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Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Conferral
Date:
Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:30:50 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
proclus ,
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
onandagus@webtv.net,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
References:
1
___Proclus___
Congrats Joe. We have previously discussed Royal Arch at length, and I
think that it is safe to say that there would be no Mormonism as we know it
without Royal Arch. It is all in the archives for anyone who cares to read
it. If this means that the innermost rituals of Mormonism take their
origins from Luciferian roots, then sobeit. If we must bear the light, let
us bear it well.
As far as I am concerned, our masonic brothers will always be welcome in
this circle of ours.
-----
You are very considerate. I have not been treated as kindly elsewhere. As
for the Satanic nature of the Holy Royal Arch -- you'd have to squeeze the
thing pretty hard and look at it all squinty-eyed before you could see the
Devil in it. For goodness sakes, it's based upon a biblical story.
___Proclus___
Now a word about that beguiling forward button. It is easy for me to see
why someone would be bothered by their messages being forwarded without
their knowledge. My wife gets bothered, if I even mention her online. If I
forward her messages, I get the couch for the night!
-----
As a general rule, I am careful to keep the confidences reposed in me.
However, I felt Todd abused our relationship. Based upon the closed mail in
this group, he chose to send personally insulting mail, essentially accusing
me of belonging to a Luciferian religion, and of being at best the unwitting
dupe of Satan, and more likely the knowing participant in a murderous Secret
Combination.
Don Bradley and Ken Shaw will recall that this is not the first time I have
had a "problem" with Todd and his friends. He and John Wrede (aka Jahnihah)
made much public noise on Mahonri-L about my vassalage to the Lord of
Darkness, and how I was in cahoots with certain bad reptilian aliens who
crawled under the streets of SLC and Provo.
Given our past history, I cannot imagine what possible good he expected
would come from such privately-posted insults. It seems that posting widely
to the entire circle is far more productive, although --I confess-- as a
matter of good form, I should have told Todd that I was going to do this.
My apologies to Todd if he was offended by this in any way.
___Proclus___
On the other hand, I consider this group not only as a discussion group,
but as an intimate circle of initiates. I feel that we should freely bring
in the peripheral issues, so that they can be examined in the
light of perfect love and perfect trust.
-----
I have no bitter feelings towards Todd. He should feel free to raise
whatever points he wishes in support of his proposition that Freemasons are
a secret Luciferian cabal controlling the world through murder and secret
political machinations. As has been pointed out to him in the past, his
views share territory with the virulent anti-Semitic, anti-Masonic
"Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion." However, sometimes these topics
need a little air; I'm happy to have a no-flames discussion if he is game.
___Proclus___
We can handle this deep examination. No one here is a child that shrinks
from the probing light of the all-seeing eye.
-----
Indeed. In fact, there is comfort in the fact that God sees all, and judges
justly. As we often sing on a Sunday, "beneath His watchful eye, His Saints
securely dwell." I have no fears, for --whether we are discussing Masonry
or Mormonism-- I have done all out of the integrity of my heart. I doubt
not that the God of Heaven sees my acts in light of my intentions, and will
ever judge me right.
Speaking frankly, my choice to become a Freemason was one of the BEST
decisions socially that I have ever made. Masonry is not a religion, but
that does not mean that its teachings are trivial or cheap. Art will
understand why the 32° was perhaps a teensy bit more meaningful to me as a
Latter-day Saint than it is for others. In fact, the apex of that degree and
what it represented was personally significant for me in ways that no
unEndowed person is likely to appreciate. As a hint of what I am talking
about, Rex Hutchens explains briefly what it means to be a Sublime Prince of
the Royal Secret, in the following words:
"To become both a priest and a king, like all those who before have been
entrusted with the Holy Doctrine and the Royal Secret, is to learn to
exercise dominion over ourselves with wisdom. The priest is a symbol of
divine wisdom, and the king, of divine sovereignty" (Hutchens, Bridge to
Light, 320-321).
And,
"To be a soldier of True Religion is to recognize the corruption of the true
religion given to man. Thus, we must combat, with reason and truth, all
spiritual tyrrany over the souls and consciences of men. Finally, we war
against all who would, with superstition, bigotry and fanaticism, prescribe
what men may believe" (Ibid, 321).
I believe these words with all my heart, and if this is Masonic "doctrine,"
then I am its glad and willing Apostle! Contrary to what Todd would have you
believe, these are typical and representative of the noble and pure
sentiments taught by Masonry in its "highest" degrees.
__Robert__
How about shareing the article with us?
___Proclus___
I second that. Is it available online?
-----
The article was published in volume 2 of Heredom, the 1992 transactions of
The Scottish Rite Research Society. It contains numerous graphics. I
personally have not scanned the article, and I am not familiar with where
on the 'net you might be able to locate it. Perhaps Art would be able to
help with this.
___Todd J. Jumper___
even if I supply you all the evidence will it change your views on your
decisions to join in such high degrees of a Luciferian religion?
___Proclus___
Pass me a cup of that old time religion. Let us sprinkle the world. How
can we apprehend the white without knowing purple. The Illuminati is me and
my friends.
-----
I believe with the late Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite,
Henry Clausen, that:
"There is in Christ's gospel a rapport with many religions: Christianity,
Buddhism, Islam, Confucianism, Judaism, Brahmanism and others. They
originally arose from man's early fears of nature's forces. Gradual progress
was made to higher and more mature concepts of freedom, a release from
fear. Hence, there is an ultimate unanimity of belief that the great cause
is the one God; that man partakes of divinity in that God dwells within him;
that this accounts for his inner knowledge of right and wrong, and that this
spark of the Divine can be developed into a living and eternal flame."
Just gimme that Old Time Religion! I also believe with Albert Pike:
Our little systems have their day;
They have their day and cease to be:
They are but broken lights of Thee,
And Thou, O Lord, art more than they.
--- Magnum Opus, XIV°
___Joe Swick___
He also openly discusses the charges of Masonry being a "Luciferian
organization," in detail for all who care to read. This is posted here and
there on the 'net, and I have simply chosen the one that came up in my
search. Once the document has loaded, simply search for "lucifer."
___Proclus___
Search for Lucifer? Funny funny, Joe!
-----
Yeah, well. I do my best. I'll tell you what's REALLY funny: I live in
KENT (LIGHT), and my Lodge is VERITY (TRUTH). ROTFL! You'd almost
suspect
that I planned it that way.
___Proclus___
Here's the problem. I skimmed Morals and Dogma on my mission. I was in
Milford, Pennsylvania, which is Pike's home town or something. Lots of
stuff is named after him there. It was a really ancient copy of the book
=). I seem to remember that the Luciferian stuff IS in Pikes book. I could
be wrong about that, I suppose. It has been a few years ;-}. Pike also has
those wonderful quotes about Sirius in there.
-----
An extract from a previous conversation I had on this topic. I include this
because I give page numbers. I will later pass along the entire post for
your reading pleasure:
----------------------------------------------
___KIP___
It is obvious that you didn't read 'Moral and Dogma'. Albert Pike wrote in
his book that Freemasons worship lucifer and that it IS a religion.
-----
Actually, I HAVE read Morals and Dogma. References to Lucifer are found on
pages: 73, 102, 321 and 324. He is alluded to in the 32nd Degree, where he
is discussed on pages 844, 845 and 860. If I am not mistaken, these are the
ONLY references to Lucifer in Morals and Dogma. None of them state that
Masons worship Lucifer.
As for Pike referring to Masonry as a "religion." He does, in several
places, the most oft-quoted appearing on page 213:
"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are
instructions in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness,
affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy
with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring,
relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here we meet as
brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other
gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's
feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion
revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many
centuries."
It is clear that Pike is not talking about doctrines of salvation. Rather,
he is using this word in the same way Americans occasionally discuss the
"Constitution" as the document of a secular religion, with Public Virtue
being its guiding ethic. That this is so is demonstrated elsewhere in this
same section. Pike similarly discusses the "religion of toil" (212), and the
religion of society (213). Concerning these, he states:
"Men may be virtuous, self-improving, and religious in their employments.
Precisely for that, those employments were made. All their social relations,
friendship, love, and ties of family, were made to be holy. They may be
religious...by conformity to their true spirit. Those vocations do not
exclude religion; but demand it, for their own perfection. They may be
religious laborers, whether in field or factory; religious physicians,
lawyers, sculptors, poets, painters, and musicians. They may be religious
in all the toils and amusements of life. Their life may be a religion; the
broad earth its altar; its incense the very breath of life; its fires ever
kindled by the brightness of Heaven" (214-15).
Certainly in the passage above, Pike is not using the word "religion" to
refer to an institution with salvific doctrine and ordinances, and he
certainly nowhere implies that Masonry is salvific.
----------------------------------------------
I hope this posting has been informative. All reasonable/sane comments and
questions welcome!
Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III, Illuminated Master
"Serving the Reptilian Overlords Since 1994"
-----
"It is but a few hundred years since a new Truth began to be distinctly
seen; that MAN IS SUPREME OVER INSTITUTIONS, AND NOT THEY OVER
HIM. Man has
*natural* empire over *all* institutions. They are for him, according to
his development; not he for them. This seems to us a very simple statement,
one to which all men, everywhere, ought to assent. But once it was a great
new Truth.... Once revealed, it imposed new duties on men. Man owed it to
*himself* to be free. . . It made Tyranny and Usurpation the enemies of the
Human Race. It created a general outlawry of Despots and Despotisms,
temporal and spiritual....this Truth had the Omnipotence of God on its side;
and ... neither Pope nor Potentate could overcome it" (Pike, Morals and
Dogma, 23-4, emphases in original).
"Do not lose sight...of the true object of your studies.... It is to add to
your estate of wisdom, and not merely to your knowledge. A man may spend a
lifetime in studying a single specialty of knowledge...and yet be no wiser
than when he began. It is the great truths . . . that most concerns a man,
as to his rights, interests, and duties....The wiser a man becomes, the less
he will be inclined to submit to the imposition of fetters or a yoke, on his
conscience or on his person. For, by increase in wisdom he not only better
*knows* his rights, but the more highly *values* them, and is more conscious
of his worth and dignity. His pride then urges him to assert his
independence. He becomes better *able* to assert it also; and better able
to assist others . . . when they . . . stake all, even existence, upon the
same assertion. But mere knowledge makes no one independent, nor fits him
to be free. It often only makes him a more useful slave. Liberty is a curse
to the ignorant and brutal" (Pike, Morals and Dogma, 26, emphases in
original).
"A man's Faith is as much his own as his Reason is. His Freedom consists as
much in his faith being free as in his will being uncontrolled by
power.....No man or body of men *can* be infallible, and authorized to
decide what other men shall believe, as to any tenet of faith. Except to
those who first receive it, every religion and truth of all inspired
writings depend on *human* testimony and internal evidences, to be judged of
by Reason and the wise analogies of Faith. Each man must necessarily have
the right to judge of their truth for himself; because no one man can have
any higher or better right to judge another of equal information and
intelligence" (Pike, MD 29).
"If Priesthoods still govern, they now come before the laity to prove, by
stress of argument, that they *ought* to govern" (MD 94).
Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Conferral
Date:
Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:31:01 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org,
kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net,
rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com
References:
1
A little background reading if you are interested. One of my postings
archived on DEJA.COM. -- JSW
Date: 1998/11/21
Author: Joe Steve Swick III
___KIP____
Freemasons worship Lucifer.
___JSW__
Oh, PUH-LEEEEZE! I imagine that some members of the Local PTA or Boy Scouts
worship Lucifer, too, but that is not the concern of the PTA or the Scouts.
As Freemasonry is a FRATERNITY and clearly not a religion (as has been
proven in more than one court of law) and does not meet the requirements of
a religion, it is flatly not proper to discuss "the Masonic God" or "the
Masonic religion," and absolutely not proper to discuss "Masonic Worship."
___KIP___
England recognizes Freemasonry is not "just a fraternity". -----
You are flipping issues. In England, it is well understood that Freemasonry
is a FRATERNITY and not a religion, your twisting above notwithstanding.
___KIP___
If the plaintiff or the defendant is a Freemason, The judge cannot be a
Freemason . Any one can go to a court room and see exchanges of masonic
tokens between judges and lawyers, lawyers and the opposing side and from
the plaintiff and members of the jury and vice versa.
-----
As for whether or not "anyone can go to a court room and see exchanges of
masonic tokens," I can't imagine you have this on anything but hearsay.
That the government would require disclosure of Masonic affiliation is
OUTRAGEOUS, and you know it. Tyrranny takes many faces, and none is so bad
as the tyrrany which is sanctioned by the state, under the pretense of law.
I personally don't care who knows that I'm a Freemason, or a Mormon, or
anything else about me. However, in the United States, laws must pass
certain tests in order to be Constitutional. Laws which make specific
reference to persons, places or things usually fail to pass the test of
Generality, and are considered unConstitutional. If the law were
impartial -- and all judges/elected officials had to make full disclosure of
ALL public and private affiliations, that would be a step toward meeting the
requirement of Generality. If no Anglican or Methodist judge could rule in a
case where the plaintiff or defendant were Anglicans or Methodists, and so
forth, that would be closer to the mark. My guess is that this is not the
case.
I must say, that while I personally don't care who knows I am a Freemason,
we Americans are generally uncomfortable with the idea of having to report
our personal activities to the Government. It sounds rather...fascist. There
is a vast difference between me choosing to wear a square and compasses pin
on my lapel, and the Government forcing me to wear one eh. Some German
fellow a few years back took that approach with his critics as well. Made
them easier to round up.
Of course, I believe that in any case where there is a conflict of
interests, a judge has a responsibility to excuse him/herself. To be quite
frank, if I were a Freemason guilty of a crime and I knew the judge were a
Freemason, I sure as HELL wouldn't wish him to know it... because my
obligations bind me to uphold the law of the land. If the judge suspected I
was guilty and knew that I was a Freemason, I would fully expect him to
"throw the book at me." That he knew my affiliation would merely add to the
shame, because it would be a smear on my honor, and a stain on my character
in light of my obligation.
___KIP___
I've seen it not only with the masons but other secret societies as well.
-----
Have you now. I didn't know that Masons were a secret society. If they have
to register in England, that doesn't sound very "secret" at all. I also
don't know but that in the States at least, Masons are usually known to be
such, stated meetings are advertised in the papers, the location of lodges
may be found in any telephone directory, and --outside of initiations and
Lodge business-- Masons make no secret of their activities.
___KIP___
'The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry' by Manly Palmer Hall 33rd degree Freemason
"When The Mason learns that the Key to the warrior on the block is the
proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the Mystery
of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before
he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply
this energy." page 48
___JSW____
Point ONE: I have this book. I purchased it precisely because of the
argument Christian Fundamentalists made about it-- I had to seem for myself.
I would be quite happy to admit if it demonstrated that ANYONE worshipped
Lucifer, but the fact is, you are grossly misreading the passage. In the
sentence directly following the one you quote, Hall also states how
Freemasons must be like Tubal-Cain, who, "with the mighty strength of the
war-god hammered his sword into a plowshare." Hall is speaking in simile and
metaphor, but this is apparently lost on you. In context, the point he makes
is that we must come to control our desires, and use their powers for good
rather than for evil and destruction.
___KIP___
Limp wristed pseudo-intellectuals think that communism is a good thing, the
Masons also see communism as a good thing. Looking at a bad thing in a good
way DOES NOT MAKE IT GOOD!
-----
First, your comment has nothing to do with Manly Hall's quote. You have
terribly misread him, and my honest opinion is that you likely only know the
quote from some Anti-Masonic book. The alternative is to believe that you
purposly lied.
As for Masons seeing communism as a "good thing." If it matters to you, I
am quite far from the political left, Kip. I have absolutely NO IDEA what
the political affiliation of most Freemasons is, but given that the ranks of
American Freemasons have included such include such folks as Bob Dole,
Herbert Hoover, Gerald Ford, and numerous other "right-leaning" leaders. My
assumption is that these folks are not likely to think much of communism.
___JSW___
the "seething powers of Lucifer" is a reference to the knowledge which each
human holds and which s/he commonly uses to hurt and destroy, which impulse
must be overcome and turned for good.
----
___KIP___
Masons believe that lucifer freed adam and eve from the tyranny of God. A
satanic lie.
-----
WHICH MASONS teach this, and where? I know many, many Freemasons, and I
don't know a single one who believes this.
___JSW___
Masonry is just as likely to have Rabbis and Bishops, Muslims and Mormons
among its number as it is mystics like Hall.
___KIP___
They don't care who joins as long as they can trick you in to believing
lucifer as their master.
-----
Baseless ranting. Show your evidence.
___KIP__
It's not just "sovereign grand commander" Albert Pike who states that
Freemasons worship lucifer.
-----
Aside from your patently bogus quote, show me ANYWHERE where Pike states
that Freemasons worship Lucifer. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that
he did -- not on me to prove that he did not. Of course, you cannot, because
Pike never taught such a thing.
___KIP___
the 33rd degree Freemason's motto is "ORDO AB CHAO" a luciferian term.
-----
The term ORDO AB CHAO is an invention of the Scottish Rite, and is indeed
the motto of the 33rd Degree. It means "order out of chaos." According to
Mackey, its first recorded use was on a patent issued in February of 1802.
The meaning of the term is similar to LUX E TENEBRIS -- "light out of
darkness," as noted by both Mackey and Coil. Both of these mottos (ORDO AB
CHAO and LUX E TENEBRIS) bring to mind Genesis 1:1-3, where it reads:
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the EARTH WAS
WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And
the
Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be
light: and there was light."
God then proceeds to bring forth life on the earth. This is my
understanding of these mottos and their meanings.
___KIP___
That means ORDER OUT OF CHAOS. Lucifer uses chaos to bring order. Chaos is
used by those attempting to control. They create the chaos and then bring in
tyrannical order to save us from the chaos. Side note: Lucifer is also known
as the Author of Confusion.
-----
The connection with these mottos with Genesis 1:1-3 is evident. If you are
going to make a special pleading that they have to do with Lucifer, you'll
have to do better than this.
___KIP___
It is obvious that you didn't read 'Moral and Dogma'. Albert Pike wrote in
his book that Freemasons worship lucifer and that it IS a religion.
-----
Actually, I HAVE read Morals and Dogma. References to Lucifer are found on
pages: 73, 102, 321 and 324. He is alluded to in the 32nd Degree, where he
is discussed on pages 844, 845 and 860. If I am not mistaken, these are the
ONLY references to Lucifer in Morals and Dogma. None of them state that
Masons worship Lucifer.
As for Pike referring to Masonry as a "religion." He does, in several
places, the most often appearing on page 213:
"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are
instructions in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness,
affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy
with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring,
relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here we meet as
brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other
gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's
feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion
revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many
centuries."
It is clear that Pike is not talking about doctrines of salvation. Rather,
he is using this word in the same way Americans occasionally discuss the
"Constitution" as the document of a secular religion, with Public Virtue
being its guiding ethic. That this is so is demonstrated elsewhere in this
same section. Pike similarly discusses the "religion of toil" (212), and the
religion of society (213). Concerning these, he states:
"Men may be virtuous, self-improving, and religious in their employments.
Precisely for that, those employments were made. All their social relations,
friendship, love, and ties of family, were made to be holy. They may be
religious...by conformity to their true spirit. Those vocations do not
exclude religion; but demand it, for their own perfection. They may be
religious laborers, whether in field or factory; religious physicians,
lawyers, sculptors, poets, painters, and musicians. They may be religious
in all the toils and amusements of life. Their life may be a religion; the
broad earth its altar; its incense the very breath of life; its fires ever
kindled by the brightness of Heaven" (214-15).
Certainly in the passage above, Pike is not using the word "religion" to
refer to an institution with salvific doctrine and ordinances, and he
certainly nowhere implies that Masonry is salvific.
___KIP___
You say "I don't believe that. I've never heard anything about this at my
lodge!"
___JSW___
Yes, and as I am a 32° Scottish Rite Freemason, according to the "Pike
Quote" you give above, if there were any Lucifer worship involved, I should
be "in the know." Maybe I AM in the know, and I'm lying about this. Or
maybe since Pike's day, they have moved the Satanic worship up, so that only
33° Masons (it is an honorary degree) know and are involved. Frankly, I am
familiar with the 33rd Degee working, and nary a word about Satan in the
entire thing. Maybe they save the "Big Secret" for the conversation with
the refreshments following the degree proper?
___KIP___
"maybe *I AM*(wink wink) in the know, and I'm lying about this" you ARE
lying.
-----
You are a certifiable rascal. No, I'm not lying at all, and I don't
appreciate being called a liar by fanatical scoundrels like yourself. There
is no Lucifer worship in Masonry in anything but your imagination.
___KIP___
would you care to explain what I AM means to the Freemasons??? If you don't
I will.
-----
Perfectly happy to. In his discussion of the 32° Pike identifies I AM as
the God of Moses:
"I AM, God said to Moses, that which Is, Was and Shall forever Be. . . .
[Yod-He-Vav-He] is the Name of the Deity manifested in a single act, that of
Creation, and containing within Himself, in idea and actuality, the whole
Universe." (849)
Did you have something else in mind, Kip?
___KIP___
I had a neighbor who was a 32 degree Freemason,
-----
Ah! Now comes a charming anecdote.
___KIP___
He asked me one day "do you want to know who rules the world?" he then
pointed to his Masonic ring. He knew all about the masonic plan. We talked
about it for a couple hours.
-----
If your mails are any indication of your normal state, If I were him, I
would have told you we rode black goats and spanked initiates with the
Devils Special Paddle. As I said, it never pays to argue with a COWAN, so
you just fun with 'em and smile. I would do the same, except your lies are
being spread hither and yon over the internet. I wish to make sure that
everyone sees what a cowan you really are, and let them judge the weight of
your argument against my own.
___KIP___
Even George Washington understood the darkside of freemasonry. [The
Writings of George Washington from the Original Manuscript Sources,
1745-1799. John C. Fitzpatrick, Editor.--vol. 36 Mount Vernon, September 25,
1798].
___JSW___
Did he, now? Washington was a Freemason, "true blue" through and through. I
suppose you wish to argue that he worshipped Lucifer as well? I wonder if
any mention was made of Lucifer at Bro.'. Washington's Masonic funeral? For,
Washington lived, died and was buried a Freemason.
___KIP___
The Writings of George Washington from the Original Manuscript Sources,
1745-1799. John C. Fitzpatrick, Editor.--vol. 36
Mount Vernon, October 24, 1798.
Revd Sir: I have your favor of the 17th. instant before me; and my only
motive to trouble you with the receipt of this letter, is to explain, and
correct a mistake which I perceive the hurry in which I am obliged, often,
to write letters, have led you into.
It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and
principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the
contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am...
-----
Yes, Washington disapproved of Illuminism. Apart from some idiots in the
Grand Orient of France, so did everyone else. However, Illuminism was NOT
Satanism -- it's distasteful aspects (Jacobinism, for instance)
notwithstanding.
Regards,
JSW
Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Conferral
Date:
Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:26:01 -0400
From:
Enoch Shemna
To:
Joe Steve Swick III
CC:
jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net,
rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com,
RAZZ2017@aol.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6
> I am more than happy to discuss any relevant facts you care to present.
>
> ___Todd J. Jumper___
> I have several videos and documents which I can in free time dub off for
you
> but knowing your character and your disbelief
The videos I am refering to can be found at
http://www.freeworldalliance.com/videos.htm
> scripture), Masonry is NOT a religion in the generally accepted meaning of
I should just stop now because speaking the truth of things to you is like
yelling at a brick wall which just echos my voice and yells back at me. I am
not insulting or name calling but if you want to take it as such then go
right ahead. I am only trying to show why I say the things I say and not
cause a fight. I have run into just as many people who were masons and
worked for the government who admitted it was a religion and luciferian and
left, just as many people have shown me proof of this as you show all the
proof of the goodness therein and testify of how much it has been a good
choice in your life. Whatsoever is good cometh from God, whatsoever is evil
cometh from the devil therefore by this shall ye judge. As usual you take
your pompous and extremely prideful attitude and make it into a big ruckus
from a personal email. Your intention is not to prove your argument but do
all you can to get others on your side to make the messanger look like a
fool and an uninspired accuser and trouble maker in hope that they will
either be banned or leave the list. Like I said I am only going to supply
what I h ave and that will be the end of it, the rest of you can make your
own choice from their on.
> I should mention that Masonry was initially and fundamentally a Christian
> institution, and those who choose to receive the degrees of York Rite
> Masonry DO take an oath to defend the Christian religion.
So does Clinton while at the same time murders everyone in WACO.
> Each of these claims must be evaluated carefully, as must the characters
who
Evaluate them yourself with the videos. As for other documents they will be
post as time provides at www.freeworldalliance.com
> Carlson, John Ankerberg, William Whalen and other such scroungers as your
> friend relies upon for his "evidence." Unlike your scrounger friend, who
is
I didn't call names or insult your friends.
> As for the claim that your friend can demonstrate that Masonry is
> "Luciferian," I would wonder what that might mean. Does he have evidence
> that the leaders of some Masonic bodies regularly meet with the Lord of
> Darkness himself, say, promptly at 4:00 pm every Thursday, for
consultation
> on the next step in their Great and Illuminated Conspiracy to make all of
> mankind the ignorant but willing dupes of the Devil?
They are going to meet on New Year Eve 2000 at the great giza pyramid in
Egypt and bring in the New World Order, where some say Lucifer himself will
appear.
> I don't suppose that you will come upon "many" such quotes. If rather
> suspect you are referring to the well-known hoax of Leo Taxil, in which he
> attributes to Albert Pike words which he never said, in an attempt to
> embarrass the Catholic Church, and make a few dollars while he was at it.
> You may read Jim Tresner's article at:
The quotes are to be found on the videos.
> And your evidence that I don't listen to the promptings of the Lord about
> it, are that I disagree with you. This is precisely why it is not
> productive to discuss the "Lord" and the "Devil" at this point. It
becomes
> little more than spiritual chest-puffing, and is not helpful at arriving
at
> the facts.
Spiritual chest puffing? Oh well if you see it that way then that is what
you do. What you see in others is what you hate in yourself.
> On the contrary. It is because my experiences in the past lead me to
believe
> that God and the Devil are often called upon to legitimize what cannot be
> legitimized in any other way. At this point in our discussion, denouncing
> Masonry as "Satanic" or "Luciferian" amounts to little more than
> name-calling. Appeals to God similarly may be used to validate what the
> evidence cannot support.
You take insults or namecalling because that is the way you choose to take
it. I have done neither nor was it my intention.
> As I have said, while you are free to receive your own revelation to
guide
> your own behavior, I wouldn't expect that to guide the behavior of others,
> unless they trust your prophetic insight -- or unless you provide real
> "evidence" in which folks may place their faith.
Always asking for a sign, proof, evidence. All things will be proven in due
time, and there will be gnashing of teeth.
> ___Todd J. Jumper___
> I will not leave the Lord out of any discussion because I am with him and
> he is with me, if you want the Lord out of things then you should not any
> longer speak with me because then you will have no part of me
> as well.
> -----
>
> This is a shuck and jive, Todd. Present your evidence, and I fully
suspect
> that I will hear nothing that hasn't circulated through the anti-Masonry
> mill for many years. With, of course, the sole exception of your personal
> revelation (unsupported by even the slimmest of facts) that Willard
Richards
> shot Joseph Smith as a part of a greater Masonic conspiracy against the
> Prophet.
It's supported many times in church history you just choose to ignore them.
Brigham Young actually told Willard to alter the records concerning the
martydom a couple times and this can be found. I am not out to seek for
physical evidence that this event occured. I was there. I saw it happen.
How can I prove an event that happened in 1844, I can barely prove to you
what I do in my daily life. An adulterous nation seeketh a sign. Always
looking outward are you. All of this information is accesible to anyone.
Go within, go to God and get access to the hall of records for yourself
instead of seeking with your eyes for the eyes will deceive you.
> THE ILLUMINATI DO NOT EXIST. REALLY. This message brought to you by
the
> Illuminati.
This may seem as a joke to others. But to me I take it as deadly serious.
There are lies all about and soon shall they be brought forth into the
light.
Enoch
ject:
Happy Solstice
Date:
Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:10:24 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man ,
Ken Shaw ,
Enoch Shemna
Know the mystery of the unbroken circle.
Have a beautiful day!
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/home.html
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w---
!O M++
V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G e++>++++ h---
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Re: The Great Illuminated Handbasket
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:35:23 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
"Robert R. Black" , ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
enoch144@eagle-net.org, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3
___JSW___
Yes, Washington disapproved of Illuminism. Apart from some idiots in the
Grand Orient of France, so did everyone else. However, Illuminism was NOT
Satanism -- it's distasteful aspects (Jacobinism, for instance)
notwithstanding.
___Robert___
I thought that Washington WAS an Illuminist. Where did he disapprove of
Illuminism.
-----
Okay, okay, you've pushed me in the corner, and so I'm gonna spill the
beans: the truth is Washington WASN'T opposed to Illuminism, because the
Illuminati had the REAL Washington replaced with a double... get this...
whose name was ADAM WEISHAUPT. Laugh not at the truth staring you blank in
the face. Rather, let ME laugh at YOU.
On a more serious note: Washington's anti-Illuminist remarks in some few of
his letters seems to me more of a political expedient than anything else.
___Robert___
And what was so bad about Jacobinism.
-----
Nothing -- except that it was a failed attempt to restore a long-since
failed monarchy?
___Robert___
Was Martinism also bad?
-----
Only if we are talking about the kind promoted by the late WALTER Martin.
The OTHER Martinism is immensely interesting.
___Robert___
Adam Weishaupt taught that the kingdoms were bad and should be overthrown
and republics established in their place. Was that bad? He taught that the
religions of the would were corrupt. This is what Joseph Smith taught. Where
is the evil in Illuminism? Ben Franklin and Thom Jefferson were Illuminists
were they not?
-----
I don't know about Franklin and Jefferson (Deists? Yes. Illuminists? Hmmm.)
But it makes no difference: according to Enoch Shemna, we are likely going
to hell in the same handbasket.
Cheers,
JSW
Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Conferral
Date:
Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:51:29 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Enoch Shemna
CC:
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com,
RAZZ2017@aol.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7
___JSW___
I am more than happy to discuss any relevant facts you care to present.
___Todd J. Jumper___
I have several videos and documents which I can in free time dub off for you
but knowing your character and your disbelief
The videos I am refering to can be found at
http://www.freeworldalliance.com/videos.htm
___JSW___
Masonry is NOT a religion
___Todd J. Jumper___
I should just stop now because speaking the truth of things to you is like
yelling at a brick wall which just echos my voice and yells back at me.
-----
Rather, it seems the truth of the matter has yet to be demonstrated. I
strongly suspect that in the end, the facts will not be in your favor.
___Todd J. Jumper___
I am not insulting or name calling but if you want to take it as such then
go right ahead. I am only trying to show why I say the things I say and not
cause a fight.
-----
"You are a lackey of the devil; an unwitting dupe in a worldwide Luciferian
conspiracy, responsible for murder and secret political machinations to
promote its evil agenda. I am not insulting you or name-calling but if you
want to take it as such go right ahead."
:^)
___Todd J. Jumper___
I have run into just as many people who were masons and worked for the
government who admitted it was a religion and luciferian and left, just as
many people have shown me proof of this as you show all the proof of the
goodness therein and testify of how much it has been a good choice in your
life.
-----
The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If there is such good evidence
for this, let's see it.
___Todd J. Jumper___
Whatsoever is good cometh from God, whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil
therefore by this shall ye judge.
-----
Indeed. Let's see the evidence. Make an argument. Present a case, so that we
can judge.
___Todd J. Jumper___
As usual you take your pompous and extremely prideful attitude and make it
into a big ruckus from a personal email.
-----
A personal e-mail in which you accused me of being a dupe of Satan. That I
am not amused by such nonsense can hardly be construed as "extremely
prideful." Rather, it is standing up for my good name and character, which
your baseless accusations have sullied. What you choose to call a "big
ruckus" is me calling attention to a certain kind of bigotry in which my
honor and integrity are called into question -- not for any personal act I
have or have not done -- aside from my association with Freemasonry.
___Todd J. Jumper___
Your intention is not to prove your argument but do all you can to get
others on your side to make the messanger look like a fool and an uninspired
accuser and trouble maker in hope that they will
either be banned or leave the list.
-----
Unlike certain conspiring between friends on MAHONRI-L against me, I do not
wish for you to be banned from the list, neither do I hope that you will go
away. Rather, I think that your personal views deserve the widest possible
hearing and the closest attention.
I do not need to "prove" MY argument at all. It is only necessary for others
to have a full and free hearing of the evidence you present and the
conclusions you draw therefrom. I am fully persuaded that others can arrive
at their own conclusions.
___Todd J. Jumper___
Like I said I am only going to supply what I have and that will be the end
of it, the rest of you can make your own choice from their on.
-----
You should know that I am not likely to plunk down $25.00 to hear a bunch of
regurgitated antiMasonic stuff. Why pay Hilbert for stuff that I can get
for free elsewhere on the net? Besides, it is clear from the short snippet
in its teaser advertisment that "Lucifer 2000" relies upon the
long-disproved Taxil hoax for its evidence that Masons worship Lucifer. The
cover features a picture of Albert Pike, under which are the words
attributed to him by Taxil: "Yes, Lucifer is God..."
I have answered this myself in NG postings, and Art deHoyos' book (which I
provide links to in my previous e-mail) also discusses it in som detail. I
trust that others can review the evidence on both sides, and determine which
end of the duck quacks and which poops.
___JSW___
I should mention that Masonry was initially and fundamentally a Christian
institution, and those who choose to receive the degrees of York Rite
Masonry DO take an oath to defend the Christian religion.
___Todd J. Jumper___
So does Clinton while at the same time murders everyone in WACO.
-----
As a Libertarian and a Freemason, I am no fan of tyranny, whether it
manifests on the left or on the right, or in the Church or synagogue. Your
veiled accusation that Freemasonry sponsors such acts is a base lie.
___JSW___
Each of these claims must be evaluated carefully, as must the characters
who make them.
___Todd J. Jumper___
Evaluate them yourself with the videos.
----
Why don't you present one or two of the salient arguments here,
where list members can evaluate them without having to fork out a chunk of
change to Mr. Hilbert for stuff of dubious worth.
___Todd J. Jumper___
As for other documents they will be post as time provides at
www.freeworldalliance.com
-----
As it is, there is little at the site but teasers to get fools to part with
their hard-earned money.
___JSW___
Carlson, John Ankerberg, William Whalen and other such scroungers as your
friend relies upon for his "evidence." Unlike your scrounger friend...
___Todd J. Jumper___
I didn't call names or insult your friends.
-----
I am not insulting or name calling, but if you want to take it as such then
go right ahead. I am only trying to show why I say the things I say and not
cause a fight. ;^)
___JSW___
As for the claim that your friend can demonstrate that Masonry is
"Luciferian," I would wonder what that might mean. Does he have evidence
that the leaders of some Masonic bodies regularly meet with the Lord of
Darkness himself, say, promptly at 4:00 pm every Thursday, for consultation
on the next step in their Great and Illuminated Conspiracy to make all of
mankind the ignorant but willing dupes of the Devil?
___Todd J. Jumper___
They are going to meet on New Year Eve 2000 at the great giza pyramid in
Egypt and bring in the New World Order, where some say Lucifer himself will
appear.
-----
Oh! As a 32° Mason, and therefore according to the fake Pike quote, "in" on
the Big Luciferian Secret, I'd better get my reservations in early for this
one. I've no love of the Devil, but if he's making a personal appearance,
then it might be worthwhile to be there to catch a glimpse of His Royal
Badness. I'll be sure to take my camera in case it proves to be a real photo
op.
___JSW___
I don't suppose that you will come upon "many" such quotes. I rather suspect
you are referring to the well-known hoax of Leo Taxil, in which he
attributes to Albert Pike words which he never said, in an attempt to
embarrass the Catholic Church, and make a few dollars while ... at it.
___Todd J. Jumper___
The quotes are to be found on the videos.
-----
Again, why bother, when you can find them for free elsewhere on the 'net?
___JSW___
An d yo ur evidence that I don't listen to the promptings of the Lord about
it, are that I disagree with you. This is precisely why it is not
productive to discuss the "Lord" and the "Devil" at this point. It becomes
little more than spiritual chest-puffing, and is not helpful at arriving at
the facts.
___Todd J. Jumper___
Spiritual chest puffing? Oh well if you see it that way then that is what
you do. What you see in others is what you hate in yourself.
-----
I refuse to be drawn into a spiritual "pissing match." If you have evidence
you wish to present, then please do so. If you prefer to make veiled
accusations that I am a dupe of Satan without the teensiest shred of
evidence, then you must know I am not interested. I have opened this
discussion to the entire list, to provide you with a platform to make your
best case. It is your opportunity to demonstrate once and for all that I am
a dupe of the Devil, a real Satanic wolf in Mormon sheep-clothing. Don't let
such an invitation pass you by, Todd.
___JSW___
It is because my experiences in the past lead me to believe that God and
the Devil are often called upon to legitimize what cannot be legitimized in
any other way. At this point in our discussion, denouncing
Masonry as "Satanic" or "Luciferian" amounts to little more than
name-calling. Appeals to God similarly may be used to validate what the
evidence cannot support.
___Todd J. Jumper___
You take insults or namecalling because that is the way you choose to take
it. I have done neither nor was it my intention.
-----
Your name-calling can be excused if you can back it up with facts.
Apparently, you cannot.
___JSW___
As I have said, while you are free to receive your own revelation to guide
your own behavior, I wouldn't expect that to guide the behavior of others, >
unless they trust your prophetic insight -- or unless you provide real
"evidence" in which folks may place their faith.
___Todd J. Jumper___
Always asking for a sign, proof, evidence.
-----
No more than the scriptures require: "PROVE all things, hold fast to that
which is good." And, "faith is the SUBSTANCE (Gk. ASSURANCE) of things hoped
for, and the EVIDENCE (Gk. PROOF) of things not seen."
Besides, you owe me a REASON for your accusation that I am a Satanic dupe.
___Todd J. Jumper___
All things will be proven in due time, and there will be gnashing of teeth.
-----
I rather think that the truth is already evident for those with the eyes to
see it. As the scripture says, "the Light shineth in darkness, and the
darkness comprehendeth it not."
___Todd J. Jumper___
I will not leave the Lord out of any discussion because I am with him and
he is with me, if you want the Lord out of things then you should not any
longer speak with me because then you will have no part of me
as well.
___JSW___
This is a shuck and jive, Todd. Present your evidence, and I fully suspect
that I will hear nothing that hasn't circulated through the anti-Masonry
mill for many years. With, of course, the sole exception of your personal
revelation (unsupported by even the slimmest of facts) that Willard Richards
shot Joseph Smith as a part of a greater Masonic conspiracy against the
Prophet.
___Todd J. Jumper___
It's supported many times in church history you just choose to ignore them.
-----
Evidence, please.
___Todd J. Jumper___
Brigham Young actually told Willard to alter the records concerning the
martydom a couple times and this can be found.
----
Evidence, please.
___Todd J. Jumper___
I am not out to seek for physical evidence that this event occured.
-----
Of course not -- there is none!
___Todd J. Jumper___
An adulterous nation seeketh a sign.
-----
"The prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail."
___Todd J. Jumper___
Always looking outward are you.
-----
Whatever you say, Master Yoda.
___Todd J. Jumper___
There are lies all about and soon shall they be brought forth into the
light.
----
I am counting on it, Todd!
Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III
High Priest, Carnation Chapter #29, Royal Arch Masons
See! See the darkness fly
Before the sun of Masonry;
Formed by heaven's almighty hand,
Its base as firm as earth shall stand,
Diffusing Light from East to West,
And nations with its beams be blest.
Arching ages round shall roll,
Time the fate of man control,
Still resplendant light shall stand,
Its summit reared by Virtue's hand!
Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Conferral
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 03:28:09 +0000
From:
"Robert R. Black"
To:
Joe Steve Swick III , ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
enoch144@eagle-net.org, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com
References:
1 , 2
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Steve Swick III
>It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and
>principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the
>contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am...
>-----
>Yes, Washington disapproved of Illuminism. Apart from some idiots in the
>Grand Orient of France, so did everyone else. However, Illuminism was NOT
>Satanism -- it's distasteful aspects (Jacobinism, for instance)
>notwithstanding.
>
>Regards,
>JSW
I thought that Washington WAS an Illuminist. Where did he disapprove of
Illuminism. And what was so bad about Jacobinism. Was Martinism also bad?
Adam Weishaupt taught that the kingdoms were bad and should be overthrown
and republics established in their place. Was that bad? He taught that the
religions of the would were corrupt. This is what Joseph Smith taught. Where
is the evil in Illuminism? Ben Franklin and Thom Jefferson were Illuminists
were they not?
Robert.
Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Conferral
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:05:19 +0000
From:
"Robert R. Black"
To:
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III
CC:
jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, rpcman@hotmail.com,
proclus@mac.com, RAZZ2017@aol.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7
Enoch,
I visited your website and did not find the videos that you mention. There
were ADS for videos. One of them said:
666
MARK OF THE BEAST
This tape is fully documented with high-tech secular television footage
proving the existence of the Illuminati's Plan to physically implant
everyone living on the planet by the year 2000.
$23.00 post-paid.
Now, no one has visited me or my family to request that we receive implants.
Nor have any of my friends. There is less than six months yet to go. Do you
seriously want us to believe that this stuff is for real? And I certainly am
not going to send him $23 for his improbable story. Unless the Illuminati is
just a motley crew of inept nincompoops who do not know what they are doing.
If such were the case they certainly need not be feared.
Robert.
----- Original Message -----
From: Enoch Shemna
To: Joe Steve Swick III
Cc:
Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Royal Arch Conferral
> > I am more than happy to discuss any relevant facts you care to present.
> >
> > ___Todd J. Jumper___
> > I have several videos and documents which I can in free time dub off for
> you
> > but knowing your character and your disbelief
>
> The videos I am refering to can be found at
> http://www.freeworldalliance.com/videos.htm
>
> > scripture), Masonry is NOT a religion in the generally accepted meaning
of
>
> I should just stop now because speaking the truth of things to you is like
> yelling at a brick wall which just echos my voice and yells back at me. I
am
> not insulting or name calling but if you want to take it as such then go
> right ahead. I am only trying to show why I say the things I say and not
> cause a fight. I have run into just as many people who were masons and
> worked for the government who admitted it was a religion and luciferian
and
> left, just as many people have shown me proof of this as you show all the
> proof of the goodness therein and testify of how much it has been a good
> choice in your life. Whatsoever is good cometh from God, whatsoever is
evil
> cometh from the devil therefore by this shall ye judge. As usual you take
> your pompous and extremely prideful attitude and make it into a big ruckus
> from a personal email. Your intention is not to prove your argument but
do
> all you can to get others on your side to make the messanger look like a
> fool and an uninspired accuser and trouble maker in hope that they will
> either be banned or leave the list. Like I said I am only going to supply
> what I have and that will be the end of it, the rest of you can make your
> own choice from their on.
>
> > I should mention that Masonry was initially and fundamentally a
Christian
> > institution, and those who choose to receive the degrees of York Rite
> > Masonry DO take an oath to defend the Christian religion.
>
> So does Clinton while at the same time murders everyone in WACO.
>
> > Each of these claims must be evaluated carefully, as must the characters
> who
>
> Evaluate them yourself with the videos. As for other documents they will
be
> post as time provides at www.freeworldalliance.com
>
>
> > Carlson, John Ankerberg, William Whalen and other such scroungers as
your
> > friend relies upon for his "evidence." Unlike your scrounger friend, who
> is
>
> I didn't call names or insult your friends.
>
> > As for the claim that your friend can demonstrate that Masonry is
> > "Luciferian," I would wonder what that might mean. Does he have
evidence
> > that the leaders of some Masonic bodies regularly meet with the Lord of
> > Darkness himself, say, promptly at 4:00 pm every Thursday, for
> consultation
> > on the next step in their Great and Illuminated Conspiracy to make all
of
> > mankind the ignorant but willing dupes of the Devil?
>
> They are going to meet on New Year Eve 2000 at the great giza pyramid in
> Egypt and bring in the New World Order, where some say Lucifer himself
will
> appear.
>
> > I don't suppose that you will come upon "many" such quotes. If rather
> > suspect you are referring to the well-known hoax of Leo Taxil, in which
he
> > attributes to Albert Pike words which he never said, in an attempt to
> > embarrass the Catholic Church, and make a few dollars while he was at
it.
> > You may read Jim Tresner's article at:
>
> The quotes are to be found on the videos.
>
>
> > And your evidence that I don't listen to the promptings of the Lord
about
> > it, are that I disagree with you. This is precisely why it is not
> > productive to discuss the "Lord" and the "Devil" at this point. It
> becomes
> > little more than spiritual chest-puffing, and is not helpful at arriving
> at
> > the facts.
>
> Spiritual chest puffing? Oh well if you see it that way then that is what
> you do. What you see in others is what you hate in yourself.
>
> > On the contrary. It is because my experiences in the past lead me to
> believe
> > that God and the Devil are often called upon to legitimize what cannot
be
> > legitimized in any other way. At this point in our discussion,
denouncing
> > Masonry as "Satanic" or "Luciferian" amounts to little more than
> > name-calling. Appeals to God similarly may be used to validate what the
> > evidence cannot support.
>
> You take insults or namecalling because that is the way you choose to take
> it. I have done neither nor was it my intention.
>
> > As I have said, while you are free to receive your own revelation to
> guide
> > your own behavior, I wouldn't expect that to guide the behavior of
others,
> > unless they trust your prophetic insight -- or unless you provide real
> > "evidence" in which folks may place their faith.
>
> Always asking for a sign, proof, evidence. All things will be proven in
due
> time, and there will be gnashing of teeth.
>
>
> > ___Todd J. Jumper___
> > I will not leave the Lord out of any discussion because I am with him
and
> > he is with me, if you want the Lord out of things then you should not
any
> > longer speak with me because then you will have no part of me
> > as well.
> > -----
> >
> > This is a shuck and jive, Todd. Present your evidence, and I fully
> suspect
> > that I will hear nothing that hasn't circulated through the anti-Masonry
> > mill for many years. With, of course, the sole exception of your
personal
> > revelation (unsupported by even the slimmest of facts) that Willard
> Richards
> > shot Joseph Smith as a part of a greater Masonic conspiracy against the
> > Prophet.
>
> It's supported many times in church history you just choose to ignore
them.
> Brigham Young actually told Willard to alter the records concerning the
> martydom a couple times and this can be found. I am not out to seek for
> physical evidence that this event occured. I was there. I saw it happen.
> How can I prove an event that happened in 1844, I can barely prove to you
> what I do in my daily life. An adulterous nation seeketh a sign. Always
> looking outward are you. All of this information is accesible to anyone.
> Go within, go to God and get access to the hall of records for yourself
> instead of seeking with your eyes for the eyes will deceive you.
>
>
> > THE ILLUMINATI DO NOT EXIST. REALLY. This message brought to you by
> the
> > Illuminati.
>
> This may seem as a joke to others. But to me I take it as deadly serious.
> There are lies all about and soon shall they be brought forth into the
> light.
>
> Enoch
>
>
Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Implants
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:20:10 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
"Robert R. Black" ,
Enoch Shemna
CC:
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com, RAZZ2017@aol.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8
___Robert Black___
Now, no one has visited me or my family to request that we receive
implants. Nor have any of my friends. There is less than six months yet to
go. Do you seriously want us to believe that this stuff is for real? And I
certainly am not going to send him $23 for his improbable story. Unless the
Illuminati is
just a motley crew of inept nincompoops who do not know what they are doing.
If such were the case they certainly need not be feared.
-----
Well, I hate to burst your bubble, Robert, but I am on the Grand Illuminated
Steering Committee, and I want you to know that we are not the nincompoops
you would have us be. We DO have a plan for the implanting of all of
humanity during the next six months: nanytes in your drinking water. Never
mind tha t EA RTH LY nanotechnology is not this far advanced. Remember, we
work for the Lizard Gods of Sirius, who -- while preferring life in the
sewers of Provo and Salt Lake City -- nevertheless have technology far
beyond that of mortal men.
Cheers,
JSW
+++ +++++ +++++++
VISIT the final resting place of all good Illuminati/ Alien/ Cthulhu/
Mormon/ Freemason/ K of C/ World Domination conspiracies and rants!
Protection from the MOJO! FNORD http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/
Subject:
Re: Royal Arch Implants
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:18:09 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Enoch Shemna
CC:
jswick@cris.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
rpcman@hotmail.com, proclus@mac.com,
RAZZ2017@aol.com
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10
----- Original Message -----
From: Enoch Shemna
To: Joe Steve Swick III
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: Royal Arch Implants
> Joe Steve Prick,
>
> Now for a man of your degrees and honrable mentions, you are awful
immature
> to result to plain old making fun of things now. I will stay on this list
> but have not time to waste with an asshole like you. Give me a break
> already. I am usually spiritual and calm but you are not a very nice man
at
> all.
>
> Enoch
>
Wow, I'm a PRICK, an ASSHOLE, and not a nice man to boot!
Actually,
Todd, I'm a pretty nice guy. I'm SO nice, in fact, that I refuse to believe
political and religious bigotry, particularly when it is unsupported by the
faintest shred of evidence. I see no compelling evidence of a
Jewish-Masonic conspiracy. I also understand that this particular morsel
of
hate is the very rail that Masons and Jews both rode into Nazi death
camps.
I am also usually spiritual and calm, and I still feel so now. I assure you
my use of humor is far preferable to becoming indignant over the
unsubstantiated claims that I am a Masonic dupe, serving the Devil
through
the instrumentatlity of reptilian overlords. I suppose the reason I am not
offended, is because I feel sympathy for you. You have been duped by
the
MERCHANDISERS, Todd. You know the Merchandisers: they are the
ones who will
not hesitate to tell you a really scary story, complete with horrible
boogeyman -- for a price. And I'm not talking about the price of a
$24.95
videotape, either. The price, it seems to me, is seen most keenly in the
absence of a certain balance. As that Great Luciferian, Albert Pike noted:
"True religion consists in the equilibrium of the two greatest pngts of
God
to man -- faith and reason."
and,
"The subtle human intellect can weave its mists over even the clearest
vision."
Warmest Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III
"Wisdom went forth to dwell among the sons of men, but she obtained
not an
habitation" (1 En. 42:2).
"Men are great or small in stature as it pleases God; but their nature is
great or small as it pleases themselves" (Albert Pike).
Subject:
new edition
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:29:13 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
Radical is in a new edition. The format is still a little in flux.
Please pass on any suggestions or opinions. Also, we could use some
more links for the sidebar. If you know of anything that is germain,
please pass it on.
I added the polygamy poll. You know the drill. Go hit the site and
take the poll. ;-}
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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Subject:
My Policy Regarding "Incendiary E-Mail"
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:35:26 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
Enoch Shemna
CC:
proclus ,
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
onandagus@webtv.net,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12
___Todd J. Jumper___
Again breaking list rules like you rudely did several times on Mahonri-L and
Shulemna forwarding posts that are meant to be private oh well guess you
dont learn do you.
-----
At this point, I will refrain from saying anything that could be construed
as uncharitable, Todd. And, in the interest of decorum on the list I will
not respond to or quote the rest of your rather unkind posting. Rather,
I will here address my personal policy regarding private e-mail flames, for
your personal information, and for the benefit of the group. This is
unfortunate: in the entire time I have been on the RM list, I have not felt
the need to state this, because --you being the sole exception-- NO ONE has
seen the need to send me private flames. Here is my personal policy:
As a general rule, it is my custom not to forward, circulate, quote, or
otherwise publish private e-mail correspondence without the knowledge and
consent of the original sender, with ONLY ONE CAVEAT.
==> I will not tolerate "incendiary private e-mail," for any reason
whatsoever -- not at any time, or from any person.<==
Please exercise prudence if you intend on flaming me, for I will handle it
in only one of two ways:
1) I will add you to my twit filter.
I generally do this after one after a warning, but I may add you with no
warning if you ruffle my feathers wrong. All mail thereafter is deposited in
the trash unopened, and I save money on blood pressure meds.
2) At my discretion, I may choose to publish the letter on the forum from
which it originated.
Some folks find this infuriating when I do it, but as their letter was sent
to privately taunt/ridicule/infuriate ME, I find it perfectly acceptable to
publicly publish such. If you do not wish to be publicly embarassed in this
manner, then make sure the wording of your post is something you don't mind
owning on a public forum. And of course, the other clear (and clearly
preferable) option is DONT SEND ME PRIVATE FLAME MAIL AT ALL.
Now, you may disagree with how I choose to handle this, but I assure you
that it has been most effective in reducing the amount of annoying mail I
get, and has ensured my sanity.
While I wish I could be everybody's friend, the truth of the matter is that
some folks just don't like the look of my face, my brand of religion, my
political philosophy, or my fraternal associations. They are welcome to
their opinions, as long as they respect my wishes in not sending private
flames. I simply do not have the time/bandwidth for such nonsense.
I only add that until now, I have NEVER had a bad experience with any list
members, even when they have sent mail to privately disagree with me on a
point. I ask for your cooperation and understanding, and your continued
excellent manners.
Warmest Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III
"Education, Instruction, and Enlightenment are the only certain means by
which Intolerance and Fanaticism can be rendered powerless" -- Albert Pike
Subject:
Re: enoch's request
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:30:17 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
proclus ,
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
onandagus@webtv.net,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
References:
1 , 2 , 3
___Todd J. Jumper___
I will not tolerate Joe Swick and him forwarding personal emails to the
list-
-----
I have already apologized for forwarding your personal e-mail to the list; I
do not apologize if the content of this private mail has embarassed you.
Perhaps it would have been more charitable had I forewarned you that I
generally do not accept incendiary private mails from members of a list or
public NG. If it will smooth things over between us, I am quite happy to
apologize for this misunderstanding.
Quite frankly, I do believe that our list would be worse for your leaving,
Todd. I encourage you to stay, even if it is just as a "lurker." However,
it would be better if you felt free to participate here. You have much to
contribute to this group, and you should not allow differences of opinion
with ME to interfere with your participation on the RM list.
___Todd J. Jumper___
he did this to myself and several others back on old Mahonri-L and I had to
leave there because of the contention he stirred up several times and
brought out the worst in everyone likewise he did the same thing on Shulemna
until about 20 people had to request to kick him off that list.
-----
Well. Let's just say that my personal recollection of mahonri-l and
shulemna is rather different than this, and leave it at that.
___Proclus___
I was on mahonri-l at that time as well, and would give a different version
of the events. Joe came to mutantRM's as a mahonri-l exile, and we received
him in perfect love and trust.
-----
And I have appreciated the rather low-keyed approach here on RM, and the
fine contributions of the assorted Mutants. I tend to listen much more than
I contribute; it is often enjoyable to see other's enthusiasm over issues
that I find equally fascinating, but have not investigated as deeply. Most
notably, Ken Shaw's postings on his experiences in the Sufi way have been
most enlightening.
___Todd J. Jumper___
My opinion is that he is not only a disinformation agent but a troublemaker
who disrupts these lists.
___Proclus___
In my experience, Joe is a gentleman and a scholar. He is very demanding of
those he would share his insights with. Maybe you should reconsider, take
his remarks in good humor, and try to run the gauntlet
a little. I'm sure that you would find it a very enlightening, and
worthwhile experience indeed.
-----
Proclus, your comments are very diplomatic, and much appreciated.
To be fair to you Todd, I suspect that there are a few others here that deep
in their heart of hearts also think that I am the Devil's Messenger. As long
as your exchange with me on this matter is well-mannered and polite, I
really do believe that it is beneficial for the entire list to have this
kind of discussion. THAT is why I posted your message in the first place. I
was actually HOPING that you would present some good material here: in fact,
that is why we the list exists (to be ENTIRELY honest, I was secretly
HOPING that Proclus or someone else would have made me explain one
particular Pike quote regarding Lucifer from Morals and Dogma -- and I even
provided page numbers to make the work easy! Oh, well).
Todd, I knew your views on Freemasonry when we voted to add you. Frankly, I
think having you here is the RIGHT thing -- both for the OTHER Mutants who
can benefit from your unique perspective -- and for YOU, who can benefit
from the unique perspectives of other Mutants (including me). Besides, if I
am spreading disinformation here, then you have come to the right place:
feel free to call me on the carpet for it. I trust other forum members are
spiritual/intelligent/adult enough to know a fake when it is pointed out. As
for "troublemaking" -- well, you'd have to talk to other list members about
that. I don't think I've been much trouble at all, to be quite honest.
___Proclus___
It is my opinion that the host of eagle-net definitely belongs in this
circle. I hope that I speak for the whole group in this matter. You bring
unique insights to our group.
-----
I absolutely agree.
___Todd J. Jumper___
In the past I have tried to warn you and others about him and Tim Rathbone
and some others. But apparently people aren't listening.
-----
Well, yes. Tim's a certifiable rascal; I suppose I am also. However, as
Robert and others here well know, there is a very large difference between
is in some very ... errr... FUNDAMENTAL ways. I don't know that you
would need to WARN anyone about me, though. I pretty much mind my own
business, much preferring "listening in" to "disrupting" or "spreading
disinformation."
___Proclus___
I am happy to have you here. We don't have to agree about everything.
-----
Well. On THAT we are also agreed!
Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III
"The true Mason is he who each day strives to make some other man wiser and
better, and who, for that purpose, constantly strives to become wiser and
better" -- George Moore
Subject:
Re: enoch's request
Date:
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:22:46 -0600
From:
Kerry Shirts
To:
proclus
References:
1 , 2 , 3
For what it's worth, I have found both Joe and Enoch to be interesting and
enlightening. Sorry to see there are bad feelings.......I will continue to
post and be a smart alec as I can - GRIN! I just got back from a week in
California (LA traffic flat sucks man) from the FAIR Conference.
Kerry
----- Original Message -----
From: proclus
To: Andy Mcguire ArtdeHoyos
Beth any Dave Enoch
Shemna
Joe Steve Swick III Kathleen
McGuire Ken Shaw Kerry
Shirts
Michael J. Pierce
proclus R. Trent Reynolds
Randall Shortridge Robert R.
Black rpc man
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: enoch's request
> Enoch, I hope that you don't mind my forwarding your request to the
> li st. I wou ld have to post a general request to have your name removed
> anyway, and I expect that you will find the group more welcoming that it
> appears.
>
> In the end, if you still wish to leave the list, please post your
> request to the whole group, and we will accomodate you by removing you
> from our mutant address books. That would be a sad day for me.
>
> Enoch Shemna wrote:
> >
> > Proclus,
> >
> > When I have information I feel the list may be interested in I will
forward
> > it but for now remove my address from the list-
>
> I am sorry to hear this. As you know, I am trying to create touchstones
> for people of diverse interests in the Mormon community. I had hoped
> that we could accomodate you despite our differences.
>
> > I will not tolerate Joe
> > Swick and him forwarding personal emails to the list- he did this to
myself
> > and several others back on old Mahonri-L and I had to leave there
because of
> > the contention he stirred up several times and brought out the worst in
> > everyone likewise he did the same thing on Shulemna until about 20
people
> > had to request to kick him off that list.
>
> Well, I was on mahonri-l at that time as well, and would give a
> different version of the events. Joe came to mutantRM's as a mahonri-l
> exile, and we received him in perfect love and trust.
>
> > My opinion is that he is not only
> > a disinformation agent but a troublemaker who disrupts these lists.
>
> In my experience, Joe is a gentleman and a scholar. He is very
> demanding of those he would share his insights with. Maybe you should
> reconsider, take his remarks in good humor, and try to run the gauntlet
> a little. I'm sure that you would find it a very enlightening, and
> worthwhile experience indeed.
>
> It is my opinion that the host of eagle-net definitely belongs in this
> circle. I hope that I speak for the whole group in this matter. You
> bring unique insights to our group. Let's heal the breach.
>
> > In the
> > past I have tried to warn you and others about him and Tim Rathbone and
some
> > others. But apparently people aren't listening.
>
> Interestingly, Tim was blackballed when he tried to join this list. I
> remember that it was due to his Shulemna exploits. Personally, I
> maintained a private correspondence with him for quite a while
> afterwards. He is a wealth of interesting information, and helped me to
> shape my opinion regarding Adam-God. Nevertheless, I respected the
> wishes of the circle, and I did not invite him in. No one blackballed
> you, Enoch. I am happy to have you here. We don't have to agree about
> everything.
>
> Regards,
> proclus
>
> > Sincerely
> > Enoch
>
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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h---
> r+++ y++++
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>
Re: [Fwd: Apology]
Date:
Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:47:23 -0700
From:
Joe Steve Swick III
To:
proclus ,
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
onandagus@webtv.net,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man ,
Ken Shaw ,
Enoch Shemna
References:
1
Dear Todd:
I have some work to do this morning, and will not be able to fully reply to
your mail below until tonight. Until then, I wished you to know that I am
very glad you have chosen to remain on the list. I certainly hold no ill
will towards you, and look forward to your contributions here. And of
course, I am quite sorry if my sometimes cynical and biting approach
contributed to any feelings of bitterness and animosity you may have been
feeling. I assure you that such was not my intention.
As for intentions, Todd, I trust that yours are the best.
Warmest Regards,
Joe Steve Swick III
HP, Carnation Chapter No. 29 RAM
"It is from the mutual action and re-action of antagonistic forces, that
harmony, everywhere in the universe, results" -- Albert Pike
----- Original Message -----
From: proclus
To: Andy Mcguire ArtdeHoyos
Beth any Dave Joe Steve
Swick III
Kathleen McGuire Kerry Shirts
Michael J. Pierce
proclus R. Trent Reynolds
Randall Shortridge Robert R.
Black rpc man Ken Shaw
Enoch Shemna
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 9:13 AM
Subject: [Fwd: Apology]
>
Subject:
[Fwd: Apology]
Date:
Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:13:50 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any , Dave ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man ,
Ken Shaw ,
Enoch Shemna
Subject:
Apology
Date:
Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:49:03 -0400
From:
Enoch Shemna
To:
Joe Steve Swick III ,
'proclus'
**Please Forward to List as I have lost my members list**
Dear Joe and Proclus,
I would mostly like to apologize to Joe but feel it is appropriate to
Proclus as well.
I have misjudged you Joe and under the heat of me slamming your lifestyle
and beliefs you have returned a spirit of acceptance and love even though
anger and saracasm was your first reaction which I can not blame you for. I
am asking your forgiveness if I have hurt your feelings or got any facts
wrong about you or what has happened in the past. It is unlike me to lash
out like that, and really probably don't have a good excuse for doing so,
and I though I do feel some of my intentions were correct, I have sat back
and pondered and reread my posts and it was not done with the same spirit of
love and acceptance that you reflected in return, and I am ashamed of that.
Lately I have been under much stress working for a client of mine who's
website is www.freeworldalliance.com. He has had me watching all his videos
and there is indeed good eye-opening material in there but a lot of it is
depressing and dark in nature and "exposing the conspiracy" I guess had
built up so much negative energy in me that I basically just took it out on
Joe which was wrong, he was just an avenue to help me get rid of my anger
towards the corruptness I have found in the government and their secret
societies. I also guess part of it is that I am cooped up in a house most
of the day working and watching kids so I am used to having to discipline
when I feel something is wrong. But I need to sit back and relax now and
meditate and ask for the light of Christ to clean all this bad vibes from
me.
I am a very sensitive person and also somewhat psychic/medium in nature. I
easily absorb whatever energies are around me, if I would walk into a
crowded store I can feel everyones depressive natures and it drives me nuts,
on the other hand if I edify myself with uplifting conversation or reading
or music I become extremely in tune with the spirit so much that the veil
becomes very thin.
Everything I claim to have seen and experienced is true though some of the
things I claim even myself about 6 years ago would have thought were crazy,
and though a lot of my personal experiences can not be backed up with
physical evidence I know they are true just as much as I know I am sitting
here typing this now. As for outside sources duping me into believing their
theories about the masonic order, I can take it as a possibility since I now
see my mind wasn't as focused on the whole picture as it should be. People
in general out there are good, and my research into all these groups and the
things that people in high power are doing wrong clouded my mind to the
point where I hated the whole thing instead of just part of it. Your recent
posts help me realize this and I immediately felt the spirit and knew that I
had been wrong in my approach and offer my heart and friendship out to you
fully and a chance to start over fresh and hope that we can each benefit
from each other's wisdom.
Peace be unto you
Sincerely
Enoch
Subject:
Re: [Fwd: Apology]
Date:
Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:50:16 -0400 (EDT)
From:
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com
To:
jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com, enoch144@eagle-net.org
Hail fellow Mutants,
I admire Joe Steve Swick's sincerity in apologizing to Todd, but have to say
that, considering the crass, dishonest anti-Masonic statements Todd made
(whether public or private), I think Todd's getting a bargain.
I used to be surprised that people who seem intelligent continue to spread
the ridiculous "Lucifer is God" forgery as if it were true (when it was
exposed as a fraud 100 years ago), but I've come to realize that gullibility
has nothing to do with intelligence, but rather everything to do with having
a critical faculty.
It's almost amusing that some uninformed people fear that we Masons want to
run the world; the truth is, we can't even agree on what color to paint our
lodge rooms, or what desert to serve after supper.
The remarks which follow do NOT refer to Todd, but to anti-Masons in
general.
Anti-Masons, anti-Jews, anti-Blacks, anti-Gays, anti-Mormons, anti-F-I-Bs
(fill-in-the-blank) are welcome to believe anything they want, and they can
always find a convenient scapegoat for the world's problems. However, if
their writings become publicly exposed they should logically feel no more
anger than the group whose alleged "secret teachings" they are fond of
"exposing."
To me, it seems hypocritical that an anti-Mason is allowed to throw around
wild accusations and quote supposed "secret teachings," and then cry "foul"
when his authentic words are exposed.
Anti-Masons, such a Hitler, Franco and Khomeni have been pleased to use any
lie necessary to spread their "good news." As for me, I'm content to stand
with my fellow Masons, including Washington, Franklin, and yes...even Joseph
Smith.
---Art deHoyos, 32°, KCCH, KYCH
"Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?"
Find out: -- http://members.aol.com/adehoyos/chap1.htm
ICQ: 8959739 -- AOL Instant Messenger: artdehoyos
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Past Master and endowed life member,
McAllen Lodge No. 1110, AF&AM of Texas;
* Past Presiding Officer of all York Rite Bodies
(Hidalgo York Rite Bodies), McAllen, Texas;
* Grand Historian and Grand Archivist,
Supreme Council, 33°, Southern Jurisdiction;
* Member of the Resource Team, Ritual Committee,
Supreme Council, 33°, Southern Jurisdiction;
* Member of the Board of Directors and life member,
Scottish Rite Research Society;
* Grand Archivist; first recipient, Knight Grand Cross,
Grand College of Rites, USA;
* Ambassador-at-Large, San Antonio, TX, Valley, AASR;
* Class Director, Santa Fe, NM, Valley, AASR;
* Prelate, South Texas Conclave, Corpus Christi, TX,
Red Cross of Constantine and Appendant Orders;
* Societatis Rosicruciana in Civitatibus Foederatis;
* Allied Masonic Degrees;
* York Rite College;
* Royal Order of Scotland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Subject:
Re: [Fwd: Apology]
Date:
Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:13:40 -0400
From:
Enoch Shemna
To:
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, jswick@cris.com,
proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com,
kathleen@enol.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net,
rpcman@hotmail.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com
References:
1
> I used to be surprised that people who seem intelligent continue to spread
> the ridiculous "Lucifer is God" forgery as if it were true (when it was
> exposed as a fraud 100 years ago), but I've come to realize that
gullibility
> has nothing to do with intelligence, but rather everything to do with
having
> a critical faculty.
This is confusing because just as many people who have told me its a hoax
there have been just as many people who claim to have proof Albert Pike not
only said it but beleived it. In Albert Pike's own book he says Masonry is
a religion and lucifer is a great being but that can be in various contexes
depending on which way you look at it. Is it a matter of gullibility
really? Just as many people say the Book of Mormon is a hoax as there are
who say its completely true when there isn't much physical evidence of that.
I would like to bring to this list or either Joe and Art some quotes that
Anthony J. Hilder blasts all over his material justifying his reasons for
saying they are true. I will then ask him where he got his sources and make
up my mind from there. One thing he told me is that Albert Pike started the
Ku Klux Klan? Is that correct? KKK is part of a draconian language some
people say and those who have met with draconians. Check out
www.wiolawa.com
I am just throwing some things in- not saying any of this is my own beliefs.
Enoch
Subject:
Re: [Fwd: Apology]
Date:
Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:18:38 -0400
From:
Enoch Shemna
To:
Enoch Shemna ,
ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, jswick@cris.com, proclus@mac.com,
MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
comdb@yahoo.com, kathleen@enol.com,
shirtail@cyberhighway.net, mpierce@switchsoft.com,
onandagus@webtv.net, trent@goodnet.com,
rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com,
kshaw@dalsemi.com
Check out this I found on the Albert Pike website... interesting eh.
http://www.albertpikedemolay.org/alien/warning.html
Enoch
Subject:
green sash
Date:
Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:24:58 -0400
From:
proclus
To:
Andy Mcguire ,
ArtdeHoyos ,
Beth any ,
Dave ,
Enoch Shemna ,
Joe Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire ,
Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts ,
"Michael J. Pierce" ,
"onandagus@webtv.net" ,
proclus ,
"R. Trent Reynolds" ,
Randall Shortridge ,
"Robert R. Black" ,
rpc man
Thanks for that interesting link to the masonic southern jurisdiction
and temple in Washington. I particularly enjoyed the regalia of the
scottish rite degrees. Of course, I was looking for a green sash.
Gawain is my hobby, you know. In this regard, the regalia of the 15th
degree is particularly interesting. The green on red is a motif
throughout Gawain's story. Stiking how this is the first degree with
the title of knight. =}
Here's the link again, for those who want it, and a link right to the
regalia as well. Fascinating stuff.
http://www.srmason-sj.org/index.html
http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/temple/regalia.htm
Andy may appreciate that I was also intrigued by the 23rd degree, Chief
of the tabernacle. Chapel Perilous awaits us. The 28th Degree Knight
of the Sun, Prince Adept regalia was also intriguing in light of the
stellar initiation material we have discussed from the the Golden Dawn
and others. I imagine that it harks back to the blue lodge degrees as
well. The mind races ahead to the flaxen cord of the BOM and the
Starhawk's binding rituals as well. It appears that there is an
invisible link between us and our home among the stars. Heh, I'll stop
for now, before my mind races too far ;-}.
Regards,
proclus
--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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