Dave Thread 1
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PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:10 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/27 11:54 AM
TO: ALL
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Last month I attended a lecture by one of my favorite
authors, Dave Hunt. His books are written to warn
"christians" of the traditional persuasion of certain
heresies that are abroad in the world. His attack on these
heresies is based on a particular conception of what the
serpent said to Eve in the garden of eden. God said not to
eat the fruit or you will die. Of this there is little
debate. Dave holds that the devil decieved eve into eating
the fruit by telling several lies.
1. You will not die.
2. You will be as God
3. Your eyes will be opened
Mormons generally do not beleive that these are all lies.
While it is true that Adam and eve died, their eyes were
opened and they did become as God. Brigham Young said,
"The devil told the truth".
Beyond that, both the mormon god and xtian god seem
capricious in that either way the commandment seems
undesirable or even undoable. Perhaps this is why the
ancient gnostics beleived that the god of the old testament
is an evil usurper who we need to avoid.
Next post; THE GODMAKERS refuted?
love wisdom
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:10 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/28 7:53 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: BRET BOTTGER (SHSK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Proclus,
Yeah, the garden of Eden is an interesting paradox, isn't
it. But Satan (in my opinion) DID lie. A lie mixed with
truth, of course. Eve did die, didn't she?
Now on DAVE HUNT; does he work at BYU as an administrator
besides being an author? I think I've met him. BRET
Monday, January 27 1992 11:11:13 AM SHSK79A
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:11 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/28 10:29 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GARN LEBARON JR. (DVMS01A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
A true tempest in a teapot here. Since the garden of Eden
never existed, and the whole story merely belongs to the
Western European creation myth, any debate about
technicalities in a story is irrelevant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:11 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/29 2:11 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: TIMOTHY KILLIAN (HRNR75A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Proclus: You have raised a point that I am curious about.
What do the non-LDS believe in reagrds to the
question..."Why did God place the forbidden fruit in the
garden?" Please state whether the response is A) Personal
Opinion or B) Church Theology and if so which church? Just
curious. TWK
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:12 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/30 11:02 AM
TO: GARN LEBARON JR. (DVMS01A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Welll.... according to Joseph Smith, the Garden of Eden did
literally exist, and was located at Spring Hill, Missouri
(before the continents divided). I'm not making this up:
see the book MORMON DOCTRINE, by Bruce McConkie, p. 20.
1/28 11:06 PM
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:13 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/31 10:02 AM
TO: BRET BOTTGER (SHSK79A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
I've heard this rumour before. It seems that Dave may be on
the payroll of the mormon church and GODMAKERS was secretly
published by the church to turn members away from xtianity
and back to the mormonism of their fathers.
I think that Brigham was making the obverse point of yours
in saying that SOME of what Lucifer said was the truth
bold faced
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:13 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/31 10:02 AM
TO: GARN LEBARON JR. (DVMS01A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
On the contrary.
Let's assume that the garden story is mere myth. Still,
this myth has influenced many people. This influence is
based on a persons conception of the motives of the mythic
characters. Whether Lucifer is perceived as telling bold
faced lies or deviously partial lies becomes important to
the evolution of all western religion, as Dave correctly
percieves.
what's in the tea though?
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:13 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/31 1:16 PM
TO: TIMOTHY KILLIAN (HRNR75A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Incidently Timothy
That quote was from THE GOSPEL OF PHILIP. I strongly urge
all temple mormons to obtain a copy and read it immediately.
nag nag homedy
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:14 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/31 1:19 PM
TO: TIMOTHY KILLIAN (HRNR75A)
FROM: THOMAS MORTENSEN (WGSD13A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was placed in
the garden so that man could truly have free will. Eve may
have been deceived by the devil to eat the fruit, but Adam
CHOSE to eat by his own free will.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:14 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/28 11:39 PM
TO: ALL
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
When Dave and Ed Decker published GODMAKERS seven years ago,
no one should have been surprised by the stir that it
caused. Despite the chagrin of many mormon members, it
catalysed a spirit of openess concerning the temple rites
that continues today. Witness that the changes in the rite
appeared in the TIMES within 24 hours of the event, also the
appearance of the book, WHAT'S GOING ON IN THERE which sets
down the rite which documents the changes in detail.
The reason that GODMAKERS provoked so much fury among
members is that it seemed to document an occult connection
with the temple rite. I was very impressed with this
documentation and checked much of it out myself. Everything
seemed to be in order.
This is why I was so surprised when I began to get wind that
Dave's claims have been refuted. Even "anti-mormon" types
seem disenchanted with the book. This so vexed me that I
asked Dave about it myself at his lecture. He said that if
he were to write it in 1992 that he would change very
little, if anything. He went on to say that Ed Decker has
gone awry with subsequent projects like TEMPLE OF DOOM and
caught the flack for it. Unfortunately, Ed's bad reputation
seems to have rubbed off on his earlier work. The result is
that GODMAKERS has been wrongly discredited.
Now a word about the so-called response to GODMAKERS. I am
running out of time so I will just say flatly that THE TRUTH
ABOUT THE GODMAKERS merely reaffirmed the standard line of
the church. MYTHMAKERS did not address GODMAKERS claims
either. Ignoring the truth will not make it go away.
let's talk
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/92 4:15 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 01/30 12:56 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Dave Hunt and Ed Decker are really barking up the wrong tree
(so to speak) with their books, especially as they relate to
the temple ritual.
There's no doubt that Smith borrowed the temple ritual from
Masonic rites -- this is clearly documented in the Tanners'
book EVOLUTION OF THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY. And Masonry
is certainly "occult", in a sense. Does this make it
Satanic? Well, from the standpoint of Dave Hunt and the
fundamentalists, it does, since they think Masonry is just
as bad as Mormonism -- Hunt has lots of unkind things to say
about the Masons! But the fact that the Mormons borrowed
their ritual from the Masons really isn't one of the more
serious difficulties with Mormonism -- the serious problems
involve things like Smith translating a pagan Egyptian
papyrus as a book by Abraham, a picture of American
pre-history that can't be reconciled with archaeology, etc.,
etc., etc. And if Ed Decker isn't on the LDS payroll,
he oughta be, since he's such an easy target! By
concentrating on silly stuff like the "Temple of Doom",
Mormons can divert attention from the more serious
problems.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/06/92 6:18 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/06 1:33 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: THOMAS GOODWIN (PHJX44A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
What you have written is indicative of the links between
the LDS theology and its roots in freemasonry. The LDS
really don't want to address the influence of the tenets of
freemasonry upon Joseph Smith and the subsequent secret
temple rituals (their term is "sacred ordinances") which
are a keystone of their highest level of membership. The
lower echelon LDS are NOT admitted to the temples for these>
rituals as they have to prove their "worthiness" first.
If this isn't doctrine along masonic lines, then what
else could be?
Incidentally, freemasonry allows the worship of many
different gods. The chief requirement is belief in the
"Supreme Architect." Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ does
not figure that prominently in the philosophy of
freemasonry.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/06/92 6:50 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/03 11:10 AM
TO: ALL
FROM: GARN LEBARON JR. (DVMS01A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Exactly!! to that previous note. The Mormon church may be
seen as a nice bridge between the "Western" christian
religions and the Eastern mystic and western pagan
religions. Now if you can all just keep progressing you
might eventually find what the natives knew all along.
God
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/06/92 6:50 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/03 11:01 PM
TO: GARN LEBARON JR. (DVMS01A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Garn... What did they know all along ? And who is they ?
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/06/92 6:50 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/06/1992
I doubt that the natives taught that God is ineffable
trinity or that spirits can make babies. Look at God. Shake
his hand.
spin now
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/09/92 3:10 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DJTN54B
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/09/1992
Pam
If you have been keeping up with the posts in this subject
then you know already that mormonism has some striking
resemblances to the initiatory cults of the mediterranean
basin, the very region where mormonism claims to have its
origins. What's the problem?
just proclus again
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/10/92 7:02 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/09 10:26 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mike...How did those cult feel about a guy having more then
one wife?
Jas ( Perhaps a polygamist in a former life )
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/10/92 7:09 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/10/1992
Jas
It appears that the Greeks were ambivalent toward polygamy.
This ambivalence was not shared by their neighbors,
including the Hebrews. Despite what Stew has been saying,
there are many biblical characters who practiced polygamy,
while the evidence is not sufficient to say that the OT god
disapproved in each case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Wives as numerous as the stars.
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/10/92 7:12 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/09 10:28 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: PAMELA EMICK (DJTN54B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
baloney.
Even if these cults supposedly had some similar things that
we do does not make them in any shape or form related. I
don't believe in evolution, yet monkeys have a lot in common
with man. I also know that Satan is a great deceiver and
liar, and he mixes truth with evil. We have the true
temple ceremonies, the others who may have simliar stuff are
simply that , SIMILAR, not exact, not connected, not the
same, not even close.
nice try.
pam
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/10/92 7:27 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DJTN54B
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/10/1992
Pam
It again appears that you are the victim of impassioned
ignorance. It has been well established that Joseph was
intricately involved with masonry. It does stetch the
imagination to much to figure out why the temple rites bear
such an uncanny resemblance to the masonic ones. If you
knew anything about masonry, then you would know that the
masons themselves trace their tradition back to the very
mystery schools of which we have been speaking. Elder
Milton R. Hunter made the connection explicit in the book
THE GOSPEL THROUGH THE AGES. Why is it so hard for some
members to consider that apostate remnents of the temple
rite from past dispesations might still be extant today?
Just look at the evidence.
atwixt two pillars
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/11/92 6:06 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/11 5:53 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: PAMELA EMICK (DJTN54B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Sorry, you're still incorrect. Masonry has no connection
whatsoever to temple ceremonies. Period.
pam
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/11/92 6:14 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DJTN54B
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/11/1992
Pam
It is interesting that you still hold that opinion of the
masonic connection to mormonism, especially in light of all
the evidence which has been presented to the contrary, even
by your fellow members. However, your blatant and
unsupported assertions that there is no connection will not
be believed by anyone who has had an even cursory look at
the evidence. Sorry about that. I'm afraid we may have to
continue this discussion without any constructive imput from
you.
glum
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/12/92 3:28 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/12 8:09 AM
TO: PAMELA EMICK (DJTN54B)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Pam:
Bless your valiant spirit. I know what you really mean. I
know that there really is NO CONNECTION between what the
Masons do and what goes on in the LDS temples, because with
one there is NO AUTHORITY. This really, in fact, nullifies
the "connection" that some think exists. That similarities
exist is true, and there are several possibilities relating
to apostasy that could help to provide theories as to why
the Masonic rituals are in existence. But the bottom line
is, there is no connection between this and the dealings in
the LDS temples because of the priesthood authority missing
in the Masonic ritual. Masons are silent on what they do, as
we are, but theirs is a brotherhood shared by ANYONE who
believes that we are of the family of God the Father. No
matter what faith. Ours is for men AND women.
I'm with you Pam. Sometimes its hard to deal with folks who
think they know everything and want to spout off how
ignorant you are. I love your heart.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/12/92 4:41 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/12/1992
Grant
You said, "I know that there really is NO CONNECTION between
what the Masons do and what goes on in the LDS temples,
because with one there is NO AUTHORITY." This is certainly
a valid argument within the context of mormon doctrine;
however, it completely ignores the historical evidence to
the contrary. Given these two facts;
1. Joseph was initiated into masonry before he introduced
the endowment.
2. The endowment is identical to the masonic ritual in very
many respects.
It takes a wild stretch of imagination to beleive that
Joseph did not employ what he learned in masonry in the
development of the endowment. It is often said that god
does not draw form empty wells. Do you think that elohim
beeped it into Joseph's head using morse code? No, the
evidence implies more than a similarity between mormonism
and freemasonry. It implies a CONNECTION to masonry, as
well as the other traditions that we have discussed. I know
there is no direct evidence for this; however, it is the
most reasonable explanation for the similarities.
connexion
p-r-o-c-l-u-s
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/13/92 9:17 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/13 1:21 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Yes, the term "connection" really just confuses the issue.
On March 15, 1842, Smith was initiated into the Masons. A
month later, he established the temple ordinances which
contain many Masonic elements. What's the explanation?
It's hard not to be just a teeny bit suspicious that Smith
stole the whole thing from Masonic ritual. We can safely
rule out coincidence, I think... Some might claim that
Masonic and Mormon rituals preserve authentic ancient
elements -- (or perhaps Smith recognized inspired elements
in the Masonic ritual when he was initiated, and decided to
incorporate these into the Mormon temple ritual -- this
seems to be the LDS rationalization here). The trouble with
this theory is that the Masonic ceremonies aren't that old
themselves -- most of the distinctive ritual elements only
date from around 1700. There's no evidence suggesting that
Masonic ritual actually goes back to Solomon's temple --
quite the contrary. We can trace the development of it
during the 18th century.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/13/92 9:15 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DWRH70C
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/13/1992
Melissa
I find evidence of stellar initiatory cults preserving many
of the elements of the ritual going back to pre-christian
times. If you would like I can compile some of this
material for you, but it will take me some time.
Other than this I find your argument very convincing.
the upper room.
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/14/92 4:22 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/13 11:45 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mike:
I believe that Joseph Smith was shown was he knew by an
angel of God. He certainly made it no secret that he had
numerous visitations from angels, receiving instructions
from them. It was not uncommon to this man. Given this
history, I find it hard to believe that he would resort to
some sort of copy cat technique for the most glorious of his
revelations. It isn't compatible with his history.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/14/92 4:35 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/14/1992
Copy cat?
Aren't you are ignoring the evidence for a connection? Your
pre-concieved notions of what Joseph might do are simply
unbelievable in light of what has been presented.
At least Pam is trying to think. I must say that her
position is superior to yours. May I restate it Pam? God
is the sole source of the temple endowment. Any other
similar ritual must be the product of Satan. I hope I got
that right!
now Skyla, no wait!
proclus
ps Read Rick's post!
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/14/92 4:37 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/13 3:39 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Proclus, thanks for bringing this 'connection' to light. I
asked questions along this line some time ago and they were
ignored. As both you and I know, these LDS will never come
clean with the goods because both Free Masonry and Mormon
Temple ceremonies are SECRET. Joseph Smith made it that way
because the Masonic rituals are secret. I am studying both
Mormonism and Freemasonry. The similarities are astounding!>
I have mentioned the legend of Enoch on 3 different
occasions and no one has responded. Wonder why. The legend
of Enoch and the legend of Joseph Smith are identical right
down to the distress sign Joseph supposedly gave at the time
of his death. Amazing. I am confused about one thing. Did
Joseph commit suicide by jumping out of a window or did he
fall out a window or was he pushed out a window or was he
shot and then fell out a window or did he jump out a window
and was shot in midair or did he jump out a window and was
shot when he hit the ground by the angry mob 'just to make
sure'? Please enlighten me. OH One More Thing>>>>>>>>>>>
Is there any evidence that Joseph was 'martyred' by one of
his own or perhaps by a Mason because he had violated the
Masonic rules of secrecy or just by an ordinary person who
was against his teachings regarding polygamy?
obsessed
Stephenie
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/14/92 4:47 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KBHD86A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/14/1992
Sorry Steph
I don't know the circumstances of Joseph's demise. I think
it's one of those glittering unknowns. I have heard that he
had a pistol though, and that makes sense to me. Why else
would anyone stand by the window of a room that's being
riddled with bullets. It is safe to say that he uttered the
masonic distress call. Many of the witnesses as well as the
author of the account were masons. These words could not
have been lost on them.
I also think that you are right about the Enoch legend too.
This point has even been made by mormon scholars. Mormons
are more than happy to compare Joseph to Enoch. This may be
why you have been getting so little response
Oh bored my bod and widows gun hihihi
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/14/92 5:13 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/14/1992
Are you sirius Jas?
Freemasonry is an initiatory tradition, or a fraternal
brotherhood, or a secret society, or the product of Satan,
or the source of the mormon temple ceremony, or a drinking
club. Take your pick.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We are currently discussing the similarity between the
masonic ritual and the mormon temple endowment. It turns
out the the controversy is over the reason for this
similarity. Did Joseph use masonry for source material?
Despite blatant and unsupported assertions to the contrary,
the answer seems to be a definite YES.
a pngt
proclus
Dave Thread 2
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PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/15/92 2:01 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/15 1:07 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mike:
you think there is evidence? Well, there's not. It is all
speculation, and nothing else. All we can do is throw out
ideas and discuss it. I did this with my theory on Joseph
getting the endowment info from an angel. My theory is just
as valid as yours. Theres no proof to the contrary. Just
some speculation.
Grant (still holding to my angel theory)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/15/92 2:01 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/15 1:07 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Sometimes the method of how revelation is received becomes
the focus, rather than what was received. Mike: you might
want to consider that it just isn't that important HOW truth
is received of the Lord, that is unless you are making
accusations for plagurism (which are speculative at best).
Search for truth and avoid the speculation. Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/15/92 2:08 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/15/1992
On the contrary Grant
It is immanently important how revelations are received. If
you believe in exaltation, you know you will be doing
similar things at that time. A knowledge of the mechanics
of creation, Christ conception, and revelation will be
absolutely essential. In the present, if one wants
revelation, it behooves one to find out precisely how
previous revelations were obtained.
now
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/16/92 2:49 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/16 12:09 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mike:
You call it the most "likely" method of receiving the temple
endowment, that Joseph Smith saw it at a Masonic gathering.
I say, this may be likely to YOU, but to ME it is highly
unlikely. The fact that we are discussing "likelihood" is
evidence that we are both speculating and something to
which there is not any EVIDENCE, which you have stated to
the contrary as if there is some evidence to prove
something.
Mike, all I want to do is state my explanation that is in
harmony with Joseph Smith being a true prophet of God. There
is this side to the story, you know. I just don't like the
innuendo that Joseph Smith copied, plagiurized, and made
everything up. It is disappointing for me to read such
stuff. Sorry.
Grant (holding to the angel theory)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/16/92 2:49 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/16 9:32 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mike:
HOW revelation is received is so diversified that I really
feel it should not be the focus, rather than what was
RECEIVED being the focus of the discussion. Revelation can
be received in ANY way the God would want to reveal it.
Through a voice, a stone, a vision, and angel, and EVEN
A DONKEY!
In the Old Testament there are accounts of many miracles,
and it is interesting to see the diversification that the
Lord used in communicating His will to the people.
The story about the Donkey communicating the will of the
Lord to Balaam could be the brunt of some real funny and
sarcastic ridicule. Would you ridicule the Old Testament?
Why then ridicule or try to point out certain methods of
receiving revelation (such as with the Urim and Thummim) to
take the FOCUS away from the revelation, concentrating
instead on the WAY it was received.
If you don't believe the story about the donkey in the O.T.
then read Numbers 22 for a full and interesting account.
Mike, if the Lord can speak to a prophet, like Balaam
through the mouth of a donkey, then I would venture to say
that ANY method is valid. Including a seer stone. Let's
focus on the revelations and not the method. That is what is
really important.
Is there anything in the Book of Mormon or in the Doctrine
and Covenants that you care to discuss?
I would like to discuss the revelations! They are glorious
and full of new thought and knowledge.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/16/92 3:56 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/16/1992
Grant
You need to look at the rules of evidence. The fact that I
am discussing a likelihood implies evidence, not the lack of
it. There is plenty of evidence. The only thing that we
don't have is a statment of Joseph saying that he used some
masonic elements in the endowment. That would be a smoking
gun! We don't need the smoking gun though. He left his
fingerprints all over the place.
Grant, I definitely don't want to weaken your faith in the
prophet. I'm not trying to refute your angel theory, per se.
I'm trying to open up a sense of the possilities. It is a
little far fetched to say that Joseph was initiated into
freemasonry, and then in a matter of weeks had a unique
revelation from an angel that just happened to contain
masonic elements. It would serve mormonism better to take
Joseph's own journals in hand and try to explain why the
revelation was received in this way. There is much to be
learned from this kind of approach.
1. Why were elements of the endowment preserved in masonry?
2. Where did they come from?
3. What does the history of initiatory societies, like
freemasonry tell us about the endowment.
4. How has the ritual changed, and what can be learned from
older editions.
5. Did the prophet plagurise masonry, or did he restore the
pristine form of the ordinance.
Grant, anti's have had a heyday with this material. Let's
confront their arguments squarely, and with a knowledge of
the facts, not slothing about with weak arguments about
what a prophet should or should not do. Mormon prophets
murdered Laban, practised polygamy illegally, slaughtered
Lamanites by the thousands, and buried the truth in the
ground (BOM). I know that you have ready JUSTIFICATIONS for
these accusations. I am sure that if you looked straight at
the evidence, you could justify the masonic endowment.>>>>>
proclus
endowed 500 AD
PS I have new material to post to this subject, IF I can
get through with this trivial masonry argument. I am more
than anxious to discuss some of the distinctive doctrines of
the D&C and BOM as well as some surprising parallels from
pre-christian mesopotamean ritual.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE 02/17/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MARY WITHAM (DWJV72A)
Subject: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Sent on: 02/16 at 10:26 PM
Proclus
I am anxious to read your new material on parallels. The more I read
Gnostic, Dead Sea Scrolls, and Nag Hamaddi postings, the more
interested I get in the ancient church history.
Do you have a readin g list to
recommend?
Mary
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRITE A MESSAGE 02/17/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SEND TO: MARY WITHAM (DWJV72A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mary
I'm glad that their is some interest in this material. It has not
even begun to come out fully. I've been trying to work it out for
several years. For mormons, the past is their freind.
I always try to get people to look at the original sources and think
for themselves.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If your interested in the most ancient whisperings of endowment, try
looking into the following sources. Avoid commentaries if you can.
THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY
Especially the GOSPEL OF PHILLIP
THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS
THE CHALDEAN ORACLES
Let me know what you find out!
mormon proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/17/92 7:43 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/16 7:46 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: PAMELA EMICK (DJTN54B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
So far I still haven't seen why everybody thinks the masonry
ceremonies are even remotely close the LDS temples stuff.
Like I said, just because monkeys are close to us in a lot
of ways doesn't mean we are descendents from them. Unless
of course, you think we are!!
pam
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/17/92 7:50 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DJTN54B
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/17/1992
Pam
Again your post betrays you. You obviously know nothing
about the masonic rite.
You may redeem yourself by pointing out the ways (be
specific) in which they are dissimilar. If you had looked
at each ritual you would know that there are plenty of >>>>
ways in which they are different from each other.
We are talking about the similarities. These similarities
exist, despite your uninformed denials.
the points of...
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/17/92 7:55 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/17 11:26 AM
TO: PAMELA EMICK (DJTN54B)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
It may clarify things to give examples of the sort of things
that have been pointed out as specific similarities:
The "first token" of the Aaronic priesthood, for example, is
a grip identical with that of the first degree of Masonry.
The dialog spoken at this point ("Has it a name?" "It has",
etc.), is identical with that of the Masonic ceremony here.
Likewise, the "five points of fellowship" (removed from
the Mormon ceremony in April 1990) are identical to the
"five points of fellowship" in the Masonic rite.
The Masonic ritual involves placing the square on the right
breast and the compass on the left breast; these correspond
to the markings on the temple garments.
Etc., etc., etc. This is just a tiny sample -- the list of
similarities goes on for many pages. For details, see the
book EVOLUTION OF THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY, by Jerald and
Sandra Tanner. In general, the current ritual is less
similar to the Masonic ritual than the 19th century ceremony
was, as many passages which were identical in phrasing to
Masonic ritual have been removed (such as the blood oaths).
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/17/92 7:56 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/17 7:15 PM
TO: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Melissa:
I just want you to know that you have violated several
people here in your lack of respect for speaking about
things that are not supposed to be thrown out in public.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/17/92 8:01 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/17/1992
I want everyone in this subject to take note that Grant did
not deny any of the similarities that Melissa pointed out.
While I don't wholy approve of what was said, Melissa did
the right thing for her, considering the adamant refusal of
many in this subject to even consider looking at the
evidence of similarity themselves. Are you convinced? Can
we move on now? restless proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/17/92 8:03 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/17 2:36 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
One of the more astonishing coincidences involving Mormonism
and Masonry relates to Lucinda Morgan, the widow of William
Morgan.
William Morgan was an upstate NY printer who wrote a book
exposing Masonic secrets and was allegedly kidnapped, tried,
and murdered by Masons in 1826 for doing this (they didn't
fool around in those days!). There was a terrific public
furor, with "anti-Masonic" political parties being formed,
etc. (the "Gadianton bands" and warnings against "secret
combinations" in the Book of Mormon seem to have been at
least partly inspired by this anti-Masonic furor).
Four years after Morgan's death, his widow Lucinda became a
Mormon! And in 1838 she became one of Joseph Smith's
plural wives!! It's hard to know what to make of all this.
(see Brodie's book NO MAN KNOWS MY HISTORY, p. 459).
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/17/92 8:48 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DWRH70C
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/17/1992
Melissa, Great post!
The allusion to the Gadianton robbers reminded me of
something that I haven't thought of in along time. It can
be shown, using the mormon scriptures that the first "secret
combination" was made between Satan and Cain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and
if thou tell thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their
heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if
they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy
father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy
brother Abel into thine hands.
"And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his
commands. And all these things were done in secret.
"And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great
secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore, Cain
was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness."
(Moses 5:29)
This is a fascinating passage for connecting Joseph to the
anti-masonic furor, since masons were known to swear by
their throats. The term "Master Mahan" is highly
remeniscent of the masonic term "master mason", refering to
the third degree initiate. I have heard that language such
as this was highly characteristic of the anti-masonic
diatribes of the day.
"For from the days of Cain, there was a secret combination,
and their works were in the dark, and they knew every man
his brother." (Moses 5:51)
Masons of the day were also known to refer to each other as
brothers, and were known to identify a brother by secret
handclasps.
Melissa, I'm surely not saying anything against the masons!
I think masonry is WONDROUS. All of this just points up
more of the ambiguity that you were talking about, as well
as giving the hold outs in this subject something to think
about, if you know what I mean.
Let's move on
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/19/92 9:07 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/18 8:42 AM
TO: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Melissa, me thinks you hit the nail on the head. Be very
careful! Very careful! I thank you for your truth and
courage! That omminous note from Grant makes me think.....
Dominus Vobiscum!
Stephenie
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/19/92 9:09 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/18 9:53 AM
TO: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
FROM: PAMELA EMICK (DJTN54B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Sorry, you are wrong again. Those things you described are
NOT related to the temple stuff. But as we stated before,
even if they were even close, Satan has conterfeited stuff
all over the place, and although it does not mean that the
Masons are 'Satan inspired', it just means it can be used as
exactly the smoke screen you have taken it to be. pam
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/18/92 5:02 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/18 2:40 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Interesting points! The anti-Masonic material in the Book
of Mormon is one of the clearest indications that it was a
product of the 1820's, and not an authentic ancient text.
The alleged trial of Morgan by the Masons in 1826 took place
less than 10 miles from Smith's home -- the period when the
BoM was being written was the height of the anti-Masonic
furor. As you point out, Cain was not
only "Mahan", but "Master Mahan". Hmmm... The "swearing
by the throat", ironically, later became part of the Mormon
ritual, with the gesture being removed only in 1990.
Note Helaman 2:4: a member of the Gadianton band is
described as expert "in his craft". There's a whole column
of references to secret combinations in the BoM index, plus
the references to the Gadiantons, secret oaths, etc. The
Masons (oops, Mahans) were a problem for both the Nephites
and the Jaredites (they were unknown to "the government", or
they would have been suppressed), and it's implied that they
were a long-standing source of strife in Biblical society
(Ether 9:26 and many other places). But....... there's not
a peep about these secret societies in the Bible. Zilch.
Zip. Nada. The whole idea is foreign to the Bible. But
they're a major theme in the Book of Mormon. I wonder why?
Helaman 6:24 is especially interesting: the Gadiantons hold
trials (according to their own laws) of any member of their
band who reveals their secrets. Of course, this was
precisely the issue in the Morgan case...
The fact that Smith married Morgan's widow is sufficient
indication of his fascination with the Morgan case and
things Masonic. It's also been pointed out that there are
an unusually large number of names in MOR- in the book of
Mormon (including "Mormon" itself). Not to mention the
large number of names in ANTI-...!
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/19/92 9:20 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DWRH70C
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/19/1992
Melissa,
I must tell you that I found your post to be formidable and
informing, as usual. I also found one little exception
again. You said, "But....... there's not a peep about
these secret societies in the Bible. Zilch. Zip. Nada.
The whole idea is foreign to the Bible." One has to be
very careful about making blanket statements like that. It
so happens that I did a survey of the bible a few years ago,
looking for just such passages. I'll admit that the terms
Gadianton robbers and secret combinations are not to be
found; however, the bible has PLENTY to say about the
secret works of darkness and murder. Here is a small
sample;
Psalms 10:7-10, Psalms 64:2-6. These are the references
that got me started. Virtually any reference to "the wicked"
in Psalms (and much of the Proverbs too) can be read as a
description of conspiracy, secret murder, and maybe even
antichrist. The translators of the New Testament seemed to
recognize this when they rendered IIThes 2:8 "that Wicked".
Psalm 73 reads peculiarly like some of the references to
"the works of darkness" in the BOM.
Other New Testament stories relate to this motif. (Matthew
12:14-16,14:1-11, 26:3-5, Acts 23:12-23) The councils
againsts Jesus were all held illegally (therefore secretly)
at night. There is no obvious conspiracy involved with the
murder of John the Baptist; however, an oath and a beheading
is mentioned. The attempt on Paul is a "conspiracy"
involving an oath and lots of exciting behind the scenes
intrigue.
The prophets were also hip on this. Isaiah says; "We have
made a covenant with death, and with hell we are in
agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge,
and under falsehood have we hid ourselves." (Is
28:14-19,29:15, Jeremiah 7:3-14,9:1-6,11:9-1018:18-23 on and
on) The Jeremiah references are particular interesting
since they date around The BOM account of Lehi fleeing
Jerusalem.
None of this was lost on early christian thinkers. Gregory
of Tours has a group of conspirators sitting "with finger
on lip", a sign of silence in certain initiatory
traditions. He, like Joseph, seems to think that all of
this originated with the giants, the seed of Cain. (HISTORY
OF THE FRANKS, PoGP Moses chap 8)
This is just scratching the surface. I have many many more
references. Joseph seems to have couched these concepts in
an amalgam of royal and early nineteenth century english.
A hostile observer might say that he has caught Joseph
writing from within his time, while ripping off the bible
and others, as usual.
living star of Zoroaster
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/21/92 3:31 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/20 2:14 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Interesting references! I looked at the passages you cite,
but it really does seem to be stretching things to see any
reference to secret societies in them:
The Bible often condemns wickedness and hypocrisy (doing one
thing in public, another in secret), and the Psalms/Isaiah/
Thess. passages seem to be examples of that, and not
anything about secret societies -- in Psalms 10 and 64,
"secret" just refers to lying in ambush.
There certainly were plots against the life of Paul,
Jeremiah, Jesus, and John the Baptist (successful in the
last 2 cases). But there's no indication that secret
societies were involved here -- the oaths referred to at Mt.
14:7 and Acts 23:14 are not oaths of secrecy but oaths of
performance (common in aniquity).
Contrast this with the strong, specific parallels between
anti-Masonic propaganda and the Gadiantons (see Helaman,
chapters 3 and 6 for most of these):
secret words and signs.
references to a "craft" and to "brothers" who swear mutual
aid.
unknown to the "head of government" (Smith ignores the
slight anachronism here)
(more...)
trials and condemnation of any brother who betrays the
secrets (as in the Morgan case).
All these specific connections are absent from anything in
the Bible -- it's clear that Smith ripped off his
description of the Gadianton bands, but it was from the
daily papers, not the Bible.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/21/92 3:42 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DWRH70C
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/21/1992
Melissa
I don't want to quibble to much about the societies point.
The effect is the same. Those oaths that Joseph mentions
are also oaths of action, made in secret. Do you think that
the would be assasins of Paul went around chanting "We're
going to kill Paul"? No, they kept the info within certain
circles. There is also support for the societies argument
from the frequent mention of evil counsels and councils.
The terms conspiracy and secret society are often used
synonymously.
This is not a critical point. The point is that there is
reason to think, based on these references and others, that
there have been conspiracies of robbery and murder in the
days of the bible. golgoth
proclus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE 02/21/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MARY WITHAM (DWJV72A)
Subject: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Sent on: 02/20 at 01:27 AM
You amaze me. I wonder what dear Stephenie will say to that.
I post this by e-mail so *P* will accept it, but so far you've cost me
two messages tonight. Your postings are worth it, though.
mw
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRITE A MESSAGE 02/21/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SEND TO: MARY WITHAM (DWJV72A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mary
Thanks right back to you! I'm going to keep this subject going as
long as I can.
Starphanie's
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 10:50 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/28 12:31 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Alas, the term "New Age" is so vague that it's almost
meaningless. For many people, like Dave Hunt, it really
means "any system of irrational beliefs other than orthodox
Christianity". By that definition, Mormonism certainly
qualifies.
Joseph Smith (and the whole Smith family) was definitely
involved in various aspects of "folk magic" -- superstitions
related to money-digging, crystal-gazing, spirits guarding
buried treasure, etc., were very widespread in his time (and
still are...). But the theology of the Book of Mormon is
pretty orthodox.
The distinctive Mormon views start coming in later
revelations, such as D&C 76 and 88, from 1832. And the
longer Smith lived, the more his views diverged from
orthodox Christianity -- compare his inspired translation of
Genesis 1.1 in 1830 (from Moses 2:1) with the version of
1842 (Abraham 4:1):
1830: in the beginning I created the heaven and the earth
upon which thou standest.
1842: and they went down at the beginning and they, that
is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
Scholars have traced the influences of various popular books
of philosophy and religion on Smith. Much of the
neo-Platonic content of the Book of Abraham appears to come
from a book by Thomas Dick (Philosophy of a Future
State). See Fawn Brodie's book NO MAN KNOWS MY HISTORY,
Chapter 12. I know Mormons don't like to hear about Brodie,
but so far, their attempts to discredit her haven't been
very successful. Unlike the fundamentalist Mormon-bashers,
she doesn't have an axe to grind here.
Smith was always open to new theories. As Brodie says: his
"open-mindedness, stemming no doubt from the insubstantial
character of his religious credo, was unique among minsters
of the gospel".
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 10:57 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DWRH70C
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/28/1992
That's it Melissa!
I'm checking out this PHILOSOPHY OF A FUTURE STATE on my
next trip to the library. The Book of Abraham is a
Neoplatonic tract! I love your posts Melissa!
plotinus
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 7:10 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/28 6:03 PM
TO: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Melissa:
Joseph Smith wasn't influenced by theories that changed his
concept of God (like the example of the writings of Moses
compared to Abraham where Moses was speaking in the singular
term, and Abraham in the plural). Do you not remember that
Joseph Smith when he was 14 saw TWO distinct Gods?
So from the beginning, Joseph knew what the true personality
of God was, and his concept never changed. It didn't need
to. He saw TWO beings, glorified and standing above him in
the air, and they spoke to him, each speaking separately
from the other. No room for confusion here. And certainly no
room for the kind of speculation and inuendo you offered.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:07 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/28/1992
Grant
I didn't expect to see you back in this subject again. So,
how about that masonic endowment? Would you like us to
point out some more similarities? We can be VERY specific.
Anyone who has taken a comprehensive look at the work of
Joseph realises that his ideas developed over a period of
years. The restoration did not occur overnight. There were
many outmoded xtian beliefs that had to be overturned first.
open the seals
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:18 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KBHD86A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 02/28/1992
Starphanie
Thanks for the jab at Grant. I hope
that you didn't think me presumptuous
for addressing my latest post to you. I
wanted to tell you that I've found some
material on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Joseph/Enoch connection that I will be
posting to the subject soon! I remember
your interest in it.
Also, I hope you don't mind the personal
communication. I respect your input. I
find it amusing and thought-provoking.
of the Lady
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 7:10 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/28 8:57 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Grant, it has been quoted in reference material and on this
board that the first 'being' Smith encounterd on that
strange day was a darkness which caused him to be afraid.
The first was darkness! It is written in scripture that NO
ONE can look on the face of God. Prove that what the 14 year
old saw in the woods was God and I'll eat my monitor and
when you can't, I'll watch you eat yours! The WarriorDave Thread 3
=============
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 7:11 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/29 12:24 AM
TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Stephenie:
Okay, I'll prove it to you. True it is that the scriptures
teach that no man can look upon the face of God and live. I
believe this. That is, unless, God wants you to look on His
face, and then He TRANSFIGURES you...
Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord?
The Lord can do anything. He can transfigure us if He wants
to and then we will not wither in His presence...
Do you not remember that Christ took Peter, James, and John
up onto the "Mount of Transfiguration" with Him, and was
transfigured before them and showed unto them His glory? How
did Peter, James and John look upon Christ and LIVE? It is
because God must have caused a change to come upon their
bodies while Christ was arrayed in glory.
It is EASY to parrot the scripture and say "No man can look
upon God and live!" But I tell you that it is just as easy
to say that "They can if God wants it to be so..."
What the scripture means, is that the glory of God is so
great that it would burn and wither any mortal that stands
within His presence...unless He transfigures you...
Think of the second coming. Doesn't the scritpure teach that
many will be burned at his coming? And this because of His
glory? Now how do you suppose that the righteous will NOT
be burned? What?!! Can we look upon the face of God THEN
and LIVE?
It must be possible. All we have to do is think about it.
God makes exceptions...
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 7:12 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/29 11:47 AM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
In Joseph Smith's interpretation of the Book of Mormon it
also states that 'no one can look on the face of God unless
he has the priesthood. When he wrote that, even he didn't
have the priesthood. So why does his first vision contradict
both the Bible and the Book of Mormon? I have seen you write
quite a few times lately 'if God wants to' he can do
anything. That's true but not in this case. It is not His>>
will that we look upon His face otherwise don't you think He
would have shown Himself to Moses or Abraham? Why just
Joseph Smith? I need more proof than just your
transfiguration saga.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 7:13 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/29 2:57 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
In the first vision, Smith did not speak of being
transfigured. Nice try.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 7:14 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/29 5:29 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Open those seals, Proclus. I have been anxiously waiting for
days. Why do you torture me so?
stigmata?
Stephenie
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 7:15 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/01 12:04 AM
TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Stephenie:
Just as the claim of Joseph Smith is that He saw God the
Father and His Son Jesus Christ, both resurrected and
glorified exalted beings or Gods, so we have scripture in
the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham where these
righteous prophets ALSO saw the face of God, and lived.
In the book of Moses (in the Pearl of Great Price) it reads
that Moses spoke to God as a man speaketh with his friend,
face to face. It was the same as with Joseph Smith.
I'm sorry you thought there was an inconsistency here, but
there isn't.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 9:44 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/01/1992
"Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord? The Lord can do
anything." Can the Lord break the law, Grant? Mormon
leaders have taught that if he broke the law, He would cease
to be God. The Mormon God says, "I the Lord am BOUND when
ye do what I say." If you say that he acts from outside the
law then you are turning him into the Xtian Lord.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, what is the mechanism of this transfiguration? Some
Mormons seem to think of it as a shield of some kind.
Perhaps it is more as the word itself implies. The
consciousness is unseated. One does not see God with his
physical eyes but with other eyes which are specially
designed for this purpose. The vision of the heavenlies is
thus a kind of virtual reality, a construct that is
fabricated for the benefit of our own particular
limitations.
You have plenty of words Grant, but no explanations. Let's
hear it!
stigmata indeed
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 7:55 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 10:47 AM
TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Stephenie:
You operate from the standpoint that the Bible is the
complete compilation of everything and anything that was
ever revealed to a prophet. It isn't. We know of certain
books even referenced by other prophets in the Bible which
are not in the Bible. What of this? What are we to learn
from this? That there are additional insights and
discoveries which cannot be had in the KJV of the Bible.
Even though the KJV contains the fulness of the gospel, it
does not contain all of the mysteries of heaven.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 7:57 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 10:47 AM
TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Stephenie:
Joseph did tell others about it, but as young as he was he
could not predict the contempt that people would have for
his experience. Everyone knew about him and his experience.
He did not deny it, and he didn't try to downplay it. He
held firm over it, and as a result he was persecuted greatly
and it caused much sorrow to him to experience the hatred.
The church grew by leaps and bounds those days, and it was
because of the zeal which Joseph Smith felt for his divine
commission. He did go about proclaiming the good news, but
more so after he got his authority from God, which came
several years later.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 7:57 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 11:49 AM
TO: THOMAS GOODWIN (PHJX44A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Tom:
I proclaim that there are 3 Gods, the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Ghost. This is no wonder, for the Bible
communicates this truth more than the idea that they are
ONE MASS, and somehow pray to each other...
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 7:58 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 11:50 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mike:
I don't offer any explanations? I try to reason. I try to
avoid a chapter and verse bash. This is just my method of
trying to make sense.
The scriptures state that "God's ways are not man's ways"
do they not?
If this is so, then we cannot ASSUME that the commandments
we now live by are necessarily the complete picture of what
God is constrained by, can we?
This is all I have tried to say. If God commands his people
to do a different thing, it may be that He has a purpose in
it. Remember that His purpose is to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man. He wiped out a wicked
earth once with a flood, remember? He can do what He deems
necessary to accomplish his purposes.
I am not saying or teaching anything that cannot be found
and understood from the Bible alone, however, there are
other scriptures that also teach this principle. A
commandment as we know it may come or go, depending upon
what the will of the Lord is.
The greatest example of this in the Bible, is how the Law of
Moses was fulfilled, and a MAJOR deviation to the
commandments of the day was implemented!!
Can you imagine how the practicing Jews of the meridian of
time must have felt to hear the words of Jesus Christ and
doing away with so many of the things that they felt were
commandments? If they were not converted to the divinity of
the Lord Jesus Christ at that time, then I can imagine that
they had a tough time accepting it, if not rejecting it.
What of the law BEFORE Moses implemented his???
There are patterns in the Bible alone, that illustrate that
God the Father may change His laws and commandments over
time. It has happened before. This is why there is a need
for prophets, so that God can dynamically communicate with
his people. Prophets are also a pattern that was
established in the Bible.
I look for patterns in the Bible, not necessarily chapter
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 7:58 PM
and verse. It is the patterns that help to make sense of a
lot of things. And it lines up with the LDS faith rather
well.
Grant (big picture)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:00 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 12:04 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Proclus, what did you mean when you said if God acts outside
the law then he becomes the Christian Lord?
stupidus but educatibus,
me
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:01 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 4:21 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Grant, what of the broken plates of the Book of Mormon that
were never translated? What of the unfinished __Inspired
Edition__ of Joseph Smith? What of the interpretation of the
Dead Sea Scrolls now being made public? What of all the
doctrinal changes made since the first printing of the BoM?
What of the Council of Fifty? I don't think the Word of God
is on trial here. Or is it?
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:03 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 4:23 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
As did the first printing of the First Vision. I842 as I
recall. But this story didn't match the original story did
it? Whatever would have made him think that telling anyone
he had seen God would have caused great persecution? Could
it have been that the Bible believing Christians of his day
would have shown him the scripture that 'no one can look
upon the face of God and live'? And isn't it true that>>>
the account written in 1833, Joseph Smith states that he had
a 'heavenly vision' of the Lord and not an 'earthly visit'
of the Father and Son? Orsen Pratt stated that 'God sent his
angels to the 14 year old Joseph'. Orsen Hyde stated 'Why
did not the Saviour come Himself--because to the angels was
committed the power of reaping the earth'. Angels were also
mentioned by Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff and John
Taylor. It seems to me that if the Lord appeared to me that
he would have lots to say about my lifestyle and just to
mention that Joseph Smith was a known delver into the things
of the occult as was his family. Wouldn't the Lord have>>>
something to tell Joseph about cleaning up his act? Instead
he bestowes the 'beginnings' of a new religious philosophy
upon him based on 'a total and complete apostasy' of His
beloved body of believers and the ineligible act of becoming
an Aaronic/Melchizedek priest. I think there is something
wrong with this picture, Grant. As always, I know you are
prepared to straighten out this mess.
thanks
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:04 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 4:23 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
"God is not a man that He should lie". God is bound by his
law. It is funny to me to hear you say that Jesus Christ
fulfilled the Mosaic Law which includes the priesthood. Both
the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods were satisfied in
the Person of Jesus Christ.
even broader picture
Stephenie
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 9:52 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KBHD86A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/02/1992
Steph
I'm surprised to hear you say that "God is bound by his
law." I thought that most Xtians believed God to exist in
eternity, completely separate from this universe and its
laws. He created from the outside and exists on the
outside, something like the platonic ideal. We can never be
like him.
This is in stark contrast to the Mormon God who has a
physical body and lives in the universe, near a planet
named kolob. He created the world from material on hand. He
wants us to be like him.
If the boy Joseph said he saw God and He was like a man and
the Son was standing on His right hand (that must have
hurt), then it is no small wonder that Xtians reacted
negatively. IT ONLY CONTRADICTS EVERYTHING THAT THEY
BELEIVE ABOUT GOD! Not only that, What is the purpose of
this visitation if the whole revelation of God is contained
in the bible? Joseph's philosophy was challenging to
Xtianity from the very beginning.
the One who moves in mysterious ways
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 10:02 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/02/1992
Grant
I really seem to have opened a can of worms with this one.
You did a wonderful job of explaining how the Mormon God
changes religious law. His requirements for his children
change over time. What is required is to obey Him. All of
this is easily shown within the Mormon context. >>>>>>>>>>>>
You make no mention of physical laws. Did He obtain his
godhood by tweeking the physical laws around in a similar
way. If so, it could be similarly said, we cannot ASSUME
that the physical laws we now live under are necessarily
the complete picture of what God is constrained by. On the
surface this seems like a trivial statement. Isn't this the
very definition of a god? The remarkable implication is
that the Mormon God is changing the physical laws by which
the universe operates. Sounds like fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I want to tell you that I don't really believe that God has
ultimate control over the law. Why would such a god choose
to use the law. Why would he live in the universe at all,
let alone on a planet? Every miracle in the scriptures will
one day have a material explanation. Look in the 41st
chapter of Job. Here is a list of some of the lofty powers
of God. When it was written, man could do none of them.
Now, we can do alot of them. Soon we will be able to do
many more. When we attain the technology to do them all,
will we be gods? Will we be God?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Which picture is bigger?
proclus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRITE A MESSAGE 03/08/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SEND TO: MARY WITHAM (DWJV72A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Mary
Nice to hear from you! Steph is much easier to get along with since
she stopped hiding behind that innocent and curious facade. Now, she
is easier to understand and I can recognize her strengths. I haven't
been on the board yet today so I don't know how much longer that is
going to last.
I still like to take credit for the increase in calmness. I showed
the mormons that they didn't always have to confront the others all
the time. We can have our private jokes and be what we are without
having to justify it. The non-LDS are less on the defensive as a
result and can give us some interesting and even constructive input.
This is why Jas is looking more like a mormon everyday. The only
problem with this is you just can't avoid the fly by night bashers
like Dave Brown. Oh Well.
characterize
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/08/92 10:42 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KBHD86A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/08/1992
Here it is Steph, and there's more if people are interested.
Many would know little about Reed Durham's explosive speech
connecting Joseph Smith to the Masonic Legend of Enoch if it
hadn't been for GODMAKERS. Here's a beauty from the
writings of Dave;
"...in the pre-existence, there was a Secret Doctrine that
was given by Deity...to the Earth first to Adam [who] was to
carefully guard this Secret Doctrine because it contained
all the Mysteries...[including] the secret name of God.
"Adam then bestowed it upon his son, Seth, who guarded it
very carefully, only among the inner circle of believers,
and then it was handed down until it came to Enoch...the
central figure in the legend.
"It is with Enoch that the remarkable resemblances with
Joseph Smith and Mormon history became >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
disconcertingly clear."
He then goes on to innumerate some particularities of each
story. If you are interested I can post the details.
It has also been made apparent that there are some
newcomers to this subject who would benefit from some of our
earlier discussions so the next two posts will be by way of
review.
Enoch and the city of Joseph
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/09/92 4:38 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/09 3:17 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
Proclus, Brigham Young said that 'all Christians were
grovelling in darkness' and that the Christian God is the
"Mormon's devil". Actually it was John Taylor, the 3rd.
Mormon President, who said that "Christianity was hatched in
hell" and "a perfect pack of nonsense..the devil could not
have invented a better engine to spread his work". If
Christianity were hatched in hell and the Christian God the>
Mormon's devil then the changes in tactics that now has
Mormon missionaries protesting to Christians, "Our God is
the same as your God", is extremely dishonest!!"
Stephenie
Where's that Masonic stuff? You're torturing me again!
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/09/92 4:44 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KBHD86A
SUBJECT: MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
DATE: 03/09/1992
Thanks for the clarification Steph! It seems that the
differences between Mormonism and Xtianity were more obvious
in the days of Joseph, Brigham, and John. Now days some
Mormons seem to think that they are a part of Xtianity. I
think these early leaders would be turning in their tombs.
turning
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/11/92 10:43 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/09 8:05 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MICHAEL PARKER (RDWJ46C)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Michael-
Unfortunately both you and Dave Hunt have "wrested the
scriptures to your destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).
TAKE A LOOK AT GENESIS 3 AGAIN!
Satan comes to Eve, offers her the fruit and claims 2
things: by doing so she will a) "not surely die" (v.4), and
b) her "eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods,
knowing good and evil." (v.5)
By saying so, Lucifer was utilizing a common practice of
his: Half-Truth. He lied about Adam and Eve never dying
(this much is obvious--Gen. 5:5), but HE DID TELL THE TRUTH
when he said that they would "be as gods, KNOWING GOOD AND
EVIL."
SKIP DOWN A BIT: Adam and Eve eat the fruit and their
eyes are opened--they see their nakedness and hide from the
Lord.
Verse 22: "And the Lord God said, Behold, THE MAN IS
BECOME AS ONE OF US, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and
now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree
of life, and eat and live forever..."
If Adam had also eaten of the Tree of Life, he would have
lived forever in his sin.
IN SHORT, Lucifer DID tell the truth! Adam and Eve, by
the Lord's own mouth, had become "as one of us (gods), to
know good and evil." And they would have not died if the
Lord had not placed Cherubim and a flaming sword to guard
the Tree of Life!
THIS is what Brigham Young meant when he said "Lucifer
told the truth." And, yes, it is possible for him to do so,
so stop with the cries of "blasphemy!" and put away the
books by Mr. Hunt. His scriptural knowledge and
understanding of LDS doctrine are just twisted enough to
help him reap windfall profits from book sales.
Mike, tired of seeing the scriptures twisted for
selfish purposes, in Newport Beach, CA
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/11/92 10:54 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: RDWJ46C
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/11/1992
Mike
I certainly don't believe Dave is infallable. Why do you
suppose it is that Xtians find the Mormon godhood doctrines
so
"BLASPHEMOUS"
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/11/92 11:04 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/10 6:24 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Yes Grant,
Lets see what strange bedfellows masonry and mormonism
are...I would like to hear your explanations...Let me warn
you however, that the standard answers will not do. These
are easily refuted by examining the history of masonry. Care
to go a few rounds with an avid student of masonry? Both
political and religious and the theft of
masonic rites for use in the mormon temple.? Fair warning
however this will entail discussion of past and current
rituals of both the masons and mormons, history of both, and
maybe even a bit of world history. What do you think, could
this be stimulating discussion? We can leave all the other
topics behind, and instead, concentrate on the beginnings
of the temple ceromonys and how they were lifted from
masonic teachings.....Michael, how about you?
Allan (looking for a fez to get me in the mood)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/11/92 11:11 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/11 2:23 PM
TO: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
You guys go ahead.
I've made a committment to hold these things sacred, and I
wont discuss them outside the temple. I love to debate, but
not strong enough to do this.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/11/92 11:10 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/11/1992
Grant
I am happy to see that you have given off on your insistance
that there is no connection between Mormonism. Obviously
you have been swayed by the overwhelming evidence. Welcome
aboard! Whence points the compass
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/11/92 11:15 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/09 7:16 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Sure, Proclus, Send 'em on. This is what I have been
patiently waiting for.
in the city by the sea,
Stephenie
wish I had a nickname. I hate to type 9 letters at the end
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/15/92 2:48 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/14 11:04 AM
TO: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
FROM: MICHAEL LANCASTER (NNGB32A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
To Allan Rifleman,
In your proposed debate with Grant (and others), will you
support your facts with a bibliography of non-fiction
works? Or, will this be the gospel according to personal
opinion, which has a better place under BOOKS/FICTION.
Michael Lancaster, Editor, API Television News
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/15/92 3:08 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/15 11:12 AM
TO: ALL
FROM: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Grant,
I guess it is time to start a new note...there is not
necessarily a connection between masonry and mormonism
1. The masonic grand lodge in Ill. basiclly had to stop
mormons from becoming masons as they thougt tht ever mormon
was going to become a mason.
2. Joseph Smith gave the "Mason in distress" signal as I
have discussed in previous notes. and this was written about
by a mormon historian.
3. The use of the masonic compass and square
4. The use of the same analogies in the temple that the
masons use in their rituals.
5. The same basic blood oaths
6. even Basicly the same rituals with just a few words
changed.
There is definately questions as to the authenticity of the
mormon temple rituals when compaered side by side with the
Masonic rites and the history of masonry in mormonism. Allan
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/16/92 7:32 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/15 10:13 PM
TO: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
FROM: TERESA TERRY (RBWK95B)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
I just wrote a long note in the previous subject on just
this information. I know nothing of masonic rituals, but I
am a convert to the LDS church and have read the LDS temple
rituals long before becoming a member. The fact (and I would
suppose that is a fact, I don't know for myself) that Joseph
Smith used masonry symbols for the Temple cerimonies DOES
NOT bother me in the least. The important thing (and every
LDS on this board should know that) is the spiritual lessons
being taught, not the words used to teach them! Christ whole
ministry was spent teaching that the spirit behind the laws
were more important then the laws themselves. The temple
cerimonies serve a double purpose. Not only to teach us the
law, but to teach us the spiritual laws too. And the whole
temple is set up to do just that. Even the placement of the
rooms is done in a way to remind and teach spiritual
lessons. The Temple is FULL of symbolism. But not symbolism
in a worshipful sense. Symbolism in a teaching sense. This
is openly taught and I don't know why other LDS have not
mentioned this. Although it is generally taught that
discussion of the temple is too sacred to be done openly, it
has also been taught there are only a few actual "too
sacred" topics. Discussion of the purpose of the Temple is
not one of them. Maybe if we discussed WHY we have the
Temple more, and stopped dwelling on specifics as to HOW, we
could get a lot more accomplised. Especially when the HOW
doesn't really matter. The HOWS are sacred not secret so as
to not distract from the experience. The experience is the
most important thing because it is from the experience, not
all the words, that we learn the spiritual lessons. My
opinion of the matter (and I should state that this is MY
opinion, and not every other LDS on this board) is that if
Joseph Smith felt that the mason rituals would best convey
what he was trying to teach, then that's fine by me. I don't
worship Joseph Smith, I worship God. I do recognize Joseph
Smith to be a prophet. Therefore, he was bound by man's ways
to teach God's laws. That's a prophets job. Not an easy
task. It's not important how he accomplished it. The
important thing is that he did. Our lives are greatly
benefited by the temple lessons that we learn.
TerriDave Thread 4
=============
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/16/92 7:35 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/16 6:15 PM
TO: TERESA TERRY (RBWK95B)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
You stated that if Joseph Smith chose Masonic rituals to
convey what he was trying to teach, it was alright by you.
What you may not realize is that is was not alright by the
Masons. In the Masonic Order when the initiate enters into a
degree and learns this degree, he has to take a vow of
secrecy never to divulge anything that takes place in any of
the degrees. As one progresses from the lowest to the >>
highest degree, the oath becomes more involved, more
binding, if you will. I am at a loss because I don't know
how high of a degree Smith attained in the Masonic Order but
even if he was a MM, he knew all about the oaths of secrecy.
He devulged those ceremonies and symbolisms in his
formulation of the temple ceremonies and it didn't sit well
with the Masons of his day as it doesn't today. This is why
I question the real happenings at the scene of the Carthage
jail incident. Was it irrate citizens of the town who did
him in or angry Mormons who were fed up with his doctrine or
was it the Mason who were fulfilling the consequences of >>
the oaths taken by Smith and his brother? It is written that
Smith gave the Masonic 'distress' sign and not one Mason
acknowledged it. Funny thing because this sign was very
important to them. Something else that puzzles me about
those times. Smith was the mayor and a very prominant and
powerful figure at the time. Why do you suppose anyone would
want to assassinate someone who was such an outstanding
figure in the community? Perhaps some history from Mormonism
would help clear up these descrepencies.
thanks
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/23/92 8:20 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/19 1:24 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Michael,
from my understanding it is challenging for many
mormons just to get through the endowment ceremony with out
leaving for fear that something was not correct in the
doctrine and principles taught in the temple.....although
I find the rituals quite fasinating and the study of the
doctrine changes and additions continue to fascinate me. A
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/23/92 8:23 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/23 1:05 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Proclus!!! I hereby call you to task!!!!!!!
I am now seven chapters into Decker and Hunt's THE
GODMAKERS, and if things don't get better real fast, I am
going to be looking to you to refund the 9 bucks I blew on
this garbage. Yes, Mike you have introduced me to great
authors in the past: Wilson, Crowley, Alli, Leary. But you
may have fallen flat on your face with this one.
It is true that the main points of this book are adequately
researched and documented, and some real and thorny problems
are presented, most of which can be summed up in the two
words "Brigham Young" (see Stew grinning). But what a
trashy, slanted, deceitful presentation. This book is a
cruel and colored caricature of Mormonism. It reminds me of
one of those "Hofmekler's People" paintings that appears
in...in... well, you know what smutty magazine I am refering
to. >>>>>>>
Some specific complaints:
Paganism. They love to compare the pagans to the
Mormons. They never give an adequate definition of "pagan."
They ignore the fact that Xtianity and paganism also share a
few points of doctrine.
Hinduism. Same complaint as above.
Case studies. The ex-mormons who are presented as
examples are just a bit too extreme and contived. They
represent a strange extreme of mormon thought that may not
even exist (at least I never met any).
The God/Goddess obsession. You would think, from
reading this book, that the idea of becoming a god/goddess
is the one thought that obsesses and motivates all good
Mormons. Not so. In fact it is treated by most LDS as a
sort of half forgotten "Oh yeah, now that you mention it we
do believe that." doctrine.
While there is some accuracy to this book, it has a hard
time floating to the surface through all the other
efluvium. It scares me to think that there may be some folk
out there whose opinions of Mormonism may have been formed
by this book. >>>>>>
But, willing to be totally fair, I will finish this book,
and if it improves any, I will let you know about it.
\/ St Andrew the Dogmaphobe
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/23/92 8:23 PM
/\
PS Hey, you guys. Did you see that? I actually posted a
note that was about A BOOK, and not just another contibution
to the same old "I'm right, you're wrong" flagellation that
has become the norm in these parts. I am SO proud of
myself.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/23/92 10:44 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKSP88A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/23/1992
Andy
Task and we shall retrieve. Wait till you get to chapter 9!
Dave's great, but he doesn't compare with real authors like
the ones you mentioned. May I suggest for a "New Aeon
Mormon" such as your self, that you read Dave as you might
read the handbook writers you mentioned. Dave is very
opinionated! If he thinks some behavior is in error, THAT
it is a sure sign that it is worth trying. RESULTS WILL
FOLLOW! He really has a good sense for HGA magick, although
he disdains it. His presentation is definitely slanted, but
his documentation is impeccable. Turn on your BS filter and
take the plunge!
The God/Goddess obsession is a wonderful example. Many
Mormons can't embrace the full power of their religion
BECAUSE they are so uncomfortable with the idea of
God-dess-hood. If they adopted the orientation that Dave is
fighting, if they lived expressly for the chance of becoming
a god-dess, they would find themselves progressing in the
Mormon Matrix.
I too was disappointed that with the pagan connections made
in the book. The connections are so blatantly obvious that
I think Dave missed the boat. In his zeal to raise babalon
he neglected the greek. We can remedy that defect in this
subject.
I really don't see any danger from the inflammatory nature
of his presentation. Most people can't relate to it at all,
let alone form an opinion of Mormonism based on it. Only the
most weirdly zealous pre-trib raptured fundie would take
these pre-conceived diatribes seriously. It is the
information that is valuble, not the mode of transmission.
Don't read the book, DO the book!
Lo! the Goddess unveiled. Isis Sothis, with starry lantern
rules the Night!
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/23/92 10:45 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/23 10:13 PM
TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
St. Andrew,
So the mormon God/Godess is a half forgotten doctrine for
most of you? This is part of one of your doctrines of
gaining "celestial" glory and getting your "heavenly"
reward. If this is true, I feel sorry for these people as I
can only wonder if they knew the full truth of the mormon
doctrine, how many would still practice these stange
concepts.
Allan
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:51 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/29 7:56 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
***** Oh Wow ****
Did I 'do' Chapter 9 (of THE GODMAKERS by Decker and Hunt,
to fill in you newcomers) or did Chapter 9 'do' me???? I am
reminded of a certain Sparky Wallace, a fellow missionary I
met while preaching the gospel in the cornfields of New
Jersey. Elder Wallace's companion at the time was a rather
odd duck who did and said a number of wild things. When
Elder Wallace was feeling particularly confused at the
antics of this companion, he would place his closed fist at
his temple and then, while muttering the words
"Kuru-kuru-pah," suddenly let his hand fly open. The
overall effect of this little ritual was to very graphically
communicate that his mind had been blown.
I feel a bit like Elder Wallace.
Chapter 9 centers around some of the work of a Mormon
historian by the name of Reed C. Durham. It is Brother
Durhams contention that the ties between Mormonism and
Masonry go far beyond the Masonic origin of the Temple
ceremony. In fact, the whole story of Joseph's finding and
translating of the Book of Mormon can find its parallels in
Masonic lore.
Consider the prophet Enoch. While Enoch gets only a few
lines in the bible, there is quite a bit told about him in
Masonic tradition. He was 25 years old when he was called
to be prophet (Smith was 25 when the BoM was published and
the church founded). Enoch recieved records of the "true
doctrine" from his predecessors. These records were
engraved on gold and brass plates, in the language of the
Egyptians. Enoch preserved these records by placing them in
a vault in a hill. Sound familiar????
But wait! There is more. Along with the plates, Enoch
recieved a metal ball (Liahona?), a breastplate, and the
Urim & Thummim. Also, in some sections of the Doctrine and
Covenants Joseph Smith is refered to as Enoch. (See sections
78 & 104. But you will have to consult an older edition of
the D&C. It seems that the name Enoch was dropped from the
more recent printings. Now I wonder why they did that????)
"But Joseph Smith didn't become a Mason until years after
these events." No, he didn't. Not until 1842, 12 years
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:51 PM
after the Church sprang into being. But his older brother
Hyrum did (Mount Moriah Lodge #112 of Palmyra, NY.) Many of
the early converts to the church were also Masons.
There is more, but I am running out of space. So, what are
we to think? Shall we ignore it (or call it coincidence)
and hope that it goes away? Shall we do as some of the
early church brethren did and assume that Masonry, like
Xtianity, was a corruption of an earlier correct system and
that Joseph had been called to restore it to its former
glory? Parley Pratt and Joseph Fielding, both
contemporaries of Joseph Smith, seemed to think so.
Or should we look into it further and, like brother Durham,
run the risk of having to beg the gentlemen in Salt Lake
City not to toss us out upon our ears.
\/
To quote Robert Plant: "And it makes me wonder." /\
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:54 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/30 1:44 PM
TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
Better watch out the Stake presidency may recind your temple
privilges...or worse yet, Ezra "Moon Beam" Benson just might
call the Utah division ot the Danites to covertly come into
your home and give you a "vison" of sorts.
Allan
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 11:22 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKSP88A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 03/30/1992
\/
/\
'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds!
"But you will have to consult an older edition of the D&C.
It seems that the name Enoch was dropped from the more
recent printings. Now I wonder why they did that????" The
implication is clear. The boys in the big white building
see that the Masonic connection is not consistent with the
downhome Xtian image that the church is trying to portray.
Other Masonic elements have been removed from Mormon
practice. Also, the BOM is now called Another Testament of
Christ, as if this association with the Bible will lend it
greater validity.
This sentiment is behind the growing popularity in the
church of the 4in1 editions of the standard works. It was
once common to look down on 4in1's since they do not
distinguish the BOM from the Bible. Now, the BOM is being
hidden within the cover of the Bible. Mormons seem to be
sacrificing their unique and distinctive tradition on the
altar of worldly respectability. What has happened to the
pioneer spirit!
"Shall we do as some of the early church brethren did and
assume that Masonry, like Xtianity, was a corruption of an
earlier correct system and that Joseph had been called to
restore it to its former glory?" This seems to be Durham's
contention. "...if Masonry in reality contained any of the
true ancient Mysteries, it would have been necessary for
Joseph to recieve it." He states further;
"The philosophic and more reflective Masonic scholars have
always believed that the symbols embodied in Masonry were
indeed the ancient Mysteries coming from remote antiquity."
Our friend, Christopher would more than likely be pleased if
we traced them back to Eden! He, of course, would attribute
them to the serpent.
mercurial
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 11:22 PM
Ps Who was this "odd duck" with the unfortunate habit of
tweeking his companion's brains? Sounds like a real bugger!
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/03/92 9:22 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: ALL
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 04/03/1992
While we are on the subject of Chapter 9, I thought that
some of would be interested in the following quote.
"...the awful mysteries not to be transgressed, violated, or
divulged, because the tongue is restrained by reverence for
the gods. Whoever on earth has seen these is blessed, but
he who has no part in the holy rites has another lot as he
wastes away in dank darkness."
definitely
proclus
PS Does anyone have a guess where I found this?
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/08/92 9:39 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/07 5:30 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
No guess on where you found that, but I hope it has
something to do with the subject at hand (Dave Hunt), or we
might have to turn you in to The Authorities.
But speaking of Dave Hunt, I continue to plod through that
awful little book, THE GODMAKERS. Ok, so Chapter 9 was a
blast (7 & 8 were so-so), and made the whole thing worth
the price of admission, but how the rest of the book
stinks!!!
I believe it was you, Proclus, who said that the best lies
always contain a slice of truth. This seems to be the
Hunt-Decker "modus operandi." Yeah, the documentation is
{mostly} meticulous and accurate. But why couldn't they
leave the book at that, the basic core of truth, and leave
out all the hype, slander and smoke? {Because the publisher
would have laughed at a 50 page book, that's why.}
So, my final word on GODMAKERS is this: I think I'll try
to find Reed Durham's book, NO HELP FOR THE WIDOW'S SON {the
basis for chapter 9}, and then leave my copy of GODMAKERS
sitting innocently on the bench at the bus stop in front of
the MTC. {Evil laughter, thunder, screams of agony}
So, what are we going to talk about next? Something from
Signature Press? Lighthouse Ministry? Kolob Limited?
\/ St Andrew
/\
PS Had to laugh when I noticed that a few of Hunt's >>>>
sources were Mark Hofman forgories! What a hoot!!!!
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/08/92 10:10 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKSP88A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 04/08/1992
Andy
Maybe you are right about this subject. Is it a flogged
horse? The real reason that I founded this subject was to
discuss the pagan connection with Mormonism. Giving a
popular format to the Durham paper. and making explicit the
Masonic aspect of the Mormon tradition was a huge success.>>
On the other hand, Hunt did a poor job with the paganism.
It is easy to find parallels and connections of Mormonism
with the early religions of the mesopotamean basin. Dave
was so rabid in his insistance that the Mormon endowment is
a new expression of the Babylonian Mysteries that he forgot
to demonstrate the connection. That would have been
something! I find this surprising in that he has been
called the professional documenteur.
Now that the Masonic connection is no longer being
questioned, maybe we should move on to the roots of the
tradition, things Greek and Egyptian. There is a pretty
good discussion of this going on right now under TEMPLE
RITUAL, but I think that this needs a closer look.
Perhaps I'll reveal the source of my little mystery in a new
subject. I'll give you a little hint though;
HYMN TO D______
What is Kolob Limited?
Where's the man with the grey hat?
What is Mark Hofmann doing with the royalties from his book?
When proclus going to write a book?
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/16/92 2:05 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KBHD86A
SUBJECT: MORMONS DAVE HUNT
DATE: 04/16/1992
OK Steph
I'm game. I want to hear more about the Masonic Orb. What
do you think is the connection to the liahona? This is new
to me.
proclus
Kim Bower
=========
----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE 12/22/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B)
Subject: QUESTIONS?????
Sent on: 12/22 at 09:16 PM
I am writing because I have read some of your notes on the LDS bb
and can see that you don't just accept answers from Salt Lake at face
value. You seem to study and come to your own conclusions even if they
disagree (heaven forbid) with the opion of church authorities. This
seems a rare quality (at least in Dallas) for faithful members
(please, correct me if I'm wrong). I am like you in that sense.
I joined the church when I was barely> 16 years old and the product
of a very dysfunctional family with an alcoholic father and a mentally
ill mother since early childhood. I think I was looking for the strong
parent figure I never had at home and the church fit the bill very
nicely.
At age 22, I married Ron Bower (you may have read some of his
notes), still an idealistic Mormon. Some of his family attended the
ceremony in the Jordan River Temple (none of my family>> are LDS).
Because of Ron's interest in LDS history, he found many
discrepancies (most of which I'm sure you're aware) between the
official church version (what he was taught as a child and believed
literlly) and other sources. He
began to share his concerns with me. I
I do not believe this was with the intent to destroy my faith but to
share his feelings and concerns about what was
bothering him. I felt increasingly>>> uncomfortable attending church
and pretending prending everything was rosy.I shared my feelings with
a couple of friends and they did'nt seem to have a cluee as to what I
was talking about and advised me that I just need to have more faith
in the "official version". Shortly after, we requested our names be
removed from church records (back when there was a court for this
procedure). Reading DIALOG regularly was not just not enough for us to
feel accepted and>> valued as an active member of the church.
Sometime after, we became Catholic. Even though I had many
spiritual experiences in the last 10 years as a Catholic, I did'nt
feel very motivated to practice my new faith on a regular basis. We
now have two children and I longed for the strong vision and sense of
community not only for myself but for
our children. Because of their strong vision, community spirit, and
sense of>> duty, Mormons seem to acomplish amazing things. God truly
works with this faithful people. I thought it the best place to
express my own faith as well as
to raise our children. Ron encouraged me to do what was best for me
and agreed
that maybe it is the best place for our children at the present (but
not without
some reservation). I should also say that I pray about this decision
continually and receive constant confirmation. (Another note to
follow)KB
DISTRIBUTION:
name unlisted (PMHR30A)
RUSSELL PEEK (MRKS10A)
BRET BOTTGER (SHSK79A)
ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE 12/22/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B)
Subject: QUESTIONS??? PT 2
Sent on: 12/22 at 10:10 PM
Thank you for hanging in there for pt 2.
I was baptized along with my oldest daughter (age 8) this summer.
All should be glorious!!! Right??? Well, I'm afraid it's not! I
still have the same doubts I had before (ie: JS's character and
actions, evolution of the First Vision, lack of evidence to support
historicity of the BOM and continual doctrine of LDS church being the
ONLY true and valid faith).>>>>>>
I also add that these things are NEVER up for discussion or question
(this would help immensly). In any meeting, you must espouse the
"official" line on these issues or risk being put in your place and
labled trouble maker or worse.
Now, I'm not interested in destroying anyones testimony or
offending their sensibilities. I have tremendous respect for others
faith. I even admire it at times. I find myself biting my toung a lot
in Sunday School and Relief Society> because I don't want to step on
any toes. Is there room for differing opions
and still maintain that strong sense of
community and vision the church has. How?? When?? I only see this
happening if the First Presidency encourages these
questions from the members.
What are your thoughts on these issues? (I have more but these are
the most important to me.)
LDS should be proud and knowledgable about their colorful history
and we >>> should be able to discuss openly the actions of some very
fascinating indiveduals.
Kim
PS:Why are you LDS? Are you active? Why or why not? How did you work
this out in your own mind? If these questions are to personal, please
disregard.
DISTRIBUTION:
name unlisted (PMHR30A)
RUSSELL PEEK (MRKS10A)
BRET BOTTGER (SHSK79A)
ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRITE A MESSAGE 12/23/92
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SEND TO: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: QUESTIONS?????
Kim
I don't know where to start. You've had some marvelous adventures and
they are continuing. St. Andrew and I thought that Ron might be a
toad. That's board slang for a poser. I hate to bring up such
distasteful suspicions. We have had some real jerks pull our heart
strings. If you hang with the on-line community long enough you will
find out what I am talking about. Your letter convinced me that you
guys are genuine. I even had my wife read it. You and she have even
more in common.
When I started to challenge the Church, it was hard on her testimony.
I'd sit in Church, but my mind would be filled with resentment. No
one would address the issues that were important to me. Andy and I had
been mission companions. Prodigy became a tool for us to maintain our
freindship. Though we
lived far apart, we could send each other e-mail and do things
together. Something wonderful and unexpected happened though. The
forum gave us a chance to air our most challenging thoughts. These
discussions have transmuted my testimony to a new and I think more
mature level. I can't even remember the last time I sat in church
with a black mood. I think this is also true for some of our new
found freinds too. Each of us has found our own way of facing the
problems of historicity in the Church's claims. I feel the love of
God immanently in the everyday workings of my life.
Let me put it all a little bit more plainly. You and Ron now have a
place where you can discuss these problems openly with like-minded
individuals. We don't have to wait for the First Presidency to tell
us it's OK. We can just do it. Sure, there are people on the boards
that will give you the old lines like, "You just need to have more
faith
in the official version." or "Why do you have such a spirit of
contention?" We can handle that now, can't we?
Please give my best to Ron and forward this note to him. He needs to
hear it too.
Let's get to work!
proclus
ps Here are some freinds that you might want to add to your mailing
list.
MELISSA WUNDERLY (GKBD00B)
KERRY SHIRTS (CWXH30A)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
READ A MESSAGE 07/04/93
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B)
Subject: Leaving P$
Sent on: 07/04 at 01:10AM
Dear Mike (proclus),
I read in one of your notes that you plan on leaving P$ soon
(can't say that I blame you). I wanted you to know how much I have
appreciated your notes on the bb as well as your personal notes to Ron
and me. I have copied many of them to keep.
When I first came on P$, I was at a crises point as far as my
faith was concerned in many areas (my original note to you expressed
some of those areas). Thanks to you and some others on P$ (as well as
publications like Sunstone, Dialogue and Signiture Books) I have been
able to reconcile many of my original complaints and redirect my
attention in other more positive areas. It has also helped me a great
deal to be able to express some of my views in the presence of other
members, and
get feedback, without fear of 'retribution'.
Ron and I will be on NVN soon and hope you will seriously give it
consideration. We especially love your WICCA postings and would like
to read more, especially in relation to the LDS temple ceremony and
communal prayer circles. I am deeply upset that many of the things you
write about are being lost simply because they are not being passed
down to our generation. You have certianly given me a new way to look
at the temple ceremony. Ron has even developed a fascination for
WICCA. >>>
So, come on over to NVN and share your wisdom with all of us. Oh,
and say hello to Trey when you see him. He told me you were planning
to come to the Hill Comorah Pagent this month.
With Love and Truth,
Kim
P.S. I recently subscribed to Exponet II and am anxiously awaiting my
first issue
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