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Subject:
political quiz
Date:
Fri, 15 May 1998 14:09:34 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus ,
rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus
My brother Shawn told me about this webpage not long ago. It is a very
short political quiz. I was shocked to learn that I am an ELLL, extreme
left liberal libertarian. I have really been in denial for years. ;-}.
So if you want to take the quiz, here is the address. Let us know how
it turns out.
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
If you beleive the results of the survey, the real argument in America
right now is between the libertarian majority and the center. It
actually makes a kind of sense, in a way. Go cast yer vote.
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
[Fwd: political quiz]
Date:
Fri, 15 May 1998 14:41:01 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus ,
rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus
Subject:
RE: political quiz
Date:
Fri, 15 May 1998 14:23:43 -0400
From:
"McGuire, Andy"
To:
'Michael Love'
I am a Left Liberal who is peering over the fence into Libertarian Land.
-AJ
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Love [SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 1998 12:10 PM
> To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve
> Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man;
> onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black;
> Theurgus
> Subject: political quiz
>
> My brother Shawn told me about this webpage not long ago. It is a
> very
> short political quiz. I was shocked to learn that I am an ELLL,
> extreme
> left liberal libertarian. I have really been in denial for years.
> ;-}.
>
> So if you want to take the quiz, here is the address. Let us know how
> it turns out.
>
> http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
>
> If you beleive the results of the survey, the real argument in America
> right now is between the libertarian majority and the center. It
> actually makes a kind of sense, in a way. Go cast yer vote.
>
> proclus
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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> r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
Re: political quiz
Date:
Fri, 15 May 1998 14:55:24 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus ,
rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus
References:
1
Andy! What a voyeur you are! HeeHEE, I'm sitting on the fence.
proclus
Michael Love wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: political quiz
> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:23:43 -0400
> From: "McGuire, Andy"
> To: 'Michael Love'
>
> I am a Left Liberal who is peering over the fence into Libertarian Land.
> -AJ
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Love [SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
> > Sent: Friday, May 15, 1998 12:10 PM
> > To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve
> > Swick III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth any; proclus; rpc man;
> > onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; Dave; Robert R. Black;
> > Theurgus
> > Subject: political quiz
> >
> > My brother Shawn told me about this webpage not long ago. It is a
> > very
> > short political quiz. I was shocked to learn that I am an ELLL,
> > extreme
> > left liberal libertarian. I have really been in denial for years.
> > ;-}.
> >
> > So if you want to take the quiz, here is the address. Let us know how
> > it turns out.
> >
> > http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
> >
> > If you beleive the results of the survey, the real argument in America
> > right now is between the libertarian majority and the center. It
> > actually makes a kind of sense, in a way. Go cast yer vote.
> >
> > proclus
> >
> > --
> > Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > Version: 3.1
> > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
> > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> > r+++ y++++
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Books
Date:
Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:44 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus , rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" , "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus , Brian Love ,
Michael Love , Julie Love ,
"Shawn M. Love" ,
Cyrus Love
I'm accumulating some summer reading. Any opinions out there about the
following books. According to Amazon, I should love them. I think that
I am pegged and pidgeon-holed by web commerce robots!
proclus
Pandora : New Tales of the Vampires; Anne Rice
Science and the Secrets of Nature : Books
of Secrets in
Medieval and Early Modern Culture; William
Eamon
One World, Ready or Not : The Manic Logic of
Global
Capitalism; William Greider
The Commanding Self; Idries Shah
Subject:
Books
Date:
Wed, 20 May 1998 21:49:13 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, Dave , "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus , Brian Love ,
Michael Love , Julie Love ,
"Shawn M. Love" ,
Cyrus Love
Hey, I LOVED Bro.'. Art's review of "Deadly Deception" on the Amazon site.
More evenhanded than he deserved, I might add.
JSW
Subject:
Mahonri and the AUB
Date:
Wed, 20 May 1998 22:25:37 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Dave , Michael Love
CC:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge , Beth any ,
rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus
___Comment___
mahonri is the list run by a fundamentalist polygomy group in Manti or
perhaps the Allred's group.
---
Just "FYI" -- Mahonri is a private list run by Nathan C. Taylor, who is a
Mormon Fundamentalist living in Great Britain. He is associated with the
Apostolic United Brethren (the "Allred Group"), and runs a list for those
with a general interest in Mormon Fundamentalism. The discussion is not
limited to an AUB perspective.
Be aware that Mahonri is NOT sponsored, approved or run by the AUB. In fact,
there are those "in the Work" who are quite uncomfortable with the idea of a
website. From conversations I have had with members of that group, this is
because they feel that they have been charged NOT to proselytize (this is
the purpose of the Church), and a website seems to run counter to this
charge.
For those with Enquiring minds....
Regards,
JSW
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
To: Michael Love
Cc: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire
R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve Swick
III ArtdeHoyos Randall Shortridge
Beth any rpc man
onandagus@webtv.net
Neoptolmus@aol.com Robert R. Black
?.3365@compuserve.com> Theurgus
Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Any info on what the scourage is?]
>
>
>>
>???
>
>I would assume (dangerous, I know) that the Glenn Pace memo is the one
>floating around for several years now on ritual sexual abuse in the
>church. I have a copy printed out, but, I do not know that it is
>authentic. I think I know someone who could send me an e-copy if anyone is
>interested. Glen Pace is now in the 1st Q of 70; formerly was in the PB.
>
>
>Dave
>
>Dave Combe
>dcombe@rain.org
>
>
>On Wed, 20 May 1998, Michael Love wrote:
>
>> After reading this, I am having second thoughts about admitting George.
>> If anyone else objects, I think we should drop the matter. Maybe I am
>> being too judgmental, but I don't think that his questions come up to
>> the level of inquiry that that we have enjoyed. Does anyone know what
>> he is talking about regarding this Pace memo?
>>
>> proclus
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
>> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>> Version: 3.1
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>> PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
>> r+++ y++++
>> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
>
Subject:
Re: Mahonri and the AUB
Date:
Wed, 20 May 1998 22:43:55 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Dave
To:
Joe Steve Swick III
CC:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus
On Wed, 20 May 1998, Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> ___Comment___
> mahonri is the list run by a fundamentalist polygomy group in Manti or
> perhaps the Allred's group.
> ---
>
> Just "FYI" -- Mahonri is a private list run by Nathan C. Taylor, who is a
> Mormon Fundamentalist living in Great Britain. He is associated with the
> Apostolic United Brethren (the "Allred Group"), and runs a list for those
> with a general interest in Mormon Fundamentalism. The discussion is not
> limited to an AUB perspective.
>
> Be aware that Mahonri is NOT sponsored, approved or run by the AUB. In fact,
> there are those "in the Work" who are quite uncomfortable with the idea of a
> website. From conversations I have had with members of that group, this is
> because they feel that they have been charged NOT to proselytize (this is
> the purpose of the Church), and a website seems to run counter to this
> charge.
>
I am in semi-regular e-correspondence with a friend who was exed from the
LDS church and has joined the AUP. We are about the same age (maybe I'm
two years older) and we have known each other since we were teens in the
same ward in So CA.
I sometimes "feel" proselytized by him. Can you explain to me Joe WHY
they don't proselytize?
Dave
Dave Combe
dcombe@rain.org
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave
> To: Michael Love
> Cc: Andy Mcguire Kathleen McGuire
> R. Trent Reynolds Joe Steve Swick
> III ArtdeHoyos Randall Shortridge
> Beth any rpc man
> onandagus@webtv.net
> Neoptolmus@aol.com Robert R. Black
> ?.3365@compuserve.com> Theurgus
> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Any info on what the scourage is?]
>
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >???
> >
> >I would assume (dangerous, I know) that the Glenn Pace memo is the one
> >floating around for several years now on ritual sexual abuse in the
> >church. I have a copy printed out, but, I do not know that it is
> >authentic. I think I know someone who could send me an e-copy if anyone is
> >interested. Glen Pace is now in the 1st Q of 70; formerly was in the PB.
> >
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >Dave Combe
> >dcombe@rain.org
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 20 May 1998, Michael Love wrote:
> >
> >> After reading this, I am having second thoughts about admitting George.
> >> If anyone else objects, I think we should drop the matter. Maybe I am
> >> being too judgmental, but I don't think that his questions come up to
> >> the level of inquiry that that we have enjoyed. Does anyone know what
> >> he is talking about regarding this Pace memo?
> >>
> >> proclus
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> >> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> >> Version: 3.1
> >> GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
> >> PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> >> r+++ y++++
> >> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> >
> >
>
>
Subject:
Re: Mahonri and the AUB
Date:
Wed, 20 May 1998 23:40:28 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Dave
CC:
Michael Love , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
ArtdeHoyos , Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , rpc man , onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>, Theurgus
___Dave___
I am in semi-regular e-correspondence with a friend who was exed from the
LDS church and has joined the AUP. We are about the same age (maybe I'm two
years older) and we have known each other since we were teens in the same
ward in So CA.
I sometimes "feel" proselytized by him. Can you explain to me Joe WHY they
don't proselytize?
-----
Yes. It is because the Church is "sufficient" for most members, who could
not bear the weight and burden of Celestial law. Yet the Lord still guides
us as far as we are willing to be lead, and those who have been prepared by
revelation to receive the fulness of the Gospel, will be lead to where the
fulness of the ordinances may be found. There is no need to proselyte men
to receive the higher ordinances, --no need to proselyte them into the
Church of the Firstborn. Those whom the Lord prepares are able to walk by
the light of revelation, and "need not that any man teach them" (1 John
2:27) the way; they know of themselves, and have received of heaven keys of
knowledge sufficient to lead them to the Celestial Kingdom.
In his much-quoted talk, "The Position of the Priesthood in Relation to the
Church," Rulon Allred stated:
"I declare that the Church officers ... and the ... General authorities are
sustained by me and by God as the head of His Church today. The members of
the Church are the elect of God, gathered out from all the earth and are the
most righteous people on the earth. The majority of the members accept all
of the revelations and principles of the gospel in their hearts, but most of
them dare not or are not strong enough to live them.
"The only reason we are meeting outside of the Church is because of a
special revelation given to President John Taylor. The Lord Jesus Christ
and the Prophet Joseph Smith ... [outlined and laid] the steps to keep alive
the higher principles of the gospel. President Taylor was commanded to set
apart men and confer upon them the powers of the Priesthood required to
officiate in [the fulness of the ordinances]. He gave them the authority
and the responsibility to keep those principles alive....
"Many of those who claim to be Saints ridicule and condemn the Church....
Joseph Musser told us to cease condemning the Church and judging it, but to
turn our eyes inward and judge our own actions and improve our own lives.
We had better be careful when we sit in judgement on the Church. God will do
this, and He will separate the wicked from the righteous, whether in the
Church or out of it.... (Treasures of Knowledge Vol1. p.1-3)
The feeling seems to be that while the Church has rejected the fulness of
the Gospel, She is still the only true Church on the face of the earth. To
proselytize is to assume a responsibility that the Lord has entrusted to the
Church, whereas "the Group" is only responsible to pick up those principles
the Church has chosen to lay aside. For those who are willing to pay the
price, the fulness of the Gospel is ever available, just as the Lord
revealed it to the first Prophet of this dispensation, "never again to be
taken from the earth."
I believe that this accurately reflects the views of the AUB.
Warmest Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III
Subject:
Books
Date:
Fri, 22 May 1998 17:15:46 -0400
From:
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>
To:
Michael Love
CC:
Beth any ,
Artdel-Hoyos , Beth ,
Don Bradley , Dave ,
Gaia , George ,
rpc man ,
Andy McGuire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"R. Trent Reyolds" ,
Ken Shaw ,
Randall Shortridge ,
Joe Steve Swick III
> Pandora : New Tales of the Vampires; Anne Rice
Anne Rice writes novels about Vampires. One of her stories was made into a
movie. But I generally avoid them.
> The Commanding Self; Idries Shah
I like his book on The Sufis. But have not cared for his stories that most
of the rest of his books contain. Don't get me wrong. I did like very much
his stories about the shipbuilders and his story about the little stream.
But if his book "The Commanding Self" is just a collection of stories, then
I don't need it. If otherwise, then please let me know.
As for the rest of the books, I know nothing about them. Again, let me know
if they are worth reading.
Robert.
Subject:
bundle
Date:
Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:22:11 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
proclus@mac.com
Subject:
Mutants and Robert Black
Date:
Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:39:41 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org,
74277.3365@compuserve.com
Hi Everybody!
Things have gotten real quiet out there. It sure would be nice if
y'all would check in and let us know how you're doin'.
I've been listening to the Sunstone tapes on "Mormon Gnosticism"
that Beth sent me, and I have to say that I'm feeling a deeper love
for how far out Joseph Smith really is all the time.
Robert, if you see this, would you consider sending you phone # again?
I think I'm ready to talk things over now.
I hope to hear from y'all soon.
Ken Shaw
Subject:
Re: [m-kabbalah] Kabbalism and Corporeality of God
Date:
Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:41:54 -0500
From:
kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
m-kabbalah@makelist.com, criag@simons-rock.edu
CC:
younbarb@isu.edu, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com, bbrandt@ichips.intel.com, proclus@mac.com
Craig,
I would like to make a few points:
1) In spite of Clark Goble's "mainstream" LDS polemic against
the Prophet's "involvement" with Ceremonial Magic ALL OF HIS
LIFE, the evidence is overwhelming. The practice of Ceremonial
Magic is also known as "practical Kabbalah", that is, Kabbalah
meant to produce effects in the material world. You should start
your study where the Prophet did, with the Ceremonial Magic of
Renaissance England, starting with Francis Barret's book "The Magus".
Practical Kabbalah is the "applied technology" of religion, and
covers just enough theory to get the job done, but THAT is the
metaphysical starting point of all Mormon Doctrine.
2) The Prophet was mudered shortly after giving the King Follet Discourse,
he was taken from us before he could explain the whole thing to us
clearly.
3) The Kabbalah didn't spring into existance in the Middle Ages, it has
been in continuous development from remotest antiquity, even showing
up in the stories of Genesis. It is a complete and coherent system,
and is as sophisticated as the great systems of the East like Buddhism
and Vedanta.
4) The Mormon system is fragmentary and "orphaned" because we where cut
of from the source of the teaching early on.
5) The "Ein Sof" isn't the "Head God" of the King Follet Discourse, but
rather Brigham Young's concept of "That Which Is", in other words,
the "Absolute Ground of Being" from which ALL phenomon arises. Ein
Sof is the same as the Buddhist concept of "The Clear Light", and
is the same as the original understanding of the meaning of YHVH,
"Existence As Such".
Kenneth Shaw
Subject:
[Fwd: [Fwd: [m-kabbalah] Kabbalism and Corporeality of God]]
Date:
Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:37:03 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
[Fwd: [m-kabbalah] Kabbalism and Corporeality of God]
Date:
Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:33:27 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: [m-kabbalah] Kabbalism and Corporeality of God
Date:
Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:36:52 -0500
From:
kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
m-kabbalah@makelist.com, criag@simons-rock.edu
CC:
younbarb@isu.edu, sefirot1@aol.com, CYeshua@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, bbrandt@ichips.intel.com
> From criag@simons-rock.edu Thu Jun 11 13:29:50 1998
> From: Craig Jolley
> X-Sender: criag@plato
> To: Ken Shaw
> Subject: Re: [m-kabbalah] Kabbalism and Corporeality of God
> In-Reply-To: ?.KAA15416@laytex.eng.cyrix.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> X-Lines: 66
>
>
> > I'm not a professional scholar, I'm just a workin' stiff doing
> > this email thing on the sly at work, so I don't have references
> > at my fingertips. But I did spend most of the Eighties immersed
> > in the study of earliest Mormonism, and I can tell you that the
> > modern LDS doctrine that Joseph is "just a Prophet like any other"
> > and that the current "leaders" have every pngt and power that he
> > had, was invented in the twentieth century for political reasons.
>
> What reasons, exactly? I can imagine a few possible ones, such as wanting
> to play down the role of Joseph in order to make the church appear less
> like a personality cult to those who might misunderstand his role, but I
> don't want to jump to conclusions.
The first generation of Mormons believed that the Second Coming of Christ
would happen within their lifetime. Joseph Smith prayed to know the time
of the Second Coming and was told that if he lived till 1890 he would see
it. I believe that the Utah Church gritted it's collective teeth and held
on until 1890, but when push came to shove they lost their nerve in the face
of the US Government. My understanding, based on my studies of the period,
is that the leaders of Utah had to cut a deal with the Feds to get Statehood.
This deal included (1) the abandondoment of the "Law of Gathering", that
is the doctrine that all the Saints where to move to the Great Basin, (2)
the abandonment of all cooperative and self-suficiency oriented economic
enterprises (Orderville in southern Utah was forcibly disbanded) (3) and
the disolution of the Church's political party. Since Joseph Smith and
his immediate deciples had stated flatly that Salvation is only possible
by seperating from the world so as to "not patake of her iniquities and
recieve her curses", the next generation of church leaders had to take
the position that Joseph Smith was simply WRONG on that count, and that
THEY now knew the true mind and will of God by virtue of their "prophethood".
> > Brigham Young, John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff didn't believe that
> > they had any authority to alter any of the teachings or intentions
> > of Joseph, because Joseph stood at the head of the Dispensation as
> > the connecting link to Father Adam through Adoption and the Patriarchal
> > Order.
>
> This makes perfect sense to me. However, I don't see that it necessarily
> implies an inability to add to or expand upon what was provided by Joseph
> - Brigham Young clearly didn't feel uncomfortable doing that.
As far as I personaly know Brigham Young didn't back AWAY from anything
Joseph taught but instead pushed AHEAD to actualize what he understood
to be the implicit intention of Joseph. The only Revelation that Brigham
Young ever claimed was the "United Order of Enoch" sytem of strict
communalism, which is an intensification of Joseph's "Law of Consecration"
rather than a backing away from it. Today's LDS Church has systematicly
reversed or abandoned every principle that Joseph taught and died for.
>
> > Wiford Woodruf did the "Manifesto" as a ploy to try to get around
> > the Feds until Utah could get Statehood, with the intention of getting
> > everything straightened out by States Rights afterwards.
>
> I'd like to see concrete references supporting this. (I realize that you
> don't have them at your fingertips, but some pointers whenevr you can
> provide them would be great.) I think that this comes dangerously close
> to accusing WW of hatching a deceptive plot in order to appease the United
> States government, a plot that was then unanimously ratified by the
> General Authorities of the church at the time. Perhaps I am understaning
> your intentions wrong here, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary
> evidence.
You'll have to look through the Dialog magazines of 1988 for the paper
called something like "Post-Manifesto Polygamy" I think by Quinn.
That's all for now, I have to resurrect some braincells and dig out my
Mormon stuff. More to come.
Ken
Subject:
Re: Mutants and Robert Black
Date:
Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:53:26 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Beth any
To:
Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com
Far out baby.....
Yes I too have been delving (re-delving, as of late) into old stuff
thinking about how far out Joseph was. A number of my non mormon friends
have been hanging around me long enough to have taking a liking to him
for some of those qualities.
What's everyone been doin? I was t hinking a b out paralells between
Rastafarianism and Mormonism yesterday.
BTW, if anyone is interested, there are supposed to be a couple of
Hopi Elders on the Art Bell show at 10 pm Monday night.
I hope to start writing more and coming up with some questions for y'all
soon but I am still trying to catch up on reams of old posts.
I need to get through the Tarot ones so I can get in touch with Robert
and find out what he has to say about it.
Gnosticism, Gnosticism, Gnosticism.....Ken is right, it seems that
that's all it boils down to the more I disect Joseph Smith and the path
that he got me on...chasing the spirit wherever it leads me.
Later....
Beth Spiritchaser
>From theurgus@aol.com Tue Jun 9 18:41:28 1998
>Received: from Theurgus@aol.com
> by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 3QKBa05135;
> Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:39:41 +2000 (EDT)
>From:
>Message-ID: ?ebbc3a.357de3de@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:39:41 EDT
>To: Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
> kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com,
> ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
> rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com,
> dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Subject: Mutants and Robert Black
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 57
>
>Hi Everybody!
>
>Things have gotten real quiet out there. It sure would be nice if
>y'all would check in and let us know how you're doin'.
>
>I've been listening to the Sunstone tapes on "Mormon Gnosticism"
>that Beth sent me, and I have to say that I'm feeling a deeper love
>for how far out Joseph Smith really is all the time.
>
>Robert, if you see this, would you consider sending you phone # again?
>I think I'm ready to talk things over now.
>
>I hope to hear from y'all soon.
>
>Ken Shaw
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Subject:
Oahspe
Date:
Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:30:12 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Neoptolmus@aol.com
To:
Theurgus@aol.com, love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
ariel144@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com
I have recently discovered a copy of an abridged version of Oaspe, the book
received by John Ballou Newbrough through the method of automatic writing. At
the beginning of the book there are some "heiroglyphics" that remind me of the
Book of Mormon. Newbrough was a Mason and he lived in Salt Lake City for a
while. A church of sorts was founded in Salt Lake City called the Essenes of
Kosmon, and this evidently is not the only group founded around the book. I
have also read of groups called faithists. Newbrough tried to organize a
Utopian Oahspe community in New Mexico, which community evidently included
secret ceremonies, but the community failed within a decade and the land was
sold off. I have run across a couple of web pages that offer some small pieces
of information including the above.
My other recent discovery was a web page on the JWs. I was hardly surprised at
this point to discover that Russell, the founder of the group, was a Mason who
employed many Masonic symbols in the publication of the Golden Age, the early
JW publication, and believed that the throne of God was in the Pleiades. Their
second leader, Rutherford, evidently believed that he was receiving the
information for the Watchtower from angels. Of course, today the JWs wouldn't
acknowledge this info. Most of them probably don't even know about it. Man is
it interesting though.
The one group I am in the dark about, aside from reading some of their book,
is Urantia. Oahspe and Urantia seem to have something in common. Does anyone
know any specifics about the history of Urantia? Also, what are we to make of
the fact that a number of these 19th century religious phenomena were the
product of Masons?
--- Trevor
Subject:
Re: mailing lists
Date:
Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:29:54 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com,
dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com
Michael,
I think I killed the m-Kabbalah this...I think I ended up offeneding all
intrest groups...it's been real quiet for awhile.
"Rabbi Yosef" just sent out a post looking for anyone who knows
anything about an LDS group that call themselves the "B'nei Shalom".
I'm attaching a some of an email that I sent to a totaly far-out Mormon
splinter-group that call themselve the "Sons Auman Israel".
Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Hi!
I wrote to you about ten years ago when I was living in Provo
and hanging out with Ernest Strack and Rhea Kunz and Ogden Kraut.
Back then you called yourselves Sons Ahman Israel.
Where are you at? Are you still in northern Nevada or Arizona?
I've pretty much giving up on Mormonism after all those years of
struggling so hard to make it work for me. Right now I'm pretty
much a commited Buddhist/Sufi.
I started looking at Joseph Smith from the standpoint of comparitive
religions, and the only other place in the world where there is a
tradition of "treasure finders" being lead to dig up ancient scriptures
written in mysterious characters who are given supernatural ability
to translate for the benifit of the faithful...is in Tibet. The
"treasure finders" are called Tertons and the treasures are scriptures
hidden by Padmasambhava, the "Second Buddha", who introduced a highly
magical form of Tantric Buddhism into Tibet, to come forth as needed
according to the conditions of the times.
When you read the accounts of the Tertons being lead by dreams and
shining aparations of Bodhisattvas to stones that suddenly "open" to
yeild up metal plates covered with mysterious "Dakini Script", it makes
your head explode to think about Joseph Smith.
Was "Mormonism" the result of the intervention of beings of a higher order
into human history? The whole Hebraic Tradition could be interpreted as
the intervention of "higher beings", who just as well could be described as
Bodhisattvas from other worlds. The Name YHVH (Iahue) itself means simply
"Being", a prefectly good designation for a "Fully Awakened One".
I would like to check you folks out further. Let me know how to get in
contact.
BTW...great looking website!
Subject:
Urantia and Theosis
Date:
Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:42:48 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com,
dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com
I've found a few things on Urantia
Home Page
Eastern Orthodoxy and The Urantia Book
Byron Belitsos
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Introduction
Slowly but surely, The Urantia Book is becoming more widely disseminated within Christendom. As we watch its reception by liberal Protestants, and a few Catholics, a fascinating question arises concerning its future impact on Eastern Orthodox Christians.
Drawing upon human and superhuman sources, the Urantia Papers claim to provide the true story of the life of the historic Jesus. But how do these writings square with the beliefs of the historic church, whose founders actually witnessed Jesus' life? The Eastern Church traces its bishops and its "Holy Tradition" in an unbroken line back to these earliest believers--even to the Apostles themselves who first preached at Jerusalem and Antioch. How then should Urantia Book readers regard this ancient institution, whose patriarchs still sit in Jerusalem and Antioch? Conversely, on what basis might Orthodox Christians approach this claim of a new and strange revelation of the life of Jesus? Are there points of contact between Orthodoxy and The Urantia Book, or are the two anathema to one another?
The Rising Importance of Orthodoxy
Such questions are more important now than ever. One obvious reason is the collapse of communism in the primary sphere of the Eastern Orthodox Church: Russia and Eastern Europe. After decades of repression, these countries have a significant opportunity to reconstruct their faiths.
In the U.S., Orthodox Christian communities are growing in membership, unlike many other church denominations, now that they are emerging from their old-world ethnicity. There is also a significant movement of converts from Protestantism to Orthodoxy. In 1987 the bulk of the membership of the evangelical Campus Crusade for Christ converted to Orthodoxy. Other evidence of the growing interest of Protestants is a remarkable new book documenting the conversion to Orthodoxy of eighteen former clergy from diverse Protestant backgrounds.1
Scholars and journalists are also giving more notice to Orthodoxy. Karen Armstrong's best-seller A History of God, (Knopf, 1993) gives especially sympathetic treatment to the tradition. According to an article in the Utne Reader on the current revival of Orthodoxy, Armstrong notes that Orthodoxy "is rooted in mystery and paradox, rather than legalistic do's and don'ts....Eastern Orthodoxy has a rich tradition of mystical practice that Armstrong refers to as a 'Christian Yoga'." 2
Is The Urantia Book Protestant?
When most reader-believers of The Urantia Book think of dialoguing with Christians, they often look to liberal or mainline Protestant churches. At first glance this seems quite sensible, for it certainly requires an environment free of dogmatism to be able to hear talk of a "new revelation."
Some might also argue that the Book itself is part of the stream of liberal Protestant thought, or at least most consistent with it. For example, it is generally "fideist." as is the Protestant tradition. It attacks ecclesiastsicism and criticizes ceremonialism and sacramentalism, although it does institute a new form of the Eucharist in the "sacrament of the remembrance."(U.B. p. 1942) And it appears to praise the Protestant Reformation by referring to it in several passages as a "rehabilitation" and "rejuvenation" and even a "resurrection" of the church. (See Paper 195, "After Pentecost.")
Still, there are many important elements in the Book's teachings that lend themselves to interface with Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodox theology today has strengths where liberal Protestant thought has weaknesses. For example, there is a rising tendency in seminaries to question the divinity of Jesus, to deconstruct the transcendence of the divine, to abandon Trinitarian theology. By contrast, the staunch Orthodox adherence to the sacred traditions of historic Christianity may open doors to dialogue, for the Urantia revelation strongly affirms the historic Christian faith in the Incarnation and the Trinity.
Mystical traditions are not lacking in Protestantism and certainly not in Catholicism, but Orthodoxy contains a vast, rich, and unbroken tradition of mystical theology and practice which is of direct lineage from the early church. One evidence is the superb collection of Orthodox mystical writings known as the Philokalia, the cream of over a thousand years of experiential mysticism. 3
The Eastern church inherited the fullness of the "desert spirituality" tradition of the early church mystics and ascetics, which harkens back so vividly to the prophetic strain of Judaism. Magnificent liturgy, resplendent symbolism, mystical art, and experiential religion have always had a privileged place in Orthodox religiosity.
The Doctrinal Basis for Dialogue
One beginning place for dialogue would be Eastern Orthodox doctrine. It may amaze many Orthodox believers to discover that the doctrines of the Church "Fathers" (or,"Patristics") that required centuries to evolve are affirmed as generally correct by The Urantia Book. This strong link at the doctrinal level means to me that both Orthodox believers and adherents of The Urantia Book have much to share and much to learn from each other.
There are perhaps three key elements of Orthodox belief: the theology of the Trinity, the doctrine of the Incarnation, and the worshipful veneration of icons. The first two are strongly echoed and amplified in the teachings of The Urantia Book ; and I personally find that the devotional use of icons that pervades the Eastern churches provides a "satisfying symbolism" that can "symbolize that which is permanent in the presence of unceasing change." (See "The Nature of Cultism," U.B. p. 965-6)
The core beliefs of Orthodoxy were spelled out in the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the early centuries of Christianity, which met between A.D. 325 and 787.4 The great Patristic age of speculative mystical theology is long over, but latent in "Holy Tradition" are images, practices, and doctrines that can easily lend themselves to creative development. For example, a great revival of Russian Orthodoxy in the 19th century that was induced (at least in part) by the translation of The Philokalia into Russian quickly reached new heights of innovative theology (such as Soloviev, Bulgakov, and Berdayev) and of religious art (such as Dostoevsky). The creative theology of this period in Russia even anticipated later developments in the West such as process theology (which has a strong affinity with The Urantia Book's concept of the Supreme Being) and the re-integration of feminine images of deity in Soloviev's school of "sophiology" (which echoes important themes in The Urantia Book ). It is very possible that a world renaissance of Orthodox life and thought might have followed in the 20th century had this revival not been stamped out by Lenin and Stalin.
Christology and Trinity
But let us return to the original period of creative Orthodox theology. It seems a miracle that the theologians of the early church were able to establish philosophically the truth that Jesus was "homoousius" (one in essence) with the Father, while also fully human. We are told in The Urantia Book that without the valiant efforts of one of these Greek "Fathers" of the Church, this great and saving truth would have been lost:
Christianity owes much, very much, to the Greeks. It was a Greek, from Egypt, who so bravely stood up at Nicaea and so fearlessly challenged this assembly that it dared not so obscure the concept of the nature of Jesus that the real truth of his bestowal might have been in danger of being lost to the world. This Greek's name was Athanasius, and but for the eloquence and the logic of this believer, the persuasions of Arius would have triumphed. (U.B. p. 2070)
The historical record shows that Athanasius led the Council of Nicaea (325) to repudiate Arianism (the belief that God the Son is fundamentally inferior to God the Father) and to adopt the view that Jesus as Son was "light from light, true God of true God," that is, ontologically equal to the Father.
Amazingly, the earliest Christians arrived at a doctrine of the Trinity that also matches in key points that of The Urantia Book. Again, this was not achieved by direct revelation but through the same circuitous, evolutionary route as the dogma of the Incarnation. Several centuries of doctrinal debate were necessary because, accordi ng t o The Urantia Book, Jesus' teachings to his Apostles about the true nature of the Trinity were lost.
Jesus taught his apostles the truth regarding the persons of the Paradise Trinity, but they thought he spoke figuratively and symbolically....The first Trinity of Christianity was proclaimed at Antioch and consisted of God, his Word, and his Wisdom...The Christian concept of the Trinity, which began to gain recognition near the close of the first century after Christ, was comprised of the Universal Father, the Creator Son...and the Mother Spirit....(U.B. p. 1144) [Emphasis added]
Of course, all of these concepts were finally codified in the Nicene Creed in 325.
In addition, in Constantinople in 381, the Second Council spoke more clearly of the Holy Spirit as equal to the other two Persons, and is "...worshipped together with the Father and the Son." This essential teaching of the equality of the third person of the Trinity is also affirmed and greatly expanded by The Urantia Book.5
As a side note, it is regrettable that the Wisdom or "Sophia" concept of the earliest Christian Trinitarians at Antioch (see emphasis, last quote) faded into the lost pages of early church history. This image of Sophia is in certain ways an accurate depiction of the local universe Mother Spirit concept of The Urantia Book. By the fourth century, Sophia was largely dropped in favor of the genderless Holy Spirit, or merged into the rising cult of Mary, the Theotokos ("God-bearer" or "Mother of God"). But there is great hope that she will be retrieved. As we noted previously, through the visionary theology of Vladimir Soloviev, a school of Orthodox "sophiology" arose in Russia in the nineteenth century to explore this ancient notion once again, and this revivified Sophia concept is, curiously, enjoying a renaissance both in Russia today and in the United States among eco-feminist thinkers and creation theologians. Is it possible that creative Orthodox theologians might someday revive the cultic basis for the veneration of the Mother Spirit and even the Infinite Mother Spirit?
Whatever the case may be, our key point here is that the trinitarianism of the Ecumenical Councils was, according to The Urantia Book, "spiritually" correct:
But though the Christian concept of the Trinity erred in fact, it was practically true with respect to spiritual relationships. (U.B. p. 1145)
The Church Fathers' high concept of the Trinity has been preserved intact down to this day in the Eastern Church, especially in its spiritual sense. In no place on earth is this "practically true" concept of the Trinity venerated, worshipped, meditated upon, symbolized, sensed, celebrated, chanted and sung about with as much energy and faith as in Orthodox churches worldwide. "Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit!" is a constant refrain in the Orthodox liturgy of John Chrysostom, the standard liturgy throughout the Orthodox world.
The liturgy of the Eastern Church creates a cosmic theater for the adoration for the Trinity. It is my view that this exuberant tradition of worship and symbolism could continue unbroken if these churches were ever to embrace The Urantia Book ; it is at least my hope as one who was raised within this tradition. The Eastern Church has also spent the greater part of 2000 years praising God for the pngt of the Incarnation, and this is a legacy that could certainly be preserved. I would suggest that such sublime notions of transcendence and immanence need only be supplemented by the new narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus in order to create a robust new religion for the 21st century.
Two Views of Salvation
Few Christians realize that there is a wide divergence between the ancient church and its successor churches in the West (both Catholic and Protestant) in the understanding of how man is saved. By the same token, few Urantia Book readers realize that the soteriology of the Eastern church is closer in spirit to The Urantia Book than that of the Western church.
The differences between East and West can be summarized as follows: The Western tradition is essentially the juridical-Augustinian view that since human will is shackled by original sin, we can be saved only by unearned acts of divine grace that are ultimately predestined. Calvinism is perhaps its most extreme form, but this Augustinian teaching--along with the closely allied doctrine of blood atonement whose roots are in Paul--has endured in all branches of Western Christianity. Mainline Protestant theologians have only recently abandoned the Augustinian premises of original sin and atonement.
The Eastern position derives from the very different teachings of St. Maximus the Confessor, the seventh century Greek theologian and mystic. Along with St. Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus is one of the systematizers of the essential early church doctrine of theosis ("deification"). Maximus' view of salvation is summarized below by the distinguished historian, Jaroslav Pelikan:
An epitome of the contrast is the formula of Maximus: 'Our salvation finally depends on our own will.' The dichotomy represented by the antithesis between Pelagianism [the rejected Latin doctrine of salvation by reliance on human will] and Augustinianism was not part of Maximus' thought. Instead, his doctrine of salvation is based on the idea of participation and of communion that excludes neither grace nor freedom, which were established once and for all in the incarnate Word and his 'two wills'.6
What is important for us here is that St. Maximus' position on salvation is remarkably close to that of Jesus in The Urantia Book. Jesus teaches that salvation is a free pngt of God that is freely received. But our free will is not "fallen" or "crippled" in the Augustinian view; human will, says Jesus, is an essential factor in choosing to receive such grace: "I declare that salvation is first a matter of your personal choosing." (U.B. p. 1828) Elsewhere he says, "The transformations of grace are wrought in response to the living faith of those who are the beneficiaries."(U.B. p. 1686) Similarly, St. Maximus writes:
The Spirit does not generate a will that is not willing, but he transforms into deification a will that has the desire for salvation. 7
According to Pelikan, the continuing legacy of Maximus in the East on the problem of salvation was such that "...the antithesis between divine grace and human freedom, which dogged Western theology for many centuries, did not present a problem in that form for Eastern Christian thought."8
Thus it should come as no surprise that the Eastern church rejects as simplistic and wrongheaded the juridical implications of the atonement doctrine adhered to in the West. We know, of course, The Urantia Book takes pains to refute the atonement doctrine, calling it "a barbaric idea." (U.B. p. 60) Likewise, the early Fathers with the exception of Augustine did not emphasize the Pauline view that Jesus' death was a "ransom."
As we will see in the next section, the Eastern church sees salvation, much as The Urantia Book does, as a continuing process of "progress--growth in grace." (See U.B. p. 1682.) Certainly both teachings would consider a tragic error the simplistic evangelistic Protestant formula that salvation depends on being "born again" by virtue of the belief that "Jesus died for our sins."
"Theosis" in Orthodoxy and The Urantia Book
In the 60's and 70's, the Campus Crusade for Christ led thousands of college students into the "born again" brand of conversion experience typical of today's evangelical Christianity. A former Crusade leader, Frank Schaeffer, an Orthodox convert, contrasts the born-again experience with Orthodox theosis in his book Dancing Alone. Schaeffer was perhaps most responsible for leading the Campus Crusade for Christ into the Orthodox church.
The American Protestant also looks for a magical instantaneous "silver bullet" solution to sin. He calls this the "born again" experience. But according to Holy Tradition, just saying that one is born again is meaningless. It does not entail the necessary...use of our free will to choose God's way again and again, which the historical Church taught is the only way we can become like God, to strive to become "deified"--in other words, imitate Christ and through imitation to become God-like ourselves.9
Schaeffer's book is a sustained polemic against the narrowing of the theological horizon that is represented by modern Protestantism when contrasted with Orthodoxy.
The modern Russian theologian, Georges Florovsky, writes: "The ultimate aim and purpose of human life was defined in the Patristic tradition as theosis, divinization."10 Similarly, the Jesus of The Urantia Book also urged believers to dare to be God-like, to love with a fatherly love. Much like the central Orthodox doctrine of the progressive "deification," Jesus taught his followers to engage in a "...glorious progression, to become perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (U.B. p. 1604)
Like the other Fathers of the Church, Maximus saw the practice of unceasing prayer (which we will soon examine) as essential to deification. Notably, his teaching on theosis was also incorporated into the Christology he successfully defended at the Sixth Ecumenical Council in 681.11
Maximus' theological achievement culminates the line of Patristic thought beginning with St. Athanasius and his forbears. Historians now point out that Athanasius' central argument to Council of Nicaea was the basis of the later doctrine of theosis; he declared that if Jesus is not both fully God and fully man, then we cannot logically share in the divine nature. His famous line about the Incarnation epitomizes the Orthodox concept of theosis: "He became man so that man might become God."
Hesychasm and Orthodox Spirituality
The Greek Fathers' teaching of theosis is not just a theological abstraction. It is actually the doctrinal expression of a rich tradition within Orthodoxy of specific worshipful practices. Arising from the experiments of the mystics of the early church, these practices are commonly known under the term "hesychasm" or "hesychia." The literal translation of the Greek word hesychia is "quies" in Latin and "stillness" in English. For the early church, hesychia provided the method of carrying out the Biblical injunction of "unceasing prayer," which St. Paul urged for all believers.
Bishop Kallistos Ware, Lecturer in Eastern Orthodox Studies at Oxford University, summarizes the practices of hesychasm:
A hesychast is one who pursues hesychia, inner stillness or silence of the heart, in particular through the use of the Jesus Prayer. This is a short invocation, constantly repeated, usually in the form, 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me.' Through inner attentiveness and the repetition of this prayer, sometimes accompanied by a physical technique involving the control of breathing, the hesychasts...believed that they attained a vision of divine light and so union with God.12
John Meyendorff explains the real purpose of the prayer to the hesychast:
The Jesus prayer is at the center of all hesychast spirituality. The Name of the Incarnate Word is bound up in the essential functions of being: it is present in the "heart," it is linked to the breath....The monk is called to become conscious of the actual presence of Jesus in the interior of his own being...without any images. 13 [Emphasis added]
It seems to me that the hesychastic practice of the interior consciousness of the presence of God strongly echoes Jesus in his Second Discourse on Religion in The Urantia Book:
Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God....It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God. (U.B. p. 1733)
Hesychasm evolved directly out of the "desert" tradition of the earliest Christian anchorites of the fourth century in Egypt and Syria. The desert spirituality of these innovators is regarded by most historians to be the historic font of Christian experiential mysticism, both in the West and the East. Western mystics from Meister Eckhart to Thomas Merton drew deeply from this source.
By the sixth century, the various strands of early desert hesychasm were drawn together in a theological synthesis of its Neo-Platonic and Biblical elements. The Hellenistic influence, coming through Neo-Platonic thinkers such as Evagrius Ponticus, emphasized "mental prayer" and tended toward a Platonic dualism of body and spirit. The Biblical approach, epitomized by St. Macarius, a contemporary of Athanasius, was heart-centered and holistic.14
Hesychastic heart-spirituality was systematized in the sixth century by St. John Climacus of Sinai. Climacus essentially used Neo-Platonic categories to evoke a holistic approach to unceasing prayer. Striking a theme that became crucial in later theological developments, Climacus and his contemporaries did not pose a contrast between the body and mind or spirit as developed later in the West. They did not privilege any aspect of the human organism as being closer to the divine vision than any other. Instead, they depicted all elements of the human person as equally "fallen" in the face of God's utter transcendence, and thereby all parts--body, mind, imagination, and soul (compositely represented as "the heart")--as equally benefiting from the pngts of grace conferred upon the believer practicing hesychia.
Seen from the psychological point of view, hesychasm involves a practice of stilling the entire being, both body and mind.15 The contemporary Greek mystic and psychologist, Hierothos Vlachos, summarizes the teachings of the Fathers in this respect:
St. Gregory the Theologian regarded hesychasm as essential for attaining communion with God. "It is necessary to be still in order to have clear converse with God and gradually bring the mind back from its wanderings." With stillness a man purifies his sense and his heart. So he knows God, and this knowledge of God is his salvation.16
Vlachos quotes John Climacus from his classic work The Ladder of the Divine Ascent on the technique of stillness:
Stillness of the soul is "Accurate knowledge and management of one's thoughts....Stillness of the soul is a science of thoughts and of an inviolable mind. Brave and determined thinking is a friend of stillness. It keeps constant vigil at the doors of the heart, and kills or repels the thoughts that come."17
"Hesychia" and The Urantia Book
If it is true that such practices lead to a consciousness of the presence of God, how would Jesus as depicted in The Urantia Book regard hesychasm?
The Urantia Book reveals that Jesus used various meditation techniques in his practice of the presence of God. The Greek Alexandrian philosopher Rodan depicts Jesus as a man fully devoted to a "habit" or "technique" that he "so consistently practices....the isolation of worshipful meditation." (U.B. p.1774)
Later in the passage, we see that this possibly involves a physical and mental discipline, and it certainly involves a form of stillness:
I am deeply impressed with the custom of Jesus in going apart by himself to engage in these seasons of solitary survey of the problems of living...and to do all of this with an eye single to the glory of God--to breathe in sincerity your Master's favorite prayer, "Not my will, but yours, be done...".This worshipful practice of your Master brings that relaxation which renews the mind; that illumination which inspires the soul....The relaxation of worship, or spiritual communion as practiced by the Master, relieves tension, removes conflicts, and mightily augments the total resources of the personality.
Not unlike the hesychasts, we can see in this quote an emphasis on stillness ("relaxation which renews the mind"), breathing ("breathe in sincerity"), and inner attentiveness ("an eye single to the glory of G od" ).
Remember also that Rodan portrays relaxation or stillness as an essential feature of worshipful communion:
>From the human standpoint it is a question of combined meditation and relaxation. Meditation makes the contact of mind with spirit; relaxation determines the capacity for spiritual receptivity. (U.B. p. 1777)
We read elsewhere in the Book that worship is "effortless attention, true and ideal soul rest, a form of restful spiritual exertion." (U.B. p. 1616)
Thus, there seems to be many elements of teaching in The Urantia Book that provide a bridge to hesychastic spirituality. But much more research is needed in this area. There are important theological similarities between Orthodoxy and The Urantia Book; it is not surprising that they teach comparable techniques for practicing the presence of God.
Hesychasm is treated in more depth in my column that appears later in this issue of The Spiritual Fellowship Journal. As a final point it is important to note that the hesychasts put stress on (1) repentance and (2) observance of the Commandments, as necessary concomitants to the hesychastic practice of stillness.
The Orthodox Synthesis of Mysticism and Theology
A closer look at Orthodox mystical theology will help underline its dissimilarities with Western theology and what I believe is a corresponding theological affinity with the spirit of The Urantia Book.
The Urantia Book frequently emphasizes that theology must be experientially based. It defines theology as "...the study of the actions and reactions of the human spirit....Theology is always the study of your religion; the study of another's religion is psychology."(U.B. p. 1135)
In this same spirit, Patristic theologians from the beginning saw theology's purpose as initiating the believer into an experience of God.18 Hesychastic mysticism has continued almost unceasingly in the Eastern church, nurturing theological trends in almost every generation. Orthodox theologians from Athanasius to the present have considered as axiomatic the famous dictum of Evagrius Ponticus, who said "If you truly pray, you are a theologian, and if you are a true theologian, you will know how to pray." 19
The first great challenge to this long tradition of the infusion of mysticism and theology arose in the 14th century. It was issued by a renowned scholar in Constantinople named Balaam, who was influenced by the Renaissance humanism then blossoming in Italy.20 The full story of the fascinating disputes that followed is far too intricate to narrate here. What is important for us is that Baalam's provocations aroused the entire monastic community of the Eastern Church, now concentrated at Mt. Athos, in a passionate defense of hesychasm and the mystery of deification.
The Palamite Synthesis and Modern Secularism
It fell to Gregory Palamas, a brilliant abbot on the "Holy Mount," to articulate a response from the perspective of the Patristic tradition against the "nominalism" and "apophatism" of Balaam--who by this time had many supporters among the humanistic intelligentsia of Byzantium.
The result of his labors was the ultimate doctrinal synthesis of hesychastic mysticism with Patristic theology. Palamas showed how the most sublime notions of the unknowability of God in his essence (i.e., apophatism), were yet consistent with the doctrine of theosis and the Christ-mysticism of the hesychasts. He distinguished the unknowable essence of God from the knowable "energies" of God as manifested in his revelations to us and as experienced by the hesychastic saints; yet he provided for the paradoxical unity of God's essence and energies.
This is an oversimplifying summary of a great thinker. Suffice it to say that Palamas saved Christianity in the East from what became its fate in the West: the sundering of theology from religious experience. Corollary to this was the separation of philosophy from theology, and later of science from religion, that is now an earmark of Western thought. The splintering of the Western medieval synthesis began in the Renaissance and was completed in the Enlightenment; in the end it led to the complete secularization of the Western mind in modern times. While we all undoubtedly enjoy the fruits of science and liberal philosophy that resulted from secularism, the world has paid a heavy price indeed from the "death of God" that was its inevitable by-product. Thus, writing some time in the 1930's, the authors of The Urantia Book warned: "Twentieth-century secularism tends to affirm that man does not need God. But beware! this godless philosophy of human society will lead only to unrest, animosity, unhappiness, war, and world-wide disaster."(U.B. p. 2081)
If it were not for the Palamite synthesis, and its subsequent adoption in the Council of 1351, it is very possible that a secularizing humanism might have taken hold in Byzantium among the Hellenistic intelligentsia--just as it had in Europe. This would have eventually marginalized the unique achievements of Patristic tradition. We can speculate that the result over time might have been the substitution of the Othodox mystery of deification with a pagan humanism of self-deification. This of course, is what happened in the succeeding centuries in the West:
The victory of Palamas was the victory of Christian humanism over the pagan humanism of the Renaissance. The full measure of the controversy's significance can be grasped only in the light of what followed [in the West]. An ineluctable decision was set before the Orthodox Church in the fourteenth century: a choice between a unitary (integral) concept of man based on the Bible, affirming the immediate efficacy of redemptive grace in every sphere of human activity, or the choice of an intellectualized spiritualism claiming independence for the human intellect, or at least autonomy from all matter, and denying that any real deification was possible here below. There is no doubt the secularism of the modern age is the direct consequence of the second choice.21
Church Governance and Christian Unity
I would like to close by shifting gears and noting the contribution that might be made by the Eastern Church to the reunification of Christianity. The Urantia Book blasts Occidental Christianity for its disunity:
Christianity is seriously confronted with the doom embodied in one of its own slogans: "A house divided against itself cannot stand." The non-Christian world will hardly capitulate to a sect-divided Christendom...[the] division of Christendom presents a grave weakness....(U.B. p. 2085-6)
Protestantism now presents the world with thousands of competing "churches" to choose from. One could argue that it has sacrificed unity for the sake of avoiding the problems of diversity.
By contrast, the Orthodox church has retained much of its original doctrinal and organizational unity. Bishops make policy and pronounce doctrine by convening synods, just as they did in the early centuries of the church before the rise of the Papacy. The Orthodox church has always been characterized by an atmosphere of deliberation and a search for consensus among the bishops of the entire church, along with input from laity and clergy. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is known only as first among equals in a decentralized church order; there is no pope in Eastern Orthodoxy.
This relatively decentralized form of administration provides one model for how to achieve church unity without overmuch uniformity: the Orthodox church's conciliar style of governance is a middle way between Papism and the excesses of Protestant sectarianism. Similar models of "middle way" governance are also exemplified in older Protestant denominations, such as the Anglican and Episcopal.
In the West, Catholic tyranny begat the rebellion of Protestantism against an intolerable ecclesiastical uniformity. Tragically, this in turn shattered the unity of Western Christendom for the foreseeable future. The Eastern church has never generated tyranny or rebellion on such a scale.
Perhaps if the Eastern Church could be induced to see Jesus once again as he lived his life on earth among men--if it could behold the living Jesus as depicted in The Urantia Book --perhaps then it, the historic church of Jesus, the upholder of the sacred truths of the Incarnation and the Trinity, the preserver of integral Christian theology over two millennia, may be able to assist in leading Christendom toward its eventual re-unification as depicted in this crucial passage in The Urantia Book:
The living Jesus is the only hope of a possible unification of Christianity. The true church--the Jesus brotherhood--is invisible, spiritual, and is characterized by unity, not necessarily by uniformity. Uniformity is the earmark of the physical world of mechanistic nature. Spiritual unity is the fruit of faith union with the living Jesus. The visible church should refuse longer to handicap the progress of the invisible and spiritual brotherhood of the kingdom of God. And this brotherhood is destined to become a living organism in contrast to an institutionalized social organization. It may well utilize such social organizations, but it must not be supplanted by them. (U.B. p. 2085)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes:
1. Coming Home: Why Protestant Clergy are Becoming Orthodox ed., Peter Gillquist, Conciliar Press, Ben Lomand, CA: 1992.
2. "A Western Eastern Way", Utne Reader (Nov/Dec 1994), pp. 32-3.
3. The Philokalia, originally compiled by St. Nikodemas of the Holy Mountain and St. Makarios of Corinth. (Three volumes in translation.) Published by London: Faber & Faber, 1984. See also Writings From the Philokalia on Prayer of the Heart, from Faber & Faber.
4. Orthodoxy defines the entire stream of events in the life of the early church--life, death and resurrection of Christ, the creation of liturgical practices and church governance, the adoption of the scriptural canon (settled in 387 at the Third Council of Carthage), and the seven great councils of the Church--as one unified "Holy Tradition" guided by the Holy Spirit.
5. The personality and attributes of the third person of the Paradise Trinity, the Infinite Spirit, are presented in papers 8 and 9 of The Urantia Book . The Infinite Spirit's local universe focalization is described in paper 34, "The Local Universe Mother Spirit."
It is notable that the Christology proclaimed at Nicaea was revisited in several other Ecumenical Councils in language paralleling that of The Urantia Book . The Chalcedon Council (451) affirmed Christ as "perfect in Godhead and perfect in humanity," and "is made known to us in two natures. The difference between the two natures is in no way destroyed because of the union." Further controversy arose regarding the nature of the humanity of Christ in view of this union. The sixth Ecumenical Council (681) ascribed to Christ "two natural wills." This doctrine is comparable to the teachings of The Urantia Book. (See pp. 1331 and 1510.)
6. Jaroslav Pelikan, The Spirit of Eastern Christendom, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) pp. 181-2.
7. Ibid., pp. 11-12.
8. Ibid.
9. Frank Schaeffer, Dancing Alone: The Quest for Orthodox Faith in an Age of False Religions, (Boston: Holy Cross Press, 1994) p. 205.
10. Georges Florovsky, Bible, Church, Tradition: An Eastern Orthodox View, pp. 114-15.
11. Against the Monothelites, Maximus argued that the two natures of Christ are not abstract ideas, but existentially real. Believers can achieve deification only if a human will or "energy" existed in its fullness in Jesus; this permits Christians to conform to the divine will by uniting themselves sacramentally and mystically to the deified human will of Christ.
12. The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity, ed., John McManners, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1990) p. 156.
13. Meyendorff, p. 58.
14. Macarius regarded sin as a force that breaks up the unity of the person understood as a single organism. Drawing from the holistic image of the Christ physically incarnate, Macarius emphasized the participation of the whole person in prayer--the body, mind, imagination, soul and feelings, all compositely represented as "the heart."
Christ came to reestablish the unity of the human composite; and by constantly recalling the name of Jesus the hesychast makes the grace of redemption live within him. That this grace may be truly efficacious, he must make "his spirit return into his heart," the center of the psycho-physical organism, and thus reconstitute the original harmony between the parts of the organism. (Meyendorff, p. 88.)
15. See the chapter on hesychia, pp. 311-326, in Archimandrite Hierotheos Vlachos, Orthodox Psychotherapy: The Science of the Fathers, (Levadia, Greece: Birth of the Theotokos Monastery, 1994).
16. Ibid. p. 312.
17. Ibid., p. 315.
18. "What is remarkable about early Christian thought is that both the Orthodox Fathers and the "heretics" had basically the same view of theology's purpose: to initiate the believer into a genuine gnosis, an experiential knowledge of God." Fritjof Capra & David Steindl-Rast, Belonging to the Cosmos: Explorations on the Frontier of Science and Spirituality, (San Francisco: HarperCollins, 1991), p. 48.
19. Evagrius Ponticus., The Praktikos & Chapters on Prayer, (Kalamazoo: Cictercian Publications, 1981), p. 65.
20. Balaam was born and educated in Italy, and migrated to Constantinople in 1338, gaining renown at the Imperial Court through his brilliant scholarship in numerous disciplines. Balaam was fleeing the hyper-rationalistic Thomistic environment of medieval Roman Catholicism, and saw himself as embracing instead the profound Hellenism of the East, and thereby returning to the true faith of the Fathers. Against the rationalism of Aquinas, he propounded (at the imperial academy in Constantinople) the "apophatic"(imageless) theology of Pseudo-Dionysius -- a crucial strand in the theological synthesis comprising the doctrine of deification. Dionysius taught that God was radically unknowable through any natural human faculties, fully transcendent to all understanding and knowledge.
But Balaam went even further. By now he had gained such renown that he was appointed by the Emperor to represent the Eastern Church in reunion dialogues with Pope Benedict. He therefore sought a theological basis for overcoming the differences of the contending churches.
In Dionysius [Balaam] found a metaphysical basis for the reunion of the churches: since God is unknowable, why go on disputing about the procession of the Holy Spirit? The Greeks hold that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone; the Latins defend their seventh-century addition to the Creed (the Filioque) by claiming that he proceeds also from the Son. [Balaam thought] this was sheer presumption on both sides, but especially on that of the Latins. (Meyendorff, p. 88.)
On one side Balaam attacked the over-confident rationalism of the Thomists; on the other, he assailed the overconfident mysticism of the hesachast theologians, who presumed to base the dogmas of their Trinitarian theology on experiential mysticism.
21. Meyendorff, p. 174.
A service of
The Fellowship for Readers of The Urantia Book
Subject:
coming forth of Urantia
Date:
Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:48:47 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com,
dcombe@rain.org, 74277.3365@compuserve.com
CC:
Theurgus@aol.com
*
Site Index
------------------------------------------------------------------------
How The Urantia Book
Came into Existence
Wil liam S. Sadler, Jr.
February 18, 1962
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is transcribed from a tape recording made in the home of Berkeley Elliott on February 18, 1962. On this occasion, William S. Sadler, Jr., one of the "contact commissioners," was talking with the study group there assembled. What follows are comments which he made on this occasion concerning the origin of The Urantia Book.
"Many years ago my parents, who were physicians, had brought to their attention this individual who had some rather strange things happening to him. In one of the books my father wrote, "The Mind at Mischief", he made mention of this case in the last part of the book -- in the Appendix which was published in the 1920's. My father had spook-hunting as a hobby. He was an exposer of mediums. He had two running mates -- the head of the psychology department at Northwestern University and Howard Thurston, a professional magician. Take a physician, a psychologist and a magician, and God help the medium. There is a book now out of print which my father wrote called "The Truth About Spiritualism" in which he puts so-called spiritualists as falling into one of two categories. There are practicing frauds -- deliberately working for gain or for glory -- and there are people who are self-deceived. I think in that book he says "with one possible exception."
"These two physicians [Dr. and Mrs. Sadler] became interested in this case. This man would go to sleep and he'd talk and what came out was intriguing and different. He was never interested in the lost watch or the stock market or in talking with your Uncle George who had passed on -- never anything practical. This was different; distinctly offbeat. About this time a Sunday evening meeting came to be organized at our house. It came about when Pop was giving a commencement address at Ames. I was in High School at the time and he wrote me a letter saying that we were not church people but that Sunday should be productive as well as a day of rest. He asked what I would say if they invited in some friends and they had a discussion group -- kind of a forum -- and talked about health and history and politics, etc. That group came into existence in, I think, 1922. This group became interested in spiritualism because Pop was writing on that subject at the time.
"My dad was mischievous -- there was a mind-reading show -- vaudeville at McVickers. Pop attended twice. He took a pair of wire cutters and clipped the wires that hooked the guy in the audience with the gal on the stage. At which point she fainted and they asked if there was a doctor in the audience, and Pop had the gall to go back and take care of her.
"At about this time I was in Nicaragua so some of what I tell you is hearsay. 1924 to 1928 will be hearsay, but subsequent to 1928 I'll give you direct information. The question came up whether all such phenomena is fraudulent. My dad was an honest guy so he said there was one such case that was a puzzle. So they asked him to tell them about it. So the forum became intrigued with the shorthand notes that had been taken of things this man talked about.
"One evening when they were talking to this chap, a kind of an argument came up. They were talking with someone who claimed to be a "Mighty Messenger." They asked if he could prove he was a Mighty Messenger. " No," he said, "but you can't prove I'm not either. If you knew what I know, you wouldn't ask these half-baked questions. You would prepare some of the most deep, searching and far-reaching questions you could possibly imagine."
"My father was half English and half Irish and he got kind of mad -- they were checking out this phenomena and here they were being challenged. Pop looked at the others in the group and said, "Lets take him up on it."
"So the next Sunday when the Forum met the whole group came in on the deal. I was told that approximately five thousand questions were given. Some were silly -- how old is God, who created him, and so forth. What happened was this -- one day the questions were gone and where the questions were kept was the first of the Urantia Papers and was entitled, "The Universal Father."
"I'll tell you how I think this paper was written. And my theory is not one-hundred percent correct. But its the best I can find. Visualize several places in space -- points A, B, C and D. I think the papers were dictated or conceived at point A and had we been there when any of these papers were written we would have seen nothing. A Divine Counselor is presenting his concepts in the language of Uversa. A translator is there who translates it into the language of Salvington. There is another translator there who translates from the language of Salvington to the language of Satania and another translator who translates from Satania into English. You cannot translate from Uversa into English because the languages are too far apart.
"I suspect that 99% of the original concept was lost in translation -- English is too primitive a language. Take Bantu where they have one, two and then "many" -- the end of their numbers -- and you want to translate into large number systems, you simply can't do it. See the problem?
"Point A was linked by some sort of communication circuit to point B. At point B there would be something to see, but it would be rather dull. It would be a man asleep -- doing nothing. Remember the resurrection and the way the stone was moved by the Midwayers? At point C you would see a pencil moving over paper with no visible means of motion. That's where the physical writing took place. Now point D would be where we found the papers. This individual was never seen to write one of these papers -- and don't think we weren't wearing gumshoes looking. If he wrote them he was more clever than us -- he was never observed to write them.
"We tried everything we could think of to see how this was being done, but were baffled. The text was entirely written in pencil -- all in the handwriting of this individual who remarked that if they ever wanted to draw on his bank account he'd be a dead duck because the bank would pay on their signature.
"Who was this guy? I took an oath not to divulge who he was. That was required of all who know his identity and it was required by the commissioner who sponsored the last of the papers. We think we know why it was required. He would have asked us to maintain secrecy. One of the reasons this chap was picked is that he has a passion for anonymity -- a very stable man -- the exact opposite of what you think someone associated with this would be like. His head was solidly on his shoulders and his feet solidly on the ground -- someone who would be ashamed to be mixed up with something spooky. He doesn't want to be known.
"These papers were read to the forum. At the end of each paper was a note suggesting the next title on which questions should be asked. This is how they led us through the first time. They were read to the forum and they generated more questions and over a period of years this book accumulated. And eventually when we had money we published.
"In 1950 we completed the preparation of our plates. As money came in we forecast inflation, so we took the money we had and spent it in getting Donnelley to prepare the plates. If you went to Chicago, you'd see that the Urantia Foundation was established in 1950 by the anonymous donation of the plates of The Urantia Book. We got nickel coated plates. If you write to Donnelley, they'll tell you they negotiated with Kellogg. The Urantia Foundation owns the copyright. There are five trustees. In about 1954 these five trustees selected thirty-six people who organized the Urantia Brotherhood. The book was published in October of 1955 and has been spreading ever since.
"I was there most of the time. I'm a management man, not the kind of man you would expect to see mixed up in something like this -- and I was very suspicious of all this. I asked myself, "Who is making what out of this? Where's the gold Cadillac in all this?" I checked it out and found that it was going to cost money. I realized there was no commercial end. And, as the book cleared up some personal quarrels I had with religion, I felt it was pretty good merchandise. So I elected to spend my spare time selling this. I don't get paid, but I get a lot of satisfaction. This is a first hand story except for the years from 1924 to 1928. And this is the first time this has ever been recorded."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Service of
The Fellowship for Readers of The Urantia Book
Subject:
Re: Shalom
Date:
Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:47:59 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
DEVEKUT@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
CC:
m-kabbalah@makelist.comTheurgus,
love%BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU.MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com,
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, rpcman%hotmail.com.dcombe@rain.org,
74277.3365@compuserve.com
Harve,
I've been surprised to learn that the most esoteric Chasidic Kabbalah
practices are also the simplest. So simple it starts to look
surprizingly like Dzogchen or Zen...looking at something until
all sense of "self" passes away and ony the awareness of the
object remains...or listening to whatever sounds there are, external
and internal sounds, without picking any one out to focus on, simply
"being with" all aural phenomon without discrimination, until all sense
of "self" passes away and all that exists is sound.
The passing of away of "self" is the attainment of the Ein Sof.
This could be done at all times...even walking.
Ken Shaw
Subject:
Re: Shalom
Date:
Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:13:50 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Randall Shortridge ,
Beth any , proclus ,
rpc man ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
Dave ,
"Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
Theurgus
References:
1
Theurgus@aol.com wrote:
>
> Harve,
>
> I've been surprised to learn that the most esoteric Chasidic Kabbalah
> practices are also the simplest. So simple it starts to look
> surprizingly like Dzogchen or Zen...looking at something until
> all sense of "self" passes away and ony the awareness of the
> object remains...or listening to whatever sounds there are, external
> and internal sounds, without picking any one out to focus on, simply
> "being with" all aural phenomon without discrimination, until all sense
> of "self" passes away and all that exists is sound.
>
> The passing of away of "self" is the attainment of the Ein Sof.
>
> This could be done at all times...even walking.
For me, this is a kind of unconditional love, or awe, in which
consciousness of self is simply forgotten. What is left is the vastness
of direct experience, unfiltered by the mind.
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
Re: Classics and Mediterranean Archeology
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:37:56 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com,
jswick@cris.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
Proclus,
I got man...woohuu...what a gold mine!
You da' man!
Ken
Subject:
Classics and Mediterranean Archeology
Date:
Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:47:44 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
"proclus@mac.com" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org"
I think that everyone on this list will find a link that they love on this
fabulous web page; http://rome.classics.lsa.umich.edu/. I'm adding it to my
Good Reading folder. Enjoy!
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
Re: Classics and Mediterranean Archeology
Date:
Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:00:52 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
proclus , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Theurgus@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
Absolutely rockin.
Thankyoueversomuch! JSW
Subject:
Re: Hello again!
Date:
Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:53:09 -0500
From:
kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
proclus@mac.com
CC:
Theurgus@aol.com
Proclus,
We really need to invite this guy into the circle.
What do you think?
Ken
----- Begin Included Message -----
>From davied@color-country.net Fri Jun 26 08:40:53 1998
From: Davied Israel
Reply-To: davied@color-country.net
Organization: Sons Aumen Israel
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ken Shaw
Subject: Re: Hello again!
References: ?.KAA07297@laytex.eng.cyrix.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Lines: 38
Shalom Kenneth, Our small, would be, community is located just over the
border of Arizona, about 25 miles from Hurricane Utah and about 5 miles from
Colorado City (Short Creek). We have ten acres of paid for, consecrated land,
petitioned off into 64 lots. You are welcome to visit any time.
We changed the spelling of our name so that it now equals 888, the
Gematria value or number anciently associated with "Christ".
Our position on Joseph is that he was indeed a Terton, sent by the
enlightened ones to build a bridge not between heaven and earth, but between
one lower rung of the religious ladder (Protestantism) and a slightly higher
level of Law. We do not feel it was his mission or calling to create a
complete spiritual path capable of causing total enlightenment and
transcendence, only bring a darkened and select few a little closer toward the
light - a few steps of a thousand mile journey.
We believe that he did not restore original Christianity as most Mormons
believe, but only pointed out the need among a people karmicly unprepared to
do so. Much of our work has been along these lines, and we can truthfully say
that modern Tibetan Buddhism is closer to true original Christianity than
either Mormonism or modern non-monasti c Christianity in all her varied forms.
With this statement we do not discount the prophetic role of Joseph the Seer,
but realistically weigh the fruits of his recent earthly labor in light of the
great spiritual paths of the past and present which are so easily discounted
by those who erroneously think all truth was successfully gathered home to
Mormonism.
It is our witness that Joseph continues to function as a Bodhisatva, no
longer concentrating on the limited field of outer and inner Mormonism as he
did during his early 1800's incarnation, but focusing instead on creating Sons
Aumen Israel as a channel and open door for those of this tradition, and other
traditions, to continue climbing up the Ladder of Light toward full
enlightenment and true exaltation.
We feel led and influenced not only by Joseph, but also by Padmasambhava,
the Rumi and other great spiritual masters and bodhisatvas. We pray their
efforts in our behalf will not be in vain as we seek continual Refuge in the
Triple Treasury of Aumen, Son Aumen and Sons Aumen.
With our shared appreciation of both Joseph and Padmasambhava, perhaps we
will find that it will be possible for us to work together to some extent
during this, our present incarnation. Write back soon....
May Aumen bless you and keep you .... Davied
----- End Included Message -----
Subject:
Re: Hello again!
Date:
Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:17:50 -0500
From:
kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
davied@color-country.net
CC:
proclus@mac.com
Davied,
Thanks for getting back to me. Somehow we ended up coming to the
same conclusions. I even did some time hanging out with Eastern
Orthodoxy...I LOVE the Icons on your website...I see Hesychasm
as perfectly continous with the Vajrayana...that goes for Chasidic
Kabbalah as well. It look like we are looking at a single system
with regional variations.
I really want to come up there as visit you folks.
Ken
Subject:
le bundle
Date:
Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:10:12 -0400
From:
Michael Love
To:
proclus
Subject:
Re: query?pg=q&text=yes&kl=en&q=-sons-ahman-israel-&act=search (fwd)
Date:
Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:02:00 -0400
From:
Randall Shortridge
Organization:
State University of New York
To:
Dave
CC:
74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos ,
bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu,
jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kens@cyrix.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
Sefirot1@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, younbarb@isu.edu
References:
1
Sorry of my message is redundant. I have been too busy to read all my
messages and just happened accross this one. But, I thought I might
answer.
I didn't see the SAI (Sons Ahman Israel) website in your list from the
web search. Here it is: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5774/
Also, you might notice that the Oracles of Mahonri from Absalom (Terry
Lofthouse's site) are different from those on the SAI site. I wrote
Davied Israel and asked him why there were differences. He told me that
the changes were "clarifications" according to "new understanding". So,
Lofthouse posts the earlier version (correctly) and SAI posts the
revised ones.
Randall Shortridge
Dave wrote:
> Below is the results of an altavista search for the terms "sons ahman
> israel"
>
> Dave
>
> Dave Combe
> dcombe@rain.org
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave
> To: dcombe@rain.org
> Subject: query?pg=q&text=yes&kl=en&q=-sons-ahman-israel-&act=search
>
> AltaVista Search Service - Search - Zones - Services - Help -
> Feedback
>
> Search the Web for documents in [English.....]
> __________________________________________________
> ___search ___refine ______
> Tip: For better result, use many words in your query. More tips
>
> Search - Advanced - Usenet
>
> 7 matches were found.
>
> Real NameSM Address - "sons ahman israel"
> Subscribe your company, brands and trademarks to the Real
> Name
> System.
>
> 1. 6 Mohonri -- mysteries of Godliness
> [URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/mohonri6.html]
> Wherefore it is given unto me to know, that the first three
> mysteries of immersion, confirmation, and partaking of the
> meal
> of the messiah, are to be
> Last modified 3-Apr-98 - page size 21K - in English [
> Translate
> ]
>
> 2. 2 Jared -- rites of heaven
> [URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/jared2.html]
> Now I Jared, according to the command of God and in the will
> of
> Mohonri my brother, undertake to engrave hereon mine
> feelings
> and experiences as pertain
> Last modified 31-Mar-98 - page size 13K - in English [
> Translate ]
>
> 3. 8 Mohonri -- laws of spiritual light and truth
> [URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/mohonri8.html]
> For the ordinances of light, designed of the Elohim to
> redeem
> us from the carnal nature of fallen man, had not yet become
> spiritual realities in all of
> Last modified 31-Mar-98 - page size 40K - in English [
> Translate ]
>
> 4. The Oracles of Mohonri -- Sealed portion of Book of Mormon
> [URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/]
> Written by the hand of Mohonri Moriancumer, the brother of
> Jared, upon gold plates taken from the sealed portion of the
>
> Book of Mormon.
> Last modified 7-Apr-98 - page size 12K - in English [
> Translate
> ]
>
> 5. 1 Jared -- Writings from the gold plates
> [URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/jared1.html]
> Now I Jared, according to the command of God and in the will
> of
> Mohonri my brother, undertake to engrave hereon mine
> feelings
> and experiences as pertain
> Last modified 2-Apr-98 - page size 4K - in English [
> Translate
> ]
>
> 6. 4 Mohonri -- conception of spiritual families in heaven
> [URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/mohonri4.html]
> It came to pass that I began to perceive that in truth I had
>
> been given a new birth, and been bound together with the
> holy
> ones through a new breath, yet
> Last modified 4-Apr-98 - page size 28K - in English [
> Translate
> ]
>
> 7. The New Covenant Church of God/Guds Nye Pakts Kirke (Sperrebotn,
>
> Norway)
> [URL: www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbowie/restore/nyepakts.html]
> The New Covenant Church of God/Guds Nye Pakts Kirke. In
> response to my letter requesting information from the New
> Covenant Church of God, i received a...
> Last modified 18-Jul-96 - page size 36K - in English [
> Translate ]
>
> word count: sons ahman israel: 7
>
>
> Search | Zones | Services | Help | Feedback
> Copyright (c) 1995-98 Compaq Computer Corporation | Disclaimer |
> Privacy
> About AltaVista | Set your Preferences | Add a Page | Graphic
> Version
Subject:
Re: mailing lists
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:00:30 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Neoptolmus@aol.com
To:
Theurgus@aol.com, love@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, jswick@cris.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
ariel144@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com, dcombe@rain.org,
74277.3365@compuserve.com
Ken,
Are Sons Ahman Israel computerized now? Do they have a web-site? I found them
in '91 when I had just gotten off of my mission and corresponded with them for
a while. I haven't heard from them in years. Do you have any further
information?
---Trevor
Subject:
Re: Classics and Mediterranean Archeology
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Neoptolmus@aol.com
To:
proclus@mac.com
In a message dated 98-06-24 23:47:15 EDT, you write:
<< http://rome.classics.lsa.umich.edu/ >>
thanks for the link. we budding young classicists thrive on such stuff.
Subject:
Wardle the dentist.
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:14:58 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Neoptolmus@aol.com
To:
jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, Theurgus@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, dcombe@rain.org
Did any of you ever hear of a dentist named Wardle in SLC? He had a gargantuan
collection of Occult/UFO/Masonic books that have just been recently placed in
Ken Sanders Books in SLC. I bought a couple of his books on secret societies,
and someone else has cleaned out the stuff on Swedenbourg, but there is
plently left on the Masons. His giant UFO and Tarot collections will probably
be donated to a library or university (according to Mr. Sanders). Evidently he
had over 600 Tarot decks. I wanted to look at them, but was unable to. BTW ...
while I was in the shop I noticed a book on anti-Masonic writers by Art
DeHoyos!!!
Anyhow, if anyone knows anything about Mr. Wardle or (on another note) the
Essenes of Kosmon (or Faithists) in SLC, please let me know.
---Trevor
Subject:
Re: Wardle the dentist.
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:29:31 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Neoptolmus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, Theurgus@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, dcombe@rain.org
Is this the infamous James D. Wardle, whose name and likeness appears in the
Tanner stuff? Man, I wish I was in SLC right now.... I'd love to see this
collection.
JSW
-----Original Message-----
From: Neoptolmus@aol.com
To: jswick@cris.com proclus@mac.com
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com
kathleen@enol.com trent@goodnet.com
Theurgus@aol.com
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu rpcman@hotmail.com
dcombe@rain.org
Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 8:15 AM
Subject: Wardle the dentist.
>Did any of you ever hear of a dentist named Wardle in SLC? He had a
gargantuan
>collection of Occult/UFO/Masonic books that have just been recently placed
in
>Ken Sanders Books in SLC. I bought a couple of his books on secret
societies,
>and someone else has cleaned out the stuff on Swedenbourg, but there is
>plently left on the Masons. His giant UFO and Tarot collections will
probably
>be donated to a library or university (according to Mr. Sanders). Evidently
he
>had over 600 Tarot decks. I wanted to look at them, but was unable to. BTW
...
>while I was in the shop I noticed a book on anti-Masonic writers by Art
>DeHoyos!!!
>
>Anyhow, if anyone knows anything about Mr. Wardle or (on another note) the
>Essenes of Kosmon (or Faithists) in SLC, please let me know.
>
>---Trevor
>
Subject:
Re: Wardle the dentist.
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:46:30 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
Neoptolmus@aol.com, jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, dcombe@rain.org
Tevor,
I'm trying to find my way back to the Sons Ahman Israel website.
It's pretty impressive.
I remember walking past Wadle's stor front office in Salt Lake a
bunch of time and peering in at the great big Tree of Life diagram
on the wall. I never had the chutzpa to talk to him.
Ken
Subject:
"self" and "no self"
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:49:16 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
jswick@cris.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, dcombe@rain.org
Sage,
In sufism there is a technical term "baka" which
is refering to the continuing of experience and an
"experiencer" even though "self" has passed away.
The Buddhists would say that the "experiencer"
is not an isolated "enity" but rather the whole of existance
itself, the "whole of existance" being an undifferentiated
field of "mind", "consciousness" or "being".
Ken
Subject:
query?pg=q&text=yes&kl=en&q=-sons-ahman-israel-&act=search (fwd)
Date:
Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:41:20 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Dave
To:
74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos ,
bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, Dave , gaia@nmol.com,
headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, kens@cyrix.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, Sefirot1@aol.com, trent@goodnet.com, younbarb@isu.edu
Below is the results of an altavista search for the terms "sons ahman
israel"
Dave
Dave Combe
dcombe@rain.org
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dave
To: dcombe@rain.org
Subject: query?pg=q&text=yes&kl=en&q=-sons-ahman-israel-&act=search
AltaVista Search Service - Search - Zones - Services - Help - Feedback
Search the Web for documents in [English.....]
__________________________________________________
___search ___refine ______
Tip: For better result, use many words in your query. More tips
Search - Advanced - Usenet
7 matches were found.
Real NameSM Address - "sons ahman israel"
Subscribe your company, brands and trademarks to the Real Name
System.
1. 6 Mohonri -- mysteries of Godliness
[URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/mohonri6.html]
Wherefore it is given unto me to know, that the first three
mysteries of immersion, confirmation, and partaking of the meal
of the messiah, are to be
Last modified 3-Apr-98 - page size 21K - in English [ Translate
]
2. 2 Jared -- rites of heaven
[URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/jared2.html]
Now I Jared, according to the command of God and in the will of
Mohonri my brother, undertake to engrave hereon mine feelings
and experiences as pertain
Last modified 31-Mar-98 - page size 13K - in English [
Translate ]
3. 8 Mohonri -- laws of spiritual light and truth
[URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/mohonri8.html]
For the ordinances of light, designed of the Elohim to redeem
us from the carnal nature of fallen man, had not yet become
spiritual realities in all of
Last modified 31-Mar-98 - page size 40K - in English [
Translate ]
4. The Oracles of Mohonri -- Sealed portion of Book of Mormon
[URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/]
Written by the hand of Mohonri Moriancumer, the brother of
J ared, upon gold plates taken from the sealed portion of the
Book of Mormon.
Last modified 7-Apr-98 - page size 12K - in English [ Translate
]
5. 1 Jared -- Writings from the gold plates
[URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/jared1.html]
Now I Jared, according to the command of God and in the will of
Mohonri my brother, undertake to engrave hereon mine feelings
and experiences as pertain
Last modified 2-Apr-98 - page size 4K - in English [ Translate
]
6. 4 Mohonri -- conception of spiritual families in heaven
[URL: www.absalom.com/mormon/mohonri/mohonri4.html]
It came to pass that I began to perceive that in truth I had
been given a new birth, and been bound together with the holy
ones through a new breath, yet
Last modified 4-Apr-98 - page size 28K - in English [ Translate
]
7. The New Covenant Church of God/Guds Nye Pakts Kirke (Sperrebotn,
Norway)
[URL: www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbowie/restore/nyepakts.html]
The New Covenant Church of God/Guds Nye Pakts Kirke. In
response to my letter requesting information from the New
Covenant Church of God, i received a...
Last modified 18-Jul-96 - page size 36K - in English [
Translate ]
word count: sons ahman israel: 7
Search | Zones | Services | Help | Feedback
Copyright (c) 1995-98 Compaq Computer Corporation | Disclaimer |
Privacy
About AltaVista | Set your Preferences | Add a Page | Graphic Version
Subject:
response from Davidied
Date:
Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:02:44 -0500
From:
kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
dcombe@rain.org, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
CC:
74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com,
CYeshua@aol.com, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
kens@cyrix.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com,
rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com
Hail Mutants!
I'm forwarding the response I got back from Davidied.
My impression is that these folks are trying to do a
true thing, but it also looks like the "Oracles of
Mahonri" were basicly a pious fraud. This has probably
hurt his efforts, but my interpretaion of his actions is
that he needed to operate within the thought world of
sectarian "Mormon Fundamentalism", and that he was doing
what Buddhism calls "expedient means"...you do what you
have to do to coax children out of a burning house.
Ken Shaw
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shalom Kenneth, Our small, would be, community is located just over the
border of Arizona, about 25 miles from Hurricane Utah and about 5 miles from
Colorado City (Short Creek). We have ten acres of paid for, consecrated land,
petitioned off into 64 lots. You are welcome to visit any time.
We changed the spelling of our name so that it now equals 888, the
Gematria value or number anciently associated with "Christ".
Our position on Joseph is that he was indeed a Terton, sent by the
enlightened ones to build a bridge not between heaven and earth, but between
one lower rung of the religious ladder (Protestantism) and a slightly higher
level of Law. We do not feel it was his mission or calling to create a
complete spiritual path capable of causing total enlightenment and
transcendence, only bring a darkened and select few a little closer toward the
light - a few steps of a thousand mile journey.
We believe that he did not restore original Christianity as most Mormons
believe, but only pointed out the need among a people karmicly unprepared to
do so. Much of our work has been along these lines, and we can truthfully say
that modern Tibetan Buddhism is closer to true original Christianity than
either Mormonism or modern non-monastic Christianity in all her varied forms.
With this statement we do not discount the prophetic role of Joseph the Seer,
but realistically weigh the fruits of his recent earthly labor in light of the
great spiritual paths of the past and present which are so easily discounted
by those who erroneously think all truth was successfully gathered home to
Mormonism.
It is our witness that Joseph continues to function as a Bodhisatva, no
longer concentrating on the limited field of outer and inner Mormonism as he
did during his early 1800's incarnation, but focusing instead on creating Sons
Aumen Israel as a channel and open door for those of this tradition, and other
traditions, to continue climbing up the Ladder of Light toward full
enlightenment and true exaltation.
We feel led and influenced not only by Joseph, but also by Padmasambhava,
the Rumi and other great spiritual masters and bodhisatvas. We pray their
efforts in our behalf will not be in vain as we seek continual Refuge in the
Triple Treasury of Aumen, Son Aumen and Sons Aumen.
With our shared appreciation of both Joseph and Padmasambhava, perhaps we
will find that it will be possible for us to work together to some extent
during this, our present incarnation. Write back soon....
May Aumen bless you and keep you .... Davied
Subject:
I mean "Davied"
Date:
Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:38:58 -0500
From:
kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
dcombe@rain.org, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, kens@cyrix.com
CC:
74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, bethany0@hotmail.com,
CYeshua@aol.com, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Neoptolmus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
trent@goodnet.com
Sorry... it's actually "Davied".
Ken
Subject:
Re: response from Davidied
Date:
Sat, 27 Jun 1998 13:59:07 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Neoptolmus@aol.com
To:
kens@cyrix.com, dcombe@rain.org, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
CC:
74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu,
jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, proclus@mac.com,
rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com
Ken,
So you feel that he was conscious of fraud in the oracles, but felt justified
by a higher purpose? Is it possible that his concept of revelation is closer
to inspired composition . . . i.e. that the oracles have the all too obvious
20th century touch, but that the author felt inspired in what he was doing? It
seems to me that you are suggesting that Davied felt Mormonism was wrong, and
that he was using dishonest means to lead Mormons elsewhere. I always felt the
Sons Ahman (as they used to be called instead of Aumen) honestly felt they had
recieved higher knowledge and rituals. Have I been hoodwinked?
---Trevor
Subject:
Re: response from Davidied
Date:
Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:04:35 -0500
From:
kens@cyrix.com (Ken Shaw)
To:
kens@cyrix.com, dcombe@rain.org, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, Neoptolmus@aol.com
CC:
74277.3365@compuserve.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
bethany0@hotmail.com, CYeshua@aol.com, gaia@nmol.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu,
jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, proclus@mac.com,
rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com
Trevor-
When I said "pious fraud" I meant it in the sense that is used to describe
the production of all "psuedepigrapha" by western scholars. But this opens
the whole can of worms of how "revelation" actually works. The standard
LDS image is that external agencies act on the reciever from the outside.
But this view is based on an awkward materialist metaphysics that sees
"God" as an "object" existing in space, who sends angels through space
to do His bidding. This "objectivist" view ignores other parts of Joseph
Smith's teachings, principly the "Lectures of Faith". A close inspection
of the "Lectures of Faith" shows that Joseph concieved of "The Spirit"
as the "God of gods", the Spirit filling all in all and "giving the Father
and the Son the same Mind, Spirit, Glory and Power".
It looks to me like Davied is having genuine intuitions of a higher order,
but one has to chose what clothes to dress those intuitions in. He needed
to "clothe" his insight in a form that is recognizable to his target community.
Counsciously or unconsciouly he dressed it in the clothes of a Mormon
prophetic expectation, the sealed portion of the Gold Plates.
I forwarded Davied's response to you because he states plainly that he thinks
Joesph Smith didn't restore "original Christianity" at all, but that he came
to "soften up" a target population to begin to think more flexibly.
Davied is doing what I'm trying to do, following the TRAJECTORY of Joseph's
teachings to thier logical outcome. It looks like Joseph Smith functioned
like a "Terton" in the Bonpo and Nyingma Tibetan Trantric traditions.
Ceromonial Magic, Kabbalah and Fremasonry all lead back to Islamic Gnosis
(Sufi and Isma'ili). Sufism, Buddhism and Vedanta all describe Existance
as pure "consciousnes" such that each one of us is none other than "That One",
but are in state of amnesia while the cosmic process unfolds.
There is no "God" that exists seperate from ourselves or from nature, but
there are "individual expressions" of That One though the medium of organic
life, and every "individual" organism is pushed from within to "Awaken"
as regain its true identity as "That One". Each of us is already omniscient
and omipresent at some level, but there are "obscurations" covering our
"True Self" that create the illusion of seperatness, and cause all our
fear and suffering. Some people have glimmerings of "Awakening" that give
raise to direct intuitions of Reality, but because of their own "obscurations"
believe the source to be external to themselves. Some people are "Awake"
enough to realize dimly that this is what's happening, and struggle to find
a way to present their perceptions to their community in a way that will be
"usable" by that community.
Kenneth Shaw
>
> Ken,
> So you feel that he was conscious of fraud in the oracles, but felt justified
> by a higher purpose? Is it possible that his concept of revelation is closer
> to inspired composition . . . i.e. that the oracles have the all too obvious
> 20th century touch, but that the author felt inspired in what he was doing? It
> seems to me that you are suggesting that Davied felt Mormonism was wrong, and
> that he was using dishonest means to lead Mormons elsewhere. I always felt the
> Sons Ahman (as they used to be called instead of Aumen) honestly felt they had
> recieved higher knowledge and rituals. Have I been hoodwinked?
> ---Trevor
>
Subject:
Getting dumped is hard to take.
Date:
Sun, 28 Jun 1998 04:36:05 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@HOTMAIL.COM, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
CC:
Theurgus@aol.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com
Hail Mutants!
I was "engaged" to get married to a fine lady in Pocatello...until two
days ago...when she anounced she "needs her space". That is pussy
talk for "get lost loser".
It seems that I was making a point of sending her copies of my various
rantings on the subjects of religion, metaphysics, psychedelics, Mormon
Sectarian curiousia, ect...an she decided that the map I was showing her
of my inner world......didn't go anywhere she particularly wanted to go.
Please make a point of removing any occurances of "younbarb@isu.edu"
on your "reply all".
One last thought...Marx was right...religion IS poison...but for different
reasons than he thought. Any IDEA we have of "God....is an image...an
image made by human artifice...an image without substance...an empty
image that has no power to save.
Kenneth Shaw
PS.
Be sure to add Theurgus@aol.com and ArtdeHoyos@aol.com to future mail.
Subject:
Re: Getting dumped is hard to take.
Date:
Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:37:48 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Theurgus@aol.com
CC:
jswick@cris.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@HOTMAIL.COM, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org,
"ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" ,
"proclus@mac.com"
References:
1
Theurgus@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hail Mutants!
All hail radical mormons!
> I was "engaged" to get married to a fine lady in Pocatello...until two
> days ago...when she anounced she "needs her space". That is pussy
> talk for "get lost loser".
>
> It seems that I was making a point of sending her copies of my various
> rantings on the subjects of religion, metaphysics, psychedelics, Mormon
> Sectarian curiousia, ect...an she decided that the map I was showing her
> of my inner world......didn't go anywhere she particularly wanted to go.
I hope that this is not causing you too much distress, my friend. You know,
my wife shares none of my interest in any of this stuff. We started out as
very different people, so the difference is kind of assumed (viva la
difference!). There are many fish in the sea, and you may find yourself
attracted to people for surprising reasons. We are really only called one
flesh. In reality, woman is the Eternal Other.
Best Regards,
proclus
> One last thought...Marx was right...religion IS poison...but for different
> reasons than he thought. Any IDEA we have of "God....is an image...an
> image made by human artifice...an image without substance...an empty
> image that has no power to save.
>
> Kenneth Shaw
>
> PS.
>
> Be sure to add Theurgus@aol.com and ArtdeHoyos@aol.com to future mail.
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
psychedelics
Date:
Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:59:58 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
"proclus@mac.com" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org"
References:
1 , 2
Yer mention of psychedelics reminded me that I'm getting the Terence's Alien
Dreamtime vid from Amazon. You all may remember a little real audio clip of
Terence that we listened to a while back. Well that was apparently from this
video, and the visuals rock ;-}. I'll let you know what I think about it when
it arrives.
proclus
BTW, if you are into rockin visuals, you should rent a Pink Floyd concert vid.
I was cruisin for two hours after watching the last on that we rented from
the library.
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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Subject:
Re: psychedelics
Date:
Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:42:30 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com, trent@goodnet.com,
jswick@cris.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
Proclus,
Back in the Eighties I hooked up with the last ragged remainder
of the "old-line" Mormon Fundamentalists in Utah. This line of
tradition believed that the "Keys of the Priesthood" had been taken
from the Gentiles (LDS) and given to Israel (Native Americans) in
1890, at the mysterious events at Pyramid Lake in Nevada that
started the Ghost Dance movement.
They where looking for the appearance of the "Indian Prophet" who
would lead the Lamanites, as a "nation born in a day", in a Holy War
against the Gentiles of North America, just as the Israelite wiped out
the Cannanites to purify the land from the sins of the Nephilim.
Only the "Repentant Gentiles", those who kept the "old ways" and lived
as much like an Israelite as possible, would be saved from this genocide.
They would be "numbered among the Children of Jacob", adopted into
Israel, and assist the true (Indian) Israelites in building the New Jerusalem.
This is why the "old-line" Fundamentalists never organized a "counter-church"
like the next generation did, they didn't believe anyone had any authority to
organize anything.
The reason I bring this up is that at one point I actually thought Terence
McKenna
was the "spokesman" for the coming "Indian Prophet". I was pretty looped
about
the whole "True Halucinations" thing in the early 90's. I'm still wondering
about it.
One thing IS for sure...he is a spokesman for the indiginous peoples of the
Americas.
Kenneth Shaw
Subject:
Re: psychedelics
Date:
Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:05:24 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
Ken:
I am wondering how your current journeys inform your earlier experiences?
What is your present view of your earlier involvment with Independent
Fundamentalism?
Blessings, Brother.
JSW
-----Original Message-----
From: Theurgus@aol.com
To: proclus@mac.com MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com
kathleen@enol.com
trent@goodnet.com jswick@cris.com
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu rpcman@hotmail.com
onandagus@webtv.net
Neoptolmus@aol.com dcombe@rain.org
Date: Sunday, June 28, 1998 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: psychedelics
>Proclus,
>
>Back in the Eighties I hooked up with the last ragged remainder
>of the "old-line" Mormon Fundamentalists in Utah. This line of
>tradition believed that the "Keys of the Priesthood" had been taken
>from the Gentiles (LDS) and given to Israel (Native Americans) in
?, at the mysterious events at Pyramid Lake in Nevada that
>started the Ghost Dance movement.
>
>They where looking for the appearance of the "Indian Prophet" who
>would lead the Lamanites, as a "nation born in a day", in a Holy War
>against the Gentiles of North America, just as the Israelite wiped out
>the Cannanites to purify the land from the sins of the Nephilim.
>
>Only the "Repentant Gentiles", those who kept the "old ways" and lived
>as much like an Israelite as possible, would be saved from this genocide.
>
>They would be "numbered among the Children of Jacob", adopted into
>Israel, and assist the true (Indian) Israelites in building the New
Jerusalem.
>
>This is why the "old-line" Fundamentalists never organized a
"counter-church"
>like the next generation did, they didn't believe anyone had any authority
to
>organize anything.
>
>The reason I bring this up is that at one point I actually thought Terence
>McKenna
>was the "spokesman" for the coming "Indian Prophet". I was pretty looped
>about
>the whole "True Halucinations" thing in the early 90's. I'm still
wondering
>about it.
>
>One thing IS for sure...he is a spokesman for the indiginous peoples of the
>Americas.
>
>Kenneth Shaw
>
Subject:
Re: Getting dumped is hard to take.
Date:
Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:15:50 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Theurgus@aol.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org
CC:
Theurgus@aol.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com
Ken:
I feel for the difficulties in your relationship. Spiritual travels can be a
very lonely business... it is not often that you find others that can
joyously and understandingly walk the Path with you. Of course, that's why
"He's" a Hermit. (^_^)
JSW
-----Original Message-----
From: Theurgus@aol.com
To: jswick@cris.com proclus@mac.com