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Subject: 
             Re: Masonic Moroni Website
       Date: 
             Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:40:53 -0800
      From: 
             Joe Steve Swick III 
         To: 
             proclus 
        CC: 
             Andy Mcguire ,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Kathleen McGuire ,
             Ken Shaw ,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
             Randall Shortridge ,
             "Robert R. Black" , rpc man 
 References: 
             1 , 2 , 3




___Proclus___
Hi Joe.  Paul Graham wrote to the Radical and asked that his site be
considered for inclusion in the Freemasonry sidebar.  What do you think.
Anyone, please feel free to chirp in on this.
-----

Sorry for the slow response... I think that it could use a shot in the arm
for content; some original writing might be nice.  However, it is one of the
few sites that actually engage the topic at all.  The "Blue Moroni" is
rather cool.

Cheers,

JSW




Subject: 
             Re: TARO, ROTA, ORAT...
       Date: 
             Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:08:03 -0800
      From: 
             Joe Steve Swick III 
         To: 
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "McGuire, Andy" ,
             proclus ,
             Andy Mcguire ,
             Kathleen McGuire ,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" , Theurgus
,
             rds , Beth Quick ,
             rpcman , onandagus ,
             dcombe , Beth ,
             George Head ,
             George Head , 
 References: 
             1




___Kerry Shirts___
 Is it at all true that there really are connections with Kabbalah and
Tarot? That also would be a lulu of a discussion around here.
-----

Take a look at this, and you tell ME:



 http://www.luc.dircon.co.uk/bota/Leaflet/OpenMeets.htm

Light in Extension,

JSW



Subject: 
         RE: Fabulous Alchemical Art
    Date: 
         Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:04:43 -0700
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         proclus , Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" , Randall Shortridge
,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man ,
         Don Bradley , 



THANKS Joe!

Kerry

----------
From:   Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@mindspring.com]
Sent:   Friday, November 26, 1999 5:59 AM
To:     proclus; Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Dave; Enoch Shemna; 
Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce; R. Trent 
Reynolds; Randall Shortridge; Robert R. Black; rpc man; Don Bradley
Subject:        Fabulous Alchemical Art

The following Alchemy website has some beautiful Alchemical art for sale. 
Be
sure to browse the rather extensive collection of texts here, as well.

http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com/amcldraw.html

Cheers,
JSW




 Subject: 
         Have a Joyous Thanksgiving
    Date: 
         Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:23:43 -0800
   From: 
         Joe Steve Swick III 
     To: 
         pfcase-l@dragon.org



In his discussion of the True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order, Paul case
discusses the true meaning behind the anti-Catholic rhetoric found in the
Rosicrucian Manifestoes. I suspect that these words will be of interest to
you. I post them noting that 'Catholic' could just as easily be 'Mormon' or
'Presbyterian' or 'Baptist' in the
discussion below.

"The manifestoes make the issue clear enough.  There is a great gulf fixed
between the fundamental stand of the Roman Church and that taken by all who
rely on the Inner Light. The Roman Church stands for an outer and
traditional authority. It concentrates the power to express the mind of
[God] into a single man, ... whereas those who are responsible for the
_Fama_ and _Confessio_ [i.e., the Rosicrucian Manifestoes] found [this
power] to be a potential for every member of humanity.... The papacy is the
outward and visible sign of an attitude of mind that Jesus himself
vigorously condemned.  This attitude is on of reliance on human traditions
and authority, claiming for themselves the right to speak in the name of
God.  It is the attitude of mind that led to the Inquisition, to the burning
of Savonarola, to the horror of St. Bartholomew's.  Let me hasten to add
that it is the attitude that led to the burning of Servetus by Calvin, to
the witchcraft persecutions in Protestant New England, and to the
intolerance shown toward Quakers and Baptists by the Puritans and Pilgrims
of Massachusetts.  The papacy is merely the oldest and strongest
manifestation of this attitude, which encourages priestcraft and feeds the
fires of intolerance.... Religious creeds and beliefs are, after all,
confessions of ignorance.  The Roman Church demands belief and proclaims
itself the custodian of sacred mysteries.  So do all other exoteric
religions, with the exception of Buddhism.  Gnostic Christianity opposes
itself to this false notion. It declares that man may _know_ the Supreme
Reality. Thus, we find the _Fama_ saying, 'We confess to have the knowledge
of Jesus Christ' .... The very first paragraph of the _Fama_ speaks of this
knowledge of Jesus Christ as something to be perfected by a series of stages
of unfoldment.  The _Confessio_ also says: 'It must not be expected that new
comers shall attain all at once all our weighty secrets.  They must proceed
step by step from the smaller to the greater, and must not be retarded by
difficulties.'  In speaking of the Rosicrucian philosophy the _Fama_
expressly states that 'truth is peaceable, brief, and always like herself in
all things, and especially accorded with _Jesus in omni parte_ and all
members.' So the great Rosicrucian secret is seen to be nothing other than
knowledge of Christ" (Case, True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order, 145-7).

And:

"I have no special antagonism to Rome and none at all toward the members of
the Roman communion.  I do not forget that EVEN THE POPE WAS ONCE A LAY
MEMBER OF THAT COMMUNION.  I  do not doubt that many a Pope and many a
priest believes sincerely enough in all the doctrines of the church he
serves.  These men are victims of an idea, of a system, and the idea and
system have just as poisonous an influence on persons outside the Roman
communion.  It is against the system that  the [Rosicrucians] direct their
shafts of satire.  An authoritarian Church or an authoritarian 'science'
cannot permit freedom of conscience and uses force when it can, or whatever
other weapons offer when brute force cannot be employed, to suppress that
freedom.  Thus, among the enemies of Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry today,
we find exoteric materialism not less active than exoteric 'Churchianity,'
and for the same reasons....

Rosicrucian religion, then, is Christian Gnosticism.  It is opposed to
organized religious authority because that authority imposes creeds, plays
on the fears and hopes of believers, and in Christendom founds itself on the
essential ignobility and worthlessness of man.  Rosicrucian religion begins
by proclaiming man's nobleness and worth and proceeds to declare its
knowledge of the Christos.  It describes that knowledge as being progressive
and leading eventually to ... immortality.  It offers no creed, establishes
no set proceeding.  'None of the posterity shall be constrained to wear one
kind of habit [special religious garments -- jsw].' It sums itself up in the
word R. C., that is in compassion and tenderness for all mankind.... The
Pope it execrates is not the man who sits in Peter's seat.  It is the
office -- of which the man is certainly as much a victim as the most
ignorant peasant who lets his family starve that he may contribute his quota
of Peter's pence" (Ibid., 149-52).

And he also says this:

"By Greek Gematria, the values of the letters in rhodon (rose) add to 294,
which is also the number of the Greek noun _ekklesia_,  literally 'a calling
out,' an assembly for oral instruction. This was the original meaning of the
word as used in the New Testament, although it is now applied to the
external organization of the Church. Erudite readers ... would have known
... that 294 is the number of the Hebrew noun ARGMN,  argamen, a reddish
purple color like that of the traditional ... rose. They also would have
known that 294 is the number of ALHI ABRHM, Alhi Abraham, or God of Abraham
... and of MLKITzDQ, Melchizedek, the mysterious king of Salem around whose
name there have been woven so many esoteric doctrines.  Thus, for such a
reader, the rose would be the symbol of the Secret Church, cherishing the
true priesthood 'after the order of Melchizedek,' and possessed of the
traditional wisdom relating to AL ShDI, El Shaddai, the God of Abraham"
(Case, True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order, 145-7).

I hope this has been encouraging.

Sion oros: domos Theou

JSW




     Subject: 
             Information on the Fool
       Date: 
             Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:56:15 -0800
      From: 
             Joe Steve Swick III 
         To: 
             proclus 
        CC: 
             Andy Mcguire ,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw
,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
             Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black"
,
             rpc man 
 References: 
             1 , 2 , 3



Hello, Mutants:

Some time ago, Robert and I engaged in a discussion of Tarot, each posting
comments on Key 0, The Fool.  I have unfortunately lost our postings on this
subject (including my own), and was hoping that someone here may have kept a
copy for their own amusement?

Your assistance in this matter would make me particularly thankful this
Thanksgiving Weekend!

Warmest Regards,
Joe Swick
Heretic



     Subject: 
             Fabulous Alchemical Art
       Date: 
             Fri, 26 Nov 1999 04:59:59 -0800
      From: 
             Joe Steve Swick III 
         To: 
             proclus , Andy Mcguire
,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw
,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "Michael J. Pierce" ,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
             Randall Shortridge , "Robert R. Black"
,
             rpc man , Don Bradley 
 References: 
             1



The following Alchemy website has some beautiful Alchemical art for sale. Be
sure to browse the rather extensive collection of texts here, as well.

http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com/amcldraw.html

Cheers,
JSW



     Subject: 
             Re: Information on the Fool
       Date: 
             Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:46:57 -0500
      From: 
             Randall Shortridge 
         To: 
             Joe Steve Swick III 
        CC: 
             proclus , Andy Mcguire
,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw
,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" , "Robert R. Black"
,
             rpc man 
 References: 
             1 , 2 , 3 , 4



I may have kept some things on my work computer regarding the discussions of
the
Tarot.  I found them very enlightening, but I don't remember one on the fool.
I
will look for it when I get back to my office, but cannot promise anything.

If someone else finds this essay, can you forward a copy to me?  Also, I would
be interested in getting all of the discussions that took place on the meaning
of the Tarot.

Randall

Joe Steve Swick III wrote:

> Hello, Mutants:
>
> Some time ago, Robert and I engaged in a discussion of Tarot, each posting
> comments on Key 0, The Fool.  I have unfortunately lost our postings on this
> subject (including my own), and was hoping that someone here may have kept a
> copy for their own amusement?
>
> Your assistance in this matter would make me particularly thankful this
> Thanksgiving Weekend!
>
> Warmest Regards,
> Joe Swick
> Heretic



Subject: 
             Re: Information on the Fool
       Date: 
             Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:53:16 -0500
      From: 
             proclus 
         To: 
             Andy Mcguire ,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Joe Steve Swick III ,
             Kathleen McGuire ,
             Ken Shaw ,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "Michael J. Pierce" ,
             "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
             proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
             Randall Shortridge ,
             "Robert R. Black" , 
 References: 
             1 , 2 , 3 , 4




Hi Joe,  We have these discussions in the archives, of course.  It would
take a little digging around to find them.  If you still need them, I
will try and point you in the right direction.

Regards,
proclus


Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> 
> Hello, Mutants:
> 
> Some time ago, Robert and I engaged in a discussion of Tarot, each posting
> comments on Key 0, The Fool.  I have unfortunately lost our postings on this
> subject (including my own), and was hoping that someone here may have kept a
> copy for their own amusement?
> 
> Your assistance in this matter would make me particularly thankful this
> Thanksgiving Weekend!
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> Joe Swick
> Heretic

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------




Subject: 
         Re: Information on the Fool
    Date: 
         Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:41:35 -0800
   From: 
         Joe Steve Swick III 
     To: 
         Joe Steve Swick III , proclus
,
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , 




Proclus:

I found my posting at
discus7.html.

All kinds kinds of other really good stuff in these archives... some of
these posts are fantastic.

Thanks!

JSW

----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Steve Swick III 
To: proclus ; Andy Mcguire ;
ArtdeHoyos ; Beth any ; Dave
; Enoch Shemna ; Kathleen McGuire
; Ken Shaw ; Kerry Shirts
; Michael J. Pierce ;
; R. Trent Reynolds ; Randall
Shortridge ; Robert R. Black ; rpc
man 
Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: Information on the Fool


> I seem to be able to find everything AROUND this post (all of which I have
> downloaded), but not my own post.  Looking at
>
> http://medici.penguinpowered.com/radical/discus8.html
>
> It appears that I posted on discussion occurred on February 16 or 17 as a
> part of the thread, "The Condescension of the Gods," but I don't see it
> here.
>
> Cheers,
> JSW





From - Mon Dec 13 12:57:02 1999
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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:55:10 -0500
From: "McGuire, Andy" 
Subject: RE: proclus wakes up
To: 'proclus' , Andy Mcguire ,
 ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
 Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
 Joe Steve Swick III ,
 Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
 Kerry Shirts ,
 "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net,
 "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
 Randall Shortridge ,
 "Robert R. Black" , rpc man 
Message-id:
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This is one of the many reasons that I will no longer grace The Beast with
my money, my presence, or my support.

Want something else to scratch your head about?  BYU is offering class
credit for students taking Political Intern positions in California in
support of the Knight Initiative.

-Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: proclus [mailto:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 6:02 PM
To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Dave; Enoch Shemna; Joe Steve
Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce;
onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge;
Robert R. Black; rpc man
Subject: proclus wakes up


Uh...  Is the Church really trying to kill the web?

http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/cyber/cyberlaw/10law.html

Regards,
proclus




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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:53:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Combe 
Subject: RE: proclus wakes up
To: "McGuire, Andy" ,
 'proclus' , Andy Mcguire ,
 ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
 Enoch Shemna ,
 Joe Steve Swick III ,
 Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
 Kerry Shirts ,
 "Michael J. Pierce" , onandagus@webtv.net,
 "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
 Randall Shortridge ,
 "Robert R. Black" , rpc man 
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I have commented on this on other lists:

BYU, like many other colleges and universities, offers
internship credit for participation in political
campaigns.  I myself was the Carter for Pres chair at
BYU, a most thankless job, but, which was accepted by
the university with no ill impact on me.
  
This ad just ran in the Universe.  Assuming that
university policy is followed for internships, why
shouldn't BYU give credit, if the work is done?  And I
say this as a gay man, in CA, totally opposed to
Knight. I hope we don't just believe in democratic
debate if our side wins.  I am also assuming that BYU
would similarily give credit for those participating
in the anti-Knight side.  If they would not, then it
becomes a different issue. of cource.

Dave (the silent one who reads but hardly ever talks)

--- "McGuire, Andy" 
wrote:
> This is one of the many reasons that I will no
> longer grace The Beast with
> my money, my presence, or my support.
> 
> Want something else to scratch your head about?  BYU
> is offering class
> credit for students taking Political Intern
> positions in California in
> support of the Knight Initiative.
> 
> -Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: proclus [mailto:proclus@mac.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 6:02 PM
> To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Dave; Enoch
> Shemna; Joe Steve
> Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts;
> Michael J. Pierce;
> onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds;
> Randall Shortridge;
> Robert R. Black; rpc man
> Subject: proclus wakes up
> 
> 
> Uh...  Is the Church really trying to kill the web?
> 
>
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/cyber/cyberlaw/10law.html
> 
> Regards,
> proclus
> 
> -- 
> Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> N- !o K- w---
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> b !DI D- G
> e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> 




Subject: 
         proclus wakes up
    Date: 
         Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:02:28 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , 




Uh...  Is the Church really trying to kill the web?

http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/cyber/cyberlaw/10law.html

Regards,
proclus

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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!O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G
e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



Subject: 
             Re: proclus wakes up
       Date: 
             Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:31:58 -0500
      From: 
             proclus 
         To: 
             Andy Mcguire ,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Joe Steve Swick III ,
             Kathleen McGuire ,
             Ken Shaw ,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "Michael J. Pierce" ,
             "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
             proclus ,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
             Randall Shortridge ,
             "Robert R. Black" , 
 References: 
             1




I hope you won't mind my venting a little more about this.  My comments
will evince no intellectual rigor.  I'm saving brain cells for the big
winding up exercise here at the grad school.  I have two impressions.

First, it seems to me that the Church is acting in a now familiar badass
corporate bully mode, throwing out the the legal muscles and crushing
the little guys to protect their so-called intellectual property
rights.  Don't mess with the logo, boys, or we'll see you in court.  We
can't have any brand dilution around here... and so on.  It is a great
day for multi-billion dollar corporations.  The rest of you groveling
consumers, shut up and buy stuff.

Second, I'm reminded of the destruction of the printing press.  You know
the story.  Joseph Smith, all high and mighty from powerful spiritual
experiences, forgets what country he lives in.  This is AMERICA, Joe. 
Ever heard of freedom of the press?  fair use?  You go to jail doofus! 
It is no wonder what happened to him next.

Maybe we are going to have Nauvoo all over again.

Regards,
proclus



proclus wrote:
> 
> Uh...  Is the Church really trying to kill the web?
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/cyber/cyberlaw/10law.html
> 
> Regards,
> proclus
> 
> --
> Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
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> !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b !DI D- G
> e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



Subject: 
             Re: proclus wakes up
       Date: 
             Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:36:44 -0700
      From: 
             Kathleen 
         To: 
             proclus 
        CC: 
             Andy Mcguire ,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Joe Steve Swick III ,
             Ken Shaw ,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "Michael J. Pierce" ,
             "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
             Randall Shortridge ,
             "Robert R. Black" , rpc man 
 References: 
             1




Proclus,
    The article doesn't give you the background history which caused all
of this uproar.....

In July of this year a number of people decided to have their names
removed from the rolls of the church because of the Church's involvement
in the California Knight initiative.  In the course of trying to get
their names removed, many of the people received unsolicited (after
expressly stating their desire for no contact from the church) visits or
phone calls.  Sometimes, these actually amounted to what could only be
called harrassment.   Whenever possible, the Bishop would look for cause
to excommunicate, rather than allow the removal.  In other cases, like
ours, the letters are being ignored, even when the procedure followed is
exactly as outlined in the handbook.

  To assist these people in getting their names removed with a minimum
of trouble, the Tanners posted the contents of the Church handbook.
This was a valuable resource to people having trouble getting their
names removed.  The Church appears to have finally noticed that a number
of people are asking to have their names removed and are all following
the procedures outlined in the Church handbook.  Now, even following the
procedures, no longer works.

The following paragraph comes from the woman spearheading the name
removal campaign in Utah:
The right to unilaterally terminate your membership in a church exists
under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.  This right
was confirmed in the case of  Guinn v. The Church of Christ of
Collinsville (1989) 775 P.2d 766, a case which was followed in the
Montana case of Davis v. the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.

Once again it appears that the Church is placing itself above the law.

-Kathleen




Subject: 
         [Fwd: proclus wakes up]
    Date: 
         Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:49:07 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , 




 


     Subject: 
             Re: proclus wakes up
       Date: 
             Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:13:35 -0500
      From: 
             proclus 
         To: 
             Kathleen 
 References: 
             1 , 2



In this connection, some of you might be interested in the discussion
over on Slashdot.  Super critical geeks take on Mormonism. Here are some
of the subject lines.

Have you ever actually known a Mormon? 
On hating the sin but loving the sinner 
Utah vs Arizona Mormons 
Re:So, how many wives do you have? 
Those silly mormons,
Mormons Getting Uppity. 
Re:The Tanners knew what they were doing. 
Book of Mormon "links" King James Translation :-) (Score:0)

This one was pretty interesting:
> Did the Tanners ever get linked on Yahoo? (Score:2, Interesting)
> by Travoltus (travoltus@hot.mail.com) on Friday December 10, @12:34PM EST
> 
> If I were the Tanners, I'd have gotten my site Yahoo'd so maybe the spiders
would
> have linked the other site as well. Oops. Haha. By the time the courts got to
it,
> everyone would be posting the Yahoo'd links on /., people would archive it,
> and
it
> would show up on the Christmas Islands or in Tonga or Niue, etc., and of
> course
> Yahoo!, the remaining leak in the US, would get majorly sued. 
> 
> Then everyone would know what was up, and the Mormons (no offense, I like the
> guys but this time they've gone a little too far) would be screwed! Freedom
rides
> again! 


Some of these are just hilarious!  Here's the link.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/12/10/1043252&mode=thread&threshold=0

Regards,
proclus




-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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Subject: 
             Re: Hi there!
       Date: 
             Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:17:15 -0500
      From: 
             proclus 
         To: 
             love@DIN.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
 References: 
             1




Of course you are back in!  (There is only one way out.)  You were very
much  missed.  I'm  BCC'ing this, just to make sure you are you =}.  If
there is a problem with the identity, mutants will hopefully speak up. 
Otherwise, you are back in.

BTW, was that you who created a little stir on the Mother in Heaven list
recently?  I'm a lurker ;-}.

Best Regards and Welcome Back!
proclus

FYI, Here is a list of recent discussions.  We currently have a little
thing going on about the Church lawsuit against the Tanners.  I will try
and get those messages up on the website soon.

discus27.html
discus28.html
discus29.html


Gaia D  wrote:
> 
> Hey Proclus!
> Remember me???
> SurpriSe --  Like a bad penny, here i am, back again!
> It's been a loooong time, but i'm delighted to find
> you and the "gang" again!
> Do i need to do anything special to join RM's, or have
> the two letters i sent yesterday gotten me "in"?
> I desperately need some connection with other mutants
> right now.....it's been a tough year.
> Hope things are well with you -
> Please write!
> Blessings  --
> Gaia
> (currently Gaia_D@yahoo.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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Subject: 
        RE: proclus wakes up
   Date: 
        Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:53:22 -0800 (PST)
  From: 
        Dave Combe 
     To: 
        "McGuire, Andy" ,
        'proclus' ,
        Andy Mcguire ,
        ArtdeHoyos ,
        Beth any ,
        Enoch Shemna ,
        Joe Steve Swick III ,
        Kathleen McGuire ,
        Ken Shaw ,
        Kerry Shirts ,
        "Michael J. Pierce" ,
        onandagus@webtv.net,
        "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
        Randall Shortridge ,
        "Robert R. Black" ,
        rpc man 




I have commented on this on other lists:

BYU, like many other colleges and universities, offers
internship credit for participation in political
campaigns.  I myself was the Carter for Pres chair at
BYU, a most thankless job, but, which was accepted by
the university with no ill impact on me.
  
This ad just ran in the Universe.  Assuming that
university policy is followed for internships, why
shouldn't BYU give credit, if the work is done?  And I
say this as a gay man, in CA, totally opposed to
Knight. I hope we don't just believe in democratic
debate if our side wins.  I am also assuming that BYU
would similarily give credit for those participating
in the anti-Knight side.  If they would not, then it
becomes a different issue. of cource.

Dave (the silent one who reads but hardly ever talks)

--- "McGuire, Andy" 
wrote:
> This is one of the many reasons that I will no
> longer grace The Beast with
> my money, my presence, or my support.
> 
> Want something else to scratch your head about?  BYU
> is offering class
> credit for students taking Political Intern
> positions in California in
> support of the Knight Initiative.
> 
> -Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: proclus [mailto:proclus@mac.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 6:02 PM
> To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Dave; Enoch
> Shemna; Joe Steve
> Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts;
> Michael J. Pierce;
> onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds;
> Randall Shortridge;
> Robert R. Black; rpc man
> Subject: proclus wakes up
> 
> 
> Uh...  Is the Church really trying to kill the web?
> 
>
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/cyber/cyberlaw/10law.html
> 
> Regards,
> proclus
> 
> -- 
> Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> b !DI D- G
> e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com



Subject: 
        RE: proclus wakes up
   Date: 
        Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:55:10 -0500
  From: 
        "McGuire, Andy" 
     To: 
        'proclus' ,
        Andy Mcguire ,
        ArtdeHoyos ,
        Beth any ,
        Dave ,
        Enoch Shemna ,
        Joe Steve Swick III ,
        Kathleen McGuire ,
        Ken Shaw ,
        Kerry Shirts ,
        "Michael J. Pierce" ,
        onandagus@webtv.net,
        "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
        Randall Shortridge ,
        "Robert R. Black" ,
        rpc man 




This is one of the many reasons that I will no longer grace The Beast with
my money, my presence, or my support.

Want something else to scratch your head about?  BYU is offering class
credit for students taking Political Intern positions in California in
support of the Knight Initiative.

-Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: proclus [mailto:proclus@mac.com]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 6:02 PM
To: Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Dave; Enoch Shemna; Joe Steve
Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce;
onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge;
Robert R. Black; rpc man
Subject: proclus wakes up


Uh...  Is the Church really trying to kill the web?

http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/cyber/cyberlaw/10law.html

Regards,
proclus

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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Subject: 
         cannabis cookies
    Date: 
         Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:46:10 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




Did anyone else catch this story?  I about laffed my head off.

http://rulds2.com/news/view.asp?loc=http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/9912/15/A40146-1999Dec15.shtml&popType=lds

Regards,
proclus


-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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Subject: 
           Re: Information on the Fool
      Date: 
           Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:42:25 -0500
     From: 
           proclus 
       To: 
           Andy Mcguire ,
           ArtdeHoyos ,
           Beth any ,
           Dave ,
           Enoch Shemna ,
           Joe Steve Swick III ,
           Kathleen McGuire ,
           Ken Shaw ,
           Kerry Shirts ,
           "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
           proclus ,
           "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
           Randall Shortridge ,
           "Robert R. Black" ,
           rpc man , 
 References: 
           1




I'm so sorry I took so long.  I'm writing now... very
focused.  
Anyways,  Here are the links if you don't already have
them.  I grepped
the archive, and it looks like the tarot intensive
material starts at 17
an builds from there.  (check out these #'s!)


discus17.html
discus18.html
discus19.html
discus20.html
discus21.html
discus22.html
discus23.html

There appears to be a little older material in 7 and 9.

discus7.html
discus9.html

Please let me know if there is any problem with this
frequently
requested material.

Lots of reading ahead for you ;-}.

Happy Millenium All!
proclus



Beth Quick wrote:
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> 
> I'd like to be pointed in the right direction to the
tarot discussion too,
> sorry if this is some ancient post. I haven't had time
to wade through the
> archives yet.
> 
> I just started a new job in Oakland recently for a book
distributor
> called Bookpeople, an employee owned company, it's
pretty cool. I work in a
> warehouse with about 40,000 books. They specialize in
> independent books and indy bookstores. I run accross
some great titles. I'll
> have to feed some to y'all once in awhile.
> 
> Here's a few...
> 
> Sophia, Goddess of Wisdom by well known celtic writer
Caitlin Matthews.
> 
> The Return of the Feminine Christ by Niamh Clune.
Interesting personal
> experiences, poetry and visions of one woman. Haunting.
Lyrically written. I
> haven't finished it yet. The Grail figures into
> things.
> 
> There's also a book entitled... Swedenbourg and
Esoteric Islam, I don't
> recall the author. Interesting combo though.
> 
> More to come...
> 
> Elizabeth Quick
> 
> >From: proclus 
> >To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos
> >,        Beth any
, Dave
> >,        Enoch Shemna
,        Joe
> >Steve Swick III ,
Kathleen McGuire
> >, Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts
> >,        "Michael J.
Pierce"
> >,        "onandagus@webtv.net"
> >,        proclus
, "R. Trent
> >Reynolds" ,        Randall
Shortridge
> >,        "Robert R. Black"
, rpc man
> >
> >Subject: Re: Information on the Fool
> >Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:53:16 -0500
> >
> >Hi Joe,  We have these discussions in the archives, of
course.  It would
> >take a little digging around to find them.  If you
still need them, I
> >will try and point you in the right direction.
> >
> >Regards,
> >proclus
> >
> >
> >Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello, Mutants:
> > >
> > > Some time ago, Robert and I engaged in a discussion
of Tarot, each
> >posting
> > > comments on Key 0, The Fool.  I have unfortunately
lost our postings on
> >this
> > > subject (including my own), and was hoping that
someone here may have
> >kept a
> > > copy for their own amusement?
> > >
> > > Your assistance in this matter would make me
particularly thankful this
> > > Thanksgiving Weekend!
> > >
> > > Warmest Regards,
> > > Joe Swick
> > > Heretic
> >
> >--
> >Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
> >-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> >Version: 3.1
> >GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N-
!o K- w---
> >!O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b
!DI D- G
> >e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
> >------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Subject: 
        Re: Information on the Fool
   Date: 
        Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:16:00 PST
  From: 
        "Beth Quick" 
     To: 
        proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com,
        ArtdeHoyos@aol.com, ariel144@hotmail.com,
        comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eaglehost.com,
        JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM, kathleen@enol.com,
        kshaw@dalsemi.com, shirtail@cyberhighway.net,
        mpierce@switchsoft.com, onandagus@webtv.net,
        trent@goodnet.com, rds@acsu.buffalo.edu,
        black@accex.net, 




Happy Holidays!

I'd like to be pointed in the right direction to the
tarot discussion too, 
sorry if this is some ancient post. I haven't had time to
wade through the 
archives yet.

I just started a new job in Oakland recently for a book
distributor
called Bookpeople, an employee owned company, it's pretty
cool. I work in a 
warehouse with about 40,000 books. They specialize in
independent books and indy bookstores. I run accross some
great titles. I'll 
have to feed some to y'all once in awhile.

Here's a few...

Sophia, Goddess of Wisdom by well known celtic writer
Caitlin Matthews.

The Return of the Feminine Christ by Niamh Clune.
Interesting personal 
experiences, poetry and visions of one woman. Haunting.
Lyrically written. I 
haven't finished it yet. The Grail figures into
things.

There's also a book entitled... Swedenbourg and Esoteric
Islam, I don't 
recall the author. Interesting combo though.

More to come...

Elizabeth Quick




>From: proclus 
>To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos 
>,        Beth any
, Dave 
>,        Enoch Shemna
,        Joe 
>Steve Swick III ,        Kathleen
McGuire 
>, Ken Shaw ,
Kerry Shirts 
>,        "Michael J. Pierce" 
>,        "onandagus@webtv.net" 
>,        proclus
, "R. Trent 
>Reynolds" ,        Randall Shortridge
>,        "Robert R. Black"
, rpc man 
>
>Subject: Re: Information on the Fool
>Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:53:16 -0500
>
>Hi Joe,  We have these discussions in the archives, of
course.  It would
>take a little digging around to find them.  If you still
need them, I
>will try and point you in the right direction.
>
>Regards,
>proclus
>
>
>Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> >
> > Hello, Mutants:
> >
> > Some time ago, Robert and I engaged in a discussion
of Tarot, each 
>posting
> > comments on Key 0, The Fool.  I have unfortunately
lost our postings on 
>this
> > subject (including my own), and was hoping that
someone here may have 
>kept a
> > copy for their own amusement?
> >
> > Your assistance in this matter would make me
particularly thankful this
> > Thanksgiving Weekend!
> >
> > Warmest Regards,
> > Joe Swick
> > Heretic
>
>--
>Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>Version: 3.1
>GMU/S d+@ s:+ a C++++ UULI++$ P L+++(++++) E--- W++ N-
!o K- w---
>!O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-@ b
!DI D- G
>e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


Subject: 
        [Fwd: Press Release - Please Forward]
   Date: 
        Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:13:12 -0500
  From: 
        proclus 
     To: 
        Andy Mcguire ,
        ArtdeHoyos ,
        Beth any ,
        Dave ,
        Enoch Shemna ,
        Joe Steve Swick III ,
        Kathleen McGuire ,
        Ken Shaw ,
        Kerry Shirts ,
        "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
        proclus ,
        "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
        Randall Shortridge ,
        "Robert R. Black" ,
        rpc man , 




Da.  No time at this moment.  Back later.

Regards,
proclus

-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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 Subject: 
        Press Release - Please Forward
   Date: 
        Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:18:17 PST
  From: 
        "Beth Quick" 
     To: 
        proclus@mac.com
    CC: 
        ariel144@hotmail.com



Let the Mormon Goddess speak!

Now accepting submissions for the first ever anthology on
the Mormon
Goddess.

Seeking: Spiritual Experiences, Dreams, Visions,
Revelations, Art,
Poetry, Essays, Musings, Ramblings, Tributes and more.

In honor of an international grass roots project,
Goddess 2000: A Goddess On Every Block
(a project to welcome the Goddess into the New Millenium
with a Goddess 
image on every block in America and thousands more around
the world) Let's 
let the Mormon Goddess out of the closet this year.

You may wish to be published anonymously or with a nom de
plume.

Please mail submissions to:

Elizabeth Quick
5835 McBryde Ave. Ste. A
Richmond Hills, CA 94805-1150

For further questions email
elizabethquick@hotmail.com

In the name of the Shekinah Bride, Asherah, Sophia,
Magdalene, Mother Earth, 
Our Mother in Heaven,
Amen and Blessed Be!


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





Subject: 
         executive summary
    Date: 
         Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:13:26 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Gaia ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , 




Well, I just reread those links, and I thought that I'd give my favorite
excerpts for those who didn't have time for it.  Happy Holidays, proclus


Sepher Yetzirah---------------------------------------------
To begin with, the idea of sealing. It is Proclus's
intention to explain in an image the méthexis, the participation in the
higher realms by which means something is filled with the idea. In
addition
to having recourse to the old platonic image of the mirror, he makes use
of
that image which Philo and Plotinus had already been fond of using, [65]
the seal. The ideas are what is sealing [das Siegelnde]; they give 'a
trace
and impression of themselves,' íchnos ti eauton kaì typon. [66] The
image
in our book (S. yetzirah)
is used in precisely the same way. The Sefirot are the
transcendent unities of spacial extension; they are its seals which have
been imprinted by the Creator so that "His word is in them," as was said
in
an earlier passage. [67] They are not equivalent to space itself in its
six
extensions, but as its transcendent unities they are simply its seals.
That
which in earlier sentences had been designated as 'inscribe' and
'engrave'
is referred to here by the word for extension, 'turn towards,' extend,
or
cause to issue, ph'neh. (That made a big impression on me, hehe,
proclus)

Another idea to which our book testifies was later firmly adhered to
within
the totality of Jewish mysticism: the idea of Israel as chosen. It is
Abraham
who was called to mystical knowledge, as our book concludes. He is the
one to whom the Sefirot were revealed and who reached the point in the
center. It is with him and his descendents that God made a covenant. In
so
doing, a danger of mysticism was averted. All mysticism emphasizes the
individual in isolation from the community, and this can easily lead to
an
antagonistic relationship. [71] Through clear and constant emphasis upon
this idea of 'the chosen,' the individual was made aware of his place
within
the community and his intimate connection to it.  (According to a recent
video presentation, this community building is the mark of the greatest
prophets, incl. J. Smith. proclus)


Proclus Homepage--------------------------------------------
So far, I have not yet proven my point that the return to Nous does
actual involve
theurgical ritual. For, as I noted at the beginning of this paper,
scholars tend to
distinguish between a higher type of theurgy which does not involve
ritual and a lower
one which does. In both cases likeness and sympatheia play their role,
but in the former
case no ritual seems to be involved. It is commonly understood to be an
internal
process, in which we link innate symbols to a higher reality. The
digression about
stones, plants and animals which are sympathetic to the sun in Theol.
Plat. VI c. 4
would then only serve to explain how the lower kind of theurgy works.
How it is
possible, for example, to attract a sun-demon by means of a sun-stone
and in that way
practice the white magic that Anne Sheppard identifies as the lowest
kind of theurgy. I
will thus have to come up with a clear example of a rite in which a
leader-god is
invoked in order to place us in Nous.



To conclude. According to Proclus, only divine Nous is capable of
contemplating the
Forms. Since the divine Nous is identical with the Demiurge, i.e. the
Father of the
universe, and since every effect strives after reversion to its cause,
the human soul can
contemplate the Forms if it manages to return to the Demiurge, which may
be referred
to as reaching the paternal harbour. The leader-gods discussed in Theol.
Plat. VI play
an important role in the return of the human soul, because they are the
intermediate
causal principles between us and the Demiurge. They are characterized by
likeness,
which is mirrored in all their products. This likeness that causes and
products share is
the basis sympatheia, the driving force behind theurgy. Proclus uses
theurgical ritual,
based on this sympatheia, to attract the leader-gods in order to be
elevated towards the
divine Nous. At least some of Proclus' hymns were part of these
rituals.  (According to scholars, P. sees this reversion to the cause as
the closing
of a circle.  This I doubt.  "God is a spiral form....", Regards)


-- 
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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r+++ y++++ 
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



Subject: 
rris?
    Date: 
         Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:43:47 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




That's a name I haven't heard in a while.  If any one knows what Stephie
is up to these days, could you pass the word on?  THx!

Regards,
proclus


-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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 Subject: 
         homePage
    Date: 
         Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:06:11 -0700
   From: 
         "Robinette Desrochers" 
     To: 
         



Hey Mike,
 
Have you by any chance heard anything from Steph (Stephenie Orris) from the old
Prodigy
boards????
 
Robin aka Thunder
 
PS....got your link from Andy and Kathleen


Subject: 
         RE: To All My Friends, Old and New!
    Date: 
         Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:40:58 -0700
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         Val Wheeler , Linda Castle ,
         Donna Peterson , Chris Wright
,
         Dave Wright , Karin Wheeler ,
         "'proclus'" ,
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Enoch Shemna ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "Michael J. Pierce" , 





----------
From:   Joe Steve Swick III[SMTP:jswick@mindspring.com]
Sent:   Saturday, January 01, 2000 12:42 AM
To:     Val Wheeler; Linda Castle; Donna Peterson; Chris Wright; Dave Wright; 
Joe Swick; Karin Wheeler; 'proclus'; Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; 
Enoch Shemna; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts; Michael J. Pierce; 
R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge; Robert R. Black; rpc man; Wanda; 
Curtis Porritt; Gail Porritt; Stephen Escobedo; McMillan, Jerry; 
Elamana@aol.com; Clark Goble; Randall Larsen; Nick Literski; nick diprima; 
Stan Shepp; Dave Kuper; George Head; George Turner; Dagny Taggart; Beth 
Peterson; mormon-prophecy@egroups.com; Mormon-polygamy; 
pfcase-l@dragon.org; Don Bradley; Jerry Neufeld-Kaiser; 
jerrywhitney@uswest.net; Darrell Weaver; Deric Glissmeyer; Cyril Huang; 
David Bowie; Dean Brink; John Livie; Hadley V. Baxendale; Gregg, Joseph; 
Gaia D; esenzee@discoverynet.com; Bruce Davie; bksmith (bekus); 
joseph@absalom.com; RAZZ2017@aol.com; Mom; rpotter@aros.net; 
paul_c_graham@yahoo.com; paynecabin@aol.com; geoducker@aol.com; 
AnneWilde@aol.com; Dale Broadhurst; Clangreen@juno.com; Cook SLC; Jennifer 
Taylor; jrose@oz.net; KATHY  CHRISTENSEN; Ken and Leslie Peterson; Mike 
Busby; Mike Sandberg; Home (me); richard hone; Richard Livingston; Wayne N. 
Reeves; Yuki Yoshida; Nathan Taylor; Richard Hiltbrunn
Subject:        To All My Friends, Old and New!


Best Wishes for the new year,
new century
and new millennium
to all those who have touched my life!

Here Here!!!! May the bird of Kabbalise fly up our nose! GRIN!

Kerry A. "Silly as all get out tonight, but I won 5 games of chess in a row 
and that is enough to make anyone who plays rather giddy" Shirts








Subject: 
         RE: executive summary
    Date: 
         Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:51:08 -0700
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Gaia ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




Man! Sounds Gnostic to me.......GRIN!

Kerry A. "Happy Millenium to all, it's 5 days into it and just what the 
hell have we accomplished yet?!$*%&%^&$(#&^%*(&%*(%" GRIN! Shirts

----------
From:   proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
Sent:   Sunday, December 26, 1999 9:13 PM
To:     Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Dave; Enoch Shemna; Gaia; Joe 
Steve Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts; 
onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge; Robert 
R. Black; rpc man
Subject:        executive summary

Well, I just reread those links, and I thought that I'd give my favorite
excerpts for those who didn't have time for it.  Happy Holidays, proclus


Sepher Yetzirah---------------------------------------------
To begin with, the idea of sealing. It is Proclus's
intention to explain in an image the méthexis, the participation in the
higher realms by which means something is filled with the idea. In
addition
to having recourse to the old platonic image of the mirror, he makes use
of
that image which Philo and Plotinus had already been fond of using, [65]
the seal. The ideas are what is sealing [das Siegelnde]; they give 'a
trace
and impression of themselves,' íchnos ti eauton kaì typon. [66] The
image
in our book (S. yetzirah)
is used in precisely the same way. The Sefirot are the
transcendent unities of spacial extension; they are its seals which have
been imprinted by the Creator so that "His word is in them," as was said
in
an earlier passage. [67] They are not equivalent to space itself in its
six
extensions, but as its transcendent unities they are simply its seals.
That
which in earlier sentences had been designated as 'inscribe' and
'engrave'
is referred to here by the word for extension, 'turn towards,' extend,
or
cause to issue, ph'neh. (That made a big impression on me, hehe,
proclus)

Another idea to which our book testifies was later firmly adhered to
within
the totality of Jewish mysticism: the idea of Israel as chosen. It is
Abraham
who was called to mystical knowledge, as our book concludes. He is the
one to whom the Sefirot were revealed and who reached the point in the
center. It is with him and his descendents that God made a covenant. In
so
doing, a danger of mysticism was averted. All mysticism emphasizes the
individual in isolation from the community, and this can easily lead to
an
antagonistic relationship. [71] Through clear and constant emphasis upon
this idea of 'the chosen,' the individual was made aware of his place
within
the community and his intimate connection to it.  (According to a recent
video presentation, this community building is the mark of the greatest
prophets, incl. J. Smith. proclus)


Proclus Homepage--------------------------------------------
So far, I have not yet proven my point that the return to Nous does
actual involve
theurgical ritual. For, as I noted at the beginning of this paper,
scholars tend to
distinguish between a higher type of theurgy which does not involve
ritual and a lower
one which does. In both cases likeness and sympatheia play their role,
but in the former
case no ritual seems to be involved. It is commonly understood to be an
internal
process, in which we link innate symbols to a higher reality. The
digression about
stones, plants and animals which are sympathetic to the sun in Theol.
Plat. VI c. 4
would then only serve to explain how the lower kind of theurgy works.
How it is
possible, for example, to attract a sun-demon by means of a sun-stone
and in that way
practice the white magic that Anne Sheppard identifies as the lowest
kind of theurgy. I
will thus have to come up with a clear example of a rite in which a
leader-god is
invoked in order to place us in Nous.



To conclude. According to Proclus, only divine Nous is capable of
contemplating the
Forms. Since the divine Nous is identical with the Demiurge, i.e. the
Father of the
universe, and since every effect strives after reversion to its cause,
the human soul can
contemplate the Forms if it manages to return to the Demiurge, which may
be referred
to as reaching the paternal harbour. The leader-gods discussed in Theol.
Plat. VI play
an important role in the return of the human soul, because they are the
intermediate
causal principles between us and the Demiurge. They are characterized by
likeness,
which is mirrored in all their products. This likeness that causes and
products share is
the basis sympatheia, the driving force behind theurgy. Proclus uses
theurgical ritual,
based on this sympatheia, to attract the leader-gods in order to be
elevated towards the
divine Nous. At least some of Proclus' hymns were part of these
rituals.  (According to scholars, P. sees this reversion to the cause as
the closing
of a circle.  This I doubt.  "God is a spiral form....", Regards)


--
Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


Subject: 
         That gal has a point!
    Date: 
         Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:10:56 -0700
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man ,
         Gaia D , 




Thought you guys might enjoy this one...

Husband is at home watching a football game when his wife interrupts,
"Honey, could you fix the light in the hallway? It's been flickering for
weeks now."

He looks at her and says angrily. "Fix the light? Now? Does it look like I
have a G.E. logo printed on my forehead? I don't think so."

"Well then, could you fix the fridge door? It won't close right."

To which he replied, "Fix the fridge door? Does it look like I have
Westinghouse written on my forehead? I don't think so."

"Fine," she says "then you could at least fix the steps to the front door?
They¹re about to break."

"I¹m not a damn carpenter and I don't want to fix steps," he says. "Does it
look like I have ACE Hardware written on my forehead? I don't think so. I've
had enough of this. I'm going to the bar!!!"

So he goes to the bar and drinks for a couple hours. He starts to feel
guilty about how he treated his wife, and decides to go home and help out.
As he walks into the house he notices the steps are already fixed. As he
enters the house, he sees the hall light is working. As he goes to get a
beer, he notices the fridge door is fixed.

"Honey, how'd all this get fixed?"

She said, "Well, when you left I sat outside and cried. Just then a nice
young man asked me what was wrong, and I told him. He offered to do all the
repairs, and all I had to do was either go to bed with him or bake a cake."

He said, "so what kind of cake did you bake him?"

She replied, "Hellooooo... Do you see Betty Crocker written on my forehead?"


Subject: 
         RE: Information on the Fool
    Date: 
         Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:19:09 -0700
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         "proclus@mac.com" ,
         "MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com" ,
         "ArtdeHoyos@aol.com" ,
         "comdb@yahoo.com" ,
         "enoch144@eaglehost.com" ,
         "JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM" ,
         "kathleen@enol.com" ,
         "kshaw@dalsemi.com" ,
         "shirtail@cyberhighway.net" ,
         "mpierce@switchsoft.com" ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         "trent@goodnet.com" ,
         "rds@acsu.buffalo.edu" ,
         "black@accex.net" ,
         "rpcman@hotmail.com" , 




Beth dahhhhlink.......

Tell us more about all these wonderful books......

Kerry A. Shirts

----------
From:   Beth Quick[SMTP:ariel144@hotmail.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 22, 1999 1:16 AM
To:     proclus@mac.com; MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com; ArtdeHoyos@aol.com; 
ariel144@hotmail.com; comdb@yahoo.com; enoch144@eaglehost.com; 
JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM; kathleen@enol.com; kshaw@dalsemi.com; 
shirtail@cyberhighway.net; mpierce@switchsoft.com; onandagus@webtv.net; 
trent@goodnet.com; rds@acsu.buffalo.edu; black@accex.net; 
rpcman@hotmail.com
Subject:        Re: Information on the Fool

Happy Holidays!

I'd like to be pointed in the right direction to the tarot discussion too,
sorry if this is some ancient post. I haven't had time to wade through the
archives yet.

I just started a new job in Oakland recently for a book distributor
called Bookpeople, an employee owned company, it's pretty cool. I work in a 
warehouse with about 40,000 books. They specialize in
independent books and indy bookstores. I run accross some great titles. 
I'll
have to feed some to y'all once in awhile.

Here's a few...

Sophia, Goddess of Wisdom by well known celtic writer Caitlin Matthews.

The Return of the Feminine Christ by Niamh Clune. Interesting personal
experiences, poetry and visions of one woman. Haunting. Lyrically written. 
I
haven't finished it yet. The Grail figures into
things.

There's also a book entitled... Swedenbourg and Esoteric Islam, I don't
recall the author. Interesting combo though.

More to come...

Elizabeth Quick




>From: proclus 
>To: Andy Mcguire , ArtdeHoyos
>,        Beth any , Dave
>,        Enoch Shemna , 
       Joe
>Steve Swick III ,        Kathleen McGuire
>, Ken Shaw ,        Kerry Shirts
>,        "Michael J. Pierce"
>,        "onandagus@webtv.net"
>,        proclus , "R. Trent
>Reynolds" ,        Randall Shortridge
>,        "Robert R. Black" , rpc 
man
>
>Subject: Re: Information on the Fool
>Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:53:16 -0500
>
>Hi Joe,  We have these discussions in the archives, of course.  It would
>take a little digging around to find them.  If you still need them, I
>will try and point you in the right direction.
>
>Regards,
>proclus
>
>
>Joe Steve Swick III wrote:
> >
> > Hello, Mutants:
> >
> > Some time ago, Robert and I engaged in a discussion of Tarot, each
>posting
> > comments on Key 0, The Fool.  I have unfortunately lost our postings on 
>this
> > subject (including my own), and was hoping that someone here may have
>kept a
> > copy for their own amusement?
> >
> > Your assistance in this matter would make me particularly thankful this
> > Thanksgiving Weekend!
> >
> > Warmest Regards,
> > Joe Swick
> > Heretic
>
>--
>Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



Subject: 
         My dearest Mutants
    Date: 
         Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:29:10 -0700
   From: 
         Kerry Shirts 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man ,
         Gaia D , "'proclus'" , 




OK, OK, I have been way too scarce, so one of my millenial resolutions is 
to get with it and make this list a blast to be on as well as informative, 
radical, and just a fun free for all sprawl and walk in the books. By the 
way, if Kathleen is still hanging around these parts, what say we all put 
on another get together? I missed the last one (DANG IT!), and think it 
would be choice and a cherished moment of our millenium for us to all meet 
together and rumble, er rub shoulders, and who knows what else, woops! I 
promised I wouldn't get that way......GRIN!

Kerry


Subject: 
             To All My Friends, Old and New!
       Date: 
             Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:42:11 -0800
      From: 
             "Joe Steve Swick III" 
         To: 
             "Val Wheeler" ,
             "Linda Castle" ,
             "Donna Peterson" ,
             "Chris Wright" , "Dave Wright"
,
             "Joe Swick" ,
             "Karin Wheeler" , "'proclus'"
,
             "Andy Mcguire" ,
             "ArtdeHoyos" ,
             "Beth any" ,
             "Enoch Shemna" ,
             "Kathleen McGuire" ,
             "Ken Shaw" ,
             "Kerry Shirts" , 
 References: 
             1




Best Wishes for the new year, 
new century 
and new millennium 
to all those who have touched my life!  







         Steph 



Subject: 
         Happy Millenium
    Date: 
         Fri, 31 Dec 1999 19:30:06 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




We are watching the ABC coverage on TV.  I'm so impressed.  One world,
at the end of a the TV century.  Washington is such a bore with that Y2K
response center.  NPR is clueless, covering non-existent computer
glitches and religious fanatics.  The real story is that just maybe we
have finally figured out how to live.

Best Wishes and see you in 2100.
proclus


-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------




Subject: 
             Re: My dearest Mutants
       Date: 
             Sat, 08 Jan 2000 13:05:20 -0500
      From: 
             proclus 
         To: 
             Andy Mcguire ,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Joe Steve Swick III ,
             Kathleen McGuire ,
             Ken Shaw ,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
             proclus ,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
             Randall Shortridge ,
             "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 
 References: 
             1




Kerry Shirts wrote:
> if Kathleen is still hanging around these parts, what say we all put
> on another get together? I missed the last one (DANG IT!), and think it
> would be choice and a cherished moment of our millenium for us to all meet
> together and rumble, er rub shoulders, and who knows what else, woops! I
> promised I wouldn't get that way......GRIN!
> 
> Kerry

Kerry, this sounz like a great idea.  For me, I've still got my grad
school blinders on.  I expect to re-enter the real world sometime this
year.  Who knows what the future holds;  maybe more travel ;-}.

Regards,
proclus


-- 
Visit proclus realm!  http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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e++>++++ h--- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------





Subject: 
             Re: executive summary
       Date: 
             Sat, 08 Jan 2000 13:27:25 -0500
      From: 
             proclus 
         To: 
             Andy Mcguire ,
             ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
             Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
             Joe Steve Swick III ,
             Kathleen McGuire ,
             Ken Shaw ,
             Kerry Shirts ,
             "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
             proclus ,
             "R. Trent Reynolds" ,
             Randall Shortridge ,
             "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 
 References: 
             1




Kerry Shirts wrote:
> 
> Man! Sounds Gnostic to me.......GRIN!

Ha!  funny you should say so.  Back in the early days, Ken would have
reminded us that it was the Sufis who went around seeding these ideas. 
Remember the "beads of mercury"?

In this connection, I worked up a little dittie last Thursday.  Any
wacky thelemite mormons might like to check it out.  Nibley-oids might
be amused as well.  Keep it to yourselves though, please.  It is still a
little rough.  Any comments will be appreciated.

http://medici.penguinpowered.com/gods.html

Regards,
proclus


> 
> Kerry A. "Happy Millenium to all, it's 5 days into it and just what the
> hell have we accomplished yet?!$*%&%^&$(#&^%*(&%*(%" GRIN! Shirts
> 
> ----------
> From:   proclus[SMTP:proclus@mac.com]
> Sent:   Sunday, December 26, 1999 9:13 PM
> To:     Andy Mcguire; ArtdeHoyos; Beth any; Dave; Enoch Shemna; Gaia; Joe
> Steve Swick III; Kathleen McGuire; Ken Shaw; Kerry Shirts;
> onandagus@webtv.net; proclus; R. Trent Reynolds; Randall Shortridge; Robert
> R. Black; rpc man
> Subject:        executive summary
> 
> Well, I just reread those links, and I thought that I'd give my favorite
> excerpts for those who didn't have time for it.  Happy Holidays, proclus
> 
> Sepher Yetzirah---------------------------------------------
> To begin with, the idea of sealing. It is Proclus's
> intention to explain in an image the méthexis, the participation in the
> higher realms by which means something is filled with the idea. In
> addition
> to having recourse to the old platonic image of the mirror, he makes use
> of
> that image which Philo and Plotinus had already been fond of using, [65]
> the seal. The ideas are what is sealing [das Siegelnde]; they give 'a
> trace
> and impression of themselves,' íchnos ti eauton kaì typon. [66] The
> image
> in our book (S. yetzirah)
> is used in precisely the same way. The Sefirot are the
> transcendent unities of spacial extension; they are its seals which have
> been imprinted by the Creator so that "His word is in them," as was said
> in
> an earlier passage. [67] They are not equivalent to space itself in its
> six
> extensions, but as its transcendent unities they are simply its seals.
> That
> which in earlier sentences had been designated as 'inscribe' and
> 'engrave'
> is referred to here by the word for extension, 'turn towards,' extend,
> or
> cause to issue, ph'neh. (That made a big impression on me, hehe,
> proclus)
> 
> Another idea to which our book testifies was later firmly adhered to
> within
> the totality of Jewish mysticism: the idea of Israel as chosen. It is
> Abraham
> who was called to mystical knowledge, as our book concludes. He is the
> one to whom the Sefirot were revealed and who reached the point in the
> center. It is with him and his descendents that God made a covenant. In
> so
> doing, a danger of mysticism was averted. All mysticism emphasizes the
> individual in isolation from the community, and this can easily lead to
> an
> antagonistic relationship. [71] Through clear and constant emphasis upon
> this idea of 'the chosen,' the individual was made aware of his place
> within
> the community and his intimate connection to it.  (According to a recent
> video presentation, this community building is the mark of the greatest
> prophets, incl. J. Smith. proclus)
> 
> Proclus Homepage--------------------------------------------
> So far, I have not yet proven my point that the return to Nous does
> actual involve
> theurgical ritual. For, as I noted at the beginning of this paper,
> scholars tend to
> distinguish between a higher type of theurgy which does not involve
> ritual and a lower
> one which does. In both cases likeness and sympatheia play their role,
> but in the former
> case no ritual seems to be involved. It is commonly understood to be an
> internal
> process, in which we link innate symbols to a higher reality. The
> digression about
> stones, plants and animals which are sympathetic to the sun in Theol.
> Plat. VI c. 4
> would then only serve to explain how the lower kind of theurgy works.
> How it is
> possible, for example, to attract a sun-demon by means of a sun-stone
> and in that way
> practice the white magic that Anne Sheppard identifies as the lowest
> kind of theurgy. I
> will thus have to come up with a clear example of a rite in which a
> leader-god is
> invoked in order to place us in Nous.
> 
> To conclude. According to Proclus, only divine Nous is capable of
> contemplating the
> Forms. Since the divine Nous is identical with the Demiurge, i.e. the
> Father of the
> universe, and since every effect strives after reversion to its cause,
> the human soul can
> contemplate the Forms if it manages to return to the Demiurge, which may
> be referred
> to as reaching the paternal harbour. The leader-gods discussed in Theol.
> Plat. VI play
> an important role in the return of the human soul, because they are the
> intermediate
> causal principles between us and the Demiurge. They are characterized by
> likeness,
> which is mirrored in all their products. This likeness that causes and
> products share is
> the basis sympatheia, the driving force behind theurgy. Proclus uses
> theurgical ritual,
> based on this sympatheia, to attract the leader-gods in order to be
> elevated towards the
> divine Nous. At least some of Proclus' hymns were part of these
> rituals.  (According to scholars, P. sees this reversion to the cause as
> the closing
> of a circle.  This I doubt.  "God is a spiral form....", Regards)
> 
> --
> Visit proclus' realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/
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Subject: 
         genetic heretage
    Date: 
         Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:14:59 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




You might want to check out the most recent top story in Radical.  It is
a perfect example of what it means to be a radical mormon IMHO.  Here
are the quick links.

dna2.html
http://greenspun.com/com/radical.mormon/dna2.html

Regards,
proclus

-- 
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Subject: 
         Hyrum!
    Date: 
         Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:25:39 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




Have you seen the excellent portrait of Hyrum on the cover of the
Ensign?  I was thrilled to see this.  Recently, I saw some film footage
of Joseph F. Smith, and I felt that I was seeing the face of Hyrum as
well.  It is so ironic that he maybe didn't remember his father at all,
because he certainly received of his kind spirit and countenance. 
Anyways, it appears that this is probably a very accurate portrait on of
Hyrum on the Ensign cover.  Maybe it will be interesting to read this
one ;-}.

Regards,
proclus

-- 
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Subject: 
         tree of life
    Date: 
         Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:25:52 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




Well, the list has been quiet of late, so I thought that I would forward
some amusing material from extropian.

Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:32:16 -0500
From: Joseph Sterlynne 
Subject: RE: Tree of Life

> Anders Sandberg

>Let's make a fruit salad from the trees of knowledge and life! I guess
>it would be delicious with a little bit of whipped cream.

I'm sure, if you like fruit salad.  Just the other day I was walking by
the Tree of Life.  I leaped past the rotating flaming sword (you know,
it's just like in Dragon's Lair---you just wait until the right moment,
listen carefully for the grunts, then tap the joystick just right. . .
.)
and got some of the fruit.  The apples make a particularly nice chutney.
But God showed up and was a little bothered.

 God: Hey!  What do you think you're doing?

  Me: Uh, freely partaking of the Tree of Life.  Why?

 God: How did you get past the flaming sword?  They told me that thing
was
      guaranteed!  I mean, there are flames on it!

  Me: It says how to somewhere in an old issue of [Electronic Games], I
      think.

 God: Well, I don't care.  The patent laws in the Garden are pretty
      strict.  Do you think that this is the Free Fruit Foundation or
      something?  My one-pick shopping method means that you can only
take
      one piece of fruit.  Then you're out.

  Me: What about a pointed stick?

 God: Shut up!

  Me: Look, I've got better things to do than argue with imaginary
beings
      about magic fruit.  When I get nanotech I'll be able to make all
the
      fruit I want from snow and paper towels.  But I won't even bother
      because I'll be busy doing things like carking myself into the
black
      hole at the center of the galaxy and figuring out how to get
myself
      off of Banana Republic's catalog mailing list.  So get rid of that
      silly sword and those pretentious white robes and do something
      useful.  Zyvex could use a synthetic organic chemist.  Think you
      might be interested?

 God: Uh, y--yeah, actually.  I--I'll apply right away.

  Me: Good.  You'll need new bibles; they can found through links at
      www.foresight.org.

Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:53:03 -0500
From: Robert Owen 
Subject: Re: Tree of Life

- --------------D5AA9E12A73996EA2FED976D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

rick strongitharm wrote:

> I'd forgotten how important it is to the Christian version of God, that
> humans
not
> live for ever.

There is still, Rick, the esoteric tradition of the Diamond Body,
an idea borrowed by Christianity from Tantric Buddhism.

We find this idea reappearing in Alchemist writings:

"When a man undertakes to create something," wrote Paracelsus,
"he establishes a new heaven, as it were, and from it the work
that he desires to create flows into him." In order that it may be
expressed, that it may resound, the Word must be made flesh;
immortality must be incarnated outwardly in gold and inwardly in
the development of a subtle body within this ordinary body: the
"glorious body" or "diamond body" [or] the "spiritual body " of the
Christian.[1]

My focus here is neither on Christianity nor Buddhism, but on one
cultural antecedent of of avant-garde transhumanism.

Bob



Regards,
proclus


-- 
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ubject: 
         [Fwd: mutantRMs - suggested URL]
    Date: 
         Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:10:24 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




Here is a little something that came in by email.  Enjoy!

Regards,
proclus

-- 
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      Subject: 
              mutantRMs - suggested URL
        Date: 
              Tue, 15 Feb 2000 02:31:28 -0600
        From: 
              Preston Hunter 
 Organization: 
              http://www.adherents.com
          To: 
              mutants@iname.com



suggested URL:

http://www.adherents.com/lit/sf_lds.html

Mainstream science fiction with LDS characters and references.

Over 100 movies and books listed.

See what Philip K. Dick, Greg Bear, Robert Heinlein, Carl Sagan, etc. have to
say about Mormons.

Preston Hunter
www.adherents.com




Subject: 
             Re: gawainEssay
       Date: 
             Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:44:38 -0500
      From: 
             proclus 
         To: 
             dientyness@netzero.net
 References: 
             1




> dientyness@netzero.net wrote:
> 
> could you please help me to explain christian element in gawain

That is a big question.  Do you have something more particular in mind? 
It is a christian story and analogy written by christians for
christians.  The key to this puzzle must be the redemption of Gawain and
everything that he represents.  That redemption culminates in the green
chapel and finishes with the return of Gawain to court.  It is not hard
to see the soul's redemptive journey in this.

Furthermore, Gawain can be viewed an image of Christ.  He slays the
dragon in the form of the Green Knight in Arthur's court.  He is like
the scapegoat of the hebrews, who carries the guilt away from the
court.  Many christians see the scapegoat as presaging Christ.  It is
not a perfect image, though.  There is something irrevocably sinister
about the scapegoat, who makes off with his life intact.  Other animals
were not nearly as lucky in the ceremonies of the hebrews.

In my twisted imagination, I see that Green Knight as an image of Christ
as well.  He is also abit of a scapegoat, no?  He also spares Gawain's
life.  What about the coquette, who gives Gawain a "pearl" for his
plight?  Certainly, death avoidance, represented in the green sash, is
involved somehow in the redemption from death.  In that light, the young
lady could be the Christ.  Hmm.  Personally, I find the polygamistic,
paganistic and titanic imagery much more fascinating. Also, the
juxtaposition of Mary and the coquette certainly implies something
sexual to me.  There is much to find in the poem that would be viewed as
"unchristian" by many narrow, modern readers.  Anyways, hopefully that
helps.

Regards,
proclus




-- 
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Subject: 
         Re: Kerry's Inquiry
    Date: 
         Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:13:05 -0800 (PST)
   From: 
         Beth Quick 
     To: 
         proclus@mac.com, MCGUIREA@a1.bellhow.com, ArtdeHoyos@aol.com,
         ariel144@hotmail.com, comdb@yahoo.com, enoch144@eaglehost.com,
         JSWICK@MINDSPRING.COM, kathleen@enol.com, kshaw@dalsemi.com,
         shirtail@cyberhighway.net, onandagus@webtv.net,
tpfamily@dotplanet.net,
         rds@acsu.buffalo.edu, black@accex.net, rpcman@hotmail.com, 




Kerry and all,

Thanks for your inquiry as to my project. Sorry I have been too tied up to 
respond until now. I enclose some correspondence between myself and an 
associate of mine that you may find of interest.

Beth

>From:  Reply-To: To: "Bethany Quick" 
>Subject: tithing
>Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:47:58 -0700
>
>Beth,
>
>Thanks again for your tithing donation to ______.  We appreciate your moral 
>and financial support.
>
>Let me know how your Mormon Goddess project is coming.
>You've chewed off a pretty narrow audience -- those who still consider 
>themselves part of the "Mormon" set and at the same time >are free enough 
>from the box to dare share and talk like this.  I'll >be curious as to 
>whether or not you can crack the mainstream >sufficient to even break even 
>on book sales.
>
>S.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Beth Quick" 
To:
CC:
Subject: Re: tithing
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:15:22 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Originating-IP: [207.21.136.191]
Received: from 207.21.136.191 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
        Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:15:22 PST

Dear _______,

Yes, it would be interesting to talk about the Mormon Goddess project. I am 
the first person to admit that it is way ahead of it's time. I feel that 
it's an interesting experiment that is long term. The experiment may have a 
lot more to do with tweaking peoples' consciousness than obtaining an actual 
result. It may also end up just going into my files as research, to be used 
when I get into
the graduate program in Women?s Spirituality next year.

The funny thing is I have actually heard of quite a few people who have had 
experiences with the "Mormon Goddess".

In some ways it seems like this project may be too late in some ways, too 
early in others.

I feel like even making people aware of the experiment can shift some energy 
in the Mormon collective psyche. It's part of cracking what you're talking 
about. Just it's existence, just putting that out there in the collective 
unconscious WILL shift energy.

I have started out slowly. My millennial exuberance inspired me to leak the 
idea to a few selected Mormon subcultures to gauge the reaction and get 
feedback. Maybe in the future I will do more publicity, to an even more 
eclectic crowd, including a more mainstream but liberal audience. One of my 
hopes actually lie internationally, where hopefully some people may not have 
all the same prejudices as the Utah Mormons on the East Bench.

It may take five years to collect sufficient material, and for an audience 
to even grow; but, I believe if we ask the universe a question it will 
respond. I have put forth a challenge to those within the larger Mormon 
tradition and will continue to do so until I get a response.

Maybe I'll get discouraged, maybe I will not be able to take the heat that 
is sure to be generated. Sometimes I feel a little crazy. Don't ask me why 
this project came to me.

I have hope for the future of the larger independent Mormon tradition. There 
are a bunch of old men running the Utah branch of the church. The old 
structures must die eventually. The new blood coming into the church, 
internationally, is refreshing and promising.

The youth of the church are promising as well. Take my 14 year old sister 
and brother. They are very spiritual and have been raised in the church, but 
they are very open to the concepts of ?past lives?, the Goddess, and similar 
matters. They're so open minded!

Then there is the new independent Mormon subculture that has been exploding 
the last few years, thanks to the Internet. Independent Mormon folk 
subculture does exist; this we know, but it's so fragmented. I long to 
bridge some of these gaps.

Maybe Mormonism, as a tradition, is archaic. Maybe it's dead. I am the 
seventh generation on my maternal line. I think that Mormonism was an 
experiment that was generational in nature. I feel like I was the magical 
number, and all the initiations, and all the myths that I grew up with, 
unlocked an explosion of consciousness within me. It is like the seeds that 
were planted 150 years ago took a magical 7 generations to bear the fruit 
that was the intended result of Experiment Mormonism.

Sometimes I wonder if I make any sense at all, to anyone, but that's OK. I 
just do what I love and try not to give too much power to what others think 
of me; that's not always easy.

I have this feeling that in the future there are going to be a lot of 
displaced Mormon women. They are going to be starving, and searching  for 
information, and desiring to explore their own Divine Nature. I hope I'll be 
able to work with some of them.

Do you feel that our tradition, which I do hold dear, is still relevant? I 
feel like every culture has a piece of the puzzle and that the Dispensation 
of the Fullness of Times is where all the puzzle pieces come together: past, 
present, and future.

Is our puzzle piece still relevant? Mormons were way ahead of their time 150 
years ago. They were talking about things like Jesus being married, and the 
feminine aspect of God. Then, they started the policy of: "That's too sacred 
to talk about; we don't talk about these things."

Now, years later, the world is ready. People are talking about these issues. 
Books abound on the Goddess and a married Jesus. Mormons could have been 
adding their voice to the dialogue ever since; but instead, they are still 
stuck in the past and their persecution complex. Now they're in the Dark 
Ages.

Anyway, good luck with life. I am so excited about life. I feel like the new 
year really has a powerful psychological effect. It feels like a time of new 
beginnings.

Much Love,
Beth

My associate's response follows:

                From:
Reply-To:
To: "Beth Quick"
Subject: Goddess
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:37:37 -0700


I think your project is a wonderful one. I loved your description of the 
apostasy of the church from being on the leading edge of spiritual wisdom 
that now is starting to go mainstream, but now they have become so boring 
that what they even shun what is now mainstream as being "too spiritual to 
talk about or know about let alone believe."

As for the role of the Mormon church, I see them as being on a parallel with 
the Jews at the time of Christ. They have a role all right. That is to 
reject the work of the Lord in their midst.

Did you see that I included your press release in my post yesterday
announcing a new index of material relevant to Heavenly Mother

>From what you said below, I am now more clear in my mind what it is you are 
trying to accomplish -- at least I think so. Would it be okay if I added the 
following "Description" to the beginning of your notice?

"Collecting writings pertinent to Heavenly Mother, the feminine aspect of 
God, as well as the Heavenly Mother consciousness latent in each person."

S.








______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





Subject: 
         recent radical stuff
    Date: 
         Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:47:42 -0500
   From: 
         proclus 
     To: 
         Andy Mcguire ,
         ArtdeHoyos , Beth any ,
         Dave , Enoch Shemna ,
         Joe Steve Swick III ,
         Kathleen McGuire , Ken Shaw ,
         Kerry Shirts ,
         "onandagus@webtv.net" ,
         proclus , "R. Trent Reynolds"
,
         Randall Shortridge ,
         "Robert R. Black" , rpc man , 




Utah Senate Votes To Fight Polygamy
     
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20000223/aponline061634_000.htm 

      Here is a quote, 

      "He said crimes associated with polygamy "go to the heart and soul
of human rights.
      Certainly it is to our advantage to deal with these issues we have
put off so long before the
      Olympics." " 

      What a travesty, fighting a human right in the name of human
rights. The sick thing is that
      this is clearly the commercial interests, who think that they will
maximize profits, if they
      distance themselves from polygamy. I think that the fathers are
weeping. We have sadly lost
      the promises. 


      Here's the same story in Deseret News... from the same
perspective. !?! 

      http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C150016380%2C00.html 

      Regards, 

      proclus 


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