New Age Mormons1
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PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/26/92 6:58 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/26 12:26 AM
TO: ALL
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
From what I've read over the last few years I thought
Mormonism was a lot like New Age? Both groups seem worried
about what they eat? Both groups on this BB have been
accused by people as thinking they become Gods when they
leave this life? Joe Smith has been accused of using drugs
to receive revelation, while I've heard a lot of the NA
people are into smoking the herb. Is there a New Age >>
branch in the Mormon church? Another thing, it seems both
the Mormons and New Agers are into a life before life?
Could Joe Smith have been a New Ager who came on the scene
before his day? Are any of you Mormons out there into using
crystals?
Jas ( The Mormon New Age link hypothesis )
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:47 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
DATE: 02/28/1992
Frank
Hail BoB and nice to meet you.
Did you know that the Mormon god is an extra-terrestrial?
I'm not kidding! The Mormon scriptures reveal that he lives
near a star called kolob. Continuous revelation is a
primary tenant of Mormonism. What some Mormons don't
realize is that the implication is interstellar
communication. If that isn't the weirdest fruitcake new age
idea, yet, it is the implicit teaching of down home apple
pie Mormonism. Is the Mormon god a "space brother"? Let's
find out!
reality is stranger than fantasy!
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:48 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/28 5:26 PM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: FRANK CASALE (RHBH12C)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Jas, would you like to buy a crystal??
Gotta say again, that one universal truth of so caled New
agers is to be anti-dogmatic. I myself willtry any belief
system, at least once, to try to get an idea of thier way of
looking at the world. My current B.S. (belief system, and
yes BullSh*t) is alot more fun than the catholic BS my paren
ts tried to brainwash me into. (not thier fault, but the
churches, after all, they did,t want me to burn in hell!)
Sure you wouldn't like to buy some crystals>?
How about the Gospel according to BOB???
FC
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:51 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/27 12:45 AM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Jason
I've got a related subject going called MORMONS DAVE HUNT.
When I attended Dave's lecture last month, he told me that
he debated a couple of Mormon intellectuals in Washinton.
They told him that Joseph Smith was "the first New Age
Prophet". I think that the urim and thummim story is
remarkably similar to the crystal gazing stories of the New
Agers. I can elaborate this if you would like.
People like Dave are saying these days that disenchanted
Mormons are leaving the church and entering the New Age
Movement. I've seen a little evidence for this but not
much.
out on the rim
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:52 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/27 8:21 PM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Howdy Jas,
The October 1991 issue of Sunstone (the magazine that
caters to us Mormon pseudo-intellectuals) has a delightful
cartoon that shows a Mormon chapel with a number of rooms
labeled for odd purposes (such the 'Humanist Tea Room,' the
'Iron Rod Room,' etc).
Of interest is the steeple, which is labeled "The LDS New
Age Doctrine and Bungee Jumping Platform." I love it.
Yup, the Mormons and the New Agers have more in common
than either of them would feel totally comfortable in
admitting. How about Heavenly Mother? Sounds alot like the
NA Goddess. Also, like Garn (how ya doin, fella?), there are
alot of ex-Mormons who have used Mormonism as a departure
point into other things...such as the Hippie Wanna-be who
lives next door to me. She keeps a Book of Mormon on her
shelf right next to a text on Zen and her copy of The
Aquarian Conspiracy. Also, rumor has it that there
might be a Mormon/Ceremonial Magician causing trouble over
in the Mormon debates...........
Do as Thou Wilt
-Andy
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:54 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/27 9:49 PM
TO: GARN LEBARON JR. (DVMS01A)
FROM: WILLIAM STROUP (HTPC61A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Dear Garen, What a cool idea...Mormoanism as a bridge
between Christianity and the New Age! There are a couple of
ladies packing their bibles around on You and the New Age
who ought to come down to the Mormon BBs and see if they can
convert the Mormons before they get across the bridge into
the New Age. Hey Helen! Come on down!
WHS
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/28/92 11:55 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/28 12:33 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Mike I agree that Joe Smith was probably a New Ager. I
think if New Age people knew more about Smith and his church
they might be converting to Mormonism in mass. A lot of
what these New Agers seem to be looking for can be found in
the Mormon church. I wouldn't doubt that Smith could get
into crystals.
Jas.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 9:15 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: NMFR07A
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
DATE: 03/01/1992
Scott
You missed the point entirely! There are many gods, but not
many of them are said to live on a planet near a distant
star. On the other hand, many new age gods have this in
common with the Mormon diety.
double star
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/01/92 9:23 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 02/29 12:13 PM
TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Several of our local Wiccan priests and priestesses are
ex-Mormons, and I know several ex-Mormon Druids (when you
meet a local Druid organiser with 7 children, and she's
relatively new as a Druid, you almost don't need to ask what
her previous religion was.....)
Domi
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:09 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/01 10:35 PM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Wicca, from "weik" to bend, to shape, is a religion based on
a polytheistic world-view rooted in folk magic and the
development of human potentiality in an ecological
framework. See Cunningham, The Truth About Witchcraft Today,
and Adler, Drawing Down the Moon, for an overview of the
movement. Most Wiccan groups meet outside or in homes, in
groups of 3 to 13 people, for worship, fellowship, healing,
and magic.
Domi
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:09 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/01 10:35 PM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Wiccans may read the Bible if they choose, as a work of
literature and world culture, but it is not a religious book
to us. We are polytheistic and magically focused. There are
Wiccans in every state and throughout the world. We are NOT
New Age (except according to conservative Christians), do
not worship or believe in demons, and have as our first law
or ordain "An it harm none, do as ye will". This Rede is to
be considered before any action, magical or mundane-- might
it harm another? If not, I may act.
Read Farrar, What Witches Do.
Domi
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:09 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 8:14 AM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
JAS
A few months ago in the "I have a question" section of the
Ensign some young soul asked what the church's official
stand on the New Age was. The reply was disgusting. They
took the same stand that the "Fundies" do (They -the
new agers- don't rely on Christ for salvation, they teach
that all are God, etc). But they were more diplomatic about
it than most other churches are.
If the Mormon church is moving anywhere, it is in the
direction of mainstream respectability, not fruit-loop
strangeness of the New Age. Also, many New Age ideals
stress the individual and her own experiences as the main
sources of truth and authority. This would not set well
with the boys at 47 East South Temple. They might find
themselves out of their jobs.
-Slackmaster Andrew
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/02/92 8:12 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/02 8:51 AM
TO: DANA LYBRAND (XSNF71B)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Dana, I see you're here, too! Yeah I think things over there
are very intense. I don't expect it to last much longer.
There's not much room in the corner, if you catch my drift.
Just wanted to say that your questions opened the door to
humor and some of the responses are uplifting!! HaHa. Just
thought I'd come over here and chill for a while. Hope you
guys don't mind. groooovin' on the wind, Steffie
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/04/92 11:15 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
DATE: 03/04/1992
Jas
Andy might have a better answer to this one, but I can tell
you that the term sunstone refers to an artifact from the
Nauvoo temple architecture. I have a replica in my study.
The originals are large chunks of cut limestone. The image
in the stone is that of a sun rising over three tiers.>>>>>
There are also trumpets. Originally there were thirty
sunstones.
The symbolism is said to represent the celestial kingdom,
the mormon heaven. The trumpets are no doubt a symbol of
the restoration.
This fascination with the ways of early mormonism is an
intellectual way to snub the institution of mormonism. A
similar practice is observed in China where the liberals
wear Mao buttons. This annoys the hard liners who have no
respect for Mao, but cannot say anything about it.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/04/92 11:20 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/04 2:52 PM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: THOMAS GOODWIN (PHJX44A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
You said that there is a LDS publication named Sunstone?
Well, sunstone is the aventurescent variety of labradorite
feldspar. So, once again we have a Mormon connection to
crystals as per the title of one of their OWN publications.
More grist for the polemical puzzles.
Best Regards from Tom Goodwin in the Desert
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/04/92 11:20 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/04 8:37 PM
TO: THOMAS GOODWIN (PHJX44A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Tom The only problem is I don't think the Mormon church
thinks much of this publication, but this very well could be
another link. I wonder how they did pick that name??
Jas SW
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/07/92 0:34 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/05 9:55 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
I really can't add anything to that, Proc. I will
emphasize, for those who may not have been paying attention,
that the LDS church has no connection with Sunstone. In
fact, the LDS leaders wish that it would just go away,
symposia and all.
BTW, Mike, Sunstone will be holding a symposium in your neck
of the woods (Chicago) in October. Why don't you go and
stir their pot?
Andy
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/07/92 0:34 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/05 10:01 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Interesting.. In my ward there was a guy who was always
trying to get people to buy the Sunstone, the Bishop didn't
seem offened by it?? Is it that far out that church
officials would like to see it shut down?? Becuase I've
been out of the loop for a while now I'm not as sure of
what's going on. It seems that the more liberal days are
gone for now. Jas Sweet Water
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/07/92 0:46 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKSP88A
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
DATE: 03/07/1992
Andy
I would love to "stir the pot". Maybe there'll be a bunch
of tantric wiccan mormons up there in Chicago since it is so
far from the church centers. I'm not finding any around
Indiana either. Maybe all these nymphs are hiding in the
cornfields. I would also like to know what's in the pot.
Neither Allen R. nor Domi is coming forward with any of the
reputed similarities between wicca and mormonism. Maybe it
is something that they are not allowed to divulge, like
some secret ritual.
sunstoned
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/08/92 11:56 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/08 5:25 PM
TO: ALL
FROM: BARRY OWENS (TSBK97A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
It figures that Rocco would try to equate the New Age
Movement with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints. Rocco is a devout Anti-Mormon Extremist who would
tell the world anything no matter how ridiculous just to
defame the LDS church. I suggest that everyone here ignore
his comments. He is by no means authoritative by any
stretch of the imagination.
The New Age Movement and the LDS church have about as much
to do with each other as drinking Kool-Aid and pregnancy.
Pregnant women may drink Kool-Aid but drinking it certainly
doesn't cause pregnancy. By the same token, equating the
New Age Movement with the LDS Church and saying that the New
Age Movement will probably merge with the LDS church is just
as ridiculous.
Barry
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/12/92 0:44 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/09 6:33 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Proclus... I don't quite understand what Barry is trying to
say. Does he mean Mormonism is so much better then the New
Age that I shouldn't talk about them together? Life can be
hard enough for we new Age Mormons. My Bishop doesn't like
me wearing my crystals to church and when I go up to give my
testimony they won't let me talk about how I've got to
know Joe Smith through Zen. Jas, New Age Mormons
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/12/92 0:45 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/10 8:55 AM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: SCOTT JOHNSON (NMFR07A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Jason, THAT was the HOTTEST thing I have read in years.
You got to know Joseph Smith through Zen. Baby, you've made
it! Welcome home! You will probably find little use for your
ward anymore as you have clearly left the mundane realms of
religion for the true spiritual life of a mystic. Please
keep us posted, you can do your witnessing at least for me
on *P*. NO WAY- WAY! scott.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/12/92 0:46 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/10 6:27 PM
TO: SCOTT JOHNSON (NMFR07A)
FROM: ALLAN RIFLEMAN (NHPC34A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Yes but I found Joseph Smith while channeling on top of
the hill in Palmyra N.Y. were the "golden plates" were
found.
Allan (BTW, an angel told me they were only gold
electroplated as pure gold would have been to heavy for
Joseph Smith to carry around with ease)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/12/92 0:47 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/11 7:49 AM
TO: SCOTT JOHNSON (NMFR07A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
Scott.. While I have reached this higher level of being I
don't want to bail on the old ward just yet. I've been
receiving good vibes that a potential LDS woman might be in
my future. I only hope I'm not getting my vibes mixed up
and the woman in question is hooked on LSD. I may be in
trouble because this is the same channel that's telling me
Jerry Brown will be the next president. Jas Sweet Water.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/12/92 1:13 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: DWJV72A
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
DATE: 03/12/1992
One of the weirder parallels is in the pre-earth life.
Xtians don't beleive in a pre-earthly existance. Many New
Agers hold to the doctrine of reincarnation. While this is
not the Mormon doctrine either, it is at least a belief that
something came before.
Orson Pratt spoke of a transmigration, not of souls, but of
"spiritual particles". New Age texts are often channeled
through angelic beings with names like Enoch, Michael, and
Raphiel. Again this is not at odds with the Mormon origins
of divine writings. The Urim and Thummim motif is not
unlike the crystal gazing of the New Agers.
sunstoned
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/15/92 3:12 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/14 5:19 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A)
SUBJECT: NEW AGE VS MORMONISM
" Oh Goddess, forgive us three errors, that are on us
because of human limitations: Thou art everywhere, but we
worship Thee here.Thou art without form, but we worship Thee
in these forms. Thou hast no need for our prayers and
sacrifices, but we offer these prayers and sacrifices to
Thee.
Oh Mother, forgive us three errors that are on us because
of human limitations: Cleanse our minds and hearts and
prepare us for Thy service."
from the Reformed Druids of North
America service
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/23/92 7:36 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/21 4:28 PM
TO: MICHAEL LANCASTER (NNGB32A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORM CRITICS JOIN
I'd have to agree, we New Age Mormons have seen a drastic
increase in our ranks. New members seem to progress right
through the main church and come to us for a real home.
Jas Sweet Water/ New Age Mormons
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/23/92 7:37 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/23 8:52 AM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM CRITICS JOIN
Danged right, Jas!!!
\/ St Andrew the Dogmaphobe
/\
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 4:51 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/25 10:12 PM
TO: ALL
FROM: LAURIE SORENSEN (GPMF11C)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
I'm confused. What is a New Age Mormon? I live in Happy
Valley (Orem) so maybe I'm "sheltered" but I'm curious to
know what the difference is between the New Age Mormons and
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. Thanks for
your reply.
Laurie in UT
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 4:52 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/26 1:34 PM
TO: LAURIE SORENSEN (GPMF11C)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
You can pick up a few clues by hanging out at the Atticus
Bookstore and Coffee house, in the little farm house next to
Arby's on South State Street. Look for a frequent visitor
named Tina. But don't tell her I sent you. She knows where
I live, and I don't want any rocks coming through my front
window. See what titles they have from Signature books.
Check out the latest issue of Sunstone. Andyroo
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 4:53 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/26 1:34 PM
TO: LAURIE SORENSEN (GPMF11C)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
New Age Mormons are not hypnotized by the fits of policy
statementism that periodically issue forth from the big
white brother building in SLC. They have other hypnotisms.
Mormon Space Brothers
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 4:54 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/28 7:11 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: DANA LYBRAND (XSNF71B)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Ooohhh!!! Great new topic! I can't wait to see what
explanation our resident New Age Mormon gives here... JAS,
WHERE ARE YOU????
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 4:54 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/28 6:57 PM
TO: DANA LYBRAND (XSNF71B)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Dana... Yes I started this topic to bring out some of the
New Age Mormon works which are currently coming out. There
seemed to be a tiny snag with this subject when some of the
traditional Mormons, and others, felt a bit of censorship
was in order. I'd still like to discuss some of the works
of Constance F. Gumbey and Ezra "Moon Beam" Benson.
Jas
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 4:55 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/28 9:31 PM
TO: DANA LYBRAND (XSNF71B)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
As a New Age Mormon, and bible scholar I'd like to point
out some of the problems we have with the main Mormon
church, first a quote: Woe to you, teachers of the law and
Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup
and dish, but inside they are full of greed and
self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of
the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean>>>
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look
beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead
men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the
outside you appear to people as the righteous but on the
inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness" Matthew
25-. We in the New Age Mormon movement are afraid that the
main Mormon church trys to sugar-coat thing too much. The
church is turning into this phony gooody-goody organization.
People on the outside are lead to believe false things in
the name of building up church membership. We New Age >>
Mormons want to start a grassroots movement to bring the
church back to the people. We want people to be able to
open up and feel comfortable being themselves while
worshipping heavenly father.
Jas Sweet Water
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:01 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/29 8:06 AM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Jas sweet water:
Are you sure you're not related to Jerry Brown?
Wouldn't it be nice if worship was so easy as just being
ourselves? The tough thing is that worship involves conform
ing our lives to the way that God has taught through the
prophets. Sometimes, no most all of the time, it involves
denying ones self of pleasures, and gratifications. To the
newly initiated this may seem like a burden or a great
sacrifice, but the beauty of it is that there comes this
great turning point, at which the person no longer feels it
is a burden but rather a privilege. And the Holy Ghost
blesses their life and they feel just great about not doing
things that would cause the SPIRIT to go away. So important
is the need to feel the Spirit, to be happy, that this
converted person has no desire to sin. They would rather
serve the Lord. Jas, this is a better way. A better way
than merely giving in to all of one's passions, appetites
and desires.
There WILL come a time after a certain amount of self denial
where an individual is enlightened to the great happiness of
being close to the Lord. It is a great way to live.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:02 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/29 5:57 PM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Jason, Well said. Chapter 19 of STRANGERS IN
PARADOX, called "Zion: Vision or Mirage," also does a good
job of expressing some of the frustrations that drive some
of us New Age Mormons. (The rest of the book does a good
job of presenting a few of the wilder philosophies that some
of us pursue.)
As much as I would hate to start sounding like Ms. Orris
I think that the organization and doctrine of the church, as
presently constituted, places a rigid and dogmatic framework
over all that transpires in the church. The effect of this
is to create an atmosphere where many feel that they cannot
develop a personal and fulfilling relationship with diety.
Each of us is different, and must find God in our own unique
way. It doesn't work to have some big brother laying down a
rigid formula and then trying to force all of us into its
confines. \/
/\ Andrew
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:03 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/29 5:57 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Grant,
From the contents of your note to Jason, one might get
the impression that you saw him as saying "Hey, guys! Let's
bag the commandments and go do some sinning." That is not
what I saw.
I see no conflict between what Jas wants (drop the lies
and sugar coating; return the church to the people) and what
you want (Be rightious; seek God).
\/
/\ Andrew
(Let's burn the Bishop's Handbook!!!!!!)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:03 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/29 6:04 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Grant... What it sounds like your describing to me is a
person giving up their own individuality to conform to the
the standards of a group. This group in turn gains a
certain control over that person. I do not feel that this
is of God. Every man needs to be himself, live his own
life. "Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and
forth by the waves, and blown here and there and cunning >>
and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead
speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up
into him who is the Head, that is Christ". Eph 4:14-.
A person can only come to understand himself by exsisting
outside a group which place too much control on his life.
We are not infants who need to be lead every inch of the way
through our lives. We are men who must come to realize each
moment as it occurs.
Jas Sweet Water
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:15 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 03/30/1992
Great subject Jas! I think it's your best yet. Good
counsel too. In this regard I leave you the words of the
Beast.
Yet, there are masked ones my servants: it may be that
yonder begger is a King. A King may choose his garment as
he will: there is no certain test: but a begger cannot hide>
his poverty.
beastly
proclusNew Age Mormons2
================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/30/92 5:27 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 03/30 12:04 PM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Jas sweet water:
Self denial is not losing one's individuality. In fact, it
is learning much more about one's self. Do you recall that
before Christ's mission that He went into the wilderness and
for 40 days he DENIED Himself any food or water? WHY oh WHY
would He do such a thing? What for?........
BY denying the BODY, the SPIRIT within us becomes strong!
Denial can be illustrated as follows:
total spirit freedom
etc. \ /fulfillment BUT THEN THE POINT
revelation \ /joy COMES WHERE TOTAL
inspiration \ /happiness FREEDOM IS REALIZED.
TURNING POINT>>> \ /
/ \keep commandments AT FIRST THE MANY
serve / \don't drink COMMANDMENTS MAY
pray / \don't steal SEEM RESTRICTIVE
study / \ work hard OR AS A BURDEN...
The following is true of one who gives in to free will:
bondage to sin
/ \ BUT IT CATCHES UP
pain / \ jail TO YOU AFTER SOME
losses / \ unhappiness TIME IF NOT REPENTED
sickness / \ loneliness FOR...
\ /<<<>
jobs are secure for life. It's like having a king, or other
dictator in charge. What if we were to say we wanted real
change in the church, how would we throw these guys out? I
know... I know... the hand of got takes care of all that.
I agree the format where people are encouraged to talk in
church is an excellent way for people to learn how to talk
in public. I also have had my nerves shot before before a
talk, but it does get easier.
Jas Sweet Water
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/01/92 4:04 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/01 7:31 AM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Jason:
can you give any examples of a better system of church
government where no one has any "power"? I can't imagine
the success of any such system.... Someone's got to be in
charge. Besides, the LDS leadership is not corrupt. They are
doing a good job of things. Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/01/92 5:40 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/01/1992
Grant
I don't think that you really hurt anybody. I'm just not
sure that you'all were on subject. The power issue is very
much on subject though.
The power is NOT spread thin in the church. It is like a
dictatorship. The councils are merely to give BIG DADDY
enough info (disinfo?) in order for HIM to dictate. When HE
makes the final decision, it is indeed final. Councilors
are obliged to carry out HIS instructions. This is what is
meant by the disarming term "delegation".
I feel that there are good alternatives to this hierarchy.
I'm not ready to post any now though.
sorry 'bout that!
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/01/92 5:42 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/01/1992
Jason
Individuation involves a self-indulgent act. As the saying
goes, "Weed your own garden first!" This is why the church
emphasises personal salvation first. Once your own house is
in order, you can tend to the needs of family, church, and
community.
Many Mormons are ready to give all that they are to the
church. This is not because of any requirement made of
them. The Mormon church does not ask this of anyone.
What degree of self-denial is necessary? It's all relative.
The tantrist gets just as far as the acetic in his own way.
(maybe farther) Do whatever makes your temple beautiful!
and ye will
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/03/92 7:11 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/02 8:41 AM
TO: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
FROM: MARSHA STEED (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
How have you been Jason? I think (for myself I might add)
that the self-denial question is that that self-denial must
be SELF induced. It cannot be put upon someone for the sake
of another (for instance losing weight for a 'significant
other') but for one's self. ONLY then is it SELF denial and
not forced denial. Self-denial is the only way that we are
able to be in charge of our ACTIONS and not let others
decide what we will or will not do. This is individuality.
Now, least I be accused of being radical let me go on,
... Self-denial can only be true SELF-denial if the person
is fully informed and UNDERSTANDS what the consequences of
each action is. For example.. my 10 yr old, can not fully
understand the dangers of drug use or the implications to
the physical body of it. Therefore, she must be given
guidelines until that time that she is capable to choose for
herself with an informed choice. The church strongly
advocates MODERATION in all things, Extreams are not the way
of the Lord. When we made a decision on what we will or
will not do, based upon what we believe to be true, we are
individuals. If that decision is in line with what the Lord
has given, it will bring JOY, if not, it may bring pleasure
or fun, but not a deep abiding joy of spirit and purity of
heart. Test this principle Jason, see if it is true.....
---<--@ Marsha
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/03/92 7:11 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/02 10:21 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Mike:
Delegation is the Lord's way of carrying out work. The power
issue is real, and the Doctrine and Covenants addresses this
potential problem. D&C 121:39 reads:
"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature
and disposition of ALMOST ALL men, as soon as they get a
little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately
begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."
"Hence, many are called, but few are chosen."
So Mike, that abuses occur, there is no doubt. But don't
fault the system. Everyone must have their chance to succeed
or fail. That is what this life is for. A proving grounds to
see how we will perform.
The amount of unrighteous dominion that one exercises is in-
directly proportional to their ability to lead in love.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/03/92 7:27 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/03/1992
Grant
Delegation is the way that corporations carry out work. The
Lord works on the individual. Sanctification is not an
assignment made by a commitee. It is the Lord's glory.
Institutions are structurally predisposed to unrighteous
dominion. I'm sorry to be so dogmatic about it. It really
torques me off and I haven't quite worked it out yet.
When are we going to remember that only families are
important to God. That is the implication of Mormonism.
The institution of the church can be veiwed as a necessary
evil. No one would hear about Mormon realities without it.
The Church is not a goal. It is a means of obtaining a
goal. It should be exploited for what it has to offer.
Zion is the family of God. proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/03/92 7:29 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/02 10:21 PM
TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Grant.... An interesting case of the people taking control
of their church seems to be going on in Japan right now, you
may have read about it. The priesthood and laity of Japan's
Nichieren Shoshu Buddist sect are working to take control,
it's called the Soka Gakkai lay movement. The high priests
are now fighting for their life. They've tryed to use
excommunication, and the Soka Gakkai has encouraged open>>
rebellion against the Buddist priests. This is a very
important because the Soka Gakkai control a significant vote
in the Japanese upper house. The Soka Gakkai has a
membership of over 10 million, and is considered to be one
of the fastest growing religions in North America.
Once the New Age Mormons take hold we will probably be to
the Mormons what the Soka Gakkai is to the Buddhists.
Jas Sweet Water
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/03/92 7:30 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/02 10:21 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: JASON ROCCO (JBGD79B)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Proclus...
What does....
"The tantrist gets just as far as the acetic in his own
way."
mean.....
I must say there's a couple words in there this country
boy just don't know..... Jas Sweet Water.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/03/92 7:34 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JBGD79B
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/03/1992
Jason
The tantrist seeks God through sensory overload. The acetic
seeks God through sensory deprivation. Which one do you
think has more fun?
fused
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/06/92 7:25 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/04 8:41 PM
TO: ALL
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Mike:
The best example I can think of which supports the truth
that God the Father delegates, is the way He delegated all
of the responsibility for this earth to His Son Jesus
Christ. The bible and other scriptures teach that Jesus
Christ made this world. If this isn't delegation, then I
can't think of what is.
Grant
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/06/92 7:28 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/06/1992
Exactly Grant!
Jesus isn't the Vice President of Lord Inc.! He is God's
Only Begotten Son. It's a family thing.
defused
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/16/92 1:17 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/12 10:47 PM
TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Right you are!! BUT, the LDS church would vehemently deny
a New Age connection. In fact the New Age was denounced
recently in the church's official magazine, The Ensign.
It all depends on who is defining "New Age."
For example, Dave Hunt in Godmakers, does not define
Mormonism as Naw Age, but he does say: "Mormons who become
disillusioned with their Church are particularly susceptible
to Naw Age delusions."
Hmmm. I wonder if he is talking about me......
\/ Andrew
/\
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/16/92 1:18 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/13 9:39 AM
TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
I don't know Andrew. Are you disillusioned?
let's talk
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/16/92 1:19 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/13 9:46 PM
TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Me? Disillusioned?
Well, its like this. I am just disillusioned enough to have
earned E-mail toungue-lashings from (insert names of the
three most dogmatic Mormons currently on this board). But I
am also an "equal opportunity doubter." That is a nice way
of saying that the God that you believe in does not ring
my chimes either....Which is not meant to offend. I respect
you, understand your beliefs, and see the merit in them.
Ditto Mormonism, sort of.
Allow me to quote Al Crowley. "I was reluctant to abandon
my intellectual belief in Christianity; if the whole thing
was nonsense, where was the fun of fighting it?"
Insert the word Mormonism, and mellow the mood (I'm not
fighting Mormonism, just wondering why it doesn't live up to
its promise) and you see where I sit. Andrew
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/16/92 1:35 AM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: JVFK79A
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/16/1992
Marsh
I knew you weren't a mormo-lizard with the sharp and
flicking tongue! I'd like to emphasise that something that
St. Andrew said. Mormonism isn't living up to ....what?
Disillusionment reflects a disappointment or chronic
impatience with the state of things. The fact is that
Mormonism is not living up to all that it promises and some
of us are getting really tired of waiting for it to happen.
Why is the church cow-towing to popular Xtianity? Where is
the New Jerusalem, the temple? Is the family of God
invisible to the corporate church? Where is Adam? Can a
council of men really replace him?
annoint NOW!
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 4:43 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/19 7:31 PM
TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Yup, Uncle Al was every bit the unsaved cad that you make
him out to be. Most likely the result of having been raised
in a VERY strictly Xtian home.
Crowley was a member of the Golden Dawn, a Rosicrucian type
order. He was 33rd degree Mason. He founded (I think) the
Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO). And, while The Beast was wise
enough not to write about it openly, he developed (or
re-developed, from Tantra, the rites of the Templars, etc.)
a method of spiritual attainment that centers around Sex
Magick.
Ooooh. Nasty.
But he was a very nice guy, otherwise. And even if I don't
agree with all of his thoughts and methods, the guy is a
real hoot to read. He has a one-of-a-kind sense of humor,
and I am immensely enjoying his autobiography. X andy
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 4:46 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/16 4:14 PM
TO: MARSHA STEED (JVFK79A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Marsh
I knew you weren't a mormo-lizard with the sharp and
flicking tongue! I'd like to emphasise that something that
St. Andrew said. Mormonism isn't living up to ....what?
Disillusionment reflects a disappointment or chronic
impatience with the state of things. The fact is that
Mormonism is not living up to all that it promises and some
of us are getting really tired of waiting for it to happen.
Why is the church cow-towing to popular Xtianity? Where is
the New Jerusalem, the temple? Is the family of God
invisible to the corporate church? Where is Adam? Can a
council of men really replace him?
annoint NOW!
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 4:46 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/16 4:14 PM
TO: MARSHA STEED (JVFK79A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Marsh
I knew you weren't a mormo-lizard with the sharp and
flicking tongue! I'd like to emphasise that something that
St. Andrew said. Mormonism isn't living up to ....what?
Disillusionment reflects a disappointment or chronic
impatience with the state of things. The fact is that
Mormonism is not living up to all that it promises and some
of us are getting really tired of waiting for it to happen.
Why is the church cow-towing to popular Xtianity? Where is
the New Jerusalem, the temple? Is the family of God
invisible to the corporate church? Where is Adam? Can a
council of men really replace him?
annoint NOW!
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 4:49 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/19 7:31 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Yes, Proclus. Well said. But there is more to it than
that.
To a more basic level. Why is the Spirit of God gone from
our meetings? Why does the church frown on us if we propose
to meet in small groups to study and/or pray among
ourselves? Why does the Church place so many of its eggs in
the basket labeled "Strict Obedience," and so few in the one
labeled "Individual Spiritual Growth and Attainment?" Why
are the people who make up the church afraid to face each
other in some intimate setting and share the love of God
between themselves? Why the facades?
Instead of griping about the boys in Salt Lake, maybe we
should build the Family of God in our own wards and stakes,
make the changes there first, and then march on the Church
Office Buildings (I get to blow the doors off THE VAULT!).
>>>>>>
About now, I have the Mormo-Lizards offended. Good. I wish
to point out a fault. When someone such as myself gripes
and groans, the common reaction is an E-mail note informing
me of what a no good **** I am, and hautily saying,
"Besides. I bet you are innactive." Read section 121 of
the D&C, you yahoos. Start at about verse 33. THEN write
to me.
And to a certain Non-lizard sister: You have given me much
to think about. You have been a blessing to me. More to ya
later. BTW, that scoutmaster was my dad. >>>>>>
And now, a Hymn (to the tune of Sweet is the Work, My God,
My King):
Sweet are my doubts, my God, my King.
I love to question everything.
I challenge thee by morning light
And fondle all my qualms by night.
Sweet is the pain I've come to know.
So long as I can let it show.
For all my grief I give thee thanks
And for my existential angst. >>
My heart shall triumph in my doubt.
I only pray I won't find out
The truth of all that thou hast said
(That is, at least, until I'm dead).
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 4:50 PM
From MUSIC AND THE BROKEN WORD (Songs for Alternate Voices),
Paul Toscano, Signature Books, 1991.
\/ St Andrew, asleep in
/\ the Tenor section.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 4:53 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 04/17 10:37 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: MARSHA STEED (JVFK79A)
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
Hi proclus, read James 5:11, Matt 10:22 1 Cor 13:7 and Heb
6:15. Perhaps the sifting of the sheep and the goats must
come before anything real can happen? I'm grateful I'm not
thought of as a white salamander....
Andrew has some valid points and some wonderful insights
into the meaning of the kingdom of God. I emphasize with
you truely, and patience never was one of my better traits,
but things will happen in the Lord's time, not ours.
---<--@ Marsha
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 8:48 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: ALL
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/20/1992
I'm reading Virgil's AENEID. It is essentially a collection
of faith promoting stories for Romans. If Quinn had lived
in Rome they would have beheaded him. Imagine him, asking
for increased objectivity in historical reporting! Don't
get me wrong though. I really like Virgil and find his
writings to be inspired. Ckeck this out:
"Helenus cut down bullucks at his alter
With ceremony, begged the gods for peace,
Unbound the sacred ribbons from his head,
And took me by the hand, leading me in
A-tingle at the overshadowing power-
O Phoebus! in thy shrine;
Then with oracular voice the priest addressed me:
'Born of the goddess, highest auspices
Are clearly seen for thy seafaring.'"
The god is Apollo. The blessed is Aeneas, the founder of
the lineage of roman rulers. The goddess is Aphrodite
(Venus). There is also Helenus, the heir of the Trojan
kingship, and the priest of Phoebus Apollo. All of this
makes Rome look very good. I don't think that that detracts
from it though. The problem is that if ANNEID was the only
thing that you ever read about the Romans, you would think
that they can do no wrong. Every scripture that I ever read
tells me that faith is compatable with honesty. Why are the
church archives sealed? What are they trying to hide...et
tu Brute? What is in Caesar's vault?
Dido's proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/20/92 9:05 PM
ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: ALL
SUBJECT: MORMON NEW AGE
DATE: 04/20/1992
I'm reading Virgil's AENEID. It is essentially a collection
of faith promoting stories for Romans. If Quinn had lived
in Rome they would have beheaded him. Imagine him, asking
for increased objectivity in historical reporting! Don't
get me wrong though. I really like Virgil and find his
writings to be inspired. Ckeck this out:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Helenus cut down bullucks at his alter
With ceremony, begged the gods for peace,
Unbound the sacred ribbons from his head,
And took me by the hand, leading me in
A-tingle at the overshadowing power-
O Phoebus! in thy shrine;
Then with oracular voice the priest addressed me:
'Born of the goddess, highest auspices
Are clearly seen for thy seafaring.'"
The god is Apollo. The blessed is Aeneas, the founder of
the lineage of roman rulers. The goddess is Aphrodite
(Venus). There is also Helenus, the heir of the Trojan
kingship, and the priest of Phoebus Apollo. All of this
makes Rome look very good. I don't think that that detracts
from it though. The problem is that if ANNEID was the only
thing that you ever read about the Romans, you would think
that they can do no wrong. Every scripture that I ever read
tells me that faith is compatable with honesty. Why are the
church archives sealed? What are they trying to hide...et
tu Brute? What is in Caesar's vault?
Dido's proclus ps>>>>>>>>>>>
I tend to agree with Allen that the most quoted Mormon
sources for the temple endowment are essentially useless.
There are exceptions. Does anyone know that Brigham Young
quote about passing the angels that stand as sentries?
Should a temple Mormon feel badly about discussing earlier
versions of the endowment about which he personally has
sworn no oath?
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