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Pagan Boots 1
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PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/21/92        10:35 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/21/1992


Andy

I have alot more Wiccan parallels to post.  I just finished
SPIRAL DANCE (at last!).  Chapter 10, Initiation, was
eye-opening.  There is so much to post about this that I am
going to do it a little at a time.  Unfortunately, this will
make the material a little less astounding. So, try to take
it all together.

Well now, solstice is upon us.  The silvery star is burning
wildly overhead.  It is a time when Nature hides in
crystals that shower upon our heads, Carmel's dew reified.

Wiccan initiations are usually performed in "the naked body
of truth", that is; nude.

"We must strip ourselves of our defenses, pretensions,
masks, roles, of our clothing and jewels, all that we assume
and put on, in order to cross the threshold and enter the
inner kingdom.  The door opens only to the naked body of
truth, bound by cords, our recognition of mortality...  The
cords of binding become the umbilical link to life.  Death
is subsumed into life, and we learn the Great Mystery." p161

This declaration of the reasons for nakedness in Wiccan
ritual is not unlike Mormon explanations why street clothes
aren't worn in the temple.  We are leaving the world
outside. Our worldly distinctions are left in the locker. In
Mormonism, our nakedness is merely symbolised by the white
garb, before the robes.

Now, what can we learn from the Wiccan cords.  In Mormonism,
we are not bound by cords, but by sashes and ties.  The bows
and knots symbolise the seriousness of our obligations.  The
robes and all symbolise the gloriousness of the promise.

I have some background for this.  In some oriental weddings
the couple holds hands and their wrists are tied with a
cord.  The parallel is clear.
                               >>>>>>>>>>>
Another example comes from the D&C.  I the Lord am bound
when you do what I say, but when you do not what I say, you
have no promise.  I have commented before how this scripture
represents the essence of the covenant motif.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/21/92        10:35 PM

binding promise
bound by contract, and so on

Finally, all of this makes me wonder.  I have looked for a
scholarly exposition on the importance of knot lore for
transmitance of culture and ritual.  I haven't found
anything yet.  Maybe it is because it is too obvious, too
simple.  Let me know if you have heard anything about knots
and culture.

      boy scout
      coastie

             proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/22/92        10:44 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       CWXH30A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/22/1992


Hi Kerry!

Now that you all have a little taste of the Wiccan
endowment, we'll digress a moment and discuss some basic
principles of ritual, in general, and the Wiccan endowment
in particular.  So much of the material published by the
witches is about calendars and spells.  This is what made it
so difficult to make the comparison with Mormonism.  We
first began to suspect that there were mormonish practices
within modern witchcraft when Robert Anton Wilson suggested
that The Craft was really a form of freemasonry for women.
Indeed, freemasons in Wilson's novels refer to "The Craft"
instead of "the Lodge".  Wilson is no mean authority on the
subject since he is an initiate in many masonic and
rosicrucian style lodges.  He is also a white cord witch.

It seems that Wilson, like many of us, is loathe to discuss
the details of his initiatory experiences.  He takes the
oaths very seriously.  He only drops hints and coded
references here and there.  This attitude is by no means
universal.  Israel Regardie published the rituals of the
Golden Dawn.  Starhawk published a wiccan initiation.  Many
Mormons have faced censure to unveil the temple rite.  These
publications received mixed reviews in these circles.  In
fact, the authors themselves express some reservations about
it.  But overall they see it as a superb networking ploy and
a good way to spread thousands of copies of the ritual text
around the world.  In the event of some monumental disaster
their ritual traditions will be preserved.   >>>>>>>>>>>

All of these traditions share common ritual elements.  "An
initiation is a symbolic death and rebirth, a rite of
passage that transforms each person who experiences it.  In
the Craft, it marks acceptance into a coven, and a deep,
personal commitment to the Goddess.  It is a pngt of power
and love that coveners each give each other:  the experience
of those inner secrets that cannot be told because they go
beyond words.  For the individual, it becomes a change that
causes revelation and understanding and sparks further
growth."  p160                  >>>>>>>>>>>>

These rituals always include a period of preparation and
learning.  For Mormons and witches this means a year of
study, although this is not always followed strictly.  Many
esoteric societies have extensive periods of preparation
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/22/92        10:44 PM

that are nearly rituals unto themselves.

Solomon's knot

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/24/92        10:40 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/24/1992


Andy

My freind, Jeremy Ahouse, suggested that knots are so
ubiquitous in human culture that any convergence with repect
to knots and ritual can easily be explained as coincidence.
This is a valid point, but how do you veiw coincidence?  Why
are knots so ubiquitous?  Are they more important than the
wheel?

I find universal motifs like this most interesting.  That so
many of them are incorporated into Mormonism may provide
intellectual proof of the Gospel to some.  (Anybody is
welcome to give me a lecture on faith!)  I think they
provide us with important information about the nature of
this experience that God engineered for us.  Really, that is
what intiation often seems to be about.  What is the world
supposed to be for the archtypal woman or man?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/25/92        10:40 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/25  8:04 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GERALD SMITH   (CRPV57A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

I don't have a problem with a person proclaiming a
particular religion. In fact, I am glad that persons seek
after God. I do however, have a problem with persons who
profess to be Latter-Day Saints, and try bringing the
philosophies of men into it. This is not a church with
trifling beliefs. The Book of Mormon and the living prophets
have made it clear. I again refer you to Elder Joseph
Wirthlin's talk in the last Conference, and also Moroni
chapter 7. There is no gray area in the gospel. There are
many members that are beginning to release their grip on the
iron rod and wander into strange paths (see Lehi's dream of
the Tree of Life, 1Nephi 8,11). These were people following
God, but let go of the truth and followed other beliefs.
Jacob said that they "looked beyond the mark." Whether it is
worshipping nature, praying to Mother in Heaven (which some
members are beginning to do), or worshipping a gospel hobby
(see McConkie's Mormon Doctrine), it is all falsehood and
leads away from God. My belief is that if it is not written
clearly in the scriptures, or taught by Church leaders from
the pulpit at General Conference, then it is opinion and
should be considered as such. I have my opinions on certain
things also, but one thing that I do know from my studies.
Paganism was started anciently by the likes of the
Babylonians and Assyrians. They worshipped Baal and Astarte
and other "gods of nature." Elijah proved those gods to be
false gods. Egypt also worshipped the gods of nature.
Abraham, Joseph, Moses and others had to descry the
wickedness that happened by those who followed in those
paths. Abraham's father made the idols which represented the
gods of nature. Abraham was almost sacrificed to the gods of
nature at the Great Year Rites which the Egyptians and
Babylonians practiced.
Paganism might seem interesting, but it is a dangerous and
evil practice that leads to idolatry and worse. Comparing
the temple rites with the pagan's dancing in the nude to
worship nature is exactly what Satan wants done. It is that
same Satan who corrupted the things of God and seeks for us
to follow his imitation. "Stand in holy places and be not
moved." Paganism's history shows it to stand in wicked,
idolatrous places, not in the light of Christ's revelations.
If you pray about it sincerely and with real intent, you'll
find that what I am saying is correct. There are no gray
areas. One is either following Christ, or they are deceived.
Yes, some are more deceived than others. But they are still
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/25/92        10:40 AM

deceived. We have better things to do than to learn the
rites of an apostate, idolatrous, wicked group. For example,
it seems to me that we are commanded to read the Book of
Mormon daily. If you were truly studying it, then you
wouldn't be studying Paganism. The signs of falling from the
truth are evident in every person I've seen fall away.
Gerald


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/25/92        10:41 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/25 10:34 AM

TO:      GERALD SMITH   (CRPV57A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Proclus, isn't the message of Mormonism 'religious
tolerance'? I brought this up to another person on the board
and he said my point of 'intolerance' was 'mute' (moot). I
think not. But it seems that some are meant to practice free
agency, while others are not. Huh?

I find your posts interesting. Keep 'em coming!   Steph


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/27/92         8:58 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       CRPV57A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/27/1992


Gerald

First of all, who is it that you accusing of "professing to
be Latter-Day Saints, and try bringing the philosophies of
men into it."   Also, you missed the point again.  I am not
saying that the world isn't black and white.  I am only
saying that there is not much you can do with that
information.  In other words, it's a trivial observation.
It is a given that if if you take anything as a whole, and
sum up all the goods and bads, that it will either have more
goods or more bads.  Big Deal.  This dichotomous viewpoint
is often taken to an inordinate extreme in the Church.  If
everything is really all or nothing, good or bad, true or
false,  then we would all be either gods or devils.
Decisions would be ever so easy.  And, we would all go
either to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom or
outer darkness.
            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The fact is that the things and people on this earth contain
some truth some falsehood, some good some bad.  We are all
at different stages of our progression.  What leads to God
for you, might lead away from God for me.  When you reach
the tree, it's time to let go of the iron rod.  It is
unfortunate that so many statements were made last
conference that seem to discourage thinking.  I am still
waiting for someone to explain THAT to me.

Your statements about evil practices and human sacrifice
show that you know nothing about modern paganistic practices
like those of the Wiccans.  If it weren't for this lack of
sophistication, your argument would be viewed as a clever
ploy to keep people from facing the implications of these
Mormon/Wiccan parallels.

This is supported by the character attacks which you have
employed against me.  I seem to be neglecting the Book of
Mormon, and studying apostasy, idolatry, and wickedness
instead.  All of this is irrelevant to the issues that I
have raised.  I also seem to be falling away.  Too bad
Gerald, I have bungee cords!

weeeeaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!?!

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/27/92         9:02 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       KBHD86A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/27/1992


Steph

Thanx!  I am glad to know that SOMEONE is reading my posts,
even if it is a bac/anti (just kidding!).  You know, with
all the labels and intolerance flying around this topic it
is a wonder that we can discuss anything!
                                    >>>>>>>>>>>
missed you at the coven meeting!

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/27/92         9:33 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       ALL
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/27/1992


The next parallel with Mormonism in this ritual motif is
something which I have called the death trial, for want of a
better word.  Adam and Eve were told flatly that they would
die if they took the fruit.  This is true for the biblical
account as well as every other version which I have read.
In some of the less respectable masonic lodges the initiate
is blindfolded and led through some dizzying circumbulations
about the alter and then he is dumped in a well!   Wiccan
variations on this theme vary widely also.  "The covener
might be asked to find her way on an unknown path.  She
might have to find her way by scent and sound and finally
let go of her fear and walk trustingly into the waves, where
protective hands will pull her back."  One initiate was told
to sit and meditate quietly while a plaster mask was made of
his face.     p.162

The Mormon rite does not have some of the intensity of the
other traditions in the realm of this initial shock and
transition. (They make up for it elsewhere as we shall see!)
This may be because of the high importance that is placed on
getting the work done.  Some practice the ritual to increase
speed and get more ordinances done.  Great importance
is often placed on this.  Futhermore, these are not merely
ritual initiations.  Mormons believe that they are doing the
work for their ancestors.  An endowed and sealed Mormon has
linked himself with his grandfathers and added to the family
of God.     D&C132

   hi grandpa!                 proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:29 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/29 11:07 AM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Andy

I think you're right.  It is interesting how Steph picked up
on it.  Christ is being sent to the cross every day.  Maybe
when we learn a little tolerance He will move us to the next
level.
         beheaded         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:30 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/28  7:37 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Sorry about the meeting! I lost a little weight and had to
have my garment altered!



                       Happy New Year,
                        Spiral Steph


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:31 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/28 11:11 AM

TO:      STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Spiral

I was thinking we could move our meetings over to this board
in a subject called THE COVEN.  It would be a great place
for Mormon Pagans to discuss the active practice and
philosophical and doctrinal issues of this religion.  Very
on topic, if you know what I mean.  Melissa suggested
PAGAN WARD as the subject heading.  This would be great for
those unfortunate people who do not attend a ward of their
own.  It would be a kind of electronic ward.  We could
disband the UnWard and make Andy our Bishop.  Better yet,
let's make Melissa our Bishop!  What a merry sacrament!

           galaxy

               proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:32 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/28  7:15 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Climactic idea, my dear Proclus! Let 'er rip! Can't wait to
see what y'all conjure up.......


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:32 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/29  7:49 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Mike,
   I second your nomination of Melissa W.
   It'll give me another chance to evade irresponsibility.

                                   \/
                                   /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:33 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/29 11:07 AM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Andy

OOOOOOOOOOOOOh I wish I had a chance to evade
responsibility!  Sounds fun.
                            proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:38 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/29  7:30 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Hey Mike,
          What's a Pagan Mormon?

                        Pardon my stupidity!

                                  Kim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:41 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/29  8:32 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE MULLANEY   (MBFX03A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

A Pagan Mormon must be like a Jack Mormon, you know, like a
seagull who won't eat crickets.

Grammie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:42 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/29  8:54 PM

TO:      BONNIE MULLANEY   (MBFX03A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Grammie

Eat a beetle, gain immortality.  Eat a cricket, hurl in the
lake.

     You decide!
                proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92         9:44 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/29  8:04 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    KIM BOWER   (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Mike,
    Yes, I definetly want to know more about Pagan
Mormonism. Sounds fascinating.

                              Kim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/29/92        10:08 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       BRPG31B
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/29/1992


That's the BIG question and I have enough info on it to
boggle anyone's brain.  Just hang around here for a while.
I try and post more info every few days.

All too often people get the impression that Mormonism is a
closed system with no room for creativity or free thought.
We are often told that "this is the only true church, and
that other religions are irrelevant to 'good' LDS folks."
This idea is put forward by well meaning, but misguided
individuals who think that they are somehow doing the Church
a favor by promoting it. History and comparative religion
can add depth to our gospel understanding.  Now, I am sure
that you will agree with me that many members are among the
sweetest people imaginable. No problem there.

There are plenty of different models for explaining the
pagan parallels with Mormonism.  The canned apostasy model
just doesn't cut it.  For example, it doesn't explain the
fact that new mormonish groups arise from time to time,
isolated from Mormonism.

There are a lot of former Mormons in pagan, wiccan, and
occult circles.  Most of us around here want to stay
attached to Mormonism though.


     proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/30/92         8:58 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/30  7:36 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GERALD SMITH   (CRPV57A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

As to your thought that thinking was discouraged in the last
general conference, I disagree. We were encouraged to seek
out the truth. If any of us pray with sincerity, we can know
that the General Authorities are prophets, seers and
revelators. When they bring out a suggestion or commandment,
I pray about it. I invariably receive the witness that they
are correct, but it is not thought control. You are sounding
like Korihor. He also stated that the people were being
brainwashed by the priesthood. My, but I fear for your
salvation! As for black and white. There is black and white.
Most of us just haven't reached the point of wanting to
accept that idea. It is easier to live in a world of grays
than one where sin is sin and righteousness is
righteousness. Yes, each of us is on a different level of
growth (or apostasy), but if we are truly humble and seek
after God's will, we have no excuse to live in gray areas to
the level that we have found certain truths. If we know that
something is a sin, then we are accountable for it whether
we keep that commandment or not. We cannot escape the
consequences. If we do not know a commandment, then it is
not placed upon our shoulders as a consequence. A sin is a
sin is a sin. You cannot escape it. God cannot look upon any
sin with the least amount of allowance. Fortunately there is
repentance for those who humble themselves, change their
ways, and follow the prophets. Any other path leads away
from God. (Moroni 7).  Don't be deceived by the lies of
humanism (which encompasses paganism). All of the
rationalizations used by apostates are in the Book of
Mormon and Bible. Your ideals are not new. Elijah fought the
gods of paganism in his day. Korihor used many of the same
stories and excuses that you have used to rationalize away
your venturings into apostasy. It amazes me how lacking in
understanding and wisdom people are that try to rationalize
their lies away. I know that I do it almost every time that
I speed. But the difference between you and me, is that I
know that I need to repent and obey the laws of God better
than I currently do.
I hope that others read this, so that they are not deceived
and led away into paths of darkness.
Gerald


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/30/92         8:19 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/30  9:21 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GERALD SMITH   (CRPV57A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

I realize that no one is perfect. But that is no excuse to
seek after strange gods which are not gods. The key is to be
striving towards perfection. If you are changing the gospel
into your own private interpretation with the philosophies
of men mingled in, then enjoy yourself. But the question of
all ages has been and is: Who is the true prophet of God,
and are we following his counsel. I can't recall where any
of the prophets from Adam down to Ezra Taft Benson have
mentioned the wonders and greatness of Wiccan Paganism. So
don't insult my intelligence by stating that there are
corrollaries. As I stated before, Satan counterfeits all of
God's works. If you wish to live in a counterfeit to the
truth, that is your right. Do me the favor though, don't try
whitewashing your apostasy as something that is acceptable.
It is as acceptable as any other humanist theory extant in
the world today. Just because the homosexuals have a large
following and are gaining popularity today, doesn't mean
that what they do doesn't reek with sin. And the same
applies to anyone who adds to or takes away from the words
of God, as delivered by his duly ordained prophets. You
haven't found the tree of life. If you did, you would have
faithfully followed and still follow the full word of God.
You wouldn't go experimenting down dangerous and demented
paths of darkness. However, I give you your right to worship
as you please. Just don't insult me and the others on this
board by pretending to be a member in good standing. I have
no doubt that if you shared your beliefs with your bishop,
he would have your recommend in a moment. You have your
freedom to live as you choose, I do this primarily to help
others who may fall into your trap. Satan does weave a
cunning and careful trap and then leads his children
carefully down to hell. (That's in the Book of Mormon also).
I do hope that you'll repent and turn from the error and
into the light. I don't have to apologize for teaching the
Book of Mormon and the prophets. You have no solid basis for
your teaching, except that you have been deceived by the
great deceiver. I shall pray for you.
Gerald


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/30/92         8:44 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       CRPV57A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     12/30/1992


Gerald

I read the Book of Mormon.  I also read Alma 30.  I am
nothing like Korihor.  I did not say that the people are
being brainwashed by the priesthood.  Would you like me to
be struck dumb, like Korihor?  This is yet another example
of your evading the issues by impugning my personal
righteousness, of which you know NOTHING.

What does your diatribe about sin and consequences have to
do with the discussion at hand?  Shame on you for using the
name of Elijah to throw dirt on our discussion of our sacred
ordinances.

Your position, of which you have said hardly a word, seems
to be that the wiccan parallels with Mormonism are a
deception of Satan.  What about the many parallels we find
in other areas, such as; Masonry, greek and egyptian
religion, gnosticism, and the people of the Dead Sea
Scrolls. Are these also the deceptions of Satan.  If so, why
does Mormonism have so many parallels with the deceptions of
Satan.  Does your vaunted one dimensional, black and white
reasoning really suffice to explain all of these
connections?

Maybe so. If we are to make that determination, we must
study it out in our minds, compare alternative explanations,
get some advice from others, and take it to the Lord.  After
we have exercised our minds, God will give us the answer. >>
You won't find it in the handbook though.  These are
uncharted waters.  Let's go exploring.

uncharacteristic

proclus


____________________________________________

Steph

The next step in the Mormon/Wiccan ritual cycle is the ritual washing.  For Wiccans, this takes place in traditional Mormon fashion, that is, in a bathtub.  The Mormon ritual has become more austere over the years in this area, (a tub is no longer used) but all the essentials are still there (we hope!).  It is interesting that the Wiccans have chosen to elaborate the tub and the water.  The tub is charged with salt.  Oil and herbs are added.  On the side are incense and candles.  A new name is then chosen.  This is the name by which the covener will be known within the working group.  In Mormonism, the name is assigned and kept virtually secret.

All of this is completely isomorphous with ancient coronation rites.  It is said that King David was anointed in a similar fashion.  The gnostics also had a similar practice.  They called it unction and equated it with redemption.  It gets kind of confusing at this point though because there are actual TWO separate anointings in this ritual cycle...

more later

proclus 


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/31/92         5:29 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/31  3:47 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GERALD SMITH   (CRPV57A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

I have studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, read the Nag Hammadi
(the Gnostic writings) and pondered the writings of the
Egyptians, Incas, Aztecs, Zoroastrianism, Zen, Buddhism,
Hinduism and etc.
Many of the "true" similarities involved in most of these
are only because the truth has drifted down from generations
past. Josephus tells us that the Egyptians and Chaldeans
learned their knowledge of math and the "celestial sciences"
from Abraham. Whether they kept that knowledge pure, or
allowed Satan to corrupt it is another story. My belief is
that they were not true to the teachings of the prophets and
their beliefs in superstition and myths led them to worship
the "gods" of nature, instead of the God of Heaven and
Earth. Yes, I believe you when you state that there are
similarities between the pagan rites of passage and that of
the temple. But I still insist on saying that they are a
corruption put in place by Satan.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, and many other writings contain truths
which have been kept through the ages. They are not perfect
in their teachings, I am sure. However, they are a closer
lot of ancient literature to the truth than paganism.
Voodoo also claims to be a "Christian" creation. In fact, I
have a page from a South American spiritualist book.
However, incantations and chants do not a Christian make,
even when using Catholic holy water. So it is with paganism.
It is not worth studying, even as an interest, because there
is so much knowledge and information of a higher sort out
there to be had. I would do better studying the beliefs of
other Christian religions for their "truth." (and I have,
prior to joining this Church.
As for "diatribe," I stand for the greatest truths. I do not
wish for people who may be weaker than yourself to fall into
paths of mists and darkness. As for yourself, believe what
you may, but I also have a right, nay, an obligation to
publish what I believe to be truth; and that truth is what
comes from the mouths and writings of true prophets of God.
Have a nice day.
GeraldPagan Boots 2
=============
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/31/92         5:34 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/31  7:44 AM

TO:      STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Steph,
   Mormons have a heck of a lot of free agency, at least
according to the prophets of the pre-correlation
dispensation.
   The problem is that it is a very scary proposition to
actually USE this freedom.  So many LDS hide behind excuses
and imagined prohibitions.  This makes for a very warm and
comfy feeling in the soul.
   It also often precludes real spiritual growth.

                                          \/ St Andrew the
                                          /\ cold & prickly.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/31/92         5:34 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/31 12:10 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Andy, some of the 'stuff' that is being and about to be
posted...do the majority of Mormons know about it?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/31/92         5:36 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/31  7:40 AM

TO:      STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Steph

The next step in the Mormon/Wiccan ritual cycle is the
ritual washing.  For Wiccans, this takes place in
traditional Mormon fashion, that is, in a bathtub.  The
Mormon ritual has become more austere over the years in this
area, (a tub is no longer used) but all the essentials are
still there (we hope!).  It is interesting that the Wiccans
have chosen to elaborate the tub and the water.  The tub is
charged with salt.  Oil and herbs are added.  On the side
are incense and candles.  A new name is then chosen.  This
is the name by which the covener will be known within the
working group.  In Mormonism, the name is assigned and kept
virtually secret.

All of this is completely isomorphous with ancient
coronation rites.  It is said that King David was anointed
in a similar fashion.  The gnostics also had a similar
practice.  They called it unction and equated it with
redemption.  It gets kind of confusing at this point though
because there are actual TWO separate anointings in this
ritual cycle...

more later

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/31/92         5:37 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/31 12:10 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Oooooo. Uh, how does this fit in with the Jewish cleansing
rites? I understand that the Wiccan rites have nothing to do
with baptism for redemption. Am I correct...if not..correct
me! If I'm getting ahead of the format here, just say so.
Some of this is new to me.
                               Steph


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         12/31/92         5:37 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/31  5:16 PM

TO:      STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Steph

I have not heard the word redemption mentioned in the Wiccan
teachings that I have studied thus far.  Starhawk does
mention rebirth and clensing in this connection.  It is a
ritual preparation for clothing in the sacred ritual garb,
another classic Mormon practice.   steamy bath   proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/01/93         9:13 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/01/1993


Andy

As you know, there are many things we could discuss in this
kind of subject.  I have been posting the parallels between
what Gerald has called the Wiccan/Mormon "rites of passage".
This is a huge body of material so I have been cutting it up
into little pieces and posting them in the order that they
appear in the respective rituals.


            intiatology

                       proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/01/93         9:15 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    12/31  6:17 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

All
Esoteric...... means beyond the understanding of an average
mind
I think all though modern so call Christians are often
embarrassed by the fact, it is a matter of historical record
that esoteric teaching have been part of the orthodox
Christian practice in many other times and places. >>>>>>>>
Modern Christians might reject the views of Clement, Basil,
Cyril, Ambrose, Chrysostom, and other Fathers, and even
accuse them of being influenced by the pagan mysteries- but
normally they don't accuse them of being pagans. And if an
esoteric teaching is going to be tolerated in the orthodox
church of the third, fourth, and fifth centuries, there is
no reason it cant be tolerated in the modern Latter-day
Saints. My point is this: If objective scholars can conclude
that the New Testament supports an esoteric teaching in
Paul; if the new Testament explicitly states that Corinthian
Christians practiced vicarious baptism for the dead; >>>>
if Saint Clement of Alexandria believed that an esoteric
teaching of the Lord was part of Christianity, and Clement
himself had been initiated into it; if Saint Basil can
emphatically state that the most sacred Christians teachings
were never written down from the Apostles; if Saint Cyril of
Jerusalem could perform secret rituals and in the church of
the Holy Sepulchre instruct his initiates on the esoteric
meanings of those rituals; then there is no case for
excluding the Latter-day Saints from Christendom simply
because we believe in an esoteric teaching....
You'll have to come up with a better excuse than that..ykwim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/01/93         9:20 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/01  7:20 AM

TO:      DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Dino,

   Wow.  I am floored and stunned.  What an absolutely,
positively, totally fabulous note.

   May I quote you?????                        \/
                                               /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/01/93         9:20 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/01  7:26 AM

TO:      DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
FROM:    STEVEN CUMBER   (XSJM17A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Dino,
     My studies of Eastern Christendom still lack some
depth.  I am interested by your statements about esoteric
teachings of the Orthodox "Fathers".  Could you please
provide some references to enhance my study?  They would be
most appreciated.
    BTW, saw your Merry Christmas post on the Fundamentalist
BB:  brave soul (or is it masochistic soul?)  If you don't
take them too seriously, you can have some fun with them.

                     Happy New Year

                                      Steve


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/01/93         2:52 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FRVD58A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/01/1993


Dino

I second Andy's BRAVO!  No one doubts that Mormonism has
been highly influenced by Xtianity, that it contains many of
the essential Xtian doctrines and practices.  The question
of the definition of Mormonism is being dealt with in ARE
MORMONS CHRISTIAN?.  Such one dimensional "is v. isn't"
debates are not part of what we are trying to discuss here
(except Gerald maybe, Hi Gerald!).  As your post so
eloquently illustrates, the lines between Xtianity,
Mormonism, and Paganism are not all that well defined.  They
share some very important common elements.

I have been posting information on a very specific set of
parallels between Mormonism and a very modern pagan
tradition.  Many aspects of the Mormon rite and the Wiccan
initiation ceremonies are virtually interchangeable  (SPIRAL
DANCE by Starhawk is my primary source for Wiccan teachings
and practices).  They also share in the sequential order of
their presentation to the initiate.  I've been trying to
adhere to that order as well.

This is only a very thin slice of the Wiccan material with
Mormon correlations.  We have already discussed much of it
in previous subjects.  I am not trying to limit the scope of
the discussion though.  We can review some of the prayer
circle material for those who have not yet heard it.  There
are also many more generic parallels in the areas of
teachings and doctrines of other pagan traditions.  These
include the anthropomorphic deities, the stellar teachings
(kolob v. whatever), Achilles shield, or whatever.  You
decide.  There is really a wealth of material and I am sure
there are many who could contribute to the obvious breadth
encompassed by the title of our subject, PAGAN BOOTS.

Dino, tell me more.  My ears are open.  Can you give some
more details about the implication of early church fathers
with the pagan mysteries?  How were they implicated?
Exactly which initiatory traditions are you talking about?
THAT sounds fascinating.  Maybe Steph has something to say
about this as well.

I would also like to hear your opinion of the conflict
between esotericism and elitism.  Maybe if Melissa is
listening, she has something to say about that.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/01/93         2:53 PM


proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         1:55 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/02  2:52 PM

TO:      STEVEN CUMBER   (XSJM17A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Steven. I didnt find A BOOK! I have several books in my
personal library some dating back to 1830,1911,1992 To list
all of them wouldnt be fair it would takeme to long and I
would spend to much time not writing on the meat of the
subject...I will say I will quote the source as often as I
can...Heck fire I have over 13 books just on the Christian
church and the gospel...So dont be upset if I dont list them
all ...It takes time for me to research plus I spent to much
time writing the notes because I am dyslexic and I am
forever checking bdbdbdbdbdbdbbdbdb ect Soooo....Dont over
load me with writing so much...... I am still a business
women with two business to run... I play on this computer
between times and sometimes I miss to much to keep up on
subject much less 3 or 4 of them...Better time management I
guess.. Sooooo I dont have anything to hide Ill give you
source as much as I can  OK!.......Heck fire it takes me so
long to study I am beginning to wonder where I am spending
to much time and where I am not...... ykwim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         7:32 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/02  7:05 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Michael..Thank you for your note but this is not my favorite
subject and I find it a bit heavy handed when it comes to
Mormonism.....I will say that I think your understanding of
Xtianity and my understanding of Esoteric Teachings maybe
two different things....An esoteric teaching is any teaching
that is held back from the general public circulation, a
teaching not available to everyone but reserved for the ...>
initiate. In the LDS context this also involves vicarious
ordinance for the dead. Now the question before us is NOT
whether the specific LDS esoteric teaching is the right one,
but whether Christianity ever had any kind of an esoteric
teaching at all. For if it did, then it is a Christian
phenomenon- whether the modern denominations have it correct
or not. I think another issue by those who employ the
doctrinal exclusion involves the esoteric teachings of LDS
temple worship..We who received this teaching are under a
covenant obligation not to discuss the details of the LDS
temple and its ordinances...And because I to have made this
covenant I WILL IN NO WAY DISCUSS OUR TEMPLE ORDINANCES with
anyone...You see if I am attack on this subject it is
similar to debating a monk under a vow of silence....
NOW !  If you choose to discuss this matter with me
(Esteric Teachings in the NEW TESTAMENT)  it will be more
like a one way conversation with me stating some facts of
the Esoteric Teaching in the New Testament rather than
discussing esoteric teachings in the LDS church......
So on that base alone I will be happy to share.....
Other wise I am sure you will be disappointed.....


RODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         1:56 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/02  4:49 PM

TO:      DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

#1...... Esoteric Teaching in the Christian Church
Let's begin with the Apostle Paul, who wrote in his First
Epistle to the Corinthians: Howbeit we speak wisdom among
them that are perfect: yet not wisdom of this world, nor of
the princes of this world, that come to nought: but we speak
the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom,
which God ordained before the world unto Glory   >>>>>source
(1 Corinthians 2:6-7). The greek word translated "perfect"
in verse 6 is teleios, and besides "perfect" it also means
"mature" and "initiated" ...See the standard scholarly
Greek-English lexicon, William Arndt and F.Wilbur Gingrich,
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early
Christian Literature ( Chicago: University of Chicago Press,
1957), pp 816-17. There is a consensus among scholars that
"perfect" is not the right nuance. The Revised Standard
Version render teleios here as "mature"; Bo Frid opts for
"initiated" ( in New Testament Studies 31 {1985] : 608).
So for Paul there is a hidden wisdom communicated not to the
masses but only to those who are mature. By definition this
is an Esoteric Teaching, and esotertic teaching
communicated, Paul says, "in a mystery." The Greek word
translated "mystery" is musterion, and it means "a mystory,"
"a secret," "a secret rite," or "a secret teaching." See
Arndt and Gingrich, Greek-English Lexicon, pp. 531-32. The
New International Version renders musterion as "secret
wisdom." Now we have in the New Testament a hidden wisdom
communicated by means of a secret rite (musterion) only
those who are mature or initiated. I think even if there
were no other evidence, this passage alone would prove the
existence of an esoteric teaching in earliest Christianity.
"Paul reveals here almost certainly that he knew an esoteric
Christian apocalyptic-wisdom teaching which he carefully
guarded from immature Christians...
source.....Robin Scroggs, "Paul: SOPHOS and PNEUMATIKOS,
"New Testament Studies 14 (1967\68) :54.
Now I believe weather Scroggs is right or wrong, this is a
matter of interpreting phenomenon within the Christian
tradition, not extraneous to it.
Some commentators on these verses have tried to argue that
the public Christian proclamation itself was the hidden >>
wisdom, but that argument is untenable for two reasons.
First, the Christian proclamation was not hidden or reserved
only for the mature; it was preached  "upon the housetops."
Second while the Corinthian Saints have already heard the
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         1:56 PM

Christian proclamation and been converted and baptized, Paul
felt that they still were not mature enough for the "meat"
of the gospel. (This is like the reason we do not have our
converts attend the Temple before they are mature to
understand the meat of the gospel) anyway Therefore the two
levels of teachings, the public and the hidden, cannot be
equivalent." And I, brethren could not speak unto you as >>>
unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in
Christ.I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for
hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet are ye
able." (1 Corinthians 3:1-2.) Now since the Corinthians were
already Christians , the eat which Paul continued to
withhold from them cannot have been yet public Christian
proclamation....source See Sroggs , "Paul ," p.37: "The
distinction Paul's makes between his kerygma {public
preaching} and his sophia  {hidden wisdom} is thus too too
clear-cut to permit the conclusion that the content of the
sophia is the crucified Christ of the kerygma." #2 contuine


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         2:02 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/02  4:51 PM

TO:      DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

#2 ......Esoteric Teachings in the Christian Church


Now whatever it was, the fact that it was withheld from them
because they were not yet ready for it makes it by
definition an esoteric teaching.............
 More later in note  #3 .............................ykwim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         2:05 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/02  6:04 PM

TO:      DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
FROM:    MICHAEL GARRETT   (VJFG24A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Dino,
     The mystery was revealed in Paul's day. Romans 16:25
states, "Now to him who is able to establish you by my
gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to
the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but
NOW REVEALED and MADE KNOWN through the prophetic writings
by the command of the eternal God, so that all the nations
might believe and obey him-". (emphasis mine)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         2:05 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/03  8:18 AM

TO:      MICHAEL GARRETT   (VJFG24A)
FROM:    BRET BOTTGER   (SHSK79A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Dino Bingham...talking to himself.

A sure sign of paganism.

Why emphasize the mystical elements of our faith?  The
leadership obviously is packaging the church as a little
more mainstream these days.  Go with the SLC flow.   BADGER


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         2:12 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       SHSK79A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/03/1993


Bret

Why should we de-emphasis our esoteric teachings.  They are
a part of our religion.  Mormonism teaches that the real
goal of the gospel is to be endowed and have our families
sealed to us forever.  This is the only way to become like
the Mormon God.    atwixt the pillars         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         7:00 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FRVD58A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/03/1993


ykwim

I know what you mean about spending time in the Mormon
subjects.  I'm a grad student and is difficult to strike the
balance of it with school and family.  Now that this subject
seems to be picking up, I've had to let ABORT CONTENTION go.
Posts like yours make it worth it though.  The time that I
have been able to spend in discussions like these has moved
my testimony into a more "mature" level.  I see you provoked
a response from MIKE+++.

As near as I have been able to tell, initiations have played
a central role in virtually every religion that came out of
the mediterranean basin.  Xtianity is no exception.  There
are some common themes, however, little is known about the
actual rites.  It is not surprising that the initiates had
very little to say about them.  John and Paul's remarks are
doubly interesting since they mirror the kind of oblique
language that was used in connection with the secret
initiations of the pagan religions.  They would talk around
about the subject, never seeming to come to the point.  This
is one of the things that makes the modern practices
interesting.     (see below)

Another problem in the study of these ancient rituals is
that they were often part of what we might call new
dispensations.  Confusion can easily arise between the new
and the old teachings.  For example, Isis had been worshiped
for centuries.  Later, the Isis cult formed.  Her religion
was seen as the fulfillment of Egyptian religion.  The
worship of Osiris was part of the old aeon.  His rites were
no longer efficacious.  The situation was similar in the
early Christian communities.  They had no more need for the
old rites at the Jerusalem temple.  Christ had revealed the
hidden mystery of the Jewish rites.  He brought a new
dispensation.  The teachings of this new dispensation could
not be fully comprehended without the new initiated
knowledge, at least according to Paul and John.

We don't face these problems with the modern esoteric
traditions, like Mormonism, The Golden Dawn, and Wicca.
Many of them have published their rituals and we can study
and compare them.  There is vastly more Golden Dawn material
than Wiccan.  It is also rather opaque.  I may post some of
it at a future time.  But, it is now all too easy to compare
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         7:00 PM

the Mormon and Wiccan rites.

In other words, this is the age of information.  Ritual
practice is extremely relevant to Mormonism.  You have shown
effectively that esotericism was a part of early Christian
practice, and by extension Mormonism.  If you want to study
ritual practice, you must consult modern practices.  Modern
rites, like those of Mormonism and Wicca are the only ones
that we know anything about.

          bull's blood

                      proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/03/93         7:11 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       ALL
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/03/1993


After the ritual washing, the initiate is clothed in the
ritual garb.  In the Wiccan rite, cords take the place of
the the robes of Mormonism.  A sponsor assists the new
covener with the cords.  She is bound by a thin cotton cord
at the wrists and the ankles.  Each of these bindings carry
a specific significance.  The sponsor then asks for the
initiates new name and leads her to the circle.    proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         9:08 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/04  7:33 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Michael... Sorry for the short note for now BUT my weekend
is long gone....Back to work tomorrow... Would you please
tell me what you know about Wicca & Golden Dawn.... short
story please....I must say I dont know as much as you do and
I could be mixing things up a bit.....Also I dont know much
about you as a person tell us about you would you? I am sure
you have read my notes and know who I am ect......ykwim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         9:14 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FRVD58A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/04/1993


ykwim

I'm Mormon with a capital MO, that's LSD.  My ancestors were
organized by Bigamy Young to sell liquor to the gold
rushers.  Just kidding!  Give me a few days to incorporate a
little GD intro into my blurb.   Thanx.
       traffic              proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         9:17 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/04  7:28 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DENNIS LONG SR   (DKCN71A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

BITE YOUR TOUNGUE MISTER, AND I THINK YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         9:19 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       DKCN71A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/04/1993


Dennis

Could you repeat that?  My ears were open, but someone bit
them.  WOW!

          ferengi
                  proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         6:38 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/04  2:31 PM

TO:      DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

#3......Esoteric Teachings in the Christian Church
In the Second Epistle to the Corinthians, Paul refers to
secret teachings he received by revelation when he was
caught up to the third heaven-"how that he was caught up
into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which is not
lawful for a man to utter" (2 Corinthians 12:4)....Now what
Paul learned on this occasion was certainly esoteric, and >>
I think we may assume that not all Christians have received
it, Paul felt obliged to keep these things SECRET, no doubt
"because they are too SACRED" to be written or told........
source: This is the opinion of John Knox and the New Oxford
Annotated Bible (New York:Oxford University Press 1973),
p.1407.........LDS source .....Teachings of The Prophet
Joseph Smith 1843-44 304:7... Paul ascended into the third
heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds
of Jacob's ladder---305 1 the telestial, the terrestrial,
and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and
heard things which were not lawful for him to utter >>>>>>>>
(Joseph Smith speaking here...>>>>) I could explain a
hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the
kingdom manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted,
and were the people prepare to receive them...
Mormon Doctrine under the subject Transfiguration. We read
By the power of the Holy Ghost many prophets have been
transfigured so as to stand in the presence of God to view
the vision of eternity... Speaking of such an occasion in
his life, Moses recorded: "Now mine own eyes have beheld
God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for I was
transfigured before him." (Moses 1:11; D. & C. 76:11.....
On another occasion, when Moses came down off the mount,
having communed with the Lord for 40 days and nights, "the
skin of his face shone,"so that he had to "put a vail on his
face" as he talked with the children of Israel............>
(Ex.34:29-35)..Similarly, when the Three Nephites "were
caught up into the heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable
things,"they were transfigured.":Whether they were in the
body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did
seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they
were change from this body of flesh into an immortal state,
that they could behold the things of God."(3 Ne 28:13-17) >>
Paul has the similar experience(2 Cor.12:1-4), here is where
it tells of diversities of pngts (Esoteric) Joseph Smith and
Sidney Rigdon has similar experience (D & C 76; Teachings
p.107.) In the millennial Messiah under the subject 5 False
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         6:39 PM

Worship Abounds Before His Coming v2 It tells how Enoch "was
high and lifted up even in the bosom of the Father, and of
the Son of Man," and he beheld marvelous visions beyond
anything that the mind of man can conceive. He saw the
spirits that God had created, the nations of mortal men, the
coming of Christ and his crucifixion, the Second Coming of
the Son of Man, the millennial era, and many things that >>>
can not be written... The Esoteric Teaching in the Christian
Church of old are many and many or practice today in Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint....The brother of Jared
talked for three hours at one time with the Lord and learned
many of the wonders of eternity, which are so far beyond our
mortal comprehension that the Lord has not permitted them to
be translated in our day (Eather 2-4). So again we see there
are records in the scriptures that speak of Esoteric
Teachings. My next note will speak on 1 Corinthians, where
Paul also refers to an early Christian practice of vicarious
baptism for the dead...........  Look for note #4......ykwim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         6:41 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/04  3:41 PM

TO:      MICHAEL GARRETT   (VJFG24A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Michael
about Romons 16:25....Read 1 Thes 3:2; Eph 3:4; Col.1:26;
25-26;
and as for our scriptures read D & C 6:7 (7-11);
42:65 (61-65); 121:27 (25-27).
and then tell me what you think about the subject OK!
.........................................             ykwim


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93         6:42 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/04  1:02 PM

TO:      DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

ykwim

I'm Mormon with a capital MO, that's LSD.  My ancestors were
organized by Bigamy Young to sell liquor to the gold
rushers.  Just kidding!  Give me a few days to incorporate a
little GD intro into my blurb.   Thanx.
       traffic              proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/04/93        11:35 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/04 10:39 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Mike,
   Dennis appears to have a bone to pick with you.  Too bad.

   I am interested in this whole concept of cords and
binding.  Perhaps we should let our prodigoid friends know
that at least one of the cords mentioned in the Wiccan
initiation is imbued with a specific meaning.
   "She ties the cord also around one ankle, saying 'neither
bound nor free,' recognizing that entrance to the Craft is a
free choice, but that once a person steps on the path, they
have set in motion currents that will impel them forward."
   Very Mormonish.

   The circle formed by the Wiccans in their worship {so
much like the temple prayer circle} may also be likened to a
cord.  Masons of higher degrees also form a circle, called
the "Chain of Union."  It symbolizes a bond of brotherhood.
   And speaking of Masons and cords, the frontispiece of the
NEW ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FREEMASONRY shows a picture of A.E.
Waite with a very conspicuous cord tied around his torso.
   Interesting, especially when you consider the origins of
the temple ceremony.

   More on cords and masonry: A quick thumbing through
DUNCAN'S RITUAL shows a candidate duriPagan Boots 3
=============
ng various stages of
initiation sporting a bound cord about his neck, then right
shoulder, then waist.  If I get some time {ha, ha} I may
read the text and see what meanings are attributed to this.
   In the mean time, let us remind Dennis that a man is
saved no faster than he gets knowledge {J. Smith Jr} and
what better knowledge is there to gain than knowledge that
deals with the most valuable rituals of Mormonism?

                                              \/ Andrew,
                                              /\ half-hitch.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/05/93         7:21 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FRVD58A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/05/1993


Dino

I've been studying High Magickal practices like those of the
Golden Dawn for years. My favorite authors in this
connection include, but are not limited to Crowley, Wilson,
Leary, Godwin, Regardie, and Hyatt. Last summer Wiccadom
caught my attention in a big way (trust me, that's an
understatement!), thanx to St. Andrew and some great Ladies
like Lucinda over on the Wicca board.  That's when we
decided that there "really are" some similarities between
Witchcraft and Mormonism that need to be addressed.

Honestly, I'd been searching for connections like these ever
since '85.  I even did an anthropology project on it.  I
really got toasted that time.  You see, it is actually quite
easy to demonstrate similarities between Mormonism and
Paganism.  That's been my modus operandi ever since I came
to Prodigy.  We can certainly do some more of that.  But no
one had been able to document connections between Mormonism
and the archetypal modern pagan tradition, Wicca.

Finally, last summer it started to happen.  I read, the
Toscano's breakthrough book, STRANGERS IN PARADOX.  In
chapter 16, A Kingdom of Priestesses, they describe what the
prayer circle group was like at the time that Joseph
instituted the practice.  There is much that I could say
about this on another occasion.  Next on my stack was THE
SPIRAL DANCE.  It became immediately obvious that the
historical prayer circle group had many of the essential
qualities of the modern witch coven.  Many night's were
spent feverishly exchanging correspondence with St. Andrew.
We were unsure whether we were ready to bring it to light.
We dared suppose that we had found space for the Goddess in
Mormon ritual.  We were amazed that our view of the Church
had been transformed and that this transformation revolved
around the prayer circle.

Perhaps, we should not have been surprised.  Max Pulver has
observed that any inquiry into this topic juxtaposes us into
a "strange space, a strange world - unlike ours - a world
above that opens before us when we enter into the round
dance of the disciples, led by Jesus."  Sadly, the intimacy
of this kind of group work is no longer available to Church
Members.  The current practice is hardly a shadow of what
Joseph intended.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/05/93         7:21 PM


Still, I am not as forlorn as the Toscanos.  We are planting
the seeds.  Our very discussion evokes a dizzy ritual.  We
draw closer, reaching out in a virtual embrace.

the sacred dance            proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/05/93         7:26 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/05/1993


Andy

Very nice post!  I've got to get a DUNCAN'S.  You and
Melissa have given the most wonderful quotes and examples
from that book.  Is it significant that all of these
traditions attribute meanings to the various knots and ties.
Only in Mormonism is the interpretation left to the
initiate.  It now becomes obvious that knots and ties are
connected with oaths and penalties.

The scriptures do not leave us unguided with respect to
cords though.  Probably, the most significant reference is 2
Ne 26:22;

"And there are also secret combinations, even as in the
times of old, according to the combinations of the devil,
for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder
of murder, and works of darkness, yea, and he leadeth them
by the neck with a flaxen (white or light?) cord, until he
bindeth them with his strong cords forever."

Many have seen in these words a reference to freemasonry.  I
think that our postings have demonstrated that the case is
not so clear cut.  Many traditions use bows and bindings in
their rituals, including Mormonism.  Cords are also
associated with temples in the scriptures  (Is 54:2, Jn
2:15).  Cords are used to invade cities (Josh 2:15, Al
62:21-23) and are associated with sin and death (Pro 5:22,
D&C 121,44{!}).  In the Book of Mormon cords are used to
bind the righteous so that the wicked may carry out their
evil deeds (1Ne 7:16, 18:11, Al 14:4-26).

Solomon's Knot

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/06/93         9:01 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/06  8:05 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DINO BINGHAM   (FRVD58A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Well like I said I know little of Wicca and not to be unkind
with your sharing but I dont care to know much about them at
all.I feel there is a greater gulf between the two subjects
on the spiritual side than can ever be reviled in a public
understanding. My real and only goal in this subject was to
show that there is and was Esoteric teachings in the
Christian church and to help put it into balance with today.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true and
I hope you can understand I am not trying to be rude but
Wicca is just a imitation of the true gospel of Jesus
Christ...As far as being surprised that the adversary can
try to duplicate portions of the true gospel I AM NOT!..He
has always wanted what Christ has.So at this point I do feel
that maybe we are running in two different directions with
my posting on Pagan Boots...After all a pagan is one who is
neither a Christian, a Jew, nor a Mosleum and a witch is a
person who practices sorcery, so they say and I think we LDS
are Christians.Today, yesterday, and always know matter how
others try to draw a line between Pagan\Wacca\Mormonism
I do believe we are the true church of Jesus Christ and that
man will forever be searching to know the mind and will of
Heavenly Father and that the scriptures will be the best
source of knowledge for them on this earth....
Anyway I think I will let you have this subject back and say
good luck in your search for knowledge....
May it keep you always on the path of righteousness....
                   Your friend and siter in Zion

                        Dino


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/06/93        10:15 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/06  9:22 AM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    JIM HEYWOOD   (HXWD16A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

 Andrew, any similarities (real or imagined) between "God's
Eternal Truths" and "Satan's Counterfeits" are simply there
because Satan will stop at nothing to deceive God's children
away from "truth & righteousness" and into his "lies &
worldliness." If I'm not mistaken, the goal of this subject
is to show that the church is false because it in some ways
resembles or parallels certain "pagan" falsehoods. This is
exactly what Satan is banking on. Satan is not a bumbling
buffoon; on the contrary, he is wiley and crafty and knows
an infinite number of ways to (1) keep God's children from
the gospel and (2) lead the finders of it astray. Perceived
similarities like the ones written about here are the things
that our detracters think of as "juicy proofs" that the LDS
church is a fake. Wise sons and daughters of God will
recognize these things for what they are: Satan inspired
tools of deception to drag us very comfortably down to hell
where we can join him in his eternal miseries. The problem
is, not all are wise enough to see through the masquerades.
There are some that will, sadly, be caught in this snare and
be unable (or unwilling) to cast it aside for what it really
is: Satan's Big Lie. I wouldn't want to be any part of it.
 One notable exception on this subject has been Dino's very
informative disertations. I must say that she has given me
some new insights. May God guide each one of you in the
footsteps that you take in your pagan boots...
                                              ...Jim in CA


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/06/93        10:19 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FRVD58A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/06/1993


Dino

Don't underrate your contribution to the subject.  I feel
that your comments have been indispensable.  As I said to
Gerald, the Wiccan parallels may be a satanic deception.
This may even be a likely explanation from the standpoint of
Mormonism.  In fact, it is thought that ALL other churches,
Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Pagan, or whatever are a part of
"that great and abominable church" founded by Satan.  This
has never stopped Mormons from making comparative studies
with these other religions.

Now, I admit that the idea of Wiccan parallels seems absurd,
at least on the surface.  Who would have ever thought to
make the connection, especially with the modern Church's
impetus to court the mainstream.  Still, the corollaries
between Mormon and Wiccan thought and practice have now been
so thoroughly documented and on so many fronts that it is
impossible for many of us to ignore them.  Wicca too is fast
becoming a mainstream religion.

It is especially hard to ignore them, if you have an
interest in the development of ritual practices and their
relationship to Mormonism.  There is more work to be done.
No one knows why the parallels are there.  If we assume that
Satan did it, how did he do it.  What are the historical
connections, if any.  The scriptures do contribute to this
area of knowledge (see next thread and other posts), but I
wouldn't recommend that anyone interrupt their scripture
study to pursue it.  These points illustrate that this is
largely a technical exercise, and it is not surprising that
many people are not interested in it.  It may not be
essential to your salvation, but neither are can openers!

If you are leaving the subject, I am sad.  I understand
though that each of us must pursue our own agenda.  Dino, I
am confident about the results of your agenda.

Perfect love and perfect trust
                                          proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/06/93        10:22 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/05  7:04 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    DAN JENKINS   (MWRS12A)
SUBJECT: THE PRODIGY UN-WARD

Since we are not UNconstrained by the past we have a
UNfaltering challenge of UNraveling a new UNutterable
UNction....whew!



danny...UNcurbed


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/07/93         9:51 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/06  8:09 PM

TO:      JIM HEYWOOD   (HXWD16A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Jim,
   If I point out similarities between Mormonism and other
systems of belief, am I trying to undermine the church?
   If so, then one of the craftiest and most insideous
anti-mormons out there is Hugh Nibley.
   The rich heritage and ritual of Mormonism deserve to be
explored and studied, not swept under the carpet of the
church's correlation office, with a headstone erected above
it reading "Oh, it's not secret, its sacred.   And I can't
talk about it........"

                                              \/ Andrew
                                              /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/07/93         9:52 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/06  8:36 PM

TO:      DENNIS LONG SR   (DKCN71A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Hey Dennis,
   You would really like this book of mine, DUNCAN'S RITUAL.
I especially like the illustrations.  Some of them look REAL
FAMILIAR.
   "Know what I mean, Vern?"
                                    \/ Andrew, recieving
                                    /\ the Mason Word.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/07/93         9:52 AM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/07  9:26 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Mike,
   More on that rope used in "Satan's Counterfiet," Masonry.

   It is called the "cable-tow."  In the initiation to the
first degree it is worn about the neck.  If the candidate
does not submit to the manner and mode of initiation, it is
used to lead him out of the lodge, hoodwinked, so that he
will not have seen anything but can still be led.

   In the second degree the cable-tow is looped twice around
the right shoulder.  It signifies the initiate being "under
double tie to the fraternity."

   In the third degree the cable-tow is wrapped three times
about the torso.  It signifies that "duties and obligations
become more and more binding as I advance in Masonry."

   The ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FREEMASONY sheds no further light on
this device.  It may be worth noting that the examples cited
cover the first three degrees of Masonry...which is how far
Joseph Smith is known to have advanced in the craft.

   BTW, remember the cable-tow that A.E. Waite sports in the
drawing I mentioned previously?  I note that it consists of
two cords twisted to form a single rope.  It is wrapped
around him only once, and is tied with a square knot.  Do
you suppose there are any meanings here, or does my
immagination run away with me?         \/ Andrew, wrapped
                                       /\ around your finger


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/08/93         8:42 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       ALL
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/08/1993


In the next step in this ritual cycle the Wiccan initiate is
brought to the circle.  She is given a blood chilling
warning about the seriousness of what is about to take
place.  In Mormonism, the warning is the famous "God will
not be mocked" statements.  In the Wiccan rite this warning
highlights the unimaginable dance of opposites, birth and
death, dark and light, joy and pain, and the place beyond
normal human experience where the opposites meet and become
one.

The covener then gives the only password, "I enter the
circle in perfect love and perfect trust."  This is the
flipside of the Mormon injunction to leave the circle if
there are any ill feelings present.  The High Priestess then
kneels and gives the covener the "fivefold kiss";

"Blessed are your feet, that have brought you in these ways.
Blessed are your knees, that kneel at the sacred alter.
Blessed is your sex, without which we would not be.
Blessed are your breasts, formed in strength and beauty.
Blessed are your lips, which shall speak the sacred names."

This is the core of the ceremony.  I leave it as an exercise
for the reader to make the comparison to the pre-1991 Mormon
veil ritual and other aspects of the Mormon rite.  The
covener is then administered the oath of secrecy.

Well, that about rounds out the similarities between the
Wiccan and current Mormon rites.  There is just one more
thing to cover,

The Anointing

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/08/93         8:45 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/08/1993


Andy

All of this Masonic material you posted reminds me of the
story of Sir Gawain.  It seems that there is a certain green
sash that very much resembles the Mormon apron.  Gawain is
very fashion conscious and tied it at the shoulder as well
as at the waist.  The tale of the Green Knight is rich with
temple imagery.  This could be be a new thread.  Want to tie
a few knots?  It is also "fitting" to post some of the other
related material from medieval Xtianity, like the writings
of Pseudo-Dionysius, as a postscript to Dino's marvelous
posts.

Marry!

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         4:52 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/12 11:08 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Mike,
   Just some random thoughts:
   While there is a correlation between the Wiccan circle
and the Temple Prayer Circle, there are also some
differences.  In the Wiccan rites, the circle is the focus.
Yet the Mormon rite all seems to point toward passing to the
Celestial Room.  In one rite the circle is the end, in the
other it is the means.
   Also, I must chuckle at your restraint.  You mention the
warning that "God will not be mocked," yet you make no
hints of some more specific warnings contained in the
pre-1991 ceremony.  Becoming cautious in your old age?
   I wonder if the Masonic connection was part of the reason
for the penalties being edited out of the ceremonies.  Next
time I am in Salt Lake I will see if I can scrounge you a
copy of DUNCAN'S RITUAL, and you will see what I mean.
                                          \/ Andrew
                                          /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         4:53 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/12 11:02 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

   You are going to have to refresh my memory on this story,
Mike.  I cannot remember the details, but I do seem to
remember a few of the connections.
   As I recall, part of the Green Knight's power centered on
a sash/robe/apron that he wore, and then bestowed on Sir
Gawain????                                              \/
   Didn't we also see some nasty beheadings???          /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         4:59 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/12 12:28 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BONNIE WRIGHT   (FVNM12A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISH

Mike:
 Thought you should know that Bryan is a she.
I know you will like that.



bonnie


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         5:00 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/12 12:34 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    WARREN LATHE III   (KFVW57A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISH

Hi Proclus! Yea,  I jump around don't I?  I was spending
some time on the evolution board (honing my discussion
skills with some creationists) and kind of got away from the
religion board. Then I saw this one again and decided to
stop by for awhile. Bryan is a female.  She does think that
the LDS church is a "fraud".  So I'd thought I'd discuss it
with her.   So how is the Pagan church going? I haven't seen
much on it lately!   Talk to you later,

                   ***Trey


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         5:01 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/12 12:56 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISH


PS Actually, until I re-read your note, I didn't realize
you'd started a new boardlet. (JUST what we need...) I was
just paging through. I thought it was MY new category,
"Anti-Mormonism." See that one for why I think Smith and his
works are fraudulent.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         5:01 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/12 12:59 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISH

  Well, first, Proclus, it's "she." And, second, I've been
caught in a flame war with one of your co-religionists who
likes to make accusations but isn't too keen on answering
questions himself. (That accounts for the volume--although
please note that many of them are one-liners, or at least
one-pagers.) I'm not a basher--if YOU'RE up for a real
discussion, I am too!       bryan // rational being


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         5:02 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/12  1:20 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    RONALD BOWER   (BRPG31A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISH

proclus,
     Your right! The faith of Gazelam is getting closer to

Christianity every day. No offense intended.
                                               RB
                                             L.D.S.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         5:02 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/12  1:39 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    RONALD BOWER   (BRPG31A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISH

proclus,
     Just a note to let you know, Bryan is a She. I think
you'll find her very interesting.
                                        RB
                                      L.D.S.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/12/93         5:02 PM

         FRANK DISCUSSION
TOPIC:   RELIGION
TIME:    01/12  2:05 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    BRYAN MILLER   (JHCC40A)
SUBJECT: ANTI-MORMONISH


  Glad to hear it (about the common ground).
  (Glad to find someone else who writes things like "so mote
it be," too.)
  "A very clever fraud" about sums it up, I think. I have
never denied the many pngts of Joseph Smith.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/13/93         9:53 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/13/1993


Andy

I don't think you can actually make those kinds of
generalizations about temple prayer circles.  The argument
could equally be made that the prayer circle is just another
form of the veil ritual.  All of the elements are there,
perhaps in slightly varied form.  Isis Unveiled.  A similar
problem exists in Genesis where we see two different
versions of the creation story, but both are represented.

The penalties are a kind of sticky issue.  One of these days
I'll post a selection from GEMS FROM THE EQUINOX that
contains the Mormon penalties virtually verbatim.  These
things are had in the western esoteric societies.  While I
see the elimination of the penalties in an overall positive
light, their elimination also means that it is now virtually
impossible to hang a cabalistic framework on the ritual.
Too bad.                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I love keeping secrets.  I have never really told anyone
what I really learned from the Mormon ritual.  Maybe I never
will.

hidden

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/13/93         9:55 AM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/13/1993


Andy

The characters in Gawain's story are isomorphous with the
the characters in the temple drama.

Gawain = Adam
green sash = apron
Arthur = God
Green Knight = Satan
Green Knight's Wife = Eve
Gatekeeper = Peter

Attention is paid to how and where the sash is tied.  I also
thought it was interesting that the five point star was
referred to as Solomon's Knot.

image and reflection
                              proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/17/93         2:01 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/17  1:38 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

   Aw c'mon, Mike.  Tell me what you REALLY learned.  Maybe
in private?

   Regarding the penalties, If I were to quote a few
passages from DUNCAN'S, I would have the Grant Johnson
brigade out on the front lawn preparing the tar and
feathers.  {apologies to Grant.  You really aren't like
that, but I needed to borrow your Prodigy Persona to
complete the image.  You are now allowed one and a half free
"digs" at St Andrew.}
   Experts on the religious experience known as 'initiation'
tell us that there are some common threads that run through
most succesful initiation schemes.  Two of these are ritual
nudity and death.

   The representation of death is not specifically spelled
out in the temple, but it was given at least some
representation in the penalties.  Have we lost something by
deleting this part of the ritual?  Could {and should} the
death motif be brought back into the temple, possibly in the
narative?

And, pardoning my ignorance, what is the cabalistic tie-in?

                                          \/ St Spock, "too
                                          /\ much LDS in the
                                             sixties."


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/17/93         2:01 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/17  1:38 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Mike,
   A favor, please.  Mail me a copy of that paper you did on
the green knight.  My memory needs a refresh.


                                      \/ Andrew,
                                      /\ raster scan.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/17/93         2:08 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/17  1:59 PM

TO:      LEON LIPP JR   (GSHN01A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Leon,
   I guess you didn't see Card's character, Alvin Maker,
from the same angle as Mike and I.
   What was the name of Joseph Smith's oldest brother?
Alvin.
   Did the Smith family feel that one of their children was
favored of God and destined for greatness?
Yes.  Alvin.
   When Alvin died, the family felt that his destiny fell to
his younger brother, Joseph.
   

   Alvin Maker, of Orson Card's imagination, WAS the Joseph
Smith of our reality.  Your reactions to the magical element
of this story chart a very close parallel to the feeling
that Mormonism exacts from the hallowed halls of Xtianity.
   Not that I am faulting you, I simply find your reaction
to be instructive.
   Remember, the stone that was rejected shall become the
cornerstone of the great temple of God.  I think that this
analogy refers to many things, magic among them.

                                          \/ Andrew, digging
                                          /\ about the roots
                                             of the Tree of
                                             Life.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/17/93         2:09 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/17  1:59 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS


   "Magic makes God more practical, beneficial, and
reliable."
                 -David Grossman

                                                      \/
                                                      /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/19/93        11:07 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/18 10:26 AM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Andy and Matt

You Devils!  None of these rituals have anything whatsoever
to do with sex.

               get a life
                          proclus                    heh heh


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/19/93        11:07 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/19  7:47 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Mike,

   Wrong-o, thou UN-lightened one.  It ALL has to do with
sex.
   What, I ask you, is the final reward of those who remain
true to their Temple Covenants?  What sets them apart from
the rest?  What means the phrase "Eternal Lives"?
   Tsk, tsk, tsk Mike.
   Ok, I admit that the ritual itself does not cover this
base, at least not explicitly.  But we learn in the temple
that, unlike our Xtian fellows, we Mormons have a vested
interest in placing procreation in a different light.  Of
all who profess Christ, we seem to be alone in exalting and
approving of this glorious facet of our existence.  We even
dare to say that it is holy.  We would never dream of
equating it with the concept of 'original sin.'
                                   \/ St Andrew, in search
                                   /\ of Aphrodite.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/19/93        11:08 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/19  7:49 AM

TO:      MATTHEW BEGIN   (PMHR30A)
FROM:    K CHRISTENSEN        (BTNS11A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

Alister Crowley ?

OZZY RULES !


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/19/93        11:09 PM

         RELIGION
TOPIC:   LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME:    01/19  6:49 PM

TO:      K CHRISTENSEN        (BTNS11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: PAGAN BOOTS

K
   It is spelled A-L-E-I-S-T-E-R.  We would not want to
antagonize poor old Uncle Al, would we?

                             \/ Andrew and the Holy Trinity
                             /\ {Rush, Sisters of Mercy
                                               and the KLF}Pagan Boots 4
=============
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service         01/19/93        10:46 PM

RELIGION
TOPIC:    LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO:       BTNS11A
SUBJECT:  PAGAN BOOTS
DATE:     01/19/1993


K

Ozzy has a great song there doesn't he.  I especially like
the version on Tribute.  I am often surprised how many
people know about the song, but know nothing about the
actual person, Aleister Crowley.  Have we found a new
direction for Pagan Boots, or should we start a new subject>

    \ /         Every man and woman is a star.
  ---X---
    / \
                         proclus
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