Orthodox
========
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/26/93 5:21 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 04/26 5:10 PM
TO: ALL
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
What do you all think of Elder Maxwell's recent adoption of
the word "orthodox"? Is he saying something new? Is it the
wrong word? How orthodox is Mormonism anyway? Most of you
have heard my opinion, but I want to hear yours.
ears open
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 10:21 AM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: CTGV57A
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 04/27/1993
Ken
I do not believe I am reincarnated. What you probably
remember is my statement that past life experiences are
probably real phenomena with multiple alternative
explanations, consistent with Mormon doctrine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The temple endowment can be view as a kind of hidden
Christianity. In that sense I am practicing an esoteric
tradition.
Furthermore, I did not miss the implication of your note
that I am not a Mormon. Am I on trial here? Why didn't you
respond to my question concerning Elder Maxwell's
statements? I am sincerely interested in your opinion of
his use of the word "orthodoxy".
merely
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 10:21 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 04/27 10:28 AM
TO: KENNETH WOZNY (CTGV57A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Ken
I do not believe I am reincarnated. What you probably
remember is my statement that past life experiences are
probably real phenomena with multiple alternative
explanations, consistent with Mormon doctrine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The temple endowment can be view as a kind of hidden
Christianity. In that sense I am practicing an esoteric
tradition.
Furthermore, I did not miss the implication of your note
that I am not a Mormon. Am I on trial here? Why didn't you
respond to my question concerning Elder Maxwell's
statements? I am sincerely interested in your opinion of
his use of the word "orthodoxy".
merely
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 10:22 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 04/27 11:36 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: KENNETH WOZNY (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Mike, GOOD, you have clarified thyself! I may have confused
you with another Mike (but not Mr. Garrett as I have all of
his stuff). WITH THAT, I SINCERELY & HUMBLY APOLOGIZE! In
a way, what you said is in NO conflict with MY views. My
biggest concern was re-incarnation, which is being ANOTHER
person in BODY form in a PAST life! Pre-existence is NOT
re-incarnation as we are only ONE person and have never had
a body before.
Maxwell probably means "orthodox" LDS theology is that NOT
from the "fringe" groups.
Ken (LDS)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/29/93 5:35 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 04/29 1:18 AM
TO: KENNETH WOZNY (CTGV57A)
FROM: KERRY SHIRTS (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
If you hold the Priiesthood and use it, then you're
practicing magick Ken. I had an Elder's Quorum Pres. tell me
long ago that Priesthood was magic, and at the time I didn't
understand why he said that. Many years later and hundreds
of books later, I think I have a better idea. The power of
God is pure magick.
Kerry A. Shirts
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/29/93 5:35 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 04/29 3:49 PM
TO: KERRY SHIRTS (CWXH30A)
FROM: KENNETH WOZNY (CTGV57A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
May the "force" be with us!
Ken (LDS, practicing God's "magick"?)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/29/93 5:37 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 04/29 4:40 PM
TO: KERRY SHIRTS (CWXH30A)
FROM: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Kerry,
We took our children to see a performance of David
Copperfield two weeks ago. His magic really impressed the
kids. We grown-ups were all the more impressed as we
realised the logistical implications of pulling off such
elaborate illusions. Magic is, after all, only a form of
deception. Jacqueline (tongue-in-cheek)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/30/93 9:40 AM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 04/30 1:07 AM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Mike:
Want to know MY opinion of Elder Maxwell's use of the
term 'orthodoxy'?
#$%@ %$#@ %!#@ $#*! *&$% $@!% ...
Kim \ wishing not to get my note pulled by the Prodigods :)
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:08 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: BRPG31B
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/01/1993
Kim
I have to admit that I had a similar reaction of outrage and
confusion when I first read it. Then, I remembered how
careful and caring Elder Maxwell can be. He has really
helped people in some dire straits. I decided that I needed
to think about it more deeply so I posted thei subject,
almost as an afterthought to the other Mormo{Subjects. I
hope to get some more responses from people. What I've seen
so far is pretty darned thought provoking, don't you think?
heretic
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:10 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: CTGV57A
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/01/1993
Ken
I don't think that Elder Maxwell is speaking of such limited
concept of orthodoxy. He reminds us, for example, that the
term is not well thought of in the world. He seems to be
implying a more generic use of the word. The word obedience
has a similar generic sense in the Church. We feel that it
is something that applies to all people and in a wide
variety of circumstances.
I think it is interesting that this kind of language could
not have been used prior to the change in the temple rite in
1990. Prior to that "the orthodox religion" was only taught
by the devil and his ministers. Think back and you will
remember this. It is Mormonism itself that has always been
a "fringe group", en mass. I am not saying Elder Maxwell is
wrong. He has always been one of my favorites, even before
they made him and apostle. I am just a little confused by
his use of this important word. Maybe he should back off
from it a little.
Where are we going?
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:12 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: RDCW86A
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/01/1993
John
What a perfect biblical reference for our subject! As is
John's habit, he is appealing to people through the
knowledge that they gained in other religious traditions, in
this case, the egyptian mystery religions. Nibley informs
us that after the initiate was washed in carbonate water and
annointed, he was given the name, stone of truth. The
earliest egyptian graves contained white stones. Adam, we
are told in the Coptic texts, is the shining man. "The
stone which is identified with him is the diamond, 'the
shining stone'." From the Mormon scriptures, we know well
the identity of this stone. It is the Urim and Thummim.
Obviously, this is a very large subject. Most germane to
our discussion is the fact that Joseph described this
artifact in a very physical way, like some kind of device.
The hidden manna refers of course to the subject at hand,
initiation, the temple endowment. The reason that all of
this seems so foreign to many members is that it is simply
not discussed in Sunday School. It has nothing to do with
Xtianity.
clean feet
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:14 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: WWKF55B
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/01/1993
Jacqueline
Are you aware that the spelling, magick not magic, is
significant. Magic is a side show act, like Copperfeild's
performance. It is a form of deception. The definition of
magick is taken from Crowley, who revolutionized the whole
field. In MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE he states, "Magick
is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in
conformity to the Will." This is the sense in which the
operations of Mormonism are like magick. In other words,
every time I make something happen, it is an act of magick.
It is not a vaud-ville deception. Indeed, the operator
requires great clarity and understanding to practice magick
in it's fulness.
magickian
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 8:55 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: WWKF55B
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/01/1993
j YES! p
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 9:35 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/01 6:42 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Proclus,
Are you saying that magick is mind over matter in action? If
so, I do that all the time!
Jacqueline
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 9:35 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/01 9:00 PM
TO: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
j YES! p
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/02/93 6:33 AM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: BRPG31B
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/02/1993
Kim
Sadly, have to agree about his latest addresses, ever since
the "intellectual bungee cords" statements.
WWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE..OOOOOoh
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/02/93 6:35 AM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: CTGV57A
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/02/1993
Ken
That might be interesting. I wonder if we would find that
he used the word orthodox in a very different sense in his
earlier years.
hoping
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/03/93 8:29 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/02 12:05 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: DAEVID EASTMAN (DXKX48E)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Perhaps he's talking about those who are trying to follow
the churches teachings and not the people on the fringes
that claim to be LDS, but aren't in accordance with those
teachings (ie. Polygamists, Gadianton Robbers, and those
involved in Groups that delve into Secret Combinations)
Daev
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/04/93 10:46 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/04 9:46 PM
TO: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Jacqueline,
We all do Magick, all of the time.
The trick is to recognize the fact, control the magick,
and direct it according your Will {capital W).
\/ andy
/\
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/04/93 10:47 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/04 10:04 PM
TO: ALL
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
"Orthodox adj conforming to established doctrine."
"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now
reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great
and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."
"Reveal vb 1:To make known: DIVULGE 2:to show plainly: open
up to view: DISCLOSE."
Mormonism, as defined by Joseph Smith, is not orthodox.
To become orthodox is to cease to receive new light and
knowledge from God.
Compare the rate at which knowledge was revealed through
Joseph Smith {BOM, D&C, PoGP, etc, etc in 20 years} to the
rate that knowledge has come to us since {the largely
ignored teachings of B.Young, the Manifesto, the 1978
revelation on blacks, all in 150 yrs}.
There is an orthodox faction in Mormonism. This faction
is dead in the water. They are also operating out of the
church office building.
There is a non-orthodox faction in Mormonism. They
operate out of Signature Books, Sunstone, Prodigy, etc.
If Joseph Smith came back to visit us, which faction
would listen to any new things that he had to teach?
\/ andy
/\
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/04/93 11:30 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/04 9:46 PM
TO: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Jacqueline,
We all do Magick, all of the time.
The trick is to recognize the fact, control the magick,
and direct it according your Will {capital W).
\/ andy
/\
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/04/93 11:31 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/04 10:04 PM
TO: ALL
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
"Orthodox adj conforming to established doctrine."
"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now
reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great
and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."
"Reveal vb 1:To make known: DIVULGE 2:to show plainly: open
up to view: DISCLOSE."
Mormonism, as defined by Joseph Smith, is not orthodox.
To become orthodox is to cease to receive new light and
knowledge from God.
Compare the rate at which knowledge was revealed through
Joseph Smith {BOM, D&C, PoGP, etc, etc in 20 years} to the
rate that knowledge has come to us since {the largely
ignored teachings of B.Young, the Manifesto, the 1978
revelation on blacks, all in 150 yrs}.
There is an orthodox faction in Mormonism. This faction
is dead in the water. They are also operating out of the
church office building.
There is a non-orthodox faction in Mormonism. They
operate out of Signature Books, Sunstone, Prodigy, etc.
If Joseph Smith came back to visit us, which faction
would listen to any new things that he had to teach?
\/ andy
/\
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/05/93 10:08 AM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: FKSP88A
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/05/1993
Andy
"Orthodox adj conforming to established doctrine."
This is why so many of us are puzzled by these statements by
Elder Maxwell. Mormonism has NEVER been an orthodox
religion.
>>>>>>>>>>
Mormoms beleive God;
1 Is a man
2 Has a body
3 Is married to the Goddess
4 Lives on a planet near a star called Kolob
Mormons believe Jesus
1 Paid for our sins in Gethsemame, NOT on the cross
2 Was conceived through normal physical intercourse
3 Came to a America after a bodily ressurection
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mormons beleive we
1 Are the literal spriritual offspring of God
2 Lived before we were born
3 Can attain Godhood
Mormons beleive the Xtianity
1 Is a false religion
2 Apostatized around 300AD
There is not a person on this earth that would call these
orthodox teachings. At least, there WAS not, until Elder
Maxwell started making these interesting remarks last fall.
Joseph broke with the mainstream. He turned away from the
accepted doctrines of his time. He got a revelation of new
truth and went in a new direction, which was opposed to the
well established doctrines and practice. In other words,
the founder of our religion was a HERETIC, not orthodox.
me too
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/07/93 8:32 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/05 10:20 AM
TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Andy
"Orthodox adj conforming to established doctrine."
This is why so many of us are puzzled by these statements by
Elder Maxwell. Mormonism has NEVER been an orthodox
religion.
>>>>>>>>>>
Mormoms beleive God;
1 Is a man
2 Has a body
3 Is married to the Goddess
4 Lives on a planet near a star called Kolob
Mormons believe Jesus
1 Paid for our sins in Gethsemame, NOT on the cross
2 Was conceived through normal physical intercourse
3 Came to a America after a bodily ressurection
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mormons beleive we
1 Are the literal spriritual offspring of God
2 Lived before we were born
3 Can attain Godhood
Mormons beleive the Xtianity
1 Is a false religion
2 Apostatized around 300AD
There is not a person on this earth that would call these
orthodox teachings. At least, there WAS not, until Elder
Maxwell started making these interesting remarks last fall.
Joseph broke with the mainstream. He turned away from the
accepted doctrines of his time. He got a revelation of new
truth and went in a new direction, which was opposed to the
well established doctrines and practice. In other words,
the founder of our religion was a HERETIC, not orthodox.
me too
proclus
Andy, thanx for the reminder!
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/07/93 8:33 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/05 11:55 AM
TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Hi, Andy!
Long time no see! I didn't know you were interested in this
stuff!
Jacqueline
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/07/93 8:33 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/05 10:49 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Mike,
True, Mormonism has never been orthodox when compared to
Xtianity. But where are we headed?
In the quest for more revealed knowledge, our leaders
seem to have cried "Enough!" In the quest for conversions
our leaders seem to be crying "We are Xtian, just like the
other Xtians!" And what has become of some of the doctrines
that are the least orthodox in our church? They are talked
about in hushed tones, sometimes even denied or explained
away.
Joseph Smith was a theological explorer. He took quite a
bit of heat for this. Where are the theological explorers
today? Are they taking heat? If so, from what quarter?
\/ andy,
/\ sunstoner
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/07/93 8:34 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/07 8:09 PM
TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Andy
"Where are the theological explorers today? Are they taking
heat? If so, from what quarter?" Are these rhetorical
questions? Of Course!
I didn't read Elder Maxwell's talk yet, but I have read
Elder Packer's talk, "The Temple and the Priesthood". I
really enjoyed his wonderful insights into "the invisible
temple that is within all temples". His comments on the
Nauvoo period, the wicked spirit of persecution, family
and temple, and the role of women in the construction of the
Salt Lake Temple were quite interesting.
Unfortunately, all of this was marred by his unnecessarily
confrontational response to Micheal Quinn and the rest of us
on the subject of the priesthood of the Lord's House. He
gave such a dogmatic and unfounded response that only one
who dogmatically follows orthodox leaders could possibly
credit it in any way. For example, he quotes the fifth
Article of Faith, "We beleive that a man must be called of
God, by prophesy, and by the laying on of hands by those who
are in authority...". Notice that this is a pseudo-response
since the verse does NOT say that WOMEN must be ordained in
order to receive the priesthood!
He then quotes our favorite section, D&C 121. I will not
even give a quote, because I am so disgusted that this
section would be used in this manner. It is the petition
to the Lord by Joseph against those who were persecuting the
Church. Why was the Church being perscuted? (rhetorical)
Of course, it was for their heterodox practices and beliefs.
He follows up with a lovely quote from the Salt Lake Temple
dedication which has been twisted into a thinly veiled
character assasination. The upshot is that if you don't
agree with his remarks, you must be a sinner. If the quote
from 121 is significant, he means the worst kind of sinner.
It is now becoming apparent who the persecutors are in our
generation, and who the explorers are.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/07/93 8:34 PM
safety in the center
proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/08/93 10:57 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TO: FKSP88A
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
DATE: 05/08/1993
Here is an old post from Andy that I thought was appropriate
in this connection;
As illustrated by Sam Taylor's article in the last issue
of SUNSTONE {Joseph Smith Visits the Redwood City Ward},
Mormonism circa 1992 is vastly different from the religion
that was forged under the hands of Joseph Smith. The
current catch-phase is "conformity and respectability."
To this end, the prayer circle has been limited to the
temple. The temple ceremony itself has been altered to make
it more {blech, yuk} politically correct. Independent
forums on Mormon theology and history are attacked from the
pulpit of the SLC tabernacle. Study groups are frowned
upon.
There is a manual or pre-prepared outline for everything.
Sunday school lessons, priesthood lessons, home teaching
messages, family home evening activities, etc. And are
these manuals considered to be optional helps and resources?
No. Their use is mandated.
Any thought or idea that has not been laundered by the
correlation committee is verboten.
And yet, in spite of the heavy hand of the Brethren in
the 'Great and Spacious Building' in Salt Lake City, the
church and its members thrive. Why? Because tendencies to
originality and rightious rebellion are just too deeply
ingrained in the Mormon psyche. Thank God. Thank Goddess,
for that matter.
Saints still speak and write of the forbidden. Small
groups still gather to study, argue, pray and agitate.
Subscriptions to SUNSTONE and DIALOGUE are on the rise.
What defines paganism: A certain set of beliefs, or a
certain attitude? I vote attitude. And what is that
attitude? Independence. Free thought. Questioning.
Agitation. Change. Improvement.
The pagans are alive and well in the Mormon church, and
they are moving forward, armed with some of the strongest
testimonies and purest motives that can be found in any
religion today.
Let's agitate, proclus. \/ St Andrew,
/\ Blessed Be
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/08/93 10:58 PM
RELIGION
TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS
TIME: 05/08 12:44 PM
TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORMO{ORTHODOX??????
Mike,
"Safety of the center."
Doesn't it have a nice cozy ring to it? Don't we all
long to be safe? Warm? Potected? Mediocre? Lukewarm?
Ah yes. Speaking of lukewarm, have you noticed that hot
and cold are thrown in the same category by the savior, in
spite of their opposite natures? It is only lukewarm, the
cozy middle of the spectrum, that is condemned.
"Hold your fire--
Keep it burning bright
Hold the flame \/ andy
'Til the dream ignites." /\
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