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ject: 
         Nasrudin
   Date: 
         Fri, 07 May 1999 11:03:01 -0500 (CDT)
   From: 
         kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
         proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
         ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
         comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
         shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
         timquick@cwnet.com




Nasrudin decided to have a party. What little money he had was
spent on
special annoucements, grandiose invitations and an ostentatious
location.
When the guests arrived, they found no food, no wine, no
entertainment.
They clamoured around Nasrudin demanding an explanation.
"You have to understand . . ." stammered Nasrudin, "that I am
new to this
'party giving'. Next time I shall send out out no invitations
and hold the
party in my barn. Think of this as a dress rehearsal but next
time . . .
next time will be the Real Thing . . ."






         My FAIR Conference Paper
   Date: 
         Sun, 09 May 1999 01:14:46 -0600
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         Kathleen McGuire ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         ArtdeHoyos ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         Beth any ,
         rpc man ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
         Dave ,
         "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
         Theurgus ,
         Beth ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         'proclus' 



Anyone wanna critique me a little here?
My conference is June 17-19 in 
California, and since I am among friends
here, here is my paper I will be 
presenting......

Kerry A. "That's why I have been so
dadgum scarce this last month" Shirts

 



    Eternal Family double spaced.doc

                                     Name: 
                                           Eternal Family
                                           double spaced.doc
                                     Type: 
                                           Microsoft Word
                                           Document
                                           (application/msword)
                                 Encoding: 
                                           base64




      Subject: 
              Re: geeky stuff
         Date: 
              Wed, 12 May 1999 10:32:42 -0400
        From: 
              Randall Shortridge 
 Organization: 
              State University of New York
          To: 
              proclus 
          CC: 
              Andy Mcguire ,
              Kathleen McGuire ,
              "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
              Joe Steve Swick III ,
              ArtdeHoyos ,
              Beth any ,
              rpc man ,
              "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
              "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
              Dave ,
              "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
              Ken Shaw ,
              Beth ,
              Kerry Shirts ,
              "Michael J. Pierce" ,
              Enoch Shemna 
   References: 
              1



Proclus.  Wow. Interesting survey.  Maybe
we ought to play with it
ourselves first?  Personally, I would
check six of the 10 choices.  None
by itself says what I think.  Of course,
that is just a mutant
speaking.  For grins, I checked my
choices below.

Randall

proclus wrote:
> 
> Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek
Indulgence banner on the homepage.
> If anyone has an objection to this,
just let me know.
> 
> I feel that the whole of
proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a
molt
> soon.  The web is changing, and so are
we.  I was thinking of adding
> some features to the webpage to try and
increase return traffic, a poll
> for example.
> 
> How about this.
> 
> To me, Mormonism is;
> [ ] The Only True Chrurch
> [ ] the only true and living church
> [X] the gospel, not the Church
> [X] a true church
> [X] strange
> [X] just another religion
> [ ] irrelevant
> [X] misguided
> [X] apostate
> [ ] totally evil
> 
> Users would be able to see the
immediate results of the poll.  Are there
> any ideas about this?  Any ideas for
the this poll, or another poll?  On
> the website the poll would be
anonymous, but maybe we should play with
> it among ourselves first.
> 
> The logical extension from the poll is
customization and configurable
> boxes, a la Slashdot.com.  There an
enormous amount of Mormon related
> stuff going on on the web, but no one
is adequately serving it.  We need
> a Radical Mormon gateway.  How far do
we want to go down this road?
> 
> I'm getting ready to move the site off
of GeoCities, which is a truly
> maddening website.  Enoch, is there
still space for us on your server?
> 
> Regards,
> proclus
> 
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! 
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
> V--
> PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R
tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


    Subject: 
           Re: geeky stuff
      Date: 
           Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:29 -0400
      From: 
           proclus 
        To: 
           Andy Mcguire ,
           ArtdeHoyos ,
           Beth ,
           Beth any ,
           Dave ,
           Joe Steve Swick III ,
           Kathleen McGuire ,
           Kerry Shirts ,
           "Michael J. Pierce" ,
           "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
           "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
           proclus ,
           "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
           Randall Shortridge ,
           "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           rpc man ,
           Ken Shaw ,
           Enoch Shemna 
 References: 
           1 , 2



Randall Shortridge wrote:
> 
> Proclus.  Wow. Interesting survey.
Maybe we ought to play with it
> ourselves first?  Personally, I would
check six of the 10 choices.  None
> by itself says what I think.  Of
course, that is just a mutant
> speaking.  For grins, I checked my
choices below.

Hehe, I think that you are right that
mutants may be uncomfortable with
XOR choices ;-}.  It would be interesting
if we could use a "check all
that apply" approach.  I have included my
responses in either case
below.

XOR option:
To me, Mormonism is;
[ ] The Only True Chrurch
[x] the only true and living church
[ ] the gospel, not the Church
[ ] a true church
[ ] strange
[ ] just another religion
[ ] irrelevant
[ ] misguided
[ ] apostate
[ ] totally evil


not XOR option:
To me, Mormonism is;
[ ] The Only True Chrurch
[x] the only true and living church
[x] the gospel, not the Church
[ ] a true church
[ ] strange
[ ] just another religion
[ ] irrelevant
[ ] misguided
[x] apostate
[ ] totally evil

I guess it depends on what you mean by
"is". =}  That is why I added "To
me".  It makes it more personal, and it
illustrates the subjective
quality of this question.  One wonders
about what Mormonism might be to
someone else, and what they mean by "is".
Personally, I favor the XOR
poll on this account.

Regards,
proclus

> Randall
> 
> proclus wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek
Indulgence banner on the homepage.
> > If anyone has an objection to this,
just let me know.
> >
> > I feel that the whole of
proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a
molt
> > soon.  The web is changing, and so
are we.  I was thinking of adding
> > some features to the webpage to try
and increase return traffic, a poll
> > for example.
> >
> > How about this.
> >
> > To me, Mormonism is;
> > [ ] The Only True Chrurch
> > [ ] the only true and living church
> > [X] the gospel, not the Church
> > [X] a true church
> > [X] strange
> > [X] just another religion
> > [ ] irrelevant
> > [X] misguided
> > [X] apostate
> > [ ] totally evil
> >
> > Users would be able to see the
immediate results of the poll.  Are there
> > any ideas about this?  Any ideas for
the this poll, or another poll?  On
> > the website the poll would be
anonymous, but maybe we should play with
> > it among ourselves first.
> >
> > The logical extension from the poll
is customization and configurable
> > boxes, a la Slashdot.com.  There an
enormous amount of Mormon related
> > stuff going on on the web, but no one
is adequately serving it.  We need
> > a Radical Mormon gateway.  How far do
we want to go down this road?
> >
> > I'm getting ready to move the site
off of GeoCities, which is a truly
> > maddening website.  Enoch, is there
still space for us on your server?
> >
> > Regards,
> > proclus
> >
> > --
> > Visit proclus' realm! 
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > Version: 3.1
> > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
> > V--
> > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R
tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> > r+++ y++++
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@
b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


 Subject: 
         [Fwd: geeky stuff]
   Date: 
         Wed, 12 May 1999 19:25:38 -0400
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         proclus 



 Subject: 
         geeky stuff
   Date: 
         Tue, 11 May 1999 18:47:29 -0400
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         Kathleen McGuire ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         ArtdeHoyos ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         Beth any ,
         proclus ,
         rpc man ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
         Dave ,
         "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
         Ken Shaw ,
         Beth ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         Enoch Shemna 



Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek
Indulgence banner on the homepage. 
If anyone has an objection to this, just
let me know.

I feel that the whole of
proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a
molt
soon.  The web is changing, and so are
we.  I was thinking of adding
some features to the webpage to try and
increase return traffic, a poll
for example.

How about this.

To me, Mormonism is;
[ ] The Only True Chrurch
[ ] the only true and living church
[ ] the gospel, not the Church
[ ] a true church
[ ] strange
[ ] just another religion
[ ] irrelevant
[ ] misguided
[ ] apostate
[ ] totally evil

Users would be able to see the immediate
results of the poll.  Are there
any ideas about this?  Any ideas for the
this poll, or another poll?  On
the website the poll would be anonymous,
but maybe we should play with
it among ourselves first.

The logical extension from the poll is
customization and configurable
boxes, a la Slashdot.com.  There an
enormous amount of Mormon related
stuff going on on the web, but no one is
adequately serving it.  We need
a Radical Mormon gateway.  How far do we
want to go down this road?

I'm getting ready to move the site off of
GeoCities, which is a truly
maddening website.  Enoch, is there still
space for us on your server?

Regards,
proclus


-- 
Visit proclus' realm! 
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@
b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++ 
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



 Subject: 
         RE: geeky stuff
   Date: 
         Wed, 12 May 1999 12:50:09 -0600
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         Kathleen McGuire ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         ArtdeHoyos ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         Beth any ,
         rpc man ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
         Dave ,
         "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
         Ken Shaw ,
         Beth ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         Enoch Shemna ,
         'proclus' 




----------
From:   proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, May 11, 1999 4:47 PM
To:     Andy Mcguire; Kathleen McGuire;
R. Trent Reynolds; Joe Steve Swick 
III; ArtdeHoyos; Randall Shortridge; Beth
any; proclus; rpc man; 
onandagus@webtv.net; Neoptolmus@aol.com;
Dave; Robert R. Black; Ken Shaw; 
Beth; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce;
Enoch Shemna
Subject:        geeky stuff

Perhaps some of you noticed the Geek
Indulgence banner on the homepage.
If anyone has an objection to this, just
let me know.

I feel that the whole of
proclus-realm.com will be undergoing a
molt
soon.  The web is changing, and so are
we.  I was thinking of adding
some features to the webpage to try and
increase return traffic, a poll
for example.

How about this.

Kerry's answers (with explanations)

To me, Mormonism is;
[ x] The Only True Chrurch
[ x] the only true and living church
[ x] the gospel, not the Church
[ x] a true church
[ x] strange
[ x] just another religion
[ x] irrelevant
[ x] misguided
[ x] apostate
[ x] totally evil

Kerry:
I'm honestly not trying to be a smart
alec, but since the Gospel 
encompasses everything, though not all at
once in any given situation 
throughout history, I would say it is all
of the above. I have certainly 
found each and every one of these items
within the church so far as that 
goes, since we are all individually an
aspect of the Gospel. Being a member 
of God's family it behooves us all to
realize the all-encompassing aspects 
of total inclusion of life and ea rthly
experience, as we      ll as meaning, 
getting us ready for our next stage of
progression (molting as it were), 
into the heavenly realms. Does any of
this make sense?

Kerry A. Shirts


 Subject: 
         RE: geeky stuff
   Date: 
         Thu, 13 May 1999 00:59:11 -0400
   From: 
         Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     To: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     CC: 
         Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         ArtdeHoyos ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Kathleen McGuire ,
         Andy Mcguire ,
         Dave ,
         "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         rpc man ,
         Beth any ,
         'proclus' ,
         Enoch Shemna ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         Beth ,
         Ken Shaw 



To me, Mormonism is;
[   ] The Only True Chrurch
[   ] the only true and living church
[   ] the gospel, not the Church
[ x] a true church
[   ] strange
[   ] just another religion
[   ] irrelevant
[   ] misguided
[ x] apostate
[   ] totally evil<

Robert.


 Subject: 
         RE: geeky stuff
   Date: 
         Wed, 12 May 1999 23:35:22 -0600
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         Kerry Shirts ,
         'Robert R Black' ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     CC: 
         Randall Shortridge ,
         ArtdeHoyos ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Kathleen McGuire ,
         Andy Mcguire ,
         Dave ,
         "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         rpc man ,
         Beth any ,
         'proclus' ,
         Enoch Shemna ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         Beth ,
         Ken Shaw 




----------
From:   Robert R
Black[SMTP:74277.3365@compuserve.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, May 12, 1999 10:59 PM
To:     Kerry Shirts
Cc:     Robert R Black; Randall
Shortridge; ArtdeHoyos; Joe Steve Swick
III; 
R. Trent Reynolds; Kathleen McGuire; Andy
Mcguire; Dave; 
Neoptolmus@aol.com; onandagus@webtv.net;
rpc man; Beth any; 'proclus'; 
Enoch Shemna; Michael J. Pierce; Beth;
Ken Shaw
Subject:        RE: geeky stuff


To me, Mormonism is;
[   ] The Only True Chrurch
[   ] the only true and living church
[   ] the gospel, not the Church
[ x] a true church
[   ] strange
[   ] just another religion
[   ] irrelevant
[   ] misguided
[ x] apostate
[   ] totally evil<

Robert.

Kerry:
So what and where is the Gospel then?

Kerry



    Subject: 
           Re: geeky stuff
      Date: 
           Wed, 12 May 1999 23:40:01 -0700
      From: 
           Joe Steve Swick III 
        To: 
           Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           Kerry Shirts 
        CC: 
           Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           Randall Shortridge ,
           ArtdeHoyos ,
           "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
           Kathleen McGuire ,
           Andy Mcguire ,
           Dave ,
           Neoptolmus@aol.com,
           onandagus@webtv.net,
           rpc man ,
           Beth any ,
           'proclus' ,
           Enoch Shemna ,
           "Michael J. Pierce" ,
           Beth ,
           Ken Shaw 
 References: 
           1



 To me, Mormonism is;
 [   ] The Only True Chrurch
 [   ] the only true and living church
 [x ] the gospel, not the Church
 [   ] a true church
 [   ] strange
 [   ] just another religion
 [   ] irrelevant
 [   ] misguided
 [   ] apostate
 [   ] totally evil
 

JSW



    Subject: 
           Re: geeky stuff
      Date: 
           Thu, 13 May 1999 07:59:25 -0400
      From: 
           Enoch Shemna 
        To: 
           Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           Kerry Shirts 
        CC: 
           Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           Randall Shortridge ,
           ArtdeHoyos ,
           Joe Steve Swick III ,
           "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
           Kathleen McGuire ,
           Andy Mcguire ,
           Dave ,
           Neoptolmus@aol.com,
           onandagus@webtv.net,
           rpc man ,
           Beth any ,
           'proclus' ,
           "Michael J. Pierce" ,
           Beth ,
           Ken Shaw 
 References: 
           1



 
 To me, Mormonism is;
 [   ] The Only True Chrurch
 [   ] the only true and living church
 [ x ] the gospel, not the Church
 [ x] a true church
 [   ] strange
 [   ] just another religion
 [   ] irrelevant
 [ x] misguided
 [ x] apostate
 [   ] totally evil
 
Enoch



    Subject: 
           Re: geeky stuff
      Date: 
           Thu, 13 May 1999 09:02:22 -0400
      From: 
           proclus 
        To: 
           Andy Mcguire ,
           ArtdeHoyos ,
           Beth ,
           Beth any ,
           Dave ,
           Joe Steve Swick III ,
           Kathleen McGuire ,
           Kerry Shirts ,
           "Michael J. Pierce" ,
           "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
           proclus ,
           "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
           Randall Shortridge ,
           "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           rpc man ,
           Ken Shaw ,
           Enoch Shemna 
 References: 
           1 , 2



Here are the overall results, so far.


  To me, Mormonism is;
  [x] The Only True Chrurch
  [xx] the only true and living church
  [xxxxx] the gospel, not the Church
  [xxxx] a true church
  [xx] strange
  [xx] just another religion
  [x] irrelevant
  [xxx] misguided
  [xxxxx] apostate
  [x] totally evil
 
If you want to vote, you still have time
=}.

Here are the results for people choosing
XOR


To me, Mormonism is;
[ ] The Only True Chrurch
[x] the only true and living church
[x] the gospel, not the Church
[ ] a true church
[ ] strange
[ ] just another religion
[ ] irrelevant
[ ] misguided
[ ] apostate
[ ] totally evil


... And the not XOR results


To me, Mormonism is;
[x] The Only True Chrurch
[xx] the only true and living church
[xxxx] the gospel, not the Church
[xxxx] a true church
[xx] strange
[xx] just another religion
[x] irrelevant
[xxx] misguided
[xxxxx] apostate
[x] totally evil


I don't know how significant this is, but
it is pretty fun.  

Regards,
proclus 


-- 
Visit proclus realm!  
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@
b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------





Subject: 
            Re: geeky stuff
        Date: 
            Thu, 13 May 1999 11:44:20 -0400
       From: 
            Randall Shortridge 
 Organization: 
            State University of New York
         To: 
            proclus 
         CC: 
            Andy Mcguire ,
            ArtdeHoyos ,
            Beth ,
            Beth any ,
            Dave ,
            Joe Steve Swick III ,
            Kathleen McGuire ,
            Kerry Shirts ,
            "Michael J. Pierce" ,
            "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
            "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
            "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
            rpc man ,
            Ken Shaw ,
            Enoch Shemna 
   References: 
            1 , 2 , 3




proclus wrote:
 
> ... And the not XOR results
> 
> To me, Mormonism is;
> [x] The Only True Chrurch
> [xx] the only true and living church
> [xxxx] the gospel, not the Church
> [xxxx] a true church
> [xx] strange
> [xx] just another religion
> [x] irrelevant
> [xxx] misguided
> [xxxxx] apostate
> [x] totally evil
> 
> I don't know how significant this is, but it is pretty fun.
> 
> Regards,
> proclus
> 
>

I agree that it is rather fun and interesting.  Why don't we come up
with another survey or two on related topics?  Maybe how one feels about
the brethern whether they receive (so-called) modern revelation?  Or
maybe, about polygomy, Adam-God, Bruce McKonkie and Mormon Doctrine,
Brigham Young, Ezra Taft Benson and Constitutionalism, or Antimormonism?

There could be a fairly interesting website set up to compile and report
these surveys.  

Randall





Subject: 
        Re: geeky stuff
   Date: 
        Thu, 13 May 1999 11:43:41 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, proclus@mac.com, tudent007@msn.com
    CC: 
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
        74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org




I consider myself as;
[ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
[ ] LDS
[ ] a mormon
[x] a jack-mormon
[ ] a non-mormon
[x] something else
[x] a wierdo
[ ] this survey sucks




Subject: 
        Re: geeky stuff
   Date: 
        Thu, 13 May 1999 12:42:02 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, proclus@mac.com
    CC: 
        rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, tudent007@msn.com,
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
        74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
        enoch144@eagle-net.org




Revised Self-Classification


 I consider myself as;
 [ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 [ ] LDS
 [ ] a mormon
 [x] a radical mormon
 [ ] a fundamentalist mormon
 [ ] a jack-mormon
 [ ] a non-mormon
 [x] something else
 [x] a wierdo
 [ ] this survey sucks




Subject: 
            Re: geeky stuff
        Date: 
            Thu, 13 May 1999 15:02:50 -0400
       From: 
            Randall Shortridge 
 Organization: 
            State University of New York
         To: 
            Ken Shaw 
         CC: 
            proclus@mac.com, tudent007@msn.com,
            MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
            timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
            comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
            shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
            onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
            74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
            enoch144@eagle-net.org
   References: 
            1




> I consider myself as;
> [ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
> [ ] LDS
> [ ] a mormon
> [ ] a jack-mormon
> [x] a non-mormon
> [x] something else
> [x] a wierdo
> [ ] this survey sucks

[x] a former mormon
[ ] a future mormon
[ ] a reformed mormon
[?] a mormon sympathizer
[ ] a fundamentalist mormon
[ ] a nazi-mormon
[ ] a sheep
[ ] always in trouble with mormons
[ ] would like to kill all mormons




I believe that polygomy:

[ ] is required for salvation
[ ] will bring damnation
[ ] is totally irrelevant
[ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind
[ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind
[ ] is a dream of mine 
[ ] is only for about 5% of us
[ ] but, not for the rest of you
[ ] is unfair to women
[ ] is unfair to men
[ ] is lust in action
[ ] places men in bondage
[ ] places women in bondage
[ ] is good to conserve resources
[ ] should be restored in the LDS church
[ ] should never be spoken about
[ ] what's polygomy?




> 
> 
> > I believe that polygomy:
> > 
> > [x] is required for salvation
> > [ ] will bring damnation
> > [ ] is totally irrelevant
> > [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind
> > [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind
> > [ ] is a dream of mine
> > [ ] is only for about 5% of us
> > [ ] but, not for the rest of you
> > [ ] is unfair to women
> > [ ] is unfair to men
> > [x] is lust in action
> > [ ] places men in bondage
> > [ ] places women in bondage
> > [ ] is good to conserve resources
> > [ ] should be restored in the LDS church
> > [ ] should never be spoken about
> > [ ] what's polygomy?
>
Ken Shaw



Subject: 
        FYI-Indian Israel?
   Date: 
        Thu, 13 May 1999 16:54:30 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
        ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        TNeoptolmus@aol.com, oonandagus@webtv.net,
        trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
        74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
        timquick@cwnet.com




The following announcement is posted at
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm
refer there for up-dates and further information.
Also posted there is a brief word study relevant to their
coming.

Sterling D. Allan
http://www.GreaterThings.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MAYAN ELDERS COMING TO TOWN

From: L De Lynn Hansen
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 1:27 PM

Howdy all....

Two Mayan elders will be coming up from the South to open
the knowledge of many hidden Mayan prophecies and details
from the Mayan calender. They were invited here by Chief
Robert Three Eagles, a friend of mine and resident of Kanab,
Utah. When the invitation was given, they discussed this
with their senior elders and after much prayer and fasting,
they decided now was the time to come to those people of the
north and make the connection as they have a part to play
here in the near future.

This will start June 4th at the location of the Relief Mine
(Dream Mine/bishop Koyle) at their request to give this mine
their blessing in a special ceremony. Saturday and Sunday
they will be speaking at the National Guard building in
Spani sh Fork, Utah [see map] through a translator. Contact
me  f o r   f urther information.

Doc
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above announcement is posted at
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm
refer there for up-dates and further information.
Sterling at http://www.GreaterThings.com




Subject: 
        Sufi stuff
   Date: 
        Thu, 13 May 1999 17:53:17 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
        ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        ".Neoptolmus"@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com





                            Partial synopsis of

                        Manifestations of Thought

                                  by
                             
          Molana-al-Moazam Hazrat Shah Maghsoud Sadegh Angha

The whole of existence is a single living being.  Everything is
perfect and whole. Our fear and suffering arises from ignorance
of our true identity.  Marifat (gnosis) is the recognition of
our true identity.

God is the only thing that exists at all...period.  Our experience
of being seperate "individuals" is a temporary state of confusion.

When we are dreaming, we appear as one of the characters in the dream,
but the dream is "contained" in us at the same time.  We are simultaniously
the dreamer and the "dreamed".  Our world is being "dreamed" into existence
in the mind of God, and our appearance in that dream is a "character" in that
dream.  Since God is the only "Being" that exists at all, each one of us is
both the "dreamer" and the "dreamed" at the same time.

Ken Shaw





           Re: FYI-Indian Israel?
      Date: 
           Thu, 13 May 1999 18:10:58 -0400
      From: 
           proclus 
        To: 
           Ken Shaw 
        CC: 
           MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
           ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
           ariel144@hotmail.com,
           comdb@yahoo.com,
           jswick@cris.com,
           kathleen@enol.com,
           shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
           mpierce@switchsoft.com,
           TNeoptolmus@aol.com,
           oonandagus@webtv.net,
           trent@goodnet.com,
           rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
           74277.3365@compuserve.com,
           rpcman@hotmail.com,
           enoch144@eagle-net.org,
           timquick@cwnet.com
 References: 
           1



Ken, you are a blessed man for posting
that.  Where do you find this
stuff?!:-}  I only wish that I could be
there.  It sounds great.  Maybe
Terence is right about hyperspace and the
mayan calendar.  I've had very
disjointed sense of reality of late.
Heh, that could just be because of
The Matrix, though.  I've seen it three
times.


Regards,
proclus


Ken Shaw wrote:
> 
> The following announcement is posted at
> 
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm
> refer there for up-dates and further
information.
> Also posted there is a brief word study
relevant to their
> coming.
> 
> Sterling D. Allan
> http://www.GreaterThings.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> MAYAN ELDERS COMING TO TOWN
> 
> From: L De Lynn Hansen
> Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 1:27 PM
> 
> Howdy all....
> 
> Two Mayan elders will be coming up from
the South to open
> the knowledge of many hidden Mayan
prophecies and details
> from the Mayan calender. They were
invited here by Chief
> Robert Three Eagles, a friend of mine
and resident of Kanab,
> Utah. When the invitation was given,
they discussed this
> with their senior elders and after much
prayer and fasting,
> they decided now was the time to come
to those people of the
> north and make the connection as they
have a part to play
> here in the near future.
> 
> This will start June 4th at the
location of the Relief Mine
> (Dream Mine/bishop Koyle) at their
request to give this mine
> their blessing in a special ceremony.
Saturday and Sunday
> they will be speaking at the National
Guard building in
> Spanish Fork, Utah [see map] through a
translator. Contact
> me for further information.
> 
> Doc
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The above announcement is posted at
> 
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Mayan.htm
> refer there for up-dates and further
information.
> Sterling at 
http://www.GreaterThings.com

-- 
Visit proclus' realm! 
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@
b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++ 
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------




          Re: geeky stuff
      Date: 
          Thu, 13 May 1999 19:08:28 -0700
     From: 
          Joe Steve Swick III 
       To: 
          Ken Shaw , rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
          proclus@mac.com
       CC: 
          kshaw@dalsemi.com, tudent007@msn.com,
          MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
          timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
          kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
          mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
          trent@goodnet.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
          rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org
 References: 
          1



I believe that polygamy:
 
         [x] is required for salvation
         [x] will bring damnation
         [ ] is totally irrelevant
         [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind
         [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind
         [ ] is a dream of mine
         [ ] is only for about 5% of us
         [ ] but, not for the rest of you
         [ ] is unfair to women
         [ ] is unfair to men
         [ ] is lust in action
         [ ] places men in bondage
         [ ] places women in bondage
         [ ] is good to conserve resources
         [ ] should be restored in the LDS church
         [ ] should never be spoken about
          [ ] what's polygamy?

> Ken Shaw
> 



    Subject: 
          Re: geeky stuff
      Date: 
          Thu, 13 May 1999 19:16:37 -0700
     From: 
          Joe Steve Swick III 
       To: 
          Ken Shaw , proclus@mac.com
       CC: 
          rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, tudent007@msn.com,
          MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
          timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
          kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
          mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
          trent@goodnet.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
          rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org
 References: 
          1



  I consider myself:

  [x] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
  [ ] LDS
  [x] a mormon
  [x] a radical mormon
  [  ] a fundamentalist mormon
  [x] one of those rare "fundamentalist" mormons who is not racist
  [ ] a jack-mormon
  [ ] a non-mormon
  [x] something else
  [ ] a wierdo
  [ ] this survey sucks




 Subject: 
        RE: geeky stuff
   Date: 
        Thu, 13 May 1999 23:29:39 -0600
  From: 
        Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
        "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
        'proclus' 
    CC: 
        Ken Shaw ,
        "tudent007@msn.com" ,
        "MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com" ,
        "ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" ,
        "timquick@cwnet.com" ,
        "ariel144@hotmail.com" ,
        "comdb@yahoo.com" ,
        "jswick@cris.com" ,
        "kathleen@enol.com" ,
        "shirtail@cyberhighway.net" ,
        "mpierce@switchsoft.com" ,
        "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
        "trent@goodnet.com" ,
        "74277.3365@compuserve.com" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        "rpcman@hotmail.com" ,
        "enoch144@eagle-net.org" 




----------
From:   proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent:   Thursday, May 13, 1999 3:15 PM
To:     rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
Cc:     Ken Shaw; tudent007@msn.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; 
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; timquick@cwnet.com; ariel144@hotmail.com; 
comdb@yahoo.com; jswick@cris.com; kathleen@enol.com; 
shirtail@cyberhighway.net; mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; 
trent@goodnet.com; 74277.3365@compuserve.com; rpcman@hotmail.com; 
enoch144@eagle-net.org
Subject:        Re: geeky stuff

Here we go!

Kerry says:
> I believe that polygomy:
>
> [ ] is required for salvation
> [ ] will bring damnation
> [x ] is totally irrelevant
> [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind
> [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind
> [ ] is a dream of mine
> [ ] is only for about 5% of us
> [ ] but, not for the rest of you
> [ ] is unfair to women
> [ ] is unfair to men
> [ ] is lust in action
> [ ] places men in bondage
> [ ] places women in bondage
> [ ] is good to conserve resources
> [ ] should be restored in the LDS church
> [ ] should never be spoken about
> [ x] what's polygomy? (GRIN!)

Kerry A. Shirts


 Subject: 
        RE: geeky stuff
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 08:09:47 -0400
  From: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     To: 
        Kerry Shirts 
    CC: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        Andy Mcguire ,
        Kathleen McGuire ,
        "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
        Joe Steve Swick III ,
        ArtdeHoyos ,
        Randall Shortridge ,
        'proclus' , Beth any ,
        rpc man ,
        "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
        "Neoptolmus@aol.com" ,
        Dave , Ken Shaw ,
        Beth ,
        "Michael J. Pierce" ,
        Enoch Shemna 



Message text written by Kerry Shirts
>Kerry:
So what and where is the Gospel then?<

I guess that you did not know. I am a follower of Ross LeBaron. The true
successor, in fact. I am an associate of Fred Collier. The _TRUTH_ lies in
plural marriage, Adam-God, and true temple Mormonism. The LDS still have
the Aaronic Priesthood and their temple work is under the Aaronic
Priesthood. This is the nutshell version. What the LDS have is true, but
there is much more.

Robert.


 Subject: 
        Re: geeky stuff
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 08:09:57 -0400
  From: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     To: 
        Joe Steve Swick III 
    CC: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        Ken Shaw ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" 



I believe that polygamy:
 
         [x] is required for salvation
         [x] will bring damnation
         [ ] is totally irrelevant
         [ ] was a figment of Brigham's mind
         [ ] is a figment of Hinckley's mind
         [ ] is a dream of mine
         [ ] is only for about 5% of us
         [ ] but, not for the rest of you
         [ ] is unfair to women
         [ ] is unfair to men
         [ ] is lust in action
         [ ] places men in bondage
         [ ] places women in bondage
         [ ] is good to conserve resources
         [ ] should be restored in the LDS church
         [ ] should never be spoken about
          [ ] what's polygamy?

Robert.


 Subject: 
        Re: geeky stuff
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 08:10:00 -0400
  From: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     To: 
        Ken Shaw 
    CC: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" 



 I consider myself as;
 [ ] a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 [ ] LDS
 [ ] a mormon
 [x] a radical mormon
 [x] a fundamentalist mormon
 [ ] a jack-mormon
 [ ] a non-mormon
 [ ] something else
 [ ] a wierdo
 [ ] this survey sucks

Robert


    Subject: 
          another survey -- Adam-God
      Date: 
          Fri, 14 May 1999 08:48:13 -0400
     From: 
          Randall Shortridge 
       To: 
          Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
       CC: 
          Joe Steve Swick III ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          Ken Shaw ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" ,
          "[unknown]" 
 References: 
          1



Another survey for our amusement....

Regarding the Adam-God doctrine, I believe that:

[  ]   it is a true doctrine.
[  ]   I have never heard of it.
[  ]   I wish I had never heard of it.
[  ]   Brigham was misquoted.
[  ]   Brigham was misunderstood.
[  ]   Brigham was misguided.
[  ]   I want to know more, please send missionaries.
[  ]   Forget it, I've tried that last one.
[  ]   I will ask my bishop.
[  ]   I will tell my bishop about you.
[  ]   I don't care, I follow a modern prophet.
[  ]   if you keep asking, you will be in a disciplinary council.
[  ]   it is a fabrication by anti-mormons.
[  ]   it is a fabrication by mormons.
[  ]   Adam was our Father and Jesus's father in the physical sense,
nothing else.
[  ]   it means that Adam is one of the Eloiheim.
[  ]   let's change the subject.



 Subject: 
        Re: another survey -- Adam-God
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 08:26:18 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        74277.3365@compuserve.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu
    CC: 
        jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
        enoch144@eagle-net.org, rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com,
        onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
        ariel144@hotmail.com, timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Student007@msn.com



> Another surve y for our amusement....
> 
>  Re ga rd ing the Adam-God doctrine, I believe that:
> 
> [x ]   it is a true doctrine.
> [  ]   I have never heard of it.
> [  ]   I wish I had never heard of it.
> [  ]   Brigham was misquoted.
> [x ]   Brigham was misunderstood.
> [  ]   Brigham was misguided.
> [  ]   I want to know more, please send missionaries.
> [  ]   Forget it, I've tried that last one.
> [  ]   I will ask my bishop.
> [  ]   I will tell my bishop about you.
> [  ]   I don't care, I follow a modern prophet.
> [  ]   if you keep asking, you will be in a disciplinary council.
> [  ]   it is a fabrication by anti-mormons.
> [  ]   it is a fabrication by mormons.
> [  ]   Adam was our Father and Jesus's father in the physical sense,
> nothing else.
> [x ]   it means that Adam is one of the Eloiheim.
> [  ]   let's change the subject.
> 
> 

Brigham got this from Joseph for sure.  Even the so-called "adamic"
Name of God "Ahman" is a kind of a joke that lays down a clue.  It
becomes plain when Joseph goes on to use "Son Ahman" and "Sons Ahman".
that he's playing with us.  The "ah" of "Ahman" is probably "iah" (YaHuVeH)
and "man" is "adam" in hebrew.  So the true name of God in the "pure 
language of Adam" is none other than "Yah-Adam".  YaHuVeh is a form of
"hayah" (I Am) which means "was-am-will be" or, in other words, "Eternal".

Eternal-Adam something other than what our imaginations came come to grips
with, but it looks like the Universe went through the whole process of 
unfolding into Space-Time, congealing stars and planets out of Itself, 
launching "reflections" of Itself into matter to create Life, and then
carefully evolving an organizism that had the capacity to "realize reality".

It looks like the "Whole-of-Existence" evolved us out of the dust in order
to "see Itself".

Ken Shaw 





 Subject: 
        Judy's Sufi essay
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 09:18:40 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        74277.3365@compuserve.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
        kshaw@dalsemi.com
    CC: 
        jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
        rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
        mpierce@switchsoft.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
        kathleen@enol.com, comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, Student007@msn.com



Hail Mutants!

I'm sending along this book-report that my wife Judy wrote as
part of our studies with the MTO Shahmaghsoudi School of Islamic
Sufism.

Ken
------------------------------------------------

BOOK REVIEW OF "THE CHASM OF FIRE"

by Irina Tweedie


In the preface of her book, "The Chasm of Fire", Irina Tweedie states: 
"Somewhere in one of the Upanishads - I do not remember which one - 
there is a sentence which puts our quest for spirituality in a nutshell: 
"If you want Truth as badly as a drowning man wants air, you will 
realize it in a split second. It is the task of the Teacher to set the 
heart aflame with an unquenchable fire of longing; it is his duty to 
keep it burning until it is reduced to ashes. For only a heart which has 
burned itself empty is capable of love." My heart also feels a longing 
for truth, a longing for home, somehow forgotten. If obtaining heaven on 
earth is as simple as wanting it, then it is my prayer that I may have 
the faith to follow simple instructions such as reading a book and 
meditating so that my heart my also be capable of such love.

"The Chasm of Fire" was written as a diary of the author's observations 
while studying with a Sufi Master in India in 1961. This book is a 
detailed record of Ms. Tweedie's spiritual training. It is an "account 
of the slow grinding down of personality - a painful process for Man 
cannot remake himself without suffering." Through this painful process, 
Irina Tweedie was able to find true liberation and come to know that 
"the Path of Love is like a bridge of hair across a Chasm of Fire."

My mind recalled a teaching I received from one of my very first visits 
to Kannegah
while reading the first few pages. When the author first met her master 
she stated: "When I arrived I had a feeling of coming home; and I cannot 
get rid of the impression that I knew you before. That I knew you 
always." Ms. Tweedie also asked the importance of needing a teacher. 
Likewise, I recalled a similar feeling sitting at my first session of 
instruction. Mr. Madaani taught me that a true student of Sufism can 
only learn through the experience of the heart opened to his teacher, a 
spiritual guide, or spiritual master. He advised me to pray to have my 
teacher revealed unto me that I may "know him". The importance of not 
placing my focus and attention on the understanding of the words or 
books but that I needed to experience the feeling in my heart while this 
words were read or heard. Since then, I have come to realize that it is 
necessary to be guided by the "arif or Pir , my spiritual master". This 
teaching is of great importance because the master has already attained 
a state of absolute cognition and will guide me on the path. The Pir 
will provide me the necessary experiences for my development and 
progress, "just as a gardener cares for each of his plants." A Sufi 
teacher acts as a mirror, reflecting everything back to the student in 
order that the student can see him/herslef clearly in order to be able 
to cognize the absolute.

Consequently the student learns from his/her own experience. This 
rocess changes, stimulates, alters, and leads one on the path of God. 
Two important tools of the training are concentration and mediation used 
to aid one in overcoming the disturbances and direct the correct flow of 
energy. I have been taught that there is a difference between 
concentration and mediation, two different but necessary steps along the 
path. As I have come to understand, concentration is focusing or 
collecting all the energy on the sources. There are thirteen sources 
active and the main source is the source of life, which is located in 
the heart. One begins with concentration, focusing on the body and mind. 
Mediation means absolute awareness. The first step towards mediation is 
reaching the proper state of concentration. Absolute awareness exists 
when one is able to have complete harmony and become present. Thus 
concentration and mediation enable one to experience and discover the 
source of life.
Another teaching mentioned in the book was Zikr. The author reported 
that her master " looked radiant, singing this Persian song, beating 
time on his thigh with the palm of his hand. I quickly remembered 
hearing the singing for the first time. It was disturbing, as if 
familiar and yet it seemed to transport me to another time or place of 
being. Although I did not understand the language in most of the songs, 
I was deeply moved even to tears, as if trying to grasp long forgotten 
memories buried deep inside. Since that first experience, I have learned 
that it is not important to listen with my mind to understand the 
meaning of the language or words of the songs, but to concentrate on the 
feeling in my heart. As I sway to the rythmn of the music, I begin to 
feel a powerful force or energy develop in the region of my heart and 
begin to flow throughout my entire being which mingles with the energies 
of the others and charges the room with a feeling of electricity. 
Sometimes I feel a sense of "drunkenness", a very warm dizzy feeling 
which fills the entire room and I never want this feeling to end. I am 
so thankful when these kinds of feelings last for several days 
afterwards and it is a longing for this drink which brings me back each 
week. Zikr means to remember-remembering God at all times.

The concept of habits was also discussed in the book. I recalled Mr. 
Soborie's teaching on habits several weeks ago. When we create habits we 
prevent growth. Habits injure our feelings and we imprison ourselves; 
imprisonment is limitation, limitation is suffering. Even prayer can 
become a habit.

Lastly, the sum of my experience while reading and mediating was the 
burning of love in my heart while reading and mediating this past week. 
The one concept the author had such difficulty grasping was the concept 
of love. Love is the essence of Sufism. It is the union of the lover 
with the beloved. Love is the foundation as taught by the prophets. 
Jesus instructed his followers to "love the Lord your God with all your 
heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This spiritual 
love is the same love which exists between spiritual teachers and 
students, between masters and disciples. This love is centered in the 
heart and is the goal of the student to remove the veils so that we can 
cognize God.

Hazart Pir teaches that "this kind of cognition is obtained only through 
loving, obeying and worshipping God by all means, with the self, heart 
and mind under the supervision of a master who will be introduced 
inwardly and secretly by God through the seeker's heart." There are no 
words to describe this type of intense burning or desire.

Last week, Mr. Soborie said that he knew what we needed, then he gave us 
the instruction to read and mediate. Although I did not realize it at 
the time the assignment was given, I have come to know that this 
assignment was exactly what I needed to experience-spiritual love. The 
taste has been given and my desire stirred enough that my thirst must be 
quenched. May the Chasm of Fire purify my heart also.


 Subject: 
        RE: another survey -- Adam-God
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 11:53:50 -0400
  From: 
        proclus 
     To: 
        Andy Mcguire ,
        ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
        Beth any , Dave ,
        Joe Steve Swick III ,
        Kathleen McGuire ,
        Kerry Shirts ,
        "Michael J. Pierce" ,
        "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
        proclus ,
        "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
        Randall Shortridge ,
        "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        rpc man , Ken Shaw ,
        Enoch Shemna 



Oh goody!


Regarding the Adam-God doctrine, I
believe that:

[ x ]   it is a true doctrine.
[  ]   I have never heard of it.
[  ]   I wish I had never heard of it.
[  ]   Brigham was misquoted.
[ x ]   Brigham was misunderstood.
[  ]   Brigham was misguided.
[  ]   I want to know more, please send
missionaries.
[  ]   Forget it, I've tried that last
one.
[  ]   I will ask my bishop.
[  ]   I will tell my bishop about you.
[  ]   I don't care, I follow a modern
prophet.
[  ]   if you keep asking, you will be in
a disciplinary council.
[  ]   it is a fabrication by
anti-mormons.
[  ]   it is a fabrication by mormons.
[  ]   Adam was our Father and Jesus's
father in the physical sense,
nothing else.
[ x ]   it means that Adam is one of the
Eloiheim.
[  ]   let's change the subject.

I appears to be pretty easy to set up a survey on the web.  I'm going to
be away from my computer this weekend, so I this will have to wait until
I get back.

There are a couple of issues, and they revolve around the use of
cookies.  First, the XOR option may be the only option at this time. 
The server uses cookies to prevent people from "cheating" and voting
more than once.  You can turn off the cookie option, which would allow
people to effectively vote for more than one thing.  Unfortunately, this
means that they would also be able to intentionally skew the survey by
voting for the same thing more than once.

This makes the cookie option sounds pretty good, until you realize that
_some people_ will be paranoid about a survey that writes a cookie. ;-}  

It is a bit of a dilemma.  If we use cookies, our results will be more
reliable and our survey will be more secure against tampering.  On the
other hand, we may be stuck with the XOR option, and cookies may turn
people away.  Personally, I am MOST interested in the opinions of the
paranoids, who might be turned off by the cookies.  If any of you have
an opinion about this, it would be great to hear it.

Regards,
proclus



-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
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r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


    Subject: 
          Re: another survey -- tarot
      Date: 
          Fri, 14 May 1999 12:03:28 -0400
     From: 
          proclus 
       To: 
          proclus 
 References: 
          1



I got another idea for a survey, not for us, but it would give an idea
of what we can do.  Here it is.  If you think it needs some work, feel
free.

To me, tarot cards are:
[ ] a stack of cardboard
[ ] maligned by superstitious people
[ ] a tool of the devil
[ ] a tool for exploration
[ ] a tool for divination

(proclus grinz)

Regards,
proclus

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w---
!O M++
V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


 Subject: 
        [Fwd: another survey -- tarot]
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 12:05:07 -0400
  From: 
        proclus 
     To: 
        Andy Mcguire ,
        ArtdeHoyos , Beth ,
        Beth any , Dave ,
        Joe Steve Swick III ,
        Kathleen McGuire ,
        Kerry Shirts ,
        "Michael J. Pierce" ,
        "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
        proclus ,
        "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
        Randall Shortridge ,
        "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        rpc man , Ken Shaw ,
        Enoch Shemna 



 


    Subject: 
          Re: another survey -- tarot
      Date: 
          Fri, 14 May 1999 12:03:28 -0400
     From: 
          proclus 
       To: 
          proclus 
 References: 
          1



I got another idea for a survey, not for us, but it would give an idea
of what we can do.  Here it is.  If you think it needs some work, feel
free.

To me, tarot cards are:
[ ] a stack of cardboard
[ ] maligned by superstitious people
[ ] a tool of the devil
[ ] a tool for exploration
[ ] a tool for divination

(proclus grinz)

Regards,
proclus

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w---
!O M++
V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


 Subject: 
        [Fwd: another survey -- tarot]
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 16:16:27 -0400
  From: 
        proclus 
     To: 
        proclus 



 Subject: 
        another survey -- tarot
   Date: 
        Fri, 14 May 1999 12:36:33 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
        jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com, shir tail@cyberhighway.net,
        mpier ce@ swi tch soft.com, onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com,
        trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
        74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org



 
I got another idea for a survey, not for us, but it would give an idea
of what we can do.  Here it is.  If you think it needs some work, feel
free.

To me, tarot cards are:

[ ] a stack of cardboard
[ ] maligned by superstitious people
[ ] a tool of the devil
[ ] a tool for exploration
[ ] a tool for divination
[X] an artifact of a discarded training method

Ken Shaw


   Subject: 
          Fwd: another survey -- Adam-God
     Date: 
          Mon, 17 May 1999 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT)
    From: 
          Michael Love 
 Reply-To: 
          proclus@mac.com
       To: 
          proclus@mac.com




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


 Subject: 
        another survey -- Adam-God
   Date: 
        Sat, 15 May 1999 07:41:20 -0400
  From: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     To: 
        Randall Shortridge 
    CC: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        Ken Shaw ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        Joe Steve Swick III 



Regarding the Adam-God doctrine, I believe that:

[x ]   it is a true doctrine.
[  ]   I have never heard of it.
[  ]   I wish I had never heard of it.
[  ]   Brigham was misquoted.
[  ]   Brigham was misunderstood.
[  ]   Brigham was misguided.
[  ]   I want to know more, please send missionaries.
[  ]   Forget it, I've tried that last one.
[  ]   I will ask my bishop.
[  ]   I will tell my bishop about you.
[  ]   I don't care, I follow a modern prophet.
[  ]   if you keep asking, you will be in a disciplinary council.
[  ]   it is a fabrication by anti-mormons.
[  ]   it is a fabrication by mormons.
[  ]   Adam was our Father and Jesus's father in the physical sense,
nothing else.
[  ]   it means that Adam is one of the Eloiheim.
[  ]   let's change the subject.

Robert.




   Subject: 
          Fwd: Re: another survey -- tarot
     Date: 
          Mon, 17 May 1999 09:13:32 -0700 (PDT)
    From: 
          Michael Love 
 Reply-To: 
          proclus@mac.com
       To: 
          proclus@mac.com




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


    Subject: 
          Re: another survey -- tarot
      Date: 
          Sat, 15 May 1999 11:35:07 -0700
     From: 
          Joe Steve Swick III 
       To: 
          Ken Shaw , MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
          ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, timquick@cwnet.com,
          ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com,
          shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
          onandagus@webtv.net, proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com,
          rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
          rpcman@hotmail.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
          George Head 
 References: 
          1



Maybe injecting a bit of cynical humor would be nice. JSW

 To me, tarot cards are:

 [ ] a stack of cardboard
 [ ] maligned by superstitious people
 [ ] a unique form of art
 [ ] a tool of the Devil
 [ ] a tool of God
 [ ] a tool of both God and the Devil -- I mean, what's the difference?
 [ ] a tool for exploration
 [ ] the Voice
 [ ] a tool used by the avaricious to separate the superstitious from their
money
 [ ] a key for unlocking perceptual doors
 [ ] the mystic's equivalent of the morning cup of espresso
 [ ] a blueprint of / travel guide to the human psyche
 [ ] a tool for divination
 [ ] a babe magnet
 [ ] an artifact of a discarded training method






   Subject: 
          Fwd: another survey -- tarot
     Date: 
          Mon, 17 May 1999 09:14:15 -0700 (PDT)
    From: 
          Michael Love 
 Reply-To: 
          proclus@mac.com
       To: 
          proclus@mac.com




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


 Subject: 
        another survey -- tarot
   Date: 
        Sat, 15 May 1999 07:41:24 -0400
  From: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     To: 
        Ken Shaw 
    CC: 
        Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" 



To me, tarot cards are:

[ ] a stack of cardboard
[ ] maligned by superstitious people
[ ] a tool of the devil
[ ] a tool for exploration
[ ] a tool for divination
[X] an artifact of a discarded training method

Robert.




   Subject: 
          Fwd: RE: another survey -- tarot
     Date: 
          Mon, 17 May 1999 09:17:18 -0700 (PDT)
    From: 
          Michael Love 
 Reply-To: 
          proclus@mac.com
       To: 
          proclus@mac.com






===
Visit proclus' realm!
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++ UULI++$ P L+ E--- W++ N- !o K-
w--- !O M++ V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G
e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++ 
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------




---Kerry Shirts  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> ----------
> From:         Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@cris.com]
> Sent:         Saturday, May 15, 1999 12:35 PM
> To:   Ken Shaw; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com;
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; 
> timquick@cwnet.com; ariel144@hotmail.com;
comdb@yahoo.com; 
> kathleen@enol.com; shirtail@cyberhighway.net;
mpierce@switchsoft.com; 
> onandagus@webtv.net; proclus@mac.com;
trent@goodnet.com; 
> rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; 74277.3365@compuserve.com;
rpcman@hotmail.com; 
> enoch144@eagle-net.org; George Head
> Subject:      Re: another survey -- tarot
> 
> Maybe injecting a bit of cynical humor would be
nice. JSW
> 
>  To me, tarot cards are:
> 
> Kerry says
> 
>  [x ] a stack of cardboard [in some cases they are!]
>  [ ] maligned by superstitious people
>  [ x] a unique form of art [this without question]
>  [ x] a tool of the Devil [can certainly be used as
such]
>  [ x] a tool of God [can certainly be used as such]
>  [ x] a tool of both God and the Devil -- I mean,
what's the difference? 
> [the difference is in how people use them]
>  [ x] a tool for exploration [without question they
get my juices flowing 
> at times]
>  [ x] the Voice [the voice? Are we schizto here or
something?!]
>  [ x] a tool used by the avaricious to separate the
superstitious from 
> their
> money [without question]
>  [ x] a key for unlocking perceptual doors [again,
without question]
>  [ x] the mystic's equivalent of the morning cup of
espresso [cute! But no 
> kidding, I know people that use it for such!]
>  [ ] a blueprint of / travel guide to the human
psyche
>  [ x] a tool for divination [as was the ancient
Urim & Thummim]
>  [ ] a babe magnet
>  [ ] an artifact of a discarded training method
> 
> Kerry A. Shirts
> 
> 



Subject: 
        BoM stuff
   Date: 
        Mon, 17 May 1999 14:29:04 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
        Student007@msn.com
    CC: 
        proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
        rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com,
        onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com,
        rds@acsu.buffalo.edu




Howdy!

As much as people rail against "The Book 0f Mormon", the fact is that
it exists and is an astonishing phenomona.  The BoM cannot be explained
away.  

I've been trying to understand what exactly happened to Joseph Smith for
25 years, and the only other place I've found anything like it is the
Tibetan Buddhist tradition of "Termas".  A "Terma" is a scripture that
was hidden by a Buddhist Yogi in the past, to come forth in a time when
the info could be of benefit.  The finders of "Termas" are called "Tertons"
who are Buddhist holy men. "Tertons" lead by dreams and visions to a place where
the ground or rocks miraculously open up to their prayers and spells to yield
up texts written in an unknow script called "dakini script".  Only the "Terton"
has the yogic power to decipher the text, but some others are allowed to view the
text.

All this leads me to see a connection between appearance of YaHuWeH on Sinai,
the "pillar of fire" that followed the camp of Israel, the conception of Jesus,
and "First Vision" of Joseph Smith with the so called "UFO" phenomona and the
ancient Buddhist theory of "Bodhisatvas".  "Bodhisatvas" are people who followed
the Yogic path of salation to the point of "Full Awakening", only to stop short
in order to continue to labor in this realm of reality in order to try to teach
and help all us poor jokers left back here in this nightmare world.  The
"Bodhisatva"
is the origin of concept of "Angels" in the ancient world.

Kenneth Shaw







Subject: 
        FYI-Fundamentalist stuff
   Date: 
        Tue, 18 May 1999 10:04:10 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com,
        Student007@msn.com
    CC: 
        proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
        rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com,
        onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com,
        rds@acsu.buffalo.edu





Sterling,

In the early Eighties I became good friends with Ernest
Strack
of Grandpa's Books fame in Provo.  His whole focus was on
the
old "Fundamentalist" tradition of the "Keys of the
Priesthood"
being transferred to the "Lamanites" at Pyramid Lake in
Nevada
in 1890.  He lived and died in the hope of the appearance of
the
"Indian Prophet" as "The One Mighty and Strong" to "set in
order
the House of God".  After awhile I couldn't buy into as deep
as he,
and we parted company as I went out into the world to sort
out what
I really believe.  Ernest died in 1990 from a cancer started
in his
throat after being beaten up for polygamy.

Later I learned about the Mayan calendar system and the date
of
12/22/2012 and the continued existance of an intact
religious
tradition among the Mayas.  That started me wondering about
all
that old "fundamentalist" stuff again and stirred up the old
feelings
of love and friendship and religious hope.

If you really want me to write something, let me know.

Ken Shaw
---------
Ken,

Yes, I would be interested in having you writing something
up, if you feel you have something that would be of interest
to others -- and it sounds like you do.

If anything, something to stir up some good questions (which
are what bring good answers).

We could post (link) it at the Mayan Elders Coming web page.

A resource you might find of interest here is Scott
Anderson.  He is the one who lent me "keys of the priesthood
illustrated" several years back.  He's heavy into the
Lamanite stuff.  Maybe the two of you could collaborate on
something to post.

You need to do it pretty soon, because I'm getting married
Saturday, leaving for a honeymoon for a week following.
(see www.greaterthings.com/engaged/ )

Sterling
http://www.GreaterThings.com
----------------------
'SIYO (HELLO) KEN,

I AM AN OLD FRIEND OF THE STRACKS ALSO, AND A FRIEND OF
ROBERT THREE EAGL=
ES SHREWSBURY=20
AND MANDY SINCE ABOUT 1991.

I CUT MY TEETH ON "KEYS OF THE PRIESTHOOD ILLUSTRATED" IN
1985

I WAS AND REMAIN A FIRM BELIEVER I THE FULLNESS, AND THE
INDIAN PROPHET T=
O COME SOON. I AM A
STOCKHOLDER IN THE RELIEF MINE.

I AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE MAYANS THAT HAVE BEEN ACTIVE
IN THE us. AND T=
HEIR CONTACTS HERE IN THE
U.S. I FEATURE THEIR WRITINGS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS ON MY
WEBSITE.

SOON AFTER 1977, I WAS BEEN TOLD IN A SERIES OF DREAMS (AFTER
I JOINED TH=
E CHURCH THAT=20
YEAR),  THAT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT WOULD HAPPEN
AFTER I HAD BEEN IN TH=
E CHURCH FOR 7 YEARS,=20
AND AFTER I WAS 30 YEARS OLD.

IN DEC 1994, I TURNED 30 YEARS OLD. THE NEXT MARCH, I WAS IN
THE WHITMORE=
 LIBRARY AND FOUND LYNN
AND STEVEN BISHOP'S BOOK MENTIONED ABOVE, I HEARD AN
AUDIBLE VOICE TELL M=
E TO "READ THAT BOOK".

I SOON MET RHEA KUNZ (B. HARVEY ALLRED'S DAUGHTER WHO
KNEW LORIN C WOOLLE=
Y AS A CHILD)=20

RHEA TAUGHT ME ABOUT THE FULLNESS, AND TO STAY AWAY
FROM THE POLYGAMY GRO=
UPS.=20
MY CURIOSITY GOT THE BEST OF ME, AND I DID DISCUSS THINGS
WITH ROSS LEBAR=
ON AND OTHERS.=20
I NEVER BOUGHT INTO ANY GROUP. I DID HAPPEN TO GET A JOB AT
A MORTGAGE CO=
MPANY OWNED BY =20
ONE OF THE POLYGAMIST LEADERS IN COLORADO CITY, AND LIVED
THERE LONG ENOU=
GH TO FIND OUT=20
WHAT A MESS POLYG GROUPS ARE. THEY ARE JUST AS
OUT-OF-ORDER AS THE CHURCH=
 (AND EVERY OTHER
RELIGION ON EARTH) IS (EXCEPT FOR THE ORGANIZATION THAT
DOES EXIST ON EAR=
TH AND IN THE ETERNITIES=20
TO SET IT IN ORDER)

I WAS LIVING IN MANTI WHEN THE HARMSTONS WERE STARTING
THINGS UP, BUT LEF=
T AFTER=20
THEY BECAME A CHURCH. THEY WERE VERY INTERESTED IN
NATIVE AMERICAN THINGS=
, AND SOUGHT=20
ADOPTION BY THE IROQUOIS, BUT SOON SHOWED THEIR TRUE
COLORS.

RHEA INTRODUCED ME TO HER FRIEND AND HOPI SPOKESPERSON
ZULA BRINKERHOFF, =
WHO INTRODUCED=20
ME TO THREE EAGLES, AND GRANDFATHER ROLLING THUNDER,
THE CHEROKEE MEDICIN=
E TEACHER.

I MOVED TO MAOB AFTER THE DEATH OF MY FIRST WIFE JOANNE IN
MID 1995.

I PUBLISHED THE "JOURNAL OF PROPHECIES OF NATIVE PEOPLES
WORLDWIDE" IN SE=
PTEMBER OF 1995.
IT WENT ON THE INTERNET THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

I SOON BECAME ACTIVE IN NATIVE AMERICAN AFFAIRS WITH MY
OWN CHEROKEE PEOP=
LE IN 1996, AND=20
ENROLLED IN ONE OF THE CHEROKEE TRIBES.=20

SOME MORE BACKGROUND ON MY AFFAIRS:

IN THE WINTER OF 1998, I BEGAN HELPING THE 5TH GREAT
GRANDSON OF THE FAMO=
US CHEROKEE LEADER MAJOR
RIDGE TO GET THE SOUTHERN CHEROKEE NATION (WHICH WAS
LEFT IN POLITICAL LI=
MBO AFTER THE=20
CIVIL WAR) REORGANIZED UNDER THE 1827 CONSTITUTION,
REASSERTING IT AS A S=
OVEREIGN NATION. IT HAS
THE SAME STATUS LEGALLY AS NORTH KORAE, SINCE IT
CEASEFIRED WITH THE U.S.=
 AND WAS NOT VANQUISHED.

DETAILS AT http://cwyphoenix.hypermart.net=20

MAJOR RIDGE, HIS SON JOHN, AND ELIAS BOUDINOT WERE
MURDERED AFTER BEING U=
NJUSTLY BLAMED=20
FOR THE TRAIL O F TE ARS.  HISTORIANS HAVE VINDICATED THE
RIDGES AND BOUDINO=
T, AND PLACED=20
MUCH OF THE BLAME ON JOHN ROSS, PRINCIPAL CHIEF OF THE
EASTERN CHEROKEES =
AT THE TIME.

WE HAVE REPUBLISHED THE CHEROKEE PHOENIX (THE FIRST
NATIVE AMERICAN NEWSP=
APER) AND I AM ITS
EDITOR.

I NOW LIVE IN OKLAHOMA CITY.

HOPE TO CORRESPONDING WITH YOU SOON!

WADO (THANKS)

SCOTT




Subject: 
        Sufi parable
   Date: 
        Wed, 19 May 1999 15:39:20 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, 74277.3365@compuserve.com
    CC: 
        proclus@mac.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
        rpcman@hotmail.com, trent@goodnet.com,
        onandagus@webtv.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, tudent007@msn.com,
        rds@acsu.buffalo.edu





  "Dhu'l Nun was said to have learned the secret 
of the hieroglyphs in the following way. At a certain
market in Egypt, there stood a statue of a Pharoah 
pointing toward a rock. On the finger of the statue
was inscribed, "Strike here for treasures." People 
had battered the hard rock for many years. It was
very hard and little progress was made. Dhu'l Nun 
seeing that this was not a profitable avenue,
began to look for other meanings. He noticed that 
the shadow of the finger traced a line along the
pavement exactly at a point between two paving stones. 
He pried up the stones and found several
items of strange manufacture, which when he deduced the 
*methods* used for their construction, he
was able to regain the lost arts of the Pharaohs. 

  This story has many meanings for the Order of 
Setne Khamuast. Some of them include the word
"Egypt." One of Dhu'l Nun's nicknames was "the Egyptian."
Well he was ethnically Egyptian, but
more to the point "Egypt" in Sufi literature means 
"worldly." It is the domain of matter and darkness
-- the first domain to be mastered. He didn't find 
his enlightenment in some rare temple or special
spiritual study. He found it in the world. He found 
it by looking where other people didn't look. And
when he found it, he had to discover the methods by 
which the artifacts had been made."
---------------------------------------------------

  Khidr (Elijah), the teacher of Magi, came to Moses 
and warned him that Allah was annoyed at
mankind, and was going to punish them by driving 
them mad. Allah was going to do this by poisoning
the waters. So the wise could hoard up water now, 
and thus remain sane. 

     Many did so. They sealed the water away in 
special jugs marked with the six pointed star of
stasis. They were sure they could remain sane. 

     But as they went forth in the world, they 
noticed that men now spoke in strange ways and they
could not understand the actions of men. They noticed 
that men now acted in strange ways, and they could 
not understand what men did. And men hearing the wise 
either grew angry, or full of compassion at these madmen. 

     So one by one, due to loneliness and to 
economic reasons and to fear of the madmen, 
the wise gave up drinking pure water and drank 
the waters of the Earth. They forgot all about 
their special store of water, and slowly they 
became like the rest. The rest of mankind welcomed 
them with open arms -- seeing them as madmen who 
had regained their sanity. 




         FYI-Fundy stuff
   Date: 
         Tue, 18 May 1999 10:28:59 -0500
         (CDT)
   From: 
         kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
         kshaw@dalsemi.com,
         74277.3365@compuserve.com
     CC: 
         proclus@mac.com,
         enoch144@eagle-net.org,
         rpcman@hotmail.com,
         trent@goodnet.com,
         onandagus@webtv.net,
         mpierce@switchsoft.com,
         shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
         kathleen@enol.com, jswick@cris.com,
         comdb@yahoo.com,
         ariel144@hotmail.com,
         timquick@cwnet.com,
         ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
         MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
         tudent007@msn.com,
         rds@acsu.buffalo.edu




Scott,

I'm pretty sure I met you once in
Ernest's store in Provo.  I think you
were making some observations about Bruce
R. McKonkie's coming down with 
cancer of the colin.  

I've got through alot of changes since
those Grandpa's Books days, but those
experiences have shaped my life forever.
Of all the explanations of what
the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the
Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack interpretation
still stands up as the strongest and most
logically consistant.

I've ended up following Ernest's lead by
seeking out a connection to the Sufi
tradition, and I'm now trying to apply
myself to the dicplines of the Sufi
Path with all my heart.  Ernest was both
an Islamic Sufi and an "Old Guard
Mormon Fundamentalist" at the same time.
You have your connection to the 
inner teachings of your own people, I've
had to seek out my teachers following
what clues God has given me.  

I'm wondering if God has put us back in
contact with each other as part of
something that is going on.  I will try
to make myself available to God any
way I can.

Your servant,
Kenneth Shaw


 Subject: 
         sacred geometry
   Date: 
         Tue, 18 May 1999 09:35:27 -0600
   From: 
         "Michael J. Pierce" 
     To: 
         'Kerry Shirts' ,
         Andy Mcguire ,
         Kathleen McGuire ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         ArtdeHoyos ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         Beth any ,
         rpc man ,
         onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com,
         Dave ,
         "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
         Theurgus ,
         Beth ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         'proclus' 



Anyone out there know anything about
sacred Geometry.  I read that it is
to convince the left brain of the Oneness
of God??

         


 Subject: 
         FW: FYI-Fundy stuff
   Date: 
         Tue, 18 May 1999 11:45:32 -0400
   From: 
         "McGuire, Andy" 
     To: 
         "Mike Love (E-mail)" 



Mike,

If you recall, Grandpa's Books was that
neet-o place I dragged you on your
first visit to Pervo (a.k.a. Provo)

In about a week I'll sned you links to
the web site I've been working on for
The Man.  Until then....gotta get back to
working on it.

-Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: kshaw [mailto:kshaw@dalsemi.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 9:29 AM
To: kshaw; 74277.3365
Cc: proclus; enoch144; rpcman; trent;
onandagus; mpierce; shirtail;
kathleen; jswick; comdb; ariel144;
timquick; ArtdeHoyos; MCGUIREA;
tudent007; rds
Subject: FYI-Fundy stuff




Scott,

I'm pretty sure I met you once in
Ernest's store in Provo.  I think you
were making some observations about Bruce
R. McKonkie's coming down with 
cancer of the colin.  

I've got through alot of changes since
those Grandpa's Books days, but those
experiences have shaped my life forever.
Of all the explanations of what
the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the
Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack
interpretation
still stands up as the strongest and most
logically consistant.

I've ended up following Ernest's lead by
seeking out a connection to the
Sufi
tradition, and I'm now trying to apply
myself to the dicplines of the Sufi
Path with all my heart.  Ernest was both
an Islamic Sufi and an "Old Guard
Mormon Fundamentalist" at the same time.
You have your connection to the 
inner teachings of your own people, I've
had to seek out my teachers
following
what clues God has given me.  

I'm wondering if God has put us back in
contact with each other as part of
something that is going on.  I will try
to make myself available to God any
way I can.

Your servant,
Kenneth Shaw


    Subject: 
           Re: sacred geometry
      Date: 
           Tue, 18 May 1999 08:55:02 -0700
      From: 
           Joe Steve Swick III 
        To: 
           "Michael J. Pierce" ,
           'Kerry Shirts' ,
           Andy Mcguire ,
           Kathleen McGuire ,
           "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
           ArtdeHoyos ,
           Randall Shortridge ,
           Beth any ,
           rpc man ,
           onandagus@webtv.net, Neoptolmus@aol.com,
           Dave ,
           "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           Theurgus ,
           Beth ,
           'proclus' 
 References: 
           1



___MJP___
Anyone out there know anything about
sacred Geometry.  I read that it is to
convince the left brain of the Oneness of
God??
-----

An fair introductory text to sacred
geometry would be

Lawlor, Robert.  Sacred Geometry:
Philosophy and Practice, Thames and
Hudson, 1982 ISBN 0-500-81030-3

Cheers,
JSW




 Subject: 
         Enoch.com Hacked!
   Date: 
         Wed, 19 May 1999 10:09:03 -0400
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos ,
         Beth ,
         Beth any ,
         Dave ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
         rpc man ,
         Ken Shaw ,
         Enoch Shemna 



I thought that you might like to know
that Enoch's server has been
hacked.  My agent discovered this one.
Check it out.

http://www.enoch.com/

Regards,
proclus

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
V--
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@
b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


    Subject: 
           Re: Enoch.com Hacked!
      Date: 
           Wed, 19 May 1999 11:47:26 -0400
      From: 
           Enoch Shemna 
        To: 
           proclus ,
           Andy Mcguire ,
           ArtdeHoyos ,
           Beth ,
           Beth any ,
           Dave ,
           Joe Steve Swick III ,
           Kathleen McGuire ,
           Kerry Shirts ,
           "Michael J. Pierce" ,
           onandagus@webtv.net,
           "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
           Randall Shortridge ,
           "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           rpc man ,
           Ken Shaw 
 References: 
           1



This is not my server but Eagle-Net was
hacked like this two weeks ago-
hackers are on the rise lately.

Enoch



> I thought that you might like to know
that Enoch's server has been
> hacked.  My agent discovered this one.
Check it out.
>
> http://www.enoch.com/
>
> Regards,
> proclus
>
> --
> Visit proclus realm!  
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
> V--
> PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R
tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



      Subject: 
              Re: Enoch.com Hacked!
         Date: 
              Wed, 19 May 1999 12:33:30 -0400
        From: 
              Randall Shortridge 
 Organization: 
              State University of New York
          To: 
              Enoch Shemna 
          CC: 
              proclus ,
              Andy Mcguire ,
              ArtdeHoyos ,
              Beth ,
              Beth any ,
              Dave ,
              Joe Steve Swick III ,
              Kathleen McGuire ,
              Kerry Shirts ,
              "Michael J. Pierce" ,
              onandagus@webtv.net,
              "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
              "Robert R. Black" ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
              rpc man ,
              Ken Shaw 
   References: 
              1 , 2



Maybe I am being paranoid (as usual), but
I wonder how many hackers are
on the government payroll.  ;-)

Or at least from divisions of government,
since one hand doesn't always
know what the other one doeth.

Randall

Enoch Shemna wrote:
> 
> This is not my server but Eagle-Net was
hacked like this two weeks ago-
> hackers are on the rise lately.
> 
> Enoch
> 
> > I thought that you might like to know
that Enoch's server has been
> > hacked.  My agent discovered this
one.  Check it out.
> >
> > http://www.enoch.com/
> >
> > Regards,
> > proclus
> >
> > --
> > Visit proclus realm!  
http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > Version: 3.1
> > GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P
L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++
> > V--
> > PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R
tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
> > r+++ y++++
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


 Subject: 
         FYI-Fundy stuff
   Date: 
         Thu, 20 May 1999 05:33:59 -0400
   From: 
         Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>
     To: 
         Ken Shaw 
     CC: 
         Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" ,
         "[unknown]" 



Message text written by Ken Shaw
>I've got through alot of changes since
those Grandpa's Books days, but
those
experiences have shaped my life forever.
Of all the explanations of what
the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the
Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack
interpretation
still stands up as the strongest and most
logically consistant.<

Guess where Ernest got his stuff.  My
library. I used to run the Mormon
Underground Press. Do you know what
happened to Gordon or Lynn?

Robert.


    Subject: 
           Re: FYI-Fundy stuff
      Date: 
           Thu, 20 May  1999 08:07:16 -0700
      From: 
           Joe Steve Swick III 
        To: 
           Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           Ken Shaw 
        CC: 
           Robert R Black ?.3365@compuserve.com>,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" ,
           "[unknown]" 
 References: 
           1



Gordon married Angela after Ernest passed
away.  He and his families live in
Draper.

Cheers,
JSW

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert R Black
?.3365@compuserve.com>
To: Ken Shaw 
Cc: Robert R Black
?.3365@compuserve.com> [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]
 [unknown]

Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 2:33 AM
Subject: FYI-Fundy stuff


> Message text written by Ken Shaw
> >I've got through alot of changes since
those Grandpa's Books days, but
> those
> experiences have shaped my life
forever.  Of all the explanations of what
> the real nature of "Mormonism" is, the
Rhea Kunz/Ernest Strack
> interpretation
> still stands up as the strongest and
most logically consistant.<
>
> Guess where Ernest got his stuff.  My
library. I used to run the Mormon
> Underground Press. Do you know what
happened to Gordon or Lynn?
>
> Robert.
>




Subject: 
        Re: "Universal Sufism"
   Date: 
        Fri, 21 May 1999 13:02:25 -0500 (CDT)
  From: 
        kshaw@dalsemi.com (Ken Shaw)
     To: 
        MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
        timquick@cwnet.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, jswick@cris.com, kathleen@enol.com,
        shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
        Neoptolmus@aol.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
        proclus@mac.com, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
        74277.3365@compuserve.com, rpcman@hotmail.com,
        kshaw@dalsemi.com




Ken,

Yasher koiach!

Yankel

Ken Shaw wrote:
>
> Yakov,
>
> The more I learn the more impressed I am with the reliability
> of the Biblical record.  I was led to this point by my wondering
> who Melchezedik was and why Abraham payed tithes to him.  This implies
> the existence of a universal "Noachide" tradition that is the diffusion
> point of all religions both east and west.  The Talmud identifies
> Melchezedik as Shem, the son of Noah, who establish a "Yeshiva" to
> transmit the antedeluvian science to the post-flood world.
>
> Ken Shaw
> >
> > Ken --
> >
> > Thanks. What I'd like to do is wait until you've subscribed to the
> > Donmeh to post your review so that if it stimulates any discussion,
> > you'll be there to join it.
> >
> > Incidently, I particularly like what you have to say about Moses and
> > Jethro, and hope you'll bring that perspective to our discussions. It's
> > interesting, don't you think, that the Midianites were descended from
> > Midian, one of the sons of Ketura by Abraham, to whom the latter gave
> > "pngts" (Talmud = esoteric knowledge) and sent off as missionaries for
> > his new religion of El Shaddi to the "East countries." (Gen. 25:1-6)
> >
> > Kol tuv,
> >
> > Yakov Leib haKohain, Ph.D.
> > Personal Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Yakov.htm
> > Donmeh Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Donmeh.htm
> > Donmeh Index http://members.xoom.com/donmeh/
> >
> >
> > Ken Shaw wrote:
> > >
> > > Yakov,
> > >
> > > Please feel free to use the review in anyway you wish.
> > >
> > > I'll get myself subscribed to the Donmeh list, thanks for
> > > the heads-up.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > > >
> > > > Ken --
> > > >
> > > > This is really a good review. Would you mind if I forward it to my own
> > > > list, The Donmeh of the Internet? We're a virtual community of over 300
> > > > scholars and students of the relationship between Jewish and Islamic
> > > > mysticism, particularly as configured by the 17th century Jewish mystic
> > > > Sabbatai Zevi and his chief exegete, Nathan of Gaza.
> > > >
> > > > You might want to check out the Donmeh for yourself. We have many
> > > > members who are Sufis, including a large number of Ismailis, members of
> > > > the Donmeh in Turkey, and even one Orthodox Jewish man in Israel who is
> > > > working there for peace between Muslims and Jews through their common
> > > > mystical practices.
> > > >
> > > > Raising up the Holy Sparks together,
> > > >
> > > > Yakov Leib haKohain, Ph.D.
> > > >
> > > > Personal Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Yakov.htm
> > > > Donmeh Webpage http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Kabbalah/Donmeh.htm
> > > > Donmeh Index http://members.xoom.com/donmeh/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ken Shaw wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >                               Partial review of
> > > > >
> > > > >                              "Universal Sufism"
> > > > >
> > > > >                                      by
> > > > >
> > > > >                               Dr. H. J. Witteveen
> > > > >
> > > > > The author of "Universal Sufism", Dr. H. J. Witteveen, grew up in a
> > > > > family that was deeply involved with the work of Hazrat Inayat Khan,
> > > > > an Indian classical musician and Sufi who attempted to introduce
> > > > > Sufism into the West in the first years of this century.
> > > > >
> > > > > The pupose of the book is to present an introduction and overview of
> > > > > both Sufism and the life and work of Hazrat Inayat Khan.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chapter One:  The History and Origin of Sufism
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Witteveen takes the position that Sufism is a living continuation
> > > > > of the religious tradition of Ancient Egypt, especially the tradition
> > > > > of Toth-Hermes who became known as Hermes Trismegistus in Hellenistic
> > > > > times.  He sees Dhul-Nun al-Misti as the connecting link between Islamic
> > > > > Sufism and the Hermetic tradition of Hellenistic Egypt.  He quotes
> > > > > Hazrat Inayat Khan as saying that Abraham built the Kaaba after his
> > > > > time in Egypt, and that Abraham concentrated his inner force into the
> > > > > Black Stone of the Kaaba as a memorial of the training he had recieved
> > > > > in Egypt.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dhul-Nun is of special interest to people in the West because he is the
> > > > > founder of the Sufi school called "The Builders" which was the inspiration
> > > > > of the Masonic Lodges of Europe.  Dhul-Nun is said to have learned to read
> > > > > the Egyptian Hieroglyphs by means of the special insight he devolped by the
> > > > > diciplines of the Path.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Witteveen sees the next key figure in the development of Sufism to be
> > > > > in Persia by Shihabuddin Yahya al-Suhrawardi.  Suhrawardi worked out a
Zoroastrianism,
> > > > > Neoplatonism and Buddhism.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Witteveen notes the importance of Moses and Jesus in Persian Sufism,
> > > > > Moses being mentioned as often as Krishna is in Hinduism.  He sees the
> > > > > Jesus as the main influence on the next key figure in the development of
> > > > > Sufism, Mansur al-Hallaj.  Al-Hallaj proclaimed the "Sufi Secret" openly
> > > > > in public, and it cost him his life.  He understood what Jesus meant when
> > > > > He said "whoever has seen Me has seen the Father" and "the Father and I are
> > > > > one".  Sufism understands "The Father" to be "The-Whole-of-Existence-Itself"
> > > > > which is a single living being.  In this view, "God" is the only "Being" that
> > > > > exists at all, and the various orders of "individual" organisms are like minute
> > > > > "reflections" of that Absolute Self in the ripples of Space-Time.  Each one
> > > > > of us is like a "Holographic Projection" of that One Self, our experience of
> > > > > "seperatness" coming from our identification with the electro-chemical organic
> > > > > machine which is picking up our conciousness like a radio station.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jesus followed a Path that allowed Him to "Realize the Self" and awaken to
> > > > > His true identity, the One Absolute Self who is God.  It was like a person
> > > > > in a dream realizing that he is in a dream and becoming fully conscious in
> > > > > that dream.  He is both the "dreamer" of the dream and one of the characters
> > > > > in the dream, but he realizes the truth of both the "waking world" and the
> > > > > "dreaming world" he is in.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first followers of Jesus refered to what they were doing as "The Way",
> > > > > and they understood "the Way" to be a tradition of "inner development" that
> > > > > went back to the begining of man's presence on Earth.  The Sufis believe
> > > > > that they are following this very same Way.  Al-Hallaj began to announce
> > > > > his own awakening to his friends in no uncertain terms when he said to them:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Ana' al Haqq" -- "I Am The Truth"
> > > > >
> > > > > The word got out that Al-Hallaj was proclaiming that he was God, and the
> > > > > orthodox religious authorities of Baghdad had him arrested.  He was eventualy
> > > > > crucified and dismembered for his "crime", but his passion changed the course
permanent
> > > > > feature of Islamic life.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Witteveen points out that later Beyazid Bastami was able to proclaim
> > > > > "Glory to Me" and come to no harm, because Al-Hallaj had forced Islamic
> > > > > civilization to come to terms with the paradoxes of mystical realization.
> > > > >
> > > > > He points out the importance of the city of Balkh in Turkistan for its
> > > > > ancient connections to Buddhism and Yoga from India.  Balkh is the birthplace
> > > > > of "sober" Sufism which places more emphasis on silent concentration and
> > > > > psychological insight than on the more outwardly "religious" forms of devotion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Witteveen finishes this chapter with the introduction of Sufism into
> > > > > India, where it began to bridge the gulf between Islam and Hinduism and
> > > > > heal some of the deep wounds that seperated the two communities.  The Hindu
> > > > > sages and yogis could see eye-to-eye with the Sufis and embrace them as
> > > > > brethren, and the tombs of Sufi saints are revered as much by Hindus as they
> > > > > are by Muslims in India.
> > > > >
> > > > > My only real problem with this brief overview of Sufi history is that it
> > > > > never mentions Muhammed or the tradition that has survived among the Arabs
> > > > > since the days of Abraham.  Moses went to Jethro, "Priest of the Midianites"
> > > > > in the Arabian desert to find shelter and a new direction for his life.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Midianites were a fierce Bedouin people who had lived in the Arabian
> > > > > peninsula since the time of Abraham their father.  They lived in deep
> > > > > devotion to the God of their father Abraham, "Yahu Saboath" (Yahu of Warriors),
> > > > > and it was while with Jethro that Moses met the God of Abraham who called
> > > > > Himself "Yahue" (Eternal) and "Hayah" (I Am).  The Midianite Arabs had kept
> > > > > the living contact with the God a Abraham alive, and it was from them that
> > > > > Moses got the key to his own Prophetic mission.  There is a whole story to
> > > > > be learned about how Jethro came to Moses and the Israelites after the Exodus
> > > > > and taught Moses how to be a tribal Chief.  The decendants of Jethro accompanied
> > > > > the Camp of Israel from then on and kept alive thier secret tribal 
> > > > >
> > > > > These decendants of Jethro where later known as the Rechabites in the Land
> > > > > of Israel, where they kept alive their ancient Abrahamic Bedouine lifestyle,
> > > > > never touching wine or cutting their hair or beards.  It was from them that
> > > > > the tradition of the "Nazarite" came, which came from the word "Netzerim"
> > > > > which means "Keepers of Secrets".  The decendants of Jethro, the Rechabites,
> > > > > where the "Keepers of Secrets" that kept the ancient Abrahamic mysteries
> > > > > alive and functioning until the coming of Jesus and his brother James the Just.
> > > > >
> > > > > So Sufism ISN'T just an amalgam of various streams of esotericism from
> > > > > Egypt to India, it is the true core of the whole Biblical tradition that
> > > > > comes down from Adam to Seth to Enoch to Noah to Melchezidek to Abraham to
> > > > > Moses to Jesus to Muhammed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kenneth Shaw









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