Mormon Thought Police

Morm{Thought Police1
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:40 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/22 8:02 AM

TO: ALL
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Now that I have managed to get your attention, boys and
girls......
As is their habit, those awful "SUNSTONE" people had
their August heresy-fest in Salt Lake City a few weeks back.
And once again they managed to raise a few hackles at the
Church office building. But what else is new? And what is
the hot topic for this summer? SECRET FILES.........>>>>>>>
Yes, it seems that one of the "stoners" raised the
subject of secret files that the Mormon church keeps on
members of its intellectual community. A file is opened on
a person when he or she publishes an article or book that
does not toe the Party Line, or when they publish with a
controversial group (Sunstone, Signature, Dialogue,
Exponent, etc).
And did the Church just let this accusation slide? No.
In a statement from the First Presidency, the keeping of
these files was not denied or confirmed, but a section of
LDS scripture was cited that tends to confirm that the
Mormon Gestapo is indeed keeping dossiers on potential
trouble-makers. Crack open your D&C to section 123 and read
the first 5 verses.
It seems that Russell M. Nelson and James E. Faust, both
of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, comprise the
"Strengthening Church Members Committee" which is in charge
of this activity.

Does this sound like fun, or what? Check out the DESERET
NEWS, August 14, pages B1 & B2 for more info, and a copy of
the First Presidency statement. >>>>>>
The next question, boys and girls, is this: Does the
Mormon Church moniter computer services like Prodigy? Do
they download posts like this one? Does the Strengthening
Church Members Committee have a file on St Andrew, the
dogmaphobe? On Proclus? On Bonnie W., Melissa Wonderbar,
Marie the ex-Mormon, etc, etc, etc?

You can bet your 2400 baud bootie that they do!!!!

And I don't like it........ \/ Andrew,
/\ torqued off.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:46 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/22 1:40 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Ver-r-r-r-y interesting. And check out the current issue of
SUNSTONE magazine (16:1, dated Feb. 1992, but it just turned
up in my mailbox yesterday: I think they're getting a li'l
behind!). An interesting article by Michael Quinn on "Truth
and Consequences" of Mormon History (the church has a
history of attacking the messenger, rather than the
message), plus a lengthy discussion on academic freedom
at BYU, especially as it relates to last year's "Sunstone
Conference". There's quite a pot of worms simmering here,
and I suspect it's likely to boil over before too long (in
the form of Newsweek articles, etc...)

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:47 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/23 8:31 AM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: RALPH BRANDT (TWFT57B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

I hope they do monitor it and I hope they harass someone --
it will prove what I have said is true!!!

Come on guys, keep my ID. If they try to get to you,
contact me by private message.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:48 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/23 9:53 AM

TO: MELISSA GATES (DWRH70C)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Melissa,
I had to laugh. The February SUNSTONE hitting tha mail
in August. Make sure you meet the July 31 deadline for
renewing your subscription at the old rate!!!! {page 68}
Haven't read Quinn's article yet, but I will. Another
thing about the Sunstone presentation: The person who was
talking about those secret files alledges that the church
had, in a few cases, actually used them to intimidate
people. So much for the kind and gentle gospel of peace.

\/ Andrew,
/\ monitered.

PS Did you read the Roberts and Sharp article on page 58?
For the last week I have been kicking myself every time I
hear myself say "You bet." I am in pain.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:51 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/23 4:18 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: C MARSTON (JR) (KXBN51A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Andrew,
I know of very few, if any, organization that does not
take note, either formally or informally, of members or
those who profess to sustain the "party line" who, at the
same time, appear to work against what they have sustained.
Some do it in what they see as an enlightened move to
correct the organization. But Catholocism took notice of
Luther, the people of LA took notice of Bro. Gates, When I
worked in radio my station manager took notice when I
promoted another station's activities. A spouse takes notice
when the other breaks the vows they have sustained.
Hospitals take notice when doctors fail to meet standards
they have agreed to sustain. On and on and on.
I think it is an insignificant point that has been
magnified way beyond its proper value.

Charlie
Ogden, Ut 08/23/92 00:25

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:52 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/23 5:01 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: MELISSA WUNDERLY (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Officer McGuire; My, you do keep things interesting here. As
a trickle down victim of McCarthyism, the thought had
crossed my mind of a Nixonesque type spy ring. After all
McKay did embrace the guy once...anyway, just to secure my
spot in history...I hate that Utah-Mormon-Relief-Society
baby-talk dialect. Thank goodness for Sister Jack, a woman
that I can listen to WHAT she says instead of HOW she says
it. Where do people learn to talk that way? Do they keep the
same teachers from Pre-school to 12th grade in Utah? If you
don't know what I'm talking about current Utah residents,
give yourself a few days...that baby-talk is everywhere.

Melissa, romper room drop-out

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:54 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/23 6:22 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

St. Andrew, does Michael Lancaster work for the Thought
Police? Just wondering. If so, I'm in the jam,too!! .

sticky but sweet,
Steph

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:54 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/24 11:07 AM

TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: SANDRA WATSON (RSPN32A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

This will probably sound totally paranoid to all of you,
but, since you brought up this whole record keeping thing in
Mormon offices, I'll tell you my concern.
I work in a library and the computer system we have is
headquartered in Provo. This system contains ALL of our re-
cords as well as all of our patron's records--personal stuff
along with what they have checked out of the library.>>>
And the system can be accessed from Provo. (I know because
they troubleshoot from there.)
Part Two : For years, the FBI has tried to convince lib-
rarians to allow them access to their records, asked them to
report anything and anyone who seemed "odd". And, libra-
rians have universally told them to hit the road.
Part Three : I read something somewhere not too long ago
that mentioned the high proportion of new FBI agents that
were Mormon!
Paranoid Conclusion : The FBI may now be able to get the
records they want from libraries by accessing the records>>
stored in library computer systems without having to be dis-
missed perfunctorily by ungracious librarians! I know other
library computer systems are headquartered in other parts of
the country, but this just raised some questions in my mind
about our own system and other libraries' records that have
the same system. Get it in enough libraries, and you don't
have to ask anyone for ANYTHING!
Or, should I see a shrink???
-=S=-

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:58 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/24 4:07 PM

TO: SANDRA WATSON (RSPN32A)
FROM: CORBIN SINCLAIR (SCKW03C)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

WOW, THIS IS WILD. I SAW SOMETHING IN THE NEW YORK TIMES
THE OTHER DAY ABOUT SECRET MORMON FILES. WHY DO THEY NEED
TO SPY ON THEIR OWN MEMBERS? IT SOUNDS PRETTY CREEPY TO ME!

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:58 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/24 7:38 PM

TO: SANDRA WATSON (RSPN32A)
FROM: BLAZE CHALLENGE HM (FHXR96C)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Eeek. Nevr check out a book again. Good thing I didn't
check out the Mormon Murders.. as for being paranoid,
paranoia is the 20th century survival skill. The question
is, can we be paranoid enough?

Blaze

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 1:59 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/24 8:05 PM

TO: C MARSTON (JR) (KXBN51A)
FROM: BLAZE CHALLENGE HM (FHXR96C)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Hey. Gates was a man in power abusing his position. In
fact, one of the charges leveled against him was that he had
a unit of Police investigating people he didn't like and
keeping dossiers on them. Sound familiar? And if any of
you Mormon Anti-Whatever Committee types are reading this,
tell Kim in Santa Cruz Ward I said "hi".
Blaze

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 2:02 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/25 7:30 AM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: GEORGE RASMUSSEN (FJNN78A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

..Gotta do it! ..Here's another two cents worth, Andrew...
This whole thing of Mormon's spying on Mormons is something
that has been going on from the beginning -- O.K., maybe
even from the 'big-inning'! ..Think about it. Joseph Smith
had his "Thought Police" in the Danites - and they policed
more than just thoughts come to think about it! ..Brigham
Young used Porter Rockwell and his boys to police thoughts
and everything else for that matter in Deseret! ..Now that
we have come into the information age by way of the micro-
processor and the PC, the whole process gets kind of hairy
to say the least! ..What will the next decade bring? ..Stick
around and see, boys and girls,..stick around and see!
Ten years ago when I and my family came away from Mormonism
we encountered - on a close up and personal basis - the
workings of the committee headed by Mark E.Peterson, whose
function it was to keep tabs on people such as ourselves and
make sure that we were painted in the worst possible light
as we came away from the LDS religion. Only by circumstances
which we could not have foreseen did we happen to learn of
the work of Peterson's committee and its direct focus at
that time through functionaries in Arizona on me and my
family. ..We were then still honestly and objectively and
sincerely seeking answers to questions we felt sure the LDS
church - our church - should and could answer. But by a slip
of the tongue in speaking to a 'friend' one day about the
concerns we had, this 'friend' revealed that he was part of
this obscure committee's task force in Arizona - and then he
realized he had 'spilled the beans' and since that day has
avoided speaking with me or being seen with me! ..Much more
to tell here,..but not now! ..Heck, with computers and
modems and fax machines they don't need task force field
people in the same sort of roles they once had them in..!
1984 has come and gone,..but has it - really?!

..Jesus is Lord!

..+George

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 2:06 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/25 2:14 PM

TO: SANDRA WATSON (RSPN32A)
FROM: GALE WILSON (RVPC52D)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Sandra, You think YOU ARE paranoid!! Since my husband and
I started throwing our 2 cents in here occasionaly on the
mormon boards we have had mormons on our doorstep FOUR times
[they never visit anyone else in our neighborhood].Hmmmm...
When I reserved Mormon Corporate Empire and The Darker Side
of Virtue thru my county computerized library system, many
of the copies were listed as "missing" or "stolen". >>>>
Is there anyway at all that library patrons can block the
FBI [or anyone else ] from snooping on their personal
library record? I also had two mormon girls follow along
side me in their car while I was jogging last summer. They
were trying to hand me a cassete tape for my Walkmen and
when I refused it they turned their car around and left.
They made no attempt to hand out their tape to the many
others who were walking their dogs, biking,etc. on my road.
So my answer to you would be no; I don't think you are being
paranoid at all and I tend to support what Andrew is saying.
St. Andrew: I bet their adding on a room for your notes.VBG

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 2:08 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/25 2:27 PM

TO: C MARSTON (JR) (KXBN51A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Charlie,
Yes, the church should keep tabs on people, articles,
books, activities, etc, etc. But there are two words in the
DESERET NEWS article that set me off.

SECRET, and INTIMIDATE.
If the church has a file on anyone, and I have no beef
with keeping files on the doings of people who choose to
thrust themselves into the public eye, those files should be
open. If not to the whole world, the files should at least
be open to the person whose name is on the folder.
It is alledged that files have been used to intimidate
people. This is a sticky area. Who defines what is
intimidation and what is well intended counsel or
correction? It should be looked into though. Let the
church tell its side of the story in answer to specific
complaints, and not try to settle the question with vague
blanket statements. X andrew

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 2:11 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/25 7:40 PM

TO: GEORGE RASMUSSEN (FJNN78A)
FROM: BLAZE CHALLENGE HM (FHXR96C)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.

It's 1992. Elder Big Brother is watching you....
Wow. How have you been doing recently, have you been having
any problems with them? The reason I ask is that my fiancee
is Mormon, I talked with the missionaries and I was ready to
join...until Caution stepped in and warned me to do a little
reading of my own...and after reading the Mormon Murders I
am getting nervous. She doesn't seem that involved in the
church, she hates going and we haven't exactly been having a
Mormon courtship, BUT she wants a Temple wedding and to be
sealed for tie and all eternity. After reading your note I
am beginning to get an idea of just how much trouble I've
gotten into. If you don't want to talk about it I under-
stand but I really would like to hear more about what you
went through.

for now call me

Blaze

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 2:13 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/25 10:28 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: BLAINE DICKERSON (WJTF45A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

I usually just browse through this area of the board. I
never have anything positive to add so I remain quiet rather
than involve myself in religious discussions. But speaking
as a bona fide Utah born-seminary president-return
missionary EX mormon: any one who has raised questions
conerning THE church's intrusion into your life (and I mean
every segment of your life), your fears are not without->
foundation. Think carefully before jumping into the font.

DBD

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 2:14 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/27 7:43 AM

TO: ALL
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the
water.....

On Monday the faculty of BYU had their annual staff
meeting. Speakers included university president Rex Lee,
and dean of religious education Robert Millet.
I take my text from the front page of the SALT LAKE
TRIBUNE, August 25:

"BYU is the only university 'where the side-by-side study
of restored truth and secular knowledge is not only
recognized as legitimate, but positively encouraged,' Mr.
Lee said.
"'When it comes to matters that really count, therefore,
our range of uninhibited freedom is both broader and richer
that any other institution in the world.'"

However, Mr. Lee then goes on to say that matters that
are considered controversial should not be discussed in
public, but only, as Mr. Millet put it, "among colleagues,
family and friends." Mr. Lee cited a 1991 church press
release that discouraged Mormons from participating in
"independent symposiums on Mormonism" {read: SUNSTONE}.

But, alas, there are some BYU professors, like
anthropology professor David Knowlton and sociology
professor Tim Heaton, who are not comforted by Lee's claims
of academic freedom. They want to be able to participate in
public forums with no fear of suffering a backlash from the
University administration. There is, in fact, a rumor that
BYU will cease to "discourage" participation in the SUNSTONE
symposium, and just ban it outright.

What do you say, Boys and Girls? Does BYU __REALLY__
promote academic freedom? In __ALL__ areas of study? How
free is free? Should we excommunicate all Sunstoners? And
what about Naomi? Oops.....wrong soap opera....

Let me close with another quote from the TRIBUNE:
"...But faculty should not publicly criticize the church
while collecting a BYU paycheck, he [Millet] said.
"'It is not so much a matter of freedom,' Mr. Millet
added, 'as a matter of covenant.'"

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 2:14 PM

\/ St Andrew,
/\ under covenant?

PS I noticed that the TRIBUNE always refered to Lee and
Millet with the title "Mr," never "president" or "dean."
You don't suppose the folk at the SALT LAKE TRIBUNE are
feeling a bit uppity, do you??? Nah, never......

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 5:45 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: ALL
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE
DATE: 08/28/1992

Andy

This is the most Orwellian thing that I've heard about the
Church in a long time. Thanx for bringing these secret
files to our attention. I must admit that I've had reason
to suspect this for some time. Have you heard that the
mission field is a great training ground for the
intelligence agencies? It now seems that the intelligence
agencies are a training ground for a select committee within
the Church which is investigating the "subversive
activities" of its own members. It even sounds Orwellian;
"Strengthening Church Members Committee". How ironic!

Please note that the reference to Section 123 applies to
investigating the enemies of the Church. It does not say
anything about the members. If Big Brethren are using this
scripture as justification for investigating members, they
ought to excommunicate the trouble-makers first! The irony
is that these controversial scholars are often among the
strongest of Mormons. Controversy should NOT be avoided.
Things find resolution eventually, IF they are discussed
openly in a non-coercive atmosphere. It seems like the
watch-word in the big white building is not FAITH but FEAR.

Section 123 does not justify this kind of secret work. If
you read on to verse 6 you will see that the findings of
said committee should be "published to all the world".
Verse 13 goes on to say;
"Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in
bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein
we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven-
These should then be attended to with great earnestness.
Let no man count them as small things; for there is much
which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which
depends on these things."

So much for Grant's argument that this is no big deal. Wo
unto you who saith all is well in Zion. Perhaps Zion
prospers overmuch. Perhaps there are those who will stoop
to dark devices to insure that Zion's prosperity continues.
"Yea, and there shall be many which...seek deep to hide
their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in
the dark." Check out IINE28.

I think it is significant that the symposia are public
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/28/92 5:45 PM

forums. No secrets because they have nothing to hide. "I
will be a light unto them forever, that hear my words."
IINE10;14-5. On the other hand, our beloved BOM (BOMB)
assures us that the works of darkness will all be destroyed.

The Church currently has more secrets than revelations.
Open the archives NOW! ( and these so-called secret files
too! ).

more than torqued

proclus

less than Mister

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/29/92 9:35 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/29 5:15 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Mike:

It isn't just D&C 123.. it's in the Bible.

|v28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the
flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath MADE YOU
OVERSEERS, to feed the church of God, which he hath
purchased with his own blood.
|v29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous
WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.
|v30 Also OF YOUR OWN selves shall men arise, speaking
perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
(NewT:Acts 20:28-30)

And the Book of Mormon:

|v59 For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep
doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and
devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock
doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can,
he will destroy him.
|v60 And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call
after you; and if you will hearken unto his voice he will
bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep; and HE
COMMANDETH you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter
among you, that ye may not be destroyed.
(BofM:Alma 5:59-60)

Mike: What is wrong with using the best tools and methods
available to us in this day to carry out our charge from the
Lord to suffer that no ravenous wolf enter in and destroy
the flock? Today our wolf is a high-tech wolf.

I tell you that these wolves would do no less than use every
latest technology to carry out their purposes. Like
propoganda of all forms, including movies and magazines.

The scripture are BACKING the watchful care of the flock,
and the Apostles surely are the shepards of it.
Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/29/92 9:36 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/29 6:14 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GEORGE RASMUSSEN (FJNN78A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

..But Michael, don't you know that an Orwellian system MUST
operate with Orwellian principles in place? ..And systems
are identified by their principles,..so you are right to be
righteously "tourqued off," but be carefull what file you
end up in and whose committee is assigned the task of keep-
ing tabs on you and your "thoughts"!
...Jesus is Lord! ..+George

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/29/92 10:05 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE
DATE: 08/29/1992

Grant

Of course the flock should be watched over. That is one of
the missions of the Church. DC123 stipulates that the
findings of said committee should be made public. This
stipulation implies the kind of information that should be
collected. If it can't be made public, it should not be in
the files of the Church. This section is no justification
for the kind of cloak and dagger thing that we are talking
about.

get real

proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/30/92 10:13 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/30 9:26 AM

TO: DALE ARMSTRONG (MVJG33A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Dale,
Here's the rub. The Mormon church gets all excited over
the concept of TRUTH. We have TRUTH, 100% TRUTH, and we
have it straight from the source: God.
Scholarship is the pursuit of TRUTH. But scholarship
relies on research, experiment and thought, not revelation.
What happens when scholarship and revelation don't agree
with each other? What happens when a Sociologist makes an
observation, comfirms it with a little research, and his
findings don't make the brethren of the church happy?
Should the sociologist just sort of forget it and find
something else to study? Or should he be allowed to
share the TRUTH that he has found with his fellow
scholars?

If the Mormon church is going to speak so loudly about
the importance of TRUTH, and encourage its members to seek
TRUTH, it must not be putting barriers up to us. Sometimes
TRUTH can be ugly and hairy and make us feel uncomfortable.
But we should not respond to this by setting bounds on study
and saying that we will only allow the search for truths
that are warm and fuzzy.

Growth does not occur without challenge. The truths that
challenge us will help us grow.

But there are some who have followed the course that you
suggest. D Michael Quinn quit his position at BYU when it
became clear that his scholarly pursuits were not in line
with what the brethren of the church approved of. He then
ceased to use the resources of the Mormon Churches
historical office when they asked him to sign a paper that
would, in effect, have allowed the church to censor any
papers that he wrote as a result of research done there.
See the latest issue of SUNSTONE for Quinn's version of this
sad story.

\/ Andrew
/\

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/30/92 10:19 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/30 9:34 AM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Proclus,
Right on! And for Grant's response, yes I get the point,
but wolves are best fought with truth, in the open, and it
would be counterproductive for the shepherd to do his thing
in secret.
The big point is this. NO SECRETS. If the church wants
to keep track of things and people, fine. If they want to
amass a large collection of historical documents and
artifacts, this is also fine. Let them collect and store
whatever information and artifacts they want to. BUT DON'T
HIDE THEM FROM THE REST OF US.

BTW, Mike. R A Wilson makes the observation that the
hiding and control of information is a typical corporate,
control freak, bad boy ploy. It goes hand-in-hand with the
spreading of false information.
But the good guys out there seek to make information
available to all. No secrets.Morm{Thought Police2
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:00 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/30 11:44 AM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: STEVEN CATANZARO (CRHR42A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Andrew;
Interesting facts, these. Ever heard of Thomas Aquinas
College in Ojai, CA? It is one of the 'Great Books'
colleges, where, as admissions director Thomas Susanska
says, the students don't read the latest commentary on
Plato, they read _Plato_. (Other 'Great Books' quadrivium-
based schools include St. John's in Albequerque and N.Y.,
and Columbia, Chicago, and Notre Dame have or are
instituting similar programs, but I digress.) The point is,
I obtained a copy of the Freshman reading list (it is
staggering) and an L.A. Times article on the school. One of
the recent grads said, "At first, it is rather troubling,
because they question EVERYTHING, even the Bible."
(shocking!, questioning THE Book!). Well, why not? Jesus
Himself said "And indeed, which of you here, intending to
build a tower, would not first sit down and work out the
cost to see if he had enough to complete it? Otherwise, if
he laid the foundation and then found himself unable to fin-
ish the work, the onlookers would all start making fun of
him and saying "Here is a man who started to build and was
unable to finish." (Luke 14:28-29)
Of course, my idea is that the (perhaps outmoded?) Mormon
doctrines of priesthood denial for blacks, polygamy, and,
_worst_ of all, the belief expressed by the dicta "as man
is, God once was; as God is, man may become" ,
to say nothing of "Blood Atonement" and the "Adam-God"
theory, all of which were promoted as being 'restorations'
of truth by inspired 'prophets,' won't stand up to much
theological scrutiny. But, that's my opinion; can I say it?

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:02 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/31 10:14 AM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Proclus,

Ah yes. Now I understand.

\/ Andrew,
/\ punk.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:03 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/30 3:00 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Mike:

One more thing-- the D&C 123 scripture speaks about
publishing, but does not stipulate that it should be PUBLIC
at all times! Let me post it here for review:

|v4 And perhaps a committee can be appointed to find out
these things, and to take statements and affidavits; and
also to gather up the libelous publications that are afloat;

|v5 And all that are in the magazines, and in the
encyclopedias, and all the libelous histories that are
published, and are writing, and by whom, and present the
whole concatenation of diabolical rascality and nefarious
and murderous impositions that have been practised upon this
people--
|v6 That we may not only publish to all the world, but
present them to the heads of government in all their dark
and hellish hue, as the last effort which is enjoined on us
by our Heavenly Father, before we can fully and completely
claim that promise which shall call him forth from his
hiding place; and also that the whole nation may be left
without excuse before he can send forth the power of his
mighty arm.
(D&C: Section 123:4-6)

This procedure does not necessarily equate to an event, but
can be done as often as is needed. In the days of Missouri
it was needed immediately! It can happen again. Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:07 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/30 3:00 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Mike:

One more thing-- the D&C 123 scripture speaks about
publishing, but does not stipulate that it should be PUBLIC
at all times! Let me post it here for review:

|v4 And perhaps a committee can be appointed to find out
these things, and to take statements and affidavits; and
also to gather up the libelous publications that are afloat;

This procedure does not necessarily equate to an event, but
can be done as often as is needed. In the days of Missouri
it was needed immediately! It can happen again. Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:07 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/30 3:30 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Proclus:

I welcome a file on me. I am not very ashamed of what I do.
Unless the information in the church's database on the
member's name, ages, callings, etc., is false, then I accept
and welcome such a file.
Do you resent such a file because you are not active in
the church? Do others resent such a file because it may not
be a pleasant picture of themselves?
Nephi said unto his brothers: "I know
that I have spoken hard things against the wicked, according
to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and
testified that they should be lifted up at the last day;
wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it
cutteth them to the very center. (BofM:1 Nephi 16:2)

Now if the file is TRUE, then only the guilty will be mad
about it. Search our souls. Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:08 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/30 3:31 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Proclus:

You call it a cloak and dagger kind of thing, but where is
there any evidence, real or imagined, where the church has
hurt innocent people with this information?

When someone breaks a LAW of the LAND, then the information
IS MADE PUBLIC as you say it should be. D&C 42 has some
guidance on this:

|v84 And if a man or woman shall rob, he or she shall be
delivered up unto the law of the land.
|v85 And if he or she shall steal, he or she shall be
delivered up unto the law of the land.
|v86 And if he or she shall lie, he or she shall be
delivered up unto the law of the land.
|v87 And if he or she do any manner of iniquity, he or she
shall be delivered up unto the law, even that of God.
(D&C: Section 42:84-87)

But for adultery, this is handled within the church. (see
verse 80), indicating that there are different ways to
handle things.

Now in the case of the files...lets discuss this in common
sense terms...in fact, let's concoct a real life example of
how these "files" on people help...(just imagine trying to
keep the information for 9,000,000 people in your head for a
minute, and maybe this won't seem like such a BAD idea...)
If an "enemy" or "wolf in sheeps clothing" commits an act,
publicly known about or private, that hurts people, then
wouildn't it be nice to stop the law breaker? Wouldn't
it be nice to have some leads or documented facts about
other types of acts that may be RELATED? The police may have
no leads. A "wolf" WE must be concerned about!
|v59 For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep
doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and
devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock
doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can,
he will destroy him. (BofM:Alma 5:59)
Spiritually speaking, we are talking about wolves devouring
or killing the flock. A good shepard will do all that they
can to battle the wolf, and protect the flock. If they can
help the Police to get the wolf when they wreak havoc on the
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:08 PM

Saints, then where is the cloak and dagger in this?
It is a form of self defense! It is according to the laws
of the land.
Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:09 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/31 10:11 AM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Grant,
Let us not confuse common membership records with a
separate set of files which, it has been alledged by the
SUNSTONE participant who started this kettle boiling, are
SECRET and are used to INTIMIDATE. Please note that the
church press release did not refute this man's claims. All
it did was justify the keeping of the files, and leave the
question of intimidation hanging.

It would have left me feeling better if the First
Presidency response had been more specific. Heck, if
Proclus publicly accused me of some terrible crime, like
making moves on Mrs. Proclus, I would issue a public denial
that would leave no question that I was innocent of that
crime. I wouldn't mumble, moan and then quote some
scripture that could be seen as some sort of a
self-justification for having done what I was accused of.
Unless of course Proclus was right. {Howdy, Julie!!! >>>>
Keeping Mike out of trouble????}

NO MORE SECRETS.

\/ Andrew, pure
/\ as New York snow.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:09 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/31 10:14 AM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Grant,
"...publish to all the world..." sounds pretty darned
public to me.

\/ Andrew
/\

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:10 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/31 1:36 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: SANDRA WATSON (RSPN32A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Sorry. . .just reading through and I must say, this is an
odd way for a RELIGION to act! Coming from a long line of
Methodists as I do, I don't understand using secret files of
information against Church members! Loosely interpreted,
the Methodist position is-"Here's what we believe and why we
believe it. If you can accept that and live it day-by-day,
then please join us. If you can't, then find a spiritual>>
home that you can accept, and God bless you!" But, secret
files--I don't think so! Only paranoid governments and
corporations with proprietary info and patents keep files on
how their 'participants' live--not churches!
And since I'm already sticking my nose in here in what has
been a parochial discussion so far, I have another question
to ask : if everything is hunky-dorey with the LDS, why are
there always writers or groups of writers popping up with
less-than-flattering books and articles? I mean, when was
the last time you read an 'expose' of the Presbyterian
church? Using the same logic, it was Reagan's, not Ford's>>
kids who wrote unflattering books. I guess I mean that,
although the writers may have exaggerated their greivances,
there must have been an underlying "unwellness" that
provoked them to write at all. Sort of where there's smoke,
there's fire. Unhappy church members and unhappy children
don't just burst forth, full-blown; they've grown that way
over the years. Why?
If you choose to answer, please do so in your OWN WORDS!
Don't quote scripture; rote quotes only take the place of
real thinking. Say what YOU think, not what someone hund-
reds and thousands of years ago tho't. Sandy

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:11 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/31 6:01 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Andrew:

Publish to all the world sounds pretty public to me also.
What it does not define is WHEN. And how often. How many
times it would be necessary to do so.

Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:12 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/31 6:01 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Andrew:

Publish to all the world sounds pretty public to me also.
What it does not define is WHEN. And how often. How many
times it would be necessary to do so.

Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 08/31/92 9:12 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 08/31 6:01 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Andrew:

Publish to all the world sounds pretty public to me also.
What it does not define is WHEN. And how often. How many
times it would be necessary to do so.

Grant

---------------------------------------------------------------

STEVEN

It may be presumptuous for you to assume that the Mormon teachings "won't stand up to much theological scrutiny." Mormons have a rich and well developed theology which thousands, maybe millions of people find intellectually satisfying and rewarding. Consider that it has survived persecution, migration, and 150 years of intellectual refinement. You ought to give it some serious study before you make reckless statements like that.

heritage

proclus

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Grant

We are not talking about membership records. Don't bring up the membership records. They are irrelevant to this discussion. We are talking about secret files. It is a kind of clandestine information gathering. The Church refuses to admit it even exists. I do not resent the Church's records of my name, age and what callings that I have held. Your claim is that my resentment could be somehow be related to one of my many shortcomings (real or imagined). This claim is petty and diversionary. The truth of my argument is, of course, independent of my behavior. The Church's conduct should stand on its own. It should stand the light of day. It does not affect the truth of the Gospel.

These files are kept on people who have an academic opinion which currently differs from the currently Church-approved version of history. It has nothing to do with the kind of criminality that your wolf and police argument implies. These people are not criminals. They will never be arrested. They are among our nations finest minds. One way or another, they have a right to air their views. This is America, darnit. get real

It is wonderful that you should bring our Saviour's example into this discussion. His conduct was certainly beyond reproach. Listen to his words:

"I will utter things which have been kept secret." (Mat 13:35)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither anything hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." (Mark 4:22)

"Knock, and it shall be opened unto you."(Mat 7:7)

"I spake openly to the world; I have ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews resort; and IN SECRET I HAVE SAID NOTHING. Why askest thou me? Ask them that heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said. And when He had thus spoken, one of the officers that stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying , "Answerest thou the priest so?" Jesus answered him, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?" (Jn 18:20)

Jesus said nothing to Pilate because his deeds spoke for themselves. No apology; He was beyond reproach. Similarly, these scholars have spoken openly. Their opinions are a matter of public record in peer reviewed journals. Their seminars are public events. This does not justify the kind of "hidden hand tactics" that the Church is employing against them.

"Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness." (Luk 22:52)

Do you suppose that it is a good thing that the Church is sneaking around collecting information about us in secret files. It is ridiculous to assert that this resembles Christ-like behavior. Whose behavior do you suppose that it really resembles? The reality is that at some point in time all of the Church records and archives are going to opened to public view. It is wrong for the Church to hold records which have been clandestinely collected and cannot be made public. In the long run, it will harm the gospel cause. The gospel is true. The Church ought to be honest and up front with us.

Open the archives now!

proclus
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/01/92 10:59 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 9:45 AM

TO: SANDRA WATSON (RSPN32A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Sandy,
Our current dilemma finds its roots in the problem called
"History." Mormons consider the early history of our church
to be important, a subject to be studied by all. But, alas,
there are many things in Mormon history that a not all that
rosy. In fact some of them are downright ugly.
This is where division arises. The leadership of the
church do not want the members to lose faith. To this end,
they promote a version of Mormon history that shows only the
positive: a sanitized history.
Scholars, on the other hand, want to write about a
history that is accurate. Non-sanitized history.
This puts the scholars and the leaders at odds. And one
way the leaders fight their battle is to close church
archives to "unfriendly" researchers. Some parts of the
archives are closed to ALL researchers. Another way to keep
a lid on the ugly parts of our history is to intimidate
scholars who don't "go with the flow." Or so it has been
alledged.

Some Mormons, like St Andrew The Dogmaphobe and Proclus
the Neoplatonic Wannabe, feel that they are big enough boys
to take their history without a sugar coating. We feel that
unvarnished TRUTH, no matter how ugly it may be at first
glance, and no matter how many church members or potential
converts it will turn away, is still less harmful to the
Mormon church than the pabulum that we have been spoon-fed
through the years.
Of course there are other, smaller problems that
continue to pit the leaders and the scholars against each
other. Policy, doctrine, how to get a North American church
to expand onto other societies, etc, etc, etc.

And then there are some Mormons who just have to have
something to gripe about. Anything.
But I wouldn't know any of these people........

\/ Andrew
/\

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/01/92 11:02 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 9:48 AM

TO: SANDRA WATSON (RSPN32A)
FROM: DALE ARMSTRONG (MVJG33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Sandy-- As someone who was raised in a Methodist family, I
think you may have conveniently overlooked all the past
criticism of Methodism, including Methodists criticizing
each other. It seems, by your line of reasoning, that if
someone is critical, then there must be some guilt
somewhere. If so, then the Methodists, Presbyterians,
Catholics and all others are guilty of something. Andrew--
Your point is well-taken in the earlier note (NMPR) about
the difference between criticism and sharing knowledge.
That's one of the main reasons I never much cared for the
sheriff on my county courthouse beat. The chief deputy
never criticized his sheriff, and I could respect that. But
the chief deputy also (illegally) hid police reports from
reporters, and I'm sure he did it with full knowledge of the
sheriff. That, I couldn't tolerate.

--Dale in Blue Springs, MO

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/01/92 11:02 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 10:09 AM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

This all sounds a lot like the Stasi in East Germany. Do
good Mormons, in your opinion and experience, inform on one
another to the Church Police?

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/01/92 11:03 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 9:18 AM

TO: ALL
FROM: CINDY CARMACK (KGWK16C)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

If the Mormon church is true, why would it be afraid of
"wolves?" Wouldn't faith sustain the church? What is the
church AFRAID of?

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/01/92 11:04 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KGWK16C
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE
DATE: 09/01/1992

Cindy

I ask myself this question every day.

thanx

proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 7:34 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 11:08 AM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Grant,
To your first note: But in this case the church DID
choose to respond. And they responded badly, in my opinion.
The First Presidency chose to respond, via a press release,
to a specific person, over specific allegations. They
neither confirmed nor denied the first charge {secret
files}, but merely quoted scripture. And the second charge
{intimidation} was simply left begging. All they had to say
was "No. We don't do that."

They never said it, Grant.

To your second note: You ask "When?" I say "Now!"
You ask "How often?" I say "As often as it takes." And I
feel that the 123rd section of the D&C justifies my
sentiment. But then we heretics are often known to "wrest
the scriptures to our own destruction."
>>>>>>>
And now that we have hashed this subject out, I move that
we proceed to another danger that may prove far more
destructive to the church than "Secret Files" or even the
rabble that congregate under the SUNSTONE banner....

************************************************************
* Green Jello Salad continues to be served at Ward dinners.*
************************************************************

Will the persecutions of the Saints never cease???? \/A
/\M

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 7:43 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 2:43 PM

TO: ALL
FROM: STEPHEN ESCOBEDO (KRTN92A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

I'va been clandestinly monitoring this board for some time
now, and have watched an interesting thing take place.
First, there was some mention of "secret" files. These
files were first thought to contain personal info on
disgruntled Church members. Now the rumor has evolved to
the point where these files contain dirt on all of the
supposed Mormon intellegensia and Prodigy members, and that
these files will be used to suppress, silence, and purge
these members of the alternate voice into becoming either
snow-white lambs or mutton. Remember, none of us know for
sure if these files even exist!
I've met the man (Eugene England) who took it upon himself
to go public with this great speculation. He spoke in a
class of mine once, and gave a piece of advice that I'll
pass on to you. If you are worried about these files, and if
you want to know if there is a file being kept on you, write
to either the First Presidency or a member of the Quorum of
Twelve. According to Professor England, the Brethren are
very good about responding to letters. If it just so
happens that there are such files, and that yours is one of
them, ask about the contents. If it turns out that these
files are a myth, then there is nothing left to worry about.
You aren't going to get anything done by writing notes like
"Open the files NOW" on this lone BB. If you really want to
know, go to the source.
Now that I've said my piece, I'll duck back behind my
all-seeing monitor and spy on you all some more.
Secretively Yours,
Stephen

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 7:46 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 2:54 PM

TO: CINDY CARMACK (KGWK16C)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

The Mormon cult is afraid that conversions will slow down--
and that some Mormons will "lose their testimonies"--if the
facts about Mormon history and certain dealings get out to
the public at large. They want to present themselves as a
collection of plaster saints. It's a shame.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 7:54 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KKFF32B
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE
DATE: 09/02/1992

Sorry Elizabeth

Your assertion that the Church files contain only membership
info assumes that you know all the contents of all the
Church files. It is just as speculative as the proposition
of Mormon Secret Police. The Church did not deny that
secret files exist. In fact, they gave scriptural support
for the fact that they DO indeed exist.

skeptically

proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 7:55 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/01 5:05 PM

TO: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
FROM: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

There ARE no "Church Police." The only information kept in
files on Church members is their membership information:
name, current address, date of birth, date of baptism, names
of spouse and children (if any), marriage date. That's it.
Good grief, where do you people GET this stuff? It's
laughable!

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 9:24 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: KRTN92A
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE
DATE: 09/02/1992

STEPHEN

Nice observations. Deep in my paranoid soul I know that
you were talking only about me. May I ask; Were you
speaking with an alternative voice or otherwise?

Seriously though, there are several obstacles to your direct
approach. First, we are discouraged from bothering Big
Brethren with little trivialities. We are encouraged to
speak to our local authorities about any problems that we
might have. Second, what incentive is there for them to
reveal their big files to little us. (did I say seriously?)
The Church is known to be withholding alot of information on
a variety of subjects.

Third, your argument is similar with Grant's, ie; any
inordinate amount of interest in these alleged files must be
due to some personal problem on the part of the interested
party. We have already dealt with this condescending and
diversionary tactic. It completely ignores the argument
that it may not be right to collect this kind of files on
members at all, at all. Also, if it is allright to collect
the files (big if), are they being used in a right way.
Members are supposed to be ethical creatures. Why do they
have such problems facing these kinds of ethical issues.

I did not say, "Open the files NOW". I said, "Open the
archives now!". The existence of closed archives, unlike
secret files, in the Church is nearly an objective reality.
Perhaps we have found a pattern of secrecy in Church, and
perhaps not. I am saying that there is now enough evidence
to support the former. Another example is the withholding
of Hinkley's journal during the Hofmann affair. I find the
practice repulsive, reactionary, and counter-productive to
the Gospel cause. The gospel train is rolling into the
nineties. It is time for the administrators to jump on or
off.

Dinosaurs! Fess up or we will eat your eggs! We will cook
your ham! proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 1:18 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 11:21 AM

TO: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
FROM: CINDY CARMACK (KGWK16C)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Personally, I wouldn't want to belong to a church that told
me what to think. But it's a free country. Except behind
the Zion curtain.Morm{Thought Police3
====================
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 1:20 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 11:52 AM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEVEN CATANZARO (CRHR42A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Michael, syncretist;

Yes, there certainly seem to be 'gods' and 'lords' in
plenty, still for me there is one God, the Father, from whom
all things come and for whom we exist; and there is one
Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things come and through
whom we exist. If I'm a chauvanist, what do you make of
Jesus the Christ? Said He, "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the
Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me."
(John 14:6)?

And, why not 'fundamentalist' instead of chauvanist? Yet its
perhaps interesting that in most fields of human endeavour
'fundamentalism' is not a pejorative term, but rather a
commendation. The Dodgers and Cowboys used to be praised as
solid fundamental teams, liberals and conservatives all
appeal to fundamental rights and fundamental truths, etc.,
scientists, artists, musicians, etc., all recognize the im-
port of certain fundamental 'laws' or principles. Yet in
religion, taking Jesus Christ at His word is somehow
'intolerant', 'chauvanistic', 'exclusionary', or any of the
other fashionable buzz-words. Ryne Sandberg may not be the
most thrilling ballplayer to watch, but if I was a pitcher,
I would surely rejoice to see the ground balls heading in
his direction.

Sincerely, (and with my head down and eye on the ball;
watching for the bad hops)
Steve - purist
By the way, you're right; the Bible isn't our only source
for theological truth. Thomas Aquinas, for instance, fairly
well demolished the idea that God was a material entity
made up of matter and form, and it remained practically dead
until its startling revivification in the mid-nineteenth
century. Do you suppose Joseph Smith read Thomas Aquinas? Or
was he too, um, chauvanistic?

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/02/92 1:31 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 9:27 AM

TO: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Elizabeth, if you'll forgive the source--
The Mormon hierarchy has ADMITTED that they're keeping
secret files on their membership. It was in last Saturday's
New York Times.
(Who KNOWS what sort of files they're keeping on Stubborn,
Sarcastic Gentiles? )

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 0:01 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 3:56 PM

TO: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

What is the ratio between elderly Mormons and young Mormons?
Is the church membership basically gerians...or at least
getting there?

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 0:03 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 8:16 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: DAN JOHNSON (HHVD96A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Michael, for 'biblical inerrancy' read 'politically
correct.' The largest truth we can discover about the
Fundamentalist was cry of 'biblical inerrancy' is that it
has almost always constitues a frightening alienation of
church life. The root of the problem is the fact that
fundamentalists deal with the real difficulites of
differences in faith and life by deeming as non-Christian
the bodies and the people who do not agree with them. The
problem is formed by the absolute and overweening certainty
possessed by fundamentalists that their own form of religion
is absolutely and uniquely right.
To paraphrase Ellen M. Rosenberg, fundamentalists can hold
together only with a core belief structue of extraordinary
generality and ambiguity. The Bible fills this need. It
becomes a projective test, a protean Rorscharh. The Book
has become a taslisman.
What Fundamentalists cannot understand is that their
attempted literalization of Scripture is itself a giant
metaphor. A conversion of the Bible into a statue or an
icon. One of the great ironies of Protestant history is
that the exaltation of Scripture, which in the seventeen
century endowed Protestants with freedom from institutional
constraints and with spiritual autonomy, has become, in the
late twentieth century, the agency for depriving the same of
their Christian liberty. What is left is the Bible as
physical object, limp and leather, a final icon or magical
talisman.
When you read the postings of the fundamentalists remember
that they write about their own dogmatic social, political,
cultural, moral and even economic convictions, and biblical
texts simply are quoted, with frenetic abandon, whether or
not they in any way illustrate or even approach the areas
where the convictions center. They are quoted also as
though they interpreted themselves and were prefectly
transparent in their meanings.

Dan Johnson
3:00 MDT

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 0:04 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 8:19 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEVEN CATANZARO (CRHR42A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Wait a second; did you just say that you, Mike 'Proclus'
Love, were the way, or did I misunderstand your closing? If
you are 'the way', can I ask you a favor? If I send you some
jugs of water, can you turn them into wine for me? I'm
fixing to throw a party this weekend, and even if I pay
postage, you could save me considerable monies!
Of course, the idea that Aquinas has been 'demolished' is,
to say the very least, debatable; but irrespective of your
claim, I made a mistake; Aquinas wasn't the first to
disavow the idea of a corporeal God; Paul was, when he said
we have no right in thinking that the deity looks like
anything that the mind of man can conceive.

So, I'm waiting to hear how Jesus 'may be more of a
syncretist than many people realize.' He did come to seek
and to save that which was lost, and He did have other sheep
to feed. But Jesus Christ is the Way. The time for
asking 'what is truth' has ended. Now the Truth has been
revealed, and 'the truth will set you free.' The hour has
come, and Jesus Christ has been glorified and now has power
over all mankind to give eternal life to all those entrusted
to Him. And eternal life is this; to know YHWH, the only
true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent. The stone that
was rejected by the builders has proved to be the
cornerstone. For of all the names in the world given to men,
this is the only one by which we can be saved. There is one
mediator between God and man, Himself a man, Jesus Christ.
This is God's way, and a most excellent Way it is!
(just kidding about the wine, by the way) .....Steve

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 0:05 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 3:57 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Mike Proclus:

Interesting that I elicited a 6 PAGE PLUS response from you.
I also find it interesting how you are using the
scriptures to denounce the prophets and apostles alleged
actions. Your goat has been got.
Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 0:05 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 4:21 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Proclus:

A long time ago, I seem to recall that you brought up a
discussion about God, and technology. That possibly God did
all that he did by some super modern technology (which I did
not agree to because I believe in the power of faith which
needs no technology)...
My point in bringing this up, is to counter your apparent
disdain at the POSSIBILITY that the church is using
technology to keep track of what they have learned about
people (so that they do not forget).

Tell me, what is evil about technology? Are you sure that
it is not the fear of prejudice and insecurity that drives
the acute concern of this possibility of data files? When
we DON'T KNOW about what others are doing, some of us get
concerned. My question to you, is WHY?
Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 0:06 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 10:00 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

An "unpleasant feeling" that something MIGHT be true is not
a fact. It's paranoia.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 0:07 AM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/02 8:30 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: STEPHEN ESCOBEDO (KRTN92A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Michael,
No, I wasn't talking "only about you". Thats why I wrote
this to all. I've had the opportunity to hang out with the
some of the "Big Brethren", and I'll have you know that I'm
taller than most of them. Don't be intimidated by their
calling. If you don't feel that you can contact them, then
why don't you try BYU Professor Eugene England and find out
where he got his information from. If you felt that I was
resorting to condescending and diversionary tactics in my
post, then EXUUUUUSE ME!! Although I didn't write it with
that intention, after trying to look at it from what I
perceive to be your point of view, all I can say is "if the
shoe fits, wear it".
I don't know who the "dinosaurs" you referred to at the end
of your post are, but you sound pretty bold for someone who
doesn't seem willing to face the only people who can answer
your question. And who are the "we" that are craving eggs
and ham enough to take someone else's?

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:05 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 10:30 AM

TO: CINDY CARMACK (KGWK16C)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Cindy,
"Zion curtain," huh. You haven't been talking to Dan
Jenkins, have you?
I will concur with Mike Love's response to your original
note. But as to the lack of freedom behind the Zion
curtain, we are perfectly free to......
........uh, gotta go. My wife
just told me that there are couple of gentlmen at the door
who need to talk to me about something.

\/ Andrew
/\

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:06 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 10:54 AM

TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Because of church policies on birth control, Mormonism is
flooded with kids, all being taught that Joe Smith was
second only to God Himself.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:07 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 10:54 AM

TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Because of church policies on birth control, Mormonism is
flooded with kids, all being taught that Joe Smith was
second only to God Himself.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:09 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 11:10 AM

TO: CINDY CARMACK (KGWK16C)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

"Behind the Zion curtain!" Yes, good phrase. It's been a
long time since I heard it!
But I have to be careful what I say. I still have
relatives in the Old Country.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:09 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 9:53 AM

TO: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Elizabeth

I see the bluntness of your purely personal attack. How
about responding to our arguments.

paranoia is contagious!
proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:10 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 11:51 AM

TO: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

ESP,
You ask for evidence.
At the recent SUNSTONE symposium, one of the "stoners"
charges that the Church keeps secret files on members of the
intellectual commumity, and that these files are sometimes
used to intimidate.
A short time later, the First Presidency issues a press
release in answer to these charges {DESERET NEWS, August
14, 1992, pages B1 & B2}. They never explicitly confirm or
deny the charge of secret files, but simply quote D&C
123:1-5. This is an obvious justification of the keeping of
files: an admission of guilt. The charge of intimidation is
never answered in the First Presidency press release.
And them's the facts, ma'am.
\/ Andrew,
/\ newsboy.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:11 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 11:12 AM

TO: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Elizabeth,
Yup, I've heard it. It would not be so funny if it were
not true.
I have heard that if you let "Relief Society Green Beans"
sit for a few days, it makes great brick mortar. I have
never been brave enough to try this one out. \/ Andrew
/\

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:11 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 5:39 PM

TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
FROM: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

"Relief Society Green Beans"??? That's a recipe I don't
have! Sounds scary. Our ward pretty much sticks to
cookies and red punch, and of course green jello.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:12 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 11:01 AM

TO: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Elizabeth, I know I have told you at least once, and other
people have told you. Now Read, Mark, Learn, and Inwardly
Digest:
IT WAS IN THE NEW YORK TIMES! And it came from a Reliable
Source. It was in the 8/22 paper, in the first section; you
can probably go to your library and READ it, if you're
really interested. Denial won't make it go away.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:13 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 5:39 PM

TO: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
FROM: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Thank you for the reference; I was getting ready to ask
someone. I certainly will go read it and let you know what I
think at a later date. Deal?
**ESP**

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 6:13 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 10:54 AM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Grant,
You are a good man and a true saint, full of charity and
love, to put up so well with Proclus and me.
So as a reward, and in honor of the fact that it was
those darned SUNSTONE people who started this whole thing, I
dedicate a hymn to you. {stolen from MUSIC AND THE BROKEN
WORD: SONGS FOR ALTERNATE VOICES, Toscano & Grondahl} >>>>>
EACH CARPING SAINT {sung to the tune of EACH COOING DOVE}

In summertime, in August's heat,
In old Salt Lake, they come to meet.
They gather in from all around;
And that's when her-esies abound.

From near and far, Sunstoners come <<[chorus]
To meet at their symposium.
There in the sul-try summer heat
That's where the liberals come to bleat.
In hotel rooms they congregate
To gripe and moan and ventilate.
They gather in from everywhere
And that's when bull dung hits the air.
[chorus]

Each carping saint, each grousing soul,
Can find a place, can have a role.
Each one can tell of pains and woes
And lead ano-ther by the nose.
[chorus]
Every once in while I have to step back and take a good
look at myself, Grant. And what I see is sometimes quite
hilarious. I guess that Paul Toscano, the author of that
little ditty, and a true sunstoner's sunstoner, also does
the same thing.

Ecclesiastical No! Paradoxical
institutional theological
rethorical? allegorical, darnit!!
\/ Andrew,
/\ agent of chaos.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/03/92 7:00 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TO: FKGS58A
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE
DATE: 09/03/1992

Grant

Once again, you missed the point entirely. It has nothing
to do with technology. We are talking about the Church's
clandestine committee which makes files on members. This
practice is contrary to the scriptures, including the very
section that the Church used to justify the practice. The
Church could conceivably use the same technology to make
this information generally available. That is the only
thing that would satisfy me.

disgrace

proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:01 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 7:26 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: ELIZABETH PAGEL (KKFF32B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Didn't mean for my note to be interpreted as a "personal
attack." I apologize.
My point was that I haven't seen any factual "arguments"
about this issue of Secret Files. I have not yet read the NY
Times article but will look it up on my next trip to the
library (hopefully tomorrow). In the meantime, how 'bout
making some factual statements rather than ones of the "no
one can prove it but I've got a feeling it's true" variety?
I'll respond AFTER I've read the NY Times article and done a
bit of research on my own. Okey dokey???

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:02 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/03 9:05 PM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Grant

disgrace

proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:02 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/04 9:42 PM

TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Proclus:

Let's ASSUME that this file is real, that they keep it. For
we don't know this. Do you "take note" of certain
individuals behavior? Tuck it away in your mind? I know I
do. I can't help it. My ears heard it, eyes read it,
whatever. It is stored there, and it is my educated
advantage the next time I deal with that person, because I
know more about them. It doesn't mean I am going to hurt
them. It just means that I know more about them and can deal
more WISELY with them.

Remember, this is all in my own brain.... It's okay there
to keep my file. Of course it is!

So tell me what is evil or wrong if I wanted to extend this?
How has increasing my capability to keep information thrown
me into the evil realm because of technology?
Are you suggesting that it is OKAY if we keep mental notes,
but as soon as we transfer them to a computer that it
becomes evil or wrong?

Well then journals are evil. We write our experiences.
And our journals are personal. Scriptures would have to be
evil too, for 2/3 of the Book of Mormon are NOT translated.
And prophets wrote about both the good and the evil.
Mike, even if it WERE true that some individuals had a
computer assisted journal to help them in their job of
dealing with PEOPLE, why would it be wrong. I fail to see
the REAL reason for concern. It MUST be because of
prejudice or fear that some get excited about it, possibly
in some cases because they think that by another so doing,
that their ability to deceive or harm another is lessened
now. Their edge is gone. Oh well.
Do you think that leaders of the church who have been
"suckered" or deceived in the past could have benefited by
possibly knowing a little about who they are dealing with?

I think so. That's why I think the idea has much merit, even
though we don't KNOW it even exists.
In a day when SO MANY things are complex, and the
opportunities for deceptions and other evil acts are on the
rise, who would take exception to a method that will help to
curtail it, except it be the enemy themself?
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:03 PM

Making our minds public? Making our thoughts vocal? Is not
this a personal choice? Well, our thoughts whether still in
our head, or transfered to paper or disk are still PERSONAL
and have no obligation to be made public, NOW! The only
thing that is public is the *P* stuff...
Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:03 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/05 10:30 AM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

I'm sure the Stasi had the same rationale for keeping THEIR
records of people. Just so they'd know how to deal with
them.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:04 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/05 12:25 PM

TO: ALL
FROM: C MARSTON (JR) (KXBN51A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

I have read through all of the posts from 0829 to 0904. I
meant to reply to a few of them but always got hit by the
NMPR restriction. And since I am so lazy and hate typing in
"TO" id numbers, I let them all pass. Now, I think I will
write a single letter and address several people and ideas.
This will probably confuse everybody...but hey, we're in the
right area for that.
First to Elizabeth: I am very familiar with RS Green Beans,
green punch and jello. However, I do want a scriptural
reference that RS Potatoes (Diced potatoes with Cream of
Mushroom soup...covered with cornflakes and generally with
something green...like french cut beans...then baked) are
not proscribed for human consumption along with alcohol and
tobacco.
Secondly ESP and Grant: I am afraid that they have us on
this one. The Sunstone Symposium speaker did mention what
was termed "secret" files. The Church did issue a statement
mentioning scriptual basis. Andrew mentioned the passage. I
did not note it.
However, everyone seems to be missing the point that
while the church did say that files may be kept on those
that spoke out against the church...opening it up to
ridicule...that these files had not, and would not, be used
to intimidate or persecute the member. They would be
available, if requested, should the member be called in by
local authorities. It was my impression that the local
authority would have to request it. No action would
originate, directly or indirectly, from Salt Lake.
Kerry: A careful reading of the passage you quoted seems
to say to me, and heaven only knows I bow to your greater
scriptural understanding on many occasions, that they would
be made public as needed to couteract distortions or false
teachings about the church. I don't see any "command" to
publish them...just a statement that they might be
published.
In many cases, concern for the particular situation of
the member or the circumstances may warrent that disgression
and confidentality be maintained.
Mike: Yes, this is a free country and our belief in
agency means that you are free to think whatever you wish.
However, everybody has to be someplace so we have worldly
governments. But in this country you do not "have" to be a
member of any given religion, party or group...with the
possible exception of tax payer and union member in a closed
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:05 PM

shop.
In our faith, the question really comes down to do you
support and sustain the authorities. If not, then it is
better for your peace of mind and the church that ways be
parted. Marie taught us this recently.
But as a member, if I start making statements that "the
Church is wrong here or over there." then that carries
extra weight in the world. The Tanners' writing carries
extra weight because a good portion of it came from
"inside." The church has a right to prepare itself to
counter any such actions. In our information age that means
files, papers and other "proof" for when the church is
hauled into court. Does this preclude us from having
differing opinions? I don't think so. I, too, would like to
see the archives more accessable. But after the Tanners and
Hoffman I can understand the restrictions. But I would
rather have my membership in good shape with a closed
archive than vice versa. I sustain the leadership. CFM

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/08/92 11:11 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/07 11:32 AM

TO: C MARSTON (JR) (KXBN51A)
FROM: MELISSA WUNDERLY (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Au Contraire, mon Frere!!!
I've been absent for a while, but I think I have a clue.
And I don't think I could disagree more, Charlie. You said
in "our faith it comes down to whether one supports or
sustains one's leaders" (paraphrased). If I've learned
anything, it has been to be true to one's self. I've been
counseled from the very start (as a Mormon) to pray about
what leaders say and advise. I assume this is advised
because of the fallibilities of people, not because
everything that falls from a leader's lips will be confirmed
as true and there is no fear of disharmony. This reminds me
of the time, my young adult representative (my leader and
frequent date) told me God said I was supposed to marry him.
[Of course, I really only mention that hoping you'll smile.]
A more serious example is when leaders tell big whoppers to
"motivate and inspire." Anyone come to mind? If you'd known
the stories were lies, wouldn't you feel morally obligated
to get the guy in line somehow? I think God is the
only personage we ought to be handing our nose-rings to, and
personally, I think, He is more interested in our pulling
our own nose-rings. And certainly we shouldn't wear
blinders. Everything spoken by a mere human, no matter how
grand the calling, ought at the very, very, very least be
subject to thinking and prayer.
As for the topic at hand, secret files used to intimidate,
if it is true, is, again, at the very least unbecoming of an
institution whose main business should be the Gospel of
Jesus Christ. It may be much worse than unbecoming; it may
be downright immoral.
To invite someone to leave the faith because they have the
courage to point out something they think is a problem or
wrong is questionable, no I think it's crazy, actually. Vive
la difference!! And thank goodness, that there are those
among us who are willing to take some heat and ask the
daring questions. How else do we know anything except we
ask? At least such a policy was good enough for Moroni in
the BoM.

Contrary, Melissa w/nose-ring in handMorm{Thought Police4 [2]
------------------------
will read it.
But for the short version: 1] BY taught it. Period.
2] We no longer believe it. 3] Bruce R. breaks the ninth
commandment in giving his "explanation" of BY's words.
4] Either BY was wrong, or the modern church is wrong.

As for me, I remain pleasantly and blissfully uncommitted
on this doctrine. I just keep it filed away as a way of
turning up the fire under the backsides of Mormons who
become too linear-dogmatic for me. Cruel, but fun.

\/ Andrew
/\
PS I vote for Los Hermanos. The owner used to be my home
teaching companion, and it has a great view of the Provo
Tabernacle and {*alas*} the NuSkin building.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/14/92 10:52 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/12 11:08 AM

TO: MELISSA WUNDERLY (GKBD00B)
FROM: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Melissa:

With the knowledge that there are worlds without number,
that is an awful lot. Imagine not 50 or 100 worlds, but
trillions of them, all under God's hand.

Can you imagine this vast number of worlds? I'm doing so
right now, and the thought of God being in tune with the ONE
WORLD is enough to boggle the mind. Now extend this
trillions of times.

I believe that God delegates.

I believe that the Holy Ghost delegates (I in fact believe
that it is actually the presence of good spirits that make
us feel good and close to God when we do things right, and
not the LITERAL presence of the 3rd member of the Godhead.)
I believe there is a large force of righteous and loyal
spirits under the direction of the Holy Ghost, who is under
the direction of Jesus Christ, who is under the direction of
the Father.

With that in mind, I believe that Adam helped to create this
earth. I believe that many other great an noble spirits led
in this task. I believe that they led the way with legions
of spirits helping them in this creation process.

What of the other worlds without number? There was an Adam
and Eve for each one of them. With so much going on, it
makes sense to me that each of those great and noble spirit
pairs who made up the many Adams and Eves for the worlds
wothout number, would answer to Jesus Christ.

So when Brigham Young says that Adam is a God, he is not
mistaken. Gods create worlds, do they not? And in
identifying our father Adam as the God to which we have
something to do, he also is not necessarily mistaken, for it
is possible that our father Adam has ultimate and direct
responsibility for the mortal and spiritual affairs of this
earth (such as the one that presides over all prophets).
When we prepare for the second coming of the Lord, it will
be father Adam who will preside at that great conference
that will precede the 2nd coming, at which all prophets past
and present, resurrected and still mortal will be present.
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/14/92 10:52 PM

So what is Adam now, if he is resurrected to a Celestial
Glory? Is he not a God? Of course he is. And is he not
the God from which we will be directly presided over? Of
course he is.

So was Brigham Young wrong? Not if you believe that godhood
is possible and is a true doctrine.

But remember that Adam is still answering to Jesus Christ,
who is answering to the Father.

Patriarchal order. Worlds without number.

Grant

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/14/92 10:53 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/12 12:05 PM

TO: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
FROM: MELISSA WUNDERLY (GKBD00B)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

"ONE!"

Intimidatingly, Melissa--amazon guerrilla

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/14/92 10:54 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/12 12:19 PM

TO: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A)
FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Hi Steph!

The thought has crossed my mind. Wait, what is that stuck
to my phone. Hang on there is someone at the door...

Grant?
proclus

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/14/92 10:55 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/12 1:57 PM

TO: GRANT JOHNSON (FKGS58A)
FROM: STEVEN CATANZARO (CRHR42A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Grant;

I know what Brigham Young would think of your redaction,
I'll bet. He would say, "How much unbelief exists in the
minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular
doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed
unto me -namely, that Adam is our father and our God."
Grant, what does the word 'is' mean?

(See, M., how poor Aristotle keeps taking it on the chin?)

I agree with A.X.M, on this point. Brigham Young was plainly
wrong. But, being the dogmaphile that I am, I deduce that
the station Brigham Young was tuned into was not YHWH, the
voice of the One Eternal God of Israel, and as such, he was
a false prophet. (c.f. Deut. 13: 1-6)

Sincerely, Steve

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/14/92 10:56 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/12 4:06 PM

TO: MELISSA WUNDERLY (GKBD00B)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Is that a monobrow? Or a brow as in forehead?
(You're right--monobrows ARE intimidating!)

C.S.T.

pass the tweezers

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/19/92 9:37 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/15 8:37 PM

TO: ALL
FROM: KERRY SHIRTS (CWXH30A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

May I put my two cents worth in here? I haven't read Grant's
note, perhaps I haven't gone back far enough. I've read many
replies that seem to say Grant thinks it bad to question.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But, and I say this without reading
Grant's note so I may be out of context here, everytime...I
mean each and everytime I hear this idea of unquestioning
obedience (which nowadays means NO QUESTIONS, THINKING, or
DEBATING, but just shut your mouth following what is said in
faith, I have to revert to one of the most powerful examples
I have ever read. Hugh Nibley's article, "Beyond Politics"
is a MUST read in this type of discussion. The ideas are
his, I'll paraphrase to save space. If we decide to do
things God's way, will not all discussion cease? I mean who
is knowledgable enough to discuss (that is doubt and hence
question) God? Who in their right mind would disagree with
Him? But remember right in the very beginning, in the
Pre-Existence, there was a discussion, some presented one
plan, some another. Satan was NOT cast out for disagreeing
but for attempting to resort to violence once he saw he was
outvoted. Ah....interesting...Both Abraham and Ezra dared,
humbly and apologetically, but still stubbornly to protest
what they considered in their limited understanding unkind
treatment of some of God's children. They just could not see
or understand why God allowed certain things to occur. So He
patiently explains the case, and then they understood. Enoch
couldn't understand the mass destruction of the flood, he
was stubborn about it. Read Moses 7:44. He was bitter and
wept.He refused...REFUSED to be comforted. God didn't blast
these men when they questioned. He loved them for it! It was
because they were friends of men that they dared question
God about what was harming their friends, thus becoming
friends of God as well!!! THAT IS CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND
HERE.
The Lord was not above discussing matters with the
Brother of Jared, who protested over the problems of the
design of their boats. How would they have light? What kind
of design is this? How on earth can you do this to us??? Did
the Lord strike down this presumptive mere mortal for daring
to disagree??? No. He went ahead and asked what He should
do. Ether 2:23. A discussion with God is not a case of
agreeing or disagreeing. Who can do that? But it is a case
of understanding Him. If we don't we had better ask
questions, and lots of them, and make them tough. The
tougher the better because then we can begin to understand
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/19/92 9:37 PM

just what is going on. What Abraham, Ezra, Enoch, and the
Brother of Jared asked was "WHY?" It is men who love
absolutely monarchies not God. Men always have wanted a King
and God would say no, keep your freeedoms. Keep your rights
to speech and discussion. Politics is a free discussion of
men trying to work things out. It's NOT God's way of govt.
yet, but He is willing to let us try until we have no other
choice but to say "Thy will be done, Oh Lord." For now, we
question and try to learn and try like mad. We have the
examples of the scriptures before us if we'll use them. Hope
this helps.

Kerry A. Shirts

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 09/19/92 9:38 PM

ARTS CLUB
TOPIC: BOOKS/NONFICTION
TIME: 09/16 10:57 AM

TO: KERRY SHIRTS (CWXH30A)
FROM: CS TAYLOR (JGKP33A)
SUBJECT: MORM{ THOUGHT POLICE

Good post, Kerry.
We must all have the freedom to ask "WHY?" without fear of
retribution.

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