If you want to join the discussion, just click here..
Back up to Mutant's Home
Subject:
RE: Key 16
Date:
Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:46:56 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" , "jswick@cris.com" ,
"rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick , "proclus@mac.com" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts
> The lightning bolt in the upper right-hand corner is the
> Kabbalistic lightning-flash which begins at KETER. If this were an ESOTERIC
> deck, the SUN from which the lightning bolt emanates would be visible in the
> upper right-hand corner of the Key. This lightening flash is precisely what
> the Magician is drawing down with his arm raised to the square in Key 1. The
> falling figures -- dressed in red and blue-- represent certain truths about
> the operation of the conscious and subconscious mind. Suffice it to say
> that they are connected with false knowledge, and this is the reason that in
> the aftermath of the lightening-strike, they are falling from their high
> place in the Tower of Human Intellect:
I wrote a series of apocalyptic songs years ago about a scary battle
between good and evil. These colors figured largely in the symbolism.
The 'red' and the 'blue' were unknowing pawns in the battle. The blue
were the naive pawns, and the red were the robotic pawns. Here is the
spectrum from good to evil that I used in the songs.
white/blue/red/black
Later I was a little surprised to see this motif in the Tower card. I
guess I had a subconscious link to it all along ;-}. BTW, I think that
this is one of the things I liked about Babylon 5. It is not hard to
map the Vorlon/Shadows struggle into this grid.
> See? While the image is definately "scary" in that it indicates big
> changes... we all know that change can be good. Now, listen carefully: The
> mouth as an organ of speech (The Word) emits vibration (the basis of
> creation) and communicates the will of the speaker (the One Life). The
> Tower is about revelation and its accompanying spoken prophecy. The light of
> truth strikes the "crown" like a thunderbolt. The opening created by the
> falling crown is itself a mouth, and a potent reminder of the force of
> words.
Blue goes white at initiation. He speaks the word, and signs the sign,
and takes his seat among the starry host (cf. Council of the Gods).
Tongues of fire, speaking thunder
Tongues of fire, words of wonder
Tongues of fire, turning time
Tongues of fire, in every rhyme.
The word that he learns is that spoken at the beginning of creation.
When he speaks it, the universe becomes new again.
Well, I think that we are raising a few sparks here. On the other hand
the open mouth is also the devouring leviathan, so BEWARE! ;-}
> Kerry:
> I'm outclassed here. I don't belong here with all this brain power. I feel
> humble (which goes against my nature - GRIN!).
Oh puleaz, Kerry. You are super brain, or you wouldn't be here.
Welcome to the circle, you scoundrel. (proclus slaps Kerry on the back.)
> In other words, THANKS for the discourse man,
Ditto this and double. I can't tell you, JSW, how much I appreciate
having you here. (proclus prepares for a big group hug ;-}.
> Hey, a
> suggestion........you all sitting down for this? Whaddya all think of us
> making a Mormon Tarot card deck??? Think about it, it could be a
> multi-national best selling set. I betchta we could work something out. Man
> that'd be a gas. The Hypocephalus could be the Wheel of Fortune card, etc.
> I'm tellin ya we could become a HUGE hit...... Man, the star card we could
> make from the Nauvoo temple star stone, (Also the sun stone), the strength
> card we could do Joseph Smith out stick pulling those two Illinois
> strongmen with one hand, the magician card could be Joseph Smith himself
> holding the Gold plates, Urim and Thummim, etc., the fool card could be
> Sidney Rigdon, or else Spaulding! etc., etc. We could have something
> here........
>
> Kerry A. "Mephisto" Shirts
_That_ I would love to see. How about Eliza Snow as High Priestess and
Emma as Empress! I don't know if this will work though. Aren't mormon
angels wingless?
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
Re: Welcome Kerry!
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:02:15 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick , "proclus@mac.com" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
"dcombe@rain.org" , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts
References:
1
Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> Realize that
> what we SEE BEST in the Keys is what we ARE.
I hope that you are right, because what I see in the Keys is a pretty
fantastic future ;-}. This is despite some pretty scary apocalyptic
images, like the Tower. As a reminder to the group, we have good
quality digitized images of the cards archived at the following addresses.
t0.html
t1.html
t2.html
> ___Proclus___
> Hehe, sounds like fun. I have always considered myself a mason in spirit,
> as you probably already know. I'm thinking that I would like to make it
> official soon after I'm finished at Brandeis U.
> -----
>
> Please keep me informed of any progress in this regard.
Will do.
Many Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
Key 16
Date:
Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:45:53 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
proclus , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Theurgus@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, Beth Quick ,
rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org,
Beth , Kerry Shirts ,
George Head , George Head
___JSW___
Realize that what we SEE BEST in the Keys is what we ARE.
___Proclus___
I hope that you are right, because what I see in the Keys is a pretty
fantastic future ;-}.
-----
Yes, the Tarot is exciting, but it is not for everyone. The perception of
danger most people feel when approaching the Tarot is intentional.
___Proclus___
This is despite some pretty scary apocalyptic images, like the Tower.
-----
It might be helpful for you to think of the Tower as a part of your internal
landscape. The Hebrew letter associated with this Key is PE, meaning the
MOUTH, and of course the upper part of the Tower is opened... just like a
mouth. This is not coincidental; part of the revelation of truth has to do
with speaking the truth. The Key tells us something about the overturning of
our mental constructs -- it is a symbol of REVELATION, which of course can
really shake us up. The lightning bolt in the upper right-hand corner is the
Kabbalistic lightning-flash which begins at KETER. If this were an ESOTERIC
deck, the SUN from which the lightning bolt emanates would be visible in the
upper right-hand corner of the Key. This lightening flash is precisely what
the Magician is drawing down with his arm raised to the square in Key 1. The
falling figures -- dressed in red and blue-- represent certain truths about
the operation of the conscious and subconscious mind. Suffice it to say
that they are connected with false knowledge, and this is the reason that in
the aftermath of the lightening-strike, they are falling from their high
place in the Tower of Human Intellect:
___Joseph Campbell___
What all the myths have to deal with is the transformation of the
consciousness -- that you're thinking in *this* way, and now you have to
think in *that* way.
___Bill Moyers___
Well, how is the consciousness transformed?
___Joseph Campbell___
By trials.
___Bill Moyers___
The test that the hero undergoes?
__Joseph Campbell___
Tests or certain illluminating revelations. Trials and revelations are what
its all about. (Joseph Campbell, _The Power of Myth_, "The Hero's
Adventure" CT 1)
See? While the image is definately "scary" in that it indicates big
changes... we all know that change can be good. Now, listen carefully: The
mouth as an organ of speech (The Word) emits vibration (the basis of
creation) and communicates the will of the speaker (the One Life). The
Tower is about revelation and its accompanying spoken prophecy. The light of
truth strikes the "crown" like a thunderbolt. The opening created by the
falling crown is itself a mouth, and a potent reminder of the force of
words.
One of the preoccupations of the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is "the
proper naming of things," which it describes as a fundamental human
responsibility. Confucius calls this "the rectification of names"; Heidegger
calls it "the redeeming of the word." Much more could be said along these
lines, but some reflection on what "naming" is will show you that it bears
a double nature -- it both destroys and creates. This is true whether we
are discussing human relationships, or Bosnia, or business.
It should be clear to any who have engaged in rituals that in the proper
ritual context, words become an act which carry the full weight of law;
speaking them may change the very fabric of reality. As the ability to
"speak" things into existence is a fundamental quality of Deity, the ritual
contexts which allow us to mirror this quality are extremely important. In
other words, God speaks the world into existence; and, by His word, the
world passes away. Similarly, our Reality (or perception of it, at least) is
mightily influenced for good and for ill by the power of words -- by how we
name things. I personally believe that this is what is being depicted in
Key 16.
The overthrowing of that which is false and illusory (represented by the
falling figures) is often preceded by a *spoken* truth. Such truth itself
originates from the light of truth (represented by the Sun). This truth
sometimes strikes the one blessed to receive it quite forcefully -- like a
thunderbolt straight from the sky. As it may overturn the very constructs
upon which our lives are built, the apprehension of new truth can be
confusing, disorienting --- how do we act in light of this new realization?
What will it mean in terms of our future behavior, etc. Being shaken in
this way can be quite distressing -- and seem more like a cursing than a
blessing! Perhaps this is
why frequently, those who receive/speak the prophetic word (e.g. Job) are
often perceived as being "smitten and afflicted of God."
Yet, as I noted earlier, in this context, the destruction and "overturning"
which is so evident in Key 16 is actually the first step necessary to
establish a firm structure. Expanding awareness may be jarring and sudden
when it first begins; the process which follows is often an ongoing
renovation (tearing down/ building up) as our understanding increases, which
is very demanding, but not nearly as disorienting as that first
"revelation," which hits us like a real "bolt from the blue."
LVX,
Joe Swick
Heretic
"There's a sign on the Door, but She wants to be sure;
'cause you know, sometimes words have two meanings."
Subject:
RE: Welcome Kerry!
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:32:41 -0500
From:
"McGuire, Andy"
To:
'Joe Steve Swick III' , proclus ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
rds , Beth Quick ,
rpcman , onandagus ,
Neoptolmus , dcombe ,
Beth , Kerry Shirts
Hello to Kerry. You brother rides his bicycle past the house once in a
while, and I wave at him. He has no bloody idea who I am.
Some comments about the Tarot that I must respond to...
> For Kerry's edification... no, I don't use Tarot for divination. I'm much
> more interested in a Jungian approach to the subject; I believe that the
> Keys are powerful symbols, encouraging deep a spiritual reflection that
> can
> be very healthy. IMHO, "divination" is a cheap activity using a powerful
> psychological tool.
>
>
[McGuire, Andy] "Cheap Activity" ????? Mmmmmm.
Halloween of 1997 I did Tarot readings at work. It was fun. I
found out later that I had competition at the other end of the building.
This last Halloween, I was officially asked by the fellowship commitee at
work to do Tarot readings again. It was fun, but it was also a very spooky
experience for me.
Before each reading I told the "victim" that it was only for fun,
don't take it seriously, etc.. But at least 80% of the readings ended with
the querent telling me that the reading was "incredible" that I had hit
things "right on the head", etc. etc. One of the last readings of the day,
the gal really rattled my cage by saying "Well. I think I'll go through
with the divorce then." (Oooh. Ouch.)
And at the end of the day I felt physically drained, as if I had
spent the day in heavy physical labor.
My experience leads me to disagree with calling divination "cheap".
I learned a lot from it.
As luck would have it, I am taking a Tarot class. The first session
was last Saturday, and goes for 6 weeks. I am the only person who showed up
for the class, but the teacher chose to go ahead and teach it anyway, so I
am getting personal attention. It has been interesting. For those of you
who use the tarot, I'll pass on my homework assignment for this last week:
Select a random card from the Major Arcana. Then place it next to each of
the Wands, one at a time. How does the meaning of the card (the Wand)
change under the influence of the other card? Repeat t his for each card in
the Major Arcana (ar at least as many as you have time for...). Next week,
I get to repeat it for another suit.
Oh yeah. I also won the prize for best costume at the halloween
party: Uncle Fester (That's right Mike. I shaved my head...)
> ___Proclus___
> Hehe, sounds like fun. I have always considered myself a mason in
> spirit,
> as you probably already know. I'm thinking that I would like to make it
> official soon after I'm finished at Brandeis U.
> -----
>
[McGuire, Andy]
Mike. A Mason "in spirit"? Remember what I said about applying a
label to yourself? One day, your bluff will be called. Remember the label
you applied to yourself during a phone conversation a while back? Want me
to call THAT bluff next time I see you? (Aside to Dave
Combe...wink...nudge...giggle...)
Well. Enough damage for now.
Buh Bye
Andy a.k.a. Lucretius a.k.a. AJ a.k.a. St Andrew the Dogmaphobe
Subject:
RE: Welcome Kerry!
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:56:38 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick , "rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" ,
Beth , Kerry Shirts ,
'proclus'
----------
From: proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:28 AM
To: Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds; Theurgus@aol.com;
jswick@cris.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; Beth Quick; proclus@mac.com;
rpcman@hotmail.com; onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com;
dcombe@rain.org; Beth; Kerry Shirts
Subject: Welcome Kerry!
Everyone welcome Kerry to the circle!
Why, THANK YA, THANK YA........
Kerry, this is your first message as an "official" mutantRM. As you
know, this is an informal group. For various reasons, we have chosen
not to use a listserver. This means that the list is not automated, and
you should do two things to participate. First, when you reply to
messages, you should select the "Reply All" or "Reply to sender and all
recipients" option. Second, if your email software has address book
capabilities, you should make a group of all the recipients in this
message. That way you can quickly broadcast to the whole group when you
want to.
KEWL!
> From: Joe Steve Swick III
> To: proclus
>
> ___Proclus___
> The tarot discussions were similarly life-transforming.
> -----
>
> Well, there is certainly a lot more to be said about this. We'll have to
> take up this topic again some time if you would like. I think George
would
> enjoy it immensely.
As would I;
That would be fabulous. Maybe Bob Black would like to come back for
that as well. I'm afraid that the tarot discussions got bogged down
last time because we had a few minor disagreements about some details.
Did I miss something? Let's agree to keep the discussion open. We need
to have some patience not to let small disagreements block the process.
Hopefully, we are all still learning something here. I know that I am.
I am just reading some Tarot books now as I join this list. I am looking
very forward to seeing just what in the sam hill we are going to learn.....
I think that you and Kerry have something in common here. You read
EVERYTHING! ;-} Holy Cow! I'm still reading The Sufis! You know,
sometimes grad school is the pits.
Oh calm down man. Once you get through it you can read all the other good
stuff - GRIN!
Many Regards,
proclus
> Cheers,
> JSW
Kerry A. "HEY! Since Mike goes by Proclus, and Andy by whatever the heck I
saw the other day, can I go my Mephisto? or Mephistopheles?" Shirts
Subject:
RE: Welcome Kerry!
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:01:00 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
'Joe Steve Swick III' , proclus ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Re ynolds" , Theurgus ,
rds , Beth Quick ,
rpcman , onandagus ,
Neoptolmus , dcombe ,
Beth , Kerry Shirts ,
"'McGuire, Andy'"
----------
From: McGuire, Andy[SMTP:Andy.McGuire@psc.bellhowell.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 7:32 AM
To: 'Joe Steve Swick III'; proclus; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R.
Trent Reynolds; Theurgus; rds; Beth Quick; rpcman; onandagus; Neoptolmus;
dcombe; Beth; Kerry Shirts
Subject: RE: Welcome Kerry!
Hello to Kerry. You brother rides his bicycle past the house once in a
while, and I wave at him. He has no bloody idea who I am.
HOWLING LAUGHTER!!! I bet he just thinks you are one of the Provo
nuts.......GRIN! Yell out to him next time that you said hi to his brother
Kerry......It'll probably give him a heart attack that you know me.
Some comments about the Tarot that I must respond to...
> For Kerry's edification... no, I don't use Tarot for divination. I'm much
> more interested in a Jungian approach to the subject; I believe that the
> Keys are powerful symbols, encouraging deep a spiritual reflection that
> can
> be very healthy. IMHO, "divination" is a cheap activity using a powerful
> psychological tool.
Joe said this, and I in large part agree.......
>
>
[McGuire, Andy] "Cheap Activity" ????? Mmmmmm.
Halloween of 1997 I did Tarot readings at work. It was fun. I
found out later that I had competition at the other end of the building.
This last Halloween, I was officially asked by the fellowship commitee at
work to do Tarot readings again. It was fun, but it was also a very spooky
experience for me.
Before each reading I told the "victim" that it was only for fun,
don't take it seriously, etc.. But at least 80% of the readings ended with
the querent telling me that the reading was "incredible" that I had hit
things "right on the head", etc. etc. One of the last readings of the day,
the gal really rattled my cage by saying "Well. I think I'll go through
with the divorce then." (Oooh. Ouch.)
Kerry:
Yer braver than I. I just read about em......I have some great stuff to
start flippin out this way on the Tarot if you guys are up to it.
As luck would have it, I am taking a Tarot class.
Kerry:
IN PROVO???? Kewl! Can you share some with us?
(snip homework assignment)
Buh Bye
Andy a.k.a. Lucretius a.k.a. AJ a.k.a. St Andrew the Dogmaphobe
Kerry A. "Mephistopheles" Shirts
Subject:
RE: Key 16
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:10:42 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
proclus , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
"Theurgus@aol.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick , "rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" ,
Beth , Kerry Shirts ,
George Head , George Head ,
----------
From: Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@cris.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 11:45 PM
To: proclus; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds;
Theurgus@aol.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; Beth Quick; rpcman@hotmail.com;
onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; dcombe@rain.org; Beth; Kerry
Shirts; George Head; George Head
Subject: Key 16
___JSW___
Realize that what we SEE BEST in the Keys is what we ARE.
(Snip Swick's discourse on the Tarot)
Kerry:
I'm outclassed here. I don't belong here with all this brain power. I feel
humble (which goes against my nature - GRIN!). In other words, THANKS for
the discourse man, I can see I'm gonna fit right in. Hey, a
suggestion........you all sitting down for this? Whaddya all think of us
making a Mormon Tarot card deck??? Think about it, it could be a
multi-national best selling set. I betchta we could work something out. Man
that'd be a gas. The Hypocephalus could be the Wheel of Fortune card, etc.
I'm tellin ya we could become a HUGE hit...... Man, the star card we could
make from the Nauvoo temple star stone, (Also the sun stone), the strength
card we could do Joseph Smith out stick pulling those two Illinois
strongmen with one hand, the magician card could be Joseph Smith himself
holding the Gold plates, Urim and Thummim, etc., the fool card could be
Sidney Rigdon, or else Spaulding! etc., etc. We could have something
here........
Kerry A. "Mephisto" Shirts
Subject:
Heber and the Pope
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:17:29 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick , "rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" ,
Beth , Kerry Shirts ,
'proclus'
I know, I know, bear with me, this is too good to lose!
Mephisto a.k.a. Kerry
Hi Kerry, how's it goin?
How about I help with this section of his question?
How can Joseph Smith teach that angels in the pre-mortal world can
become men then become sons of God because the Bible teaches that
angels will never become sons of God (Heb 1:3-5) and that angels are
just ministering spirits (Heb 1:14) and their only role is to render
service to men who will inherit salvation (Heb 1:14). Angels already
made their choice before in the first estate (Jude 1:6) and the evil
ones are kept in bonds of darkness until the great day of judgment (Jude
1:6) and the good angels are servants to God that must obey every word
of God and speak the words of Christ (2 Ne 32:3) - they do no have a
choice to come down to earth and decided where to obey or
disobey God. Angels speak the words of Christ (2 Ne 32:3) (Heb 1:1-14;
2 Pet 2:4) God does not give flesh and blood to angels only to the
descendants of Abraham (Heb 2:9-16)
Let me know how we're going to do this. Talk to you soon.....
Here is a joke for you....
> > >>Heber and the Pope
> > >>
> > >>Many years ago, the Pope decided that all the Mormons had to
> > >>leave Rome. Naturally, there was a big uproar from the Mormon
> > >>community. So, the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious
debate
> > with a
> > >>member of the Mormon community. If the Mormon won, the Mormons
could
> stay.
> > >>
> > >>If the Pope won, the Mormons would leave. Realizing they had no
> choice,
> > >>the Mormons picked a young missionary from Idaho [probably
> > >>Pocatello] named Heber, to represent them.
> > >>
> > >>Not able to speak Italian very well, Heber asked for one addition
to
> > >>the debate - To make it more interesting, neither side could
> > >>talk. The Pope agreed.
> > >>
> > >>The day of the great debate came. Heber and the Pope sat opposite
> > >>each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and
> > >>showed three fingers. Heber looked back at him and raised one
finger.
> > >>The Pope waved his fingers in a circle around his head. Heber
pointed
> to
> > >>the ground where he sat.
> > >>The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of wine. Heber pulled
> > >>out an apple.
> > >>
> > >>The Pope stood up and said, I give up! This man is too
> > >>good! The Mormons can stay.
> > >>
> > >>Afterwards, the Cardinals, gathered around the Pope, asking
> > >>him to explain what had happened. The Pope said, First, I held up
> > >>three fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up
one
> > >>finger to remind me that there was still one God common to both our
> > >>religions.
> > >>
> > >>Then I waved my finger around me to show him that God was all
> > >>around us.
> > >>
> > >>He responded by pointing to the ground to show that God was
> > >>also right here with us.
> > >>
> > >>I pulled out the wine and wafer to show that
> > >>God absolves us from our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me
> > >>of the original sin. He had an answer for everything. What could I
> > >>do?
> > >>
> > >>Meanwhile the Mormon community and all the missionaries had
> > >>crowded around Heber. What happened? they asked.
> > >>
> > >>Well, said Heber, First he said to me that the
> > >>Mormons had three days to get out of here. I told him that not one
of
> us
> > was
> > >>leaving.
> > >>
> > >>He told me that his whole city would be cleared of Mormons. I let
> > >>him know we were staying right here.
> > >>
> > >>And then? asked a woman.
> > >>
> > >>I don't know, said Heber, He took out his lunch and I took out
> > >>mine.
Subject:
Re: Key 16
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:40:56 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Kerry Shirts , proclus ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
Beth Quick , rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org, Beth ,
George Head , George Head
DEFINATELY a statement. I like the idea, but it will be a lot of work to do
it right. This would be a great project to contribute to, and I can't
imagine that it would'nt be a GREAT collector's piece if executed well.
JSW
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Shirts
To: proclus Andy Mcguire
Kathleen McGuire R. Trent Reynolds
Theurgus@aol.com rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
Beth Quick
rpcman@hotmail.com onandagus@webtv.net
Neoptolmus@aol.com
dcombe@rain.org Beth Kerry Shirts
George Head George
Head 'Joe Steve Swick III'
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:09 PM
Subject: RE: Key 16
>
>
>----------
>From: Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@cris.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 11:45 PM
>To: proclus; Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire; R. Trent Reynolds;
>Theurgus@aol.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; Beth Quick; rpcman@hotmail.com;
>onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com; dcombe@rain.org; Beth; Kerry
>Shirts; George Head; George Head
>Subject: Key 16
>
>___JSW___
> Re a l i z e that what we SEE BEST in the Keys is what we ARE.
>
>(Snip Swick's discourse on the Tarot)
>
>Kerry:
>I'm outclassed here. I don't belong here with all this brain power. I feel
>humble (which goes against my nature - GRIN!). In other words, THANKS for
>the discourse man, I can see I'm gonna fit right in. Hey, a
>suggestion........you all sitting down for this? Whaddya all think of us
>making a Mormon Tarot card deck??? Think about it, it could be a
>multi-national best selling set. I betchta we could work something out. Man
>that'd be a gas. The Hypocephalus could be the Wheel of Fortune card, etc.
>I'm tellin ya we could become a HUGE hit...... Man, the star card we could
>make from the Nauvoo temple star stone, (Also the sun stone), the strength
>card we could do Joseph Smith out stick pulling those two Illinois
>strongmen with one hand, the magician card could be Joseph Smith himself
>holding the Gold plates, Urim and Thummim, etc., the fool card could be
>Sidney Rigdon, or else Spaulding! etc., etc. We could have something
>here........
>
>Kerry A. "Mephisto" Shirts
>
Subject:
Wild and Woolley
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:00:25 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
proclus , Andy Mcguire ,
Kathleen McGuire , "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Theurgus@aol.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, Beth Quick ,
rpcman@hotmail.com, onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com, dcombe@rain.org,
Beth , Kerry Shirts
Just curious how many of you might know about the following site:
http://www.summum.org/
A "local" Utah religion whose main principles are intoxication, meditation,
sexual ecstasy and mummification.
Enjoy it!
JSW
Subject:
TARO, ROTA, ORAT...
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:42:56 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
"McGuire, Andy" , proclus ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
rds , Beth Quick ,
rpcman , onandagus ,
dcombe , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , George Head ,
George Head ,
___JSW___
For Kerry's edification... no, I don't use Tarot for divination. I'm much
more interested in a Jungian approach to the subject; I believe that the
Keys are powerful symbols, encouraging deep a spiritual reflection that can
be very healthy. IMHO, "divination" is a cheap activity using a powerful
psychological tool.
___Andy McGuire___
Before each reading I told the "victim" that it was only for fun, don't
take it seriously, etc.. But at least 80% of the readings ended with the
querent telling me that the reading was "incredible" that I had hit things
"right on the head", etc. etc.
-----
I didn't say that the Keys weren't revealing. I just said that I don't
believe they are best used to tell fortunes.
___Andy McGuire___
One of the last readings of the day, the gal really rattled my cage by
saying "Well. I think I'll go through
with the divorce then." (Oooh. Ouch.)
-----
One of the things about the Tarot Keys is that they give shape to our
internal landscape, and can assist us in making choices and considering
options that we might not have thought of. They allow us to hear the Voice
of the Heirophant, and heighten our intuitive awareness:
Shut thine ears
To the confusion of the world which surroundeth thee.
Open thine inner hearing.
Aspire earnestly to me....
I am the revealer of all mysteries.
None other is the Teacher of any man...
I have brougth thee before me for instruction (Tokens, Vav: 7, 9).
___Andy McGuire___
And at the end of the day I felt physically drained, as if I had spent the
day in heavy physical labor. My experience leads me to disagree with calling
divination "cheap". I learned a lot from it.
-----
Again, the Tarot is a powerful tool, as your own experience confirms. I
insist that fortunetelling is a cheap use of that tool. It is like plowing
a field with a Thoroughbred; certainly the horse is up to the job, but it is
not what he is best suited for. (^_^)
___Andy McGuire___
As luck would have it, I am taking a Tarot class.
-----
Very good. I hope it suits your needs.
___Andy McGuire___
The first session was last Saturday, and goes for 6 weeks. I am the only
person who showed up for the class, but the teacher chose to go ahead and
teach it anyway, so I am getting personal attention. It has been
interesting. For those of you who use the tarot, I'll pass on my homework
assignment for this last week: Select a random card from the Major Arcana.
Then place it next to each of the Wands, one at a time. How does the
meaning of the card (the Wand) change under the influence of the other card?
Repeat this for each card in the Major Arcana (ar at least as many as you
have time for...).
-----
Interesting exercise. If you would like to know more about my own
meditations, I would be quite happy to share some of that here.
If you are just beginning the study of Tarot, there are several good
resources:
Paul Foster Case. _The Tarot: A Key to the Wisdom of the Ages_. Los Angeles:
Builders of the Adytum, 1980. ISBN 0-938002-08-2
Paul Case was one of the finest Tarot scholars that ever lived, and the
school of instruction he established is almost universally respected. This
text is fully illustrated with color pictures of an ESOTERIC version of the
popular Rider-Waite deck. The explanations are superb, and the book gives
great hints at the deeper significance of the Major Arcana.
Daphna Moore. _The Rabbi's Tarot: The Spiritual Secrets of the Tarot_. St.
Paul: Llewellyn, 1992. ISBN 0-87542-572-0
Like Case's book, this text focuses on the meaning of the Major Arcana,
using the Rider-Waite deck. The book appears to be Moore's own occult
notebook on the subject; it is a very good starting-place. Some of her
interpretations are a little wide of the mark for me, but I still can
recommend it.
Anonymous. _Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism_.
Rockport, MA: Element, 1993.
ISBN 1-85230-222-4
There is nothing else like this book. I highly recommend it, but it is not a
book for beginners. The placement of the Keys is different than in the Waite
and related traditions (different placement of the Fool, Strength, Justice).
It re-establishes Tarot as a part of the Christian contemplative tradition,
and is deserving of close attention.
Marcia Masino. _Easy Tarot Guide_. San Diego: ACS Publications, 1995. ISBN
0-917086-59-7
This is a fine workbook that covers both the Major and Minor Arcana. It is
printed on glossy paper, with full color pictures of each of the 78 Keys. It
focuses on divination in 15 lessons with progress checks. Even with my own
biases, I must admit that this is a fine introductory volume.
Stuart R. Kaplan. _The Encyclopedia of Tarot_. 3 Vols. Stamford, CT: U.S.
Game Systems, Inc.
This is a fabulous reference series, with (unfortunately) B&W reproductions
of literally dozens of different Tarot sets. I would HIGHLY recommend this
to Kerry if he is serious about working on a deck. Also contains color
plates. 25.00 per volume.
As for decks I like:
** Of course the traditional RIDER-WAITE deck. If you get this (and you
really should), you might wish to read Waite's own commentary, in _The
Pictorial Key to the Tarot_, published by Sam Weiser (ISBN 0-87728-218-8).
** The BOTA deck, designed by Pamela Coleman and Paul Case. This is the
ESOTERIC version of the Rider-Waite deck. These Keys come uncolored; the
expectation is that the student will color his/her own set. I find the
symbolism of this set to match my personality best. In addition to Case's
book listed above, there is a short volume of meditations called The Book of
Tokens which is rather interesting.
** Of course, one of the most vibrant modern decks is Crowley's THOTH Tarot,
which is quite a piece of art. Recommended for those who are not
faint-of-heart.
** Another fine modern deck I recommend is Rosemary Guiley and Robert
Place's ALCHEMICAL TAROT. The art reminds one of renaissance-period
alchemical works. While the composition of the Keys is reminiscent of
Rider-Waite, it is by no means slavish.
Hope this is interesting.
Regards,
JSW
"If you read the Torah, and you see the radiance of the letters, read them
with love and fervor even if you don't understand their meaning... God
doesn't mind if you don't pronounce them correctly. It is the sam as a
toddler asking his father for something. He may mumble and stammer, but his
father takes delight in it anyway. And so it is with people. If you say the
words of the Torah with love, then God loves you, even if you mispronounce
them." -- The Baal Shem Tov
Subject:
Hey George!
Date:
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:47:38 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
"McGuire, Andy" , proclus ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
rds , Beth Quick ,
rpcman , onandagus ,
dcombe , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , George Head ,
George Head ,
Shabbat Shalom:
Recently, Chaver George has been listening to Rabbi Cooper's tape set, The
Mystical Kabbalah. I wondered if he might wish to share with us a morsel or
two from that series.
L'Hitraot
JSW
Subject:
RE: TARO, ROTA, ORAT...
Date:
Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:15:10 -0700
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
"McGuire, Andy" , proclus ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
rds , Beth Quick ,
rpcman , onandagus ,
dcombe , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , George Head ,
George Head ,
Anonymous. _Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian
Hermeticism_.
Rockport, MA: Element, 1993.
ISBN 1-85230-222-4
There is nothing else like this book. I highly recommend it, but it is not
a
book for beginners. The placement of the Keys is different than in the
Waite
and related traditions (different placement of the Fool, Strength,
Justice).
It re-establishes Tarot as a part of the Christian contemplative tradition,
and is deserving of close attention.
Kerry:
No kidding.....I got my copy for a buck about a year ago, and haven't made
the time to look into it yet. Now I sure will however. Thanks for the
recommendation.
Stuart R. Kaplan. _The Encyclopedia of Tarot_. 3 Vols. Stamford, CT: U.S.
Game Systems, Inc.
This is a fabulous reference series, with (unfortunately) B&W reproductions
of literally dozens of different Tarot sets. I would HIGHLY recommend this
to Kerry if he is serious about working on a deck. Also contains color
plates. 25.00 per volume.
Kerry:
GOTTA HAVE IT!!!! How do I get this one?
Hope this is interesting.
Kerry:
VERY. Thank you very much. Oh hey, I have been through Waite's "Rider Deck"
book on the Tarot. A nice intro. What do you think about Joseph Campbell,
Richard Roberts, "Tarot Revelations"? I was fascinated with the ideas and
correlations to the symbolisms. I also have Papus' "The Tarot of the
Bohemians," which I also bought for a mere dime at a used book store (I say
it is ASTONISHING what folks let go of). And, and, Barbara Walker wrote a
book "The Secrets of the Tarot:Origins, History and Symbolism," which I
found wildly fascinating because of her determined feminist outlook in it.
Ever read it? That would be a lulu to discuss here I think.
Regards,
JSW
Kerry A. Shirts
P.S. Is it at all true that there really are connections with Kabbalah and
Tarot? That also would be a lulu of a discussion around here.
Subject:
Sufi and Sabbateanism Articles: Part 2
Date:
Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:34:31 -0500 (EST)
From:
Theurgus@aol.com
To:
jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, kathleen@enol.com,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, ariel144@hotmail.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, dcombe@rain.org, timquick@cwnet.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
headgeorge@hotmail.com, headgeor@esuvm.emporia.edu
[NOTE: For those Sufi chaverim who recently joined us, I am reposting
Prof. Elqayam's ground-breaking series of online articles about Jewish
(Sabbatian) Mysticism and Islamic Sufi. Below is the second in the
series, which brings us up to date. The on-list discussions that
followed these articles are in the Donmeh archives. -- Yakov Leib]
Dear Chaverim,
Bismi 'llahi 'l-Rahmani l'Rahimi!
II. Dhikr and Sama`-- Recollection of Allah's Name
===================================
Dhikr (Lit. -- mentioning, remembering, thinking of-, in Arabic), is a
meditative remembrance, in which certain key Qur`anic phrases or divine
epithets are continually invoked, aloud or silently. Also called Sama`
-- lit. hearing -- a term I would elaborate upon some other time.
The Dhikr is usually celebrated on Fridays, hollidays, and on birthdays
and memorial days of prophets and saints. The participants repeat
Allah's name in various forms, repeat Holy Qur'an verses and religious
poetry, and try to achieve, with the help of music and dances,
uninterrupted communion with God and religious ecstasy
Dhikr has many sources in the Holy Qur'an, and in most verses, what was
meant by the word dhikr is tasba , glorifying; takbar, exalting; ta mad,
praising; and praising and praying upon the Prophet (s). Allah said in
Surat al-Baqara, 152: "Remember Me and I will remember you." [2:152] He
said in Surat ali `Imran, 41, "...and remember your Lord much and
glorify Him in the evening and in the early morning." And again, 191,
"Those who remember Allah while standing, sitting, and lying on their
sides..." [3:41, 191] He said in Surat al-Ra`d, 28, "Those who believe,
and whose hearts find their rest in the remembrance of Allah--for,
verily, in the remembrance of Allah hearts do find their rest." [13:28]
And He said in Surat al-A zab, 35, "...and men who rememberAllah much
and women who remember Him..." And again, 41,42, "O you who believe!
Remember Allah with much remembrance; and glorify Him morning and
evening." [33: 35, 41-42]
Here are some examples of typical Dhikr phrases. For instance, the
following verse from Surat al-Ikhlas or Tawhid: "Say: 'God is One, the
Eternal God. He begot onoe, nor was He begotten. None is equal to Him."
[112]. Another typical such "mantra" is:
la---ilaha--illa--llah
no--God--but--God
Sama` (lit. "hearing, audition", in Arabic), is the inducing of the
ecstatic state during the Dhikr by means of music, singing, and dancing.
The connection of music and ecstasy is as old as the seas, and can be
found in many cultural traditions. The maenads, for instance, induced
their state of holy madness not only by intoxic at in g su bstances, but
also by music: Euripides refers to the oboe as a major instriment in
their revels. However, I feel that in this respect Sufism derives mainly
from the Jewish tradition. Sources for the relation between music and
prophetic ecstasy can be found in the Holy Bible, e.g., Samuel I,
10:5-6: "Thou shalt meet a band of prophets coming down from the high
place with a lute, and a timbrel, and a pipe, and a lyre, before them;
and they shall prophesy. And the spirit of the Lord will come upon thee,
and thou shalt prphesy with them, and thou shalt be turned into another
man." Kings II 3:15: "And it came to pass, when the minstrel played,
that the hand of the Lord came upon him." [A detailed description of
Sama` rites in Islamic Sufism can be found at: E.W. Lane, "Manners and
Customs of the Modern Egyptians" (1833-1835).]
This is the background on which we should interpret Sabbatai Sevi's
musical personality, as well as his habit of uttering the Ineffable
Name, and his habits of singing and dancing. We have no explicite
evidence to the effect that Sabbatai Sevi participated in any Dhikr
rites *prior* to his conversion to Islam. However, we have new evidence
that, after his conversion, Sabbatai Sevi used to participate in the
Dhikr ritual celebrated in the Beqtashi Tekke, located on the Hizirlik,
a hill overlooking Adrianopolis. This Tekke was closed by the
authorities between 1641-1642, on the allegation it harboured "doubtful
elements". The Sultan Mehmet the IVth reopened it later as a zawiya.
To sum up, Sabbatai Sevi was submerged in Dhikr ceremonies, and this is
the key to understanding some of his habits, such as singing, dancing,
and pronouncing the Ineffable name. After his conversion he even took
active part in the Bektashi Dhikr rites in the Tekke near Adrianopolis.
To be continued...
Ibrahim al-Qa'im
(Avi Elqayam)
----- End Included Message -----
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
Return-Path:
Received: from rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) by
air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v56.22) with SMTP; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:59:04 -0500
Received: from mailhost.dalsemi.com (vector.DALSEMI.COM [198.3.123.1])
by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
with ESMTP id JAA20149 for
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:59:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from cruise.dalsemi.com (cruise.dalsemi.com [180.0.35.25]) by
mailhost.dalsemi.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA03750 for
Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:58:30 -0600 (CST)
Received: by cruise.dalsemi.com (4.1/SMI-4.1)
id AA13904; Fri, 15 Jan 99 08:57:20 CST
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 08:57:20 CST
From: kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
Message-Id: ?.AA13904@cruise.dalsemi.com>
To: Theurgus@aol.com
Subject: [DONMEH] Sufi and Sabbateanism Articles: Part 2
Subject:
Re: TARO, ROTA, ORAT...
Date:
Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:03:40 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Kerry Shirts ,
"McGuire, Andy" , proclus ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
rds , Beth Quick ,
rpcman , onandagus ,
dcombe , Beth ,
George Head , George Head ,
___JSW___
Stuart R. Kaplan. _The Encyclopedia of Tarot_. 3 Vols. Stamford, CT: U.S.
Game Systems, Inc.
This is a fabulous reference series, with (unfortunately) B&W reproductions
of literally dozens of different Tarot sets. I would HIGHLY recommend this
to Kerry if he is serious about working on a deck. Also contains color
plates. 25.00 per volume.
___KERRY___
GOTTA HAVE IT!!!! How do I get this one?
-----
I picked this up locally, but I imagine that you can order it directly from
the publisher (US Games Systems). ISBNs are as follows: VOL 1 #
0-913886-11-3; VOL 2 # 0-913886-36-9; VOL 3 # 0-88079-122-5
And my comment about "literally dozens of decks" is an understatement. The
encyclopedia contains photos of 3200 cards from over 250 different Tarot
decks.
BTW, Kapan is the owner of US Games Systems. and they have recently
published a replica of the famous 15th-centur y Visconti-Sforza tarocchi
deck. Another deck which should be of some interest to you is the Salvador
Dali deck, which while not symbolically "correct," is nevertheless very
unusual, and quite enjoyable to look at.
___KERRY___
I have been through Waite's "Rider Deck" book on the Tarot. A nice intro.
-----
Yes, although Waite is absolutely paranoid about telling you too much, and
he completely glosses over the meaning of his own deck. An important aspect
of Tarot are its correspondences, and this is perhaps better grasped from a
book like Daphne Moore's Rabbi's Tarot, which I mentioned earlier.
___KERRY___
What do you think about Joseph Campbell, Richard Roberts, "Tarot
Revelations"? I was fascinated with the ideas and correlations to the
symbolisms.
-----
I've not read this. It's now on my list! I rather think that Campbell
would be an excellent interpreter of Tarot symbolism. Again,
"correspondences" and "correlations" is a big part of Tarot understanding.
___KERRY___
I also have Papus' "The Tarot of the Bohemians," which I also bought for a
mere dime at a used book store (I say it is ASTONISHING what folks let go
of).
-----
Yes, everyone should read Papus. I wish I had read him for a dime.
___KERRY___
And, and, Barbara Walker wrote a book "The Secrets of the Tarot:Origins,
History and Symbolism," which I
found wildly fascinating because of her determined feminist outlook in it.
Ever read it? That would be a lulu to discuss here I think.
-----
I've not read this one, either. A feminist reading of Tarot would be quite
good to hear. Let me track this down. Once I've read it, we can perhaps
discuss it?
___KERRY___
P.S. Is it at all true that there really are connections with Kabbalah and
Tarot? That also would be a lulu of a discussion around here.
-----
Not only is it TRUE, IMHO it is CENTRAL to any advanced understanding of the
Tarot. For more information of the relationship between the Tarot and the
Tree of Life, I STRONGLY recommend Paul Case's book, as I already mentioned,
as well as Robert Wang's book, The Kabbalistic Tarot. If you are interested
in seeing how Tarot relates to the pathwork of the Rosicrucian grades
(directly related to the Tree of Life), then Case also published another
fine work entitled "The True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order," which
discusses the doctrines of each grade in light of the Tarot. The back cover
contains a very good statement of "why you should buy":
"Develops a profound analysis of both pre- and post-Masonic Rosicrucians and
sheds some wonderful light on Freemasonry to boot! [Case] defines
Rosicrucianism very simply as Christian Hermeticism allied with Kabbalah.
His elucidation from this simple clear viewpoint is one of the clearest and
most helpful yet produced for those acutally on the path" (Gnosis
Magazine). ISBN 0-87728-709-0
Case's book on Tarot (mentioned in my previous mail) also makes an important
contribution in understanding the Tarot in light of the Cube of Space, a
topic that literally no previous work explicated in any detail. Following
Case's hints, Kevin Townley wrote an obscure but fascinating study entitled
"The Cube of Space: Container of Creation," ISBN 0-9635211-8-7. The first
chapter alone is worth the price of the text -- touching on the Tree of
Life, the Masonic Cube, the Tarot, the Divine Name, the Magen David, the New
Jerusalem, the Holy of Holies, the relationship between the Mother Letters
of the aleph-beis and the Cube as discussed in the Sefer Yetzirah, the
Zodiac's relationship to the Cube, and so forth. A solid bit of work, but
very obscure/occult to the beginning student, who may laugh at something
that looks like a glorified Rubik's cube.
Cheers!
JSW
Subject:
[Fwd: [DONMEH] Kabbalah's Influence on Mormonism]
Date:
Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:31:11 -0500
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , "Theurgus@aol.com" ,
"jswick@cris.com" , "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
Beth Quick , "proclus@mac.com" ,
"rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
"Neoptolmus@aol.com" , "dcombe@rain.org" ,
Beth , Kerry Shirts
Does anyone know what this is about?
proclus
in the shadow of Belmont
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s: a C++ UUI++$ P L E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++ V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Subject:
[DONMEH] Kabbalah's Influence on Mormonism
Date:
Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:59:43 -0700 (MST)
From:
Eylon.Israeli@salmon.esosoft.net
To:
Yakov Leib HaKohain
YAKOV LEIB WROTE:
> In any case, as I recall, our Chaver Prof. Harris Lenowitz (who teaches
> at the University of Utah, so he should know) pretty much trashed one
> book or another on the Kabbalah-connection in Mormonism during our last
> discussion of this topic, but I can't remember which book it was.
CHAVER EYLON REPLIES:
Dear chaver Yakov,
any way to access the OLD donmeh archive, before the move to this
listserv?
Thanks,
Eylon.
YAKOV LEIB REPLIES:
Dear chaver Eylon,
Sorry, there isn't. But Prof. Lenowitz will be back on line soon and you
can ask him about it then.
b'shalom,
yankif
Subject:
Hey George!
Date:
Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:50:53 -0800
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Andy.McGuire@psc.bellhowell.com, Michael Love ,
Andy Mcguire , Kathleen McGuire ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus ,
Randall Shortridge , Beth Quick ,
rpc man , onandagus ,
Dave , Beth ,
Kerry Shirts , George Head