to conceal the fact. Me? I blab far too much to actually know anything. You guys should be kind to us loudmouth wandering malcontents. But, yes, Kerry, out of the many acquaintences I have, I honestly believe that with some patience, you would be the *most* likely to benefit from the awkward mishmash of poorly-done Masonic rituals. Talk to Art. Read Heredom. Read AQC. Read the Prestonian Lectures. Read other stuff. Several traditions would really turn your gears, including the Enoch tradition found in the Royal Arch, Royal Master and Select Master's degree (and elsewhere). Then again, other Mormons I know who have received the same degrees I have, later confess to me that they were dissappointed; they were hoping they would find a Masonic Endowment, with a key to understanding the Temple ritual better, but came to conclude that Masonry wasn't anything at all like Mormonism. Hmmm. There is the tradition that Masonry began in the Garden of Eden, when God taught the Divine Science of "Geometry" to Adam, who wrote it in a book, and passed it on to his posterity. Masons likewise had a tradition that Enoch succeeded Adam as Grand Master, and that prior to the Great Flood, they met together in a great council, in which Adam prophesied what lay in the future for his posterity. Of course, Eugene Seaich -- relying heavily on the scholarship of Carr, Knoop, Jones, and Hamer-- has made much of the early Masonic Noah tradition, in his interesting but misleading paper on Mormonism and Masonry. Unless this is unfamiliar to anyone, I won't bother repeating his claims. It was unfortunate that he was not as considerate of Masonic secrets as he would have liked Masons to be of Mormon secrets. What Masons in Joseph Smith's day believed about Ham/Egypt and Masonry makes me seriously think that Blacks and the Priesthood are a peripheral concern of the Book of Abraham. There is a much more pressing issue one needs first be acquainted with before the text can make sense... but that's a discussion for another day. Another interesting tradition has to do with the Tower of Babel. Note this interesting Masonic satire from 1722: If Hist'ry be no ancient Fable, Free Masons came from Tower of Babel; When first that Fabrick was begun, The Greatest underneath the Sun ..... But after They some Years had spent In Labor, with a good Intent, And found that all their Lab'ring Pain, Was still, alas! bestowed in vain, They then resolv'd no more to rome, But to return to their own Home: Tho' first they Signs and Marks did frame, To signify from whence they came; THAT WHERESOE'R THESE MEN SHOULD GO, THEY ALWAYS MIGHT THEIR BRETH'REN KNOW; And this was well contriv'd for want Of Learning, for the Ignorant, That WITHOUT SPEAKING EVERY TONGUE, (As by an ancient Bard is sung) ALL MASONS MIGHT OF EV'RY LAND THEIR MEANING EVER UNDERSTAND; And that it shou'd a Secret be Amongst themselves, they did agree. In other words, it appears that there was an early Masonic tradition, that the Craft developed certain signs and marks -- a SECRET LANGUAGE-- to preserve their secrets among the Brethren in spite of the confounding of tongues. Yep. A little something for everybody. Like the saying goes, "si talia jungere possis sit tibi scire satis." Aha. Joe "Ramblin Man" Swick Subject: Mormon/Mason Bees Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:42:36 -0400 (EDT) From: ArtdeHoyos@aol.com To: jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, proclus@mac.com Greetings, all, Over the past few months I've had little time to respond to anyone. I was recently hired as the full-time Archivist and Historian of the Supreme Council, 33, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction (Mother Council of the World). We're moving to the Washington, DC metropolitan area this summer, and are wrapping up our concerns in Texas. In a message dated 5/22/99 7:13:19 PM Central Daylight Time, jswick@cris.com writes: > Masonic Bees? Of course we have 'em, hive and all. The connexion of the > bee with ancient mysteries has been an interest in the Fraternity since at > least the days of George Oliver. Of course, my Bro.'.Joe is correct. The bees, the hives, etc. are still prominent Masonic symbols in the USA. There is ritualistic evidence that this tradition came from Scotland, and that they had an esoteric tradition connected with them. And speaking of Mormon bees, this week I finally watched "Plan 10 From Outer Space." For those unfamiliar with this movie, it was filmed in Salt Lake in 1995, and concerns a young inactive Mormon girl's attempt to discover "the secret of the bees." Both Mormon and Masonic symbolism is prominent throughout the film. But don't expect any "light" here! It is intended as a spoof, and stars Karen Black as "Nehor" the space alien, who was Brigham Young's 28th wife! If you want a laugh, I recommend it wholeheartedly. > I should mention (and save Bro.'. Art the perverse pleasure), the whole > mystical tradition has been scrapped by the zealous Masonic scholars of the > "authentic school." Bro.'.Joe, you sure have me pegged! Incidentally, if you'd like to read about recent revisions to the Scottish Rite Rituals, see the article entitled, "The Revised Standard Pike Ritual", at: http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/journal/may99/contents.htm Also, you can read about the latest "bonus book" for members of the Scottish Rite Research Society, at: http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/resrch1.htm Non-Masons *are* allowed to join the Scottish Rite Research Society. ---Art deHoyos.'. Subject: RE: Min the Mormon God Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 03:03:24 -0400 From: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> To: Kerry Shirts CC: Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Joe Steve Swick III , Dave , Beth any , Beth , ArtdeHoyos , Andy Mcguire , Randall Shortridge , "R. Trent Reynolds" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , "Michael J. P ierce" , Kathleen McGuire , 'proclus' , Enoch Shemna , Ken Shaw , rpc man Message text written by Kerry Shirts > our FAIR newsletter "Apologia" next month.< What FAIR newsletter ? How do we subscribe. Robert. Subject: Baphomet Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:58:20 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, proclus@mac.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com Baphomet: A "Mystery" Solved At Last? This article originally appeared in Annuit Coeptis, the official publication of Whiskey Rebellion Camp, Pittsburgh PA Ordo Templi Orientis. 1995) Sooner or later every student of either the esoteric or the history of the Crusades encounters the name of an allegedly sinister entity known as "Baphomet". Baphomet was said to be the "god" or "idol" of the Knights Templar, but has also been described as "the goat of Mendes", "the god of the witches", a latter-day version of the Greek god Pan, a symbol of an alchemical principal, and even Satan himself. And while each of these has a following, there is evidence suggesting the possibility that Baphomet's origins are not only not sinister, but human rather than supernatural. The "mystery" of Baphomet begins in 1307 with the demise of the Knights Templar. The military order of "warrior monks" was founded in 1118 in France after the First Crusade to protect European pilgrims on their way to and from the Holy Land. For nearly two centuries the Templars grew in size, strength, political clout, reputation (good at first, but bad towards the end), but most of all in wealth, and this would prove to be their undoing. In the early fourteenth century King Philip IV of France, who was deeply in debt to the Templars, decided to not only cancel that debt but seize their wealth and property for himself and having his puppet pontiff Clement V dissolve the order. To do this, Philip would have to have the Templars convicted of heresy. With "evidence" gathered from agents who infiltrated the Templars, along with a sworn deposition from a disgruntled ex-Templar on whose testimony his prosecutors could build a case, Philip made his move. Acting on sealed orders they were not to open until the previous midnight, Philip's officials arrested every Templar they could during the dawning hours of Friday, October 13, 1307. While some of the charges, such as sodomy and desecration of Christian symbols, were obviously silly even to many people at the time, other allegations, such as the chanting of "Yallah!" (Daraul, 1961), sounded like descriptions of documented Sufi Muslim practices (Khan, 1974). But it is the charge of worshipping an idol called "Baphomet" that has inspired the most controversy. At first, "Baphomet" was simply a head, and presumably a human one, but under the duress of torture, Baphomet's descriptions became progressively elaborate and fantastic. Nearly every historian who has written on the subject has dismissed the "Baphomet" issue as patently false, just one more trumped-up charge against the Templars. However, after studying both the hypothetical and more plausible connections between the Templars, Sufism, and Freemasonry, I have come to the tentative conclusion that the "Baphomet" matter may have contained a sizable element of truth -- one which the inquisitors certainly distorted, but true nonetheless. Most of us who have heard of Baphomet first encountered the name in either a history book or the works of Anton Szandor LaVey, whose goat's-head-in-the- inverted-pentagram illustration is supposed to be Baphomet, or else in the works of Aleister Crowley, who equated Baphomet with the Greek god Pan (Crowley, 1974). Crowley, who was born on the eve of the anniversary of the Templar arrests, even adopted the name "Baphomet" as his own motto when he joined Ordo Templi Orientis (Order of the Oriental Temple, or O.T.O.). Other occult writers who have discussed Baphomet include nineteenth century authors Eliphaz Levi and Albert Pike, and Baphomet is the model for "The Devil" in the Waite-Rider and Case-B.O.T.A. tarot decks. Many historians have claimed that the name "Baphomet" was Old French for Muhammad, whose name is sometimes spelled Mahomet, although Crowley (1989) presented an interesting, but probably coincidental, claim that the name came from a Greek phrase for "baptism of wisdom". The problem with Crowley's case is it overlooks two basic facts about the Templars: 1) as Roman Catholics, Greek names were not that important to them (and to Catholics at the time, the Greek Orthodox Christians were in some ways just as much "infidels" as the Muslims), and 2) the Templars who lived in the Holy Land, along with the masons they employed, had to deal with the local population on a regular basis, often became fluent in Arabic, and for a European in the Holy Land --Templars included -- to "go native" was not particularly unusual. But it was in the pop-history book Holy Blood, Holy Grail that I first came across the idea that "Baphomet" was derived from an Arabic term, abufihamet, meaning "Father of Understanding", rather than from an Old French name for the founder of Islam. Since that book, although a "good read", is not one scholars take seriously due to its highly speculative theses, I decided to check their source for this, Idries Shah's The Sufis, which contains additional relevant information discussed below. For now I tend to favor the Arabic origins over the Old French for the following reasons: first, as an iconoclastic religion, Islam strictly forbids images, either painted or sculpted, of either God or Muhammad, so the idea of even unorthodox Muslims worshipping an idol is simply ludicrous. Second, of those authors I have read who claim that "any expert on Old French" will say that Baphomet was another name for Muhammad never actually cite any such Old French experts to document this assertion. One such writer was Peter Partner, who even found a French troubadour ballad from the late thirteenth century and published an English translation, showing parenthetically that "Bafometz" had appeared in the original French (he had rendered it as "Mohammed" as if this had somehow proved his point). What Partner had inadvertently done was prove that a) Baphomet was a known entity before the demise of the Templars, and most likely a person with spiritual power, capable of working miracles (although Islam never credits Muhammad with any "miracle" other than receiving the Qur'an), and b) that Baphomet was known among non-Templars (although Partner believed the ballad's author was an ex-Templar, that troubadour's audience certainly had non-Templars among them), and if Shah is correct in his assertions about Sufic influences on the troubadours, then we have in the ballad Partner quoted possible proof of a link between Sufism and Baphomet. (As for the Templars and the Sufis, not only were there many documented contacts between Templars and Sufis [as well as other unorthodox Muslims such as the Ismailis] during their time in the Middle East, but there were also opportunities for contacts in Europe. France, after all, borders Spain, and during the Crusades Sufism flourished in Muslim-ruled Spain and influenced the early Qabalistic Jews and other mystics on both sides of the border; Robert Graves, in his introduction to Shah's book, even claimed that Templars fought alongside Sufi warriors in Spain. And many Masonic trappings, such as the checkered floor and the tolerance of all monotheistic religions, are at least Islamic in origin if not specifically Sufic.) But in my opinion the strongest support for Baphomet as abufihamet is the number of Arabic sobriquets which begin with abu which belonged to historical individuals rather than esoteric principles. One such individual was the tenth century Sufi martyr Husayn ibn Mansur al- Hallaj, who died in 922CE. A pantheist, an alleged miracle worker, and a most definitely unorthodox Muslim, Hallaj was imprisoned and tried for blasphemy for his public descriptions of his mystical union with God. Finally convicted after a nine year inquiry, Hallaj was maimed, crucified, beheaded, and his torso was cremated. Some of the stories surrounding his death include an account of the Caliph's Queen Mother having Hallaj's head preserved as a relic (Singh, 1970). Various Sufi sects have rituals commemorating Hallaj's death, and Shah claimed that Hallaj was the model for the "Hiram Abiff" character in the Master Mason initiation ritual. Although Shah cited other reasons connecting Hallaj to Hiram Abiff and the sect of Sufis known as "the Builders" (who built the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock on the site of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, which was the Holy Land headquarters for the Templars and the mythical scene of Masonic initiations), Hallaj bore some interesting parallels to the Old Testament's descriptions of Hiram the artificer: first, both men were sons of widows; second, both men had "sons of David" play key roles in their lives (Hiram worked for Solomon, and one of Hallaj's prosecutors was named Ibn Daud [Massignon, 1994], which is Arabic for "Son of David"), and third, the Old Testament Hebrew for "Abiff" is abyu (Kohlenberger, 1987). Having already encountered writers who hypothesized a connection between the Templars and Freemasonry (which, although plausible, is nowhere near as romantic or fantastic as some, such as John J. Robinson in Born in Blood, have claimed), I had already found the first two most interesting, and further investigation of Hallaj, who, according to the medieval Islamic poet and historian Farid al-Din Attar, turns out to have been known by several titles beginning with abu-, brought the third coincidence to my attention. And since, as noted above, some of the Templars may indeed have been participants in documented Sufi practices, could the charge that the Templars "worshipped a head called Baphomet" not have had some factual basis, namely the commemoration of a decapitated Sufi martyr whose head became a relic and who had been given the sobriquet abufihamet? The only problem here is that despite all the other abu- titles belonging to Hallaj, there is no known documentation linking him to abufihamet. Perhaps this documentation does exist, but has not yet come to my attention, and should someone who knows of it ever read this essay, I would be most appreciative to hear of it. Until then, the above thesis, although plausible in my opinion, and hopefully interesting to the reader, remains purely speculative. But if it does turn up, then at last we will have proof positive that the Templars possessed a body of knowledge that would later become known to the Freemasons, regardless of how Freemasonry came to be. Frater Baraka invites opinions and support to his thesis. Those wishing to contact the author may write to him at P.O. Box 101722, Pittsburgh PA, 15237 or zentao93@juno.com Bibliography Attar, Farid al-Din (A.J. Arberry, trans.). Muslim Saints and Mystics. New York: Arkana, 1990. Baigent, Michael, Leigh, Richard, and Lincoln, Henry. Holy Blood, Holy Grail. New York: Dell, 1982. Case, Paul Foster. The Tarot: A Key to the Wisdom of the Ages (revised edition). Los Angeles: Builders of the Adytum, 1990. Crowley, Aleister. The Book of Thoth. York Beach: Samuel Weiser, 1974. __________. The Confessions of Aleister Crowley. New York: Arkana, 1989. Daraul, Arkon. A History of Secret Societies. New York: Citadel Press, 1961. Howarth, Stephen. The Knights Templar. New York: Dorset, 1991. Khan, Pir Vilayat Inayat. Toward the One. New York: Harper Colophon, 1974. Kohlenberger, John R. III, ed. The New International Version Hebrew-English Interlinear Old Testament. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1987. LaVey, Anton Szandor. The Satanic Bible. New York: Avon Books, 1969. Levi, Eliphaz (A.E. Waite, trans.). Transcendental Magic. York Beach: Samuel Weiser, 1970. Massignon, Louis (H. Mason, ed. & trans.). Hallaj: Mystic and Martyr. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1994. Partner, Peter. The Murdered Magicians: The Templars and their Myth. New York: Barnes & Noble Books, 1993. Pike, Albert. Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. Charleston: Supreme Council of the Thirty Third Degree for the Southern United States, 1871. Robinson, John J. Born in Blood: The Lost Secrets of Freemasonry. New York: Evans, 1989. __________. Dungeon, Fire, and Sword: The Knights Templar in the Crusades . New York: Evans, 1991. Shah, Idries. The Sufis. New York: Doubleday Anchor, 1964. Singh, Kapur. Mansur Al-Hallaj. Patiala: Guru Gobind Singh, Department of Religious Studies, Punjabi University, 1970. Waite, Arthur Edward. Pictorial Key to the Tarot. New York: Causeway, no date. Subject: Ancient Sufism Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:35:21 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, proclus@mac.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com Hail Mutants! I was doing some study on Karaite Judaism and became very interested in the conflict between the Karaim and the Rabbanim on the Law of Tefillin. The Karaim point out that the word "totafot" which is translated as "frontlet in Exodus 13:16 is the exact equivalent of the word "zikron" which is translated as "remembrance" back in Exodus 13:9. The Karaites don't wear Tefillin because they believe that the Law of Teliffin is refering to a meditation practice in which the the Torah is internalized or "written in the heart". I suddenly flashed on the word "Zikron" when I realized it is cognate with the Arabic "Zikr" which also means "remembrance" and is refering to a specific technique of Sufi practice. "Zikr" is a kind of "Mantra Yoga" in which the Divine Names is chanted in time with specific body motions and breathing. "Zikr" in a group, under the direction of a Shaykh, produces profound changes in consciousness, called "intoxication", that can only be described as "psychedelic" (mind-manifesting). So I started looking for other ZKR words in the Torah and straight away came to the heart of the Mosaic Revelation, Exodus 3:15 which reads: "And Elohim said to Mosheh, 'Thus shall you say to the sons of Yisrael, Yahue, Elohim of your fathers, Elohim of Abraham, Elohim of Yitzak, and Elohim of Yakob, has sent me to you; this is my Name to this age, and and this my remembrance (zekr) generation to generation'". (my own translation) What is of interest to me is the fact that the zikr "Yah Hu" has been used in Sufism from the begining, even though it is has been understood to mean "Oh He!". I guess that it might be useful to see if the Tetragramaton could actually read "He Is". Anyway, it looks to me like the tradition that became Kabbalah in Judaism and Sufism in Islam and Bhakti Yoga in Hinduism is very, VERY old indeed. Subject: Jewish Sufism Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:19:54 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org IV. Seclusion as a meditative practice in Sufism and Sabbateanism ======================================================== Khalwa (Arbic) or Hitbodedut (Hebrew) -- lit. seclusion; may signify either the outer seclusion -- spiritual retreat to a secluded place, most often a cave or a cell, or, by extension, the inner seclusion -- the meditational technique practiced during such a retreat, or the psychological state resulting from it, i.e., oblivion to the world of senses. [For a comparative study of seclusion, see: P.B. Fenton, "Solitary Meditation in Jewish and Islamic Mysticism in the Light of a Recent Archeological Discovery", Medieval Encounters 1(2), pp. 271-296.] Prototypes of seclusion include, in the Jewish tradition, Moses' and Elijah's seclusion in the desert, and in the Moslem -- Muhammad's sojourn in the cave of Hira. In ancient Judaism meditative seclusion has been practiced at least since the Essenians and Therapeuts. Researchers surmise that the ritualistic notion of Khalwa came into Sufi usage from the Christian monastic tradition: the Syriac cognate Hulla designates a monk's cell. Seclusion was a widespread practice among Kabbalists, in particular Safed Kabbalists in the 16th century. Safed was also a center of Rifa`i Sufi activity, and archeological recent discoveries have unearthed a cavity in a mountain opposite the city, which, according to an inscription found inside it, had been used as a Sufi cell -- Zawiyya -- at least from the time of the Mamelukes. This discovery provides evidence of the surmise that Safed was a major spiritual center not only for Jewish mystics but for Moslem ones as well. The archeological findings give us a remarkable example of a parallel devotional ritual shared by the two great mystical traditions at the same time in the Land of Israel. AMIRA"H used both means of seclusion -- the inner and the outer one. AMIRA"H started this practice early on, in his youth in Smyrna, where, R. Avrahm Cuenque tells us, he used to "retreat to the mountains and caves and neither his brothers nor his father's house knew whither he went." This withdrawal to the caves and mountains is strongly reminiscent of the Sufi practice, and strengthens our characterization of AMIRA"H as a Sufi mystic. Sabbatai Sevi used to retreat to seclusion while he was in Jerusalem too, before his fisrt public revelation; his places of retreat were a seclusion room in his home, and sometimes the caves and deserts in the Judea mountains. This seclusion practice may reflect both Sufi Khalwa practice and a pratice of desert monasticism which developed in the Eastern Church. Also, it should be mentioned in this context that in multi-religious Smyrna and Jerusalem both, AMIRA"H had the chance to contact Eastern Orthodox monks as well as Sufi mystics. In Sufism, we have detailed descriptions of the inner sort of seclusion. For instance, the imminent Sufi theologian al-Ghazali, in his "'Ihya' `Ulum ad-Din" (=The Revival of the Science of Religion), describes the meditational practice needed for illumination: "The path to illumination consisits initially of detaching one's self from wordly fetters and emptying the heart of such things (...) to such an extent that the worshipper's mind becomes indifferent to the existence and non-existence of things. Then he will isolate himself in a Zawiyya in order to meditate (...) He will endeavour to fix his thought on nought else but the word Allah. Then, after having settled in his retreat, he will continuously repeat the word Allah, concentrating to such a degree that he ceases to pronounce the word which will henseforth flow upon his tongue (...) Then the word's form, its letters and its writing will be absorbed into his mind, only the meaning remaining (...) If his will and intention be pure and he continue to presrve, without allowing himself to be disturbed by physical desires and material thoughts, the Divine light will eventually illuminate his heart." We have no evidence pertaining to Sabbatai Sevi's techniques of inner seclusion; however, al-Ghazali's description is a possible guide to his practices. It seems a probable surmise that AMIRA"H subsituted God's ineffable name for al-Ghazali's Allah. According to one eye-witness, R. Isreal Hazan, while in this mystical state of seclusion, AMIRA"H tried to unify all the worlds -- the upper as well as the lower echelons of creation -- in one pantheistic all-embracing unity. al-`abd al-mamnun, Ibrahim Al-Qa`im Subject: Re: Ancient Sufism Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:18:33 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: Ken Shaw , shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, proclus@mac.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com References: 1 Excellent discussion, Ken! This is the kind of thing I like about the RM list. Your discussion reminds me of Kaplan's discussion of certain Kabbalistic meditative practices, indicated by the word hitbodedut. Are you familiar with this? JSW ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Shaw To: ?.3365@compuserve.com> Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 8:35 AM Subject: Ancient Sufism > > Hail Mutants! > > > I was doing some study on Karaite Judaism and became very interested > in the conflict between the Karaim and the Rabbanim on the Law of Tefillin. > > The Karaim point out that the word "totafot" which is translated as "frontlet > in Exodus 13:16 is the exact equivalent of the word "zikron" which is translated > as "remembrance" back in Exodus 13:9. The Karaites don't wear Tefillin because > they believe that the Law of Teliffin is refering to a meditation practice in > which the the Torah is internalized or "written in the heart". > > I suddenly flashed on the word "Zikron" when I realized it is cognate with the > Arabic "Zikr" which also means "remembrance" and is refering to a specific > technique of Sufi practice. "Zikr" is a kind of "Mantra Yoga" in which the > Divine Names is chanted in time with specific body motions and breathing. > > "Zikr" in a group, under the direction of a Shaykh, produces profound changes in > consciousness, called "intoxication", that can only be described as "psychedelic" > (mind-manifesting). > > So I started looking for other ZKR words in the Torah and straight away came to > the heart of the Mosaic Revelation, Exodus 3:15 which reads: > > "And Elohim said to Mosheh, 'Thus shall you say to the sons of Yisrael, > Yahue, Elohim of your fathers, Elohim of Abraham, Elohim of Yitzak, and > Elohim of Yakob, has sent me to you; this is my Name to this age, and > and this my remembrance (zekr) generation to generation'". > (my own translation) > > What is of interest to me is the fact that the zikr "Yah Hu" has been used > in Sufism from the begining, even though it is has been understood to mean > "Oh He!". > > I guess that it might be useful to see if the Tetragramaton could actually > read "He Is". > > Anyway, it looks to me like the tradition that became Kabbalah in Judaism and > Sufism in Islam and Bhakti Yoga in Hinduism is very, VERY old indeed. > Subject: Re: Ancient Sufism Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:32:45 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org, proclus@mac.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com CC: Student007@msn.com Joe, The prayer method taught by George Pace at BYU was pretty much hitbodedut. Gearge Pace's stages of prayer: 1. Ordinary prayer. Awkwardness, self-consiousness negotiation with vaguely imaginined authority figure. 2. Confessional prayer. Telling the truth to a vaguely imagined authority figure. The emotions start to engage. 3. Repentant prayer. The first intimations of a Real Presence from a Higher Reality. The actual "taste" of the Higher strikes awe into the heart and reveals in a flash of insight the sickness and sins of the soul. The soul is pierced with anquish and desires to turn away from evil. 4. Adoring prayer. The Presence of the Higher blots out the sense of sin like the rising Sun. Profound love for the Presence inspires spontanious adoration of the Presence. 5. Longing prayer. The love for the Presence flames up into an almost sexual desire to unite with the Presence, to merge with the Presence. 6. Wordless Abandon. All words fall way, all sense of "self" disappears, the senses have withdrawn from the outer world, consciousness has united into single point and flies into the Presence. 7. Absorption. Only the Presence is Present. "He" stands in the world in your body. "He" looks out through your eyes and hears with your ears. 8. Mystery. It becomes plain that "you" never existed at all, "He" is All. OK...so I filled it out a little...but that's the idea. Ken Shaw ----- Begin Included Message ----- Excellent discussion, Ken! This is the kind of thing I like about the RM list. Your discussion reminds me of Kaplan's discussion of certain Kabbalistic meditative practices, indicated by the word hitbodedut. Are you familiar with this? JSW -------------------------------------------------------------- Hail Mutants! I was doing some study on Karaite Judaism and became very interested in the conflict between the Karaim and the Rabbanim on the Law of Tefillin. The Karaim point out that the word "totafot" which is translated as "frontlet in Exodus 13:16 is the exact equivalent of the word "zikron" which is translated as "remembrance" back in Exodus 13:9. The Karaites don't wear Tefillin because they believe that the Law of Teliffin is refering to a meditation practice in which the the Torah is internalized or "written in the heart". I suddenly flashed on the word "Zikron" when I realized it is cognate with the Arabic "Zikr" which also means "remembrance" and is refering to a specific technique of Sufi practice. "Zikr" is a kind of "Mantra Yoga" in which the Divine Names is chanted in time with specific body motions and breathing. "Zikr" in a group, under the direction of a Shaykh, produces profound changes in consciousness, called "intoxication", that can only be described as "psychedelic" (mind-manifesting). So I started looking for other ZKR words in the Torah and straight away came to the heart of the Mosaic Revelation, Exodus 3:15 which reads: "And Elohim said to Mosheh, 'Thus shall you say to the sons of Yisrael, Yahue, Elohim of your fathers, Elohim of Abraham, Elohim of Yitzak, and Elohim of Yakob, has sent me to you; this is my Name to this age, and and this my remembrance (zekr) generation to generation'". (my own translation) What is of interest to me is the fact that the zikr "Yah Hu" has been used in Sufism from the begining, even though it is has been understood to mean "Oh He!". I guess that it might be useful to see if the Tetragramaton could actually read "He Is". Anyway, it looks to me like the tradition that became Kabbalah in Judaism and Sufism in Islam and Bhakti Yoga in Hinduism is very, VERY old indeed. ----- End Included Message ----- Subject: Re: The Radical Mormon Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:35:15 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: proclus , Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , Enoch Shemna References: 1 Of course, I like the page. However, Jeff Lindsey's Mormonism and Masonry page is the biggest whitewash I've ever seen. JSW ----- Original Message ----- From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve Swick III ArtdeHoyos Randall Shortridge Beth any proclus rpc man Dave Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Ken Shaw Beth Kerry Shirts Michael J. Pierce Enoch Shemna Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:56 PM Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon > Here is that link again. > > > > I haven't received any responses yet, but I took it on to beta anyway. > I also sent a message to Absalom, and requested a Yahoo listing. It is > online and public now. I changed the poll to the Mormon qu estion. Go > take the poll and rack up a few comments. Have fun! Play with it. > Later, I will return to give you further instructions ;-}. > > Regards, > proclus > > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:35:20 -0600 From: Kerry Shirts To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , rpc man , Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , Enoch Shemna , 'proclus' HEY! The article on Gematria and the Book of Mormon was absolutely PRECIOUS! Man can we get more stuff like that researched? I know John Gee took a dim view of Joe Sampson's book "Written By the Finger of GOd," and I respect his Egyptological prowess, but I felt he was too harsh with Sampson. Has any of us ever gotten into this book and should we discuss it more? I for one would LOVE to learn more Gematria and how it applies. THANKS for the great website Proclus, you stud (a compliment, a compliment I hasten to add - I called one guy that and darn near had armageddon on my hands - GRIN!). Kerry A. Shirts ---------- From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 5:56 PM To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; Dave; Robert R. Black; Ken Shaw; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce; Enoch Shemna Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon Here is that link again. I haven't received any responses yet, but I took it on to beta anyway. I also sent a message to Absalom, and requested a Yahoo listing. It is online and public now. I changed the poll to the Mormon question. Go take the poll and rack up a few comments. Have fun! Play with it. Later, I will return to give you further instructions ;-}. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: LDS Are Very Intolerant... Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:59:46 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: KATHY CHRISTENSEN , Kerry Shirts , Michael Love , Ken Shaw ___aint mormon anti___ You would think that given their experiences with the unreasoning force of government in the 1890's, Mormons would come to prize personal liberties all the more. Unfortunately, most LDS... believe in using government force to coerce others into keeping their version of morality. (Don't know what genus wrote it) ----- Errr... not that I feel some big need to take credit, but I'm the one who said this. I'm not quite sure what genus I am. Several ARM posters probably have some theories about this. Cheers, Joe Swick Heretic Subject: Re: The Radical Mormon Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:11:45 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 , 2 Ahh, I was wondering about that so-called mormon mason FAQ. It came up in the discussions here once or twice, so I thought that I would include it. Perhaps there are other links that would be more appropriate.(?) Regards, proclus Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > Of course, I like the page. However, Jeff Lindsey's Mormonism and Masonry > page is the biggest whitewash I've ever seen. > > JSW > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: proclus > To: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire > R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve Swick > III ArtdeHoyos Randall Shortridge > Beth any proclus > rpc man Dave > Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Ken Shaw > Beth Kerry Shirts Michael > J. Pierce Enoch Shemna > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:56 PM > Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon > > > Here is that link again. > > > > > > > > I haven't received any responses yet, but I took it on to beta anyway. > > I also sent a message to Absalom, and requested a Yahoo listing. It is > > online and public now. I changed the poll to the Mormon question. Go > > take the poll and rack up a few comments. Have fun! Play with it. > > Later, I will return to give you further instructions ;-}. > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > > > > > -- > > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > Version: 3.1 > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > > V-- > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > r+++ y++++ > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: The Radical Mormon Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:24:50 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 Kerry Shirts wrote: > > HEY! The article on Gematria and the Book of Mormon was absolutely > PRECIOUS! Yea, I know what you mean. I read that and Rabbi Josef's material at the same time. I think Ken recommended them. They knocked my socks off completely. I think that the BOM gematria and kabbalah stuff is among the most important radical mormon stuff happening right now. > THANKS for the great website Proclus, you stud (a compliment, a compliment > I hasten to add - I called one guy that and darn near had armageddon on my > hands - GRIN!). Thanks man. Don't forget that it is your website too. Should we and a FAIR block to the sidebar. Perhaps you could keep us updated with recent material. Too many mormon news sites peter out. It is up to us to keep this one turgid ;-}. Regards, proclus > Kerry A. Shirts > > ---------- > From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 5:56 PM > To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick > III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man; Dave; > Robert R. Black; Ken Shaw; Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce; Enoch > Shemna > Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon > > Here is that link again. > > > > I haven't received any responses yet, but I took it on to beta anyway. > I also sent a message to Absalom, and requested a Yahoo listing. It is > online and public now. I changed the poll to the Mormon question. Go > take the poll and rack up a few comments. Have fun! Play with it. > Later, I will return to give you further instructions ;-}. > > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: mahonri-L Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:30:32 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna It looks like mahonri-L has been brought quietly back on line. I just don't know what to think about this. We could join en mass =}. http://www.troubador.com/~mahonri/list.html Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Beth Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:46:07 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna Beth's emails are getting routinely bounced again. Any word about Beth? I'm going to have to remove her from the list. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: Re: Beth Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:10:25 -0500 (CDT) From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw) To: MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org Proclus, I have Beth's phone number. I'll try to get ahold of her tonight and see what's going on. Ken Shaw > > Beth's emails are getting routinely bounced again. Any word about > Beth? I'm going to have to remove her from the list. > > Regards, > proclus > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > Subject: Re: The Radical Mormon Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:19:01 -0700 From: Joe Steve Swick III To: proclus , Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth , Beth any , Dave , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net, "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 , 2 , 3 I'll make some recommendations here in the next day or so... I'm off this evening to receive the first two Orders of Knight Templary -- the Orders of Red Cross and Malta. I'll be sure to return and report, Brethern and Sistern. Cheers, JSW ----- Original Message ----- From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire ArtdeHoyos Beth Beth any Dave Joe Steve Swick III ; Kathleen McGuire Kerry Shirts Michael J. Pierce proclus R. Trent Reynolds Randall Shortridge Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> rpc man Ken Shaw Enoch Shemna Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 6:11 AM Subject: Re: The Radical Mormon > Ahh, I was wondering about that so-called mormon mason FAQ. It came up > in the discussions here once or twice, so I thought that I would include > it. Perhaps there are other links that would be more appropriate.(?) > > Regards, > proclus > > > Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > > > Of course, I like the page. However, Jeff Lindsey's Mormonism and Masonry > > page is the biggest whitewash I've ever seen. > > > > JSW > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: proclus > > To: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire > > R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve Swick > > III ArtdeHoyos Randall Shortridge > > Beth any proclus > > rpc man Dave > > Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Ken Shaw > > Beth Kerry Shirts Michael > > J. Pierce Enoch Shemna > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:56 PM > > Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon > > > > > Here is that link again. > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't received any responses yet, but I took it on to beta anyway. > > > I also sent a message to Absalom, and requested a Yahoo listing. It is > > > online and public now. I changed the poll to the Mormon question. Go > > > take the poll and rack up a few comments. Have fun! Play with it. > > > Later, I will return to give you further instructions ;-}. > > > > > > Regards, > > > proclus > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > Version: 3.1 > > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > > > V-- > > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > > r+++ y++++ > > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > V-- > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > Subject: Re: The Radical Mormon Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:36:10 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Sounds wonderful. Congrats! Regards, proclus Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > I'll make some recommendations here in the next day or so... I'm off this > evening to receive the first two Orders of Knight Templary -- the Orders of > Red Cross and Malta. > > I'll be sure to return and report, Brethern and Sistern. > > Cheers, > JSW > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: proclus > To: Andy Mcguire ArtdeHoyos > Beth Beth any Dave > Joe Steve Swick III Kathleen McGuire > Kerry Shirts Michael J. > Pierce proclus > R. Trent Reynolds Randall > Shortridge Robert R. Black > ?.3365@compuserve.com> rpc man Ken Shaw > Enoch Shemna > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 6:11 AM > Subject: Re: The Radical Mormon > > > Ahh, I was wondering about that so-called mormon mason FAQ. It came up > > in the discussions here once or twice, so I thought that I would include > > it. Perhaps there are other links that would be more appropriate.(?) > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > > > > > Joe Steve Swick III wrote: > > > > > > Of course, I like the page. However, Jeff Lindsey's Mormonism and > Masonry > > > page is the biggest whitewash I've ever seen. > > > > > > JSW > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: proclus > > > To: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire > > > R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve > Swick > > > III ArtdeHoyos Randall > Shortridge > > > Beth any proclus > > > rpc man Dave > > > > Robert R. Black ?.3365@compuserve.com> Ken Shaw > > > > Beth Kerry Shirts > Michael > > > J. Pierce Enoch Shemna > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:56 PM > > > Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon > > > > > > > Here is that link again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't received any responses yet, but I took it on to beta anyway. > > > > I also sent a message to Absalom, and requested a Yahoo listing. It > is > > > > online and public now. I changed the poll to the Mormon question. Go > > > > take the poll and rack up a few comments. Have fun! Play with it. > > > > Later, I will return to give you further instructions ;-}. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > proclus > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > > > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > > Version: 3.1 > > > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > M++ > > > > V-- > > > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > > > r+++ y++++ > > > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > > > > -- > > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > Version: 3.1 > > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ > > V-- > > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- > > r+++ y++++ > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: The Osiris Library is Down! Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:04:20 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , Ken Shaw , Enoch Shemna Guys, I am getting a little paranoid. Does anybody know what's up with the Osiris Library? http://www.homestar.net/osiris/ Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: The Radical Mormon Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:56:39 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge , Beth any , proclus , rpc man , Dave , "Robert R. Black" <74277.3365@compuserve.com>, Ken Shaw , Beth , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , Enoch Shemna Here is that link again. I haven't received any responses yet, but I took it on to beta anyway. I also sent a message to Absalom, and requested a Yahoo listing. It is online and public now. I changed the poll to the Mormon question. Go take the poll and rack up a few comments. Have fun! Play with it. Later, I will return to give you further instructions ;-}. Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: RE: Jewish Book of Abraham Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:12:17 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man Ken, I can't thank you enough for posting Kerry's summary of Rabbi Wernick's dissertation! I know that this is a little belated, but; Thank you Thank you Thank you both! I skimmed the dissertation originally, and it looked great, but I just didn't have to time to digest the dense presentation. I am truly grateful for this summary. BOA is fast becoming my favorite scrpture. If anybody wants me to point out the summary in the archive, I will do it. I just have to "grep Wernick" at home. Uh, hopefully I actually put it in the archive. I was reading a copy that I printed out. ;-} Regards, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Subject: mutant busnusy stuff Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:40:11 -0400 From: proclus To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos , Beth any , Dave , Enoch Shemna , Joe Steve Swick III , Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw , Kerry Shirts , "Michael J. Pierce" , "onandagus@webtv.net" , proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black" , rpc man several items --------- I'm still waiting on the new guy. He has to check off on the FAQ. You know the drill ;-}. I am happy that it takes more than a click of the mouse to join this wonderful group. Are any of you subscribed to Mormon News? I subscribed to the mailing list, but I haven't received anything yet. They do have some good stories that are pretty fresh. It appears that they are doing something similar to what we are trying to do in The Radical Mormon. Deseret Church news is another matter. I haven't heard back from them yet, which is good news, I think. Whatever you think of them, it would be great, if they opened up their features to us. Now THAT would be news. I wonder if they'll offer us a deal or free samples. Maybe they'll even do a story on fringe mormon websites (alternative mormon?, unofficial?). Hey, I can dream, can't I? I've been doing more research on the "radical mormon" terminology, with respect to our new publication. It seems that the mormon gay community has many early adopters of the term "radical mormon". I think we need to discuss this. ;-} I understand that not everyone here will be uniformly pleased by this news. I definitely think that we should list some mormon gay news items, if there is such a thingy. in the side bar of the Radical. That can't hurt, no? Isn't there a site called Affirmation or something like that? ;-} I finally got the table tags right. I spied on Slashdot's code! Everything is lined up at the top now. Please keep the suggestions coming! Best Regards to you All, proclus -- Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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