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Mormons{TrueChurch?1
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PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/16/92        5:29 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       ALL
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/16/1992


When members say that they know that the Mormon church is
the only true church, they are being unscriptural.  Nowhere
in the standard works is it said that the Mormon church is
the only true church upon the face of the earth.

born again pagan
          proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:40 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17 11:34 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

That's about the wackiest opinion I've seen since leaving
the Navy.

Only hear what one ear says, and forget the heart of the
matter.  Burn the bums out, says the pro-cuss.

True church is today, not 1000 years ago.  Stupid people
think that all churches are true.  The complete truth can
only be found in one church today.

But then again, the pro-cuss always knows LOVE.  Let's not
forget that any fool can name himself whatever he pleases.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:41 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17 11:34 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MELISSA GATES   (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

But Proclus... doesn't it say that in Joseph Smith's History
1:19 (in POGP, which is, of course, one of the standard
works): all the churches' creeds were "an abomination".  Or
so the "Personage" says.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:41 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17  4:31 PM

TO:      MELISSA GATES   (DWRH70C)
FROM:    DANIEL JENKINS   (KGWR00A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Careful now, Melissa, we all know that the abomination only
refers to the 'historic' Roman Catholic Church and not the
'modern' Catholic Church.  Or so I been truthfully told.


                                   Dan
                               and the yeti


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:42 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17  3:49 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MARTIN GODWIN   (FTHN92A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Roger that!

Marty in Boise, Idaho


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:42 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17  4:32 PM

TO:      MELISSA GATES   (DWRH70C)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Get your facts straight, Gates.

Smith's works are not standard works.  Too many people
playing stupid, acting stupid, and looking stupid.  Ask any
LDS member what is the Standard Works, and the answer will
swell the back of your neck.  Too bad staying undercover
where the bugs crawl and eat on each other. Why not proclaim
the real outline of the discussion under MORMON BASHING,
where the 3 or 4 bugs have been exposed for what they are.

Clever deceitful words, much like lawyers summarizing back
and forth.  What a lowly life.  How much does the job pay?
Don't forget the name badge at the next pro-cuss convention.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:44 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17  4:32 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Mike:

The very first section of the Doctrine and Covenants says
that this church is the only true church.  (D&C 1:30)
"..the only true and LIVING church upon the face of the
whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased,
speaking unto the church collectively and not individually."
Its there in the standard works.

And it is true as true.
                           Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:45 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17  5:44 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Procless,
                  D&C 1:30, dude.
                       Sorry.

PS to Stewart.  Watch yer tongue, fella.  Proclus is my
buddy, and he has shown one endearing quality that neither
you nor I can claim.  He has never, NOT ONCE, made a   >>>>>
personal attack against another person on this board.
   We are here to discuss, debate, and have a good time.
We are not here to denigrate, bully and engage in infantile
name calling.  Read D&C 121, starting about verse 33.  THEN
come back and feel free to share you opinions.  We will
welcome you.
                       \/ Andrew, who shouldn't let things
                       /\ like this get to him, darnit!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:46 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17  7:53 PM

TO:      STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
FROM:    MELISSA GATES   (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

What's this about bugs??  According to Mormon Elder
McConkie, "standard works" includes the Bible, BoM, D&C, and
POGP.  POGP includes the Joseph Smith History, which is
where the passage I was quoting comes from.  Are you LDS?

                 under the sunstone with the bugs...


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:46 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/17  9:26 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    DANIEL JENKINS   (KGWR00A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Aw come on Andy, we all put up with the "King" for about a
fortnight so one little ironrodder shouldn't last but the
week.  As my trusty Bartletts says: Posterity weaves no
garlands for imitators.  Or is that posterior?

                                     Dan
                               gluttonous maximus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:47 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  1:06 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    CHRISTOPHER ROOT   (HHKR25A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Andrew,

Gotta like it!


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:47 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  1:07 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

McGuire,
What side of the fence are you sitting on?  If you're
sitting in the middle, it can get quite painful on the ....

That pro-cuss buddy of yours is the same paper pushing guy
who started the riots in 6 major cities this last month.
The deceitful liar always uses clever turns with his own
tongue.  At least I have one... snakes don't.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:48 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  1:07 PM

TO:      MELISSA GATES   (DWRH70C)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Gates,
Your reference isn't even standard works!  The good general
authority was just that, a G.A.

Check your facts on what the standard works is.  You're
close, but you missed it by home plate.  Aren't you a
disciple of pro-cuss?  Don't deny three times under a rock.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:48 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  1:08 PM

TO:      STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
FROM:    THOMAS GOODWIN   (PHJX44A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

  Ms. Gates MUST be saying something RIGHT to earn such a
juvenile series of insults. Incidentally, I didn't detect
any textual references. Just interpersonal back-biting.
Can't you elevate the quality of your rhetoric? It's really
getting to be tiresome.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:49 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  3:46 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    SANDRA NORTHINGTON   (MFVC98A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Mr. Love,
     Another fairy tale of a note.  It seems this board is
used mostly by non-members, and that the majority are
anti-LDS.
     "Born Again Pagan"???  Do you also burn?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:50 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  7:09 PM

TO:      SANDRA NORTHINGTON   (MFVC98A)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Sandra,

He has a garage full of crosses, and a personal list of
witches.  He was also seen at several burn sites in Los
Angeles recently.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:50 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  7:11 PM

TO:      THOMAS GOODWIN   (PHJX44A)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Goodwin,
Rhetorical fiction is what this board has become.  I had
hoped, as others, that non-fiction discussion by members,
for members, to members, with invited guests with a minimum
degree of respect for the LDS faith... would be of good
cheer.  But no... we have the like of the infamous sick
(six), who tear down, burn down, and lie to distort truth.
Perhaps when the board returns to non-fiction, after the
fairy tales have been dismissed, then I can participate.
They have made me what I have become (for the moment)

What side of the pasture are you on?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        1:51 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/18  7:17 PM

TO:      THOMAS GOODWIN   (PHJX44A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LANCASTER   (NNGB32A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Thomas Goodwin,

Knew a Goodwin family in Crestline, California, who owns
several businesses.

Garland's rhetoric is largely due to the anti-LDS board
members who frequently make fun of, chastise, and offer
confused rhetoric of their own.  Their hidden agenda is
being exposed by Garland and others who obviously will not
stand for it.

Believe one such person was Porter Rockwell, who didn't
stand for a lot of ____ himself.

A civil discussion cannot take place under such barbaric
rules (or lack of).  The meek are the first to the slaughter
under this recent discussion.  Look at Las Vegas and Los
Angeles.  Try and persuade in a similar climate.  ML/API


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        3:56 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       PRVM96A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/19/1992


Stew

Stewart says, "The complete truth can only be found in one
church today." It is hard to believe that there is some
wisdom to be heard amidst the tweet tweeterings.  I geuss I
stirred the stewpot this time!  Herein it is recognized that
truth can exist in an incomplete form.  Well, at least that
is something.  Also, there seems to be a recognition that
the degree of truthfulness can change over time, but I'd be
careful about giving that much credit.

This subject can be a very deep well.  I really want this
discussion to get beyond the usual pro-cussing v.
anti-cussing.  That gets tiresome doesn't it?  Maybe we
can't exactly LOVE one another. Perhaps we can dis-cuss one
another civilly and try to respect even the wackiest
opinions.  I stand by my statement.  Strewn opinions and
interpretations are given.  You failed to give a
counter-example, strewn argument.  I see that Andy and Grant
managed a counter-example, wieldun.  I think that the
scriptures may be as true today as they were 1000 years ago.
Truth is a big thing and we have little minds.

charmed by snakes

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        8:40 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       DWRH70C
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/19/1992


Melissa the garlanded one,

For you, I will venture a definition of abomination.  (We
have to stop meeting like this.  They might turn us into
stewmeat.)  One form of abomination is mockery.  If a church
contains part of the truth, it has a certain form of
truthfulness.  In other words, it is a mockery of God or an
abomination.  That is one point of view. Another would be
that this so-called abomination of a church sees a little
part of a very big and beautiful picture.  All truth is
circumscribed into one whole, but the arc of the compass can
only cut part of it.  Most of the time I feel like the
church that can only see part of the picture.

Truth is precious, regardless of its source.

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        8:43 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/19/1992


Grant and Andwoo

You might have guessed that I had this very scripture in
mind when I made my post.  It is familiar to most Mormons.
D&C 1:30 is one of the most misinterpreted scriptures in
history.  Grant, you quoted it rather nicely but failed to
follow the logic of it.  I repeat;

"..the only true and LIVING church upon the face of the
whole earth"

Note carefully, this scripture logically leaves open the
possibility that there may be true churches that are not
living, and living churches that are not true.  Though,
fatally flawed, these churches may be more true, or
conversely more living than the Mormon church.

You see, it is NOT in the standard works, and it is NOT true
as true.

differance

proclus

ps Sorry bud, it seems that I have now stooped to name
calling.  Ah but it's all good natured fun isn't it?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/19/92        8:48 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       MFVC98A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/19/1992


Ms Northington

All fairy tales were once religions.  If we burn, we are
burning our own heretage.

bewitched by the everlasting burnings
              proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:24 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/19 11:03 AM

TO:      STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
FROM:    THOMAS GOODWIN   (PHJX44A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

  Please forgive me, I am not used to dealing with
irrational people of any faith. I had hoped that any
response that you would post to me would be a reasoned
argument in support of your beliefs. I am truly
disappointed. But, not surprised. Maybe, just maybe, Mark
Twain was right when he said, "Religion is the last resort
of scoundrels."


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:25 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/19 11:05 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LANCASTER   (NNGB32A)
FROM:    THOMAS GOODWIN   (PHJX44A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

  Well, you are right about the Goodwin family. We are all
rich and famous . We have been known to own vast
complexes of chemical corporations. We were also in the
Kennedy White House. We are Jews, Catholics, Lutherans,
Atheists, Agnostics, Mormons, etc. What else is new? And
what does this have to do with anything that is truly
important. Not Much! ENJOY!!! (it's later than you think)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:25 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/19  1:56 PM

TO:      DANIEL JENKINS   (KGWR00A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Danny,
   Yeah, yeah, yeah.....
   Reflex reaction.  I'll probably live to regret it.

Mike,
   Ok, amigo.  What's yer point?  Just a head test for the
unwashed masses, or are you gonna lay something heavy on us?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:27 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/19  1:59 PM

TO:      STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Stew

Stewart says, "The complete truth can only be found in one
church today. "It is hard to believe that there is some
wisdom to be heard amidst the tweet tweeterings.  I geuss I
stirred the stewpot this time!  Herein it is recognized that
truth can exist in an incomplete form.  Well, at least that
is something.  Also, there seems to be a recognition that
the degree of truthfulness can change over time, but I'd be
careful about giving that much credit.

This subject can be a very deep well.  I really want this
discussion to get beyond the usual pro-cussing v.
anti-cussing.  That gets tiresome doesn't it?  Maybe we
can't exactly LOVE one another. Perhaps we can dis-cuss one
another civilly and try to respect even the wackiest
opinions.  I stand by my statement.  Strewn opinions and
interpretations are given.  Garland failed to give a
counter-example, strewn argument.  I see that Andy and Grant
managed a counter-example, wieldun.  I think that the
scriptures may be as true today as they were 1000 years ago.
Truth is a big thing and we have little minds.

charmed by snakes

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:29 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/19  5:04 PM

TO:      THOMAS GOODWIN   (PHJX44A)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Goodwin,
After reading your reply to Lancaster, it's no wonder you
failed to get your original thought across.  Why don't you
answer the question?  It's hilarious to see someone take one
page and say absolutely nothing, except answer the
"getting-to-know-you" part with humor and taste.  "Good
evening (says the guy), glad to know you." (Then sits down!)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:31 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/19  9:07 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    DANIEL JENKINS   (KGWR00A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Andy, no problem.  The notes only last for a few days and
despite what some may think I believe that only a few score
or so actually read these postings.  So in the final
analysis what the hell....except I've been noticing this van
across the street.  These guys with white shirts and ties
keep getting in and out but the van never moves and my t.v.
is getting lousy reception.  Na, just a coincidence.  But
you know, now that I think about one of those guys did look
like a telemarketer and my gargage door was ajar this
morning....


                                    Danny
                                1-900-SPOOKS


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:32 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/20  1:39 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (PRVM96A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Michael,
Absolutely brilliant!
Finally have common ground on cloud 12.
Couldn't agree with you more that truth is in all churches,
and not all churches are living. (nor have all truth)
That is except one.
(The first respectful reply I've written to you, Michael)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        1:32 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/20  3:36 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Ok ProCuss (just kidding):

I may be lacking that special ingredient, that one piece of
information that would give me the ability to make sense out
of the logic you posed, but sadly, I just don't get it.
  Let me refer again to the D&C. Not just verse 30. D&C
section 1 is the preface to the book of commandments, and
it is obvious wo whom the revelation is directed to (LDS
church members).

Verse 29 says that JOSEPH SMITH had the power to translate
the Book of Mormon. Verse 30 says "And ALSO, to whom these
commandments were given (obvious reference to Joseph Smith
in context), night have power to lay the foundation of this
church (guess which church...), and to bring it forth out of
obscurity (were other churches in obscurity at the time of
this revelation?) and out of darkness, the ONLY true and
living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I
the Lord am well pleased, speaking unto the church
collectively, and not individually."

Isn't it absolutely clear that the scriptures state that
there is only one true and living church on the face of the
earth?  I think it is. No, there's no doubt about it.


                                                     Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/21/92        3:10 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       ALL
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/21/1992


One of the implications of DC1:30 is that there may exist
churches, other than Mormonism, that are true.  Such
churches would not be considered living.  What does this
mean?

Whatever it means, the assertion by members that the Mormon
church is the only true church is clearly NOT supported by
this scripture.  In fact, it is not supported by any of the
standard works of the church.

How true is true?

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/23/92        2:07 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/21  1:15 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Proclus,
   Andwoo?  ANDWOO?   That's OK, I can take your name-
calling like a *SOB* man.
   A short time after I read that verse, the words "true AND
LIVING" did come back to haunt me: sort of like you
explained, and sort of not.  Anyway, I dismissed it as the
ravings of a sick mind.                               >>>>>>
   Interesting.  So are we to understand that, from your
unique point of veiw, some of the other Gods that were
worshipped in antiquity were (dare I say it) real?  Or
(worse yet) ARE real?
   Hmmmmmmm.  Now I wonder if these dudes could be accessed
in some way?
                                \/ Andrew, invoke often,
                                /\ banish often.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/23/92        2:07 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/21  1:15 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Proclus,
   Andwoo?  ANDWOO?   That's OK, I can take your name-
calling like a *SOB* man.
   A short time after I read that verse, the words "true AND
LIVING" did come back to haunt me: sort of like you
explained, and sort of not.  Anyway, I dismissed it as the
ravings of a sick mind.                               >>>>>>
   Interesting.  So are we to understand that, from your
unique point of veiw, some of the other Gods that were
worshipped in antiquity were (dare I say it) real?  Or
(worse yet) ARE real?
   Hmmmmmmm.  Now I wonder if these dudes could be accessed
in some way?
                                \/ Andrew, invoke often,
                                /\ banish often.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/23/92        2:54 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/23/1992


Andy
You precocious little snxxt!  One of the things that I
would eventually like to do in this subject is define the
term: living church.  "A time to come in which nothing shall
be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they
shall be manifest." DC 121.28
         diversify         proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/23/92        2:59 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/23/1992


Andy

Joseph taught that there are living entities everywhere,
even in the most surprising places.  Remember those lunar
quakers?  Have you ever been in the woods and noticed the
wind as it walked amidst the trees, or did you have the
feeling that something was watching you?  It is possible
that native peoples accessed local "entities" and, given the
human proclivity for insanity, decided to worship them.
This then would be the origin of indigenous tribal gods.
Patience must be the virtue of higher intelligence. Perhaps
these entities humored the humans and even gave them helpful
info like how to till the soil or build a sun kingdom.

The idea is that there are other true churches that are not
"living".  We can learn the truth from the indigenous
"gods".
Her ferns were our bed

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/23/92        3:02 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/23 12:04 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Proclussssssssssssssssssssss.
   I'm shooting from the hip here, so forgive any lapses,
but:
   A reading of D&C 76 shows that only those who accept the
higher ordinances of the gospel will attain Eternal Life.
Or, as it has been called, Eternal Lives.  Hmmm. True and
LIVING church / Eternal LIVES.  I see a connection here.
   But those Mormons who are not valiant in living the
gospel and/or refuse the higher ordinances [endowment &
sealing] get lesser glories.  And these lesser glories are
also open to those of the "true" and non-living churchs who
accept Christ and are "good and honorable men [& women]."

  How am I doing so far?

  Now, why different true churchs?  And can the "living"
title be pulled from the ONE CHURCH if it gets too hidebound
and moved elswhere?
   BTW, listened to a radio interview of your favorite
author last night (ExoPsychology, Neuropolitique, etc.).  He
claims that all religious movements of the free and
charismatic nature eventually become dogmatic and "turn on
their members."  Whadaya think?  There are those who would
apply this to Mormonism, but I do not think that I would.
After all, the men in black who were haunting Dan in the
land of the All-Night-Potato have not appeared here in
Pervo, at least not yet.
                                  \/ Andrew,
                                  /\ post-larval


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/25/92        2:20 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/24  1:27 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    C SCHMINK            (FHCS11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Way back when, I successfully (very) navigated a "Logic and
the Scientific Method" course in undergrad work, so I have
no problem following that post.  I tried back dating, but
what you referred to apparently has already met the ever-
shortening lifespan of a *P note (one of my "17 reasons", as
H.& R. Block used to say, for only having 10 days left on
this "service").  Your are correct, but it is also correct
to say that there is not NECESSARILY implied the existence
of other true, but NOT living churches.  There may be NO
other true OR living churches.  And perhaps there is only
one TRUE church, but many living ones - the flip side of
that "and" statement.  It could be the only TRUE and living
church, the only true and LIVING church, or the only one
that is EITHER true OR living.  So, the implication doesn't
necessarily become an EXCLUSIVE implication.

Now, at the risk of being accused of getting soft and
reasonable in my last days (on *P that is), let me get
downright dogmatic:  D&C 1 is accurate.  Period.  To borrow
a phrase used by some in the "opposition," "God said it, I
believe it, and that settles it!"  (See Grant, I'm can still
do it!)
WOW!  How's that for dogmatic?!  (arff arff!)

(Somehow it's like just before graduation - it's all
serious, but who can TAKE it all seriously when there are
but days left until it's all over.)

05/24 07:46 am   + Chris +  (in Georgia)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/25/92        2:21 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/24  1:27 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    C SCHMINK            (FHCS11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Divide who and conquer what?  Or is that divide what and
conquer who?  Or divide what and conquer what?  Or divide
who and conquer who?  Please be more specific.

By the way - before I leave this board, I've got to ask one
burning question:  are you reincarnated?  Perhaps I should
show more reverence for historical minds such as yours.  Or
are you just MPD, which is discussed elsewhere on this very
board?

05/24 07:53 am   + Chris +


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/26/92        1:39 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/24  1:27 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    C SCHMINK            (FHCS11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Way back when, I successfully (very) navigated a "Logic and
the Scientific Method" course in undergrad work, so I have
no problem following that post.  I tried back dating, but
what you referred to apparently has already met the ever-
shortening lifespan of a *P note (one of my "17 reasons", as
H.& R. Block used to say, for only having 10 days left on
this "service").  Your are correct, but it is also correct
to say that there is not NECESSARILY implied the existence
of other true, but NOT living churches.  There may be NO
other true OR living churches.  And perhaps there is only
one TRUE church, but many living ones - the flip side of
that "and" statement.  It could be the only TRUE and living
church, the only true and LIVING church, or the only one
that is EITHER true OR living.  So, the implication doesn't
necessarily become an EXCLUSIVE implication.

Now, at the risk of being accused of getting soft and
reasonable in my last days (on *P that is), let me get
downright dogmatic:  D&C 1 is accurate.  Period.  To borrow
a phrase used by some in the "opposition," "God said it, I
believe it, and that settles it!"  (See Grant, I'm can still
do it!)
WOW!  How's that for dogmatic?!  (arff arff!)

(Somehow it's like just before graduation - it's all
serious, but who can TAKE it all seriously when there are
but days left until it's all over.)

05/24 07:46 am   + Chris +  (in Georgia)Mormons{TrueChurch?2
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/26/92        1:39 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/24  1:27 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    C SCHMINK            (FHCS11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Divide who and conquer what?  Or is that divide what and
conquer who?  Or divide what and conquer what?  Or divide
who and conquer who?  Please be more specific.

By the way - before I leave this board, I've got to ask one
burning question:  are you reincarnated?  Perhaps I should
show more reverence for historical minds such as yours.  Or
are you just MPD, which is discussed elsewhere on this very
board?

05/24 07:53 am   + Chris +


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/26/92        1:40 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/25  4:42 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

OK, you neo-platonic wannabe, you!  Let's turn the worm!

D&C 20:19  "And gave them commandments that they should
serve him, the only LIVING AND TRUE God, and that he should
be the only being whom they should worship."

What?  Does this mean that there are gods who are TRUE but
not LIVING?  Or LIVING but not TRUE?   Let's see you explain
that one away!

But on the other foot, you stole another scripture that I
was going to use to sow further confusion (D&C 121:28,
Whether there be one God or many...).  Refugees from the
reconstructionism topic may want to note that this verse was
dictated to Alexander McCrae in the Liberty jail in 1839.
That was a few years before the Nuavoo teachings that really
blew the lid off the "many gods" can of worms.  Hmmmmm.
                                                         >>>
Then there is D&C 121:32 "...Council of the Eternal God of
all other gods before the world was..."   But I stray.

May I quote some poetry Proc?  But of course I can.

"But the great things of God, which he show'd unto me,
Unlawful to utter, I dare not declare;
They surpass all the wisdom and greatness of men,
And are seen, as has Paul, where they are.

"I will go, I will go, while the secret of life,
Is blooming in heaven, and blasting in hell;
Is leaving on earth, and budding in space:-
I will go, I will go, with you, brother, farewell."

That was the last to stanzas of Joseph Smith's poetic
rendition of Section 76. Cool poem.  it is in THE
REVELATIONS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH, Cook, Deseret Book,
1985.
                                                  2
What would Uncle Tim say?           \/ Andrew; SMI LE
                                    /\


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/26/92        1:41 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/25  6:00 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Mike:

This one scripture (D&C 1:30) ought to be enough to remove
any doubt about the position that the Church of Jesus Christ
has on this matter.  But your Boolean logic is more
appropriate for mathematics than for desciphering what the
scripture means to us.  All we need to do is look at yet one
more scripture to KNOW what D&C 1:30 really means, and lets
do that now.

In the Pearl of Great Price JH 1:19-20 in answer to Joseph
Smith's question "which of all the sects was right?" the
Lord responded and he recorded this:
  "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they
were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that
all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that
those professors were all corrupt; that" 'they draw near to
me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they
teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form
of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'  He again
forbade me to join with any of them."

Very blunt language. And very clear what it means. It means
that D&C 1:30 speaks of only ONE church, and this is the
answer that you will get if you don't ignore all of the
other revelations that were received of Joseph Smith from
the Lord on this matter.  The Bible also teaches that there
is ONE faith, ONE baptism and one Lord. Not two or three.
  ONE way back to God the Father.  And there can be no
parallel paths. If there was, then it could not reasonably
be argued that the path of Buddah was invalid. Or Moslem or
Judaism, etc. etc.

Since the Christian religions of the world are NOT united
even in some of the most basic doctrines such as baptism,
then the statement of one saying to the effect, that it
doesn't matter which church you join as long as they preach
Christ, is an invalid statement. Just because a path is a
good path does not equate with it being the true path. And
all roads do not lead to heaven. Straight and narrow is the
way, and few there be that find it. (words of Christ)

I've rambled enough.                   Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/26/92        9:40 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/26/1992


Andy

D&C 20:19  "And gave them commandments that they should
serve him, the only LIVING AND TRUE God, and that he should
be the only being whom they should worship."

The Bible is full of language like this.  It doesn't
dissuade Mormons from believing in multiple gods.  We should
not be surprised to see Joseph using the this same language
in an early revelation such as this. (You closet
reconstructionist!)  Mormons may interpret this in any way
they feel in light of the teaching that there are in fact
multiple gods in the Mormon universe.

Chris has kindly pointed out that this langauge does not
require that there exist gods (churches) that are
exclusively true or living.  It only leaves open the
possibility.  Modern Mormons would not assert that they
worship the only true God.  Similarly, they should not
contend that they belong to the only true church, that is,
based on any interpretation of the standard works (ie. DC
1:30).

Often, as I have sat beneath particularly old trees I have
felt as if I were overshadowed by some power, or by some
spirit of high intelligence.  From these interludes I
conceived the notion that the ancients must have worshipped
these powers.  Personally, I felt no more desire to worship
the tree than to worship my wife!  It is likely that, in my
mind, I contacted the intelligences that have been spoken of
in the standard works.  Although, there is no reason for us
to worship them, they ought to be thought of as gods in
their own spheres.  They seem to be everywhere.

Similarly, truth can be found anywhere you look.

proclus

Ps  That poem made me smile 2.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/26/92        9:48 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/26/1992


Grant

Please suggest a form of logic, other than Boolean, so that
I may use it in the interpretation of the scriptures.  Don't
tell me to get the Spirit.  You know as well as I that we
are to reason things out in our minds before we take them
before the Lord.  Please do suggest an alternative engine
for my reasoning.

The Lords statement that "all their creeds were an
abomination in His sight; that those professors were all
corrupt" is really trivial.  It is a simplistic statement
that a 14 year old can grasp.  Think about it.  The Lord
requires perfection.  If I hand him a book with a single
falsehood, that book is untrue, at least at this level.
Thus it is easy to make blanket statements about the other
faiths.
                         >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This does not recognise the truth that they have, nor thier
relative trueness amongst themselves.  Neither does this
address the idea of the living church, which we have seen is
our central question.

Frankly, I am disappointed that you have dogmatically fallen
back on the fact that the Mormon church is the one and only
true and living church.  That is not what the discussion is
about.  What about the possibility of other churches that
are true but not living for example.  Neither of the
scriptures you gave refutes this POSSIBILITY.  Perhaps their
doctrine is absolutely correct.  We could learn from them.
Maybe they know more than we do, but, their practices have
become corrupted.

Let's get to the bottom of this.

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/28/92        3:42 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       JVFK79A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/28/1992


---<--@ Marsha

Nice to have You on board.  I was overwhelmed by your post.
I appreciate the examples of institutions, other than the
Church, which the Lord has used to move men closer to
exaltation.  This, in spite of the fact that they are not
true and living.  God created a very big world, and
this is still a very small church.

I really liked the Declaration story.  Isn't it strange that
the Lord's angel would boost a revolutionary document?  Did
you know that 40% of Americans know absolutely NOTHING about
the Church?   That's from a survey that the Church
sponsered.

Isn't Elisa the Elect Lady?   Think of her experience of
being sealed to two prophets AND being a prophetess herself!
INCREDIBLE!                     >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Where did you find that awesome bit of poetry?

cozy, wrapped in beauty

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/28/92        3:59 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/28/1992


Grant

Many Mormons have misconceptions.  Does this mean that their
religion is untrue?  Your treatment of the topic of trueness
is trivial at best.  It is easy to find falsehoods within
the religions of the world.  To concentrate on this ignores
those things that are true within their traditions.
Furthermore, you seem to be giving trueness the status of a
block essence which is either had or not.  In fact, there
are degrees of trueness, based on that amount of truth that
is had by a sect.  Some have more truth than others.  The
Mormon church claims to be the only true and living church.
Its trueness is qualified by its liveness.  The Church does
not claim to have all of the truth.  On the contrary, there
are many things that are yet to be revealed.  Similarly,
other churches have a part of the truth.  They may be
tainted with falsehood.  In that case they could be a living
church.        yinyang        proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/29/92       10:01 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/29/1992


Grant

Many Mormons have misconceptions.  Does this mean that their
religion is untrue?  Your treatment of the topic of trueness
is trivial at best.  It is easy to find falsehoods within
the religions of the world.  To concentrate on this ignores
those things that are true within their traditions.>>>>>>>>>
You can't put trueness in your pocket.

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/29/92       11:00 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/28  7:35 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Proclus (and Grant),

                       True ------|~~~\____Celestial
                     Living ------|   /    Glory
                                   ~~~
   Well, so much for Boolean Logic (that is an AND gate up
there, if my graphic is not clear)              >>>>>>>>
   OK, let me come out of my reconstructionist closet, don
my semantics thinking cap, and.......

   What does "TRUE" mean?????

1. Containing only doctrinal truth, with no error?

2. Being true to the correct worship of the correct god?

3. "Adam, having been TRUE and faithful?"
  So far we have assumed that TRUE means doctrinal
correctness.  Let us not confuse that with doctrinal
completeness, for the Lord still has a lot to reveal to us.
But if we look to the Mormon Church as having been
[Doctrinally Correct] true, we run into some trouble.  As
has already been thrashed out a few weeks back, the Mormon
concept of God has not always agreed with the current
concept.  THE LECTURES ON FAITH, once included as part of
the D&C, clearly taught God as a personage of spirit, and
the Holy Ghost as no sort of personage at all.
   Assuming CURRENT doctrine to be correct, guess what>>>>>
   The LDS church, at the time that D&C 20 was written, was
NOT [Doctrinally Correct] TRUE.

   But God said it was true.  So definition #1 gets thrown
out.

   And definition #2?  It boils down to a debate of
authority and the validity of revaeled ritual and dogma.

   Now definition #3......that intrigues me.  What do you
say, my right hand man Michael?                   PS>>>>>>>
   Just for the fun of it, Y'all, grab the biggest and
baddest dictionary that you have in the house, and look up
the word TRUE.  Most interesting.

                                   \/ Andrew, slaving over
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/29/92       11:00 PM
                                   /\ my Karnaugh Maps.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/29/92       11:01 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/29  9:18 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Hi Michael,  I came upon the poetry, (along with some other
amazing stuff) from a woman who gave a talk called 'Father
Adam, Mother Eve'. I can't seem to remember her name at the
present, I lent it out, you know how that goes, but I loved
the poem and copied it down to write up in calligraphy.  She
gave better references than I did.  I just began listening
to the D & C symposium, it has all kinds of wonderful
'stuff'. I really appreciated the forthright manner that
topics are handled, without kid gloves and the old 'stories'
that keep one on the edge of one's seat, yet unsure of the
truthfulness of them. In fact they dispelled much of the
'mormon fiction', which are many of the heart-warming
stories that 'someone heard from so and so who got it from a
reliable source who heard it from...' myths.  I appreciate
knowing that the doctrines and the TRUTH stands on its own
and doesn't need bogus stories to bolster my faith.  I
really enjoyed the part about the setting for the
restoration and the visions and dreams that were had by
great men and woman who weren't and were never to become (at
least during mortality ) Latter-day Saints.  As I
mentioned before, the Lord loves EVERYONE, and His purposes
are NOT frustrated. Not by Adam/Eve's choices, not by the
peoples in Sodom/Gomorrah, not by Noah's contemporaries, not
by Laban, not by the Tanners or ED Howe.  He is in charge
and everso.  Great to hear from you.  Keep up the humor and
the wonder of being human......

As always,
---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/29/92       11:04 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/29  9:18 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Hi Michael,  I came upon the poetry, (along with some other
amazing stuff) from a woman who gave a talk called 'Father
Adam, Mother Eve'. I can't seem to remember her name at the
present, I lent it out, you know how that goes, but I loved
the poem and copied it down to write up in calligraphy.  She
gave better references than I did.  I just began listening
to the D & C symposium, it has all kinds of wonderful
'stuff'. I really appreciated the forthright manner that
topics are handled, without kid gloves and the old 'stories'
that keep one on the edge of one's seat, yet unsure of the
truthfulness of them. In fact they dispelled much of the
'mormon fiction', which are many of the heart-warming
stories that 'someone heard from so and so who got it from a
reliable source who heard it from...' myths.  I appreciate
knowing that the doctrines and the TRUTH stands on its own
and doesn't need bogus stories to bolster my faith.  I
really enjoyed the part about the setting for the
restoration and the visions and dreams that were had by
great men and woman who weren't and were never to become (at
least during mortality ) Latter-day Saints.  As I
mentioned before, the Lord loves EVERYONE, and His purposes
are NOT frustrated. Not by Adam/Eve's choices, not by the
peoples in Sodom/Gomorrah, not by Noah's contemporaries, not
by Laban, not by the Tanners or ED Howe.  He is in charge
and everso.  Great to hear from you.  Keep up the humor and
the wonder of being human......

As always,
---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        05/30/92        3:03 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     05/30/1992


Andy

Look at the worms squirm in this brand new can!  The idea of
the evolution of Mormon doctrine adds a whole new dimension
to the question at hand.

The church is true.

The doctrines evolve.

Therefore, trueness must be a changing thing.

This dimension of time brings up a host of new questions.
Are there true churches today, that weren't true when DC 1
was penned?  Or visa versa?  Does it make sense at all to
speak of trueness without some kind of qualifier like
"faithful", "living", or "with authority".  Obviously, being
the only true church (if that's even possible)  is not
enough at all.  I think that we have deconstructed the
concept of trueness and it is now time to ask ourselves what
else is required. What does it mean to be a living church?

justice

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/02/92        1:34 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    05/31  4:04 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Amatuer-clus,
   Let us AROUSE those sleepy worms and thrash this out.

   LIVING.  As opposed to what, dead?  That which lives
changes and evolves.  That which never had life remains
static.  That which once lived but is now dead decays.
   Is this a viable framework to get the worm turning?
   I have taken some (well intentioned) heat for claiming
that Mormon doctrine evolves and changes.  "...we believe
that He will yet reveal many great and important things
pertaining to the Kingdom of God."  Please note the words
'great' and 'important.'
   Sounds alive to me.  But it also sounds dangerous.  Any
great or important revelation is sure to set old and
cherished notions on their ear.  Many people would take
offense and leave the church...just like when the blacks got
the priesthood.
   Yet overall, the Lord has been pretty silent these last
several decades.  Bummer.  WHY?

   "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of
the Saints prepared to recieve the things of God; but we
frequently see some of them, after suffering all that they
have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as
soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions:
they cannot stand the fire at all.  How many will be able to
abide the celestial law, and go through and receive their
exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few
are chosen."             --Joseph Smith, HC6:185
   Or, to quote from a song by a terrible and satanic rock
band:  "No changes are permanent.  But change is."




                              \/ Andrew,
                              /\ not for rent.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/02/92        1:35 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/01 12:03 PM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Mike (Proclus):

I am going to make a dumb analogy to help in this discussion
you have started concerning the possibility of more than one
true church.  Or the idea that trueness=evolve or changing,
because it appears that way.
  I remember my math courses. I remember learning line upon
line. I remember getting new things thrown at me every year.

Now I also remember this one math teacher. I had learned to
solve "the derivative" in calculus from a previous course.
Yet this teacher wanted it done his way. I did it my way
anyway, and I got it wrong. Got the right answer, but I got
it wrong, if you know what I mean.

God can do this if a math teacher can!  If He wants to
revoke Polygamy, or the curse of the Priesthood, I think He
has that right. It is His world.
If He wants to flood it, I am not going to complain. Its His
world. And He also has A church. A TRUE Church. The one that
He recognizes.  With the Priesthood authority.

He doesn't change. He merely gives some of His gospel, gives
some tests of faith, and revokes His gospel truths from the
world, if necessary.  It all depends on us. How worthy we
are, and how ready we are for more light and truth. Its all
up there, in His reserve. And its all TRUE, and He doesn't
change. A dynamic church is not a product of a changing God,
but of the changing needs of people.              Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/02/92        1:39 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     06/02/1992


Grant

Was that your testimony?  Nicely done.  Very precise.

surprised?

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/04/92        1:29 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/02  8:18 AM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

If I may quote from a song: "Oh say what is truth? Tis the
fairest gem That the riches of worlds can produce, and
priceless the value of truth will be when the proud
monarch's costliest diadem is counted but dross and refuse.
Yes say what is truth? Tis the brightest prize to which
mortals or Gods can aspire; Go search in the depths witere
it glittering lies or asendin pursuit to the loftiest skies
 Tis an aim fo r the noblest desire. Then say what is truth?
Tis the last and the first, for the limits of time it steps
o'er. Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains
furst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst,
Eternal, unchanged evermore."  So essentially I would agree
with all three of Michael's deffinitions. Each is correct,
but incomplete in it'sself.  True that prior to 1830 they
understood the nature of God differently, but was it
erronous?  No. merely incomplete. God IS a personage of
Spirit. He is ADDITIONALLY more. The gospel is alive,
continuing without end. Joseph was not given every jot and
tittle, nore have we been given all. We have all that we
NEED to know for out own salvation, just not all the 'nice
ot know' facts and truths.  Continuine Revelation is a hard
principle to instill.  Line upon line, precept upon precept
is the way the Lord has always taught.

Blessings,
---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/04/92        3:27 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKSP88A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     06/04/1992


Andy

What does living church mean?  That is exactly what I am
trying to figure out.  I have always wondered about that
question.  I don't think that there are any authoritative
statments out there about it.  Perhaps this is because it
has not been comfortable for people to question the
traditional, albeit sloppy interpretation of DC 1:30.  Many
members believe that this is the only true church.  Why
would they read it any other way?  Why worry?  I'm not so
complacent.  It is profoundly disturbing when people read
things into the scriptures that are not there and state them
as fact.

What is it that so starkly divides the Mormon church from
other churches.  Living may refer to the authority of the
church to act in God's name.  Authority;  the power to lie
to police in the name of God. (oops!, can we puleez have a
little ORDER around here!)

Otherwise, the term living may imply evolving, growing and
changing, ie; continuous revelation.  You are exactly right
in that this means that people are going to get shaken up.
One of the favorites on these boards has been Orson Pratt.
Did you know that he and his wife were excommunicated at
their own request when they found out about plural marraige
and endowments?  They were among Joseph's most trusted
confidants.  They were in the annointed quorum at Nauvoo.
But they left the church because of the new revelation.
Later, after they had a chance to think it through, they
returned to the church.  Orson became an apostle.

The implication of DC 1:30 is this:

Among true churches,  The Mormon church is the only living
church.

OR,

Among living churches,  The Mormon church is the only true
church.

We really need to find out what living is!

writhing
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/04/92        3:27 AM

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:39 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/05 12:15 PM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Grant,
   "dynamic church" and "changing needs"
   Yes!  Only that which lives can be dynamic and can
accomodate change.  I think that you are on to something
here.
   Thinking more on this subject, I reasoned that it is
SPIRIT which separates the live from the dead.  Or in the
case of a church, it would be the presence of the Holy
Spirit or Holy Ghost.  And if we have the True & LIVING
church, the manifestations of that spirit will be present.

   That is where I run into a problem.  The scriptures often
list the pngts of the spirit that should be present in the
LIVING church, but I have yet to witness any of them myself.
And I grew up right here in Mormon Central, in the very
shadow of BYU.  And, for some reason, Moroni 10:4 has just
never worked for me.  Which makes me wonder why I stay on
with the church....there must be SOMETHING there.....   AJM


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:40 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/05  6:04 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Andrew:

I share the same concerns, minus the one about Moroni 10:4
for I have received my witness from that.  But the pngts of
the Spirit in the True and LIVING church are not as present
as they ought to be. And it is because of the people in
general, for the Lord will not work miracles among the
faithless.  Faith precedes the miracle.

So the REAL issue is not so much "why are not the pngts
present" but "why are the people lacking the faith needed to
witness the miracles."

And the problem then becomes: how do we get the people to
build their faith?  How is faith nurtured?  Alma gives a
great analogy and lesson detailed in chapter 32 of his book
in the Book of Mormon.  I might add that it takes DESIRE to
want to know more.  It takes time kneeling and praying to
Heavenly Father, and ASKING for more knowledge and guidance.
By going through these motions with a sincere heart and real
intent, and putting in the necessary sacrifice in doing so,
the Lord makes Himself known, and then things get a lot more
interesting. There is no more boring in the equation. The
evidence comes, and it is equal to a miracle.

Sometimes it takes a long time to get one's self to the
point that the Lord will give the miracle. Enos (in the Book
of Mormon) says that he took ALL DAY before the Lord spoke
to him.  I also remember Spencer W. Kimball's story of when
he received his call to be a special witness of Christ, or
an Apostle.  He said that he prayed fervently to know if he
was really called of the Lord, for he was not sure of it.

He said that he was on his knees 72 hours non-stop, praying
and pleading with the Lord to make it known to him that the
calling was indeed from Him.  He got his witness.

Now how does this apply to us?  Well, if some of us wait on
the Lord in fervent prayer for a half hour, we think that we
have made a great sacrifice.  We may grow tired of waiting.
Through impatience, we miss the opportunity.

It takes FAITH to wait, be patient, and let the Lord answer
in His own due time and in His own way. Are we willing to
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:40 AM
wait on our knees UNTIL the miracle?  Is it worth it to us?
It may not be now, but sorrow awaits in the eternities as
the masses discover what might have been with only a LITTLE
more effort and faith.  Now where can we go to find a few
hours to spend in prayer?
                                     Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:46 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FHCS11A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     06/06/1992


                  ||
              ____||____        Chris;
              ----||----
                  ||                  Magister Templi
                  ||
                  ||
                  ||Mormons{TrueChurch?3
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:49 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/05  8:51 AM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Interesting analogy Grant. May I use one also? Lets say five
of us on these boards all want to climb the Grand Teton in
Wyoming. We get there and start (after breakfast of course)
and climb and climb and climb. We reach a point that one of
two ways can be used. You Grant, say to go west, but I
(Don't you love how in the spirit of brotherhood here I make
us antagonists?) I say climb on the east side of the valley
well we part ways and keep grunting up this Teton!
Eventually you make it to the peak and exult in your
glorious achievement. But, I also eventually make it with my
tenacity and endurance though I chose the harder path. Would
it follow that since I didn't do it your way or any one
else's way by the way, that I DIDN'T make it to the top?
What difference does it make HOW we do it just so we all see
the scenery from the top?

                                Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:49 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/05  7:50 PM

TO:      KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Kerry:

This is a nice analogy that many use to discount the need
for authority in churches.  I think that this analogy fits
many things that we do in this life (like computer
programming for one), but can not fit with the path to
heaven.. Christ Himself taught that straight is the gate
and narrow is the way that leads to Eternal Life.

He did not in any way imply that this path was plural. It
sounds pretty singular to me.

His Apostle Paul taught that there is "One Lord, One Faith,
and One Baptism." Not two or three, or whatever you choose.

The Lord declared to and through Joseph Smith that the
Church of Jesus Christ is the one true and living church
with which He was well pleased, collectively and not individ
ually.  See D&C 1 for this one.

The article of faith reads "We believe that a man must be
called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands, by
those who are in AUTHORITY to preach the gospel and
administer in the ordinances thereof." and this was written
by the modern day prophet Joseph Smith while he yet lived.

This church was restored. It is unlike most all other
churches, which are breakoffs from the Catholic church. They
were not restored. They were just started by well meaning
individuals who had enough of the Spirit to know that what
they were being taught in the main church could not be true.
So they dissented.  But without Divine Authority. They did
start other churches on their own authority.

When the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was
restored through Joseph Smith, there were Heavenly Angels
who came personally to bestow authority and keys to him and
others with him (such as Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon to
name a couple).  Authority was restored. And this is what
makes only one path, even though others seem nice along the
way.  They have a portion of truth, that is true, and this
is why they have people grasping to them. Truth is good. But
truth with authority in the gospel ordinances is more good.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:50 AM

                                                 Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:52 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/05  8:51 AM

TO:      MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Hi Marsha;
Ya know...its been a long time since I've heard that
song...and your point is made with finesse. I liked it. It
also demonstrates what has been argued before on other
boards, namely that Mormonism is evolving. See that's the
Tanners' trump card. If it evolves it changes and hence
falsifies. I disagree. Science also evolves and changes
hopefully for the good. That's the trouble I think many are
having with Christianity now is that it is old, in a bed of
Procrustes, and sitting there dead, entombed in cement,
solidified, and nonmoving. Enough descriptions eh? Things
are still incomplete both with Mormonism and science AND
history come to think of it. So...I liked your board.

                               Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/06/92        6:52 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/05  8:51 AM

TO:      MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Hi Marsha;
Ya know...its been a long time since I've heard that
song...and your point is made with finesse. I liked it. It
also demonstrates what has been argued before on other
boards, namely that Mormonism is evolving. See that's the
Tanners' trump card. If it evolves it changes and hence
falsifies. I disagree. Science also evolves and changes
hopefully for the good. That's the trouble I think many are
having with Christianity now is that it is old, in a bed of
Procrustes, and sitting there dead, entombed in cement,
solidified, and nonmoving. Enough descriptions eh? Things
are still incomplete both with Mormonism and science AND
history come to think of it. So...I liked your board.

                               Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/09/92        1:48 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/02  8:18 AM

TO:      ALL
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

If I may quote from a song: "Oh say what is truth? Tis the
fairest gem That the riches of worlds can produce, and
priceless the value of truth will be when the proud
monarch's costliest diadem is counted but dross and refuse.
Yes say what is truth? Tis the brightest prize to which
mortals or Gods can aspire; Go search in the depths witere
it glittering lies or asendin pursuit to the loftiest skies
 Tis an aim fo r the noblest desire. Then say what is truth?
Tis the last and the first, for the limits of time it steps
o'er. Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains
furst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst,
Eternal, unchanged evermore."  So essentially I would agree
with all three of Michael's deffinitions. Each is correct,
but incomplete in it'sself.  True that prior to 1830 they
understood the nature of God differently, but was it
erronous?  No. merely incomplete. God IS a personage of
Spirit. He is ADDITIONALLY more. The gospel is alive,
continuing without end. Joseph was not given every jot and
tittle, nore have we been given all. We have all that we
NEED to know for out own salvation, just not all the 'nice
ot know' facts and truths.  Continuine Revelation is a hard
principle to instill.  Line upon line, precept upon precept
is the way the Lord has always taught.

Blessings,
---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/09/92        1:50 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/05  8:51 AM

TO:      MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Hi Marsha;
Ya know...its been a long time since I've heard that
song...and your point is made with finesse. I liked it. It
also demonstrates what has been argued before on other
boards, namely that Mormonism is evolving. See that's the
Tanners' trump card. If it evolves it changes and hence
falsifies. I disagree. Science also evolves and changes
hopefully for the good. That's the trouble I think many are
having with Christianity now is that it is old, in a bed of
Procrustes, and sitting there dead, entombed in cement,
solidified, and nonmoving. Enough descriptions eh? Things
are still incomplete both with Mormonism and science AND
history come to think of it. So...I liked your board.

                               Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/09/92        1:51 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/07  8:20 AM

TO:      KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

I think you have said something very significant Kerry. You
essentially said (If I understood you correctly) that
BECAUSE the church is 'changing' it is true, not in spite of
it.  You mentioned that science is vivid and alive because
we are constantly discovering new ways and new thoughts and
new knowledge is available. (I realize I am VERY loosely
quoting you... I hope the sentiment is accurate)  I submit
that the hard word 'UNCHANGING'... includes revelation. God
is and always has been a God of continued revelation. Line
upon line and precept upon precept. Christ came back even
after his death and resurrection to teach the apostles MORE
about the kingdom. It has been said that unless we are
moving forward... we are moving backward. There is NO
standing still.  The continuance of revelationa and
additional intellegence that the Lord continually bestows
upon the world is a large part of His UNCHANGING nature. He
has always incorporated new ways, new laws and new practices
into the CONSTANT, UNCHANGING principles of salvation and
charity and love that is the 'good news'.  Continued
'change' IS part of that nature of God that is UNCHANGING.
Have I totally lost you?  Anyway, I think you are right. If
we had ALL knowledge and ALL truth and ALL that we were to
ever know in 33 AD, Eternity would be an awful long time to
remain as the dead sea... stagnant and without the life that
change brings. The principles are constant, but the way they
are taught are line upon line... ever more increasing,
forever progressing.
---<--@ Marsha


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/09/92        1:54 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/06  8:17 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Mike:

I think Andy said it well when he replied that the term
"living" was probably in reference to the Spirit of the Holy
Ghost. Joseph Smith made a statement to this effect: that
this church was the one with the pngt of the Holy Ghost.
Andy pointed out that it is the spirit within us that makes
us dead or alive.  When our body dies, the spirit leaves.

So it may be with a church. A "living" church is one with
the Spirit within it.

                               Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/09/92        1:55 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/06 12:52 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Mike,
   You just won't let go of this subject, will you?  But
that is OK.  I find myself continually forming new thoughts
and theories on this subject as you and others throw more
comments and questions into the fray.  It is good for me.

  Let us throw yet another couple of definitions into the
cauldron.

   TRUE=having a correct (if not complete) body of dogma.
Or maybe it means at least being plugged into the source of
correct doctrine.

   LIVING=being able to bring about real and positive
spiritual change in people's lives.

   OK, I may be risking some wrath here, but let me make the
assertion that WICCA is a living religion.  WICCA?  You
mean those New Age wackos who worship a Goddess, perform
wacky rituals and do all of this stuff naked?????  YUP!!!!
   Wicca is a religion of INVOLVEMENT.  It is not possible
to simply sit on the sidelines and soak in the procedings
with a moronic look on your face.  You have to chant, dance,
sweat and create ritual right along with everbody else.
And, despite what the detractors of the Wiccans may say, the
majority of their rituals are of a nature to uplift and
improve a person.
   I am currently reading THE SPIRAL DANCE, a basic
introduction to Wicca for the ignorant but curious.  An
interesting book.

   I wonder how the Wiccan magical circle would compare to
the Mormon prayer circle which was once common in the
church, but is now only found in the temple?

                                         \/ Andrew,
                                         /\ pagan.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/11/92        1:59 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       BXXF11A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     06/11/1992


Andy

I think it is fascinating that analogies of Life are being
used to describe the living church.  It seems that the
living church may actually be a vital entity, a body with an
indwelling spirit.  It reminds me of the times in the
scriptures where the Church is described as a Woman.
Perhaps the living church has something to do with Heavenly
Mother.

This would explain why other groups, like the Wiccans, who
recognize the Goddess seem to be more living than Mormonism.
The presence of a participatory body of ritual becomes
another parallel.  Many members fail to realize that the
temple rite is just as much about the Goddess as it is about
the God.  He would not be a living God without Goddess.  He
would be impotent, just like the God of Xtianity.
Revelation always reminds me of Atu XVII.  Under a bright
and starry sky, a woman pours water into a clear pool and
onto the springtime earth.  Her gestures are those of a
healer - one who can soothe away pain.  In the right
background a bird sits in a tree and sings.   "... the
doctrine of the priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as
the dews from heaven."

His and Hers living churches

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/11/92        2:01 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     06/11/1992


Grant

So, the concensus seems to be emerging that it is not the
authority, per se, that makes a living church.  Rather, a
living church is adaptable. It recieves continuous
revelation.  If it were just the authority, our claims would
be equivalent with those of Catholicism.

et comms

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/11/92        2:02 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/10  2:40 PM

TO:      MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Hi Marsha;
I thought you loosely quoted me pretty good. O.K. so it
seems that science and Mormonism are pretty much
philosophically oh... lets say meshing for lask of a better
word. But why is it so significant? You jumped right on that
as I expected several more to do. No...so why? Well let me
submit what I have been told before (by you I believe...)
if one looks, one can find the true and accept it, likewise
with whats wrong with a system (in this case Mormonism).
Since the progressivism (a good word apparently) of
Mormonism jives, you (and I) think "Hey Alright! We have
something here." Well, I won't refute it since I brought it
up. No, I think there are good things in Mormonism. I mean
what better ideology (not idiotology)? Reality is different
than ideology, and I think always will be because we ARE
human.
     Let me propose another thought that is equally valid,
as well as equally startling. I turn to Joseph Campbell,
"The Power of Myth", (pgs.95ff), wherein he is telling Bill
Moyers his wonderous experiences of the Chartres Cathedral.
Moyers asks him what he finds there. His reply is at once
startling. It takes him back to when spiritual principles
informed the society. "You can tell what informs a society
by what the tallest building is." He mentions that the
cathedrals in the medieval towns was the tallest thing in
the place. Well coming up to the 18th century towns, its the
political palace that has become the tallest place. Ah... a
shift. And now in the modern cities, it is the tallest
palaces of the office buildings, "the centers of economic
life." He says when you go to Salt Lake City the whole
thing is right in front of your eyes! First the temple was
built, right in the center of the city. This is proper since
it was the temple that informed the society. The spiritual
center. Then the political building, the capitol, was
built.And its taller than the temple. And now the tallest
thing that informs the society is what? The Church Office
Building that "takes care of the affairs of both the temple
and political building."
     When I let my sister in law read this she replied "That
makes me sad!" See Mormonism has evolved, but is it
progressive? Yes...in a financial, economic sense perhaps
(though it is the scam capitol of the world). Is it
progressive spiritually? No. The empirical evidence is there
for all to see as Campbell rightly noted. Well, from the
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/11/92        2:02 AM
Mormon view thats bad, but thats just the way it is! All one
has to do is go there and see... So I would suggest that if
concentrating on the good is a criteria for truth, then all
religions are true. One can find good in any of them, but
does that mean they are all true? One can find bad in all of
them, but does that falsify them all? Besides, good and bad
are human value judgements. What is good for some is bad to
others, see... It's interesting. Like a kid in Priesthood
meeting said last week. Carlos E. Asay told them when they
were in Saudie Arabia that the Koran was true, it was
scripture, and Mohammed actually received revelation and
wrote scripture. Yet it teaches reincarnation (negative to
Mormons) and that Jesus is and was NOT the SON of God, but a
rather good prophet only, (another negative). Yet its been
said by an Apostle to be scripture. So where are we? Who to
listen to and believe? Rhetoric? Truth? Scripture? Science?
Philosphy? Ourselves???           Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:04 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/11  7:50 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Well Mike:

It kind of is the authority too...here's why...

There is a scripture that says in the DOctrine and Covenants
to the effect that "when a man exercises unrighteous
dominion, AMEN to the authority of that man."  As long as
there is righteousness, the authority will sustain.

It was because of wickedness and the subsequent loss of the
SPirit (living part) that the authority was also lost. Amen
to their authority as they commit whoredoms and change the
gospel and grind on the faces of the poor.

The prophets and apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ
today are keeping clear of these things, as I see it, and
their authority also remains.
                                         Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:07 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/13  9:31 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Proclus,
   To butcher and old saying, "Behind every succesful god,
is a shining goddess."
   Is the church patriarchal in nature because that is the
way Godess/God wants it?  Or is it because that is the only
way the church could make it in a patriarchal society?
   Modern society is, slowly and painfully, moving out of
its old male dominated pattern into......what??  Salt Lake
City currently has a woman mayor, fer cryin' out loud!  And
if she can survive the Bonneville Pacific scandal, she might
even hang around long enough to leave her mark on the city.

So, who is this Goddess?  And why should the worship of Her
make a religion more lively than the worship of Him?

According to Brigham Young, Goddess was none other than
mother Eve. {And God was Adam, but that is another can of
worms.  Let us not digress.}  Others say that she was Mary,
the mother of Christ.  Or should I use the more common
phrase, "Mother of God?"

Hmmmmmm.  "Mother of God."  Again I say, hmmmmmm.  That
would, in a way, put Mary equal to, or higher than, God.
After all, if she is, as the Catholics say, the Queen of
Heaven.......

And, back to Eve, she was called the Mother of ALL Living.
Does all mean ALL?  Just as God is the Father of ALL
creation?
  The whole point behind the Wiccan worship of the Goddess
is that she is the source of all, the Mother of all Living.
We begin our lives within Her womb.  We become aware of life
only after passing through Her birth canal.  And we look to
Her breasts for nourishment and security.
  Yes, the Wiccans believe in a male god, but He is
significant only in those ways that he relates to the
Goddess.

   And consider that the ultimate goal of Mormon theology,
the grand prize that sets Exaltation apart from mere
Salvation, is that the Exalted Ones will have the power to
procreate.  Procreation is principally the domain of the
woman.  Or the Goddess.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:07 AM
Boy, it sure is a coincidence that I just happen to be
reading THE SPIRAL DANCE when this discussion of the Goddess
pops up.  {To the magician, there is no such thing as
coincidence.  --From D. Michael Quinn's magnum opus.}

                              \/ Andrew,
                              /\ beholding Nuit.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:11 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/10  2:40 PM

TO:      MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
FROM:    KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Hi Marsha;
I thought you loosely quoted me pretty good. O.K. so it
seems that science and Mormonism are pretty much
philosophically oh... lets say meshing for lask of a better
word. But why is it so significant? You jumped right on that
as I expected several more to do. No...so why? Well let me
submit what I have been told before (by you I believe...)
if one looks, one can find the true and accept it, likewise
with whats wrong with a system (in this case Mormonism).
Since the progressivism (a good word apparently) of
Mormonism jives, you (and I) think "Hey Alright! We have
something here." Well, I won't refute it since I brought it
up. No, I think there are good things in Mormonism. I mean
what better ideology (not idiotology)? Reality is different
than ideology, and I think always will be because we ARE
human.
     Let me propose another thought that is equally valid,
as well as equally startling. I turn to Joseph Campbell,
"The Power of Myth", (pgs.95ff), wherein he is telling Bill
Moyers his wonderous experiences of the Chartres Cathedral.
Moyers asks him what he finds there. His reply is at once
startling. It takes him back to when spiritual principles
informed the society. "You can tell what informs a society
by what the tallest building is." He mentions that the
cathedrals in the medieval towns was the tallest thing in
the place. Well coming up to the 18th century towns, its the
political palace that has become the tallest place. Ah... a
shift. And now in the modern cities, it is the tallest
palaces of the office buildings, "the centers of economic
life." He says when you go to Salt Lake City the whole
thing is right in front of your eyes! First the temple was
built, right in the center of the city. This is proper since
it was the temple that informed the society. The spiritual
center. Then the political building, the capitol, was
built.And its taller than the temple. And now the tallest
thing that informs the society is what? The Church Office
Building that "takes care of the affairs of both the temple
and political building."
     When I let my sister in law read this she replied "That
makes me sad!" See Mormonism has evolved, but is it
progressive? Yes...in a financial, economic sense perhaps
(though it is the scam capitol of the world). Is it
progressive spiritually? No. The empirical evidence is there
for all to see as Campbell rightly noted. Well, from the
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:11 AM
Mormon view thats bad, but thats just the way it is! All one
has to do is go there and see... So I would suggest that if
concentrating on the good is a criteria for truth, then all
religions are true. One can find good in any of them, but
does that mean they are all true? One can find bad in all of
them, but does that falsify them all? Besides, good and bad
are human value judgements. What is good for some is bad to
others, see... It's interesting. Like a kid in Priesthood
meeting said last week. Carlos E. Asay told them when they
were in Saudie Arabia that the Koran was true, it was
scripture, and Mohammed actually received revelation and
wrote scripture. Yet it teaches reincarnation (negative to
Mormons) and that Jesus is and was NOT the SON of God, but a
rather good prophet only, (another negative). Yet its been
said by an Apostle to be scripture. So where are we? Who to
listen to and believe? Rhetoric? Truth? Scripture? Science?
Philosphy? Ourselves???           Kerry A. Shirts


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:12 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/11 11:09 AM

TO:      KERRY SHIRTS   (CWXH30A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Kerry,
   Your comments about the church office building struck a
chord with me.  You and I seem to resonate well with our
"bad atitudes" about the church and certain leaders within
it (Oaks, Hinckley, etc).

   But I see another side to it, even if I don't mention it
too often.  The big thing is The Gospel.  That is what
changes lives and brings God's children back to him.  The
Church, on the other hand, is a necessary evil that has been
formed in order to spread The Gospel.  After all, the Gospel
that I preached in Pennsylvania and New Jersey was no less
true just because I had to put up with a lousy system and a
moronic mission president while I was preaching it.

   To rephrase Mike Love's note that started this subject,
let us ask this:  "Is it the TRUE and LIVING gospel?"  And
if the answer is yes, then how much does "the church"
matter?  Or is there really a difference?  Or, better yet,
if all Mormons actually lived The Gospel, I mean REALLY
LIVED it, would we even need the church?  Hmmm.  Maybe I
will have to REALLY LIVE The Gospel some time and find
out......   In the mean time, I guess the church will have
to keep on holding The Gospel out in front of me until I
take the plunge.

    Anyway, to steal a quote from a letter that Proclus sent
me some time ago, "When you strip away the stucture, it
is the Family of God that remains."  Or something like that.
  It is good to see what your thoughts are, Kerry.  Please
keep them coming.
                                   \/Andrew,
                                   /\stiffnecked (alas!)

PS Marsha:  Thanks for putting up with people like Kerry and
me.  It is nice to have sympathetic ear to yack at.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:14 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/11  3:55 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    MARSHA STEED   (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Andrew and Kerry, and Micheal too, you guys are great.
Really!  I enjoy your thoughtful posts and your honesty.  I
am in agreement with much of what you say. It is very
interesting that we are told that after this life there will
be NO 'MORMON CHURCH' at all. As you Andrew or Proclus?
stated, only the family of God will be left, without the
structure that is here only to bring us to Christ.  It is
 NOT perfect, nor can it be, as run by poor imperfect men..
(now maybe if it was run by women??... (JK)  But as Andrew
stated, it is after all the GOSPEL that brings truth and
light.  Kerry asked, 'whom do we trust'.... the answer is
simple Kerry, THE LORD. That is why we are given prayer, and
a direct line to Him. We are not left to just read and then
leave it to ourselves or paid 'scholars' to discern. HE IS
THERE FOR US PERSONALLY. Whatever someone says they heard an
apostle say, or what someone else thinks really doesn't
matter. We have the PROPHET, the SCRIPTURES and most
importantly... PERSONAL REVELATION from Prayer. ---<--@ MS


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:15 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/11  7:48 PM

TO:      QUINN ROBINSON   (SHNJ87E)
FROM:    DANIEL JENKINS   (KGWR00A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

My goodness, you ask for harmony, understanding, peace and
goodwill and then you make this statement that Islam is in a
some sort of temporary holding pattern awaiting the great
truth of Mormonism.  Do you have any idea how a Muslim might
regard such an assertion?
                                          Dan
                                       Sura-prised


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:16 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/11  7:57 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    ANDREW HALL   (HXSJ39A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Andrew-
   Whoa!  What an attitude!  Just kidding.  The system is a
"neceessary evil," I guess, but look where the Church would
be without it?  There has to be some kind of structure.  But
I do agree somewhat with your saying that the Gospel of
Jesus Christ is the real thing, and not the system of the
Church.  There is a lot of beauraucracy, but with a Church
of 7 million+ it's necessary.
  You're in Provo?  That's where I used to live.  Good old
"Pineview" apartments!  I also lived at 132 E. 500 N., if
you know where that is.


                                         Andy
                                    (The handsome one!)Mormons{TrueChurch?4
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/16/92        2:17 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/12 11:54 AM

TO:      DANIEL JENKINS   (KGWR00A)
FROM:    ANDREW HALL   (HXSJ39A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Dan-
  I was in the Middle East a few times and I can tell you
that a Muslim would definitely take offense to the idea that
Islam is a forerunner to Mormonism (that's putting it mild-
ly).
                                  Andy
                        (formerly of Al-Khobar towers)


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/19/92       11:27 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/18  9:15 AM

TO:      GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
FROM:    MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Grant

You are now missing the point.  There is something more to a
true and living church than the authority of men.  First of
all, if you think that authority alone gives men some
mystical power to stay clear of oppression, then you didn't
pay attention to the discussions in MORMON MURDERS.  A
picture emerged of men who serve the church over and above
the Master.  Kerry's analogy of the temple being in the
shadow of the church office building is apt.  That certain
of the Brethren do this cannot now be disputed.  That's
unrighteous dominion and these men have no more authority
over the church than Mickey Mouse.  Authority was purchased
with the Christ's atonement and requires constant vigilance
on the part of priesthood holders.

Futhermore, authority is but a small aspect of what makes a
true and living church.  Revelation does not depend on that
authority.  Neither does devotion to the faith.  Nor does
the pursuit of knowledge.  Why are the Church archives
closed.  What are they hiding from us.  Our heretage is
being brushed under the rug so that the Church can shine
forth squeaky clean with much mass appeal.  The pearl has
lost its luster.

handlers

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/19/92       11:28 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/18  6:23 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    GRANT JOHNSON   (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Mike:

What do you mean that authority was purchased with Christ's
Atonement?  That sounds like a borderline Born Again
statement, where everything is swollowed up in Christ,
including our individuality.  Not for me.
   I know that authority is just a part of the true and
living church.  I have previously posted the analogy of this
true church being compared to a piano keyboard, and I have
always thought of AUTHORITY as just ONE of those "88" keys
on the "piano."

Sure authority is just a part, but it is a foundational part
and the foundation upon which all things must rest. FIRST
and foremost comes the authority, and then the others are
also on the sure foundation, where Christ is the chief
cornerstone, and the others are Apostles and Prophets. See
Ephesians 2:20 which says this if you don't believe this.
It is not a Mormon doctrine, but a biblical one that most
throw out as they reject the Spirit which manifests the
truth of it, if they would hear it.

I was just trying to place AUTHORITY on the foundation,
where it belongs.  Not trying to say that it is the main and
most important part.  If we really thought that way in such
a pompous manner, then the D&C teaches "Amen to the
authority of that man."  And might I add, if we insinuate
that the Apostles fall into this category, "Amen to the
church of that generation."  Since I know that the Spirit
still resides in this church, for I feel it in great
manifestation each time I hear the Apostles and Prophets
speak to us every six months at conference, then I may also
KNOW that they still have their authority and the Lord still
finds them a worthy enough vessel to serve as the vehicle
through which He will communicate His holy mind and will
concerning us.  The words which they speak come from God,
and the Spirit makes manifest of this. I am speaking from
personal experience, testifying of the truthfulness of this.

Whatever the church leaders are alleged to have done in the
book Mormon Murders is mute, if the Spirit is still
operating through these men.  The testimony of the Spirit
does not agree with the biased opinions expressed in the
book Mormon Murders.  It can't be both ways and make sense
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/19/92       11:28 PM
spiritually.

                   Grant


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/19/92       11:32 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:    BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO:       FKGS58A
SUBJECT:  MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?
DATE:     06/19/1992


Grant

You better get this straight.  If it weren't for Christ,
there would be no authority.  If there was a authority, we
would not hold it without Christ.  If we had the authority,
we could not use it without Christ.  If we used it, it
wouldnUt work without Christ.  Authority is dispensed
through the Church by revelation.  It is Christ's church.
He gives the revelation.  He is definitely not one of 88
keys.  First and foremost comes revelation, not authority.
If you don't believe this, check the Joseph Smith story.
I've read Eph 2:20.  I've also read that the church is built
on the rock of revelation in the latter days.

You say that certain men still have their authority.  Big
Deal.  So does our lame duck president.  The Mormon
Corporate Empire is a very big cup and it seems that there
are those who have drunken to their own damnation.  The
amount of power and money that we are talking about here is
an open invitation to corruption.  It does happen.  The
institution has flaws.

With regard to the spirit of your post, I am not denying the
truthfulness of the Church.  I suppose that I know that
better today than I have ever known it.  Meanwhile, we have
shown that there is alot more to God's church than mere
truth or authority.  Let's find out what it is and go for
it.
living

proclus


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/19/92       11:34 PM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/18  9:20 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    STEWART GARLAND   (JJMH50A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Are you an excommunicated Mormon?  If not, what church
membership do you hold that meets regularly?


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/23/92        2:26 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/20 10:59 AM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

Proclus,
   I noticed an odd reaction in Grant's last note.  You put
Christ's atonement up as the central point of the Gospel and
the church, and Grant shied away from it.  Grant is only one
of a multitude of Mormons that I have seen do this.  It
mystifies me.  It nags at me.  It isn't right, and yet it is
almost the 'modus operandi' of the church.  And, darnit, I
can't figure out WHY so many of us Mormons do it.  I also do
this...all too often.

I'm gonna have to think about this.

                                           \/ Andrew....
                                           /\

PS If and when you answer Mr Garland's question....Lie.
Let's give the poor man a "head test."


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/23/92        2:26 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/20  4:03 PM

TO:      ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
FROM:    STEPHENIE ORRIS   (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS{TRUE CHURCH?

I noticed Grant's 'perdicament'  as well. Hmmmmmmmmmm.


PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service        06/23/92        2:40 AM
         ARTS CLUB
TOPIC:   BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME:    06/20  3:57 PM

TO:      MICHAEL LOVE   (BXXF11A)
FROM:    ANDREW MCGUIRE   (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: SPIRAL DANCE

Proclus,
   I like the similarities between the "Washing and
Annointing" that precedes the Mormon temple endowment and
the Wiccan "Five Fold Kiss."  Methinks us Mormons are more
pagan than we ever imagined....
                                            \/ St Andrew,
                                            /\ puckering.

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